Thread 18141159

Why did the Germans chimp out?

In 1938 all of their demands have been satisfied. There was no need to go to war against their neighbors.

>>18141159 (OP)
Because Hitler worshipped Shaitan and needed a blood sacrifice

>>18141159 (OP)
Poland wouldn’t allow Democracy in Germany. That is literally what happened.

Because poland attacked a random useless radio tower in brandenburg o algo and also it was actually ss troops dressed as polish

>>18141159 (OP)
They were jealous of the masculine aura of Slavic bvlls

>>18141159 (OP)
Because their economy was going to collapse. The Nazis rebuilt the economy through debt (that they had no way of repaying) and rearmament. It was a giant bubble that was going to pop unless they put their war economy to use. The original plan was always to go to war with the soviet union at some point to make full use of their militarized economy, but Poland was in the way and wasn't willing to submit to German demands so they had to go, and Hitler was banking on the Allies surrendering after winning a victory against France.

>>18141223
>but Poland was in the way
Why not attack from Bulgaria/Rumainia and Koingsberg?That will keep the west out of the war.Hitler just couldnt stop grabbing territory because his military was so fast at conquest.

>>18141223
>Because their economy was going to collapse. The Nazis rebuilt the economy through debt (that they had no way of repaying) and rearmament.
There is zero evidence that debt was a major factor for the Germans. No economists were telling Hitler to go to war. Hitler wanted to conquer the East for Lebensraum and he wrote about that in his book. Adam Tooze is retarded.

Joachim von Ribbentrop had convinced Hitler that Britain and France would not do shit if Germany attacked Poland.
Then they did shit.

>>18141223
>The Nazis rebuilt the economy through debt (that they had no way of repaying) and rearmament.
huh, kind of like the modern american economy

>>18141159 (OP)
destroying the Soviet Union to end bolshevism was their goal from the beginning. Unfortunately the western allies were retarded enough to prevent this

>>18141159 (OP)
Poland was genociding the polish germans

>>18141159 (OP)
Chimping out was always the goal. There is no other way to acquire all the lebensraum they desired without war.

>>18141214
They captured one of the assailants and he was an ethnic pole. The police report was found recently. Ron Unz wrote an article on it.
Unz is an anti nationalist Jew btw. He doesn’t have a reason to strain his credibility with lies in favor of the Nazis.

>>18141223
This isn’t true.
>>18141270
This also isn’t true.

If Hitler wanted to go east, why didn’t he go east? Why did he wait for years until resource shortages drove him east looking for oil and steel and rare metals?
Why not go east as soon as France is locked down. Thats what the Kaiser did.

>>18141606
They werent risking their existing lebensraum for more lebensraum, thats silly and you have no strategic insight.

>>18141223
Why didn't Hitler not just use his credit card?

>>18141569
False.
Poles are too weak to genocide anyone

>>18141735
The Poles had Winged Hussars, you fuck.

>>18141694
>Why not go east as soon as France is locked down. Thats what the Kaiser did.
He did. Hitler announced his intentions to invade the USSR already in July and then they spent the next 10 months makings plans and preparations.

>>18141738
Why did he want to fight the CCCP? Could Germany have taken the CCCP if the UK and US fucked off?

>>18141159 (OP)
Why aren't those guys shooting Hitler?

>>18141606
Lebensraum had already been acquired after the fall of Poland. Germany had conquered sizeable new land that would have taken a lifetime for Germany to assimilate. Even modern Germany today struggle with integrating its eastern half without overburden the economy to do so.

The invasion of the USSR was primarily pragmatic and strategic to aquire resources to continue the war and/or end Britain's will to continue the war because they were betting on USSR to be a factor. It was also because Russis was modernizing and industrializing which would have made her impossible to defeat in the future. Imperial Germany in 1912 war meeting literally identified this as a core reason for seeking conflict with Russia as soon as possible because Russia will overtake Germany eventually, become a hegenony, and then Germany will always be subservient.
Hitler wanted to break up the vast state into smaller states, just like Kaiser Wilhelm, the difference was that Hitler also wanted autarky so he wanted the smaller emerging states to become German colonies similar to Britain and France respective empires. This would have been a bonus but it wasnt the most pressing reason for Barbarossa.
The invasion of USSR was grounded on the pragmatic geopolitical situation, not blind ideological craze.

