Thread 214003721

Greek (ancient) edition

>What language(s) are you learning?
>Share language learning experiences!
>Ask questions about your target language!
>Help people who want to learn a new language!
>Participate in translation challenges or make your own!
>Make frens!

Read the wiki:
https://4chanint.miraheze.org/wiki/The_Official_/int/_How_to_Learn_A_Foreign_Language_Guide_Wiki

Useful links:
>Free language‐learning book archive:
https://mega.nz/folder/INlRkAQC#CthKI9-_kmDNyrOx12Ojbw
>Books on linguistics and language courses:
https://mega.nz/#F!Ad8DkLoI!jj_mdUDX_ay-8D9l3-DbnQ
>Assorted language resources and some nice visual guides:
https://pastebin.com/ACEmVqua
>Torrents with more resources than you’ll ever need for 30 plus languages:
https://archive(dot)ph/x0dFH
>Russianon’s list of comprehensible input resources:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wXd0V32TjCFsr1-F_en_lA4MI-i7JtyYf26cWLtPRec
>Massive collection of textbooks on various languages, sorted by family
https://theswissbay.ch/pdf/Books/Linguistics/
>/lang/ inpoot torrents
https://rentry.org/inpoot
>Refold Anki decks
https://rentry.org/refold

previous thread: >>213930184

Salutem vobis, fratri externi, hodie has litteras scribo

>i want to learn how to speak chinese properly. what should i be looking for, phonetic guides?
>i don't care about reading or anything else, i just want to be able to say chinese words properly so i can string sounds together to sound like i know chinese
I never learned Mandarin, but I was once forced to go to a Chinese Sunday school as a child. They tried to teach us how to say words and I always messed up the tones. They'd say "No, you said it with this tone, you have to say it with that tone" and then I'd try again and say it with the wrong tone again without meaning to. I barely remember anything from back then, only that I was frustrated. I probably said other things wrong as well.
Anyway, this has convinced me that to say it properly, you have to train your ear to hear it properly, probably by doing a bunch of minimal pair testing and just listening to a lot of Chinese.

>>214004395
Anonymous Anonymoo Suo S.D.

Tam diu in scribendo defecisti. Cur? Anxii et solliciti unum verbum de te expectavimus. Saepius ad nos litteras mittas.

A.D. XIII Kal. Sept. Brundisio

Bonan matenon

>>214003721 (OP)
εὖγε τοῦ Ἑλληνοφιλοῦ νήματος ὠγαθέ

>you know that vowel sound that comes after the consonant?
>why don't we write it before the consonant!
why are indian scripts like this?

>>213988561
Pick an easy or medium difficulty language with lots of resources and stick to it for at least 2-3 months with the right method. Once you achieve some decent amount of progress and you prove to yourself that the hobby is "doable", your brain starts to crave more and the ship basically runs itself. Occasionally you'll hit a wall somewhere where you need to re-adjust your strategy which will feel "unfun" and give you the urge to switch languages but you have to push through and evolve your method. One eternity later, you'll be fluent and you'll probably start learning another language because why not, you already did it once, might as well learn 10 more and let it become your entire personality.

>>214008195
>Pick an easy or medium difficulty language with lots of resources and stick to it for at least 2-3 months with the right method
Even this can be hard for someone with no motivation, only learning a language due to economic necessity.
I would also recommend aestheticizing the language itself. If it's say, French, then associate about French language with positive feelings. Think about how awesome it would be to just hear French and understand it or read it in a book and be able to follow it. Think about French culture and stuff.

Do any of you journal in your TLs?
I try to keep a kind of commonplace book in mine where I just write down things that interest me

>>214009198
No, because I know I would make lots of mistakes.
My only goal is to be able to understand, anyway.

>>214008947
The word motivation is so lame. What does it even mean? What's the difference between motivation and motive?
The way you guys use it, you would think it means "ability to force yourself to suffer through a task you really don't want to do in order to reach a goal" but how is that different from discipline?
If I make the task less dreadful or even fairly enjoyable, am I increasing my motivation or decreasing my resistance?

