Thread 63974623

Well bros, is Wikipedia (the ultimate repository of human knowledge) right? Is the M2 carbine an assault rifle?

.30 carbine is basically an intermediate round so why not.

>>63974623 (OP)
Given how it was used I'd call it a proto-PDW.

>>63974623 (OP)
Yeah, but not the first
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_Machine_Rifle

>>63974623 (OP)
>select-fire
>intermediate cartridge
>detachable box magazine
I don't see why not, it checks all the boxes

>>63974623 (OP)
Of course wikipedia is right. I wrote that.

>>63974628
This is true.
>>63974645
This is true

>>63974623 (OP)
Uhh....Kinda? It's an intermediate cartridge and a shortened rifle. It's basically a Kalashnikov with a smaller mag.

>>63974662
Spank you for your cervix!

>>63974653
>pistol grip
hmmm

>>63974687
https://youtu.be/2XwbS0AYBbw?si=KIC7hhjNMPU3qivw
never say never

>>63974623 (OP)
yes, select fire intermediate cartridge
>>63974687
you are thinking assault weapon, which is a nonsense designation used by retards who don't know shit, like you and congressman

>>63974623 (OP)
Sorta but in light of the debate around the subject, they should have just labeled the M2 a "selective fire rifle". The actual article discusses the subject of it debatably being an assault rifle to a good enough degree.
On another note, I understand that Wikipedia is supposed to be a general encyclopedia without particular focus on niche topics but they really get a lot wrong or are unnecessarily sparse on information when it comes to firearm and firearm manufacturer articles.
>>63974687
I'd say a gun still counts with or without a pistol grip. A traditionally-stocked rifle can theoretically be inserted into a pistol-gripped stock and vice versa, and would be functionally similar either way. For example, an AC-556 is a true assault rifle but can be used with either a folding or traditional Mini-14 stock.

>>63974623 (OP)
>Wikipedia
I trust Encyclopedia Dramatica and the ar/k/hive to give me more accurate information on weapons and war related history.
Yes that website somehow still exists, it's probably hosted in some god forsaken Albanian slum running on dial up but still alive non the less.

We should add to their guns article.

>>63974628
If it ain't necked down it ain't an intermediate round

>>63974831
who cares about looks, performance is what matters and it behaves similar to intermediate

>>63974623 (OP)
Way to show you fucks are all no-gun and historically illiterate. The m2 and m3 carbine were select fire with full auto. capability. THAT is what made those two models assault rifles. The wiki even parses that out if you imbeciles had even a 2nd grade reading level. Fuck I swear your stupidity has got all my jimmies rustled now.

>>63974866
Are you stupid? He fuckin said the M2. He wasn't asking about the M1. You made the same retard reading mistake you accuse OP of

>>63974866
Relax man

>>63974623 (OP)
Absolutely not! Although it checks most boxes mentioned ITT it lacks a distinct, yet overlooked feature: the optics mount.
Sturmgewehr: ja
AK-47: da
G-3: ja
M-16: yes

>>63974687
Couldn't be less relevant

>>63974623 (OP)
I'd say nah. Assault rifles implicate a historic shift in manufacturing from a musket-like wood construction to a more modern design. Wood was of couse still used in assault rifles, until it was replaced by plastic parts.

>>63974687
Yes. The M3 paratrooper version had a pistol grip and a folding stock.

>>63974972
M3 was the night-vision variant. M1A1, M1A3, and M2A1 were the paratrooper models.

>>63974995
Yes, you're right. I apologize greatly for my dishonor. It's no excuse, but I plead being exhausted from fighting a severe infection and antibiotics.
I will of course commit sudoku immediately.

>>63974831
.30-06 is an intermediate cartridge if ally you need is any amount of necking fown

>>63974623 (OP)
Yes and no? For its contemporaries it wasn't one.
It has all the big features we expect nowadays from assault rifles but doctrinally it wasn't considered one at the time. Or, if you'd argue that the doctrinal idea of an assault rifle only came up with the stg, it wasn't intended to fulfill an equivalent role.
It was still more of an improved SMG/PDW weapon for them.

>>63974623 (OP)
>no pistol grip

>>63974623 (OP)
Yes.

>>63974623 (OP)
It's an assault rifle in the same sense that the Sherman was a main battle tank.

Saying the M2 isn't an assault rifle is like saying the St. Chamond is a tank - correct at the time, but from the view of hindsight, incorrect. People at the time just didn't 'get it' yet. The M2 WAS an AR, but no one truly grasped what they had on their hands and thus didn't use it like one the way the Germans used the StG. By the same token, due to how new the concept was, the St. Chamond was considered a tank, but by even WW2 standards it was not a tank, but an assault gun, as having a turret became a defining feature of tanks after WW1 and you could not use a St. Chamond the way you could a proper turreted tank.

>>63974831
Then what is 50 beowulf and 350 legend?

>>63974895
... while omitting the iron sights.

>>63975209
Thumper.

why does no one do repros of this

>>63975106
You mean .308, retard?

>>63974623 (OP)
>intermediate cartridge
>less power than .357 mag
Yeah OK lmao.

>>63975346
Packed plenty of caskets in northern ireland.

>>63975346
Define power. A .357 magnum does not have the effective range of .30cal.

>>63975346
.357 makes more foot-lbs when using the same length bbl.

>>63975500
It arguably does. 30 carbine only has a significantly flatter trajectory after ~200m.

>>63975330
30-06 has got a neck. It's slight, but it's got one. "Necked down" as as requirement to be an assault rifle round is a rote phrase people say without thinking through

>>63974831
Intermediate means intermediate. Defining them as having been necked down omits cartridges that were designed from the ground up, or cartridges that were actually necked up, like .300 Blackout.
>>63975106
>>63975658
I don't think you know what he means.

>>63974623 (OP)
Not exactly, but it’s close enough that I wouldn’t throw a fit over it.

>>63975658
?
.308 is the retardedly interpreted "intermediate" version of .30-06.

>>63974623 (OP)
It’s not quite an assault rifle, not quite a battle rifle, and not quite a submachine gun. The M2 oddly defies your typical military small arm classifications.

>>63975796
If it's got a distinct neck section, it's necked down. Now I await anons adding personal caveats so they can Calvinball the conversation.

>>63975863
Anon said a neck (because necked down just means it has a distinct neck section) is a requirement for an intermediate cartridge. I pointed out according to that, 30-06 is an intermediate cartridge, to highlight how dumb of a position that is. I didn't talk about .308, and going further down that road is a tangent that misunderstands the point

>>63975871
It's an assault rifle.

>>63974650
why would you even imply that the M2 could be the first when it entered prodction in 1944?

>>63974623 (OP)
>>63974653
> >intermediate cartridge

>>63974623 (OP)
By modern standards it's more of a PDW.
For most of the Cold War it could have been considered an assault rifle or SMG.
It's hard to say if it's technically one thing or another when the terms like "Assault Rifle", "PDW", and "SMG" are, themselves, nebulous and sometimes overlap.

>>63976393
Lurk until you get some reading comprehension.

>>63975209
.50 Beowulf is absolutely a full power cartridge. Just because it's micro action length doesn't make it an intermediate cartridge.

>>63976550
> uhm actually i wasn't implying that at all

It’s incredible how far guns have come. Picrel more or less duplicates the ballistics of an m2 carbine from a package many times shorter and like 2-3x lighter. Picrel is an m2 carbine you can wear on your hip.

But anyways, i think I’d consider it almost-an-assault-rifle. Energy a bit too low, overbore ratio much too low. Sectional energy is crap - external ballistics suck and it probabaly can’t penetrate anything. But the gun was small and light, with light recoil, and capacity was high compared to other rifles.

>>63975209
50 beowulf I would not consider intermediate.
>Energy is on the order of 2500ft*lbs or so.
>cartridge case head is gigantic
>mag capacity too low
>cartridge weighs more than 308
>harsh recoil precludes useful full auto
>dogshit bullet shape nukes BC. The trajectory is awful. All that energy is shed to the atmosphere very quickly.
>penetration ability is meh, at best. Definitely no hard armor.

