Thread 7715372

Can someone help me understand the appeal of the anime style among so many young artists? I'm an old dude and I'm kinda unsure why this specific style has gotten so big lately. I don't know if any major Western artists in my generation (gen X) who started learning how to draw with this style.

>>7715372 (OP)
Pyw

>>7715372 (OP)
Japan has the best art culture, plus anime has cute girls.

>>7715372 (OP)
It's just cute and expressive, strikes a good balance between cartoony and realistic. Without breaking the art direction or particular style of a comic or show or movie, it can be silly, or deformed, or very serious and the switching between all of these things are seamless and easily readable.

>>7715372 (OP)
People who grew up post-90s mostly grew up with Anime as Saturday morning cartoons. By that point western cartoons had largely become relegated to cheap children's TV exclusively. Anime has a much longer shelf life and the most popular shows are for teens-adults, not small kids, so it never ended up with the same childish connotations that western cartoons have.

>>7715391
All of that makes sense, but isn't true of the Disney style as well? Or the American superhero comics style (Jack Kirby etc)? I find that many of /ic/'s most experienced artists lean into the anime/manga style to some degree or another. Sometimes it's just 20%, like the eyes and head shape are stylized but everything else is naturalistic. But it definitely feels like there's a generational gap and I'm not sure why.

>>7715394
Okay, that makes sense, but I notice that many artists who are good at strict naturalism also often stylize their figures in the anime/manga way, even in contexts that are far from cartoons.

>>7715395
>Disney style
Which one? There is no unified "Disney" style, you have modern Pixar style, late 90s early 2000s realism (think Iron Giant/Titan AE/Atlantis The Lost Empire/Treasure Planet), and classic Disney. Pixar is soulless slop and the other two are extremely niche.
>American superhero comics
They've stagnated for half a century thanks to Hay's Code, the Marvel and DC duopoly, and the MCU which is funded by the military as a form of propaganda.

Anime is more relatable, even to westerners.

>>7715395
>it definitely feels like there's a generational gap and I'm not sure why.
Japan has been the leading animation and comics country since like half a century. People got tired of just reading super hero comics or mickey mouse.

>>7715396
That's moreso just anime being anime. Especially in the 80s and 90s, anime had very detailed hand painted backgrounds. The art style is just fairly realistic in general, especially compared to western cartoons. Human proportions, very little exaggeration, often a calm almost slideshow-esque cinematography style, typical japanese naturalism, it just lends itself well to blending seamlessly with realism. It's gotten a bit flanderized as of late, but it still holds on to a lot of the old grounded design principles.

>>7715396
Here's an example of what I mean.

>>7715400
Okay fair enough, but everyone was copying the classic Disney style when I was a kid. Hell, even manga started out as Disney-influenced.

>>7715405
I get all that, but something must motivate artists to stylize their characters this way instead of just using straight naturalism.

>>7715395
>but isn't true of the Disney style as well? Or the American superhero comics style (Jack Kirby etc)?
No. With western cartoons that do deformed gags or facial expressions the characters at rest are already weirdly designed. There's no balance. Lack of balance also reflects on the story, so think of something like like Ed, Edd, and Eddy, the anime version of that show would have some great serious slice of life or coming of age moments little breaks away from the comedy that give us character development and story arcs, the art would have been more relatable and eye catching, again balanced between cartoony ad realistic, especially when it comes to the female characters, the anime version of Nazz (the main love interest of the show) would be visibly feminine and attractive, she still be talked about till this day, girls would cosplay her, guys would wear her face on their shirts or use it as their profile pictures online. Western cartoons tend to be consistently one thing, often times comedic even when they are telling a continuous story. Something like Batman Beyond or Static Shock would come off as too serious. Both of those shows are very good but they fail to capture the audience's imagination with their serious plots and atmosphere. Both of those shows have teenage male protagonists, juggling saving the town/world and maintaining their normal life and relationships but the shows can often times come off as preachy, like after school specials on how bad drugs are and what to do if you're being bullied by a gang, if the character is a minority there's always an episode on racism, just too much real world stuff that ruins the escapism people want to feel while being entertained.

>>7715418
>cont.
But then we have anime shows that are also serious but the stories are so far out there, no reasonable person would fail to see the genius level of playfulness involved. Stuff like Cowboy Bebop, or Samurai Champloo, or Gantz, or Death Note are all serious, mature, well written stories but they don't sacrifice the fantasy elements, and despite being mature, they maintain a youthful spirit within the story telling. Disney veers too far into being cute and childish. Jack Kirby's art is too stiff. Again western cartoons tend to have no balance. There are two western cartoons that actually understood all of what I'm typing - The Boondocks, and Avatar The Last Airbender - They employed the anime style within both the story telling and art and it worked extremely well, AND they represent extremes, with The Boondocks being way more western or American in its story and world building, and The Last Airbender being more eastern or Asian inspired.

>>7715419
>Jack Kirby's art is too stiff
And just to reiterate, from my very first reply here >>7715391
the stiffness and lack of expressiveness is the main issue. Teen Titans on Cartoon Network also tried to strike a balance and did it pretty well because of it.