>>18141690
American Pravda is a modern serial classic

>>18141690
>Ron Unz
I've been searching his absolute schizo-tier website for 5 minutes and can't find anything about this topic specifically. if you feel like sharing be my guest. but ill be honest, my initial impression of the website and the fact that he is a >Jew is making me think he just made that shit up. I'm an open minded person though

>>18141743
Like I said already now, the most pressing issue for invading USSR was economic.
Germany circumvented British blockade by trading with the USSR but the trade wasn't enough to feed Germany and occupied Europe.
It also made Germany dangerously subservient to the USSR which Stalin was taking advantage of. He was demanding more and more influence over the German sphere and Hitler couldn't object because Soviet trade was critical for survival.
Likewise Britain was continuing the war primarily because the USSR remained as a factor that could fight Germany.
Likewise Stalin was rapidly industrializing and modernizing and expanding the military. If left to be completed, USSR would dwarf Germany and Germany would have lost the race to create a hegemony.

Hitler was ideologically crazy about ensuring Germanys future and how Jewish communists plotted to destroy her, and German superiority over slav serfs, and Germany acquiring autarky by colonizing the east, but people seriously downplay the fundamental logical and pragmatic reasons for invading the USSR because they want to think the Germans were simply insane.

>>18141766
Yeah, but, could Germany have taken the CCCP one-on-one?

>>18141159 (OP)
The Germans were all high on meth.

>>18141736
How did they fare in 1939?
KEK!

>>18141786
Given they folded 5vs1 against Soviet Union I say they lose 1v1

>>18141786
Probably not, but USSR wouldn't have beaten Germany either.
Barbarossa failed on its own accord nearly exclusively by Soviet effort. The only real aid was inferior valentine tanks sent by Britain to the northern front on December.

I dont really know what you mean by 1v1 because even as neutral, USA would likely extend Lend-Lease to the Soviets, since they did so IRL before they officially entered the war, and even so, the significance of Lend-Lease did not arrive until after Case Blue had been grinded down. The Germans simply lacked the men, materials and capability to overcome a resisting USSR. They were betting on Soviet Union being a third-rate power held together by a dysfunctional state apparatus that would collapse under the immediate stress of the invasion in 1941. Barbarossa was literally only planned for 6-8 weeks.

Also by 1v1, I assume you mean Germany has no allies and no occupied territory which enabled Barbarossa because of the overwhelming requisition of especially trucks and other motor vehicles to support the invasion.

It's also a question if whether you want to argue from the premise that ww2 never happened and Germany Invades the USSR, or that ww2 did happen and Britain simply sued fir peace in 1940, and then Germany Invades USSR, because it's vital to the discussion as well whether Wehrmacht has the losses / experience, and whether the Soviets are aware of their own flaws that was made evident in Finland.

>>18141159 (OP)
East Prussia was still separated from the rest of Germany

>>18141159 (OP)
Ok, the actual answer is that Hitler wanted Germany to be economically independent and resistant to trade blockades in case of future wars. He needed fertile land and natural resources for that.
Fine and dandy if it didn't coincide with vital interests of other nations ofc.

>>18141940
>Fine and dandy if it didn't coincide with vital interests of other nations ofc.
Hitler himself and the NSDAP in general must have known that their ambitions against the USSR would never have been acceptable for Britain and France.
Anons pretend like there wouldn't have been a world war if everyone just let Hitler go east and destroy the USSR.
Like you don't think France would have a problem with this mega-sized Germany right at their doorstep? Or England?

I'm almost certain Hitler knew that he first HAD to square away with Britain and France FIRST before making his move on the USSR because he knew France would never allow his vision to become reality.
The only argument I could think of against this is if Hitler wanted to accelerate Wehrnacht strength so rapidly as a deterrence so that Britain and France wouldn't intervene as he carves up the USSR. It does explain the 4-year plan and why Hitler nearly broke the state economy just to achirve astronomically rapid armament so that the west wasn't ready to match it and thus would ultimately bail out from confronting Germany to avoid a meat grinder like ww1.

>>18141159 (OP)
Because they were on a wartime economic model (much like ancient Rome), that required seized land, seized capital, and seized workers; to justify massive spending on military armaments and public work projects.

The whole situation would have imploded after a year or two without expansion.

>>18141752
>Lebensraum had already been acquired after the fall of Poland
not the extent to which they wanted

>The invasion of the USSR was primarily pragmatic and strategic to aquire resources to continue the war and/or end Britain's will to continue the war because they were betting on USSR to be a factor
haha

You need to read German language primary sources and Richard Overy instead of this reddit Tooze history, Hitler was not forced to start WW2 over an impending economic collapse driven by excessive rearmament spending. WW2 was designed and started over Hitler's ideology of Lebensraum.

