Thread 18120710

What modern phenotype is closest to ancient Latins?

>>18120710 (OP)
Italian

>>18120710 (OP)
North Italians

>>18120710 (OP)
What’s up with the nose? It doesn’t really look aquiline

>>18120710 (OP)
Rutuli(routsi-rus), sabines (suebi), likely samnite (suebi) are all ethnically Swedish (routsi=rower suebi is the same name as the country sweden) so they would look like Swedes. Trojan warrior class would have been aryan cimmerian the same as cimbri germans, trojans called their army tutti which is the same word as teuton, umbrians are also cimbri (same word).

>>18120710 (OP)
North Italians and southern French for republican era Romans. South Italians, Jews and Greeks for Imperial era

>>18120747
also estrusci is like the same "rower" routsi word et-routsi so they're swedes too

>>18120716
delusional

>>18120716
>>18120721
>>18120749
I thought you guys were giga autists, far far too vague

>>18120778
cope pigskin larper

>>18120749
>republican era Romans
Wrong. Those samples are almost exclusively from the Iron Age/semi-mythical Roman Kingdom era. Republicans were already East Med admixed in reality.
The proper answer is:
>Italics
North Italians
>Ancient Greeks/Greco-Anatolians
South Italians/Maniots/Aegean islanders
>a mix of both of those groups, which is most likely what people like Caesar, Augustus, etc were in reality, backed up by the fact that Latins claimed Trojan (Anatolian) ancestry. Need more samples to confirm it however
South-Central Italians.

>>18120710 (OP)
There exist many busts and statues of Roman emperors and other people from that time.

>>18120749
This
>>18120861
You maybe onto something, but I'd still wager Norf-Central Italians for early Italics/early Republic

>>18120861
>>18120721
>>18122490
north italians are x1.5 more nordic than italics. spaniards/corsicans are better choice

>>18120735
It's the archetypical greek nose, ideally it goes straight from the forehead, but that's an exceptionally rare phenotype, you can see it in a lot of greek statues

>>18122501
Correct. Now here's what a Roman looks like.

>>18120747
>trojans called their army tutti which is the same word as teuton
Words aren’t even similar. Meanwhile, “to scare” in Albanian is “tueta” and it makes sense since Trojans were originally from the Balkans so the languages are similar.

>>18123253
.

>>18120710 (OP)
>>18120721
>>18120749
I've read somewhere that modern corsicans are actually the closest people to republican romans out there.

>>18120710 (OP)
Ethiopian

>>18120710 (OP)
French, South German (Celtic mixed ones like Bavarians), Spanish and Celtics (Italics were cousins of Celtics so it is not surprising at all).
Ironically Iron Age samples barely overlap with Modern Italians, I will do comparison on basis too and find out why they differ from modern Italians this much.

>>18120749
Correct, there are samples overlapping with North Italy too.
>>18123315
>>18124014
they said Latin, the unga-bunga tribes that migrated into Italy, not natives of Italian peninsula.

>>18124016
if my calculations are correct; modern Italians (at least Lazians) are basically Latin+Greek.

>>18124020
and this is the South-French like sample.
There is also some Levantine-like admixture in modern Italians, since this is Central Italy it can be assumed it is due to imperial era migrations.

>>18124023
The Egyptian Jew is basically a Hellenistic Jew sample and overlaps with Italki and Greek Jews (direct descendants of post-Bar Kokhba immigrants and their Hellene spouses), how did Hellenistic Jews ended up in modern day Egypt?!

>>18122494
He said phenotype. The north Italians regardless of genome have preserved the Italic phenotype more than the terronigs

>>18124023
>There is also some Levantine-like admixture in modern Italians

It's almost zero unless you use heavily mixed Phoenician outliers.