>>7715415
anon, the artist just painted "TV chinese". You're conflating it with anime stylization, but it's just an asian beauty standard

>>7715372 (OP)
It's just better

>>7715372 (OP)
Because most people in modernity have been turned into children by design and cartoons are for children.

>>7715372 (OP)
its a fetish

>>7715372 (OP)
Anyone who cared about drawing during the last 25 years (age 40 and younger) has been impressed by anime/manga at some point. You’re just living under a rock

>>7715372 (OP)
what other drawing styles are there, currently, in popular media?
western animation has been relegated to children slop or edgy "adult" humor brainrot
american comics are still american comics, but somehow worse (?)
euro comics are still going strong, but I don't think they have much of a direct cultural impact; some of your favorite artists' favorite artists probably love them, though
anime/manga can look really good and is often attached to interesting worlds and compelling stories in a variety of genres
so yeah, no shit, that's what people growing up in the last 20/30 years have consumed and have been inspired by

>>7715437
before anime got popular, young artists would copy disney and superheroes.

Cartoons in the west were never respected as a serious art form even though in the 90s and early 00s we had great cartoons that could be called seinen. They were enjoyable by kids, teens, and adults. Think of all the justice league stuff. The kids cartoons were great too and beautifully animated, we will never get an Ed Edd n Eddy ever again.

Eventually the market shifted and got efficient at making more money with less effort thanks to a group I cannot name, and cartoons became either only for toddlers (cheap generic crap with no soul) or for twentysomething year old trannies (horrendously animated but good stories) or for retards (generic dude makes pedophile joke)

>>7715556
>>7715496
>>7715418
>>7715405
>>7715395
I'm not going to be a weird elitist and pretend that anime in general became "worse" or something like western cartoons and comics did through the decades, in the 1970-2020 period japanese animation was more or less the same in terms of quality, some shows were better animated some worse animated but overall they were all okay in respect to their time period.

That's not really what this complain is about, what really happened is that after 2020 anime stopped feeling..."special and exotic" if you guys know what I mean.

Like take any random old show, doesn't matter from when in the past, Heidi, FMA, Angelic Layer, Ojamajo Doremi, Candy Candy, Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica, Nanoha Lyrical,Soul Eater etc. - it always felt like you were watching a specifically Japanese media, something deliberately drawn/written by a Japanese mind and for a Japanese viewer.

Nowadays after around 2020 anime doesn't really like that at all, it feels soulless and made for some universal global audience. Stuff like Dandadan, or that Kagurabachi manga it doesn't have that same "specifically made in Japan for Japanese viewers" vibe to it.

It's just kinda boring to watch or read post-2020 japanese media when it doesn't deeply feel specifically Japanese in its idiosyncracy and its nature anymore.

why are you idiots responding? you really think a clueless old guy not interested in anime waltzed his way to /ic/ of all boards instead of /a/ where they’d kill him had he post the same thread?

it’s just another east vs west thread

>>7715563
I don't mean to use this as a lazy thought terminator, but I'm pretty sure that's just because you're here and now experiencing all the slop while you can pick all the good cherries from the past
it's actually interesting that you picked 2020 as the cutoff date, because I'm pretty sure I've been having this exact conversation since the late 2000s
granted, the capacity for producing soulless slop has definitely increased, and will probably be overwhelming once AI starts replacing more and more people in the assembly line

>>7715372 (OP)
A lot of the modern comic art is ugly or dogshit. I'm not a fan of a lot of the modern anime/manga art either but I feel that the mid tier is more appealing on the Jap side of things.

>>7715437
>westoid
>no art
>no people
>mo culture
>no future

>>7715416
>but something must motivate artists to stylize their characters this way instead of just using straight naturalism.
Animation.

>>7715476
I’ll rock you under with my dick faggot.

>>7715372 (OP)
>I'm kinda unsure why this specific style has gotten so big lately.
Manga and Anime are influential among artists because they 're the last bastion of largely independent works seeing financial success. Western comics publishers have gone all-in on capeshit written and drawn by a million different people with overcomplicated neverending bullshit plots with no good entry points, so they've lost their grip on young artists.

another anon had a good breakdown but in summary, anime and manga are highly variable, and this variability both in art and story has led it to grab a larger audience than western hyperfocus slop. when was the last time you saw or heard of a western comic/cartoon that was simply a romcom? or an ecchi? what about a psychological thriller? horror? almost all western comic/TV cartoons are either action or comedy, and if theyre action theyre the typical marvel/dc style, if theyre comedy theyre the typical 'make it as ugly as possible that will be funny' style. anime/manga mixes and matches art style with story and has works across every genre.
also they tend to not have any moral baggage. just look at how westerners reacted to the frieren demon debate. the west has fallen and become ugly due to its culture (or disregard thereof). the last time our 'art' was good was the belle epoque.

>>7716018
modern western philosophically doesn't believe in evil. the very concept has been deconstructed to the point that there is no objective moral evil in western thought. it's all just subjective shit now, every villain has been humanized and made relatable, reanalyzed as actually victims of society, or toxic masculinity or some equally retarded bullshit. it has to be possible for anyone to become them. they can't just be objectively evil because they are objectively evil.