350 legend is arguably intermediate, depending on where you draw the line for minimum overbore ratio. If the case were shorter and could accept heavier and sleeker bullets, it would be more akin to 300 blackout (better able to retain energy over range) and then hardly anyone could argue about its status as an intermediate cartridge.

>>63974831
In practice, yeah kinda. But really, no. It’s about the ratio of propellant volume to bore area. You could achieve any ratio with a (sufficiently long) straight-walled cartridge.

>>63976587
50 Beowulf impresses 12 year olds and others who understand nothing about cartridges, lol. “Oh bro it’s a 50 cal! It’s like a 50BMG AR bro!” I can’t think of a single use case for 50 Beowulf that is not magnitudes better served by something else.

>>63976531
PDW’s, in their present incarnations, are emotional support weapons at best. Barely smaller and lighter than a full size rifle, but just as cumbersome. Gives the user a false sense of firepower superiority just because it’s bigger than a pistol. A true PDW should be able to be WORN on one’s person, passively, leaving one’s hands free to do other things. Only the MP7 permits this.

>”assault rifle is nebulous”
True, but also words stopping meaning things some years ago. The M7 is considered an assault rifle now, and the 6.8x51 intermediate, lol.

>>63974653
The controversy is over 30 carbine’s status as an intermediate cartridge. It checks all the boxes for one except for mid-range performance on account of the rainbow trajectory and low BC. For these same reasons, it also can’t really penetrate anything. It’s more like a stretched-out pistol cartridge. It’s necked down progeny, the 22 spitfire, one could consider intermediate. Really they should’ve loaded that with super long and super fine, lightweight bullets. Could’ve easily equaled the BC and velocity of 5.56.

>>63976750
>It checks all the boxes for one except for
There is only one box.
Is it intermediate in power between typical military pistol and full power rifle cartridges.

>>63974831
case geometry was never a part of the definition, rather it simply being between a pistol and rifle cartridge in power, with the effective range being out to 300 yards.

>>63976750
isn't a part of the problem also the .30s rounded cap?

>>63976763
>rounded cap.

Do you mean the round-nose bullet? If so, yes that is part of the problem, contributing to a low BC.

>>63976754
Then any cartridge between ~400 and ~2200ft*lbs is intermediate. Including all the revolver magnums, 50AE, 454 casull, etc. An 11 pound bowling ball moving at 50fps is intermediate.

So muzzle energy is not the whole story. The bullet must also retain sufficient energy to be lethal at 300 yards, and enough velocity to not drop too much by that point. To do this, the BC and velocity (for high MPBR) must be high. So you want a relatively high amount of powder behind the bullet, and this necessitates bottlenecking.

>>63974623 (OP)
This is a lefty psy-op so it can hopefully be banned in the future.

>>63975268
Doesn't matter anyway because optics mount means absolutely nothing, the STG was hardly ever fitted with one (most AKs weren't either) and the G3 isn't an assault rifle

>>63975905
the statement
>If it ain't necked down it ain't an intermediate round
does not imply
>If it's necked down it's an intermediate round

>>63974623 (OP)
>Wikipedia

>>63974628
>.30 carbine is basically an intermediate round
No it's not, it has the energy of .357 Mag fired out of a carbine barrel.

>>63975905
>because necked down just means it has a distinct neck section
Jesus fucking Christ no it doesn't you retarded tourist.

>>63974687
>>63974883
>>63974958
Why does everyone keep bringing up these irrelevant points for why it supposedly doesn't count

>>63974623 (OP)
The carbine was designed as a defensive weapon, in contrast to "real" assault rifles which were designed as offensive weapons, and as a full replacement of single-shot rifles. The carbine was unable to replace single-shot rifles. The carbine may fulfill the technical definitions of an assault rifle, but the way it was designed and used does not permit the classification as a true assault rifle. I propose the classification as a npcsmg, non-pistol calibre submachine gun, or supersub machinegun.

>>63977040
NPCSMG is a mouthful and sounds like a joke. SSMG is better.

>>63976588
That was someone else but again, what is it with these irrelevant points?
>it's not an assault rifle because of um no pistol grip, no optics mount and... production year???
>yeah that has everything to do with the definition of an assault rifle

>>63977359
> and... production year???
my nigga
the point was that
>>63974650
clearly implied that the M2 could be considered the first assault rifle (and if you took your own advice to "lurk moar" you would know about the "behold the first assault rifle"-(shitpost)-threads that pop up every 4 to 6 months)
which is total nonsese considering that the M2 came out in 1944, 2 years after the Mkb 42

>>63974623 (OP)
It was select fire, at least many of them were, so yes, it does technically meet that definition.

You have to think of this in a WW2 context, back then there was no AR-15, or AK-47.

An "assault rifle" was something like an STG-44 , BAR or full auto M1 carbine. Looking back I honestly think the M1 carbine in full auto was the closest thing US forces had to an "Assault" rifle. It was select fire and practically the "intermediate caliber" AR-15 of its day.

>>63977615
Dude I just showed you I'm not the same anon that told you to lurk more and you're still treating me like I am. I never even said it was the first assault rifle that link was to the Burton LMR used during WW1, for that reason I agree with him on the reading comprehension

>>63977755
>used during WW1
Or at least made around then not a lot were made

>>63977755
>>63977758
If we're including prototypes that never made it into military service, or even mass production, then full-auto converted Winchester Model 1907 rifles predate the Burton by at least a few years.

>>63977778
And I wouldn't disagree with you on that I just assumed that M1907s were all semi-auto

>>63977017
Having 357 mag energy in the 1940s was intermediate.
Most pistol cartridges at the time were extremely anemic.

>>63977872
I dont understand why people think .30 carbine is "weak" like its .357 magnum on steroids.... you would not stand in front of a .357 colt python so why would people think a cartridge that is significantly stronger than .357 mag out of pistol barrel is weak? Its just crazy to me, honestly.

Yeah, compared to .30-06 its significantly less, but its also a lot stronger than most people think.

>>63978134
>like its .357 magnum on steroids

No it's not. It has the same energy as a standard .357 load fired out of a lever action.
Lethal, sure. Intermediate rifle round territory? Not even close.
It has two thirds of the energy of 7.92x33 Kurz or 5.56x45.

>>63977017
Which is pretty potent, around the energy of 5.56 at the muzzle depending on load
>>63974623 (OP)
I'd honestly label as a SMG if calling it a carbine or a rifle isn't good enough for you

>>63978327
.357 out of a lever action IS .357 magnum on steroids man.

Some buffalo bore loads rival or even exceed .30-30 in energy when fired out of a lever gun.

>>63974623 (OP)
.30 carbine is more of a PDW round than an intermediate round. If it had been chambered in something with a little more punch, then yes, it could have been a proper assault rifle.

>>63974623 (OP)
THE M1 CARBINE WAS THE PRODUCT OF THE AMERICAN ARMY IN SEARCH OF A LIGHT RIFLE
THE SELECT-FIRE CARBINES ARE THEREFORE APPROPIATELLY CLASSIFIED AS LIGHT ASSAULT RIFLES

>>63978432
Okay, can you please lower your voice?

>>63978439
sorry, I had a bad day, please accept carbine patty as a token of apology
the m1 carbine was the product of the american army in search of a light rifle.
the select-fire carbines are therefore appropriately classified as light assault rifles.
if you follow this line of thought the answer to ops question is yes, but it is a light assault rifle, reflecting the less than intermediate muzzle energy.

the next question is: is the carbine a carbine? the barrel length is longer than the sturmgewehr.

>>63976735
Just imagine the MP7 in 5.7...

>>63978604
>>63978604
>mp7 in 5.7 we have at home
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Cq56aP0eAAU

>>63974623 (OP)
PDW(personal defensive weapon)

The m1 carbine and it's variants are the granpappie of the colt scamp, p90, etc. designed doctrinally as a rear echelon weapon for officers and vehicle crews in active combat zones.