>>213997092
https://youtu.be/onsIEvJxuoo?feature=shared
This song is a way to learn the entire syllabary, and since all chinese characters are one syllable it will teach you effectively all of the basic pronunciation.

who's your TL immersion waifu?

>>214011088
Shel.

>>214011232
>tfw Shel is your TL waifu but sorting by easiness gives you a long string of Andrea videos instead, and you have to pay $8 to unlock more easy Shel videos

Does anyone know that feel?

>>214009645
The way I think about it is:
Motivation is the subconscious internal drive that compels you to do the work, and discipline is when you lack motivation but you decide to force yourself to do it anyway because you have some higher abstract reasons ("motives"). You acquire motivation naturally once you demonstrate to yourself that a certain set of actions leads to a desired result through direct experience. Discipline requires conscious willpower to maintain and overrides your instincts ("internal resistance") temporarily so you can get the work done, but in the long-term it's unsustainable and you end up burning out (and that's a good thing because you don't want to keep doing something that doesn't work).

Language learning is tough to get into because there's a huge delay between doing the work and seeing progress, so you need to go in blind for a while and trust the process, which requires some amount of discipline. Once your brain learns that doing A leads to B i.e. studying leads to progress, you no longer need discipline and you now have an internal drive to do it and the anticipation of making progress makes you feel good.

The way people think about motivation misses the mark, in my opinion. There is a focus on "motives", coming up with abstract reasons for why doing the work will pay off i.e. I might get a job or girlfriend or people will think I'm impressive, but this doesn't lead to motivation because the path is still unknown and unproven. Motivation is the implicit, experiential knowledge that a set of actions can lead to a desired result, you need lived-experience as a basis for it. Until you do the work and it produces results, your brain is still uncertain if putting in more energy into this endeavor will pay off so it creates internal resistance that you have to overcome with discipline.

>>214011395
No because I'm a DS paypig.

every day is a new opportunity
you can do this
you will succeed
you will do your anki
you will input
you will succeed
for every day is a new opportunity
every day is a new opportunity.

>>214011625
>There is a focus on "motives", coming up with abstract reasons for why doing the work will pay off i.e. I might get a job or girlfriend or people will think I'm impressive, but this doesn't lead to motivation because the path is still unknown and unproven. Motivation is the implicit, experiential knowledge that a set of actions can lead to a desired result, you need lived-experience as a basis for it. Until you do the work and it produces results, your brain is still uncertain if putting in more energy into this endeavor will pay off so it creates internal resistance that you have to overcome with discipline.
Hmm, but I'm not so disciplined, and I've never learned a language as an adult, so where does my motivation come from?
I don't even get much of a morale boost from noticing progress, its just dreaming of the result that keeps me going.

>>214005060
Salve, hic dies mihi primum diem hac tabula scribo.

>>214013850
>where does my motivation come from?
Here's your answer:
>its just dreaming of the result that keeps me going.
>>214009645
>The way you guys use it, you would think it means "ability to force yourself to suffer through a task you really don't want to do in order to reach a goal" but how is that different from discipline?
I'm the one who said to aestheticize the language. That makes doing the grind something you want to do, because just using the language is enough of a novelty and an incentive to keep going, until the task becomes more fun. I would call it discipline if you just suffered through the grind through sheer force of will and habit. That's different from your motive, which is the reason you want to learn the language in the first place.
>If I make the task less dreadful or even fairly enjoyable, am I increasing my motivation or decreasing my resistance?
Both, I guess?

good afternoon /lang/

>>214007171
Unum Italiam quod graecum loquitur barbarum est

>>214015300
ironic

>>214015300
uti rusum latine dicas quaeso frutex

>>214003721 (OP)
I study greece at a church its pretty cozy. Young people too surprisingly

>>214004395
>>214009198
>>214005060
salvēte, virī linguā latīnā loquentēs! congredīmur ut dē nihilō loquimur. in imāgine tuā scrīptum graecum aliquod vidī ergo gaudeō. scribō sed nōn in ūnō librō.

>>214015591
like those bible studies videos youtube recommends sometimes?

>>214013850
>I've never learned a language as an adult, so where does my motivation come from?