>>7715372 (OP)
anime follows some very specific design principles that are universal
simplification of what's not important, exaggeration of what is
they do this in a specific way, that lots of artist found trendy but big guys isn't anything new

>>7715372 (OP)
It's easier for younger people to visualize and more forgiving if you mess up. Of course when you try to actually do something at a serious level and go off-script you realize that you can't skip fundamentals and it becomes extremely difficult.

>>7716080
One of his sons died, anon. Give the man a break.

>>7715372 (OP)
Culture comes from elites to the masses. The problem with the west is that our elites gave up their inheritance and started indulging in anti-art and anti-aesthetics. This doesn’t appeal to younger people because it’s boring, over played and over intellectual.

>>7716080
I'm here partially to correct the massive weebs here but anime is designed for global audiences and is probably the most dissimilar to traditional Japanese aesthetics or even transfers unique manga art styles well. The ones that stand out in-terms of art do the same techniques comic book artists in America focused on which also don't translate 1:1 in animation.

>>7716087
This is an actually accurate answer. Japan has invested more money than ever into making sure they appear beautiful to the world which means no matter how many internal problems they suffer no youth has any negative impression on them.

Somehow in anime, characters suddenly going chibi with exaggerated reactions for comedic scenes don't even seems jarring while attempting that on western works would immediately look weird.

>>7716059
the victim mindset (whether it's self-victimizing or portraying criminals/villains as victims) is truly booming in the west. it's pathetic and doesnt count as an excuse for degeneracy (though they firmly believe it does)

>>7716098
Why is this??

>>7716098
the equivalent is characters going rage mode and turning into bigheaded monsters or something.

>>7716080
This is the most accurate reason in this thread.

>>7716098
For some reason chinese and korean “anime” still can’t pull this off well. It just looks weird. I don’t know what causes this.

>>7716089
lots of 90's and 2000's anime that found success in the west had similar proportions to what could be the "anglo ideal". Seinen stuff like Berserk, Hokuto no Ken, GitS were wildly popular here. So the question I've had is why haven't western artists pulled from these as inspiration? Why aren't techniques like speed lines more common? I can think of a handful of artists like Joe Mad, Ottley, J Scott Campbell who sort of drew in a "manga inspired" way but it only really extends to making the eyes larger.

>>7715563
Many of the people who worked on those shows still work in the industry after 2020? Any judgement of what "feels Japanese" will be arbitrary anyway if you don't understand the language or the creative lineage behind a given work. Also it's silly to take something adapted from jump like Fujimoto’s chainsaw man and complain that the story doesn't feel “Japanese” like Urobuchi’s work who comes from VN writing.

The west needs to look at Japanese creators as actual people working together instead of an amorphous entity that doesn't exist in reality. There is no Anime Inc. that controls the feel of all anime in current year.

>>7715567
It’s funny to realize that non-Japanese speakers in the west had these same conversations ever since anime was on the radar in the west.

I just found out that one of the board rules is "Only constructive criticism will be accepted. Rude or offensive comments will result in a ban."
kek

>>7716981
Probably less aging and more young demographics means that they aren't as familiar with their older works compared to places like Japan. Though I would say both are suffering from a decline right now in-terms of quality the Japanese market is more accepting of things that are "outdated."

>>7716592
Even the SD/chibi art still has complexity so it's not a hard drop in quality but a brief change to another developed artstyle, just one that's lighter in tone.
>>7716944
Korean/Chinese cartoons inspired by anime still don't have developed enough styles so it looks uncanny. A fun exercise is to zoom in on Korean/Western cartoon model sheets and compare the line/shape complexity to literally any Japanese drawn anime settei.

>>7716981
(((westerners))) for some reason see anime and cartoons as two completely different things. Like, it's a crossover you couldn't even do in Space Jam. You can't make a manga inspired comic book. They'd call that drawing a manga.

>>7717059
Shows aren't made by one person, however. Nor is everyone who works on a show equally talented or visionary. Just because you worked on Spirited Away doesn't make you Miyazaki.

>>7717080
>Shows aren't made by one person, however. Nor is everyone who works on a show equally talented or visionary.
Yeah, that is the point. Different people have different skills and collective works depend on so many factors it's insane to lump everything past an arbitrary cutoff point together as not being talented or high quality anymore. Especially when the people didn't disappear and their skills didn't get worse with more experience and them honing their craft.

>>7716981
>So the question I've had is why haven't western artists pulled from these as inspiration?
It's objectively a harder technique to draw in than western cartoons.

Also the social pressure to conform to certain (((agendas))) is too high.

Anything hard hitting that shows true masculinity in a contemporary context and the protection of cute and feminine characters is going to be problematic.
Anything showing beauty in the normalcy of life, SoL's like K-On for example would never be allowed in a culture designed to destroy all normalcy.

>>7717097
>Anything showing beauty in the normalcy of life, SoL's like K-On for example would never be allowed in a culture designed to destroy all normalcy.
I'm fairly conservative but the vast majority of anime is porn bait and most Japanese see people watching the cartoons in Japan as weirdos. Also K-On and stuff doesn't have success because it's neither relatable to the human experience nor interesting.