>>63975195
.30 carbine has like 50 inches of drop at 300 yards when aimed with the original peep flip sight. Then the late and postwar sliding long range sight with a 200 yard zero setting would have the same 50" of drop drop at 500. Soldiers tried to use the m1 and m2 carbine "like an AR" in Korea and that directly led to the myth the caliber could bounce off a winter coat, your dipshit grandfather not realizing the dirt kicking up a hundred feet in front of the godless Chinaman was the bullet he shot.

>>63977755
> Dude I just showed you I'm not the same anon
> never even said it was the first assault rifle
nigga, then why do you even bring up the point of
> > production year???
if anything you need to get some reading comprehension

>>63978604
A much more sensible cartridge for such a short barrel.

Imagine it in something even more potent. Slightly bigger case, gigapressure, etc. 5.7 is NOT the limit for cartridge size feeding through the grip. The Indians managed to feed something almost identical in size to 5.56 MARS through a normal sized grip

>>63981941
Are you just trying to argue? You brought up production year what are you on about

>>63974958
What the fuck are you on about. The type of furniture has nothing to do it it, the Ak families had wooden furniture for years before going to plastic.

>>63975871
It's a PDW, it's intended role was go arm people who needed something more than a pistol but didn't need a M1 garand

>>63982649
It's not about the furniture. One of the features to differentiate assault rifles from their predecessors is that the main body is not made out of the same material as a musket.
A select-fire SKS with a detachable AK mag is not an assault rifle.

>>63984198
No it isnt, the construction is not a factor. Military rifles trended away from all wood construction because better and cheaper materials became available along with more complex designs.
A full auto Mini 14 is an assault rifle in every way and it has a full wooden body.

>>63984198
>A select-fire SKS with a detachable AK mag is not an assault rifle.

Yes it fucking is you retard.
>select fire
>intermediate cartridge
>detachable magazine
Are the three things that make a assault rifle, a full auto SKS with detachable magazines is more of an assault rifle than an M2/M3 carbine where the question mark hangs over whether .30 carbine is powerful enough to be an intermediate cartridge

>>63984236
>Military rifles trended away from all wood construction because better and cheaper materials became available
The replacement of steel by steel made the AK-47 possible.

>>63984236
>A full auto Mini 14 is an assault rifle in every way and it has a full wooden body
The "full wooden body" is the "premium" option. The Mini-14 was designed with a synthetic or laminated stock in mind. The Mini-14 is an assault rifle.

>>63984347
So it doesn't fucking matter what it's made of then does it.

>>63984427
Yes it does. Assault rifles are firearms which are optimized for the production capabilities of the (pre-)atomic age and later, as well as military use. Select fire, intermediate cartridge and detachable magazines are not sufficient characteristics. Also, doctrinal use has to be considered. How could the carbine be an assault rifle, they did not even have the word for it?

>>63974623 (OP)
Its an SMG. End of discussion.

>>63974958
The move from wood and steel to polymer and aluminum just happened to coincide (sort of) with the shift from full power to intermediate cartridges, but they have nothing to do with one another. The AKs originally used wood furniture. “Materials used” appear nowhere in the definition of an assault rifle. It’s just “select fire, intermediate, mag-fed”

>>63984750
You don’t know what an assault rifle is man stop talking out your ass, an assault rifle doesn’t require a pistol grip, it doesn’t require an optics mount, and it doesn’t require specific furniture. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a contrarian fag

>>63984750
You don’t know what an assault rifle is man stop talking out your ass. An assault rifle doesn’t require a pistol grip, it doesn’t require an optics mount, and it doesn’t require specific furniture. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a contrarian fag

>>63984750
>Select fire, intermediate cartridge and detachable magazines are not sufficient characteristics.
Those are the three requirements, everything else is just window dressing.
And a carbine is just a shortened rifle, things like the CAR-15 are assault rifles.
Fucking retard.

>>63974623 (OP)
Kinda, bit of a stretch but if you classify "automatic gun with rifled barrel and kinda smaller bullet" as an assault rifle, sure.

>>63987299
Nope it fits all the requirements i

>>63984198
have you ever picked up a firearm in your life?
even if what you are trying to say with your retarded nogunz gutterspeak is that "assault rifles" don't use a single piece stock, there are plenty of firearms that are not assault rifles, like the MAS 36, the Winchester 73, and basically every repeating shotgun ever made, where the foreend and buttstock are attached to the receiver as separate parts, and whether a gun uses a single-piece stock has nothing to do with the doctrinal purpose or even function of the gun, it's just a design choice based on manufacturing efficiency.

>>63974866
M2 is not an assault rifle

>>63991366
Yes it is

>>63988781
how many "single piece stock" firearms were designed from the get-go as military assault rifles?
M2 carbine: full-auto modification of M1 carbine, therefore not an assault rifle
AC-556: full-auto modification of Mini-14, therefore not an assault rifle
full-auto SKK with AK mag: full-auto modification of SKS, therefore not an assault rifle
M16: Armalite AR-15 designed from the get-go as assault rifle, therefore assault rifle
>>63987306
>>63974866
requirements which were defined by .... uhhh?? Wikipedia, source [18] US Army intelligence document FSTC-CW-07-03-70, page 105 etc... "Assault rifles are short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachinegun and rifle cartridges. Assault rifles are capable of delivering effective full automatic fire at ranges up to 300 meters."
The carbine is not able to do that. It's underpowered.
Take a closer look at submachine gun and pistol and rifle energies:
.45 Auto: 1120 J
.357 Magnun: 1100 J
10 mm Auto: 1050 J
.45 Remington–Thompson: 1580 J
.30 carbine: 1300 J
7.92×57mm Mauser: 4000 J
.30-06 Springfield: 4000 J
.303: 3500 J
verdict: .30 carbine: firmly in the range of pistol caliber rounds, not an intermediate round.

Some idiot will also argue that the Sturmgewehr 58 is not an assault rifle, and that the Mpi-K is not a busmachine gun.

>>63988781
NTA but your are "affirming the consequent" here : his point is that; full stock implies not assault rifle.
You use that point to affirm that; stock + grip doesn't imply assault rifle.

Neither statement contradicts the other, even if the first statement (not yours) is wrong.

>>63992106
Why would you not list the energy of actual intermediate rounds?
>Assault rifles are capable of delivering effective full automatic fire at ranges up to 300 meters."
Borderline excludes the AK47/M by that definition.

>>63984959
Not listening to the opinion of a slop poster, even if I agree with it.

>>63992155
Is the AKS-74U a SMG?
>>63992141
If the number of full stock rifles designed from the get-go as select-fire rifles is equal to zero, a full stock is a characteristic of not-assault rifles.

>>63992155
>Borderline excludes the AK47/M by that definition.
That's the "consensus" definition, but nobody bothers to read the source material. By the way, the source includes the AK47 as an assault rifle.

>>63992168
I posted slop because its a slop thread that deserves nothing more.
Serious replies here are nothing but a waste of time, so all you need to know is that it's an SMG.

>>63992214
Correct, the .30 carbine round is a pistol round e.g. AMT AutoMag III

>>63992232
Anything considered less than a full power rifle round is a pistol round. The term "assault rifle" is a non-term to begin with, you either have submachine guns/machine pistols or you have light machine guns. That is why the akm was so successful, because it is an SMG that doesnt pretend to be something else, and why the m16 got replaced by the m4, because it was an SMG that tried to be an infantry rifle.

>>63992291
No the M16 was a low-recoil high capacity infantry rifle, not an extended range SMG like the AK. It got replaced by the M4 because SMGs are fundamentally better and more useful than infantry rifles, and anyone who looked at infantry reports on SMGs in general noticed this. Ths is probably the real reason why the Stg44 started out being called the MP44, because it's fundamentally an extended range SMG, and as such is made with full-auto as it's primary fire mode, as indicated by it's use of constant recoil.

