Thread 213792297

>Germans conquer Baltic Prussians
>Prussians assimilate and become indistinguishable from other Germans

>Germans conquer Estonians and Latvians
>virtually zero assimilation despite hundreds of years of control

How come?

Shut up fat

>>213792297 (OP)
>>virtually zero assimilation despite hundreds of years of control
not true

>>213792521
Rude, I thought it was a good question. Would you prefer me to have added the 37th race bait thread to the catalog instead.

>>213792554
Thoughtful threads like this do feel like they get ignored, here.

>>213792552
What influence have Germans left on Estonian culture?

>>213792554
No, actually. I retract my "Shut up fat".

Poland actually had many crusades against the prussians hundreds of years before the germans, they were already exhausted from centuries of fighting

>>213792297 (OP)
>Prussians assimilate and become indistinguishable from other Germans
There was mass immigration of Germans into Prussia while the original prussians were genocided, meanwhile in the Baltic the Germans were always a small aristocratic minority

>>213792640
Sense of ordnung, hard work, caring about your surroundings, high trust society, high level of education, protestantism (nowadays turned into atheism like everywhere), basically Prussian virtues.

>>213792297 (OP)
Assimilation was actually a very common phenomenon for Estonians moving to cities. Those in rural areas did not assimilate because their exposure to German language was rather rare, most just finished the German-language elementary school but once they returned to their village they would only speak Estonian and there was no point to switch to German since everyone spoke Estonian there.

As for Prussians, remember they were physically genocided and simply ethnically replaced with German (also Polish and Lithuanian) immigrants. Very few of them survived and their community was destroyed so they had no choice but to become German, if they already became a minority surrounded by a sea of Germans.

What were the native Prussians like?

>>213793178
They had cult of big oak trees and were quite against the coming Germans, attacking them from the woods all the time.

>>213792297 (OP)
VGH.........

>>213793196
>>213793178
also interesting is that they believed in some form of reincarnation (old Indo-European belief that somehow survived in Prussia as well as India) and that your future incarnation depends on how brave you were in the battlefield, those who died like heroes in fierce fight reincarnated into aristocracy while those who were cowards were reborn as stones or animals
that's why they would never retreat from the battlefield and fought to death, which is why they were such a pain in the ass for everyone around and Teutons needed several centuries to deal with them
but that's also the reason why they got genocided almost completely, they never surrendered even when the battle was clearly lost

>>213792640
About a third of our vocabulary comes from german language. Our written language was originally developed by germans. Other cultural stuff I dont know much about but germanphiles used to be common here until ww2.

>>213792297 (OP)
Germans can't assimilate people. If they could Poles, Czech and Hungarians wouldn't exist.

>>213792297 (OP)
Prussians didn't assimilate. They died out.
They were literally begging Poles to free them after a century of Teuton rule, but it was already too late then

>>213793196
>>213793287
Hmm.

>>213793454
>but germanphiles used to be common here until ww2.
didn't you expel most of your German nobility after ww1, though?
>>213793484
they can, just probably slower than one could expect
but they managed to do this in (what is now) east Germany or largely in Silesia

>>213792839
>>213793597
genocide of prussians is a legend
the teutonic order just created a urban culture in prussia that encouraged assimilation while estonia and latvia were much more rural and socially immobile.

>>213793484
>If they could Poles, Czech and Hungarians wouldn't exist.
because those groups were more civilised than all those small polabian tribes

>>213793840
It's not true. Silesians were by far most civilized Poles and actually that was the reason why germanization worked on them so well - because they attended German schools (Poles didn't attend any schools around this time), served in German-speaking army so once you already read German, especially to read and write in it, you naturally prefer to use it over Polish because of way wider availability of sources of information. Also they just lived in mixed areas with Germans and saw that German farms are more efficient, look better and so on, so they tried to adopt their lifestyle which also often entailed cultural and linguistic germanization, because back then there was a common idea that German excellence is largely determined by their sophisticated and vocabulary-rich language.