>>7717105
>vast majority of anime is porn bait
You don't watch anime or aren't arguing in good faith.
>K-On doesn't have success
Kek

>it's neither relatable to the human experience
Any well written story with developed characters is going to be relatable in some way and tell you something about the human experience. Part of the problem is that Western people are under such psychological attack they can't relate to the human experience in the first place or see art as something more than straightforward propaganda.

>interesting
Personal enjoyment, i.e. feelings, are't a good metric to evaluate the worth of art by. As a conservative you should know this. I don't need to explain this on an art board.

>>7717124
>You don't watch anime or aren't arguing in good faith.
The popular ones are flooded by fujos or coomers. Anime is popular because people who watch cartoons are primarily kids or losers and since losers no longer seek to improve themselves but rather get instant gratification most shows that are popular are about teenagers who are flirted as being gay and chicks with giant tits who shelters emotionally and physically weak protagonists for no reason. It is far from the human experience both in ideal or function and thinking anything else as being responsible for its popularity is delusional. Go to a convention if you think I'm wrong.

>>7717132
>the popular ones
>popular
>popularity
Based goalpost shifting and appeal to "popularity" in the west.

>It is far from the human experience both in ideal or function
Exactly what I said about modern westerners being unable to appreciate art. If it's not straightforward propaganda they can't comprehend it. They fall back to stereotypes or "critiquing" low hanging fruit because they aren't skilled to do anything beyond the very surface level of research or critique.

If your lazy worldview keeps dominating the west will never make any skilled, meaningful or deep art again.

>>7717097
Slice of life is for people who like to watch other people have friends.

>>7717156
>Based goalpost shifting and appeal to "popularity" in the west.
Read the thread title and come back. Even ignoring that most anime produced recently that makes it as TVs is mostly just porn. The only difference is the demographics between Japanese and Western animation are the audiences they pander to. Western animation appeals to brain rot kids and millennials with constant nostalgia goggles while Japanese animation panders to brain rot teenagers and weebs with inferiority complexes.
>If your lazy worldview keeps dominating the west will never make any skilled, meaningful or deep art again.
Tell me what about your moeslop talks about? Does it speak about the metaphysical principles that guide this world? Does it even talk about the beauty of music and how certain melodies are designed to welcome people into something eternal and beyond our flesh? No. It's a bunch of retarded looking girls bickering about petty shit and doing a rock band. None of you weebs even know anything about eastern philosophy let alone anything about Japan.

>>7717171
lol.

>>7715416
I think that which can't be explained by the stylistic benefits of an anime style can be explained by mere personal preference. For the vast majority of young beginner artists their love for art and drawing came about from anime. Anime just has a certain visual appeal in it's neotony and measured cartooniness.

[spoiler]Personally, I think the reason why anime has caught on as of late is because it's for losers, for social outcasts, for 'otaku', and ever seen the catastrophic decline in American communities & third spaces, the increased popularity of phones/laptops/personal computers, and the killing blow of COVID lockdowns, way more people, especially young people, have become shut-ins. In pretty much every possible metric young Zoomers/Gen Alpha are more 'loserish' than their forebears in the aughts, 90s and 80s. Less casual sex, less drinking, less partying, less going out, fewer hobbies, fewer bands, fewer concerts, etc. Anime is for children, and the society has been trending towards infantilizing art in response to this for a very long time.[/spoiler]

>>7715372 (OP)
What fucking year is it? My art teachers were asking this twenty years ago. At least at that point manga wasn’t outselling the entire western comics industry (kids books don’t count). At this point it’s like asking why more people watch football than hockey.

Also everyone from Adam Warren to Joe Mad, shit I’d even say guys like Humberto Ramos and J Scott Campbell, we’re influence by manga/anime line work and design aesthetics.

Ffs the early 2000s were heavily influenced by Japanese media in general.

>>7715936
Anime is not a culture but crap, describe the plot of any modern anime and reread the crap you wrote

>>7717182
There is no philosophy or depth in anime, the maximum is the creation of an aesthetic image that is empty from the inside, emptiness and not art

>>7718207
There are some, but those were made a long time ago and died off around the early 00s. Japanese are in general terrible philosophers but are great at engineering what's already present. Unfortunately what's present right now is mass industrialization and detachment from the human experience.

>>7718250
For whatever the entire seinen demographic just got zapped from existence. Nowadays, even things that get labeled as seinen are actually just pretentious shonen. You cannot tell me that One Punch Man is fucking seinen.

>>7718258
Even most seinens (at least the prominent ones) are pretty mediocre understanding of Western philosophers and Enlightenment era ones at that. That being said they are leagues better than any manga that gets adapted to an anime nowadays.