>>63992443
Forgot to add
>anyone who looked at infantry reports on SMGs in general
from WW2 I mean

>>63992443
Well put, had no idea they called it the MP44

>>63992443
>>63992531
Hitler shitting his pants In anger about the assault rifle concept, also probably factored into the name.

>>63974623 (OP)
M2 is a PDW. The M16 replaced it. At the time, the full auto M14 was an "assault rifle," in doctrine.

>>63992604
wait for the select-fire, intermediate cartridge, detachable box magazine brigade ;^)

>>63992575
I'm pretty sure that's fuddlore. To me the fact Hitler approved the gun around the time it got renamed as "sturmgewehr" is indicative of his dislike of the concept of replacing rifles with a weapon that was presented to him as an extended range SMG at first. It seems his acceptation required a change in terminology to fit Hitler's preconcieved notions on primary infantry armament, one of them seemingly being that a soldier's main weapon should be some kind of rifle.

>>63992604
m14 was a battle rifle like the FAL CETME, and G3. 7.62 Nato select fire.

>>63993086
Is the Sturmgewehr 58 a Sturmgewehr?

>>63993086
The Americans didn't have what came later to be referred to as an assault rifle at the time. Just like the AK was a submachine gun to the Soviets.

Of course, we now know what is considered a battle rifle and assault rifle. But this is a thread about the early Cold War where we still had automatic rifles and infantry rifles.

>>63992106
>>63992604
>>63992716
The thing that's crazy about this site is how impossible it is for people like this to accept they're wrong but instead they double down pretending they know what they're saying. Because even though it's anonymous and no one will know they ever lost an argument they're still worried about saving face.
>duhhh full auto variants of intermediate rifles aren't assault rifles even though they are
>single piece stock aren't assault rifles as if that makes any difference
>it has to be designed from the get go as an assault rifle it just does ok
>the 3 simple defining factors don't matter because I'm an annoying contrarian and I have to look for reasons to ignore them while calling you a simplelon for going by them
>I think a battle rifle model is an assault rifle and an assault rifle is an SMG because of uhhh... military designations
>I don't really know what an assault rifle is duhhhhhhhhhhh
I swear this r*ddit tier contrarianism is so tiresome

>>63994743
I would actually separate first model assault rifles (not their derivatives) between 2 categories : the extended range select-fire SMG (Ribeyrolles 1918, Burton 1917, MP43/44, AK, etc...) and the low-recoil select-fire high-capacity infantry rifle (Fedorov 1916, M16, FAMAS). The former is made to be primarily used in full-auto and is often supplemented by longer-ranged weapons, whereas the latter is made to be used primarily in semi-auto and to replace every infantry rifle, whether successful or not (usually not). Then there are more conceptually modern hybrid designs like the AUG, and to an extent the M16 and Fedorov 1916. My classification of the Fedorov is a bit hazardous because it would represent the very small 3rd category of select-fire, lightweight, low-recoil automatic rifles.
I also don't consider detachable mags a requirement to be an assault rifle. The HK36 for example used clips, but it's overall design is undoubtedly that of an assault rifle of the hybrid type, beyond rifle vs smg.

>>63994815
Point is nothing about the stock, pistol grip, optics mount, furniture, """doctrine""", terminology of 100 years ago, military designation of specific countries, or something being a select fire variant of a semi-automatic rifle is the deciding factor in what is an isn't an assault rifle. It's retarded to think otherwise. Also the Federov definitely isn't an assault rifle

>>63994815
>>63994837
>the extended range select-fire SMG (Ribeyrolles 1918, Burton 1917, MP43/44, AK, etc...)
>>63994837
And to call any of these SMGs is also stupid, if it doesn't fire a pistol calibre it isn't an SMG

>>63994815
>>63994837
>the extended range select-fire SMG (Ribeyrolles 1918, Burton 1917, MP43/44, AK, etc...)
And to call any of these SMGs is also stupid, if it doesn't fire a pistol calibre it isn't an SMG

>>63994837
>Point is nothing about the stock, pistol grip, optics mount, furniture, """doctrine""", terminology of 100 years ago, military designation of specific countries, or something being a select fire variant of a semi-automatic rifle is the deciding factor in what is an isn't an assault rifle.
Never said that.
>the Federov definitely isn't an assault rifle
Yeah it is faggot. 25 round quickly reloadable magazine, 6.5 arisaka out of a 520mm barrel had less than 2000 J of kinetic energy, well into intermediate territory, and the gun itself is select-fire. I won't even mention the fact it's intended doctrinal use was exactly the one of an assault rifle, aka replace every mosin with a fedorov used mostly in semi-auto with full-auto present if the need for an automatic rifle arise. It is an assault rifle, period.

>>63994843
That's why I called them EXTENDED RANGE smgs, nigger. Pistol cartridges have pistol range, so do normal SMGs, so an extended range SMG needs to use a non-pistol catridge. It's still an SMG conceptually, because it's a lightweight, high-capacity, low-recoil weapon meant to be used standing and in full-auto.

>>63994743
>how impossible it is for people like this to accept they're wrong
While generally true this is not the issue with this topic.

There is no actual clear cut definition as to what makes an assault rifle and assault rifle.
Common things people agree on is it being:
>select-fire
>detachable magazine
>intermediate cartridge
But as an example there is no definition for what makes a cartridge intermediate.
.32 Winchester Self-Loading wasn't called an intermediate cartridge nor was .30-30 Winchester And what about 6.5 arisaka or 6.5 carcano?

>>63995110
>Yeah it is faggot
No it isn't, everyone that says this is a retard. You're really gonna sit there and tell me something chambered in pic related is an assault rifle because "hurr 6.5 is a bit less powerful than .303", you're also lying anyway because it's just as powerful as 7.62 NATO. Your whole argument on "doctrine" is retarded as well because select fire battle rifles were made with the exact purpose in mind, only like the Federov they use full powered rifle cartridges which sets them apart completely. You don't know a god damn thing and you're just making stuff up on the spot
>That's why I called them EXTENDED RANGE smgs
I don't care what you called them your obscure personal beliefs don't equate to the objective classifications. It's like those 13yo CoD players that thought the AKS-74u was an SMG. You're literally just bending definitions for no good reason. You could've just seen this and went "well I suppose the M2 carbine is an assault rifle by todays standards" but no you have to show everyone you have this fountain of knowledge that's just pseudo-knowledge

>>63995220
>But as an example there is no definition for what makes a cartridge intermediate.
Being a step above pistol calibres but a step below rifle calibres

>>63974623 (OP)
Having a fit over calling something and assault rifle looks EXACTLY like having a fit over someone calling you a millennial.

>>63995500
>You're really gonna sit there and tell me something chambered in pic related is an assault rifle
Cartridge length is irrelevant to an intermediate classification. 6.5 arisaka has a max pressure of 43,000 psi, that's why it needs to be so large to get it's 139 grain bullet to the velocities it does.
>because "hurr 6.5 is a bit less powerful than .303", you're also lying anyway because it's just as powerful as 7.62 NATO
Literally kill yourself. The velocity given for 6.5 arisaka out of the Fedorov's barrel is 660 m/s, which is for a 139 grain bullet and gives a muzzle energy under 2000 J, that's an intermediate cartridge, and nowhere near 7.62 NATO or .303 levels you fucking nigger.
>You don't know a god damn thing and you're just making stuff up on the spot
You literally can't even look up basic information about the subject before posting. You're the one spewing lies to win the argument here, faggot.
>I don't care what you called them your obscure personal beliefs don't equate to the objective classifications.
Stop pretending you don't care because if that was true we wouldn't be here liar.
>You're literally just bending definitions for no good reason
No. The definition of SMG requiring it fires a pistol cartridge is a modern invention. The Germans called the Stg44 an SMG (MP44) before they changed it for political reasons despite 8mm kurz not being a pistol cartridge, my definition of SMG may not be contemporary but it's certainly not bending the contemporary one.
And if you have a problem with me giving those guns my own, substantiated classification then give your own and substantiate it too, because until you've done that you're wrong, because I have a reasoned classification to give them and you don't.