>A genetic study published in Nature Communications in April 2025 examined the remains of 196 individuals from 14 sites traditionally identified as Phoenician and Punic in the central and western Mediterranean. The results suggest that during the earlier stages of the Phoenician colonization, the Punic demographic expansion was primarily driven by the spread of people with Sicilian-Aegean ancestry, while Levantine Phoenicians made little to no genetic contribution to Punic settlements in the central and western Mediterranean. The North African ancestry became widespread only after 400 BCE in the Punic world, suggesting that expanding Carthaginian influence facilitated this spread. However, this was a minority contributor of ancestry in all of the sampled sites, including in Carthage itself.[93]

>>18124048
>Sicilians

You can't really blame them. Levantine female slaves were sold around for the price of a donkey.

>Y-chromosome admixture proportions to the current SSI genetic pool indeed confirm an high paternal contribution from the South-Eastern Mediterranean populations, and particularly from the Balkan Peninsula (∼60%), whereas about 25% of SSI Y-chromosomes can be traced back to North-Western European group. Analogously, although the present-day SSI mtDNA genetic pool is largely shared with the other South-Eastern European populations of the Mediterranean Basin (respectively Balkan and Italian Peninsulas), a remarkable proportion of maternal ancestry (especially if compared with its paternal counterpart) derives from the Levant.

>In fact, whereas the different continental and within continental contributions to the current SSI genetic pool appeared to be more equally distributed on the maternal side (despite a noteworthy contribution of Levantine females), the paternal counterpart appeared to be clearly affected by South-Eastern Mediterranean, mainly Balkan, males.

>A loaf of bread cost roughly half a sestertius, and a sextarius (c. 0.5 L) of wine anywhere from less than half to more than one sestertius. One modius (6.67 kg) of wheat in 79 AD Pompeii cost seven sestertii, of rye three sestertii, a bucket two sestertii, a tunic fifteen sestertii, a donkey five hundred sestertii.[2]

>Female prostitutes were frequently described as characters in Roman literature; however, first-hand accounts of real prostitutes are far more rare.[34] The owner of these prostitutes was called a Leno. The Leno would buy girls (usually from the East) for prices around 600 sesterces to be their slaves.[3] Other prostitutes were forced into work at the brothel as a result of financial crisis and family run institutions. It was quite rare for a prostitute to make enough money to escape working at the brothel.[6]

>>18124016
Now this is confusing, what distinguishes those samples from Early Republic Romans that cluster with Norf Italians?

>>18124016
Italics and Etruscans took the Southern route, hence the high amount of Alpine haplos like G2a. Gauls have Atlantic haplogroups from France and Illyrians/Daunians/Picentes have Danube haplos like J2b.

>Genome-wide studies of Iron Age individuals from Tuscany and Lazio show that Etruscans were genetically similar to their Latin neighbors, despite linguistic differences. Both groups carried Steppe-related ancestry, introduced via migrations in the 2nd millennium BCE, likely associated with the Bell Beaker culture.[57] The large majority of Etruscan males belonged to the haplogroup R1b-M269 (75%), particularly R1b-P312 and its derivative R1b-L2 (descendant of R1b-U152), while mtDNA was dominated by haplogroup H.[57] Overall, Iron Age Etruscans from central Italy could be modelled as deriving 50% of their ancestry from Central European Bell Beakers (represented by Germany Bell Beaker), with around 25-30% steppe ancestry. Two Etruscan samples were modelled as having 80% Germany Bell Beaker ancestry.[57]

>A genetic study published in 2022 examined DNA extracted from three necropoleis: Ordona, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo, in the region of Apulia in southern Italy, which have been linked to the Daunian region during the Iron Age. Most samples from Ordona and Salapia date to the Daunian period and some samples from San Giovanni Rotondo date more broadly to the Iron Age. Paternal haplogroups of seven Iron Age samples were identified. Two paternal lineages of the Iron Age samples belong to J-M241, one of them could be further processed as J-L283+. Two Iron Age samples belonged to R-M269, one further designated as Z2103+ and one to I-M223.[58]

>Two main paternal haplogroups are observed among the Picenes, namely R1b-M269/L23 (58 % of the total) and J2-M172/M12 (25 % of the total), which may represent direct links with Central Europe and the Balkan Peninsula.[88]

>>18124057
Those are Celtic outliers.

