Thread 7747932

Do you agree?

>>7747932 (OP)
Anyone who doesn't is a moron. Imagine deliberately hobbling your own progress by refusing to use the tools at your disposal

>>7747932 (OP)
>spends 4 hours adjusting model to get specific pose

>>7747940
does it really take that long though

>>7747932 (OP)
No, actually, not at all. It's the newbies who need to be drawing the hard way. 'Cheats' are all well and good if you have a deadline, but when you're learning it just leaves you with skill gaps, and an instilled laziness. You get taught to first do long division by hand because it leads you into implicit understandings of how math works that can then be adapted and applied to higher level subjects at a critical level. Skipping all that and using a calculator might get you the same right answer still, but you're not any wiser for it.

>>7747932 (OP)
Drawing mannequins exist, so I agree. Posing could be faster tho

>>7747932 (OP)
I disagree. "Cheating device" and "tool" are not mutually exclusive categories. As a matter of fact, all cheating devices are tools, and everything she said about 3D models - that they allow you to work faster and help with difficult tasks - applies to cheating devices. The poster has failed to supply any arguments supporting her claim that using 3D models isn't cheating.

>>7747932 (OP)
when newbie artists say something is cheating, how do they think people who aren't cheating get good and why aren't they learning to do it the hard way themselves?

There's a reason that chefs are asked to cook an egg. Tools are meant to supplement, not to be used as a crutch. Of course, we both know that you're baiting considering you samefagged the 1st comment.

>>7747964
and how do you know that he samefagged?

tracing over a 3d model is cheating. using it to gauge a pose isnt. but as others said if you do it for a living us everything, even generated images (if they wouldnt suck so much)

>>7747932 (OP)
It's not cheating. Just use it and try to make better outcomes

>>7747940
>>7747953
More like 10-15 minutes, at least using designdoll. CSP 3d models are quite bad tho. First draft would take about the same amount of time anyway. Once the base body is on the canvas just switch off the models, flip it a few times and spot the stiff and elongated limbs where 3d models usually suffer from. Adjust using your own knowledge.

>>7747961
Permabegs are always the ones who complained most about cheating. They've been drawing for a few years but they're still at the newbie stage. They can't fathom that other people are 'cheating' instead of grinding the hard way like they do

>>7747932 (OP)
As an ideas for reference? Not at all. Tracing over them? Eeeeeeeh to each their own.

>>7747932 (OP)
I generally agree, but so often it leads to shittier stiff art, even if the overall figure is more anatomically correct because of the 3D model. Just look at webtoon artwork, so much of that uses 3D models for stuff, and so much of it is stiff unappealing shit - there's a reason why practically no one talks about the artworks for them, which is a shame because there are some gorgeous ones out there.

>>7747932 (OP)
Kind of depends on the situation imo. For basic shit using 3d models feels a bit of a waste of time, as if you learn how to do stuff like perspective, anatomy and poses you just save time in the long run by being able to intuit that shit as you draw rather than using some clunky 3d model to reference. For really complex shapes etc or difficult perspectives, angles or whatever 3d tools become more useful imo.

>>7747932 (OP)
yeah. you give a nodraw a blank 3d model and tell them to draw something with it, but they don't know how to draw and color, you'd still get a terrible, but proportionally correct shit picture.
i just kind of disagree with the newbie artist thing, i think this kind of tool could become a crutch where they never develop the ability to draw without it.

>>7748082
>where they never develop the ability to draw without it.
But is that an issue? If they're happy drawing with it, what's the problem exactly?

>>7748093
depends on where they want to go artistically. drawing from imagination is a pretty important milestone to me.

>>7748093
Whether or not they're happy with it or not is irrelevant to it being bad practice. If anyone only ever did things that were comfortable for them, you'd never get any improvement at all. That's how you get The Slop, it's the end result of ignorant comfortseeking.