>>63995500
>You could've just seen this and went "well I suppose the M2 carbine is an assault rifle by todays standards" but no you have to show everyone you have this fountain of knowledge that's just pseudo-knowledge
Are you fucking triggered by the fact I can substantiate my reasoning ? Are you that fucking ignorant and stupid ?

>>63974623 (OP)
No. And stop using that gay term. It should be storm rifle.

>check thread a day later
>retards are still doubling down on the same retarded arguments.
Intermediate cartridge
Select fire
Feeds from a box magazine

>>63995620
>Cartridge length is irrelevant to an intermediate classification
Liar
>and gives a muzzle energy under 2000 J, that's an intermediate cartridge, and nowhere near 7.62 NATO or .303 levels
Liar
>You literally can't even look up basic information about the subject before posting
Yeah I did and it says you're a liar
>You're the one spewing lies to win the argument here, faggot.
Nah it's just I already know the truth on what is and isn't an assault rifle and don't need to entertain your pseudo-knowledge
>Stop pretending you don't care because if that was true we wouldn't be here
Well nah I don't care what you personally believe I care that you're passing off your obscure beliefs as known facts
>No. The definition of SMG requiring it fires a pistol cartridge is a modern invention. The Germans called the Stg44 an SMG (MP44) before they changed it for political reasons despite 8mm kurz not being a pistol cartridge, my definition of SMG may not be contemporary but it's certainly not bending the contemporary one.
And if you have a problem with me giving those guns my own, substantiated classification then give your own and substantiate it too, because until you've done that you're wrong, because I have a reasoned classification to give them and you don't.
Blah blah blah you're wrong and don't want to admit it I know
>Are you fucking triggered by the fact I can substantiate my reasoning ?
You can't though you've literally made up a bunch of reasons to be right, at the end of the day it's really simple what sets assault rifles apart but you have to show everyone how smart you think you are so make up reasons for why it's more complicated than that
>>63995644
Tell me about it

>>63995620
>Cartridge length is irrelevant to an intermediate classification
Liar
>and gives a muzzle energy under 2000 J, that's an intermediate cartridge, and nowhere near 7.62 NATO or .303 levels
Liar
>You literally can't even look up basic information about the subject before posting
Yeah I did and it says you're a liar
>You're the one spewing lies to win the argument here, faggot.
Nah it's just I already know the truth on what is and isn't an assault rifle and don't need to entertain your pseudo-knowledge
>Stop pretending you don't care because if that was true we wouldn't be here
Well nah I don't care what you personally believe I care that you're passing off your obscure beliefs as known facts
>No. The definition of SMG requiring it fires a pistol cartridge is a modern invention. The Germans called the Stg44 an SMG (MP44) before they changed it for political reasons despite 8mm kurz not being a pistol cartridge, my definition of SMG may not be contemporary but it's certainly not bending the contemporary one.
>And if you have a problem with me giving those guns my own, substantiated classification then give your own and substantiate it too, because until you've done that you're wrong, because I have a reasoned classification to give them and you don't.
Blah blah blah you're wrong and don't want to admit it I know
>Are you fucking triggered by the fact I can substantiate my reasoning ?
You can't though you've literally made up a bunch of reasons to be right, at the end of the day it's really simple what sets assault rifles apart but you have to show everyone how smart you think you are so make up reasons for why it's more complicated than that
>>63995644
Tell me about it

6.5 Arisaka

7.62 NATO

8mm Mauser

7.62R

>>63995659
You need to be 18 to post here.
>>63995644
Assault rifle is a role, not a technical definition. What people like you mean when they attach those technical characteristics to it is :
>controllable recoil under all circumstances
>accurate enough to hit man-sized targets
>quick-firing enough to suppress targets alone
> >300 m effective range
>quickly reloadable

It's just that weapons designed to fulfill this role and these criteria tends to have the technical characteristics you've given.
>>63995662
>he can't read that's from an 800mm barrel, not the Federov's 520mm one
Fucking pathetic.

>>63995749
I am 23
>Assault rifle is a role, not a technical definition. What people like you mean when they attach those technical characteristics to it is :
>>controllable recoil under all circumstances
>>accurate enough to hit man-sized targets
>>quick-firing enough to suppress targets alone
>> >300 m effective range
>>quickly reloadable
>It's just that weapons designed to fulfill this role and these criteria tends to have the technical characteristics you've given.
>it's not those 3 simple things that make something an assault rifle it's all these other vague definitions which you REALLY mean
I'm gonna keep saying what that other anon said
Intermediate cartridge
Select fire
Feeds from a box magazine
>>he can't read that's from an 800mm barrel, not the Federov's 520mm one
Yeah guys it's the barrel length guys that's what matters because... It just does ok???

>>63995820
>I am 23
You are pretty retarded
Wait no
>Yeah guys it's the barrel length guys that's what matters because... It just does ok???
You are a troll

Ok I get it now, you weren't serious, let's stop.

>>63995833
Stop getting so mad because no one buys your half baked contrarianism

>>63995928
>mad
I'm not mad anymore, genuinely so. Not since I realized you were just trolling and that I should stop wasting braincells arguing wih you
>contrarianism
I'm not going against the definition, I propose that it be expanded or refined. I am not a contrarian, however you are a textbook example of "half-baked contrarianism" since you've opposed every argument I've given without any reasoning or counter-argument. That's because you're trolling, and putting any effort in it, since you're essentially limited to saying no like a broken record and offloading the flaws in your discourse on me.

>>63995749
No, what I mean, and pretty much everyone who isn't a retard also means is that an assault rifle
>is select fire
>chambered in an intermediate cartridge
>feeds from a detachable box magazine
If it ticks those three boxes it's an assault rifle.
Everything else you've autismed up can be covered by literally anything, pic related would be an assault rifle.

>>63995820
>I am 23
The fuck does this have to do with anything, 'lil zoom zoom?
>capcha shitpost

>>63974831
>45-70 and 50-90 is a pistol cartridge

>>63995986
What seems to be triggering you in a desperate struggle to be right are the edge cases like the Federov (fires a full power cartridge but a weak downloaded one) and the M2 carbine (fires a powerful pistol cartridge). Everyone who isn't crippled by their autism is able to say 'those sort of cross the line but aren't truly assault rifles and were never used in that roles' and move on with their lives

Meant
>>63996012
For>>63995966

>>63976485
People love to point out that almost all firefights occur within 300m, most within 200m, when talking about 5.56

>>63995991
If you had actual reading comprehension and weren't a mouthbreather you'd see he accused me of being underage

>>63996030
You basically are.

>>63995966
Nah you are mad that's why you're writing loads, I get that you've said nothing but nonsense straight out the middle of your head but if you're gonna try and hide it you gotta do a better job than that
>I'm not going against the definition
Yes you are lmao
Intermediate cartridge
Select fire
Feeds from a box magazine
>>63996012
Yeah but the M2 carbine is an assault rifle while the Federov isn't

>>63995986
No, what I mean, and pretty much everyone who isn't a retard also means is that a swan
>is a large bird
>swims on lakes
>has white feathers

>>63995966
Don't bother talking to the retards who will never be able to fathom or appreciate the philosophy of firearms development.
>>63995986
Select fire, intermediate cartridge an detachable box magazines are emergent properties or very useful properties of objects which are known as assault rifles. If a firearm fits those criteria it could be a assault rifle, but not necessarily so. If the object does not fit those criteria, it could still be a assault rifle. Simple as.

>>63995986
The M16A2 does not fit the criteria, a three round burst hardly qualifies as select fire.

>>63996110
>Don't bother talking to the retards who will never be able to fathom or appreciate the philosophy of firearms development.

