Thread 216017474

>>216007671
>Can you explain how this dynamic worked? I've heard of it happening in other countries, but I've never really understood what the dynamic looks like.
So basically serfdom was illegal in Sweden, but you still would in most cases have a lord over you who you paid rent to. In general the nobility tried to maximize their own profits and power, meaning they tried to extract as much value out of the peasants who worked their land. Meanwhile you could also be on "crown land" in which you were under the king directly. The king generally tried to maximize economic health and population growth (future soldiers and taxpayers) so the working conditions on crown land were in general always better than being under a noble. In Sweden feudalism didn't really develop to the same extent as in other countries. So the king wasn't that dependent on a class of knights he had to give out land to. Instead Sweden relied mostly on levies and later a conscription system to produce its fighting capability. The end result of this was that the nobles tried to constantly undermine the king, whilst the king tried to centralise power around himself. The king could rely on the peasantry to support him, and many peasants revolts etc. were instigated by the king basically calling on the peasantry to come and fuck shit up.

The largest peasants revolt in Finland is a prime example. Sweden was in a civil war as the crown had ended up in Polish Catholic hands, the Swedes revolted and war ensued. The nobility in Finland sided with the Polish catholic king because they calculated that their own power would increase as the king would be too busy managing Poland, and couldn't micromanage the kingdom as a Swedish king in Stockholm could. They exploited the peasants and the Swedish then pretender king instigated a revolt against the nobility. This became the "Cudgel war" as the peasants armed themselves with cudgels and went knight clubbing. eventually the Peasants were defeated but in the end the Swedish pretender king won, and the lives of the peasants were improved as the exploitative taxes were lifted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkojJ8cX4To
As a side note; foreign nobles (sometimes land would be given or would end up in their hands) such as german ones were immensely hated, for they didn't understand that serfdom was illegal in Sweden. And working for a german noble had probably the worst conditions for the average man.

>>216017538
Later on in the 1800s and forwards the Cudgel war has been interpreted by nationalists as some independence struggle or revolt against the swedes but this is simply not the case. The real story is much more nuanced and interesting. The war was also very brutal. The nobles had mostly foreign mercenaries as their force so neither side had really any reason to care about the well-being of the other side. At the start of the revolt the peasants for example cut holes in the ice and threw captured knaves into the holes, and forced them to drown by poking them with poles/spears. Later the nobles promised amnesty to the peasants if they laid down their arms, and the peasants took the bait. Once they had handed in their weapons the nobles attacked and killed many of them.

>>216017538
>The nobility in Finland sided with the Polish catholic king
based noble Finns

pretty cool

>>216017892
>>216017538
>>216017474 (OP)
why are n*rdoids like this?

Studied history in uni and I can say this in short.
Kings, Queens and Nobility in Sweden have always lived with the knowledge that if they treat the people too poorly they will end up getting whacked.
The high and mighty always found ways of abusing the system, the peasants always found ways of fighting back. Nobody really won or lost, just a lot of bloodshed.

One of the main reasons the Swedish leading class never managed to get absolute power over the lower classes was the constant pressure of war with other nations and the peasants knew this.

>>216017984
Well they lost.
Pic related Duke Karl (the protestant Swedish pretender king) insults the body of Klaus Fleming at the end of the war. Klaus Fleming was the leader of the nobles in Finland at this time, basically a military dictator. The nobles won the cudgel war, then almost immediately after Klaus Fleming died. Meanwhile Duke Karl had liberated Sweden and gathered an army, he then came and defeated the nobles in Finland. And pulled the beard of Klaus Flemings body mocking him. End result was that Duke Karl became King Charles the IX

>>216018021
It's about standing with your back straight. But a med would never understand what that means.

