Thread 213523907

My country wastes an INSANE amount of money on just artificially extending the lives of elderly ~5-10 years to the benefit of no one.

Grandma is suffering, cannot take care of herself or remember who she is. She only gets visits maybe once or twice a week by children and grandchildren who she doesn't recognize and who don't recognize much of the old her in return.

Civil society would deem it ethical to extend this suffering for 5 to 10 years by shoveling over heaps of cash just to fill her with medicine and pain killers and to have people take care of her rather than just letting her die in a peaceful way.

All this in a country that has an over-strained medical system, housing market, socials security system. Sheer insanity!

>you CANT spend the goytokens on grandma
Who cares?

There was an episode in Star Trek TNG in the 90s where they visited a planet where people suicide when they reach 60, beacuse its seen as the decent thing to do to your loved ones (Half a Life, s4e22)
People make fun of me for being a Trekkie despite having already mentally dealt with all the problems we see today

>>213523907 (OP)
I thought eauthanasia is legal there.

>>213523938
and doctor mccoy lived to 137, star trek is about what's possible, not what's easy

>>213523907 (OP)
Its also an issue here. Its so retarded. Bit point it out and youre heartless.
>They NEED to rot in a bed for 5 years because um... life is sacred or something (and also think about the health insurance companies)

>>213524161
Thats true, it would be seen as kinda cruel if people suicided today who would have potentially lived forever if they stuck around an lived long enough to see actual life extending medical technology. But i doubt those people woul ever get younger, at most they'd stay at their old brittle age

>>213524140
Sure, but this is about social norms, see: >>213524202

It's legal but people see it as unethical to euthanize their grandmother despite their completely vegetated state.

Also, it's not that easy to get access to euthanesia, there are all kinds of conditions and things you need to prove before you are allowed to euthanize yourself, amongst which is that you're sane of mind, which cannot be said about people with dementia. But even beyond that there are all kinds of examples of people who desperately want euthanasia but cannot get it because bureaucracy says no (not sure why they don't just take matters into their own hands then, but that's a different story)

>>213523907 (OP)
Boomers paid for it in taxes for their whole life when they worked hard instead of flexing on Instagram like zoomers do. So they deserve that expensive care.

>>213524586
What’s the point if they can’t enjoy it, or even experience it in any meaningful way?

>>213524604
It's their choice, chud. If they want to live like that, they have a right to do it because they paid for it in taxes. You are not allowed to take it away from them only because you want to move into your grandma's house.

Is it just me that sometimes wishes COVID was successful at what it did? (killing boomers and no one else)
It's like it was designed to fix our demographic crisis

and we instead closef the entire society to protect them. Or rather the boomers in power did it to protect themselves

>>213524693
>It's like it was designed to fix our demographic crisis
What the fuck are you talking about, our crisis is about having too few babies, not too many elders. In our culture grandmas often work as au-pairs for their grandchildren so they're actually necessary for higher birth rates. Polish women usually decide to have children only if they know they will have enough support from their mothers to help them with the kids.

>>213524693
Yeah I've said this before. We should have seized the opportunity and let covid run its course. Would relieve basically all social pressures on europe (overpopulation, aging, social security, immigration, housing). It's totally brainless

>>213524718
What do you have too few babies for?

>>213524800
>What do you have too few babies for?
To sustain current population number (composed of ethnic Poles, not Indians and Africans ofc)

>>213524817
What do you need those population numbers for?

And wouldn't the solution be to recall everyone you're sending to western europe? My country is teeming with Poles and Bulgarians that we don't need or want. If you take them back and prevent the new ones from leaving you have nothing to worry about

>>213524631

They didn't pay for it in taxes, they created a pension system in which they promised that future generations would pay for their care and then they didn't make enough children to maintain the economy.

Now we are going billions into debt and filling the country with migrants to try to pay for keeping boomers alive for longer than reasonable.

>>213524867
>My country is teeming with Poles and Bulgarians that we don't need or want
You're free to return them here if you ask me. Except you don't.

>you have nothing to worry about
We do, because Poles abroad also have low birth rates nowadays. Lately I've checked stats for the UK and Polish women have the lowest TFR in Britain after east Asian women.

>>213523925
Look at his flag. He’s probably an Ahmed that’s mad that gibs go to Bram’s grandmother and not himself.

