Thread 18125439

Enjoy-Hell-Guy is infamous by now, but I'd like to state, for the record, that everyone in Hell is getting a punishment PROPORTIONATE to their sins. For example, a serial killer is burning hotter than a thief. Everyone in Hell is judged according to the weight of their good and evil deeds. They brought it upon themselves. The thing is is that man's goodness cannot exceed the bad, and without any deliverance, they will end up in Hell, the land of the dead. A place of hopelessness sometimes pictured in the general pagan outlook of a bleak afterlife perhaps eating dust for eternity.
The poet Dante went a little overboard with this and his rings of Hell, but the concept of degrees of damnation is biblical.

>>18125439 (OP)
>qualifying Hell
You're going to burn too, maybe the hottest of all. Enjoy it :)

>>18125439 (OP)
Unfortunately, not
It is not a Karma system where good is +1 and bad is -1
You are a servant made to follow orders, and God's orders were for you to worship him and do as he did. The fact that you were not as bad as others doesn't mean much. You're still a disobedient servant who harmed the master and caused destruction throughout his kingdom

Thus, you would be thrown to the prison like all the rest

That's such a scam. I was told I'd suffer the worst possible torture forever but apparently it will be the equivalent of having a headache and playing boring videogames at low fps on an overcast day.

>>18125448
>>18125454
You two will be burning too ;)

>>18125457
Have fun burning ;)

>>18125446
?

>>18125448
>You are a servant made to follow orders, and God's orders were for you to worship him and do as he did. The fact that you were not as bad as others doesn't mean much. You're still a disobedient servant who harmed the master and caused destruction throughout his kingdom
>Thus, you would be thrown to the prison like all the rest

none of that really refutes what I said and I feel like you want to disagree with what I said because Solitaire is baptist and you are catholick.
unless you're disagreeing about what I said about imputation.

>>18125457
Dude, the Middle Ages are over, church isn't burning folk anymore.

>>18125454
>I was told I'd suffer the worst possible torture forever
I mean it's torture... and it's forever, so it's theoretically worse than any earthly torture, even if it lacks a certain severity moment-to-moment.
I don't think any adult sinner is going to be spared the actual burning part. Every adult I've ever known is a very guilty person, myself included.

>>18125464
We never even did
The majority of burnings happened in Renaissance and the Enlightenment era. Even still, it is super rare, like 1-3 person a year in a country of 10M

>>18125439 (OP)
That's why Baptists will get the worst torture.

>>18125448
Actually most people intuitively follow Babylonian ethics rather than Christian ones, which is why they are repulsed by the idea of a punishment not being different based on a crime's severity.
This is why the average Western person would pass a harsher sentence on a servant who rapes his master's wife than a servant who spits on the floor in the hallway when he thinks nobody's looking.
>>18125467
You're a chronic gooner addicted to hardcore online pornography, not everyone is like that.

>>18125439 (OP)
>A place of hopelessness sometimes pictured in the general pagan outlook of a bleak afterlife perhaps eating dust for eternity.
>The poet Dante went a little overboard with this and his rings of Hell, but the concept of degrees of damnation is biblical.
It's a lake of fire where you burn in darkness with no rest day or night, forever. Admit it: You don't care what the Bible teaches.
>>18125472
picrel

>>18125459
>>18125462
>>18125464
>>18125467
>>18125479
>>18125483
You're all going to burn.

>>18125483
>You don't care what the Bible teaches.
I mean that Dante went overboard with the specific details, doofus.
>A place of hopelessness sometimes pictured in the general pagan outlook of a bleak afterlife perhaps eating dust for eternity.
I am explaining that pagans were correct in assuming they'd all go to Hell where they'd suffer for eternity.

>>18125439 (OP)
>The poet Dante went a little overboard with this and his rings of Hell, but the concept of degrees of damnation is biblical.
Biblical Hell is basically just offhand comments by Jesus about "the lake of fire"

>>18125486
Tik tok ;)

>>18125439 (OP)
Can we fucking ban this guy already?

