Thread 64123397

I just don't get the difference between a brigade and a division besides size.
Can someone be a kind soul and tell me how and why it fucking matters?

>>64123397 (OP)
you literally just said it, retard

Why it matters?

You mean why more soldiers matter? In a war?

Are you that retarded?

>>64123397 (OP)
Historically a division was commanded by a general officer and operated fully independently, while a brigade was not and did not. For modern armies this is no longer necessarily the case.

>>64123397 (OP)
>soldier
>fire team
>squad
>platoon
>company/battery
>battalion
>brigade
>division
>corps

multiple brigades make up a division, just like multiple squads make up a platoon.

>>64123397 (OP)
We haven't heard anything from Prigozhin in a while, is he okay?

>>64123415
>what is a brigadier general

>>64123397 (OP)
It's about the mental load on an officer and the number of "things" he can track in real time. After centuries of experimenting, the general consensus is that 3-5 is the optimal range of "playing pieces" a CO can juggle without dropping one. Down at the lowest level, a fireteam leader manages 3-4 men. A squad leader manages 2-3 fireteams. A platoon commander has 3-5 squads, totaling about 30 men, which also fits a natural break point of being about the maximum number of men you can corral by running around and screaming at them. A company has 3-5 platoons for roughly 100 men, which is about how many you can physically keep an eye on in detail on the post industrial battlefield and scream at someone to scream at the guy you want screamed at. Then battalions, brigades and/or regiments, divisions, and finally armies all follow through on the same principle.

It's about breaking down the insanely complicated task of moving tens of thousands of men around in an environment where people are trying to kill them into discrete chunks, so that every decision-maker in the chain has a workload that fits neatly into his mental capacity. Each step up the chain sees a larger picture, but at a lower resolution.

>>64123418
You forgot regiment

>>64123418
Yeah but why is my unit constantly hopping around brigades like some slut

Gaius Marius came back from the dead and destroyed divisions. From here on our, it's RCTs only.

>>64123444
>>64123448
NTA
The US is a little strange about regiments/brigades, and it mostly comes down to how small the US Army has gotten since its peak during WW2. The regiment is the main holder of history within the Army, so they didn't want to shut down regiments wholesale, but they also didn't have the manpower to keep them all running. The solution is that most regiments only have 1 or 2 battalions active at a time. If all the battalions under the same headquarters belong to the same regiment, then it is that regiment. If not, then that's a brigade.

>>64123440
You legit don't know or are you just trolling?

>>64123397 (OP)

Historically (circa 19th Century/early 20th Century), a brigade consisted of 2-4 infantry regiments (the primary striking arm of armies until the advent of tanks) operating on their own. A division would consist of 2-4 infantry brigades plus permanently assigned artillery and dedicated combat service support units (engineering, logistics, transportation, medical, etc.). The difference has since become a bit more blurred now because now most armies are mechanized. The United States Army for instance transitioned to the Brigade Combat Team model in the early-2000s where these resources were redistributed to brigade-level commands, essentially making them fully independent and capable of conducting combat operations on their own.

>>64123397 (OP)
A brigade isn't capable of operational or strategic offensive action

>>64123479
>The United States Army for instance transitioned to the Brigade Combat Team model in the early-2000s where these resources were redistributed to brigade-level commands, essentially making them fully independent and capable of conducting combat operations on their own.The United States Army for instance transitioned to the Brigade Combat Team model in the early-2000s where these resources were redistributed to brigade-level commands, essentially making them fully independent and capable of conducting combat operations on their own.

In theory, in practice against a near peer opponent they get attrited and aren't concentrated enough which is why the US went back to divisions a few years ago

>>64123440
Mein fuhrer.... Priggy......

What's the difference between a battalion and a regiment?

>>64123493

A battalion is 2-3 companies (200-400 men), a regiment is usually 2-3 battalions 1,000-1,500 men) or at least that's what it's supposed to be on paper. During the American Civil War for instance, it was very common for regiments to be >300 men due to attrition and the lack of a proper replacement system.

>>64123483
Ideally you just use a mix of both and transition units from a division command structure to a brigade command structure when they're being used to maneuver, then back once they're done. My understanding is that this is basically how it works but I could be wrong

>>64123505
My country doesn't have regiments. Only battalions (called regiments) which are organized into brigades and under divisions during peace time.

>>64123397 (OP)
They are the smallest, independent units capable of sustaining operations for few days without support from other units.
You can make them smaller (brigades) or larger (divisions) depending on the doctrine and the size of you armed forces.

>>64123568
What's the point of divisions if brigades exist? Like if you need more men just stack some more brigades... I heard the PLA transitioned to brigade system, whatever the fuck that means

>>64123440
His plane suffered a technical malfunction common in Russia, an aerial explosion. It's not a stretch to say that the explosion had something to do with the surface-to-air missiles fired at it. Russian SAMs historically have an excellent record of countering civilian airliners.

>>64123598
Divisions are obsolete because they are too bulky. It's all brigades now and in time it will be all battalions doing all the fighting.