>>213524908
>They didn't pay for it in taxes, they created a pension system
Yes, they created what your country is now, the whole concept of welfare state and Finland's prosperity. They founded big Finnish companies that you millennials/zoomers either ruined or at least cannot run to keep their former relevance, innovativeness and ability to generate income to sustain the country's economy. You fucked up everything the boomers left for you and you dare complain about that little money that goes to provide to them for their old age because after you wasted all that money the boomers left for you in companies' market value and state budget, you're now trying to steal the last piece of bread from your dying grandmother? Pathetic.

>>213524953
Retarded nigger, I am Bram. And Ahmed wouldn't be here if we weren't so hell bent on artificially keeping boomers alive

>>213524718
we do need babies yes but we would still be an elderly society even with a birth boom

>>213523907 (OP)
>>213524202
>germanics unable to kill someone for 5 minutes be like

>>213524977
It's the silent generation that built the wellfare state after WWIII when boomers were still babies. The boomers just benefited from it and subsequently tore it down.

>>213524867
>And wouldn't the solution be to recall everyone you're sending to western europe?
Go ahead and please do that if you know how. Not that it will help in the long term since they're all childless too.

>>213525034
Nah, a lot of firms were built already by boomers or at least boomers inherited small family businesses after their parents and turned them into global companies. As long as boomers were the engineers, managers and so on (1980s/90s, so when boomers were in their 30s-50s), your economy was holding strong. Problems only started after 2008 which "coincidentally" correlated with boomers retiring and millennials becoming engineers and managers, magically fucking up everything in such a short time span

>>213525137
Our economy was in the dumps in the 80s as well as the early 70s retard.

>>213525265
Nah, your economy was still among the greatest in the world in the 1980s. Just because it could sometimes perform slightly worse than let's say west German economy mattered nothing in the greater picture (at best it meant that west German boomers were a bit more efficient than Dutch boomers). But still the Netherlands of the 1980s was much better than the Netherlands of 2025.

>>213523907 (OP)
Gf's grandma started losing her mind some 5+ years ago then spent her last year in a retirement home (2k rent a month) because she kept falling and running away. In the end she didn't remember anything, not her husband who she was married to for 60 years, her daughter or her niece. At least 50k were spent out of her family pocket (plus the meds paid by the state) to keep her in a living hell for half a decade despite her asking to kill her when she realised her mind was disintegrating
I do believe this is the mark of fully materialistic society, since all the values are in the material world any kind of life is preferable to the nothing thus no price is high enough for a single extra breath

>>213523907 (OP)
>My country wastes an INSANE amount of money on just artificially extending the lives of elderly ~5-10 years
BASED.

>>213525370
>At least 50k were spent out of her family pocket
>boo hoo how dares she spend her own money on her own needs rather than simply die and leave this money for her grandson (me)

Her family benefited from her hard work for the last 50 years, they probably even live in her home (typically Italian thing) yet when she's about to die they are mean enough to be angry with spending a little money to provide her a comfortable end of life? Zoomers are terrible people, no wonder the west is dying. In China or India it would be unthinkable not to respect their elders and not to provide them everything they need in their agony, that's why these societies are thriving and will surpass the decaying immoral west soon

>>213523907 (OP)
>>213524202
>flags
Makes sense

>>213525455
It wasn't her money, it was paid out of my gf's mom's pocket since she has a high paying job. Also she literally asked to let her die years before actually dying. Sheer insanity if you ask me

>>213523907 (OP)
>DUDE THE BOOMERS ARE TAKING UP SO MUCH MONEY OF THE GOVERNMENT BUDGET!! KILL THEM ALL NOW!!!
Pension literally is not a money problem, but a production problem. Working-age people just need to produce enough goods for themselves, boomers, and kids. And that's more than easily possible nowadays.

>>213523907 (OP)
Don't lie, your country just provides assitance dying and spends the money saved to import more Moroccans

>>213525714
>my gf's mom's pocket since she has a high paying job.
And who raised her mum? Who paid for her education so she could get a well paid job? In whose house did she live?

>>213525851
>And who raised her mum?
It's expected to have your parents not let you starve
Who paid for her education so she could get a well paid job?
The taxes. She worked her way up the corporate ladder after joining right after high school
>In whose house did she live?
It's expected to have your parents not abandon you as a kid

>>213525370
exactly. Same situation here. Heaps of money squandered to borrow time not worth living.

