>Shoots you
>Runs away
>Shoots you again
Seriously, how the fuck do you counter this?

>>63977300 (OP)
>charges and runs a lance through you

>>63977300 (OP)
>defensive
fortifications
>offensive
heavy cavalry

>>63977300 (OP)
>shoots back at you even harder

My question is how theyd fare against muskets

>>63977300 (OP)
By having your own missile troops to make it to dangerous to approach to fire arrows without disproportionate casualties, and possibly your own cavalry or mercenary cavalry that is trained to fight with the same tactics.

Alternately, you can try and lure them into close terrain or trick them into charging, then hammer them with heavy cavalry or polearm infantry where they can't get away.

You'll also want to set up regular supply dumps/fortifications/water sources along your line of march. Some of the worse defeats to these kinds of guys were when they trapped a larger army way out in the wild, and whittled them down.

>>63977341
Both russia and china permanently bodied the steppe nomads with gunpowder.

>>63977341
Muskets were one of the things that has consigned archer horse cavalry to the dustbin of history. Horses make big targets.

>>63977335
>heavy horse catching up to light horse

retard alert

>>63977377
guess what, heavy horses can do a quick dash better than a glorified pony carrying a horse archer

nigger

>>63977300 (OP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mounted_archery#Decline
>Horse archery was usually ineffective against massed foot archery. The foot archers or crossbowmen could outshoot horse archers and a man alone is a smaller target than a man and a horse. The Crusaders countered the Turkoman horse archery with their crossbowmen, and Genoese crossbowmen were favoured mercenaries in both Mamluk and Mongol armies. Likewise the Chinese armies consisted of massed crossbowmen to counter the nomad armies. A nomad army that wanted to engage in an archery exchange with foot archers would itself normally dismount. The typical Mongol archer shot from a sitting position when dismounted.
>Horse archers were eventually rendered obsolete by the maturity of firearm technology. In the 16th and subsequent centuries, various cavalry forces armed with firearms gradually started appearing. Because the conventional arquebus and musket were too awkward for a cavalryman to use, lighter weapons such as the carbine had to be developed, which could be effectively used from horseback, much in the same manner as the composite recurve bow presumably developed from earlier bows. 16th-century dragoons and carabiniers were heavier cavalry equipped only with firearms, but pistols coexisted with the composite bow, often used by the same rider, well into the 17th century in Eastern Europe, especially with the Russians, Kalmyks, Turks, and Cossacks. For many armies, mounted archery remained an effective tactical system in open country until the introduction of repeating firearms.

>>63977300 (OP)
Shoot back with bigger bows.

>>63977347
>he think 300lbs crossbow can compete with mongol composite recurve

>>63977377
Draft workhorses are heavy. Big warhorses are buff. Unless your archers are riding on the finest arabian breeds they're unlikely to be able to escape before being run down. Nomadic horse breeds are not that.

>>63977427
Arquebus countered nomad horse archery that is true.
But previous period was cope of settle fags. They pissed their paints at one though of going into Great Eurasian Steppe occupied by Nomads and could only shiver in fear hiding inside their fortresess, raped by nomads raids over and over.

>>63977434
They literally did historically time and time again. You've been lied to by youtube historians testing crude steel mockups that at best kind of resemble a hunting crossbow a bit to the false conclusion that crossbows are all obese, ineffective and weak.

>>63977452
There's nothing valuable in the steppe and horse nomads were raped in Europe so hard they settled in and turned Christian.

>>63977341
Am I crazy or are there like 4-5 models of crossbow here

>>63977463
you're not, there's the doubler belt, cranequin, guat's foot, windlass and some plain crossbow in there, presumably implied to be also belt spanned

i guess the author wanted to go over all the spanning methods

>>63977452
Damn, that explains why the mongols conquered all the way to france. Wait a minute...

>>63977444
>Unless your archers are riding on the finest arabian breeds they're unlikely to be able to escape before being run dow ... ACK!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

>>63977475
>posts an example where archers weren't escaping but just baiting horsemen to be attacked by their own heavy cav
cool

meanwhile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechfeld?useskin=vector
ACK

>>63977457
>There's nothing valuable in the steppe
Tell this to Russian Empire.


>crossbows are all obese, ineffective and weak
hand spanned crossbow from that pic? >>63977347 yes it is. Its literally cope toy of nations who cant into real archery.

>>63977484
>successful fake retreat is not a escape
Strategic genius here.

>>63977493
>hand spanned crossbow from that pic?
if you look closely they are back spanned while sitting down, not hand spanned.
>yes it is. Its literally cope toy of nations who cant into real archery.
how come the toys wrecked real archers so badly then?

>>63977498
escape implies they got away from pursuit rather than the pursuers getting intercepted by your other troops.

just like you can't win a 100m race if you shoot all other runners in the foot halfway.

difficult concept for you to grasp, i know.

>*blocks your path*

>>63977457
>nomads were raped in Europe so hard they settled in and turned Christian.
...you mean they won and colonized the land?

>>63977523
It's so pretty, is it based on any existing castle?

>>63977474
>Ögedei Khan
>Died 11 December 1241
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire
>Post-Ögedei power struggles (1241–1251)
Essentially mongol Empire fall into civil war after Ögedei Khan death, they were more busy killing each other than conquer new lands. And never came back to unity.

Nevertheless despite mongol empire civil war all neighbors who suffered from their raids and tributes weren't able to push back and eradicate Khanates. They suffered until invention of gunpowder and arguebuse.

>>63977533
Are you completely historically illiterate?

>>63977539
Notice how the land they conquered in europe is miniscule.
>buh owr dear leader died
What a shit system you had then. You didn't take europe then your shit blew up. Very cool. At least you dunked on chinks I guess.

>>63977523
They learned how to build trebuchets from the muslims.

>>63977504
>if you look closely they are back spanned while sitting down, not hand spanned.
That is called hand spanned if you grab string by hands.

>>63977549
They couldn't even take the few primitive stone fortifications of Hungary.

>>63977539
They really were pathetic.

>>63977523
*starves you*

>>63977335
>..ACK

>>63977556
Eh, they still got something like 300 years of rule, before they got dabbed on by the gun (and, to a lesser extent, the rocket).

>>63977552
You're trying to insinuate that they weren't powerful by calling them hand spanned here, which is wrong.

>>63977536
Conisbrough castle

>>63977558
Genius strategy, I see how the conquered most of europe with it. Hold on just a second...

>>63977300 (OP)
>runs away
Making them fundamentally useless at taking or holding ground

>>63977548
>Notice how the land they conquered in europe is miniscule.
Notice they didn't put Russian lands to permanent occupation either. Because Nomads weren't interested in forest lands. They retreated into their comfort zone steppes.

>buh owr dear leader died
>What a shit system you had then.
As Miraculous Leaded Empire Mongol Empire actually demonstrated more resistance than usual. Its existed as unity after Genghis Khan death for one more generation when his son Ögedei Khan ruled. Alexander teh Great Empire for example immediately collapsed as unity after his death.