>>7747932 (OP)
I've seen this debate for years now and I don't understand why people are arguing over this.
If you want to master drawing and painting, then don't use these tools.
If you don't want to master drawing and painting, then go ahead.
If you have already mastered it and are working on a project under time pressure, then go ahead.
As long as you don't trace other peoples work and sell it as your own, who the fuck cares? (tracing can be invaluable for practice though)
You are only up against yourself and against your own standards you set up for yourself.

>>7747932 (OP)
Depends on the kind of reputation you want to build for yourself. You want to be known as someone that needs to trace models? Fine by me, I'm not doing the hiring.

>>7747932 (OP)
It's the same shit for 3D models, stabilization, shape tools, lasso tool, transform, layer blending modes, etc.
If you always use it and use it as a beg, you'll always rely on that crutch and will never be good.
If you learn to do it the hard way and THEN decide to use these tools to help with the most difficult poses/tight deadlines, then it's a helpful tool.

>>7747932 (OP)
I personally don't like CSP's 3D model. Too jank for me
As long as you don't trace, it's not cheating.
I consider "cheating" as "drawing without learning just to achieve an end result", meaning that by tracing, you don't really learn.

>>7747932 (OP)

dont care. I don't need it. If you need it then use it. I don't care what you do as long as it's not AI slop trash.

>>7748126
I'm not sure why people keep telling people to trace.
I'm being serious.
Remember when you learn how to write the alphabets. Did you actually just trace the model "a", "b", etc. with a transparent paper? No, you use your eyes, and copy the letters next to the ideal examples.

Newfag here but i wonder, are people in the art community really pedantic to the point they jump on you when you're called out for using reference? For learning it's bad if you just rely on copying models, i know. But it's not like using maquettes is unheard of for artists.

>>7747932 (OP)
>please newbie artists use a 3D crutch!
Gotta give it to xym, that's a very clever way to weed out future rivals

>>7748237
OP isn't referring to people using 3D models for references, no one has ever given a shit about that. They're referring to people who trace them.

>>7747932 (OP)
It's fine, just don't trace them - I've seen enough stiff, basic designdoll proportions anime girls already.

>>7747932 (OP)
I hate when people push crutches on newbies cause they get validated on social media that way. Yeah keep tracing 3D, you're gonna git gud for sure!
You can use all the shit you want if you know what you're doing especially when you have deadlines but tracing isn't going to teach you shit.e

>>7748239
lol

Do I listen to my FUCKING HERO who told me in DMs they use models and are now uber popular on X with over 200k followers or do I listen to a bunch of trifling, snobby ah jits on /ic/ telling me not to do it and to suffer in purgatory drawing boxes all day.

>>7748324
Cool, show us the huge boost in quality your art has seen since tracing models

>>7748344
>pyw

>>7748344
you know where to look

>>7748422
and the before picture?

>>7748422
While I broadly agree that art instruction grifters and patreon e-beggers sucked the fun and creativity out of the internet art and mindbroke everyone into minmaxxing for engagement this is just a Dobson-tier straw man telling you to choose between two extremes and not explore options and develop your own habits.

>>7748422
The reason why most people would rather draw 10000 boxes than learn by drawing what they enjoy is that they don't love drawing at all and they don't enjoy anything. They just want to sell porn, which is not something you can love. Like drinking booze or smoking pot it's not something you do because you love it. The prospect is truly the equivalent of getting paid to smoke pot and sell pot which is the ultimate dream of the drifting XXI century amoeba whites and third worlders.

>>7747955
This comment was made by a white man.

i dont even let myself use liquify, why would i trace over a 3d model and purposefully make my own knowledge of form worse?

>>7747932 (OP)
Same argument about tracing AI. it's valid and shouldn't discouraged.

>>7748422
/ic/-tan needs to put a shirt on damn

Is this the same tard who complained about AI stealing their art in another thread

>>7747932 (OP)
Calling it "cheating" implies that drawing is a contest with rules. Of course, there are legalities involved in drawing commercial work; using poseable 3D models is not copyright violation, for example. There are also matters of etiquette and ethics; using poseable 3D models is not swiping or referencing another person's work too closely. Is it good practice? That's another question altogether, and depends on what kind of an artist you want to be. I don't use poseable 3D models.