>>18125479
Modern justice system was made by Christians

And lol
non-Christian justice systems aren't based on damage at all, but on who you did it to and who you are.
It's a caste system. Babylon, China, Rome, etc. All follow distinct caste systems.

Equal standards are entirely Christian

>>18125529
why? I'm not shitting up the board with spam.

>>18125483
Thank you for posting that infographic. I hope you enjoy it.

>>18125536
You should be banned from IRL by an inquisitor Credo.

>>18125536
I meant the Enjoy-Hell/Tick-Tock poster.

>>18125529
>Can we fucking ban this guy already?
Small problem: I'm not breaking any rules.

>>18125552
>pretending to be me
Enjoy hell. You bear false witness

>>18125552
You're a Credodemon right? You should be executed in public. Who cares if you can post here. You need to burn as it is the only way to hopefully save your soul, as your brief experience with the flames before you die might give you a chance to repent before you spend eternity in them.

>>18125559
Enjoy hell. :)

>>18125562
>you can be saved by faith alone when you're on the stake
indeed.

>>18125567
Yeah. John Calvin himself oversaw the public burning of a credo baptists minister.

>>18125568
Michael Servetus is the guy Calvin had executed by burning.

>>18125568
>According to Servetus, trinitarians had turned Christianity into a form of "tritheism", or belief in three gods.
I'm not sure it's the baptism thing that did him in

>>18125573
He was a credo too.

>>18125576
have you considered that you may have a form of schizophrenia? do you have any close friends irl to confide in?

>>18125562
Enjoy Hell, monomaniac.

>>18125579
No. I just hate credobaptists. You know I am not the enjoy hell guy right?

>>18125586
I can tell. You're crazier.
You have symptoms of schizotypal disorder at least. No one else on earth uses the phrase "credodemon"

>>18125591
>no one on earth uses the phrase credodemon
Makes you think about where it might be used huh.

>>18125535
Christians influenced more by Hammurabi than Jesus. Almost nobody actually thinks that every crime merits the same punishment, even most of the christfreaks who say it do not believe it.

>>18125635
The Bible doesn't teach that. Your ignorance is noted. Enjoy the flames.

>>18125635
>Quoting Pagans
You're going to burn
>>18125656
>Pretending to be me
Bearing false witness. Enjoy the flames.

>>18125635
Crime, no
But it makes no difference if you were a murderer or a copper thief; you're still going to be in the same prison, maybe even the same cell

>>18125888
That's literally false though. There's special prisons for really bad criminals, people get suspended sentences etc.
Furthermore, the severity is mediated by the length of the imprisonment. If this were not so, the nature of each punishment would differ significantly to account for that.

>>18125439 (OP)
Is it like the difference between minimum security and super max prison?

>>18125888
>maybe even the same cell
okay but not really though.
everyone in Hell was judged ACCORDING to their works.
God says his anger can burn "to the lowest hells."
And Jesus says false teachers have "the greater damnation."

>>18125911
>>18125908
The fact that you have different sentences doesn't mean much. You still end up separated, isolated, and locked up away from the people because you are a threat

The "different severity" is an illusion of the world.

Justice is obtained by judging not your actions but your intentions. Murder, self-defense, and infanticide are all committed with the same action, but are punished differently because it is the heart that they look at

And the heart is judged by how innocent your target is

God is infinitely good
Everything he does is made with nothing but goodwill in mind. All he cares about is the well-being of his creations

By rejecting the will of the Lord, you set it in your heart that you do not want to be an instrument of God's grace. You reject him for eternity

You seek only his wrath, and wrath he shall give you

>>18125932
Those are christschizo ramblings that the average person does not believe, hence my claim that he average Westerner is more influenced by Hammurabi than by Jesus.

>>18125932
>Papist
Tick tock.
>>18125944
>Gaytheist
Tick tock.

>>18125958
>Southern Baptist
Tick Tock

>>18125439 (OP)
Hell is silly.
>hey you didn't go to church enough times so you have to writhe in agony for six million gajillion bazillion years times infinity

Childish concept tbqh.