>>63977536
Did you try reverse image searching you lazy slut?

>>63977559
>..ACK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stary_S%C4%85cz?useskin=vector

>>63977569
you fucker! >>63977595
Stop spoonfeeding lazy cunts, you're making it worse

>>63977554
But they could take the hyperborean fortifications of Korea, the "castles stop mongols" meme is especially stupid

>>63977563
These are lowest poundage crossbows and they are massively behind in terms of energy, velocity and range behind composite recurve bows.

>>63977595
>All that effort just to seethe.

>>63977569
Thanks. Are the buttresses/reinforcements like that common on British castles?

>>63977613
look it up yourself retard

>>63977606
>These are lowest poundage crossbows
Poundage isn't everything. If it was any crossbow would leave any bow in the dust.
>and they are massively behind in terms of energy, velocity and range behind composite recurve bows.
There isn't a single historical study that examined or tested such crossbows in detail, as there's no surviving examples from that time. Bold claim with nothing to offer for it.

>>63977605
>hyperborean fortifications of Korea
The bronze age-tier glorified stone-faced dirt mounds? Implessive.
>he "castles stop mongols" meme is especially stupid
Only half as stupid as the "mongol didn't care about castles" meme when they got cucked by the few castles that were primitive compared to the rest of Europe.

>>63977434
>he thinks an armor piercing crossbow bolt turning a horse's organs into paté is no big deal

>>63977300 (OP)
>Horse archers are weak against fortresses
>Make mobile fortress
Big shields with lots of archers basically what ancient persians used. They kept horseniggers from taking their empire for centuries. Weak against greek heavy infantry though so they got conquered by alexander.

>>63977558
>lay siege to castle
>invasion grinds to a halt, stalled by up to a year or more depending on the amount of food they have stored
>you have to keep your own dudes paid and fed through all this time; even if you depend on plunder for that, they're going to quickly run out of places to plunder from if they're not on the move
>meanwhile, all the other castles in the area are launching raids against your camps and supplies
>even if you win, you then have to repeat with the next one (and the one after that, and the one after that...)
but don't take my word for it: just ask Sun Tzu:
>When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.
>Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain.
>Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
>The rule is, not to besiege walled cities if it can possibly be avoided. The preparation of mantlets, movable shelters, and various implements of war, will take up three whole months; and the piling up of mounds over against the walls will take three months more.
>The general, unable to control his irritation, will launch his men to the assault like swarming ants, with the result that one-third of his men are slain, while the town still remains untaken. Such are the disastrous effects of a siege.

>>63977622
>Poundage isn't everything.
Yeah there are also draw length, draw strength change over span, mechanical efficiency, arrow velocity. In all these factors euro style crossbow fail hard behind composite recurve bow.

Note how it didn't work against the Romans that well. Well commanded Romans destroyed pretty much anyone at impossible odds and they had an answer for everything.

But it illustrates well how backwards the middle age Europeans were that the mongols were able to fuck them up so totally. Technologically the Mongols didn't have anything their ancestors hadn't tried throwing at the Roman legions a thousand years before

>>63977644
>In all these factors euro style crossbow fail hard behind composite recurve bow.
Seems like you have trouble reading. There isn't a single historical study that examined or tested such crossbows in detail, as there's no surviving examples from that time. Bold claim with nothing to offer for it.

>>63977649
Mongols invaded Hungary and did some raiding in Poland. Hardly the card carrying members of medieval Europe.

>>63977649
>mongols were able to fuck them up so totally
cockblocked by tiny hungarian castles

>>63977474
>Damn, that explains why the mongols conquered all the way to france.
The Huns made it all the way to Belgium

>>63977666
then how come there arent any mongolians in belgium today?

>>63977300 (OP)
>live in a jungle (Vietnam)
>live on an island (Japan)
>live in a desert with no pastures (Mameluks)
>build a wall (China)
>cuck out until you have guns (Russia)

>But all these counters you suggest don't work
Then how come horse archer cultures didn't conquer the entire world?

>But all these nuke counters you suggest don't work
Then how come the USA didn't conquer the entire world?

>>63977475
Very impressive!
>look inside
>not a single guest knight died
>failed to conquer, or even subjugate either Hungary(at this point still not westernized) or Poland (dozens of decentralized duchies, not a single one snatched away)
>Supposedly counters heavy cavalry
>In response to Mongols both Poland and Hungary go ALL IN on heavy cavalry, crossbows, and in case of Hungary, castles too.
Really makes me think.

>>63977717
There was a teeny tiny difference in political culture between the US and the mongols.
Also the soviets got nukes literally 4 years later, which is exactly what happens when a weapon has no counter - you need to get some of them of your own. Meanwhile most of the world didn't get horse archers in response.

>>63977300 (OP)
Leave our dummies back here as targets;
send our smart guys over to where they're running to and shoot them when they get there?

>NO WE DIDN'T GET OWNED! WE DIDN'T GET OWNED!

t. white guy with northern european heritage

>>63977769
>t. white guy with northern european heritage
Please gib more.
>t. eastoid

>>63977769
Tell me again, how much territory do the mongols control in 2025 and how much do white europeans control?

>>63977769
>NO WE DIDN'T GET OWNED! WE DIDN'T GET OWNED!
Average steppenigger after discovering the Europeans found out about gunpowder and weren't just making fireworks out of it.

>>63977300 (OP)
Plant trees and spend all your money building forts without even having big fortunes inside them.
The Chinese had trees and forts, but had so much money inside each fort that it was still worth it for the Mongols to break in.
The Europeans were too poor to be worth invading for how hard the terrain was, comparatively.

>>63977340
>foz tail stuck.in ass
Furries ain't nothin' new, boys.

>>63977474
Germany was literally too poor to be worth invading.

Blue Cobra

>>63977826
Poorer than Hungary or Rus?

>>63977559
>steppeniggers defeat steppeniggers in battle
It reminds me about those discussions about German military record being of.... questionable quality, and arguments like to come down to
>Germans are great at warfare, just look at seven years war!

>>63977701
They did until they decided they liked killing each other more than everyone else.
They conquered mountainous terrain, fortress societies, desert societies, forest societies, etc.
Their limits were basically just how far the unified Mongol Empire got before it broke apart into warring factions.
The lucky parties for this were the Vietnamese, Mamluks, and Hungarians.

>>63977493
>Tell this to Russian Empire.
Mammoth meat was gone long ago and Siagas and musk ox are near gone. The tundra is thawing and Russia is doomed. Count them down for the count in 10 yrs or less.

>>63977846
Bela IV wasn't Cuman

>>63977493
My guy, the Mongols lost Russia because it was uneconomical to exploit and full of Russians

>>63977846
Romans got rekt by Parthian Horse archers and the Huns and had to adopt horse archer units themselves

>>63977595
>try reverse image searching
Teach me this now. Show me how. I want to know it. Just show it.

>>63977666
>The Huns made it all the way to Belgium
"Hun" is short for Hun-garian. Belgium is like only an hour drive away, no big deal.