>>7748463
tracing ai scares me because i wouldn't know if its teaching me bad habits.

>>7747932 (OP)
>artist
>tracer

pick one weeb faggot.

>>7748467
u mirin?

>>7748422
I really do miss these tan characters.

>>7748537
I miss old /ic/

>>7747932 (OP)
If you can create a concept art with pencil and paper, then I don't care what tools you use even AI is allowed.

>>7748595
I have been going through the tan wiki for like a couple of weeks now and I really do want to draw /ic/-tan again
might add a couple more characters too

>>7748422
Me on the top left. Please don't look stare at my tummy too much ///

>>7748011
in some ways they're right about "cheating" but i don't think i've ever seen any of these permabegs have any skill in fundies or even desire to learn them
i mean, if you never want to "cheat" just learn perspective but they never do

>>7748703
pyw

>>7748460
Is this supposed to be an insult?

>>7747967
It's a bait thread with a bait response meant to bait (You)s.

>>7748764
On TikTok it is

>>7748774
Why would I care what the chings think?

>>7747932 (OP)
You can smell model cheaters a mile away. It's good to learn how 3D works so you can spot them and ignore their work or take it with a grain of salt

Models are fine for inorganic things with insane perspective, or drafting stage with figures, but organic 3D models should not be visible in your final image.

>>7748784
Let me ask you something, do you have 50 - 100k followers? No? Then why the FUCK should I listen to you over someone that religiously uses models in their works? 1 reason.

>>7748800
You're ngmi for thinking follow count matters at all

>>7748800
cause the truth doesn't change even if you have 100k followers chang

>>7748804
>>7748821

Compelling answers, oniichan, but it's not convincing.

>>7748800
Follower count alone doesn't mean anything. You can literally go and purchase 100,000 followers right now for any social media site you want.

>>7748830
Okay let's do this...do your posts reach half a million in engagement?

>>7747932 (OP)
buy an ad

>>7748830
Agreed. I've seen people with barely 15k followers making 100k+ from their art while people with 100k followers barely make 1k a month

>>7748840
Half a million engagement doesn't put any money in your bank account

>>7748840
Artists with 100k+ aren't even reaching half a million most of the time, that's nonsense. 100-200k engagements is pretty normal for popular accounts that aren't click farming. Realistically posts will hover around 10-20k if they don't go viral.

>>7748881

That’s not my problem if you got a reach but aren’t making money, that’s a separate skill set. In any case we are diverting from the core point at hand and that is artists who use these tools are successful and found what works for them. More importantly, it’s a consistent way to push out high quality art in the age of AI.

Like I pay for CSP each month and to have someone say “don’t use 3D model, the thing you’re paying for each month because because that’s cheating” is absolute nonsense.

>>7748460
>>7748774

>>7748522
Trace ai quickly
Turn it off
Flip, zoom out and spot the parts that are wrong or stiff (you will find them. Usually it's long torso, long upper arms, eyes that are a bit too small).
Gesture draw over them and then redraw again with the previous sketch already layered.

Also it is pretty easy to spot AI tracers. You can see if their work are begs from 2022 and suddenly they're putting out professional body shapes in 2024/2025

>>7749201
are you a professional ai user?

>>7749201
>doesn't think you can learn anatomy in 2-3 years
Grim.

The fallacy of cheating in art is to believe that EVERYONE or ANYONE can replicate the art or success of the accused if they did the same thing as them, BUT surprise, surprise, it's not as easy as tracing, using references or 3D models and becoming the next Kishimoto, Oda, or Fujimoto.

STOP thinking that you are like them because you have paper, pencil, ink, or a digital tablet. You are NOT like them because THEY do draw, they draw until they bleed, they draw 16 hours a day, they devote their lives to drawing. Kentaro Miura literally worked so hard that his heart veins exploded.

