Thread 7725285

What's the difference between the benefits of referencing something for an illustration and copying something? Many people on /ic/ are told to use references and to copy all the time but for most begs, it doesn't stick or they get the hang of a concept but forget about it shortly after and go back to how they were. How do you get the most out of your copies and when does referencing go from a helpful tool to a hinderance holding back your progress?

>>7725285 (OP)
Copying and reference are similar and share things in common but the goal, process, mental state and outcome are different.
When copying, you want to understand how/why something looks that way. There are many different ways of copying (pic related). You might have the goal of copying it as accurately as possible (reproduction), to train your observational and accuracy skills. Or you can analyze it and break it down using construction drawing. Or be more 2D shaped focused like anime style. If you're copying an illustration, you can ask, Why did the artist use this kind of line here, what kind of form is this, why is there a hard shadow here etc. Hopefully this expands your visual library, improves your skills and knowledge.
When using a reference for an illustration, the goal is to accurately portray something in your original artwork. You select a specific pose, anatomical feature, texture, color palette etc. to use as reference and integrate it into your piece. You could use a photo of lizard to help inform your drawing of a dragon. The result is hopefully more believable, accurate, or visually appealing etc.
Most of /ic/ gets stuck studying too much and not making enough finished pieces. Polishing a turd is bad but never even trying will mean you get stuck in just studying and never apply what you learn. Applying what you learn to pieces you care about is when you really progress.

>>7725294
Excellent explanation. I've seen a lot of people confused on this matter, especially when thinking referencing is the same as copying. Generally speaking, you should be making your reference work for you, and not the other way around. This means that you should already have a good understanding of fundamentals to get the most out of the images you use for reference. And so you can apply the information from your reference to whatever scenario you're trying to depict in your work. Good refs will only go so far to help you however, and won't make up for any deficit in skill.

>>7725285 (OP)
>Referencing
>Breakdown another artwork in to a gesture drawing, adjust to fit your character/context then build back up

>Copying
>Take another artwork, apply spraypaint, call it "your" own

Generally you use referencing as a way to study and understand from real life reference, the elements that make the texture, the AO, the albedo, the cracks, the lines, the proportions.

It's a fundamental skill to properly improve your mental vocabulary.

Copying is just translating 1 to 1 without doing much planing or mental exercise.

Referencing is a natural part of being an artist.
Copying is just how you naturally memorize and grind from masters works.

It's the diference between analyzing and studying a workout routine and then actually doing the reps of some exercise to make you stronger.

Also copying is a necesary skill for things like portraits.

>>7725294
>>7725592
OP here, so for copying to study. How can we protect ourselves from forgetting what we copy? Things like complicated 2d shapes come to mind as they tend to get simplified so much to the point that they become nearly recognizable once forgetting sets in. How often should we copy and draw the same things over and over again or is it a use or lose it kind of thing?

>>7725630
look up techniques from vocabulary memorization from language learnerds.

spaced repetition is usually what you should use to memorize stuff.

>>7725636
So spaced repetition applied to art would be redrawing the same thing from memory over and over again but with some time in between?

>>7725668
Yeah just make a folder or scene in pureref with things you copy in sequence and change out the refs as you feel you understand them and can draw them comfortably. Don't go full ankitarded like the neuroscience youtuber though.

>>7725668
It would be similar to doing reps in a fit exercise.

The goal is to be able to repeat them every day until you can do it perfectly from memory a week later.

So you do enough eyes from photo reference, until you can do one from memory.

The key isn't to do a lot, but do enough times in a long period of time.
It's less about making 8 hours of eyes in one day then is enough, and more like 20 minutes of eyes for 20 days.

>>7725688
>>7725695
Naruhodo. I will structure my plan accordingly then. Thank you!

>>7725699
tldr, just draw

>>7725705
Kind of but there's a big issue if the way you're practicing isnt effective. Its like exercising with bad form, you could be getting so much more out of it or in this case, your bad form is making it so you're barely getting any gains. Improving the way you learn and trying sifferent things i think is a good idea.

>>7725630
you just need to think before and while you draw, for example recently i went on a hike and when i was resting i started looking at grass and started noticing patterns and tricks to make it more real, long story short when i came back home i drew some b&w value study and tested the theories, it came out a bit lacking but now i know what to look for and that my paintings lack contrast. i highly advise doing this.
its basically just theory->draw+think->analyze mistakes

>>7726356
I see, I'm afraid I might not be on the level for being able to analyze my mistakes besides direct comparisons to stuff like copies but I will continue to try. (It was only recently I realized what I was practicing was building up my visual library. Of which I can comfortably draw hands for some reason but stuff like torsos and pelvises or anything else really it all doesn't come out very good.) On the topic of painting, I can't seem to remember the ways I used to recreate certain textures and paint bodies but I assume I just have to do interleaving practice of that too huh. It might be because I'm not thinking of the theory much or I dont have the terms to describe what I'm doing. I find it easier to remember something if I can name it. I'm definitely missing a lot but I'm not sure where you would learn that kind of stuff.