>>63996089
>is that a swan
>>is a large bird
>>swims on lakes
>>has white feathers
Yeah because you can make equivalences between animal species and types of man-made weapons can't you retard. Are you ESL because usually it's them who come up with the dumbest analogies conceivable

>>63996089
>>63996134
>>has white feathers
And you don't even know anything about bird species either hahahahaha you've been wrong on two things now

>>63996122
>a three round burst hardly qualifies as select fire.
But it is so it does

>>63996110
>If a firearm fits those criteria it could be a assault rifle, but not necessarily so.
So you're saying that those conditions are neither necessary nor sufficient? In that case, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions to define an assault rifle?

>>63974628
Out of a carbine it’s outperformed by .357 magnum
>>63974645
It certainly was intended to be that, but it was a very common front line weapon in the Pacific theater and was the most produced long gun in WW2.

30 carbine isn’t powerful enough to be intermediate, 75% the muzzle energy of 5.56, 70% the muzzle energy of 8mm Kurz and 5.45, 50% the muzzle energy of 7.62 Soviet, but the M2 and M3 are too big to fit into the common idea of a submachine gun or even more so a PDW. It’s like if an assault rifle and a submachine gun had a baby. Both are really cool, and the M1-3 is therefore also really cool.

What it certainly is is a carbine because carbines have no requirement to having or not having select fire capabilities (or even being semiautomatic). Even more than that it’s a pistol caliber carbine and the fact that it was so well liked, produced, and utilized just shows how awesome PCCs are and that anyone who shits on them is a mouth breathing retard who is gay and probably also a furry.

>>63996161
>So you're saying that those conditions are neither necessary nor sufficient?
That's correct, they are neither necessary nor sufficient. For all intents and purposes the HK36 is a assault rifle, even though it is not fed from a detachable box magazine. The HK36 is fed from a detachable box mag, but it is a (light) machinegun.
>In that case, what are the necessary and sufficient conditions to define an assault rifle?
I'd like to misquote Justice Potter Stewart on this:
>I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["assault rifle"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the carbine involved in this case is not that, although it is an awesome gun.

If you want, you can post your own criteria. I'll probably chime in a few hours.

>>63996234
>For all intents and purposes the HK36 is a assault rifle, even though it is not fed from a detachable box magazine. The HK36 is fed from a detachable box mag, but it is a (light) machinegun.
Why are you contradicting yourself though, isn't it a waste of energy to be this elaborate on the reasons you don't know what an assault rifle is

>>63996334
HK36 / HK13

>>63996340
>HK13
An SAW variant of the HK33. Another meaningless argument since that and the RPK etc are still derived from assault rifles

>>63974623 (OP)
Its not, you have to consider the rifle in the context of its role in the platoon/company. The whole point of an assault rifle is to mash together a bunch of small arms roles into one, so you only have to issue one rifle to the majority of soldiers. So no, the M1 Carbine filled a niche role in the platoon, that actual assault rifles made obsolete, same as the submachine gun for example. If anything it's is PDW

>>63996364
If the HK13 is not a machinge gun because it was derived from the HK33, the M2 carbine is not an assault rifle because it was derived from the M1 carbine.

>>63996367
BEHOLD AN ASSAULT RIFLE!

>>63996381
No it is a machine gun, but you can’t use it as an example of something that isn’t an assault rifle when the only difference is the barrel and the addition of a bipod.
And a select fire conversion of a semi-auto rifle in an interminable cartridge is an assault rifle without question. Your analogies suck

>>63996110
If a firearms is
>select fire
>intermediate caliber
>detachable box magazines
Then it will be an assault rifle, show me the weapons that hits those three areas and isn't one.
>If the object does not fit those criteria, it could still be a assault rifle
So show me an example, you can't because there aren't any rifles like that, and don't try and evade me with 'doctrinal the M14 is an assault rifle' or some other shit because its not
>in an intermediate cartridge
>>63996122
No ones said anything about it being full auto, merely
>select fire
You can select semi auto and 3 round burst

>>63996089
Lol you can't even make a good analogy

>>63996169
>carbines have no requirement to having or not having select fire capabilities
What the fuck are you on about. A carbine is a just a shorter/smaller rifle, if wants to fit the definition of an assault rifle it still needs to fit
>box magazine's
>select fire
>intermediate caliber
The M4 carbine has all three, it's an assault rifle.

>>63974623 (OP)
>intermediate cartridge
>full auto
>full size rifle
Yeah.

>>63996234
The HK36 is an assault rifle yes, used as a light support weapon, you see the same thing with the L86.
Despite being uses in the support role, its classified as an assault rifle because it fills all three criteria.

>>63996728
This is also an assault rifle, just because its a carbine it doesn't magically change

>>63996571
Dionysus, is that you?

>Intermediate cartridge
>Full auto
>magazine fed

>>63996837
Not select fire, doesn't count.

>>63996837
I already told you full auto doesn't matter, bringing able to select fire does.

>>63996837
>there are machine guns chambered in intermediate cartridges that can accept magazines in emergency situations where ammo is low
>that is why a select fire conversion of a semi-auto rifle is NOT an assault rifle
This retarded viewpoint is getting really old. It doesn't matter if you can write a 3 paragraph sentence proving how right you are you're simply clueless

>>63998383
>>63998311
The M249 has a time-dependent selective fire trigger, just as the AUG has a pressure-dependent selective fire trigger.
>>63996737
Just in case you're not "trolling", the G36 is not the HK36.

>>63996234
> The HK36 is a machinegun.

>>63998668
> Just in case you're not "trolling", the G36 is not the HK36.
ok
so you were actually refering to some weird obscure experimental weapon
fair enough but it still not a machine gun

> The HK36 was an experimental assault rifle introduced by Heckler & Koch in the early 1970s.
> Low bullet weight and the straight-line layout of the rifle reduced recoil, while the high velocity of the round gave it an almost flat trajectory out to 300 metres (330 yd), which was also the limit of its effective range. Beyond that point, the bullet lost velocity very quickly.

>>63998668
>time-dependent selective fire trigger
Any only full auto would fit then if you hacmve skill/practice

>>63996837
Shouldn't the mag fed option actually function?

>>63996571
>Intermediate
Downsizing .30-06 case by 12mm doesn't count.

>>63998668
Doesn't matter you're not onto anything

>>63996728
You’re not disagreeing with me or refuting my point, retard.

>>63996773
Dionysus was the god of booze and theaters. You’re thinking Diogenes who was an ancient shitposter.

>>63998900
Because you don't have a point.

>>63996169
> but it was a very common front line weapon in the Pacific theater
was it?
(no, a marine carrying one does not constitute as proof)

>>63998935
like genuenly interested
maybe they realized that the Pacific was a lot more close ranged and added it to the ToE
but have yet to find something on htis

All you have to do if provide some examples of these guys that fit the definition of an assault rifle but aren't and guns that don't fit it but are.
Should be pretty easy for you since you seem to know so much about it?

>>63998966
RPK (LMG)

>>63974831
>>63974687
Yeah guys
If it hasn't got a necked down bullet and pistol grip, it's not a real machine gun

>>63974623 (OP)
These arguments are always retarded. Every gun has its own unique characteristics. They do have enough similarities that they can be roughly grouped into different types of gun like “assault rifle”, but these groupings always fall apart when we try to retroactively apply them to guns and give them caveats. Assault rifle and PDW are both terms that didn’t exist when the M1 through M3 was made so the terms don’t really fit, but carbines had been around for forever and the military wanted a light rifle and the term for that is carbine so it was adopted as the M1 Carbine just like there is an M1 rifle, an M1 submachine gun, an M1 helmet, an M1 tank, etc. so the military classification of the rifle is “carbine” just like the classification of the M4 is a carbine and we had a "United States Magazine Carbine, Caliber .30, Model 1899" of the Krag before the military decided to use cool (and much more efficient) “M” designations.