>>18125999
I am a baptist. Heaven is only contingent on faith and trust in Jesus Christ's atonement for your sins. Not on "going to church enough"
But I would agree that it's silly to claim you could earn your way to Heaven.

enjoy hel

>>18125999
Protees have taught you poorly
Even the Bible say that Jesus thought little of the Sabbath. It is your heart that he cares about

>>18126006
>>18126012
>missing the point this hard
It doesn't matter. It could be anything. Maybe you looked at too much porn.

Enjoy Heaven.

>>18125439 (OP)
I still wonder about the enjoy hell guy. Is he some fedora troll whose goal is to turn as many people away from Christ as he possibly can?

>>18126023
>missing the point this hard
Take a look in the mirror. You're braindead. Have fun burning.

>>18126023
I mean, no. I do not ascribe to such a thing as someone "losing their salvation"
I am saying that everyone in Hell deserves it, and receive punishment commensurate to their sin.
Heaven is contingent on an unearned gift by Jesus Christ.

>>18126026
No. Fedoras/LARPagans started this war. I wanted to learn about history, but every other thread is "Fuck God this, Fuck Christ that, Become Catholodox or burn". It's tiresome. I

>>18126023
The Church teaches that sin is a serious thing that cannot be done nonchalantly; It requires FULL consent.
If you have guilt and remorse, then it is not a full consent

This doesn't mean that you are in good graces, but it does mean that you are condemned, yet

>>18126034
>you are condemned, yet
*not condemned, yet

>>18126034
Load up. You're going to need lots of pills when you wake up in Hell.

>>18126039
Load up. You're going to need a lot more pills when you wake up in Hell.

>>18126031
So why sink to that level? I understand being frustrated with someone insulting or lying about Christianity and God, but making Christians look exactly like the caricature the fedoras think they are doesn’t seem very helpful. Especially when I’ve seen cases of the enjoy hell business thrown at someone who is just seeking answers.

Christianity has what I call the "Blip" problem.

-Assume scenario A: Hell is temporary.
You time in hell is relevant to how wicked your deeds on Earth have been. More sin = longer time in Hell.
But Heaven is forever. So however long you spend in Hell, your time in heaven will be infinitely longer than that. Additionally, since Heaven is by definition a place of zero suffering, you will not have any lasting effects from your time in hell. No memories, no trauma, no nothing.
Which means from your point of view you basically didn't go to Hell at all. It was just a "blip". You wouldn't even perceive it, because that's against the rules+concept of Heaven.

-Assume Scenario B: Hell is Eternal and there is no escape.
In this case people who have committed sins on Earth are punished in a way that is in no way reciprocal with their behavior. Even a person who murders another does deserve an infinity of pain and suffering. This is evil, and does not correspond to biblical ideas about forgiveness and mercy. It is the ultimate hypocrisy. Additionally, here too the "blip" problem rises as your time on Earth is a blip compared to an infinity in hell, becoming such a small fragment of your continuum of existence that it becomes infinitely small. Over long time scales one imagines that this infinitesimal fragment of your early existence will become impossible to perceive, and thus people in hell are ignorant/innocent of the crimes they are being punished for. Or perhaps through the power of God one is always aware of their sins, no matter how much time has passed.

>>18126059
>Every hellposter on /his/ has the same motivation.
Go ahead, I invite you to estimate your own IQ based on the evidence.

>>18126031
Ok, but why did you shit up /chess/? What did the weavers ever do to you?

>>18126063
>are punished in a way that is in no way reciprocal with their behavior
Sin is irreducibly evil thoughever.
No excuse for your sin exists other than
>I chose to do evil because I CHOSE to do evil
i.e. you always have the choice not to sin, but you do it anyways. You are gifted with a conscious human soul and instead of doing good with it, you do evil with it because you wanted to be evil. This is simply inexcusable, however much the evil varies in severity.
Try it even with a thief
>I had to steal because I was hungry
But if you truly examine this, you find that they could have done otherwise to sate their hunger
They could
>get a job
or
>beg
but people are sometimes to prideful (read: evil) to beg or work.
>oh but what about famine??
Then you're just stealing from someone else who is hungry lol.