>>18142038
>must have known that their ambitions against the USSR would never have been acceptable for Britain and France.
Why not? Everyone thought the Imperial powers had grown up and learned their lesson, they werent players anymore and standing against industrial powers like the US, USSR, and Germany (US esp) was entirely fruitless.
Look at how the US punished both of them with ethnic genocide of their native populations.
They got bodied by Germany, lost to Soviet color revolutions, and were completely subjugated.
only an idiot would have thought Britian and France suicidal, unfortunately a broken clock is right twice a day and Britian and France DID commit suicide over Danzig.
>carves up the USSR
What does this even mean?
Hitler wanted to regime change the east not "carve up" the USSR.
There werent enough Germans to work the fields or the mines, and if Slavs were enslaved they wouldnt exist in large enough numbers to be effective slaves, the German official policy was outreach and pumping up Slav numbers and using their fast and decisive conquest during Barbarossa to liberate the people without much toil.
The Germans actually did this in Ukraine, outlawing abortion and fast tracking land ownership by Ukrainian ethnics.
Cities in Ukraine were wealthier during the war than a decade before or after.
>broke the state economy
you're just an idiot.

>>18142111
>the extent which they wanted
do you have a source on their Lebensraum timeline or if they would risk war for Lebensraum?
The SOLE time Hitler talked about it in a policy meeting was in reference to Catharine the Great and Kaiser Wilhelm having plans to expand existing German populations in Siberia.
>ideology of Lebensraum
PLEASE cite a single source where a timeline is given for Lebensraum.
No one goes to war over "we need space".
Germany wasnt even at its own population carrying capacity, let alone enough to fill out Poland, and certainly not enough to fill out the USSR.
The ONLY time numbers are given is when Hitler talked about how it would require over a hundred million Germans living in Germany before any designs on Lebensraum could manifest meaningfully.
Germany did not even have 90m people.

The actual reason the war started is because Poland and Germany couldnt find a way to de-escalate.
the driving factor being Danzig, not lebensraum.
The war against the USSR was driven by a need for resources, not Lebensraum.

>>18142111
Which book by overy says Barbarossa wasn't motivated by acquiring resources? Overy is the one historian who argues that Hitlers decisions were less ideological and more pragmatic you moron.

Tooze argues that Hitler was forced to start ww2 because of s constant budget deficit that was leading to hyperinflation, that was literally not what I wrote. Do you have reading disability? Or just retarded?
I was arguing strictly Barbarossa, and my argument wasn't monetarily which is what Tooze focus on, my argument was RESOURCES, more specifically FOOD, but also OIL and RUBBER and METALS.

Doesn't fascism pretty much require invasion?

If you're Adolf Hitler, a strongman authoritarian who boasts about how Germany is the best, how are you going to make international business deals? Deals require some give and take; Germany gets some resources, but has to give up something. But, fascism is all about the taking, and not the giving. So, invasion is required to take what you need.

>>18142132
>Hitler wanted to regime change the east not "carve up" the USSR.
Yes he did, and so did Kaiser Wilhelm. It was in Germanys interest to break up the Russian empire / Soviet Union because once it modernized abd industrialized it would dwarf Germany and Germany would become subservient to this mega state.
Imperial Germany merely wanted a new eastern Europe of German loyalist states carved out from the Russian Empire, which included Poland, albeit Poland would be further east than what Versailles later created.
NS Germany wanted the same breakup of the USSR but these states would be basically governed by Germany and locally by a German landowning aristocracy over the remaining population being serfs. It was going to be Germanys own Rhodesia/India in the east, primarily because Hitler was more concerned about achieving autarky than Kaiser Wilhelm had been, because Hitler wanted a Germany that couldn't be held hostage by a foreign navy. He wanted an empire like Britain and France, but one which Germany could actually control since they couldn't control an overseas empire if war broke out.

>>18142160
Fascism is nothing of what you just wrote. There is nothing in fascist doctrine that calls for expansionism or autarky. That's national-socialism.

>>18142191
Fascism is an ideology of losers. The two biggest fascist countries were a sore loser of WWI and a "muh vittoria mutilata" victim. It was only natural they went after their neighbors in much the same way a kid bring a gun to school to exercise revenge against his bullies

>>18142215
Several fascist states that weren't "losers" either. Such as Metaxas and Salazars and Francos regime.
It also doesn't change the fact that you have virtually no idea what fascism actually is yet you insist on having an outspoken opinion on it.

>>18142231
>Metaxas and Salazars and Francos regime
None of them were fascist
>what fascism actually is
I don't need your list of criteria to know who and for what reason fascism appeals to

>>18142191
>That's national-socialism.
Fascism and national-socialism intertwined.

>>18141159 (OP)
They remembered they had other demands