Also it kinda depends on which era germanization started, it was quite easy to germanize people before the 19th century nationalism broke out, after that most nations already got national consciousness and defended their identity, even if it clearly harmed their economic or individual interest.

>>213793886
the biggest reason silesia was germanised is because of the mongol attack on it
also much of what happened in prussia also applies there, culture of meritocracy and assimilation that didn't exist in latvia

>>213793886
>before the 19th century nationalism broke out, after that most nations already got national consciousness and defended their identity, even if it clearly harmed their economic or individual interest.
vgh imagine if the rejuvination of grosshungarium happened 100 years before it did in the OTL... they'd still have their mountain borders

>>213793825
I don't think Prussia was on average more urbanized than let's say Latvia, actually Riga was always at least as important city as Konigsberg, if not more. Genocide was real and Teutonic chronicles admit it openly, just back then they saw it as a merit and a good deed in the eyes of the Christian God to outroot paganism from yet another land, even if with sword and fire.

>>213793904
>the biggest reason silesia was germanised is because of the mongol attack on it
That definitely contributed to it but let's not exaggerate its effect, as you can see in >>213793791, Polish language held strong around Breslau, so the German-cultural centre of Silesia, just around 17-18th centuries, so long after Mongols. It was actually the takeover of Silesia by Prussia in the 1740s that started the most effective process of germanization (through compulsory schooling in German and conscription), that lasted until ~1850s when Polish nationalism already emerged also within the peasantry and that stopped advance of German language.

>>213792297 (OP)
the way they teach it in history class it's really simple
>prussia
>close to germany
>mass movement of peasants
>most of the native population gets wiped out
>terra mariana
>far away from germany
>no mass movement of peasants, can't genocide the natives cause someone needs to farm
>rule as nobility instead

it's basically the difference between anglo america and latinx america, except with nowhere near as racemixing as in latinx america since we've retained our original YDNA haplogroup distribution more or less.
>>213792640
bruh. Estonian and Latvian culture are incredibly Germanized.

>>213794020
>Estonian and Latvian culture are incredibly Germanized.
were*
nowadays, like it or not, Russian culture is more pronounced in both
I mean, your average Latvian/Estonian has no idea about modern German music, movies or books. Meanwhile Russian media is still consumed by ethnic Balts, whether you like it or not.

>>213794127
>has no idea about modern German music, movies or books
surely they read stuff like this

>>213794158
idk what it is but whatever it is, the title is in Spanish

>>213793825
>>213793597

Old Prussians didn't die out. We have genetics now and in this case it's pretty easy to make some conclusions since Baltic speakers and Germans have some distinct signatures that the other lacks.

East Prussian descendant Germans have pretty high amounts of Y-haplogroup N which is basically zero in other Germans, very rare in other Indo-Europeans but common in Balts and Finno-Ugric people. That alone puts male lineage of East Prussian Germans at half Old Prussian. Female lineage would presumably be even more Balt since German male + Old Prussian female would be the more common pairing.

People will do this in more detail, right now it depends on private individuals of pre-WWII East Prussian descendants as big funders aren't interested in this un-PC question. But we already know that Old Prussians definitely didn't die out, they were assimilated and the scraps of info that currently exist suggest that East Prussian Germans might have actually been more Balt than German.

>>213794180
the author is a native of Zabrze mmkay

>>213794193
didn't know about him but it looks like he's staunchly anti-catholic which makes him based in my book, though probably his silesian kins hate him because they're crazily catholic

>>213793936
>I don't think Prussia was on average more urbanized than let's say Latvia
East Prussia had more people in 1939 than Latvia today and like a third of Latvia lives in Riga.
Also, Riga was basically German for most of its history. If most of Latvia were urbanised like it then most of Latvia would be german speaking.