>>18126079
be silent, dimwit

>>18126063
It is not a problem:
Hell is eternal, and it is a choice

Your actions matter very little
Plenty of prophets and judges were murderers

It is your heart that speaks for itself

If you want to be in heaven, worship God and do as he did
One cannot be a citizen of a country if you are not willing to bow to its ruler and pledge allegiance to the flag and its people. And no dual allegiance

If you will not do that, then you are just a traitor waiting to strike. Give your all or get out

>>18126074
See? If my goal was to turn someone seeking answers from Christ, that’s how I’d act. Come across as mean, petty, threatening, and all that. That is, after all, the narrative. That Christians are just small, hateful creatures. Using salvation as a method of trolling people because they haven’t found God yet? I dunno. You tell me what that says about my IQ that I think it’s a bad idea.

>>18126076
>Ok, but why did you shit up /chess/? What did the weavers ever do to you?
I don't know what you're talking about. I've made 1 post on /chess/ in my life.

>>18126034
Your roody-poo candy-ass version of "Christianity" is not the real thing lmao.

>>18126082
This means that avoiding hell is an epistemic problem, i.e. you have to use your intellect to arrive at the correct belief.
Basically gnosticism.

>>18126088
I don't believe you. I think you are lying to me. Iirc there was even some guy who liked to spam "take your meds" gifs just like you.

>>18126084
>Using salvation as a method of trolling people because they haven’t found God yet? I dunno. You tell me what that says about my IQ that I think it’s a bad idea.
It says that you aren't capable of understanding the difference between
A) mocking subhumans who HATE the Lord and
B) taunting Joe Unsaved.
Now that I have laid it out clearly, are you able to see how those are two very different things? Or are you sub-80 IQ?

>>18126093
>I don't believe you. I think you are lying to me.
Great. Believe what you want.
>Iirc there was even some guy who liked to spam "take your meds" gifs just like you.
Do you think every frogposter is the same person too?

>>18126082
>another retard
Think for ten more years before replying to me again.

>>18126094
Nta but you even use it against a Christian from a different denomination in this very thread. That makes for great evidence that Christians are petty vindictive spiteful people.

>>18126103
1. Catholics aren't Christian.
2. That is terrible evidence.

>>18125439 (OP)
>for the record, that everyone in Hell is getting a punishment PROPORTIONATE to their sins.
>The thing is is that man's goodness cannot exceed the bad, and without any deliverance, they will end up in Hell
In order for that to be true that means 99.999999% of an individual humans sin is so overwhelming that their individual life choices don't actually matter as far as offsetting it.
You don't see the contradiction here?
If a milquetoast average person can't serendipitously avoid hell simply by not being a a murdering thieving adulterous rapist, then hell ceases to be a punishment for evil and is reduced to a mere sadistic display of misanthropy.

>>18126098
I'm not talking about one gif. What I mean is that way of posting of yours where you respond with a "take your meds" gif to someone several times in a row every time they reply to the previous gif.
I've seen that in two different contexts - in /chess/ and from a guy who uses a chess related name while posting on /his/.

>>18126094
Have you ever asked why someone might hate the Lord? Or, at least why someone might think they hate the Lord? Do you think taunting Joe Unsaved so that he thinks that’s how Christians are and feels less desire to embrace Christ is a good idea? The reason people get upset by being told that they’ll be in your prayers is that it doesn’t answer petty spite with petty spite and can help make them uncomfortable enough in their assumptions to ask the kind of questions that turn mockery into seeking. Obviously I have no control over what you do and say, but is that really the face you want to help put on the faithful? The people who tease those they know are wrong with the worst thing that could ever happen to them? It’s worse than telling someone you hope they get cancer and that their children die of AIDS.

>>18126111
I'm sure some grandma in rural Poland hates Jesus because she was raised Catholic rather than Southern Baptist.

