It's basically gatekeeping, give some actual fucking advice like "do gesture", "practice values" or "mix imagination drawing and with your studies"

4 damn years of my life, just drawing like everyone told me to, no guidance, doing proko and getting to the point I became a literal printer, all copying, that btw being able to copy and learning to draw is DIFFERENT, guess how you can learn to copy? By JUST DRAWING like an idiot

That is until I met a guy that unlike most retarded innate talented guys that couldn't explain shit about what they did by instinct told me what to do, I still suck ass, but people need to let others there's grinders that need to bust their ass to draw like the japanese, and there's people that draw twice a month and get a masterpiece for whatever bullshit reason, help the people you mfs, if you cannot explain what you do to draw, then you are just another innate talent baby that spent no effort trying to get good.

Permabegs exist because of a community filled with talent babies unable to explain art like toddlers, go ask Dave Rapoza and he will tell you he did the same fucking study 18 times till he got it right.

>>7625667 (OP)
ok

>don't "just draw"
yes, tell them to stop

>>7625667 (OP)
>doing proko
That's something that didn't work for you and you continued to do it? Just draw works. It is basic, it is easy to understand, it's self explanatory, it's a perfect meme that help countless artists through the 20+ years. I didn't know I need to also explain tp you to draw what you like, and what you like creates a dopamine cycle, that keeps you at just draw, secret techniques of all the masters is just draw. However, did you force yourself to like drawing things you don't even like? Was it strategy or ignorance? It's a very long paragraph to explain just draw to you. It should be common sense. Ultimately, if you just draw for 10,000 hours, because it feels good doing it, which should be common sense, you eventually become very good at drawing, it's really just draw, it's not even that hard or complicated, the more you just draw, the more good you draw. So... just draw.

Another guy who doesn't understand that "just draw" is the best advice for most beginning artist who will draw only once a week. They devour all kinds of resources and then are afraid to make mistakes. They should just draw first.

>>7625675
>>7625676
Absolutely, just draw always works am I right?

The issue here is that they really just draw but there's no path, and because of that they have to relearn stuff and basically waste more time, you just have to give basic tips and that's it, better than constantly telling others to draw and if they don't get good it's because they don't do enough

>>7625680
It works even if it is a shit drawing... Infinite monkey theorem, given enough time of just draw, you too could become Michaelangelo. It's a meme that is so simple, so elegant, one of my favorite, just draw. It's so short, but I made it longer for you now, do you have better understanding of just draw? Ready to just draw?

>>7625684
I mean I could post a million artists that just draw without all their lives, for 20 years or so, and never really improved, because it doesn't work like that, doing the same thing expecting different results won't work out, I personally tried a lot of stuff not just proko, but at the end of the day I do believe it's the worst possible advice that needs to be complemented at least

>>7625680
Cris doesn't 'just draw' though. It would work for him too if he actually did it. If you see shit like this you know they have low pencil mileage despite being 'at it' for many years. Same goes for CWC.

>>7625685
>could post a million artists
Try posting 3. I'm curious if they intended to get good, I'm guessing not. (Sami way and co. )

>>7625685
Million of happy artists just drawing, and still drawing. You whining. See the problem? I repeat, millions of happy artists just drawing, when will you just draw?

>>7625686
Trust me man, besides the guy on the image I know several artists that are the same and manage to do far more pieces than me, and I usually draw 4 hours daily, I usually try to do more hours if possible to compete

>>7625692
Not whining more like tired of people not willing to help and call people lazy when they try their best by themselves and get no help and no improvement cuz the best advice they get is "just draw"

Imho, it’s because you guys don’t actually like to draw. So when following that advice, you wouldn’t actually draw a a lot, and you wouldn’t try to improve your drawings. For people who actually like drawing, “just draw” is more than enough.

>>7625667 (OP)
>how do i get better at cooking?
>by cooking
>NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T SAY THAT THAT'S PREPOSTEROUS
Be quiet child.