>>213793484
Germans do not like to admit this, but they have more in common with Poles, Czechs, Hungarians etc than they do with French, Dutch, Belgians and English. That's why when the order comes down to destroy Western civilization, there is no hesitation

>>213794127
>your national culture is what media slop you consume in current year
that's not what I am fucking talking about, retard. I mean everything from language to national identity to ancestral religion to all the random cultural practices and ethical norms that get impressed on you since childhood.

yes there's russian influence too but it's far more surface level and generally considered a lower class thing.
>>213794158
middle class and above latvians barely consume any russian content either. the old farts have their ussr nostalgia slop but a lot of it is local ussr slop that was made in latvian.

>>213794235
>than Latvia today
that's not an achievement, Latvia today has almost the same number of people as Latvia in 1939

>and like a third of Latvia lives in Riga.
Yes, which kinda proves how urbanized this country is, you can imagine their national culture is dictated by Riga and Rigans who are mentally urbanized.

>Also, Riga was basically German for most of its history. If most of Latvia were urbanised like it then most of Latvia would be german speaking.

Every town (at least on the level of province capital) in Latvia was predominantly German speaking.
And it's not only about urbanization, really. As I said, in Silesia germanization finally reached rural areas as well. So did it in east Prussia. So more factors played a role there.

>>213794273
Britain and France declared war on Germany, in that war of your picture.

>>213794273
>Germans do not like to admit this
depends who you ask
their chuds LOVE admitting this

>>213794310
>middle class and above latvians barely consume any russian content either.
bro, there is another thread right now about kvass and you do drink kvass which is a typical Russia privychka. And there are dozens of traits like this that are already deeply rooted in Latvia which make influence of Russian culture/lifestyle much more prominent in modern Latvians.

>>213794313
Prussia and Silesia were also under direct German rule while Latvia and Estonia were fiefs of Sweden, Poland or Russia at various times

>>213794273
Dutch people literally identified as Germans well into the 20th century. How much in common they have depends on what german region you are talking about. But it's really Hungarians and Poles that have something in common with us because they were Germanised, and not us Magyarised

>>213794348
I agree, that surely played a role too. But that doesn't disprove the fact that Prussian genocide was a thing. Obviously, no genocide erases completely everyone and everything but it is a historical fact that a large part of Prussian population was physically killed which definitely facilitated germanization of the few Prussians left.

Didn't have enough monarch points to culture convert

>>213794376
>have something in common with us
Well, Germany is big and diverse. Obviously Ossis can have more in common with us (even if they don't say it aloud) than they might do with Bavarians, except for the language. But obviously Rhinelanders or Saarlanders are essentially western Europeans.

>>213794376
The dutch thing is because parts of the Netherlands speak low Saxon.

>>213794430
If you speak German there is this great documentary that descries the difference of Eastern Germany and Western Germany throughout history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks4KBJDDpNw

>>213794488
>If you speak German
I don't but thankfully in the AI era it's not a problem, m8

>>213794338
>Germans invaded eastward
Seems more like they're the protectors of the West.

>>213794488
>that descries the difference of Eastern Germany and Western Germany throughout history.
It's not a secret that the expellees from Poland/Czechia who moved to Germany after 1945 were often subjected to discrimination (especially the more west they settled in) and were seen as "not real Germans", "Slavs in disguise", "lazy peasants with backward mentality", "stupid Nazi voters who brought all these miseries on us" etc. And that was before the West/East German division was created politically.

>>213794127
>I mean, your average Latvian/Estonian has no idea about modern German music, movies or

Well duh. The Germans lost the world wars. But they dominated Estonia and Latvia from the middle ages to WWII so Estonians and Latvians have half a millennium of music, culture, architecture, art etc that is extremely German influenced, a lot of it just German culture translated to Latvian or Estonian.

When they sing traditional songs for Christmas, funeral, wedding etc it's probably a German song or a German influenced song. Etc.

>Meanwhile Russian media is still consumed by ethnic Balts, whether you like it or not.

wtf lol

The Americans were already culturally dominating the USSR so badly that the Russians sold out their empire for Big Macs. When the USSR collapsed Russian influence went to zero and the young generations instantly abandoned knowledge of Russian in favor of English.

Mind you this is probably not a smart thing to do considering Balts and Finns could profit from relations with the giant neighbor and it would be good to at least know something about it.