>>18124061
>Laffranchi et al. 2024 examined 12 samples of Cenomani Cisalpine Gauls from Verona who lived between the 3rd and 1st centuries BCE.[60] The five examples of individual Y-DNA extracted were determined to belong to either haplogroup I2a1b1a1b1 or subclades of R1b1a1b (R-M269). The 12 samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to various subclades of haplogroup H, T, U, K, J and X.[60] Ancient samples from the central European Bell Beaker, Hallstatt and Tumulus cultures belonged to these haplogroups as well.[61][62][63]

>>18124064
Latins and Celts are basically cousins in haplogroup, autosomal, linguistics and phenotype; holy shit.
Rome-Gaul war was a cousin war, kek.

>>18124053
A Quick recap. Sicilian Greeks ousted Levantines from the Phoenician colonies in the Western and Central Mediterranean sea.

Nafrican DNA spread through females as none of the over 100 tested Punic has a Nafri Y-dna haplogroup.

>A genetic study published in PNAS in October 2023 examined the remains of 54 individuals from eighth- to fifth-century BC from the Greek Sicilian colony of Himera. The results suggest that the civilian population of Himera and the surrounding regions form a homogenous group, and are largely descended from the earlier Middle and Late Bronze Age Sicilians with minor admixtures from Iberia, the Caucasus, the Balkans and the Italian peninsula. In contrast, the main group of Himeraean soldiers appear as intermediate between the local Sicilian population and a group related to Bronze Age Aegeans, suggesting that many soldiers were plausibly the descendants of the Greek colonizers of Sicily and that intermarriage between Greeks and Sicilian locals was practiced. The rest of the Himeraean army was made up of mercenaries with ancestral origins in northern Europe, the Steppe, and the Caucasus.[86]

>A genetic study published in Nature Communications in April 2025 examined the remains of 196 individuals from 14 sites traditionally identified as Phoenician and Punic, including ones in Sicily and Sardinia. The results suggest that during the earlier stages of the Phoenician colonization, the Punic demographic expansion was primarily driven by the spread of people with Sicilian-Aegean ancestry, while Levantine Phoenicians made little to no genetic contribution to Punic settlements in the central and western Mediterranean. The North African ancestry became widespread only after 400 BCE in the Punic world, suggesting that expanding Carthaginian influence facilitated this spread. However, this was a minority contributor of ancestry in all of the sampled sites, including in Carthage itself.[87]

>>18124073
Gauls had Bell Beaker admixture hence their Nordic looks.

>"The early Romans, judging from the busts of their descendants in the days of Augustus, and of descriptions, were not very tall, as a rule, but were often of heavy body build. Their skulls were flattish on top, and rounded on the sides, like those of the Kelts. The facial features included the well-known "Roman" nose, which may have been partly derived from an Etruscan source. On the whole, the well-known sculptures of Caesar, Augustus, and others, although not reliable from the standpoint of accurate measurement, indicate that a mesocephalic to brachycephalic head form was admired. Their facial type is not native to the Mediterranean basin, but is more at home in the north [i.e. Alpine territory]. Nevertheless, the Romans considered the Kelts who invaded Italy tall and blond; hence the blondism of the Romans, including rufosity, must have been in the minority."

>>18124077
Moors hardly left any DNA traces in Sicily.