It almost fits this or that modern category that was invented later, but not really because of caliber and size, like if the M1 carbine is an assault rifle except the caliber doesn’t really fit then the BAR is also an assault rifle and the SKS is a battle rifle. If it’s a PDW except it’s size and 18” barrel then the Henry model 1860 is the first PDW. The term intermediate caliber didn’t exist when the 30 carbine was made so despite having power similar to a pistol round it is a “rifle” round the same way 22 long rifle is a “rifle” round. If the M1 had been full auto capable as was originally planned then these would all have been called submachine guns and we wouldn’t have to have this stupid fucking argument.

>>63998985
I already addressed this with the L86 I posted above, its used in a light machine gun role but its just a modified version of the original assault rifle.

>>63999159
> its just a modified version of the original assault rifle.
yes,
but it's not the same
it has a longer barrel and a attached foldable bi-pod (and some other tweaks)

antoher example could be the Daewoo K3, yes it is belt-fed but it can also use magazines

>>63999140
>posts AI slop
opinion discarded

>>63999253
Lets put it this way, an SAW variant of an assault rifle is a machine gun in the same way a select fire version of an intermediate, magazine fed semi-auto rifle is an assault rifle
There you go hopefully that stops you bending definitions

>>63974623 (OP)
It's made of wood and therefore not as deadly or scary as metal rifles with holes in them and a shoulder thing that goes up. NOT an assault rifle.

>>63974623 (OP)
if(!) its an assault rifle
then it is a bretty crappy one since it really cant cover the distance between normal rifle and SMG

rather have it classified as a PWD because in that role its bretty good

>>63998935
If you were a mortarman or radioman or even an NCO, but not a rifleman. Eugene Sledge's friend carried one which he used to get a Jap trying to swim past their lines in the middle of the night when his .45 wasn't going to cut it.

>>63999140
But we were talking about the M2 carbine, not the M1. You could easily say this is a PDW. And the 30 carbine is ballistically similar to 9mm kurz.

>>64000347
yes, they handed it out as a PWD
same in yurop where HMG Platoons got assigned M1 Carabines instead of Garands

>>64000383
*meant 7.92 kurz, here's a "nazi carbine"

>>64000446
>>64000383
> 30 carbine is ballistically similar to 9mm kurz.
7.92 kurz has an about 150 meters longer effective range (and probably better penetration dough no sauce on that sadly)
30 carbine has less velocity and energy
30 carabine even has a round nose

It's technically the first real PDW but Wikipedia jannies don't know or care for the distinction. 90% of what you find on Wikipedia is politicized gobbledegook. Hell, the jannies there get assmad if you use BC/AD and not BCE/CE.

You would never arm a front line infantry unit with something like an M1 Carbine. They aren't really for "assaulting" unless all you had were guys with M1 Carbines. The main battle rifle at the time was the M1 Garand for a very good reason.

>>64000539
>still mad over spilled get 2 hours later
kek

>>64000550
Whoever your handler is pays you too much.

Honestly the discussion is almost moot since PDWs were never adopted after the collapse of the short war and the development of effective carbines. The US thought about using them and NATO had a whole project for it in the early 90's, but the Cold War ended. That made the project obsolete and the M4 basically filled the PDW niche in 1994. Most combat soldiers I know (Army and Marines) preferred the M4 to the M16 anyway.

>>64000558
>after the collapse of the Cold War
I hate phoneposting. Why do I do it?

>Is the M2 Carbine an assault rifle?

Depends on which definition of assault rifle you're using.

By classic military definition (originating from WWII Germany):
Yes, the M2 Carbine fits most of the criteria:

Selective fire: It can switch between semi-auto and full-auto.

Intermediate cartridge: .30 Carbine is more powerful than a pistol round but less than a full-size rifle round (though this is debatable).

Detachable magazine: Standard 15- and 30-round mags.

BUT, it's on the weaker end of what people expect from an intermediate cartridge. The .30 Carbine has:

Lower effective range and terminal ballistics than 7.92×33mm Kurz or 7.62×39mm.

Performance closer to a hot pistol round than a true intermediate rifle round.

So Wikipedia isn't totally wrong, but it's debatable. Some consider the M2 Carbine a proto-assault rifle or personal defense weapon more than a full-fledged assault rifle.

In short:
Technically? Yes.
Practically? Arguably not.
Gun autists? Still arguing.

>>64000558
Honestly the discussion is almost moot since PDWs were never adopted after the collapse of the short war and the development of effective carbines. The US thought about using them and NATO had a whole project for it in the early 90's, but the Cold War ended. That made the project obsolete and the M4 basically filled the PDW niche in 1994. Most combat soldiers I know (Army and Marines) preferred the M4 to the M16 anyway.

>>64000570
I'm glad we are in agreement

>>64000568
Funny, I thought the M2 was developed in Korea and before the AK-47 so thank you for making me Google it.

>>64000568
And that's why I prefer avoiding yes or nor as answer for that.
Saying it ticks the same boxes that the Stg 44 did while also not being used like an assault rifle by the US army is sufficent of an answer.

>>64000531
> It's technically the first real PDW
marge?

>>64000598
Even the STG is iffy since it didn't see widespread use. Most German soldiers were using bolt action rifles and that is what German infantry doctrine at the time revolved around.
>>64000622
Fair point. PDWs are more role-defined than technical.

>>64000630
> German infantry doctrine at the time revolved around.
once the weapon got approved for front-line trials they developed special tactics for the use of StGs doughbeit
iirc Volksgrenadiers even had special STG Platoons (dough I might mix that up)
1944 German inantry doctrine is vastly different to 1939

>>64000566
internet on phones was a mistake and likely destroyed the world because it allowed women and niggers to use the internet.

>>64000630
>since it didn't see widespread use
I mean sure but it at least was indented to be used like how we understand assault rifles now and it did coin the idea and they did build almost half a million.

>>64000598
Eh only if your generous and say .30 carbine is a weak rifle cartridge and not a powerful pistol one.

>>64000709
Sure that is an argument but imo that line is inherently blurry and up to subjectivity

>>64000705
Yeah its not like Germany wasn't building as many as they could and issuing them out as rapidly as they could, and all field reports of their use were 'give us more'

>>64000723
Well subjectively it is a hot pistol round and far weaker than 7.92 kurz which is the contemporary cartridge for the first 'true' assault rifle.

>>64000740
Just looking at how they were used tells you what you need to know
>m1 carbine for troops who don't need a full power rifle to carry out their primary role but need something because they will be near fighting
>STG is for frontline troops to directly engage and eliminate enemy troops and provide enough firepower to cover the MGs when they move.

>>63974623 (OP)
No its a submachine gun /thread

>>64000776
>threading your own post

>>63984322
>The replacement of steel by steel made the AK-47 possible.
>replacement
>of
>steel
>by
>steel

>>63993104
swiss autism is just autism with low tolerances.

>>63974623 (OP)
question:
lets assume I have a Sutrmgehwer that uses full power rifle cartrige but has some advanced recoil machanism to make it have as little recoil as a SMG

would it still be Assault Rifle?

>>64002924
If it uses a full power cartridge then it won't be an assault rifle, recoil doesn't factor into it

>>64003032
but thats just stupid
like imagine it has the same capabilites and is used in the same role but for some reason it isn't one beause it is too powerfull

what if intermediate rounds just wont cut it anymore once body armour becomes too powerfull?

>>64002924
Imho it would. Ergonomics play a big role. One day there will be laser assault rifles.

>>64003046
It's not stupid, it just gets categorised differently as a battle rifle.
The three simple qualifiers that make something an assault rifle have been repeated all over this thread, there's a few things that blur the lines a bit and various flavours of autism that prevents people accepting it, but that's how everyone has categorised firearms for decades.