>>7625696
https://x.com/caspergibbs_1?t=oTc38qZWt_8joFn-JQEpZg&s=09

An artist from twitter, admirable effort really, hopefully he is doing alright, sometimes it's hard to grind like that

>>7625697
If you try your best and you don't succeed...just draw.
https://youtu.be/k4V3Mo61fJM?si=oigSTRJ4VIXcELTw

>>7625699
>How do I get better at cooking?
>Hey I'm someone with experience let me give you some actual tips and what I would have done as a begginer
>Thanks
It's that simple but the average artist is too autistic to communicate with others

/ic/ fails to understand this statement on a daily basis

>>7625698
This.

>>7625697
If you feel this way, will you pay me to teach you how to just draw?

>>7625696
That's not much drawing. The top stack is like 2 months. The lower half is so neat I suspect no drawing on those pages.

>>7625667 (OP)
Permabegs exist because of low iq.
There's no helping you people.

>>7625708
Oh so you want money, wasn't the art community about soul and helping others? C'mon now no way you pull a proko, the guy shat himself drawing a kangaroo

Help others and that will help you improve your art as well

>>7625711
I mean that's without counting the digital stuff and stuff they didn't posted so that's a lot more unseen art, that's just the best stuff to post

>>7625696
I think that is how much I drew in a month during my schooling days. Algebra? fuck off I draw ninjas on the pie. Find X, I draw a ninja with the X and write you can't find me. That just me drawing on my exam papers. Needless to say, I didn't do very well in school.

>>7625700
>admirable effort really
Not really. Looks like he did warmups in his sketchbooks. Low mileage.

>>7625729
You might be right, MAYBE, if people gave him more tips to improve instead of saying "just draw" it would be real different right? Not real milage since it's all studies and a couple of sketches

What you just did is called criticism, and goes beyond the "just draw" meme

>>7625667 (OP)
The fact is, no one can really give you advice like "do gesture" or "practice values" because you suck at everything. And I don't mean that as a troll. You need to practice literally everything. So just pick something, anything. You don't need anyone to tell you what to do. If you can't identify problems with your artwork, and use the bare minimum amount of googling to find solutions, ON YOUR OWN, you're just not going to cut it, flat out.

Creativity is problem solving. Find problem, solve problem. Be creative.

>>7625737
In a day he did 4 'pages', about 2 loose drawings per page. it's not much. I saw a local pros sketchbook in person and holy shit did he draw so good damn much, it was like I was holding a historic artifact. More drawings in one sketchbook than that guy did in 4 years.

>>7625667 (OP)
IMO “just draw,” is bad advice because just drawing *anything* won’t get you very far, you have to specifically be trying new things. If you draw the same exact picture of a dragon 100 times, same angle, size, medium etc you aren’t going to improve that much. You need to be trying different dragons in different scenes, and sometimes creatures that aren’t dragons. For example, maybe this week you follow a series of tutorials on digital art to learn the program and only draw dragons on that. And then maybe next week you decide to experiment by only using crayons instead. Dragons are a combination of several different animals, so maybe you spend one week drawing horses and the next drawing snakes. Follow the tutorials of a mangaka on Monday, and then those of a classically trained western artist on Tuesday. You have to try new things. Though I will add the caveat that passion is important too, especially if you’re a hobbyist, so if you force yourself to keep doing things you don’t like you could burn out.
>picrel: my work
>>7625699
>makes nothing but box Kraft Mac’n’cheese
>”hey how do I get better at cooking and become a chef?”
>Just keep cooking bro
>continues to make nothing but box Kraft Mac’n’cheese

>>7625667 (OP)
>Gets told to "just draw"
>While he's just drawing he's evaluating what he's doing and seeing where he's falling short of his goals
>searches for mentors and sources that can help him
>drops sources that no longer align with goals
>all because the advice to just draw built a habit and set him on the path to improvement
You're welcome, friend. Glad we could help

>>7625749
Tl;dr: "just draw is bad advice, because some people are retarded"

Let's stop helping schizos and dumb people. They'll ngmi anyway.
People who need to be spoonfed and shown everything will never be able to improve meaningfully and will *at best* be able to copy somewhat competently.