>>7715372 (OP)
>why this specific style has gotten so big lately.
>lately
i am sure that western artists have been influenced by anime since the late 90s
and for newer artists, we grew up with anime all around us

>>7717298
>less casual sex is actually le bad

>>7715372 (OP)
It's not just the style, the most important factor that influenced the popularity was the Japanese 2D animation that was always more advanced than the American, the characters have no realism, which gives them the freedom to create impossible expressions and aspects, while the realism in the anime is focused on the objects and the background, this creates a perfect contrast of fantasy without losing coherence, the stories are based on ordinary people who gain relevance with the course of history, instead the Western style focused a lot on the realism of the characters creating rigidity, stories too boring with muscular characters who had superpowers and that ended in political backgrounds, another thing that destroyed the Western style more precisely the American in the 90s, was saturation of comics with poor drawing quality and worthless collectible runs, after the 2000s American comics were absorbed by Hollywood cinema and then by Disney garbage, with all this, the Japanese never made an effort to popularize the Anime in the West, its entire market was and continues to be primarily local. Those who went looking for anime were American investors who brought most of the series to the West and translated them. Since the 1980s, like Carl Macek with Robotech (Macross), and currently Crunchyroll are examples of this. That's why many series and games that are distributed in Japan are not available in the West nor are they translated.

In itself, it's not that you're old from Generation X, but rather that as a teenager that you were at that time, you completely ignored everything that happened before your eyes.

>>7719153
>stories too boring with muscular characters
In anime it's boring stories without muscular characters, most of it, SoL is crap, same drama and romance, boring mecha etc.

>>7720805
>in anime it's boring stories without muscular characters, most of it, SoL is crap, same drama and romance, boring mecha etc.

Anime stories are usually shit in the first place. You don't need muscles to tell a good story, but at least they make the characters look unique.

>>7720805

Almost all anime is pretty bad, but the ones that are actually good are generally extremely good.

There just really aren't any western cartoons on the same level.

>>7720824
The only good shows are the ones with the muscular characters. A ton of them look worse than the entirety of Dragon Ball as well. I get your argument regarding less focus on realism but the real thing is that anime was better marketed towards teenagers while cartoons where mostly seen as a children's thing growing up.

>>7720805
Japanese 2D animation break the ass to American animation, whether you like it or not.

>>7715437
This mentality is why the western art industry the American one specifically is in a state of constant decline

>>7716981
>Why aren't techniques like speed lines more common?
Wasn't there some video where some senior marvel artists says that he tells the new guys not to do stuff like that? It might just be the old heads in these publishers and studios holding stuff back

It looks visually appealing. Cute, cool, edge, whatever it is they nail it every single time. Japs still can't write though. Same with chinks.

>>7715372 (OP)
I say it's mostly because of exposure. Anime and Manga filled niches that the western industry was ignoring, that being actually mature animation (as opposed to the west's "mature" animation ala family guy or southpark), and a far greater variance in genres and stories in comics that the smaller companies and indies couldn't meet the demand of, and so the western audience kept being exposed to the art style within, and are now fond of said art style.

I'm sure there's plenty of people who would have been predisposed to liking the artstyle regardless, but I don't think it'd be as popular as it is now - people always forget how mocked and belittled it was initially, because people felt the eyes were far too massive (to gross proportions) and that the genders were hard to tell apart, and a whole bunch of other things.
Even the frequently mocked animation differences are mostly forgotten (or even celebrated) because of the level of exposure.

At some point anime and manga will be less popular and something else will be the new hotness, and it's possible that the artstyles anime and manga are known for will be looked at in a less favourable light again, becoming niche once again...
Probably not within our lifetimes though, lol.

>>7715418
>the anime version of Nazz (the main love interest of the show) would be visibly feminine and attractive, she still be talked about till this day
What, like they do with Marie?

I just flatly disagree with your assertion that there's a 'lack of balance' and that there needed to be slice of life moments and such in EEnE. It's a straight forward CARTOONISH comedy, that relies heavily on sight gags.
To adjust it so that have the 'balance' you're speaking off would change it's genre, and in my opinion, make an actively worse product.
A well designed character doesn't have to be cute, nor does an appealing character have to be attractive.
Elma Fudd is a short, ugly, bald man, and yet he's not hard on the eyes because he's a well designed appealing character.

>>7721199
>Japs still can't write though.
Who can write? What's considered as being able to write and why?

>>7721293
Uh, have you heard of a little known guy called Shakespeare?

>>7721327
>appeal to authority
So only Shakespear could write but you don't know why?

>>7721257
>At some point anime and manga will be less popular and something else will be the new hotness
source?

>>7721341
Holy shit you're a humourless sack of crap. Don't go to any parties, you'll ruin them.

>>7721346
>talks about entire nations' ability to not write but can't do it himself
>uhh... i was... just le joking! crying wojak.png
Concession accepted kek.

>>7721348
>talks about entire nations' ability to not write but can't do it himself
Wrong anon, fucko.
>uhh... i was... just le joking! crying wojak.png
Just admit you couldn't tell that the very obvious joke was a joke.
>Concession accepted kek.
Accept this dick. get fucked.

>>7721350
> Japs still can't write though. Same with chinks.
You got refuted hard lil bro. Just take the L and you might learn to write too.

>>7721352
You can't read AND can't write, given what you're whinging about. I repeat -
>Wrong anon, fucko.

>>7721353
>>Japs still can't write though. Same with chinks.
>Just admit you couldn't tell that the very obvious joke was a joke.