She was always confused, paranoid and constantly begged to die, even after the doctors put her on antidepressants (because putting a suffering dementia patent on antidepressants is preferable to putting them out of their misery)

>>213525455
We are not doing these people a service by extending the worst years of their lives. Her life has not been more fulfilling or worth living because we extended it with a decade of taking pills, surgeries and mental care.

>>213525782
It is more about the pointlessness of it all. My grandmother lived a worse life because we kept her alive in the state she was in. This does not go for every pensioner of course, but for a large part of them these interventions are just extending suffering and people look at you as if you're a monster if you speak up about it.

>>213525804
There is no assisted dying for people with even mildly advanced dementia in this country. You need to be deemed "sane" to make the decision to die and a dementia patient is not.

that's why you should kill yourself when you hit 75 or 80 even if you are healthy because otherwhise you fall in that alzheimer hole you don't what's going on

>>213523938
That's a step too far.

>>213524278
so what,, you want the state to euthanize people when they deem fit?

>>213525984
>We are not doing these people a service by extending the worst years of their lives.
Could you not decide for other people if they like their life or not, mr Adolf?

>>213526014
Be careful hat you wish for. Here a 23 year old girl got euthanized because of irredeemable ptsd and depression, because 6 years earlier she was in the Brussels train station attack by ISIS.
So basically, now everytime she saw an Arab she gets 'Nam flashbacks, and the cognitive dissonance got so unbearable he mother agreed to have her euthanized at age 23, and our journos all wrote about how brave she was.
I feel absolutely disgusted I have to share a country with scumbags that promote or sanctify this.

https://nypost.com/2022/10/08/brussels-bombing-survivor-shanti-de-corte-23-dead-by-euthanasia/

>>213526126
why didnt she just move to a white country like iceland or poland

>>213526074
Those are her own words.

>>213526070
No? When a person is clearly in mental distress and repeatedly says they want to die they should get the opportunity, even if they have dementia

>>213526151
Why do you think? Women are social creatures, they adopt the cultural narrative, going against the grain is social suicide and unthinkable for them.

>>213526152
Yeah that's exactly the argument the journo scum drummed up when they first legalized euthanasia here. They did not say: we're going to euthanize depressed adolescent girls.

>>213526271
You have your head twisted if you think journalists are the ones who provide the reasoning behind policy decisions.

We already have euthanasia policy that could be extended to young people in severe cases, I just don't see why it should be offered to those people and not be extended to those sufferers of dementia that are clearly mentally distressed and repeatedly beg to die.

Moreover: what else should have happened to someone who clearly does not want to live, has exhausted all avenues of therapy/medicine over the span of a decade and does not have the balls to do it themselves? Force them to live on and suffer? why exactly?

Stop discussing killing fully grown adult people here. Euthanasia is murder.

>>213526420
>You have your head twisted if you think journalists are the ones who provide the reasoning behind policy decisions.
It's called social proof, journalists write about topics that are given to them in order to influence public opinion about something. In other words: if the press is talking about it, it's important and I should care about it.
Also, refusing to kill someone is not forcing them to live. You can always kill yourself if others refuse to do it for you.

>>213526465
Murder is an illegal killing. If euthanasia is legal, by definition it cannot be murder.

>>213526490
Murder is unjustified killing, not illegal killing. What is justified or unjustified is determined by objective morality, and not on laws passed by politicians.

>>213526465
Murder is justified in certain cases. Like when someone commits a war crime it is justified to kill them. Or if someone suffers much, has exhausted all options to alleviate the suffering and wishes their life would end but does not have the balls to do it themselves.

"Stop discussing" sounds like "Your arguments are too strong but I don't like it"

>>213526490
>If euthanasia is legal, by definition it cannot be murder.
There is also something like morality and it prevails over whatever human-drawn laws. Murder is murder, no matter what euphemism you use in your law to bring yourself the peace of mind.

>>213526508
>objective morality

>>213526420
The journos drum up the narrative, make things palatable.
The whole idea is despicable imho. There are still people out there that believe it is wrong in any case and frankly I'm more inclined to agree with them. And if your argument is mainly financial you must be one soulless husk of a man.

>>213526556
Yes, objective morality, if you believe objective morality doesn't exist then you don't believe that good or evil exist.