>Be Sweden in the 1700s
>Nobles in charge through the estates general
>A corporatist parliament representing the four estates (Nobles, Clergy, Burghers and Peasants) but in reality nobles have all power
>Nobles are divided into two political parties and are WHOLLY on the payroll of foreign interests
>Corruption out in the open
>"Voltaire's favourite country" btw
>Be Gustav III of Sweden
>Reinstate absolute monarchy in a bloodless coup after a century of nobles fucking the kingdom over
>Start war against Russia
>Going pretty well
>Nobles (all officers were nobles) betray him and refuse to follow orders
>Has to make peace with russia, still a minor Swedish victory
>Gustav III calls the parliament
>After formalities, orders the nobles to FUCK OFF as revenge
>Nobles awestruck, but slowly start leaving in complete shock
>Gustav III intends to rule without them from here on out
>later the King goes to a Masquerade
>The nobles shoot him dead as revenge.

Also in the 1600s and at various other times there were these things called "Reductions" where the Crown basically just confiscated noble land. In Finland this was liked by the peasantry as it meant more people become "crown peasants" which had better conditions as I described before. In Finland many small family farms etc. can still trace their origin to the Great reduction. Also should mention that there were also peasants who actually owned their own land. They still had to pay taxes, but no rent to anyone. In Sweden the peasants were thus probably the freest and most influential compared to any other country in Europe at the time.

very interdasting thread

>>216020058
Yeah I just hope the american I originally replied to sees it but he's probably asleep or soemthing

So TLDR because of free peasantry the nobility where basically sideline compared to the rest of europe. They were still around and powerful but it was not in the Kings interest to empower them. leading to King often acting in favour of the peasantry, not necessarily because he was good guy or anything but because it was his power base and needed it to balance out the nobility. also as >>216018132
hinted at the Peasants own agency should not be overlooked. The peasants in Dalarna in Sweden for example basically just revolted whenever the powers that be did something to upset them, and they often were so powerful they could enforce their demands.

At this church the Cudgel war began. After the church service a drunken group of peasants assaulted a group of knaves. They had received word from Duke Karl that he would lift the quartering of soldiers in peasant homes. A major grievance. The practice was put in place during a war against russia, but as the war ended and the aforementioned civil war broke out, the finnish nobility continued the practice. The peasants were ok with the practice when there was a war against a foreign foe, but could not accept it now that there was a civil war. Duke Karl exploited this grievance and instigated the revolt by promising to end the practice, whilst Klaus Fleming and the nobles insisted on keeping it. He promised to help the peasants if they revolted but also said they wouldn't even need his help, because they were so many they could simply wave bills and cudgels around a bit and the nobles would be powerless to stop them.

>>216017474 (OP)
Thanks for the history info.
>>216018845
>Gustav III
Love that guy.
The last great ruler of Sweden.

>>216023267
also among the last to lead his own troops in battle. Two of my direct ancestors fought under him. Just common soldiers. They were rewarded for "exemplary service in their duty" but it doesn't mean much. The books say this of almost everyone who participated unless they fucked up. It's like a service medal, everyone got one.

>>216023893
Did they get at least a decent bonus pay or something?
I wish I was there killing ruZZians.

>>216024217
Yes, soldiers got a small pay, and a state pension after they retired. At the time nobody else got any pensions whatsoever so it was a big deal. I don't remember if the specific "excelled in service" line came with any actual rewards. If it did it might have been like an extra paycheck or something of that sort. Now that I think of it, I think it was so that the state pension was tied to participating in a war. So if there was no war when you were alive you just didn't get the pension. So the recognition in the book might've been like a proof that you were entitled to the pension.

>>216023893
I can trace my family back to the 17th century, with lots of people in military careers, and it's funny how many of them through hundreds of years lived and died within only a few kilometers of where I live. One Lieutenant Colonel under Gustav III being quartered where everyone in my family has done their military service.
Makes the world seem very small.

bump

>>216024546
>>216025432
Great stuff. It's cool to know your ancestors were tough soldiers especially serving under decent and competent guys like Gustav III.
Cheers, lads.

bump

Interesting thread, thanks for sharing finnbro.