Sure, not to complete fluency, but you already have an established routine that has brought you results in the past. You can understand French media (more than most learners have ever achieved) and it doesn't take much energy to continue immersing. With German you're probably following what already worked for you and you're getting results, not as fast as French, but you can tell you're moving forward. Discipline is only required at the very beginning when you've never gotten real results in any language and the work seems overwhelming and the path uncertain. Once you have an established routine, tools that work for you, an idea of the process and how it's supposed to work, the activation energy required to do the work on a daily basis is minimal.

What the fuck is this true

90h later, I've finally finished Cyberpunk 2077 and the DLC in German. Not sure if I should replay it in Spanish or French next.

okay i need to learn grammar
my plan is to read through the chinese grammar wiki little by little until i get through the upper intermediate book
probably gonna take me a bit
i dont have the motivation to marathon it

>>214015616
Salve et tu, bone vir. De nihilo loqui mihi placet. Revera de aliquo loqui me taedet. Reveniamus in proximum una ad colloquium habendum, de nihil loquentes. Nunc vale.

>>214015591
Is it a Protestant group? Sounds comfy. I wish I could make language-learning friends at church.

>>214014310
>That's different from your motive, which is the reason you want to learn the language in the first place.
Yes, but then you need a reason to have the discipline, and this is why I find the terminology weird. "Motive" makes sense, but discipline can't exist unless you have a motive, because otherwise what is the point of being disciplined towards something you don't want? And if it is truly something you want, then why do you need motivation?
>>214017118
>the activation energy required to do the work on a daily basis is minimal.
Yeah, this is exactly my experience. I'm not even motivated so much by seeing progress anymore, but when the resistance decreases, then it becomes so easy to just watch anime or whatever else for fun, even if I get frustrated not understanding some dialogue it's not dreadful enough to make me completely want to stop. Or to not do it again the next day.
But I think I'm autistically obsessed with the goal, AND it took me not long to lower the resistance with French because of the shared voabulary with English and Portuguese. This is why I don't understand how someone can do it without a seriously strong motive.

>>214018276
very rare but not unheard of for adults to reach a good enough pronunciation to sound native. or close enough to trick natives over the phone

i think the fastest adult learners generally learn comprehension faster than kids (words/grammar)

>>214011088
youtube videos of cute asian girls + language reactor for pop-up dictionary = profit

>>214018276
No, kids mispronounce shit all the time. It’s that adults have to apply conscious effort. But our ability to apply conscious effort is actually our advantage.

>>214015698
Mostly just learning the language, you're expected to listen to the priest at liturgy who speaks modern and some ancient Greek lol

>>214019083
Greek orthodox, check out your local churches theyre popular midwest though I don't know about the rest of nation.

>>214003721 (OP)
I say that shit on a regular basis

ChatGPT seems surprisingly good for Latin. I still expect it to hallucinate and make errors sometimes but it really helped break down the grammar in the first paragraph of Harrius Potter lel

>>214019142
>And if it is truly something you want, then why do you need motivation?
That's what I wonder about the people asking about finding motivation. Maybe it's an economic migrant who just doesn't feel anything about the language of the country they're migrating to.

>>214018276
yes pretty much. there are obviously a tiny amount of adults it doesn’t apply to but they have some rare thing in their brain which helps them and also treat their language learning like a full time job.

>>214021747
i will fight on the dying hill that llms are bad; caveat to that is using them to learn languages (exceptions exist to that). it's pretty alright with latin. the hallucinations are there but they haven't been too frequent, either that or i'm still in complete shitter league and can't notice when it's doing it.

a german guy said he dropped spanish to learn french because he found a better deck. link plz

Bump

Mortician showed me how bad I truly am.

I feel like studying another language now but since dropping Japanese I've been able to put a lot of effort into my other languages guilt free

Lute might be the ultimate silver bullet dabbler’s tool for literacy.

>>214018276
Kids have the unique benefit of people willing to blabber to them in their language day in day out. They have constant high quality input and get their output corrected.