>>7721356
Okay, I'm going to point it out clearly, just so you can understand and hopefully self reflect.

>>7721327 <<<< My first comment in the thread.
Nowhere in our chain of comments since then have I made any statement on the japs or their possibly great or shitty writing. This should have been clear when I told you two times that you had the wrong anon.
Is this cope because you're embarrassed?

>>7721362
I am sorry, if you accept Japanese people can write really great literature in the anime, manga, VN, LN mediums then I have no further issues.

>>7721369
Sure, why can't they? So let's make up and make out.

I hate women and effeminates.
I wish i could beat some masculinity into them.

>>7721383
>hate
True masculinity is punching women and effeminates because you love them.

>>7721342
>source?
Just the general ebb and flow of industries and trends.
Japan and its arts have been popular, fallen out of favour, and have become popular again - and will eventually fall out of favour yet again. Same with anything else.

>>7721397
>and will eventually fall out of favour
source? that's an unjustifiable prediction of the future and taking a western centric view on all of art and history.

>>7721414
>source?
Just the general ebb and flow of industries and trends.
Japan and its arts have been popular, fallen out of favour, and have become popular again - and will eventually fall out of favour yet again. Same with anything else.

>that's an unjustifiable prediction of the future
Right, because history isn't known for repeating...

>taking a western centric view on all of art and history
Yeah, because we're talking about the west, and the trends in their tastes? Why wouldn't I take that view?

>>7721417
>It will, because it just will repeat okay!?
soijack level argumentation.

yeah, because people are NPCs who don't think and just follow the invisible hand of Marxism. there is no real reason behind anything, it's all just cyclical maaaan *hits blunt*

>>7721420
>source?
>source?
>It will, because it just will repeat okay!?
>source?
Well then, hello there my fellow soijack.
>yeah, because people are NPCs who don't think
Well...
>and just follow the invisible hand of Marxism
Right, because history is marxist? You hit that blunt a bit too hard, buddy.
>there is no real reason behind anything, it's all just cyclical maaaan *hits blunt*
Deep and true, now put down the blunt.

If you're going to complain about my argument, at least make one yourself. What are you even saying? "Nu-uh, history doesn't repeat!"... well, okay then? We'll just disagree.
Can you point to a fashion or popular trend that has remained so, and been continuously evergreen?
Are there more of those than ones that have fallen out of fashion?
What makes the current popular japanese media different from the later and part of the former?

>>7721268
You are forgetting that OP asked why anime is more celebrated and popular than western animation. And I also pointed out that one of the reasons western cartoons don't capture as big of an audience is the fact that it is solely cartoonish comedic. Ed, Edd, and Eddy is obviously a great show. But you can't ignore that it's lacking in character development. Those are the moments that make people care about the story, not the 100th giant gumball in the mouth gag. I also don't see anyone posting or gooning to fan art of any of the girls on that show, I don't see anyone wearing Ed, Edd, and Eddy merch, no one cosplays them at conventions. No one talks about Ed, Edd, and Eddy inspiring them to get into writing or animation. Again you do need a balance between things being cartoonish and realistic. A show like Umaru-Chan takes this idea to the the extreme and it works, it's almost the perfect example of what I'm trying to say. The show is fucking ridiculous but isn't constant cartoonish gags and it give the viewers a chance to care about the characters, and see them become better people.

>>7721420
Because isekai shit will only be liked by /a/ faggots and Japanese otaku cattle, because anime shit will become as oversaturated as everything else

>>7721508
>You are forgetting that OP asked why anime is more celebrated and popular than western animation.
Sure, but I was responding specifically about your critique for Ed Edd and Eddy.

>I also pointed out that one of the reasons western cartoons don't capture as big of an audience is the fact that it is solely cartoonish comedic.
I agree with you there, I even said something similar in another post within this thread.
A big reason for Anime and Manga's success is that there was demand for more than just childish comedy, and that demand was never met by the western animation industry. Hell, it's still failing to meet that demand.
However, just because there's a demand for other products, doesn't mean the cartoonish slapstick product that is already there should be watered down and become something else to weakly pacify that demand.

>Ed, Edd, and Eddy is obviously a great show. But you can't ignore that it's lacking in character development.
And here's where I begin to disagree. Not everything needs character development, or such lofty writing tools. It's a mostly episodic show (episodes could even be broken up), stemming from the idea that a child should be able to watch an episode out of order and be able to enjoy it (unlike shows with continuous plots, for example). So it's not that I'm going to ignore it's lack of character development, it's just not needed for this particular show.
Did Looney Tune Characters need character development? Tom and Jerry? Popeye?

>I also don't see anyone posting or gooning to fan art of any of the girls on that show
I brought up Marie because people are still gooning to her, so you're obviously not looking in the right circles. She's hardly going to be posted in a thread or board for anime art, for example. But I still see her posted regularly... Hell, Rebecca Sugar is infamous for her dirty EEnE art, so there's at least one person gooning to someone other than Marie.

>>7721567
Cont.
>I don't see anyone wearing Ed, Edd, and Eddy merch, no one cosplays them at conventions.
The show is nearly 30 years old, and came out during a time, for a generation, that didn't do such things. It's also a different culture (anime vs W.animation), as you're probably not going to see many modern cartoons get cosplayed, compared to modern anime.