>>63977300 (OP)
Coltraps and ambushes on logistical lines

>>63977826
Tell that to the Romans.

>>63977300 (OP)
Horse cunts fuck off!

>>63977717
Mongols requested entire Europe to bend the knee to them
>t. Giovanni da Pian del Carpine and Benedict of Poland
So the whole argument
>they totally could conquer Europe, they just decided not too (out of goodness of their heart obviously)
is retarded, because no, they couldn't, and yes, they tried. Mongols struggled with heavy cavalry, crossbows, and stone fortifications, they couldn't subjugate Poland (terrain flat as pancake, literally no stone deposits for stone castles), they would fail miserably in France (literally dozens of thousands castles/towers).

>>63977865
Romans were more fucked by the logistics and morale issues than horse archers in Carrhae and withstood them pretty well. They'd also return and fuck Parthians over several times, sacking their capital in the process.

>>63977882
What is why they stopped after one loss, when in other places they fought through many.

>>63977852
Hungarian army pre Mongol invasion was steppenigger army. Nationality or religion of ruler literally doesn't matter, that's not a video game.

>>63977884
Their massive success in China and the Middle East makes it clear that rough terrain and fortresses weren't great limitations on Mongol conquests.
The reason that Europe didn't get conquered is that the Mongol Empire blew up from the inside right at the time they finally reached Europe proper, and future raids were only sponsored by the poor Golden Horde rump state.

>>63977911
Or maybe chinks and arabs just sucked at war compared to Euros, exactly like they did all the other centuries before and after.

>>63977808
>how much territory do the mongols control in 2025

how much territory does rome control?

>>63977906
Read a book sometime and you'll realize Hungary wasn't just Cumans. Life isn't a videogame indeed, you played too much Kingdom Come.

>>63977916
The Arabs that beat the Euro's asses?

>>63977916
Didn't euros lose to these same arabs at the time?

>>63977883
>duck drinking from the grail
what did they mean by this

>>63977929
Arabs had to wait until a succession crisis to oust Euros sitting right on their doorstep.

>>63977883
>just be yourself they said

>>63977883
The pope hates this one weird trick...

>>63977911
>Their massive success in China and the Middle East makes it clear
Their massive failure in Poland and Hungary makes it clear that those were great limiations on Mongol conquests
>No those were not real Mongols
Classic.

>Mehmet Ozman over here shilling for his great great great great great great great grandfather who raped an Arab woman

>>63977953
Conquest of Poland and Hungary didn't matter anyway.

>>63977335
Nice supply line you got there. Be a sham if it got stretched too far.. .

>>63977927
>chest beating about invading the Balkans
Is that something worth celebrating? If anything you were doing Europe a favor.

>>63977940
>Arabs had to wait until a succession crisis to oust Euros sitting right on their doorstep.

The Byzantines outnumbered the Arabs in most of their battles, and the Europeans were prepared during the Crusades.

>>63977987
>the Europeans were prepared during the Crusades
The Average Crusade was a mess

>>63977982
Also spain..

>>63977971
This didn't happen with mongols, every. Their supply line is to the nearest castle.

What did happen is getting baited into a dirorderly charge, getting isolated, surrounded and mauled due to ineffective and incoherent command.

>>63977953
>massive failure
You mean two successful raids that were directly followed by a massive succession crisis that ripped the Empire apart from the inside out?
By 1260, it went from the Mongol Empire to just the Golden Horde, by 1280, the Golden Horde was run by the legendarily incompetent Talabuga.

>>63977919
And I'm not talking about them being Cumans retard, I'm talking about Hungarian army not being westernized at this point. Hungarian warfare was more akin to invading Mongols, not to French or German knights, hence
>Mongols defeated Hungarians at that one battle, euroknights btfo
argument is void, because Hungarians in response to Mongol invasion started to westernize their army rapidly, not the opposite.

In other words contemporary Poles and Hungarians literally witnessed armies of Mongols themselves, and what they did was not to copy Mongol tactics, weaponry, style of warfare, but to double down (Poland), or modernize in style of west (Hungary).

>>63977982
>balkans
>anatolia
>spain
>levant
>egypt
Yeah.

>>63978006
>two successful raids
One successful raid and one complete failure at subjugation.

>>63977968
Yeah, it was gesture of goodwill, feint, tactical retreat (they will come back any second now, Poles and Hungarians be afraid)

>>63978006
>Talabuga
Well thats just a dumb name and he was probably picked on as a kid.

>>63977300 (OP)

>runs in zig zags

>>63978013
>ohh no you see we conquered a bunch of sand too

>>63978009
You're talking about Cumans retard

>>63978006
>raids
Those were wars of conquest and subjugation, failing to achieve goals and calling it a raid is a mongocope.

romaboos pretty silent

>>63978035
You are still missing a point, you fool.

>>63978029
>SERPENTINE!
>SERPENTINE!
So classic. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UPXOsaMbvU&pp=0gcJCfwAo7VqN5tD

>>63978035
>Hungarian knight
>1250-1275
>post Mongol invasions
Self own

>Hungary founded in the year 1000 by a guy called Stephen
>Somehow its some weird steppe nation to historylets because some flavor of the month videogame talks about some tribals from Hungary that were being aggressively Christianized.

>>63978095
>Some contrarian retard learned about some tribe from Hungary from a videogame and now pretends to know shit.
Check about who og Hungarians were you massive historylet.
And Jesus fucking Christ, that game, of which I haven't got to play yet (but plan to), takes action in 15 fucking century, almost 2 centuries after Mongol invasions. You simply can't get about the idea, that 1240 and 1420 were two different periods, can you.

>>63978119
Enough of your childish /int/slop understandings of nations. You probably didn't even know Hungary had Christians in it...

>>63978140
Good job on not complaining about kcd for the third time. I'm proud of you.

>>63978148
You simply can't understand that Hungary was Christian at 1000 AD...

>>63978140
>be Vajk the Hungarian
>get baptized
>Your new name is Stephen
>Get on a horse
>Bow falls out of hand
>What the hell
>Bishop explains to you, that since you are Christian now, your military unit type changes to Western European
>All Hungarians overnight lose an ability to ride a horse overnight
And this fucking imbecile shrieks about me playing too much KCD

>>63978037
>leave behind no garrisons nor designate any governors despite destroying all forces that could oppose you
They were raids, you could have called them scouting raids that were setting up for a proper conquest in the near future, but they weren't meant to take over the nations. The Mongols didn't have enough men for that on the expedition.
The follow up conquest was prevented by the death of the Great Khan back home.

>>63978161
>Still referencing his meme game to justify his retarded position.
Hey dumbass, it wasn't just Stephen the Christian in Hungary...

>>63978161
>>Bow falls out of hand
>>What the hell
>>Bishop explains to you, that since you are Christian now, your military unit type changes to Western European
based desu. add an instantly gained ability to drink milk and invent things

>>63978162
>leave behind no garrisons nor designate any governors despite destroying all forces that could oppose you
You are so close to getting this, come on, give it another thought.

/int/ and /v/ has been a disaster for discourse about European history.