>>216029164
I just wanted to answer the american from yesterday because I went to sleep and the thread archived before I woke up and could answer him.

>>216028951
>>216030627
Post more Finnish military facts.

>>216030674
ok
another one of my ancestors fought with Gustav II in GERMANY during the thirty years war. He came back with a danish wife.
Another ancestor was 19 when he went off to fight in Pomerania in the Pomeranian war in the mid 1700s. At the time the Nobles were in charge through the estates general. And the Hats party was in charge. As I hinted at before there were two political parties, the Hats and the Caps. The Hats were financed by the French, they were militarists and protectionists, whilst the Caps were financed by Russia and they liked free trade instead. So basically when the Caps were in charge they wouldn't finance the military and then the Hats would come in and start a war with rotten uniforms and not enough muskets etc. And this continued until Gustav III took over. Anyway the Pomeranian war went badly and many soldiers died to disease (not enough supplies) but my ancestor survived. Before he had left, there was a 27 year old woman who lived in the same village. When he went to the war, the records say the woman went to work at some nobles mansion as a farmhand. When my ancestor came back the same year they moved to the same village and married, so it's likely they were lovebirds already before the war and had made promises to each other and so on.

>>216031154
the women were of course also ancestors of mine but you know what I mean :DDD

>>216031154
Beautiful.
Very beautiful.
I wish I had comfy story of my ancestors like yours instead of the Russian aristocrat thing and I only know that bastard.

>>216031407
the reason this is possible is because of the parish registry (and other sources such as military payrolls) so most Finns and Swedes have a paper trail they can follow to the 1600s, and then if you have someone at least a bit notable you can push it even further. I have one who was some Knave who lived at the end of the 1500s. The parish registry records; Baptisms, marriages and deaths with names and dates. In addition whenever someone moves to a different parish, the pastor had to make a note of it. They also sometimes have other notes if the pastor felt like it, but most just did the bare minimum. But that's already plentiful of source material to work with. You can directly follow the records to the 1600s and see if they moved about and such. Other sources like the military rolls, records payments given to soldiers, and also other notations. This is where the "excelled in service" comes from. There's name, rank, amount paid, and notes (if any). A third source are court proceedings. But this only applies if any of your ancestors were for some reason at the court, either as victim or accused.
These three sources give a good record of the commoners all the way to the 1600s. But earlier than that the only way to have any records is if your ancestor was someone notable. Of course nobles, but also important priests, burghers like big merchants and so on.

>>216032071
Were your ancestors farmer peasants of some sort or city slickers petite bourgeois?
I only know my ancestors were irrelevant landowners of some backwater shitholes.
The only notable one was a Russian aristocrat and that's a long story.

>>216032382
They were all just peasants. With the exception of that one guy I mentioned. And not even well off peasants, they didn't own any land but worked others fields. Plenty of soldiers but that's nothing out of the ordinary, there was the allotment system which was basically proto-conscription. Soldiers often learned some trade on campaign so a lot of the time they could also pass that knowledge to the next generation. So it's not uncommon to have a soldier and his sons who are recorded as cobblers for example. So some of those and some seamen. Mostly just humble peasants and farmhands. In the 19th and 20th century many of these became working class people in factories and so on.

>>216032645
Very great read. Great thread.
Thank you, Finnish bro.

I hope the american wakes up soon so he can see this thread I made for him

autismo maximo ITT

>>216034555
Fuck off!!

>>216034555
>autismo maximo ITT
>t. goes yelling MAMA MIA DIO MIO QUESTO È ANNUDAH PASTA when someone puts ketchup in a different line in the pizza

Here's another fact: during the great power era, around 60% of males in Sweden (including Finland) died because of war.

I will bump for the final time before going to bed, I hope the american I made this thread for sees it at some point.

>>216032382
Go back

one final bump (for real this time)

Another free bump for the finn

For the Finland