>No one talks about Ed, Edd, and Eddy inspiring them to get into writing or animation.
Well, I already mentioned Rebecca Sugar, who obviously found the boys very inspiring - they really got her 'creative juices' pumping...
but I've seen others mention it too. Again, are you reading interviews with western animation professionals? If not, how would you expect to see such statements?

>Again you do need a balance between things being cartoonish and realistic. A show like Umaru-Chan takes this idea to the the extreme and it works, it's almost the perfect example of what I'm trying to say.
Because Umaru-chan was going for something different, in part because of their likely different demographics. EEnE's primary demographic is quite literally children (<12), while the kind of shows you're talking about are more so for teens. I'd say a better comparison point for comedy styling would be Nichijou, though I haven't watched that in yonks, I recall it was as balls to the wall as EEnE ever was (though not so gross out).

>it give the viewers a chance to care about the characters, and see them become better people.
Eh, kids cartoons are full of moral lessons, EEnE wasn't really going for that. It was mostly naughty dumb kids getting their comeuppance over and over.

Anyway, to summarise, EEnE is like a newspaper strip comic, and you're asking for it to take on the qualities of a serialised manga.
But I'm not sure if I'm being clear here, I hate writing essays like this, lol.

>>7721420
>>7721397
Japanese animation outsourced must of it's animation to Korea in the 2010s already and China has started outperforming Japan with stuff like Genshin Impact and other things. Similar artstyle for now but don't be surprised if it changes radically just like how the culture radically changed in the 90s to favor rough and edgy.

>>7721570
>Genshin impact

Gatcha shit

>>7721610
Good taste doesn't dictate what's popular, unfortunately.

oh look, I was right. it's an east vs west thread

>>7721567
>And here's where I begin to disagree. Not everything needs character development...
True but it's doing no favors for why western cartoons are fallen behind Japanese cartoons. Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, are about animals, no one cares about the development of these characters. Popeye is too old of a show to be in this discussion, yes I know it had a couple of modern revivals but it's still suffers from the same issues that more contemporary American or western cartoons face which is being too deformed in design for viewers to care about the characters. They're not cute or relatable, and they lack expression in their faces.
>EEnE's primary demographic is quite literally children
Anime's demographics are the same. I stared watching anime at age six. This also made me remember that Speed Racer and Samurai Pizza Cats are anime that are closer to the style of western cartoons and for that reason we hardly ever see them mentioned compared to shows like Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon, shows which follows and arguably started the style of story telling that easily captures audiences for years. People have been fans of Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon for their entire lives. They still dress up as these characters. I'm not surprised to see a guy in a black t-shirt with Sailor Moon on it I'd be surprised to see a guy in a t-shirt with Pepper Ann on it.

>>7721617
I don't see much or any of that in this thread, what do you mean?

>>7721625
Cont.
>Anyway, to summarise, EEnE is like a newspaper strip comic, and you're asking for it to take on the qualities of a serialised manga. But I'm not sure if I'm being clear here, I hate writing essays like this, lol.
That's what I was saying when I said you're forgetting the OP question. I know that western cartoons server a different purpose and are going for a different style and many of them originate from newspaper comic strips. That doesn't change the fact that they are failing to appeal to a larger audience and they are "losing" to Japanese produced shows and manga. Again shows like Ed, Edd, and Eddy, or Hey Arnold and, The Wild Thornberry's are good shows, but you have to think about them in comparison to anime, especially when someone asks you to compare them. Those shows were airing during the Toonami block. None of the kids I knew stopped doing whatever they were doing to go watch Hey Arnold. Everyone stopped doing what they were doing to go watch the anime we were being shown on Toonami.

>>7721629
>The Wild Thornberrys
Gee I wonder why people like anime more than western cartoons. Truly a mystery as to who young boys would lust after and who young girls would want to emulate.

>>7717182
too words goy. none of that matters in your multicultural goyciety

>>7718198
i dont understand why you are even in an art board when all you have is jewish and nigger propaganda? why are you here? you literally have NOTHING

just put the foreskin in the bag lil bro

>>7721644
Or what you get more satisfaction or accomplishment out of drawing, to take it back to the OP question >>7715372 (OP)
>Can someone help me understand the appeal of the anime style among so many young artists?

>>7721610
If this was discussing about good medium anime wouldn't even be in the discussion. I'm simply discussing trends.

>>7721658
Yes, but they are really shitty examples, but I agree with the analysis, Chinese trade is unpleasant.

>>7721342
i'd say manhwa, but korea's is much more effective at anti-piracy than japan ever was that they seem to be killing off their own international reach.

>>7721758
>manhwa
is indistinguishable from anime and manga so I would say that's a bad suggestion. My very loose prediction is that we will get a revival of western animation and story telling through French artists and animators, spreading out from studio Fortiche. That style of show making will be hot for a few years, with artists in the anglosphere piggy backing, before Japan dominates again because Japan actually cares about their cultural exports.