>>63977937
The fearsome Quackaholics with beating sticks

>>63978175
What the fuck are you talking about now.

>>63978162
>leave behind no garrisons nor designate any governors
they didn't do either of these things in other places they did conquer.
>They were raids, you could have called them scouting raids that were setting up for a proper conquest in the near future
Yep, they were chasing after hungarian king just for fun. No conquest here.

>>63978189
Just fuck off back to whatever shithole board you call home that flanderizes countries please, you're babbling nonsense.

>>63978196
You bring anachronistic(15th century Bohemia) game to a discussion about Mongols (13th century Hungary), then get mad when I point it out, and now cry about how IT WAS ME who brought this argument out? Get fucked.

>>63978196
what would a crying hungarian wojak look like?

>>63977341
why dont they make a modern version of this

>>63978216
Is he even Hungarian? All what I did was to indirectly praise medieval Hungarians by making an argument how Mongols failed in Europe, therefore Hungarians successfully defended themselves. Dude either is disillusioned ponyfucker, or there is quite a misunderstanding.

>>63978233
The shield would be too heavy to deflect rifle bullets. You'd need a guy with a full body exoskeleton to carry it.

>>63978233
bullets are harder to stop than arrows

instead you get a foxhole

>>63978263
just fill it with sand

>>63978344
congrats, you invented sandbags

>>63978356
Before sandbags, they had wickerwork gabions.

So this is really just another shit gamer thread.

>>63978389
mate, do you understand what bullets do? could you not suggest defending against those with a fucking basket?

>>63978413
>fucking basket
You do realize that dirt is "the best damn bullet stop in the world", right?

>>63978413
That basket is filled with rocks and/or earth, anon.

>>63978505
Maybe he was just being retarded on purpose and doesn'tknow that West Point and the Army Corps of Engineers was created just for the purpose of wickerman weaving therapy?

>>63977554
The invasion where this happened was all kinds of stupid. They ran out of food before they started and the invasion was in winter.

>>63977649
The Huns fucked up the Romans, both of them. The Roman advantage was political. All it took was Attila dying and the Hunnic confederacy broke up.

>>63977300 (OP)
shooting back dumbfuck

>>63977300 (OP)
By not being there. Wtf. Nigga. Next question.

>>63977300 (OP)
>gets buckbroken by fucking Hungarians of all people
>leaves Europe in shame
The mongols were paper tigers.

>>63977377
Have you ever seen a steppe pony? They are miniature horse size damn near.

>>63978814
>mongols were paper tigers.
No. They dominated the slopehead pleasantries really good. All asians are just h. Erectus bottlenecked Sapians.

>>63977533
Dont read about the cum men

>>63977556
Lets see your empire anon

>>63977867
Nope gonna have to read the internet instruction manual for that one bub

>>63977918
Pretty sure the Pope in Rome has sway over millions across the globe.

>>63978895
Reading is dumb.

>>63978646
And it helps Attila and his family were foederati for years around pannania and the balkans. Kinda like when the muzzies broke containment after their years of service to the greeks

>>63977682
Theyre called germans

>>63977837
Yes. Rus had a fuckload of money from byzantine/arab slave trading and amber

>>63978947
Uh huh, totally.

>>63977559
poland getting raped is nothing new to them

>>63978966
I bet you didnt even know about anglo saxon crimean kimgdom smfh

>>63977377
Steppe ponies aren’t fast. They’re hardy and easy to keep. They’d get caught by a charger, destrier, courser, or even a rouncey easily. Only a draft horse would have trouble.

>>63978974
How is it different from Norman kingdom of Sicily? What does it have to do with the retarded idea that some slav niggers farming dirt and blowing cumans are richer than the most productive places in the world at the time because they are several hundred miles closer to the Byzantines?

>>63977682
There are to this day people of Mongolian, Finnish, Frankish and Gothic descent in Belgium, Germany and France. As a matter of fact those of us who are of Celtic origin (gingers or dark blond hair and green eyes) are a minority.

>>63977300 (OP)
He spams this thread on multiple boards

>>63977434
Yes they quite literally did, retard

>>63977300 (OP)
>Ctrl+F "F1-F3"
>0 results
Shameful display

>>63977300 (OP)
Glorious thread. Look at all the retarded comments you got. Not a single person here realizes that German Blitzkrieg tactics were based on Mongol warfare. Not a single person here realizes that drone innovations opens this line of strategic thought again.

You magnificent bastard.

>>63978990
Why do you think the became orthodox retard?

>>63977539
>could have
>may have
Didn't, they failed to beat minor westernised powers, collapsed because they were poorly constructed states and never got another attempt
Everything else is cope, they lost and collapsed

>>63977559
Kek Wikipedia retards are hilarious, just look at the disparity on the sources you stupid nigger
Did the Mongols take few losses or many?
Did the Christians have 80000 men and outnumber their enemy (obviously not) or Did they have 25000 and were outnumbered?
Did you even look at what you posted?

>>63977452
s. A Nomad

>>63977649
Nigger some of the Romans biggest defeats from both the peak of their power and from the end of the (western) empire were from steppe bow toting horse fuckers
It amazes me how confident you idiots can be in blatantly being wrong

>>63977876
>only an hour drive away
more like 15 hours capitol to capitol without stops
I've done it in a day but I was going 170 for most of the way burning trough Germany

>>63977826
>the Holy roman empire
>the most powerful and wealthy state(s) in Europe for basically the whole middle ages
>and much of the modern era
>too poor
Fucking hell you niggers should be castrated, this thread like all /his/ threads on /k/ is absolute AIDs, filled with pondlife and thirdies

>>63979190
NTA but
>
>
>

>>63979171
the romans sacked the capitol of the self same steppe bow toting horse fuckers, twice

*blocks you're path*

>>63979211
And that means they didn't suffer repeated humiliating losses?
>haha I stabbed you back a couple times
Doesn't mean a lot when you're house is on fire, you're wife has been raped and you're bleeding to death

>>63979200
Fuck off Voltaire you stupid French nigger

>>63979211
Ngl anon I didn't even read your post, assumed you were talking about the huns and now I know I'm a stupid nigger
Sorry, I will commit sodoku

>>63979190
France was far more wealthy the entire time.
France was the most populated part of Europe up until Britain's industrial revolution, and it wasn't even close.

>>63979271
No it wasn't, that's just a fucking stupid claim to make anon
Once France had actually centralised then yes you could argue it was the more powerful state, and as we pass through the modern era it undoubtedly is
But if we consider the states of the HRE under the emperor as one (which I understand is fair not to) they dwarf France for basically the entirety of the medieval era, and do so by every single metric

>>63979060
Because they jobbed to Byzantines at every step? How would this imply wealth in any way you absolute troglodyte nigger?

>>63979271
In terms of wealth Italians had it and it wasn't even close. They had so much monopolies and access to imported goods, so much exclusive manufacture it's baffling.

>>63979321
I believe France was more productive and had more extensive technology pre 100 years' war. After that it kind of shriveled up and Germans got ahead until they themselves got fucking razed by the 30 years war.