>>7726607
>I'm afraid I might not be on the level for being able to analyze my mistakes
Scratch that. I can definitely do this. What I need a lot now I think are concepts and theory to go along with my studies though.

>>7725630
I'm gonna be real, when I study I often will just take written notes. For me it's a combination of note taking, direct copying, even tracing, then trying to apply what I've learned into my own drawing. I'm not sure if note taking is for every artist but as far as I see it, when you're using reference to study and learn, you should use whatever you deem necessary to help yourself understand.

>>7726860
Ive taken many notes but I've never had them with me whenever I make finished pieces since I always try to internalize whatever it is im studying but it seems like I can't. Its like art is an open not test and I never brought my notebook. I will try this though.

>>7726891
Er uh how do you use those notes exactly?

>>7726891
Er uh actually how do you use those notes exactly?

>>7726960
>>7726891
I typically use these notes for jotting down any key insights that strike me while observing. I like to write them down as concrete ideas since they help me to understand and absorb them better. I'll pretty much be writing anything that I feel is important to remember or that just catches my eye. What this may be is dependent on what I'm trying to learn exactly. I also typically don't use them when making finished pieces, as I'm trying to work on retaining and recalling information, but this is just my preference. If you feel it would help then you should do it. I do like to go back to them after some time to brush up on my knowledge and remember key insights I might have forgotten over time.

>>7726993
>like to write them down as concrete ideas
Would you have any examples you'd be willing to share? Looking back, my notes were usually either noting down mistakes I made that I could do better in the next round or the steps I took for a process. I haven't made very many notes in regards to observations or anything that struck out to me, likely out of a lack of understanding, missing insight and mindlessness, so I would like to be able to get a better idea of it. (Especially if it has to do with heads but any example would work). I think I will try to not use notes when I make finished pieces unless I get stumped but first I have to come up with what to draw but that's a separate issue.

it doesn't matter in your case as there's no career prospects with the art you're doing

>>7727532
Worthless poster begone

>>7727532
>he's not learning Japanese and honing his skills to become viable in their industry
Do you even love art kek?
>>7727558
This. The west shall fear Japan.

>>7727558

that's my line, avatarfaggot.

>>7727567
There's no career prospects drawing lolicon art. That's an industry to nowhere. Learning Japanese is not necessary to cater to a fleeting gacha game market.

you yourself didn't play steins;gate, you're just an ironic.

>>7727570
>Learning Japanese is not necessary
That just shows you lack love for the media and art. You cope because you lack the skills or discipline or even a good sense of taste/quality. Simple as. You will never draw anime if you don't drop the copes. You need to be a true scientist to purse it.
>you yourself didn't play steins;gate,
It was actually one of my first VNs.
>you're just an ironic
Projection much?

>>7727595

You don't draw and this is a shitpost thread you're partaking in by 2 discord college kids taking a piss on the board. If after I say this and you still go on your "le you're not otaku enough" character shtick then you're part of the problem.

later.

>>7727608
>you don't le draw!
The cope is too real.

>you're not otaku enough
We both know you are not and it pains you. You are poisoned by irony to the core. Your level is low. But instead of accepting it and being normal or trying to increase it, you try to drag other people down.
Third rate villain behavior at best kek. I am the protagonist or antagonist that teams up with the protag, you are the guy we strike down.

>>7727608
>its a shitpost thread because you're discussing art and the process of making it and not posting in my AI normalization threads!!!

>>7727616
>I am the protagonist or antagonist that teams up with the protag, you are the guy we strike down.

I'm fully aware, however, that's not written in the script. I have no interest in being the protagonist of a filler arc while the manga is catching up.

>>7727620
Alas, I am the protagonist of a VN, not a shounen manga. The route I entered does not bode well for you or for anyone who will try to hurt the thing I love.

>>7727570
The people who fanboy over trash like Steins;Gate are already ironic.

>>7728039

In the top 10 on both mal and anilist, your opinion is worthless.

>>7728039
t. can't write like or draw like steins;gate
westoids lose again.

>>7725630
You will always forget things. It's fine. Just go back to your old drawings and reference them back when you need it

>>7728113
Very smart