>pretend to get a call in another language in order to show off my language skills to people around me
holy shit I'm a genius

>>214023818
hey I'm that german, unfortunately that deck is french-german, no english https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1677131827

Dabbling is spanish after japanese feels so good holy shit im cooming

I have decided to stop learning languages, instead I will focus on studying French literature and Old Norse literature
I am no longer in the language learning hobby

>>214027486
Lute + using ChatGPT to explain confusing grammar/idiom makes early intensive reading much more doable
still a slog but it's an option

>>214034644
I've been using a very old install of LWT for a while. I'm reluctant to switch, but it's tempting just for the feature in lute where you can define a parent term. that's missing in LWT and is really annoying especially for german with the different verb forms.

I have decided to continue learning languages, and I will focus on studying my TLs
I am still in the language learning hobby

I have decided to pay $8 a month to Dreaming Languages, Inc. in perpetuity, so I can spend the rest of my life watching premium videos of my gf Shelcin talking to me in Spanish.

>>214035164
zased

>>214037183
Shel is my gf.

>>214038778
She would be too expensive for any one of us to afford her as a girlfriend by ourselves. But if we all pitch in $8, we can all have her to enjoy as our video gf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJsPd2U2sbE

Dreaming French needs more qts

>>214018276
with us it's like learning a second language, whereas with kids it's like they're replacing their first language as they're still like babies.

it's the difference between learning it as a skill and fundamentally changing as a person

to expand on this with an example>>214039928
if a kid competed against an adult in AJATT for example, learning a TL but staying in their NL country, they'd get whooped by an adult's superior metacognitive learning skills

>>214039928
Does it not depress you a little bit that no matter how many thousands of hours you put into learning your language you’ll always sound foreign to them

>>214018276
Yes this is true and backed by studies. While the critical period at large is not supported, when it comes to phonology we have strong evidence that very young children have a big edge when it comes to imitate and learn new phonemes. At one point one's phoneme repertoire becomes rigid and a type of selective hearing happens where adults map those phonemes to those of their native language. That's why accent persists so strongly among adults that have high functional fluency.

There is a very famous study where they primed Japanese children on different 'r'-sounds and having been primed for the English 'l' and 'r' had an easier time distinguishing them from the Japanese 'eru' sound even later in life.

>>214040014
>Does it not depress you
Not really
>no matter how many thousands of hours you put into learning your language you’ll always sound foreign to them
This is wrong though, there's plenty of adults who manage to completely get rid of their accent

>>214040014
no, because none of them give a fuck about having an accent in English

>>214040014
Not really because I am in individual that is secure in their identity. Learning a foreign language for me isn't an enterprise of escapism for that that is grounded in identity issues. In order to become fluent in a language in the first place you have to have a high tolerance of ambiguity and not be perfectionist in the first place.

I need to learn B2 level German in one year

I have 2-3 hours free for it daily

>>214040433
What happens in one year?

>>214040014
>you’ll always sound foreign to them
This is not a bad thing.

>>214040362
I guess I am insecure. I hear Indians and the like with their stupid accents and mock them so I probably fear that will happen to me

where the FUCK can I find PT-PT (portuguese) subtitle files online? (ASS, SRT, etc)

I need to learn B2 mandarin in half a year

>>214040433
according to the FSI German takes 36 weeks (828 class hours) to learn. so at 3 hours per day, you could learn it to whatever level they're talking about in 276 days or 40 weeks

>>214043407
The fags over at FSI study outside of class too though.

>>214040014
I don't care if frogs know that I'm not a native, the premier reason for learning the language is to engage with its literature in my case.

>>214043407
You realize that that those FSI "hours" don't include study time outside of class, right?

>>214039819
What's the schtick behind these "dreaming" channels?

>>214043707
I didn't realize that, but that makes more sense

>>214040574
Erdogan invades Germany

>>214043808
the schtick is total immersion with comprehensible input, starting with baby level stuff and working your way up. you're also supposed to avoid any grammar study or even reading or speaking until hundreds of hours of listening, but that part is questionable. regardless it's good content for inpoot

>>214035033
I’m still making separate entries to learn grammar anyways for Latin. My education on verb tenses is incomplete.

¿Dónde está el baño?