>>18126112
>sadistic display of misanthropy.
You can call it that but salvation (going to Heaven) is a free gift. And people that trust in Jesus can be rewarded for their good works in Heaven, without fear of Hell.
And I don't subscribe to the idea that people in the past (or even precolumbian America) were without witness to God. The Bible says that everyone once knew God (by virtue of all being descended from Noah, a prophet), so everyone drifted away of their own accord. Second, it says the voice of the prophets went out into all the earth. So someone somewhere was preaching "the Most High God" and his mercy to every group of people at some point.

>>18126115
Great, like I said believe I'm that guy if you want. I don't care.
>>18126117
>Have you ever asked why someone might hate the Lord?
Sure, and there are no good reasons.
>Do you think taunting Joe Unsaved so that he thinks that’s how Christians are and feels less desire to embrace Christ is a good idea?
Ah, okay, so you are sub-80 IQ. I don't even know how many standard deviations below me that is, I can't count that high. I'm done with you.

>>18126127
Of course I will believe it, I'd be retarded if I didn't. Why do you keep lying to me? Doesn't your religion say it's a sin?

>>18126120
>I'm sure some grandma in rural Poland hates Jesus because she was raised Catholic rather than Southern Baptist.
There are Polish translations of the Bible in Poland as well as Baptists churches and missionaries. The fact is, the truth is out there and she didn't care. Many such cases.

>>18126132
Bye.

>>18126135
My Catholic grandma never even knew such a thing as a Southern Baptist exists. You much overestimate how much access to information people had before the internet.

>>18126138
Pretty sure a /chess/ poster also liked to do that. You are not representing your faith well here, liar.

>>18126127
People are complex, flawed, and prone to being wrong. Your disappointment in them is normal, but allowing that to eclipse your love for them hurts you too. I’ll pray for you, and for anyone else who gets hurt in these so often pointlessly mean online arguments. God bless you.

>>18126141
>Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
>For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 7:7-8 KJV.
Maybe your grandmother should have knocked. You should get saved.

>>18126122
>You can call it that but salvation (going to Heaven) is a free gift
It's not.
>And people that trust in Jesus can be rewarded for their good works in Heaven, without fear of Hell.
If someone says that you can have 1 million dollars but you have participate* in a time share presentation
you're not rejecting a gift of 1 million dollars when you decide not to go to the time share. Especially so when you know that no one has actually got the 1 million dollars because of the ridiculously ephermeral "participation" requirements that the organizers keep saying are unfulfilled whenever someone thinks they have fulfilled them.


Your religion sounds like a scam to anyone who doesn't already have buy-in.

>>18126153
Two questions:
1. What part of "free" do you not understand?
2. At what age did you decide to hate Jesus?

>>18126156
It's not free
You don't actually know if you've been saved or not.
In my timeshare analogy, you're basically a chump who insists it's not a scam despite not having actually received the 1 million dollars liquid cash.

>>18126162
Great, now answer question 2.

>>18126150
>if you don't hate jesus, a fundamentalist southern baptist pastor will be pulled through a wormhole into your shithole eastern european village
bruh

>>18126153
To be honest I was never scared of Hell was I was an atheist. I am simply discussing it for the sake of it at this point. I am pointing out that God is just, and if people go to Hell, they deserve what they get, being degrees of punishment.
In regards to MYSELF, I just couldn't help but love Jesus when reading the Bible for the first time. idc if that sounds weird.
And recognizing my own sins instead of trying to cover them up was just intuitive. "To be a good person is to recognize you are not a good person" seemed like a logical couplet to "if I know anything it is that I know nothing"
To be fair, I'd rather you believe in Jesus than be "afraid of Hell"
I am sort of the anti-Enjoy-Hell-Guy in this respect.

>>18126167
>To be fair, I'd rather you believe in Jesus than be "afraid of Hell"
>I am sort of the anti-Enjoy-Hell-Guy in this respect.
1. I'd rather they believed too. I just recognize that they are past that point.
2. I don't care if they are afraid of Hell. I find it extremely entertaining that they are going to go to sleep one day happy and content with their rejection of the Lord, only to wake up facing an eternity of his unmixed wrath. I wish I could get a Polaroid of the look on their face when they realize the Bible was true. I'd put it on my fridge.