>>7625749
>continues to make nothing but box Kraft Mac’n’cheese
Only a retard would do that. And he wouldn't be able to follow advice anyway.
>Let's try bake a cake, first we get the flou-What the fuck are you doing don't 'wash' the flour in the sink you god damn moron!

>>7625741
You definitely got me there, desu it's wild that I got into art while I'm not a creative person, i literally wish there was an instruction manual for art and everything was as straight forward as solving an equation

Just something to tell me exactly what to do in each situation, because you are right, creativity is usually thinking outside the box, and tutorials and such are just a help not the whole rule, the person with the creative mind is the one that makes the most out of that help

>>7625754
You would have to be a genius right away to find the right to do art that easily, not even pro artist think they are in the right path, even kim Jung gi and Murata had their doubts

>>7625758
Tbh it's wild*
idk why it says desu

>>7625715
You want a tip? Go commission an artist what you like, and learn from the artist, ask the artist to show you the sketch, and during the sketching process, ask the artist how he do this and that. And be upfront with the artist telling him that you are commission him to learn. Honesty is the best policy, Asian culture or not. Everyone loves Honesty until it is about their ego, looks, identity, or sexual appeal.

learning to draw is very simple. most artists who you look up to just drew what they loved, thought "hm <thing> could be better" studied, applied it to their work, repeat a few hundred/thousand times. if they went through tutoring or an extended period of learning it was well after they had a joyful, authentic art practice established. this is what just draw means, but it hinges on the assumption that you enjoy drawing and have a reason to draw.

the biggest issue beginners on ic have is not having an actual creative practice to receive all that fundamental grinding. the truth is that the only way to get good at making the pictures you want to make is making the pictures you want to make and studying for no more than half your drawing time. this should be intuitive but to the average virgin INTP inkcel its too esoteric and they probably cringe at the thought of making work joyfully, they need to grind 3 million boxes before they are ready, then they try to draw a cute anime girl, force needless fundamentals on it and produce uncanny leftbrained garbage, then think "oh i just need more mindnumbing fundamental grinding!!" no your issue is that you've lost the plot and forgotten to be a human fucking being, your technical skill matters but it always comes second

how about you make like 10 fucking picture you actually care about before they put you in the fucking ground hows that for art advice you fucking moron.

>>7625667 (OP)
Nigga how did you conclude that "just draw" means "do proko for 4 years"??
Just draw means that you should JUST FUCKING DRAW to learn drawing. It's usually told to howies and other tards who compain about bullshut, but can't pick up a fucking pencil.

>>7625667 (OP)
Christ I swear the advice 'just draw' is one of the greatest filters - not for artists, but for working out who is functionally retarded.

If you asked what's the best way to learn to drive, and someone responded by saying 'by driving', do you think they meant that you shouldn't learn how a car operates, or learning the road rules?
Just because you're so autistic that you can read between the leans in the most basic way, like any average person can, doesn't mean 'just draw' is bad advice.

Now stop bitching on the internet and get back to drawing, because watching videos, or reading books will not help you as much as the actual act of drawing, regardless of what it is you're studying at that time.

>>7625760
It's hard. For everyone. Geniuses frequently make great progress, but realize that they've put effort into something that doesn't align with their goals. Maybe they took bad advice and didn't realize it. You don't know what someone's feeling just because you're jealous of them. It could have been a blessing that you were on a path that was a struggle, maybe you avoided developing a sunk-cost fallacy. All we can do is evaluate where we personally are at. You've got the opportunity to work on a skill you care about and you're making some level of progress. Most people don't get that.

>>7625667 (OP)
Just draw beglet.

This hobby has a ton of well poisoning but it's all necessary.

>>7625785
You need 85 to 115 IQ to drive safely. You need 50 to 70 IQ to draw. I can't believe I have to explain to people about just draw. Even retards know how to draw. What is wrong with our zoomers? It can't be right? If you have 50 to 70 IQ you could draw even if it is badly, it is still a drawing. And you probably need 80 IQ to use 4chan so wtf do these people have, just draw is a simple meme.