>A genetic study published in PubMed in July 2024 analyzed burials at the site of Segesta to investigate the interactions between Muslim and Christian communities during the Middle Ages in Sicily. While individuals buried in the Christian cemetery resemble modern populations from Eastern, Southern, Southeastern and Western Europe, showing continuity with the ancient Sicilian Iron Age individuals, and carry uniparental haplotypes primarly found today in Western Europe, the individuals buried in the Muslim cemetery carry haplotypes associated with North African and the Eastern Mediterranean populations and in genome-wide analysis fall within the space represented by Europe, the Near East and North Africa, except for one male who falls within the diversity of sub-Saharan African populations. In conclusion, the biomolecular and Isotopic results suggest the Christians remained genetically distinct from the Muslim community at Segesta while following a substantially similar diet. Based on these results, the authours suggest that the two communities at Segesta followed strong endogamy rules.[93]

>>18124110
>Following Roman rule, Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia were conquered by the Vandals, then by the Ostrogoths, and finally by the Byzantines. Sicily was later invaded by the Arabs in the 9th century and the Normans in the 11th century, leading to the formation of a unique Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture in Sicily. During the subsequent Swabian rule under the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, who spent most of his life as king of Sicily in his court in Palermo, Moors were progressively eradicated until the massive deportation of the last Muslims of Sicily.[177] As a result of the Arab expulsion, many towns across Sicily were left depopulated. By the 12th century, Swabian kings granted immigrants from northern Italy (particularly Piedmont, Lombardy and Liguria), Latium and Tuscany in central Italy, and French regions of Normandy, Provence and Brittany (all collectively known as Lombards.)[178][179] settlement into Sicily, re-establishing the Latin element into the island, a legacy which can be seen in the many Gallo-Italic dialects and towns found in the interior and western parts of Sicily, brought by these settlers.[180] Before them, other Lombards arrived in Sicily, with an expedition departed in 1038, led by the Byzantine commander George Maniakes,[181] which for a very short time managed to snatch Messina and Syracuse from Arab rule. The Lombards who arrived with the Byzantines settled in Maniace, Randazzo and Troina, while a group of Genoese and other Lombards from Liguria settled in Caltagirone.[182] After the marriage between the Norman Roger I of Sicily and Adelaide del Vasto, descendant of the Aleramici family, many Northern Italian colonisers (known collectively as Lombards) left their homeland, in the Aleramici's possessions in Piedmont and Liguria (then known as Lombardy), to settle on the island of Sicily.[183][184] It is believed that the Lombard immigrants in Sicily over a couple of centuries were a total of about 200,000.[185][186][187]

>>18124117
An estimated 20,000 Swabians and 40,000 Normans settled in the southern half of Italy during the 10th and 11th centuries.[188] Additional Tuscan migrants settled in Sicily after the Florentine conquest of Pisa in 1406.[189]

Some of the Muslims expelled by the Normans were deported to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic). Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000,[190] leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of the Angevin Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery,[191] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[192] After the expulsions of Muslims in Lucera, Charles II replaced Lucera's Saracens with Christians, chiefly Burgundian and Provençal soldiers and farmers,[193] following an initial settlement of 140 Provençal families in 1273.[194] A remnant of the descendants of these Provençal colonists, still speaking a Franco-Provençal dialect, has survived until the present day in the villages of Faeto and Celle di San Vito.

>>18124117
>An estimated 20,000 Swabians and 40,000 Normans settled in the southern half of Italy during the 10th and 11th centuries.[188] Additional Tuscan migrants settled in Sicily after the Florentine conquest of Pisa in 1406.[189]

Some of the Muslims expelled by the Normans were deported to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic). Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000,[190] leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of the Angevin Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery,[191] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[192] After the expulsions of Muslims in Lucera, Charles II replaced Lucera's Saracens with Christians, chiefly Burgundian and Provençal soldiers and farmers,[193] following an initial settlement of 140 Provençal families in 1273.[194] A remnant of the descendants of these Provençal colonists, still speaking a Franco-Provençal dialect, has survived until the present day in the villages of Faeto and Celle di San Vito.