>>18126167
>>18126177
Flames just got hotter. Tick tock.

>>18126167
Religion just sounds like baseless headcanon to me.
You know how nerds will get really into fiction and know all the ins and outs of made up lore and get into arguments about it?
>>18126177
>1. I'd rather they believed too. I just recognize that they are past that point.
This is why I can't take you seriously. You fundamentally do not understand my position. It's like I'm saying "the One Ring isn't real" and your rebuttal is "what are you talking about, Sauron forged the rings?!"
> I find it extremely entertaining that they are going to go to sleep one day happy and content with their rejection of the Lord, only to wake up facing an eternity of his unmixed wrath.
"Men are coming to scour the Shire!"
The shire isn't real.
>I wish I could get a Polaroid of the look on their face when they realize the Bible was true.
Gandalf isn't going to beat up everyone you don't like, anon.

>>18126177
You wish you had a polaroid of my late grandma burning in incredible agony because she never became baptist while living in an eastern European village?

>>18126200
>>18126201
Enjoy the flames, reprobate.

>>18126204
You wish you had a polaroid of my late grandma burning in incredible agony because she never became baptist while living in an eastern European village? Really?

>>18126200
Well, the Universe was apparently created ex nihilo at a single point in time complete with finely tuned laws of physics etc. etc.
This is just an incorrigible fact of reality.
So... it's gotta be something.
I believe in Jesus.
Though for a while when I was a nonbeliever I did a lot of sorting on most likely possibilities (e.g. you can just toss out any idea that supposes an eternal universe).
If it's not Jesus it's nothing else.

>>18126221
>Well, the Universe was apparently created ex nihilo at a single point in time complete with finely tuned laws of physics etc. etc.
According to?

>>18126204
me: Sorry I just don't believe Ilúvatar is real, no one who has believed in him has provided any compelling evidence . They just keep pointing to a copy of The Lord of the Rings!
(you): Melkor is going to kill you!
(you) really think
>if I'm correct despite there being zero evidence of that being the case then I am be winner and you be loser!
is a compeling argument?
>>18126221
>If it's not Jesus it's nothing else.
This is extremely arrogant to believe. It could just as well be something that no human in history has ever contemplated or even could comprehend. The possibility space is literally unfathomable.
It cuts both ways. It's nonsensical to say that the universe is too complex, but then also you understand it enough to definitively say what its origin is.

>>18126201
No, you just can't read. I'll spell it out for you: Your grandmother wasn't a passionate hater of the Lord, just a normal unsaved Pole. I want Polaroids of the active enemies of Jesus burning in Hell. Further, I would that every Polish person would be saved, it is a shame that they have bought into the Pope's lies.

>>18126208
Yep, and I wish I had one of you too.
>>18126221
>>18126233
Tick tock :)

>>18126233
All known science and observation.
So much so that any alternative explanation than theism is just supposes without evidence that there must be infinity universes that generate randomly by entirely unknown mechanisms.

>>18126241
Tick tock, reprobate :)

>>18126241
Uh huh, and which denomination of Christianity is the true one? Are adherents of the others all going to hell while you smile in glee because they got some inscrutable detail wrong that you, miraculously, did not?

that's would be a good reason to believe in a personal savior, to be honest.
>I wasn't even trying or truly aware but permanently got on the good side of an omnipotent omniscient tyrant god

>>18126241
I don't think she even knew there was such a thing as different denominations, lol.
But why wouldn't you want her polaroid? Given that she gets the same sentence, isn't she just as culpable? Makes no sense to me that you'd think both should get the same punishment but you wouldn't want the polaroid of my grandma.

>>18126247
>that generate randomly by entirely unknown mechanisms.
No rules means NO RULES including "something can't come from nothing"
How is this hard to understand.