>>64003046
It's not stupid but your take is

>>64003165
why?
A Sturmgewehr is a weapon that is supposed to combine SMG and normal Rifle
a G3 has too much recoil a MP7 too little range
but if one were to create a G3 with some kind of elaborate system that nullifies the recoil it would become exactly that

> The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges
> In this strict definition, a firearm must have at least the following characteristics to be considered an assault rifle:
> It must be capable of selective fire
> It must have an intermediate-power cartridge
> Its ammunition must be supplied from a detachable box magazine
> It must have an effective range of at least 300 metres (330 yards).
therefore the M2 carabine is NOT an assault rifle
since its effective range is less than 300 yards

>>64003185
Dammit I deleted it because I decided I couldn't be bothered to get into this again why are you responding to a dead post fgs.
It's got nothing to do with recoil I literally don't get how you can look at those 3 simple requirements and deny that they're the 3 simple requirements

>>64003188
>> The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges
>therefore the M2 carabine is NOT an assault rifle
>since its effective range is less than 300 yards
Other than you contradicting yourself you're wrong anyway

>>64003188
Dumb frog poster

You're thinking of M3, not M1/M2.

>>64003484
> how you can look at those 3 simple requirements and deny that they're the 3 simple requirements
because those 3 simple requirements were made up post factum and are relatively imprecise anyways (like when is it just a powerfull pistol round and when an intermediate?)

is a G36 with a drum magazine suddenly no longer an Assault rifle?

>>64003495
> The M1 carbine has a maximum effective range of 300 yards (270 m). However, bullet drop is significant past 200 yards (180 m). Therefore, the M1 has a practical effective range of about 200 yd (180 m).
i accept your apology

>>64003486
> picrel
uh oh
babbies first time using wikipedia?

maybe take a look at the footnotes of what you are quoting the next time

>>64003484
The three requirements are dumbed down criteria by the US army made for people like you. You don't have to conform to them, you know?

>>64003564
> inb4
> well it says 300 m so it was effective up to 300 m
anon
when was the last time you heard of any US Weapon using meters instead of yards?

>>64003521
>because those 3 simple requirements were made up post factum and are relatively imprecise anyways
Nope and nope
>is a G36 with a drum magazine suddenly no longer an Assault rifle?
Are you trolling? It's a drum MAGAZINE it literally makes no difference what the capacity is

>>64003566
>you're the simpleton because you go by actual consistent classifications instead of just deciding something is something because you FEEL that it is
Ok retard

>>64003589
What's the criterium for effective range?

>>64003580
> > NO ANON, these 3 creterias are NOT negotiable in ANY WAY
> > Its ammunition MUST be supplied from a detachable BOX magazine otherwise it is NOT an assault rifle
> Are you trolling? It's a drum MAGAZINE it literally makes no difference
kek
I accept your concession

>>64003589
> consistent classification
so when does a bullet become intermediate?
give me the exact Velocity, Energy, Range

>>64003638
Are you alright in your forehead? Are you mentally slow?
>b-but what if batel ryful have low recoyl that would make it assolt ryful right???
>no that's retarded
>I don't lyke the 3 requirements I want to call whatever I want an assolt ryful
>b-but what if mag fed assolt ryfol use bigger mag DIDN'T THINK OF THAT DID YOU
>you're retarded
>starts greentexting about unavoidable facts like it's somehow at my expense
What am I thinking of course you're not and of course you are

>>64003061
Take almost as dumb as the anon you're replying to

>>64003682
> assolt ryful assolt ryful assolt ryful
uttterly mindbroken after getting BTFO

many such cases

>>64003693
Just thought that'd best replicate how stupid every post of yours has sounded
>after getting BTFO
ESL

>>64003682
>>64003697
> b-but what if mag fed assolt ryfol use bigger mag DIDN'T THINK OF THAT DID YOU
anon ...
you (and others) stated that the following 3 creteria must be met in order for a rifle to qualify as an assault rifle
> capable of selective fire
> intermediate-power cartridge
> ammunition must be supplied from a detachable box magazine

a Drum magazine is not just simply a bigger box magazine
and if the magazine does not matter
then that means your defintion is shit

>>64003705
>you said detachable BOX magazine but little did you know it's capable of feeding from BIGGER MAG
First of all retard I never said it had to be a box mag specifically that just gives you a general idea secondly drum mags are either aftermarket or used on SAW variants of assault rifle platforms so you can stop strutting around like your idiocy has actually prevailed
>then that means your defintion is shit
Nope the only thing shit is your opinion
>defintion
>creteria
ESL

The stupidity of these contrarians that want to be right about something they're objectively not is trying my patience so here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles
Literally nothing there is high calibre, the M2 carbine is on the list and .30 carbine makes several appearances. Now will you shut the fuck up about something you obviously know nothing about

>>64003738
> Nope the only thing shit is your opinion ESL ESL ESL!!
sorry for hurting your feelings

> First of all retard I never said it had to be a box mag specifically
meanwhile previously:
> I literally don't get how you can look at those 3 simple requirements and deny that they're the 3 simple requirements

>>64003767
>> I literally don't get how you can look at those 3 simple requirements and deny that they're the 3 simple requirements
Yeah point to where I said it had to be a detachable box magazine smoothbrain
>meanwhile previously:
ESL

>>64003766
> he M2 carbine is on the list
behold! Wikipedia has spoken! (picrel)

(also funni how after dozens of posts explicitly stating
> detachable box magazine
we are now down to just
> detachable magazine

>>64003798
I literally don't get how you can consistently prove to be this mentally slow.
You have absolutely no idea what you're saying but you keep clinging to this non-argument about magazines.
I guess you being told how retarded you are hurts your feefees and makes you want to double down on your retarded viewpoint even though you're doing no one any favours, not even yourself

And to prove how fragile your ego is you literally responded to a deleted post calling you an idiot because even though it wasn't worth responding to you just HAD to.
Anyway I'm off to get mint and chocolate chip ice cream, I do wonder what I'll come back to though, will it be:
1.) continued mental gymnastics about a subject you know nothing about
2.) more retarded ESL drivel
3.) more cope about how you've somehow won by embarrassing yourself
4.) more pathetic attempts at twisting my words
or 5.) more scrambling for denial over how stupid you sound

>>64003970
> *make post*
> person posts a reply to it
> *delete post*
> omg you responded to a deleted post 'BIG YIKES' how could you!
faggot

Jesus the retards still here

>>63976690
These always seemed like such a scam to me.
There's 2 models, a $1500 one and a $10,000 one, plus whatever different barrels you get with them for different calibers and what not.
The like 4 people that bought them don't want to actually critique it because expensive.
I think Paul Harrel did a video on it a few years ago and concluded that it was basically the same lethality as something like 10mm.

>>64004014
Damn, only 4 out of 5.
Anyway you replied at least 8 minutes after I deleted it so that means you either knew it was deleted and your ego was bruised enough or it had you seething for that long before you could think up a reply, which was just as retarded as your original one.
Nice going dumdum

>BIG YIKES
You don't have any right calling anyone a faggot after saying that, I think you deserve to be b&

>>64003798
> Weibel M/1932
> select fire
> intermediate rifle cartridge
> 20-round box magazine
yep, it's an assault rifle

>>64004349
> There's 2 models, a $1500 one and a $10,000 one
qrd?

>>64004014
Dude I have no idea how you can shamelessly talk like such a retard and consider it such a victory each time. The only thing you didn't predictably do is make another retarded point on why I'm wrong about assault rifles even though it's widely accepted fact.
Also did you ever consider that them being able to accept box magazines doesn't mean that's the only type of magazine they accept? No you didn't because you're an ESL retard that's just desperate to disprove me on something I know more about than you because your ego is so fragile you spend 8 minutes seething over a deleted post

>>64004546
your point being?
i already said it features an intermediate rifle cartridge

>>64004571
Nothing on there is high calibre

>>64004571
It might be considered the first assault rifle if it ever got past the experimental and concept stages

It's a rifle. A soldier carrying it assaults thing with it. Assault rifle.

>>64004807
What criteria do you apply to assault soldiers?
>box fed
>effective assault range 3 km
>assault rifle

>>64004807
>mfw the assault soldiers are bringing the assault table leg posts with them
oh shit boyos what do we do