>>214019631
People over the phone usually think I'm Chinese, and over text they think it 100% of the time
But I think that's partially because there are so few people who learn Chinese + any pronunciation errors can be attributed to dialect or accent

>>214045660
Colombian warlords look like THIS?

so I just watch these dreaming Spanish videos over and over even though I don’t know what the fuck they are saying ?

>>214048362
trust the process, Nigel

>>214048433
just checking

>>214048362
¿Qué?

do you guys really think i should stop wasting my time and actually pick a language and learn it instead of dabbling around without any progress?
if yes, what language?

>>214048362
Are you watching the easiest "Superbeginner" videos? I would be surprised if you really have know idea what they're saying at all. But, yes, that's sort of what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to pay attention to the video and focusing on understanding the gist without focusing on the particulars of the language. Like in >>214045660, you might not understand the words she's saying, but you understand that asking where the toilet is from the context (her visible discomfort, the large drawing of a toilet floating next to her head, etc.). Over time, you'll have an easier time picking out words. Look at the definition of the different levels on your progress page and it will describe different levels of understanding.

And do keep in mind that even in the Superbeginner video section, not all the videos are of equal difficulty. Some are much easier than others. And if you're not paying for the premium videos, you'll quickly run through the easiest of the free videos.

>>214048831
You should learn Arabic and stop being a cuck, of course.

>>214048931
i think i can do one more foreign language alongside arabic

>>214048891
Maybe I overreacted lol. Yes I’m watching super beginner but I meant like I will understand maybe 3/4 words out of the whole video, if that’s normal then fair enough

linguam latīnam disce. mortuī tempus omne in mundō tibi exspectāre habent.

>>214048831
I don't really care

>>214050231
then why did you reply?

I think I found my calling: a language that has nothing but bangers and really cool songs.
Which language is that?

>>214050488
Mongolian

>>214050488
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf2Edoj3_t8
ecce

>>214042417
Why?

>>214048831
I just passed by SIELE B2 exam and Spanish. I don't really care what you ware doing, just wanted to share my progress.

>>214050488
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNM9uAFenBk

>>214042417
What is that in HSK level? I think you can easily get HSK3 in like 8 months if you are efficient with it - but efficiency often comes at the price of actually enjoying the process.

>>214050488
I'm biased, but think Sweden is underrated for non-meme, just good music, but people mostly care for the meme stuff.

Not religious, but crazy good random psalm for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfJxEOBUdPE. Tons of stuff like that that's completely unknown outside here and is better than it has any right to be.

>>214050488
Finnish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqthspSKZV8

do we not do challenges anymore? is the thread just all endless debate over methods and poking jordie?
what happened to 2023 /lang/ bruh, every thread had a challenge and people actually talking about their TLs rather than just wasting time talking in English about how their ALG/anki/grammar gooning method is the best

>>214052330
ChatGPT has made challenges obsolete.

>>214052358
That's somewhat sad. How do you use ChatGPT to practice? Can it be trusted for basic language learning?

>>214052576
>Can it be trusted for basic language learning?
no

>nooo, you mustn't tinpoot, you have to do translation exercises!!!!
No thank you

>>214052330
I'm not sure what you have in mind, but I recently started browsing this general after taking up Spanish. As a learner of the Spanish language I have posted both about the method I'm using to learn Spanish (Dreaming Spanish) and questions about Spanish pronunciation. Is it a surprise that a general targeted towards people learning languages is going to contain mostly posts about learning languages? What kinds of "challenges" do you have in mind? I don't see the "endless debate over methods" you're referring to either. And I don't suppose your meta post about other posters' posts in the threads is the kind of post you want to see from others. If you love challenges so much and want to see them in the thread, why don't you propose a challenge of your own instead of whining because no one else is doing it for you?

>>214053572
He wants to try and show off his shit french to the lads it makes him feel special

>>214040134
But does this only apply to pronunciation or language learning more broadly?

>>214040134
So you're saying I'm lucky that I half-studied a bunch of languages when I was young and don't have this problem? Maybe es ist nicht ober für mich.

>>214055381
NTA but yes, you fool.

can you learn languages with chronic migraines?