>>63977816
chink cope

"chinese" fortifications just werent good. They were giant dirt walls with a layer of bricks on one side. You dont have to be a genious to break trough those. European ones were layered and made out of mason work. Nearly every village had a castle in walking distance and every castle had a multitude of sourrounding ones just around the corner. In germany you have an area with three castles in shooting distance of each other while you have a few more in viewing distance. You dont have that in china.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drei_Gleichen#Schlossleite

>>63977911
and yet they failed on their second try in hungary which was build up from a completly destroyed countrysite

>>63979368
Nah at the turn of the millenia before France starting aping English centralisation efforts and the HRE actually had a strong chain of emperors I'd put then ahead there too
The tail end of the High medieval I could see it swinging to France, and yeah end of medieval/early modern definitely HRE again
Then really it's a toss up until France becomes more and more undisputed, eclipsing both HRE and Spain
That is until Savoy and Malbrough show them what is what

>>63979393
I was talking about productivity/technology, not military or political might here. Basically GDP per capita, plus exclusive or outstanding industries and trades. France was ahead in that since Charlemagne's reign and carolingian rennaisance.

>>63979064
they had another attempt at hungary which people seem to just ignore. But hungary copied central and western european technology and the mongols got btfout

>>63979049

>>63977867
You see the arrow next to posts? You can click on it.

>>63979049

>>63977300 (OP)
give the infantry firearms

>>63979321
This is some delusional EU4 shit.
France had a higher population than Germany, that is objective.
France had more economic activity than Germany, that is objective.
This isn't relatively speaking regarding centralization, France was by far wealthier.
>>63979361
Too low of population, compared to France.

>>63979678
France did not have a larger population than the HRE at the turn of the millenia, that is objective
Care to prove that France was more wealthy than the HRE states at the same period?
Yes the fact that France was highly decentralised at the time is important, as it is a mark often given against the HRE but not considered for other European medieval states near as much
Nigger you're the one bringing parashit into this, maybe you should fuck back off to the map painting autism

>>63979190
>the most powerful and wealthy state(s) in Europe for basically the whole middle ages and much of the modern era
>Germany is rich now, therefore it was retroactively rich.
France dwarfed >H>R>E for it's entire existence
>most powerful
it was barely functional as an organization

Not like I agree with ponyfucker, HRE wasn't too poor to be raided, that's absolutely retarded. But it wasn't always the best place to live, otherwise millions of Germans wouldn't emigrate out of it. Not to speak about thirty years war and it's aftermath, it took about century for German states to recover, and it was quite a poor place meanwhile, relatively speaking. But that's early modern era - centuries away out of Mongol's time frame

>>63977300 (OP)
By having other people shoot them and run away. Either that or guns. if you don't have guns or your own horse archers, you get fucked 90% of the time minimum.

The cases of settled people actually decisively defeating steppe nomads are few and far between, and generally require some form of combined arms warfare, and an outstanding military leader. Unless you're Alexander, don't count on it.

>>63977427
>massed archers
>countering light cavalry
Uh, pretty sure that's just creating a great target for the horse archers to put away their bows and route your force with a charge.

>>63977937
Jan Hus proposed, among other things that got him burned at the stake, that drinking sacramental wine during a mass should not be limited to the clergy.

>why goose
Hus = Goose

>>63979706
>France did not have a larger population than the HRE at the turn of the millenia, that is objective
not him, but it did. It's bonkers how populous France was in medieval Era, they had ~15million people in early 13th century.

>>63979707
>strawman argument out of nowhere
Not a good start, quote me where I even mentioned modern Germany, or the actual name Germany for that matter
>France dwarfed >H>R>E for it's entire existence
That isn't correct though
Yes France eclipsed HRE, I never said it didn't, in fact I outright said it did, so I'm not sure what you're bringing the 30 years war up for (as that era was more important for France eclipsing Spain, the real European power of the era)

>>63979728
>at the turn of the millenia
>13th century
No it didn't
I said France eclipsed it later in the high middle ages, but I am talking about the turn of the millenia, not the 13th century

>>63979706
>https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/pop-in-eur.asp
France had 1.5-2x the population of Germany the entire period.
>https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/releases/maddison-database-2010
Maddison project data also puts France well ahead of Germany throughout the middle ages.
Germany was a poor shithole with zero culture or relevancy compared to France until the 1800s.

>>63979739
France population didn't collapse anywhere in 11th or 12th century, France was more populous in both 1000s, and 1200s.

>>63979743
Nigger did you even read your links?
What you posted is literally
>wot I reckon
Anyway, the HRE (Holy Roman Empire) which is more than 'germany' at the turn of the millenia undoubtedly eclipsed France in both population, wealth and prestige, why are you so personally invested in that not being true?
Let me guess, you're French?

>>63979743
>Germany was a poor shithole with zero culture or relevancy compared to France until the 1800s.
French delusions. Germany had a slump after the 30 years war (when france genocided a huge part of it), that's all.

>>63977300 (OP)
>The answer?
>Is a gun.
>And if that don't work?
>Use more gun.

>>63979749
>France was more populace than Germany, the lowlands, northern Italy and more by the turn of the millenia
Cool, source it then

>>63979743
>Germany was a poor shithole with zero culture or relevancy compared to France until the 1800s
If you made arguments without being a seething faggot people might actually believe your disingenuous horseshit

>>63979754
Yeah, historians are just making stuff up because they're all agents of the French government, right?
These are reasonable estimates that are widely checked and have survived criticism without much problem.
Germany is a commonly used shorthand for the HRE, given that for most of its history the Italian provinces were barely controlled, even if they were within the borders of the Empire. The secessions in the 1400s were just formalities, when they'd been basically out of the Emperor's reach for a very long time before that.

France was more powerful and wealthier almost from the exact moment of the Carolingian split onwards, until it experienced demographic stagnation after Napoleon.
I have no ethic ties to either nation.
>>63979762
It was far behind long before that point.

>>63979776
The only people seething are germanophiles that are coping hard with lionizing a nation that was irrelevant in the time period discussed.

>>63979734
>quote me where I even mentioned modern Germany, or the actual name Germany for that matter
>and much of the modern era
>modern era
And yeah don't even try to pretend that you didn't thought about Germany when speaking about modern era.
>what you're bringing the 30 years war up
because it proves a point. Modern Germany is a powerhouse, but that wasn't always the case. Eastern Germany was depopulated after they conquered local slavs, and it quite literally never fully recovered after that(population wise). It was quite a poor place. Some states would fare better, but in most of time period they would be outshined by France or Italian states.

>>63977300 (OP)
Two solutions:
1. Traps/ambushes
2. Stay mobile.