>>213526509
>Your arguments are too strong
My argument is 6 million innconent Jewish lives erased from this world in the name of an ideology similar to yours, which started exactly with "innocent arguments and discussions" like the one you're having right now

>>213526508
It is specifically a legal term. You're correct in the sense that the killing has to be legally unjustified, aka illegal, in order for it to be a murder.

>>213526509
What if you don't have the balls to tell the euthanizer you want to be euthanized? Should someone else be allowed to do it for you?

You are under a moral obligation to treat the people around you with dignity and respect the inviolability of their right to life. Feel free to ignore this if you want, but doing so will corrode your soul and make you even more miserable

>>213526557
>There are still people out there that believe it is wrong in any case and frankly I'm more inclined to agree with them.
why?

>And if your argument is mainly financial you must be one soulless husk of a man.
It's about the suffering of these people. The financial aspect is subordinated to the suffering aspect. It reinforces the absurdity of this system but is not the main argument.

>>213524693
My exact thoughts from the start of covid. Wish it was extremely lethal so all these old fucks would die and leave the world in a better place. But unfortunately all it did was fuck over young people even more. I hate boomers to much, they've done nothing but ruin the world in every kind of way.

>>213526587
The concept of murder has existed for thousands of years, long before the term became a legal term. Laws do not decide morality, morality should decide laws. Just because a bunch of politicians decide that an unjustified killing, such as abortion, is legal, doesn't change the fact that that killing is murder.

>>213524693
having a virus kill off billions would have fucked up society for decade afterwards.

>>213526679
Think a bit deeper. Thousands of years ago, how would you be able to tell a murder apart from a normal killing unless you had a legal system capable of distinguishing the two, which had a proscribed punishment for breaches of law?
Leviticus 24:17
“’Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death."
1 Samuel 15:3
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."
Thousands of years ago the Bible talked about this. Some killings, such as wartime killings, were legal, whereas other killings, such as killing random people in peacetime, was illegal (see: Cain). Not all killings are equal.

>>213526799
>Thousands of years ago, how would you be able to tell a murder apart from a normal killing
Objective morality, which precedes legal laws

The Old testament isn't a reliable historical source, the genocide of the Amaleks was murder.

>>213526584
Nazis started with the T4 Aktion which killed undesiderables. Very different than letting an 85 old die who is asking you to let him die and would die in a couple months without expensive and constant medical assistance

>>213524278
>amongst which is that you're sane of mind
well that bars the target audience from the process, so what's the point?

>>213526926
There are degrees to being sane of mind. You might not see a suicidal person as being clear of mind, but what they mean is that you should be able to foresee the consequences of (your) actions. A normal suicidal person can see those, a dementia patient cannot. That's the distinction here.

>>213526897
>Very different
It's actually not different at all

>>213527049
ah well
legalese is a language of its own, innit

>westoids want to kill their grandparents because they see them as a burden
damn you really lost your moral compass because of capitalism
not everything is about the money yiu greedy sick fucks

>>213526533
Right and wrong is a separate topic from legal and illegal. In America you can intentionally infect people with AIDS and it's legal, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's important to separate legal terminology from right and wrong, that's what I'm trying to demonstrate. We cannot just say something is murder if we don't like it, murder doesn't mean bad or good, it means illegal.

>>213526871
Even if you have objective morality, you still need laws in order to enforce that morality, right? You can't just say, this is wrong, don't do it, because people will just ignore you.

>>213527112
In my example the grandma asked to let her die which would be as simple as not pump her full of medication and let her body fails in a couple months

>>213527247
what favor are you doing someone who cannot remember who they are, wakes up in pain, is constantly paranoid and constantly begs to die by extending their misery?

>>213527247
not to play the devil's advocate too much, but at some point, the morally wrong decision is letting someone lead a lesser life
keeping someone like the description he provides of his grandmother alive is the moral wrongdoing, just like people who are handicapped to the point of basically being vegetables in wheelchairs eating from a tube their entire lives
that's no way of life, and it's unethical to prolong their suffering over relatives' feefees

>>213527764
always amusing but never surprising that white people are the only reasonable people ITT. It seems slavs have an IQ ceiling.

bump

>>213524985
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>>213524586
>>213524631
>>213524977
>>213525137
DOGFUCKING
RAPED
KIKE

>>213529596
forget everything I said about euthanasia. People like you should be involuntarily euthanized

>>213529746
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