>>7721769
>>manhwa
>is indistinguishable from anime and manga

>>7721644
Almost all of the women in Sailor Moon were constantly horny. Also one caters to teenagers the other to teenage girls the other to pre-teens. People start getting into drawing when they are teenagers.

>>7715372 (OP)
Girls that looks like they'd like to fuck. It's not rocket science

>>7715391
Thank you chatgpt-chan

>>7716098
Western cartoons love doing the opposite and going from silly and cutesy to hyper realistic or well drawn for their gags. Like any close-up in SpongeBob or Ren and Stimpy.

>>7715395
>All of that makes sense, but isn't true of the Disney style as well? Or the American superhero comics style (Jack Kirby etc)?
it's true for those styles as well and the reason i like them all desu. stylized face/hair with natural body is the way to go

>>7721625
>>7721629
I think we're in broad agreement about what the western animation industry needed to do in big strokes way, but I just disagree that great works (such as EEnE) needed to be different or changed. Chocolate Mint doesn't need to cease to exist or be changed just because other customers wish for vanilla or plain chocolate.

Actually, the animation industry is kind of like the opposite of the comics industry - while animation ignored it's maturing audience and continued to only make immature products for children, thus allowing the anime industry to serve that need and flourish in the west; the comics industry saw it's maturing audience and followed them by turning their children's comics into angsty violent wank, so that children were left un-served and thus no longer becoming fans who would turn into the adult fans - a really stupid and destructive move on their part, honestly.

>>7722765
>children were left un-served and thus no longer becoming fans who would turn into the adult fans
I don't think this is necessarily true, because violence is popular with kids in the west. The problem is its difficult to get into American comics as a kid if you're just starting out.
>Where do I start with batman batman
Well you can start with this series or this series, or this series, then skip this series, then read this series and if you like it go back to another series, also there's a new one coming out thats the 300th reboot of the character
>Where do I start reading Demon Slayer
Volume 1

>>7722852
Continuity is definitely an issue. Though I'm not sure is the full answer given how One Piece is one of the most popular series of all time despite having a ginormous barrier to entry that it suffers functionally the same issue as these comics.

>>7722852
>I don't think this is necessarily true, because violence is popular with kids in the west.
True, but I think they've long since hit levels of maturity that most parents do not condone their child reading and therefore aren't willing to fund. The more extreme violence (Joker wearing the rotting flesh of his own face as a mask?) is one thing, but there's just generally far more mature plots such as dealing with rapists, politics, romantic and sexual relationships, just generally being overly grim and dark in a manner not appropriate for children.
Hell, even if the plot is child friendly, they're just tonally not friendly for kids these days - a far cry from their earlier cheesy (and child friendly) golden and silver age counterparts.

Granted if we're talking about teens, they'd probably be all for that shit and the parents likely wouldn't mind, but you want kids to be into the medium sooner rather than later.
You're also absolutely right about the entry points though, but there's also the issue of nothing mattering in the plots; if the main character dies, you can guarantee he'll be coming back, or it'll be written of as alternate dimension version of themselves, or some piss weak resolution like that.

>>7722897
>"Man, I've gotta read all this?"
Also true, but that barrier to entry is smaller than "where the hell do I even start!?".
Not to mention that the superhero comics also arguably have the former problem too.

>>7715372 (OP)
The exaggerated facial proportions and facial expressions are easier to read for autistic individuals than regular realistic emotion

>>7722917
>but there's just generally far more mature plots such as dealing with rapists, politics, romantic and sexual relationships
Whats funny is these generally aren't popular with adults either because they're so poorly executed. Nobody likes being lectured.

>>7722970
I think the "not being lectured" part is a cope especially if you're talking about popularity with anime because anime is notorious for doing that. It's just constant cynicism is pointless and people have grown tired of it. Superman went from being hated to the new counterculture.

>>7716981
Ottley wasn't anime influenced.
Corey Walker was though surprisingly enough, one of Terra's haircuts in the end of the comic is a confirmed shout to Akko from Little Witch Academia.

>>7722960
You will find gay shit like "regular realistic emotion" more often in weeb media since the expressions they do are not even remotely as expressive and vigorous as those in cartoons.

>>7722765
>I think we're in broad agreement about what the western animation industry needed to do in big strokes way, but I just disagree that great works (such as EEnE) needed to be different or changed.
Never said those shows needed to be changed, again they are good shows. We are just explaining why western cartoons aren't as appealing to draw for young artists and why they aren't as influential and doing as well as anime currently.

>>7718264
The Enlightenment is rationalist larping and "Western" philosophy culminated in deconstruction, tranny rights and worshipping ugly.

>>7723021
If you're including the Greek philosophers as Western that's a pretty retarded take. Also the biggest anti-Enlightenment philosophers that have any basis in tradition are also Western. The philosophy that carries over to Japanese seinens are vast majority the hyper rational and pro nihilism that you are complaining about.

>>7722960
As opposed to the wacky over exaggerated expressions in western cartoons? The only way I can see someone coming to this conclusion is if shit like family guy or 3d disney movies was the only western animation they watched

Go and search:
hamukukka
seok98
iwzry

You'll find out why

>>7722960
dont forget the loud autistic screaming explaining the joke and/or exactly whats going on