JUST DRAW.

>>7749229
Correct. Just draw in any way shape and form. We will all make it

>>7747932 (OP)
CSP is like a wheelchair for people who don't have a very vivid imagination and need references for poses. Nothing wrong with that.

I just don't see how using a separate app and spending time setting up poses there is faster than just drawing that from imagination. Once you draw enough, you'll know what every pose looks like and you won't need a reference.

>>7747932 (OP)
As an AI artist, this is true. Tracing AI art is just a tool. Same with tracing photos.

>>7747932 (OP)
The artist for Gantz used 3D models
On one hand it allowed him to finish serialization really quickly
On the other hand his anatomy is fucked to this day because he relied on those 3D models

Tracing makes you more "productive" but the product that comes out of it is only partially yours, as all the graphic elements off the piece weren't made by your hand or your brain, henceforth not requiring work. Such techniques are only useful for mass-production, and mass production is in its nature an industrial process that denatures art. That is easy to see by looking at the steep degradation of the quality of anime since the 2000s when they gained in popularity. If you use little tricks like this you are a useless faggot

>>7748899
BTFO. Most sensible logic ITT.

Does CSP have a "thick venus milf" model?

>>7747932 (OP)
Art is a product, it's just a hobby/job, nothing special, nothing sacred. Do whatever you want.

>>7751872
You know, random Internet strangers' validation are worth significantly less than the time saved and the output that eventually materialise. Unless you're not really doing anything important with your time, like teenagers, so I guess internet validation is probably worth it.

>>7748324
>>7748800
I don't know if you're referring to Kyle who used to lurk here a long time ago but he probably has more than 200k now. The fact that this guy still cannot draw an ankle to save his life (in spite of being a giant footfag) and that all his face still look plastered on should tell you how much crutching on 3d will make you stagnate.
Does it look good? Yeah it does. Does it look the exact same shit he was drawing 6 years ago? Also yes.

By all means, go trace 3d if you're fine with your current skill level because god knows you'll never improve past that.

>>7751981
>Does it look good? Yeah it does.
No it doesnt kek

>>7751981
I like Kyle too but the guy I'm talking about is Sydusarts. He doesn't post here.

>>7748595
The only way to bring it back is to post more than the dipshits and actually be helpful and interesting. stop letting the nodraw tourists shit up threads and maybe it'd be worth something.

Been using 3D in my illustration work for almost 7 years. It was always a viable option, you just have people who are insane and stubborn as shit about the idea.
Just Go ahead and do it. get shit done already, There's no reason to continue to hold yourself back.

>>7747932 (OP)
it's bad for the same reasons tracing is bad. the best way to use 3d models would be to make the pose you want then set it to the side of the canvas and copy it by eye.

>>7752139
saving this as a good example of how relying on 3d stunts skill progress

>>7752147
He's got finished work that looks like it could be used as a youtube banner. Where's your progress?

>>7752147
It was for a skateboard, the person deliberately wanted it to be rough and sketchy stylistically.

>>7748422
I want to impregnate that thing.

>>7752170
>>7752155
sorry that was rude. still i think the 3d step was totally pointless

Puritans starve

>>7752196
It saved me an immense amount of time by just moving around some super simple skeletons and that old werewolf model. it took a job that would have been 5 days of work normally down to a day and a half, which speaks for itself.

>>7752309
i get that you need the crutch but an averagely competent artist wouldn't need that. the step you made 3d is what should be done in the rough draft/thumbnailing stage

>>7752343
So anon, why can't you just thumbnail and then pose the models?

>>7752347
i don't need to pose models because i can visualize it in my mind. but if i always posed models i'd have never learned that ability

>>7752349
Okay but what about props or weapons that have a million trinkets on it? Are you gonna draw that by hand, too? 360 degrees? Or BGs? Sketchup has been around since the early 2000s as old as Google Earth, why not take advantage?