>>18126255
>Uh huh, and which denomination of Christianity is the true one?
The ones which profess that Jesus is LORD and know that only through faith in him is salvation.
>Are adherents of the others all going to hell while you smile in glee because they got some inscrutable detail wrong that you, miraculously, did not?
Yep. Tick tock.
>>18126256
He's a false flagger. I want to see her burn. Tick tock :)

>>18126238
well, I can say that if it is theism, then it's Jesus.
>This is extremely arrogant to believe
why? I didn't come up with Jesus or the Bible.

>no human in history has ever contemplated or even could comprehend
seeing as there logically are no other sapient beings in the Universe, I don't see why human consciousness isn't special.
>inb4 there totally are aliens
something without evidence then... we see that humans no matter what have faith in something or the other.

>>18126255
>Uh huh, and which denomination of Christianity is the true one?
>Uh huh
I'm not going to cast pearls before swine. If you were sincere you'd ask the Lord.
>>18126256
I can't explain it to you any more clearly. Have fun in Hell.

>>18126261
>nothing exploded itself into a universe one day for no reason
>it makes sense because there are no rules, you see

>>18126272
>Continuing to bear false witness
Tick tock.

>>18126247
Can't you be more specific instead of smugposting? What's the specific source of information (or even specific set of observations) that leads you to believe the universe came about ex nihilo?
Don't be mistaken, I know what you're trying to do here. You're slowly inching towards less and less cordial conversation so that you can get away with putting less and less effort into your responses. I know the pattern.

>>18126280
If he's a false flagger, answer my question here >>18126256

>>18126296
I told you. I want the polaroid. Catholics are reprobates who think works will save them.

>>18126290
Now, maybe the majority of astrophysicists (NOT "theoretical physicists", this is important) for the last 100 years have been dead wrong, but they say that the "early universe" at the immediate moment of the Big Bang was so ineffably small that no form of matter could possibly have fit within it.
You could argue that this was a change from energy INTO matter, but at the same time there is no known mechanism for such energy as what the entire* Universe contains to be so stored as potential energy either. We observe nothing within our Universe as it is that could do such a thing, so a cyclic view of the Universe is disproven. And if not cyclic, this also implies a definite "impulse" or cause at the beginning.

>>18126311
A UNIQUE impulse I should say.

>>18126311
>Now, maybe the majority of astrophysicists (NOT "theoretical physicists", this is important) for the last 100 years have been dead wrong, but they say that the "early universe" at the immediate moment of the Big Bang was so ineffably small that no form of matter could possibly have fit within it.
Specific names and quotes?
>We observe nothing within our Universe as it is that could do such a thing, so a cyclic view of the Universe is disproven.
We also do not observe gods.

>>18126277
...
As opposed to a creator that has either always existed or created itself?

>>18126330
>Specific names
Georges Lemaitre (theory and observation), Max Planck (the math , Planck units)
I mean, if I am mistaken, and the scientific community does NOT accept the Big Bang and the Planck Epoch, then I apologize.

>>18126335
My rationale has nothing to do with presupposing what "can" or "can't" exist but on the observed qualities of the Universe.

>>18126370
>My rationale has nothing to do with presupposing what "can" or "can't" exist but on the observed qualities of the Universe.
But somehow "you can't know the qualities of non-Universe things ( aka pre-Universe) has" is a reach too far?

>>18126370
>picrel
Man, atheists strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.

>>18126376
I don't necessarily have reason to doubt these observations/the math. They would appear to confirm a created Universe.
I believe Apparent Age is a valid interpretation. The Bible both says that long continuous erosion of water creates valleys, and that God created the Earth in an instant complete with rivers and landforms. And we already know that trees take decades to grow, but God planted a garden in Eden.

>>18126374
It cannot be observed.

>>18126387
>I don't necessarily have reason to doubt these observations/the math.
Here, I'll give you one.

>>18126122
>You can call it that but salvation (going to Heaven) is a free gift.
If it was free I wouldn't have to do anything to get it. I could just kill myself right now and have it guaranteed.

