Thread 64109496

So are 5th generation fighters a meme? Europe gets by just fine with 4th generation fighters and they seem to know what they're doing.

>>64109496 (OP)
Europe has a rough idea of what it's doing, which is why half of it is trying to develop a new fighter.

>>64109505
I doubt Europe wis going to be all that interested in 6th generation fighters considering how few 5th generation fighters they ended up purchasing.

>>64109505
and the other half bought the F-35

they could get by with 1st generation fighters if they have no intention of actually fighting anybody

>>64109496 (OP)
>gets by just fine
>seem to know what they're doing

>>64109523
Which they are now discarding in favor of Eurofighters

>>64109496 (OP)
Europes main antagonists are Russia and churkas, so 4.5th gen is doing just fine for them.

The US main antagonist is China (although the US is allying with Russia which is allied with China, which makes this all a bit weird) and they have 3 5th gen planes, so the US has a need for them too.

>>64109589
>discarding in favor of Eurofighters
Uh no? A few are just not buying any anymore

>>64109600
Which indicates that they are satisfied with the 4th gen fighters they have.

>>64109611
You said discard.

>>64109516
Well, you're pretty stupid if you thought that given the number of countries that operate mixed fleets. Their 3.5/4 Gen aircraft get swapped for 5 Gen, and their 4.5 get swapped for 6 Gen.

>>64109523
>>64109589
"They" meaning two countries. Both of which have no nuclear strike role within NATO.

>>64109616
>Both of which have no nuclear strike role within NATO.
Europe has no need of nuclear strike capability, it has no enemies with nuclear strike ability

>>64109619
Ok great opinion, you're welcome to argue that with NATO itself.

>>64109496 (OP)
Depends on who made it. The F-15EX is a 4.5 gen air superiority fighter that will have its way with comparable aircraft, but I don't see it defeating F-35s unless there's a massive gap in pilot skill.
European aircraft like the Gripen and Typhoon are very capable with advanced avionics and missile technology. I still don't see them having the advantage against a stealth aircraft, but their only adversaries are going to be Russian or maybe Chinese so it doesn't matter.

>>64109611
They aren't, they are just more dissatisfied with the US.

>>64109496 (OP)
Which is why they've currently ordered ~600 F-35s, right?

>>64109600
None of whom had ever made a formal monetary commitment to purchase

>>64109496 (OP)
We're getting by just fine sure, but there hasn't actually been a war against an enemy with superior (or equal) technology.
It all depends on who you're fighting (or not fighting) I guess.

>>64109496 (OP)
F-35 sales to europe so far: 636
Eurofighter sales to europe: 487 (76 obsolete)
SEAD or deep strike capabilities where F-35 would be most useful: near zero

>>64109704
F-35 sales were more ideological rather than based on their needs.

>>64109717
no, it was the best multirole aircraft available even if you don't need VLO characteristics, which most countries having tiny airforces with no replenishment capability will actually greatly benefit from

>>64109755
It was overpriced and unneeded since most Euro countries have no carriers and Russia couldn't counter 4th generation planes anyways.

>>64109496 (OP)
Euro power fantasy of not needing the US, and in their deepest, darkest most secret of thoughts, telling the US they are inferior and need to be put in their place by the mighty European alliance...of totally sovereign countries who don't need each other either.

Tl/dr: Fantasizing about being king is a mental illness that holds back societies. Fantasizing about building an enduring empire and wiping out lesser cultures, that is pretty based.

>>64109771
it was not overpriced
1/3 of the sales went to countries with carriers
it was needed because it allows operating easily without air superiority
russia can counter 4th gens since around 10 years ago after the introduction of modern planes, missiles and air defense systems, getting air superiority let alone air supremacy would be difficult now, especially with those shitty little airforces with microscopic stocks
you want to set favorable operational conditions from day one not in the 3rd month after you have to start committing reserves becasue your tiny armies are attrited due to lack of air power

>>64109824
>russia can counter 4th gens
Proofs Ivan?

>>64109838
argumentum ad russum, truly a tourist classic

>>64109838
NTA. I can't say I know everything about the AA systems going on in the "SMO". However, aren't the ukrainians using russian AA systems? And aren't they holding off russians preventing them from gaining air superiority? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that, at the very least, these systems can do something instead of being free targets?
Honestly though, I haven't a clue how effective they are vs western systems but it's probably safe to say they're pretty shit but good enough to deter.

>>64109496 (OP)
>Europe gets by just fine with 4th generation fighters
That's because their most likely opponent is currently failing to achieve air superiority over a country fielding piston-engine-driven fighter planes for air-to-air combat in 2025

>>64109877
Ukrainians are using western AA systems too, and the Russian systems like the S-200 were upgraded by Poland

>>64109496 (OP)
Europe makes the finest aircraft in the world, they unfortunately live in a fantasy world that no longer exists. Regardless the Tornado did excellent work in the last war and the Typhoon would as well.

>>64109597
>US is allying with Russia
Oh yes I'm sure Drumpf is getting ready to 'punish' Ukraine yet again... By giving them more weapons, well technically he's selling them to Europe who in turn will hand them to Ukrainians.
>b-b-b-but Drumpf won't give Ukraine the weapons directly!!!!
Why's that fucking matter? Technically the US didn't give weapons to the Mujahideen/Taliban directly either, Pakistan was the middleman of that exchange.

Anyway seeing both pro Russia bros and pro Ukraine bros fall for this fake olive branch theater AGAIN is gonna be funny.
Ya'll nigga's have the memory of a fucking goldfish honestly. Hint, it doesn't matter who's president and everything is a gay psy-op. Just enjoy the ride.

>>64109496 (OP)
>>64109516
>>64109548
they can rely on USA backing, if the USA was weaker than it currently is, they would have to build their own but USA having their backs means they can skimp on the expensive stuff and rely on others which is causing some tension in current affairs. everybody is too reliant on the USA as of late and we are tired of picking up the tab all the time.

>>64109589
No, they're just dropping the F-35 because they are poor, they aren't replacing them with a plane that costs double.

>>64109838
S300 and 400, look it up.

We Europeans have 1 enemy. Russia. F35 is more than good enough for the next 20 years.

>>64109496 (OP)
>gets by just fine
>gets whacked by PL-15s from jets a quarter of the cost

>>64109496 (OP)
I do think stealth is a meme in any modern conflict, it works against sand dwellers with 50 year old soviet stuff but modern radar equipment can isolate the RCS of stealth planes even if they are only 0.1x as big as conventional fighters, like Hensoldt Twinvis tracking a F-35 for 140km with a single car-mounted radar a couple years ago

>>64114660
Being able to see something and being able to acquire a firing solution are two completely different things

>>64109654
You're never ever JUST fighting F-35s

>>64109496 (OP)
Yes