>>7625667 (OP)
Basically correct. But you temper it with some of >>7625741
His conclusion is wrong, though. "Just draw" is a dismissal. Its not good advice, its a response that both protects the ego of the artist and is a way to get people who are really bad to stop asking him/her.
By asking an artist how to draw he has to actually think about it. He has to self-assess, and self-critique, in order to communicate it. A lot avoid doing so outside of specific contexts because of impostor syndrome from thinking they aren't ACTUALLY that good. Some make this worse by fearing that they are actually frauds and teaching someone will reveal the trick.

Others just suck ass at teaching. Some because they quite literally do not remember what it was like to be a beginner. Others because they got into a routine and stopped really improving themselves.

But the worst who say this do not know wtf they are doing. They get constantly frustrated by their own work. They cope by spamming drawings or the undo button until they get something that satisfied them. These are the stupid fucks who take 2 full workdays to do a LINEART of a single anime girl in a void, because they are doing the mental equivalent of an AI tard spamming generations. To them, "just draw" is the truth. It is ALL they do.

If you got actual advice, the first things a total beg should be learning are the group of skills called "line control", which have many exercises, and nipping bad habits like chicken scratch and ctrl-z spam in the bud before they cement.
This is pretty much universal, alongside a few other fundies. But the less total-/beg/ someone is, the harder helping is. Deeper analysis usually requires more time, and often some personal investment in the questioner from the person being asked. The more advanced and more specific advice requires a measure of understanding of what the person likes and what they are trying to do.

>>7625667 (OP)
How about "Pay attention to what you're drawing." instead of "just draw." you dumb mother fucker.

Higher /beg/ here who only got out of eternal /prebeg/ starting late into last year despite being at it for many years before that.

Just draw is decent advice, IF the /beg/ is willing to put in mileage, actually think about what he's doing, practice one thing at a time to a point where he's had to overcome a wall and then apply that to personal work.

In short: the /beg/ must have the correct mentality and basic knowledge of how to learn a skill. In that situation, " Just draw" is accurate

Nowadays, people often dont have the correct mentality for learning complex skills, because schools don't actually teach you how to learn stuff on your own and parents either have not time to do so or also havent learned it properly. In that case, you can join a class. The level of your instructor almost doesnt matter, so long as they are out of /beg/. Simply being around them will teach you the correct methods of analysing your own work, how a manageable workflow looks, what your results should look like.

I joined a class in october. We get together 2 times a week for 2-3 hours. On average, I have about 30 minutes to an hour of time daily that I can spend on drawing. Picrel is a quick portrait we did with pencil and chalc and charcoal pencil. A bit over half a year ago, this would have not been possible for me. It is still meager, but it's better than what I would have thought I could achieve a while back.

And again, my instructor doesnt have any notable works that I know of. Just the right kind of mindset and technical knowledge to reach consistent results and iterate upon the previous ones to steadily improve

>>7626202
What I was trying to illustrate with my own example, is that simply having an outside influence correct the way I learn, the "just draw, retard" became a truth for me

>>7625667 (OP)
>It's basically gatekeeping
Yes (and that's a good thing!)

>>7627691
Gatekeeping people out of spaces when they don't have the same values or creative drive to contribute is good.
Gatekeeping people of the skills and resources that allow them to make their own fucking space so I don't have to deal with them is BAD and retarded

>>7625667 (OP)
based

>>7625667 (OP)
The truth is that most people suck at giving advice specially here. People will tell you to do X but they won't tell you how and call you a howie if you ask. Is better to learn it all yourself honestly.

>>7627786
REAL.

In this thread I explained why I agree with OP’s opinion on the advice being bad and everyone just responded by saying that the hypothetical student would’ve just been r*tarded anyway.