>>7748236
Unironically I did trace letters as a kid and my calligraphy improved, they even tell you to do that in art/design colleges for linework/penmanship practices even for illustration students looking to do figurative work

>>7752343
No see the thing that you don't get is how quickly you can draft a thing for the client to okay or offer suggestions before you go putting things down you'll have to erase. Also, I then have the layout just there, ready to go.
Like you can sit there and be in the funny illustration purist land and jump off the flexibility cliff, or you can get up on the mountain and get work done. Choice is yours, really.

>>7752389
sorry but that's a cope. you can rough things out even faster than placing 3d models

>>7752393
It's quite quick to mock up a 3D environment. Much faster than drawing it.

>>7752393
I mean if you just don't have multiple skillsets I can see how it would be slower for you, but as for me I'm already well acquainted with 3D as one of my trade skills. Much like taking a photo to use as a perspective reference, it's all in the name of speeding up and getting it out of your head, onto the canvas, and into the client's lap or onto your blog/wall.

I think this is probably a great video for all the people here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYbYvImd7Bw

>>7752408
>>7752396
maybe for you left brained people who treat art like a production line it works but from my standpoint it seems like a fast track way to suck out any and all soul from your art

>>7752414
talking like someone who's never made a 3D model before then lmao

The only acceptable way to use 3d is after sketching and bringing it in to help with perspective and compositional issues but not fucking tracing it lol

>>7747932 (OP)
This is the same kind of person who tells people to draw on a iPad

>>7752423
Nta anon but I've been sculpting, retopologizing, painting diffuse, specular, baking normals even rigging my models for years but I totally agree with him. Painting and drawing should be treated as different mediums because they are. Using 3D as a crutch to trace from is a shortcut in which you fool yourself into thinking that you can skip important work like construction,gestural understanding, perspective, values, color and anatomy. Resulting in a superficial/ rudimentary fundamental basic understanding that will always be apparent in the finished work.
The moment they need to change a pose or alter the perspective or what have you they either gotta go back into the 3D software and manually tweak it or they'll have to rely on their underdeveloped fundamental knowledge and suddenly you have muscles covering joints, incorrect shadows and wonky perspective all over the place.
People make convenient excuses like this to mainly convince themselves that they don't need to do the work. But they haven't yet done the work so they won't even be able to comprehend what I'm talking about here.

Inb4 the lazy "pyw" reply. I don't need to. Everyone worth their salt knows this is true. How about YOU post your work and prove me right. I'd be willing to bet money on you being one of these people I'm refering to.

I use AI prompts for poses then trace over it with my character in mind.

>>7752968
I have no idea why you're trying super hard for an own with this statement like I hadn't already been doing stuff without 3D for years prior or something, but it's very annoying. Only an incurious fool wouldn't be able to break past the model and make adjustments on their own accord.

Anyway yeah maybe you should post your work. It'd be really fun to see what sort of things you make.

>>7752471
drawing on an* iPad rules

>>7747932 (OP)
You don't develop the skills you don't practice.
Putting yourself "in the trenches" can be the right or wrong choice depending on your goals. Just don't pretend you aren't making a tradeoff.

>>7752968
This guy wrote all this and got mogged lmao

>>7752968
>buzzwords buzzwords
Here's another buzzword for your collection midwit

>>7747933
retard doesn't know the difference between a tool and a crutch.
P.S. you don't get better by tracing everything

>>7752414
>my way is the only way if it's not my way you suck

I've tried to use 3d models and it's too much effort for poses that end up feeling unnatural / stiff
I find it easier to make my own refs by taking photos

>>7756651
>it's too much effort for poses that end up feeling unnatural / stiff
you are not meant to completely trace the 3d model retardbro..

>>7756734
I don't do either with models or photos
the point is that there's a logic to how the body naturally balances itself that is lacking with 3d models
like how a hand grips an object gracefully, or how much twist in the torso with a sitting pose is still comfortable, etc

okay but in all seriousness it’s much easier to just draw the pose