>>64123598
>just stack some more brigades...
that's what a division is

>>64123505
In murrica army all of our infantry batallions in my brigage had 3 companies of line units plus higher headquarters which included the recon, medics and mortar platoons, maintenance company and the S shops plus staff. That's like 600+. 3 infantantry batallions, scout regiment, brigade fires battery, etc. That's like 4000 soldiers in one brigade

>>64123813
Forgot to add for us at least our division had 2 brigades, plus all the division command and so forth

It is unclear whether the reorganization into compact mechanized strike groups was a bad idea, or whether there simply weren't enough troops to fight in the war with Ukraine.

>>64123718
Yeah OP is a fucking retard

>>64123397 (OP)
It doesn't matter. Every country does it different. Don't get hung up on the details, it's literally just a matter of size and building blocks. Every echelon is adding together two or more of the smaller echelons and then adding some extra stuff (e.g. artillery, logistics) now appropriate for the size. Which then in turn is used as a building block for the next echelon up.

Basically this
>>64123718
but with the caveat that grouping echelons formally together means being able to coordinate and control easier due to the divisional commander, and the opportunity to apply divisional assets that were inappropriate for the battalion's size.

Anything else is just navel-gazing masturbation by theorists playing with definitions around size and independence. e.g. whenever the division/brigade debate comes up. In time technology will improve firepower and command to the point that the smallest independent formation will be a single man, if we're still using humans to fight by that point. The Russian division/brigade argument is also a different beast from the American division/brigade argument. But at its core it's about having e.g. three independent brigades or three brigades working together under a divisional structure.

>>64124025
It's worth noting that not having a robust upper echelon command structure is a massive handicap if you want to do mechanised warfare and not get bogged down like Russia and Ukraine. This isn't something people talk about a lot, but there have been significant problems on the front with coordinating groupings as small as a few battalions, mostly due to lack of good commanders

>>64123397 (OP)
Brigadier general is in charge of a Brigade. 2-star is in charge of a division.

>>64123718
It isnt. Brigades are smaller versions of divisions yes but 10 brigades don't make a division. Divisions are unwieldy. Brigades have organics. Cmon...

>>64123462
>it mostly comes down to how small the US Army has gotten since its peak during WW2. The regiment is the main holder of history within the Army, so they didn't want to shut down regiments wholesale, but they also didn't have the manpower to keep them all running. The solution is that most regiments only have 1 or 2 battalions active at a time.
Nothing you said has anything to do with the US Army post-WW2. What you're describing is what the British Army did... in 1881.

>>64127479
>but 10 brigades don't make a division
Yeah, because that'd be an entire fucking corps.

A division is much like a brigade. A relic of the past. These days they are largely ceremonial or administrative. In war time, units will be a mashed together to form task forces. The core will be brigades, made up of various battalions from combat battalions to supporting battalions. This is far better than a large division which has gigantic regiments of hundreds of thousands of troops with attached supporting regiments. Divisions are an outdated form of warfare because we no longer see massive battles like in ww2 or in Korea. Brigades are much better suited for America's manuevre warfare because they are more compact, more independent, and more self sustaining. They don't need to radio for division for artillery support, they have their own. Disregard people who say that divisions are just larger brigades, they are fucking stupid retarded enlisteds.

>>64127479
>Brigades have organics.
Now this right here is some Dunning-Krueger shit.

>>64127516
>a large division which has gigantic regiments of hundreds of thousands of troops
God, I hope this is bait. I really do.

>>64127525
He over exaggerates the numbers bust is mostly correct. Reforms are made to militaries worldwide to favor smaller independent units rather than large ones.

Thing is though, divisions and brigades serve different functions. People here pretend the only difference is size but it isn't. A brigade's job is to maneuver while a division's job is to fight on its own. A division can be used to maneuver but thats not the point. Divisions are less mobile due to its massive size of tens of thousands of men. In comparison, brigades can be anywhere between a couple to half a dozen thousand. Significantly smaller and much more mobile. Brigades can't function on their own because they lack the supporting elements that are found in division but are more flexible.

Pic is divisions being used to maneuver. In smaller scale conflicts, the maneuvering elements will be brigades. Though if you ask me, just make everything brigades and make them report to army group commander.

>>64127628
>Pic

>>64127629
Theres currently no example of brigade warfare because none exist. its all experimental.

>>64127629
Why didn't Prigozhin do a month long bombing campaign before doing a massive flanking move?

>>64123641
killing goatherders doesn't count, the ukraine war has shown the division system is superior.

>>64127744
Then why did the US swap away from it?

>>64127942
Uh... the US is currently swapping back to divisions.

>>64128369
But then what happens when theres another COIN op?

>>64123444
regiments are generally not a tactical unit but an administrative one

in cases where regiments are deployed as tactical units they generally take the place of brigades, as the level between a battalion and a division

>>64127479
any unit starting with the company up has "organics", as in sub-units that are different from the primary mode of service.

the choice what to put at brigade level, what to put at division level and what to put at corps or even army level is very different depending on the time and place.
>>64123718
any higher order unit is primary subunits + hq + supporting units, it's never just a stack of subunits