>>63979779
Holy fucking shit pull your head out your ass faggot
They're making estimates because it's all they've got, but just because someone has made an educated guess doesn't mean they're even half right you thick cunt
>ackchually Germany is referring to the whole HRE
You should ackchually Kill yourself for making such a retarded statement that is blatantly untrue and you are ignoring many more states than the Northern Italians (one of which would humiliate France regardless of its supposed dominance)
I suggest you read your own source, and for the sake of impartiality check the many others including those directly contradictory to the ones you've posted

>>63979790
The modern era is everything post medieval fucking idiot, it literally begins in the 15th century, so no don't suppose what I thought because I continued to use the correct terminology, get fucked

>>63979798
What are you relying on here, other than vibes?
If you're so critical of others, what is your data?

>>63979678
>Too low of population, compared to France.
All French consumed spices went through Italy. That's how fucking rich and established they were.

>>63979802
>w-why do you bring early modern era into discussion
>acthually15th century is modern period
You can't be serious.

>>63979803
Nigger look at your own figures
Look at a map of Europe circa 1000AD

>>63979827
We already went over your disputes with my sources, I want to see what sources you are relying on.

>>63979834
Madison, much like your
>Josiah Russell
And near anyone else, which is estimated guesswork like I've been saying

>>63979798
The HRE was poor as fuck and a fucking backwater until the norse and the balt got christianized (opening new trade and security on their border). Also Med was where trade happened until america was discovered. The HRE had the fucking alp mountain anon.
>They're making estimates because it's all they've got
That all we got for most of human history.

>>63979722
That's what the spearmen supporting the missile infantry are for

>>63979802
Modern begins in the very late 16th and early 17th

>>63979803
Vibes are the best if you're a giga-IQ Chad. 130 engineer types fuck off, you aren't included

>>63979890
>very late
Nah, what is it that defines the beginning of the modern era?

>>63979764
I'm here to laugh at ponyfucker's failed conquest of Europe, not to search for sources that do not exist (no pop censuses). So I will stand by my point, that HRE was definitely worth raiding, and Mongols didn't raid HRE because they already fucking jobbed at frontier states. Speaking of which, Hungary was worth raiding
>one of the biggest, if not the biggest, gold and silver producer in Europe
but again, it wasn't the raid, it was conquest, and here also comes Poland
>dozens of duchies, in that time period some joined HRE(Pomerania), some pledged allegiance to Polish king in.... Bohemia (most of Silesian states), some were snatched by Teutons, the only ones who jobbed were fucking Mongols.

>>63979905
In general, lot of people consider the modern era starting with either the fall of the second rome or the discovery of america.

>>63977300 (OP)
Historically I don't think it ever was countered. You just learned to pay a rival horsetribe to kill them or just pay them off yourselves.

>>63979916
The middle and end of the 15th century respectively then
You've also already got the rise of reformationist groups throughout before Luther and the printing press is major

>>63977300 (OP)
>fortify all entry points from the steppe
>develop similar tactics and learn from them. Use these cavalry units to perform their own raids on steppe tribes.
>raid their food supplies (i.e. buffalo, goat, horses etc.)
>divide and conquer, ally with some groupa and have them fight for you
>do not let them confederate
> NEVER do an invasion en masse yourself
> if economically feasible, bring civilization into the steppe and reduce their territory inch by inch

just do what the chinese/muslims/americans/europeans did and do it well. eventually steppebros will die out and run out of supplies while settlers populate faster.

I wonder how effective would Almogavars be against steppe forces since they where anti Calvary

Being a Mongol was like real life GTA. You rode around with your boys trying to get a 5 star wanted level. You had a horse and an eagle and a sword and a bow and you were just galloping around lopping off heads and stacking them into pyraminds that blotted out the sun for shits and giggles. You got to eat meat and cheese and milk.

>>63979381
Nonesense. Chinese city walls were thick and were never broken. In a siege they all had to be starved out or taken by storm. And their fortifications packed enough provisions to last for years. We joke about decisive Tang victories but they lasted that long even without cannibalism. Meanwhile in Europe walls were thin and a siege was considered to have lasted a very long time past 6 months. 3 months was a typical length of time to starve out most fortifications.

>>63980161
>Chinese city walls were thick and were never broken.
Now that's some chinkopium if i ever saw it.

>>63979779
>HRE, given that for most of its history the Italian provinces were barely controlled, even if they were within the borders of the Empire.
Little historical trivia about muh HRE at the turn of the millenia. Otto III borrowed 300 men at arms from Polish prince to help him stifle yet another Italian rebellion.
>t. Thietmar of Merseburg

>>63979779
>given that for most of its history the Italian provinces were barely controlled, even if they were within the borders of the Empire.
For most of history French provinces were barely controlled even if they were within the borders of the kingdom of France.

>>63980028
>being this disillusioned
I can see you are a man of tv learning.

>>63980184
You could try to find even one instance of a chinese city wall being breached instead of doing a cope post.

>>63980219
I don't care about chink history and all i need to know is they got BTFO by mongols.

Your idiotic cope about years' worth of food inside city walls or how dirt mounds are stronger than stone brickwork further prove you're delusional.

Chinks are worthless pathetic subhuman rape fodder, that's all they're good for and have always been.

>>63980298
>Chinks are worthless pathetic subhuman rape fodder, that's all they're good for and have always been.
Kinda races, bro.

>>63980184
>>63979381
Agreed, even during WW2 their walls were incredibly hard to break

>>63980374
uh i replied to the wrong people

>>63979381
>face culture exemplified

>>63977511
Kek, BODIED that freak

>>63978980
>They’d get caught by a charger, destrier, courser, or even a rouncey easily
So why didn't they irl?
The horse archers have standoff with the bows, by the time the armored cavalry catches them, the horse archers would have pulled them out of position, away from their supporting infantry, and ready to be surrounded.

Charging after them like a retard is literally what they want you to do since it allows them to defeat you in detail. It's literally the same tactic as every other missile cavalry. From the cantabrian circle to the caracole of the Thirty Years War.

>>63977434
low quality bait

>>63979361
Italians squandered so much wealth that the weight of gold moving in their transactions probably like wobbled the planet or tuned the magnetic something.
LOT o fuckin gold.

Very critical reminder that the Chinese Han, as a race, was savagely and relentlessly raped out of existence by anyone they encountered.
Modern day chinese is a muttoid race.

>Picks you
>Runs away
>Picks you again
Seriously, how the fuck do you counter this?

Who’s behind shit mongol threads?

>>63977300 (OP)
>parry this you fucking casual

>>63977911
Did you know mongols got buttfucked in Vietnam and India

>>63977357
china bodied the oirat mongols with mostly bows, while the mongols were mostly using guns. steppe nomads were early and eager gunpowder users.

>>63977300 (OP)
>fires toxic arrow at ur horse
>it slumps over
But yeah, horse archers typically lose against massed archer/xbow volleys. That was how the Chinese typically fended them off.

>>63981228
WITNESSED MORSOV

>>63977953
i mean it probably had a lot to do with mongolia being really far away more than anything else.

>>63978119
so why were the og hungarians successfully rampaging all through europe for over 100 years?