>>7625667 (OP)
>Talent
>Dave Rapoza
Here's a fun fact, back in 2011 when that guy was learning to draw on the crimsomdaggers forum, there's a bunch of other guys doing the exact drawing routine he did, but only he made it as a pro artist from that hardcore bunch.
Talent is not an active skill, it's more like a passive skill, an exp booster, you lvl up faster.

>>7627786
>>7627952
We live in the age of AI. You don't even have to google to procure information, you can just ask a language model to spoon feed it to you. If you still need someone to tell you what to do what can you be other than retarded? Personal critique and advice only comes in play at a high level where you need (less so need to, but there can be actual value at this point) to actually analyze the output of the student and teach more abstract concepts. 99% of /ic/ are nowhere near that point

>>7627991
>cope
>video game metaphor

>>7627991
His point was that Rapoza can't teach you because he just grinds and internalizes shit. It's less "talent" and more that some people - from various factors both innate and how/where they're raised + what life experience they have - learn how to "see like an artist" even before they start to draw, while others have a mentality so divorced from viewing things that way that they have to build up a lot of the supporting connections to do it. And this also applies for just learning anything: Some people get exceptionally good at rote memorization of data, or are trained to do mental math, and so on. Others are really good at conversation, reading people and such. Some have high proprioception, some good fine motor control. Some are great at juggling short term info. Some learn to be methodical for diagnosing problems with things that aren't themselves.

Humans are complex because the world is complex. Understanding this allows you to teach others by gauging what areas people are good at and then using that as an anchor point to help them build up other skills without it being frustrating or tiresome.

>>7627996
Anon I am talking about practical things. There are things you can't learn from words on the internet. Sometimes you need to *see* how an artist does something. Like for example which brush or technique he uses to give a certain texture to a drawing, how he uses it etc. It's very easy to look at a drawing and tell someone to just copy it, but a beginner won't even know how to do that.

>>7625667 (OP)
your pic rel caught my attention, and then i zoomed on in and vomited my prawn meal before dipping the half digested prawn in the sauce (vomit) and eating it once more. shame on you

>>7625667 (OP)
Just draw is the best advice because its the most enjoyable and doesn't burn someone out studying shit they think they NEED to do before they can begin to work on art.

A just drawer will draw shit, see its shit, wonder and work on why its shit, look at tutorials to make it better, learn better techniques as they go, see what other artists are doing of their fandom and try that out, and just generally improve over time if they genuinely care to.

>>7625667 (OP)
>pic
that's not drawing, that's painting. "just draw" means draw lines.

i like your thread OP.

what is a howie?

>>7627991
I like this post.

>>7625680
do you have more like this?

>>7628801
A “howie” is a supposed person for whom any advice never works due to their misery and bad luck, or laziness and learned helplessness. It comes from some comic.

>>7627991
What’s Dave Rapoza’s routine? Anyone can give some context here?

>>7628801
>>7629176
Person who is so broken and prebeg (possibly mentally ill or a troll) that they endlessly ask "but how?" Hence, How-ie.

Just draw is good advice to get people to actually START DRAWING. It's mostly helpful for fags that want to get mountains of reference material and superfluous bullshit when you don't know what to work on until you START DRAWING. Just Draw is advice to actually gauge where you are and to critically analyze your work. How the fuck are we going to give you advice on how to improve something if you don't START DRAWING?

>people who barely draw don’t improve even after a decade
>that means just draw is terrible advice
i hate this board
do you people even like drawing to begin with

>>7629339
>>7629342
Please stop larping as expert. It’s disgusting.

Just drawing is not enough. If you want to improve you have to draw with a goal. With intention.

>>7625667 (OP)
>just draw is bad advice because I need instructors to help me just draw
Okay you draw things you like, things you dont like, things you see and think its interesting. Nobody knows what that is except for you.
You ever look at sketchbooks of people who got accept into art programs? Just do that. Even a child can figure it out why cant you? Also if you've never put in 8 hours art to draw then bother thinking about improving at art. You're a filthy casual and you've never taken drawing seriously.

'Just draw' is necessary but not sufficient in itself.