>>213794565
>When the USSR collapsed Russian influence went to zero and the young generations instantly abandoned knowledge of Russian in favor of English.
hahah, no, believe me it's not true, i know that region pretty well
it's literally impossible to live in Riga or Tallin or even Vilnius and not to know Russian even if you're a die-hard Baltic nationalist with 0% Slavic ancestry

>>213794603

You've never been to Tallinn. I've lived in Tallinn and visited often ever since it was still USSR (I'm old).

I studied Russian in Finnish school but only enough to read Cyrillic and do basic greetings and stuff. I know a lot more Russian than almost any young Estonian I met.

Old generations that went to school during the USSR know Russian but post-Soviet generations of Estonians just completely abandoned it. For a while after the collapse of the USSR a lot of Estonians studied Finnish and we could get by in Tallinn speaking only Finnish but even that disappeared because English dominance is so overwhelming and young Estonians now start talking English to me when they realize I'm Finnish.

>>213794743
>I know a lot more Russian than almost any young Estonian I met.
No, just because Estonians pretend that they don't know Russian or they don't like using it doesn't mean they don't know it. I often use Russian words while discussing things with ex-USSRians even here because many things are not easily translatable to English and I'm always understood.

>>213794781
>Estonians pretend that they don't know Russian or they don't like using it doesn't mean they don't know it
It does
Ethnic estonians under, say, 35 don't speak russian in everyday life and even those who study it in school don't use it, how would they retain any ability in it?
Russian speakers only speak it with each other, with the rest of the population they will always speak estonian or english

>>213794547
50% of sleswig-holsatia is Pommeranian/East Prussian today.

>>213794884
>how would they retain any ability in it?
reading graffiti in cyrillic on every wall/commieblock while going to and back from work surely helps

>>213794906
is it reflected in their contemporary culture/dialect in any way or they just assimilated completely to whatever local culture that existed prior to their arrival?

>>213794781

Yes this is how old people act. Again, I can tell that you don't interact with any big number of young Estonians because they just genuinely don't know Russian.

Young Estonians mostly don't grow up in Russian ghetto neighborhoods, they don't take Russian in school and the one foreign language that they get constantly exposed to from TV, internet etc is English. They would have to actively make an effort to learn Russian and of course very few of them do.

If hearing the language of the ghettoes of your city spoken when you walk around was enough to learn a language I would have learned Somalian and Arabic by living in Helsinki.

>>213792297 (OP)
>>Prussians assimilate
that's not the case
germans largely replaced the baltic prussians
they did way less settling in livonia but there were still a very large german presence there as well

>>213795077
No it caused all the dialects to die out in favour of standard high german. Ironically they use a dialect that is further apart from all their native dialects to communicate.

test

>>213792297 (OP)
We just got turned into the peasant class separate from the german rulers, no need to assimilate as long as we plowed the fields and shit

>>213795110
why would a Turk have such extensive knowledge on north-eastern European historical affairs
from which Baltic city does your Russian gf come from?

>>213795111
>No it caused all the dialects to die out in favour of standard high german.
The same happened in western Poland, seems like a general rule.

>>213794781
>>213794603
lmao knowing 5 ways to tell someone to suck dick in russian is not "knowing russian". It's impossible to live in Vilnius and not HEAR russian (thanks to a combo of the latest interslavic squabble and us acting like retards with the potato fuhrer), but saying you need to SPEAK russian is plain retarded letmetellyouaboutyourcountry nonsense.

>>213795173
you can learn more about russian politics doomscrolling on tiktok than your russian girlfriend.

>>213796230
im not sure this topic concerns modern Russian politics in any way

>>213792297 (OP)
why

Courland and Livland were not settled as extensively as Prussia was. There were also several Prussian uprisings in the 13th Century which led to harsh reprisals and resettlements. Still, we have written records of native Prussians celebrating traditionally Baltic rituals with a Christian coat of paint from several centuries later.

>>213792297 (OP)
based

>>213792521
>>213792685
underage