>>18126201
If she was Catholic or Atheist she isn't burning. If she was Orthodox or Jewish she is.

>>18126523
It's free because you don't have to work for it.
You do have to believe in your heart (you know your own heart and God knows it better).
>Then just kill yourself
but why? I like life. At least the conscious experience of the soul. The eating and drinking, the shitting and pissing, even sex; are all so tiresome, loathsome. But I still enjoy being me, and the ability to achieve things on earth before time runs out.
The Bible says "to live is Christ" so I feel no reason to argue.

>>18126538
>implying sincerely believing in something baseless isn't effort
what does that say about the integrity of your belief

>>18126542
well it's not "work"
does anyone pay you for mental effort only you know about?

>>18126545
I would hardly say that solving a philosophical conundrum is not work, nor that getting a reward conditional on solving it, "free".

>>18126538
>You do have to believe in your heart
Then it isn't free.

>>18126548
>I would hardly say that solving a philosophical conundrum is not work, nor that getting a reward conditional on solving it, "free".
It's not a reward, it's accepting a gift. Jesus is giving you a gift. Take it or don't. You don't even have to have 100% faith in it (exemplified in the prayer "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"). You just have to not be trusting in anything else (such as your good works). This was pretty easy for me as an atheist I guess since I didn't have any preexistent religious beliefs.

>>18126562
again, something that is conditional upon effort is not a gift, it is a reward or payment.

>>18126568
>it's not a gift
>I had to unwrap it

>>18126571
you don't -have- to unwrap it, it's still a gift.
turbo schizos who will say that ultimate ownership of the present is conditional upon unwrapping it notwithstanding

>>18126562
>Jesus is giving you a gift.
a gift with caveats.

>>18126538
>It's free because you don't have to work for it.
I do have to work for it. I have to risk that all the other religions are false and I have picked the correct one with Christianity.

What if I die and I'm wrong and I go to Hades because I forsook the Hellenistic pantheon?

>>18126538
>It's free because you don't have to work for it.
But you do have to work for it. It's a massive personal investment to choose to lead a Christian life. And no, just "believing" is not good enough no matter what your namby-pamby pastor told you. You have to do works too. You gotta walk the walk.

>>18126577
I think you're both talking past each other because, naturally, a practicing Christian already enjoys his faith, doesn't see the sacrifices it entails as the "cost" of receiving the gift of heaven, since these often already feel like heaven to the Christian, especially compared to lovelessness of his past, but by contrast, the unbeliever without the won perspective doesn't have the experience but to see it in terms of conditions and tiny print.

I think it's a gift to the believer, and a lotto ticket to the unbeliever.

>>18125439 (OP)
>>18125448
Read the catechism. It is possible to be in hell for doing nothing wrong and not be punished as a result. That's what limbo is. Good people who lived before christ/people who never knew of christ despite being good/children who died before baptism all go to hell but are not punished, they're just in the limbo of the fathers or limbo of the Infants.

the idea of hell is just wishful thinking for people who want to live forever. actually, you are not important enough to deserve eternal anything, even eternal suffering. cope and seethe, you'll never be a daimon.

>>18126774
Purgatory, you mean purgatory
It is not hell. It's a staircase to heaven where you get purged of your sins as you climb up.
Prayers from the living can greatly alleviate them and there are some saints who reported being haunted by ghosts who are begging them for a mass

Most famous case was Mussolini's ghost. It was said that a nun kept hearing a knock on her bedroom, from a ghost who was desperate for a mass. It turns out to be the man himself. He repented before dying, but he is locked in purgatory

The Church gave him what he wanted, and the haunting stopped

Let's pray that he is alright, along with the rest of them

How come jews didn't believe in hell or afterlife but jewish spin-off christianity does? Was there a hell before christ?

>>18126811
The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

>>18126811
No, I don't mean purgatory retard. I mean the highest circle of hell, limbo.

>>18127908
"Circle of Hell" is entirely by Dante
It is so much of a fanfic that there are people there who were still alive during publication