>>7629364
>>7629593
Correct. "Just draw" on its own results in this. Grinding without getting experience points and skillups, basically wasting time.
The "Just Draw" retard is either being like >>7625858
or plain isn't aware that they are doing things, mentally, beyond "just drawing" and zoning out.

>>7628000
One of the realest posts ITT, some anons use IQ as shorthand to describe all this, but it's a pretty common and relatable experience when you're aware of it. Like I used to be terrible at conversation until I studied commentary vids, podcasts, and sociable people, while broadening my general knowledge of what people like to talk about, or would find interesting. I reckon artists will go through a similar diagnostic process when they draw>study>draw, and that'll lead them to training those connections you mentioned.

Pretty much. When I was a preteen I wanted to learn to draw and never got real advice. My art classes in school were a complete waste of time and the teacher was a retard. I made 0 progress because I didn't understand the process at all. I drew only from imagination. I tried again on and off but made zero real progress until I understood much later I needed to use references and draw simple objects in 3d space. You can call me a retard but I'm not one, there's no reason this would be intuitive, you don't even understand what drawing really is until you do it for a while. I think hearing the term "symbol drawing" was most informative.

When "just draw" works it's survivorship bias. People that say that they got better by just drawing understate how complex their mental involvement in the process of learning really was and just because they naturally had the right approach doesn't mean it's gonna work for everyone.

Painting is a lot like any other skill you need experience to get good at. The difference is that becoming good at it is a very multidimensional and vague issue.
Compare that to sports where you try to aim at a target. After every attempt you get immediate feedback whether you missed or not and how much you've deviated from your target.
When practicing art you can spend hours on a drawing while not even being aware of how much you deviate from your goal or without even having a clear goal to begin with. It's why for observational drawing sight size method works so well for learning. You constantly get immediate feedback on every stroke.

So first and foremost is to have very clear goals. If they're too complex to tackle you have to learn identifying and subdividing problems that arise to get there.
The next thing is probably the most overlooked and understated.

Find ways to increase feedback quality and frequency constantly.

This is a lot less obvious than it sounds. It's simple for stuff like observational drawing. Just compare measurements after every stroke. When you draw from imagination how do you know your construction is flawed? You need to find a way to not just place primitive shapes but find a way to immediately get feedback on issues with proportion, perspective, and alignment immediately after placing them.

More than anything this mindset of looking for ways to improve the feedback loop while learning is what's gonna get you consistent results in the long run.

i don't understand how this is so hard for you people. "just draw" is an admonishment to stop worrying about finding the perfect course, the perfect book, the perfect brush, that elusive silver bullet that will magically make you good at art.
you're supposed to draw, fail, then find out how to do better next time. how hard is it to google "how to draw a head" when you fuck up drawing a head? i have to wonder if you're even interested in the arts if you're not willing to expend even a little bit of creativity towards solving problems, instead preferring to have your hands held the entire way. if you can't figure out the basic process for learning a new skill, then clearly you lack the mental faculties necessary for successful drawing.

>>7631738
>>7631790
>>7631792
Please stop larping.

>>7625667 (OP)
No.
I will keep telling them to just draw because if they still can't figure it out they're just not cut it to be an arrisy

If I want something handed 2 u go bowl with the lanes up kid

>>7625696
>pic
I wonder what this guy is up to today

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_kmgixe4wk

>>7625667 (OP)
behold, my abomination ;_;

>>7625667 (OP)
Have you gone through (learned and practiced) all the fundies untill you can more or less understand them.
After that

Learn from tutorials/books you havent seen b fore, and try it out

After that try and deconstruct how other people made their works

After that. Memory drawing, you can glance on occasion.
but do not measure or trace directly, . Now try and make the same thing at a different angle (with the same reference.

Do from head only drawings

Drawing will require brainpower, the more you practice, the more efficiently you will use your brainjuce. Meaning more can be allocated to pay attention to comp, mistakes , collor harmonuly, planning ecc.

Ask fer critique so you train your eye.

Being good at jumping allows you to do a backflip easyer, but you still need to practice backflips

Draw to learn.