>>18124120
>An estimated 20,000 Swabians and 40,000 Normans settled in the southern half of Italy during the 10th and 11th centuries.[188] Additional Tuscan migrants settled in Sicily after the Florentine conquest of Pisa in 1406.[189]

>Some of the Muslims expelled by the Normans were deported to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic). Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000,[190] leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of the Angevin Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery,[191] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[192] After the expulsions of Muslims in Lucera, Charles II replaced Lucera's Saracens with Christians, chiefly Burgundian and Provençal soldiers and farmers,[193] following an initial settlement of 140 Provençal families in 1273.[194] A remnant of the descendants of these Provençal colonists, still speaking a Franco-Provençal dialect, has survived until the present day in the villages of Faeto and Celle di San Vito.

>>18124117
>An estimated 20,000 Swabians and 40,000 Normans settled in the southern half of Italy during the 10th and 11th centuries.[188] Additional Tuscan migrants settled in Sicily after the Florentine conquest of Pisa in 1406.[189]

>Some of the Muslims expelled by the Normans were deported to Lucera (Lugêrah, as it was known in Arabic). Their numbers eventually reached between 15,000 and 20,000,[190] leading Lucera to be called Lucaera Saracenorum because it represented the last stronghold of Islamic presence in Italy. The colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of the Angevin Charles II of Naples. The city's Muslim inhabitants were exiled or sold into slavery,[191] with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[192] After the expulsions of Muslims in Lucera, Charles II replaced Lucera's Saracens with Christians, chiefly Burgundian and Provençal soldiers and farmers,[193] following an initial settlement of 140 Provençal families in 1273.[194] A remnant of the descendants of these Provençal colonists, still speaking a Franco-Provençal dialect, has survived until the present day in the villages of Faeto and Celle di San Vito.

>>18120735
It's a painting, not a genetic study.

>>18120749
>South Italians, Jews and Greeks for Imperial era
Fucking brutal

1. Spanish
2. North Italians
3. South French (Occitan)

In that order
They all look mostly the same though, its like the difference between Dutch and German

>>18124177
Spaniards are high WHG basques with MENA and imperial Roman dna. Totally different haplogroups and totally different phenotype.

>A 2002 study found the prevalence of blue eye color among the white population in the United States to be 33.8% for those born from 1936 through 1951, compared with 57.4% for those born from 1899 through 1905.[15] As of 2006, one out of every six Americans, or 16.6% of the total US population, has blue eyes,[66] including 22.3% of whites. The incidence of blue eyes continues to decline among American children.[67] In southern Europe, 56% of Slovenes, 40.8% of Italians from Verona, 22.5% of Spaniards from Alicante and 15.4% of Greeks from Thessaloniki have green, gray or blue eyes.[68][69] In a series of 221 photographs of Spanish subjects, 16.3% of the subjects were determined to have blue-gray eyes.[46] In Poland, a study of 1,020 people found that 52.5% had blue irises, with men being ~1.5 times more likely to have blue eyes than women.[70]

>>18124188
Eye color frequencies remain stable after the Imperial period. The skin and the hair color got lighter probably due to the sexual selection for light traits typical of Northern populations.

>As regards to the data on the pigmentation of eyes, hair and skin, the following results were obtained from the study on ancient DNA of the 11 individuals of the Iron Age/Republican period, coming from Latium and Abruzzo, and the 27 individuals of Medieval/Early Modern period, coming from Latium.

>For Iron Age/Republic period, the eye color is blue in 27% of the examined and dark in the remaining 73%. Hair color is 9% blond or dark blond and 91% dark brown or black. The skin color is intermediate for 82%, intermediate or dark for 9% and dark or very dark for the remaining 9%.[96]

>By contrast, the following results were obtained for Medieval/Early Modern period: the eye color is blue in 26% of the examined and dark in the remaining 74%. Hair color is 22% blond or dark blond, 11% red and 67% dark brown or black. The skin color is pale for 15%, intermediate for 68%, intermediate or dark for 10% and dark or very dark for the remaining 7%.[96]

>>18120710 (OP)
I’m Sicilian and me and my family members look 90% similar to old Roman depictions
>>18120721
Northern Italians don’t look like OP at all