>>63977427
>no citations
also doesn't make any sense on its face. how did the outnumbered mongol horse archers defeat massed chinese crossbowmen?
crossbows in general have less range than might be expected for their poundage due to shorter power stroke. a very heavy (850 lb) crossbow tod cutler shot for distance only had a range of ~200 m. and heavy poundage crossbows were generally not shot at 45 degree angles for distance. the whole system of heavy crossbowman+pavise+assistant that the genoese used implies accurate direct fire under threat, not massed volleys at maximum range. this fits in with their origin as naval troops who ended up all over the mediterranean in relatively small ship detachments.

there is a mongol stele commemorating a marksman hitting a target at over 500 m. this was presumably an extraordinary and almost unreproducible feat, hence the stele, but it highlights the difference in range.

heavy crossbowmen could beat horse archers by leveraging their advantage: the ability to shoot very powerful bolts from a position of relative stability and safety, behind a pavise on solid ground, where they could focus and get a bead on a target. presumably that would necessitate a larger strategic/tactical context that created a closer range engagement.

>The typical Mongol archer shot from a sitting position when dismounted
????
shooting a bow of any respectable draw weight is basically impossible seated.

>>63980161
there were sieges going on for 20-40 years in europe.

>Nonesense. Chinese city walls were thick and were never broken.
How do you break a dirt hill? Europeans stopped with those kind of walls 2000 years ago as they did not stand up to european siege tactics at all. They look impressive which is a function of those kind of fortifications but compared to what europeans used its quiet dated and primitiv.

>>63981228
I did not know they had mall that sold weapons in china during that time. Truly the height of human civ.

>>63981494
no you can turn yourself into a crossbow by using your legs as well but I am not sure how that would work in a military setting

>>63977454
Medieval equipments often have much worse quality than that youtuber's crude crossbow

>>63981482
Aaaand how is that relevant to the discussion?

>>63982609
That's not true. While youtuber grade shit might have access to better materials it's usually made completely inaccurately and rendered almost useless as a wepon.

Take swords for example, despite cheap modern steel being better than the absolute highest grades that were available to best medieval smiths so many sword reproductions handle like absolute shit and are more dangerous to their user than the opponent. Literal sword-shaped crowbars that are meant to be hung on the wall rather than used. Only in the recent years did this start to improve as the sword dynamics are better understood and reproductions try to receate actual historical swords in not just looks but weight distribution, taper and so on thanks to work of people like Peter Johnsson, yet even today reproductions tend to err on the beefier and heavier side due to different expectations and demands of modern buyers while there are antiques that are unbelievably light and nimble and handle like a dream.

With crossbows it's much worse since there's been basically no progress towards historical accuracy at all and it's all looks and no substance, with even basic things like appropriate bolt weight being widely missed and ignored, let alone any of the more complex stuff. At best there are a couple hobbyists experimenting and trying various stuff while for commercial repros are commonly made so crudely and superficial that they struggle to send a bolt at rock throwing speed. It doesn't help that there are like two wooden crossbows with intact prods surviving from middle ages total, both though to be from 15th century or something so we've got next to nothing to work with.

With steel crossbows despite more surviving examples there's very little research into their actual capabilies and reproductions just either use modern steel prods or make their own resembling antiques visually and zero thought about performance, with corresdponding loss of efficiency.

>>63982647
Of the little research we do have on the topic there's for example one British guy from a century ago that did some shooting with an actual surviving steel prod heavy weight crossbow from iirc 16th century, and his results weren't just better than modern repros but it performed several times better than them, flinging heavy bolts made for that crossbow past 400m when modern repros struggle to reach half that distance with any kind of bolt.

>>63981494
>very heavy (850 lb) crossbow tod cutler shot for distance only had a range of ~200 m.
Andreas bichler made a ~270lb replica of a wooden crossbow surviving in one British armory and shot it to ~250m range. I must add that there's contention that this crossbow was assembled out of mismatched parts due to excessively large prod compared to the stock so it's not the most optimal design.

Tod cutler's crossbows are nothing but wall hangers.

>>63982299
Technically dirt walls continued being used in Europe later on, Romans constructed quick temporary fortifications out of log faced dirt packed walls and medieval wooden castles used a similar design, often plastered and covered to look like a stone castle but neither of these were ever considered anything but quick, cheap and low security option for fortifications.

>>63982647
Thats sort of the strange thing with modern swords is that they're made for the market, got to be cheap and stand up to being bonked into a car door by fat kids that spend the other half of their time with them molesting plastic bottles of water. As a craft its been dead for about a century really at least in the western side of things. No real reason to improve a weapon system that no one actually uses, it'd be sort of like if the M16 platform wasn't used for a century and the replicas were given to people who are functionally retarded. You'd make it heavier, tougher and probably firing something cheap and easily available a 100 years from now rather than 5.56 and it wouldn't cause bum cancer in California.
Sort of ended up in a weird place with capitalism, warranty returns, no real world use by people who don't know what they're doing with them and made by people who have no practical experience making them but have a low-point price limit for what they can sell them for.

So the art of manufacturing doesn't really have much incentive to continue moving up in terms of effectiveness. People aren't making them from S7 and A8Mod steels or improving the cutting edge, balance, handle ergo or any putting in super-effective geometry for the edge. Sure there's the artisan market but they're really even bigger cases of wall hangers than the cheap shit in a lot of ways, no one's running around getting into sword fights with some $20k pattern welded, gold inlaid and engraved piece. Its nice as an art-piece, but functionally useless as the cheap swords made by Bang Fuq in some Chinese province for pennies on the dollar.

>>63981209
I can't. I submit to the peasant girl. Let her do what she will.

>>63982739
Modern swords, at least the midrange and above stuff have come miles and miles from where they were 20+ years ago though, it's absolutely commendable. I understand that today sensibilities of hobbyists are different from the ones of medieval warriors which is why they still differ varied even in generally accurate reproductions. It's a good thing that we understand enough about sword design today that this becomes an educated choise rather than the only way we know how to make swords like it used to be. I think it's fair and good enough and close enough to the real thing that people can appreciate and use it in a similar way and definitely not the most glaring point of criticism that can be directed to the industry today.

>>63981223
good chance its a actual chinese campaign. Reddit had this spam a year ago with the exact same topics that later shifted on to how great chinese manufacturing and products is/are.

Same with the city walls etc. the goal is to diminish European or US achievments while hyping up theirs. All in marxist fashion by ignoring reality and making up their own lol

These were basically dragoons.
The weakness was simply foot archers who were more accurate, had far higher poundage bows, more range, and could be massed. Or just shields in general.

The reason these cavalry were dominant was for logistical reasons, and they were typically employed against small settlements which had no cavalry of their own, so it would be a bit like a tank rolling into a rural town. it's a concentration of resources issue

>>63980161
>And their fortifications packed enough provisions to last for years
Their fortifications, in the vast majority of cases, amounted to massive walls in or near cities.
They were beaten by raiding the neighboring counties and driving as much of the rural population into the city as possible. This stretched food/water resources thin and created a breeding ground for disease.
European fortifications, while significantly thinner, were also individually more numerous, being designed to control space in areas with low population density and difficult terrain. If you wanted to beat them, you'd have to wheel siege engines or large numbers of infantry up.

>>63981494
>how did the outnumbered mongol horse archers defeat massed chinese crossbowmen?
Mongol horse archers were only one part of their army. Anyone can tell you their lancers were their most reliable element.

>>63983128
Chinese crossbowmen also seem to feature very little in records made by anyone other than chinese themselves even where they supposedly should've been in contact with each other and could've made an impact.

>>63982662
Even if crossbows could match the range they would be inferior for long range engagement - especially - because slow reloading would drastically reduce the volume of indirect fire. You can mitigate the downside of slower rate of fire if at least it's accurate.

>>63978037
>Those were wars of conquest and subjugation, failing to achieve goals and calling it a raid is a mongocope.
Maybe there's a spectrum of possible outcomes instead of everything having to be one specific thing. You could make these specious (you didn't acheive X therefore acheiving Y is irrelevant!) arguments about any military action

>>63978095
wait, there's a vidya featuring the Koumanoi? I gotta check this out

>>63983394
>indirect fire
Please do not use terminology until you actually understand what it means.

>>63979340
They considered converting to either islam or orthodox for the trade privileges. Orthodox allowed them to drink booze. Amber and slaves were big money, chuckledingus

>>63983147
you can say the same about all their weapons, maybe people outside china don't care for whatever reason...

>>63983433
Did you understand the meaning of this "terminology" or not?

>>63983497
>Amber and slaves were big money, chuckledingus
No matter how much you vomit your idiotic cope it won't make broke slav niggers anything but cavemen-tier poors.

>>63977463
The artist was trying to show how many kinds of crossbow spanners there were.

>>63983394
Your theorycrafting is meaningless and you don't understand a single thing about the topic. Shut the fuck up.

>>63980298
Yeah well the han genocided the xiongnu until they ran away tails between their legs and they became the romans worst enemy, the huns! So eat my ass, your rascism is a sign of the white mans last stand

>>63983530
>and they became the romans worst enemy, the huns!
Chinksect headcannon is hilarious.
>So eat my ass, your rascism is a sign of the white mans last stand
I could cave your insect face down to your asshole with my left hand, all the two feet distance you disgusting manlet.

>>63979722
Not a good idea. Horse archers wore lighter armor than most lancers and mongol horses were shorter than European chargers. There also wasn't anywhere to keep a lance so a horse archer was basically on even ground against enemy archers in a melee despite having a larger logistics footprint.

>>63983504
Yes, and you don't otherwise you wouldn't have used it. Do yourself a favor and look it up.

>>63983553
Dude, did you understand what I meant or not?

>>63983525
Ackhually there is a reason why bows being flat-out better than crossbows is not a contention among historians. The only discussion is why, being so, some people were still using crossbows kek.
(and muh long training doesn't explain it either since if some - quite many in fact - people were using bows then everybody could).
I will leave you the pleasure of googling up the sources of further information about the subject kek.

>>63983564
You meant muh shooting high and long. Which isn't indirect fire. Don't try to backtrack and pretend you actually meant archers are getting fire orders and corrections from beyond LOS.

>>63983631
>Ackhually there is a reason why bows being flat-out better than crossbows is not a contention among historians.
>Those historians were revealed to me in a dream.
Weird self-own.

>>63983645
>You meant muh shooting high and long.
See, wasn't that hard. I always believed that you could do it. (hint: it wasn't volley fire either according to the "terminology")

>>63983651
whoah, we have an expert among us!

>>63981228
Someone make a reaction pic with that miggers face.

>>63983657
Have you tried not talking like a raging homosexual for once? Then maybe they'd let you in the library and lend you a dictionary that you so sorely lack.

>>63983670
>bbbut - do you have a sourse???
when I tell you that I do you aren't satisfied either. You ladies are hard to please.

>>63983666
Your redditspeak is leaking, my lady.

>>63982316
One thing i always wondered about that position is how bad would it fuck the bow up after repeated use? When fired the forward momentum is going to throw the bow forward however much. Would it mostly just degrade the bow string from rubbing on your boots?

>>63983692
I see a slow reload on you part

>>63983518
Have a blessed day buddy.

>>63983684
retard

>>63983727
It would be blessed if i didn't have to deal with niggers claiming that any backwards shithole is actually richer than Germany because they do slave trade, thank you very much.

>>63983552
They kept their lance in a sheath strapped to the horse, same as their bow, similar to a cowboy.They typically had bow, lance, and sword/axe/mace

>>63983692
I wouldn't know about that, I believe in your expertise here.

>>63983750
This would sound more believable if you didn't act like a hysterical woman repeatedly when cornered.

>>63983757
>when cornered
just give up at that point, you're high already

>>63983739
Sucks to suck then i guess. Now back to your containment little boy

>>63983631
>The only discussion is why, being so, some people were still using crossbows kek.
And by "some people" you mean literally everybody on the mainland, after the bongolians got their shit pushed in at Castillon.

>>63977300 (OP)
With canister shot.

>>63983769
Was this supposed to be a witty retort? I swear turdie IQ is going down by the year.

>>63983631
>The only discussion is why, being so, some people were still using crossbows kek.
Because they couldn't master art of archery.

>>63982739
Eh, with swords we're actually in a pretty good place now.
Obviously the lower price ranges are absolute dogshit, but there are some manufacturers that make high quality stuff for premium prices.

>>63983769
>Now back to your containment little boy

just use reddit. Why come here? Nobody enjoys your content and nobody will give you updoots.

The validation your crave isnt here

>>63984305
implessive samefagging

>>63977300 (OP)
with a fucking shield lol.

>>63977300 (OP)
>On the field
Shields. Arrows are finite.
>On the map
Walls to retreat behind. With early warning beacons. Light Cavalry to scout to locate, then raid their camps and baggage locations when the main force is out raiding you. Never engage in direct battle. Win the supply war.

>>63977300 (OP)
>indulge in the chase with cavalry mixed with light infantry
>break apart and let them try to feint the feint
>break their center
gg, alexander's tactic always worked like a charm versus nomadic cavalry and he was outnumbered as fuck with lighter cavalry even.

>>63979722
Wouldn't a horse-riding bow be smaller/lower pull weight than a foot soldier bow?
This would mean an area in the horse charge where the foot archers could outshoot the charge of horse-riding archers.

>>63977341
The last time I can think of when this happened is during the Napoleonic Wars, the Russians sent thousands of horse archers against the French at Dresden and Leipzig and they consistently got BTFO. Got nicknamed "cupids" by the French because they were funny guys with bows.

>>63977300 (OP)
You had some options in pitched battles, but they were avoiding pitched battles and disengaging at will when faced organized opposition. They went to loot another place, you are standing in the field like an idiot.
Eastern Europeans were burning grasses and meadows to deny food for their horses; and they were still doing it centuries after the Mongols stopped being a threat kek - a local tradition.

>>63977300 (OP)
Russians had build a thousands of kilometers long and many kilometers deep barrier of fallen trees - impenetrable for horses - to slow down their raids and give the defenders time to react and gather their forces in specific regions where the Mongols were.