Thread 64153988

Seems like with massive spike in the presence of FRTs, super safeties, slip trip kits, pistol "braces" and the like, PDWs and SMG type weapons seem more and more practical to me, even though I once believed SMGs became obsolete with the introduction of assault rifles along with their shorter carbine configurations, a 9mm bullet hose thats more controllable than a handgun, and nearly as compact seems extremely useful in a "personal defense weapon" role. Its almost as if they were never obsolete to begin with, they were just cucked by laws into having nearly zero legal civilian application.

>>64153988 (OP)
they were never "obsolete" to begin with
where the fuck did you even hear that?

Submachine guns are not 'obsolete' they've just been pushed into a narrower niche.

PCCs have always been cucked. a PCC and an SMG are two different things because one is a machine gun and the other is not.

Do yourself a favor and pick up a 7"-10" 300blk and an FRT trigger.
Make sure you get a .30 cal can too.
I'd recommend a short barrel and a long supressor.
Unless you shoot supersonic only then go 8"+

>>64154009
so in total, how much would that cost?

>>64154015
You can get a PSA upper for like $300.
The ammo is a little pricey.
That's why you need to get one
300blk is so fucking good I want everyone to get 300 uppers and drive down the price of that ammo.
Put a fucking can on it.
It's so damn good /k/ is sleeping on 300 way too hard.
A 6" AR in 300 BLK shits on all pistol caliber SMGs and PCCs...

>>64153995
4chan
youtube
arfcom
articles
experts

etc ad nosium

>>64154040
oh, so its just gonna be $300 for an upper, and a can that magically has no cost?
what about the rest of the gun? oh, that would require you to admit its $1000+? thats nice, thanks

>>64154051
Dawg the supersonic 300 BLK performs so well out of sub 10" barrels on an AR you dont even need the can right now.
I'm thinking of building a supersonic only 300 with a 10.5 barrel because I dont think I'm ever going to take the supressor off my 7.5".
300 blk makes sbr ARs worthwhile...

>>64154060
are you drunk

>>64154065
Are you too poor for firearms?
Just get a full size 9.
Are you even allowed to own a gun in your country?
300 BLK is the shit, turns your AR into a rifle round SMG and retarded foreigners on /k/ are sleeping on it so damn bad.

>>64154051
you didnt seem to care about price in the OP, why does it matter now? do you actually not care about this topic and just want to be argumentative?

>>64154076
lmao
nice crashout, wino

he actually doesn't care about the topic and just wants to be argumentative.

>>64154078
Because I get the distinct feeling he's not even allowed to own guns.

>>64154091
>>64154097
>so its $1000+ dollars
<NOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOO SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

>>64154102
no one is arguing that, man. you never mentioned price until someone suggested an SBR. your only argument against SBRs seems to be that they cost more money which like yeah well done you pwnd the libtards.

>>64153988 (OP)
Has anyone made a PDW where the stock retracts in fully like this? Underfolders are cool too

>>64154125
Yeah.

>>64153988 (OP)
You aren't wrong, the problem is a lack of FRT compatibility with currently available PDWs(im not aware of any outside of maybe a glock in a chassis) and the possible legal issues that could come from using them in SD. No, im not gonna trot out the old fudd line of "that there salt weapon gonna put you in jail if you use it to defend your home!", but I personally think its prudent to let other people be the test cases in your own jurisdiction as they are a bit of a newer thing and are exploding in popularity. Im not aware of any SD cases involving gat cranks, bump stocks, etc so im personally not sure how much of a hate boner it'd be likely to inspire in your typical liberal DA/Prosecutor or how effective it will be at coloring and misinforming juries in edge cases where theres enough of a dispute over the facts of the case that a malicious prosecutor/DA is trying their luck at turning a self defense case into a homicide case. Personally im optimistic and hopeful for a near future where that turns out to be a nothingburger and we can all lawfully enjoy TMP sized self defense firearms with a high enough ROF to make them nearly as good at stopping somebody right now as a blast from a 12g.
>>64154009
kinda dumb desu and i like .300 blk. theres a massive gulf in terms of size between something like a raider or TMP and a .300 blk shorty. If you're running supers its about equal to 5.56 for HD, if you're running subs and want small then see the last point, if you're running subs but want smallish then a delayed blowback pcc does the same thing while keeping practice MASSIVELY cheaper.

.300 blk stands out when you can just have one gun and want it to cover all your bases(including weird improbable ones) with one gun thats fairly small. They're overrated for an HD specific gun.

>>64154119
the issue is just going "bro, buy this entire system that costs as much as multiple guns & optics, and also requires you do do a ton of paperwork too"
to add to that, in a subsonic carbine/pistol build, it literally gets mogged by a fucking 10mm glock

why the hell would i buy that then? just to feel cool? its certainly not for legitimate defense

>>64154148
>the issue is

no, the issue is someone suggested and SBR and that hurt your feelings. this entire thread is about small full auto weapons for self defense, something that is simply not practical and is mostly just for fun / flexing / larping

>>64154141
My frt cycled subsonic 300 though a can just fine.
Idk why AR people are even fucking with 9mm conversions.
Ammo price I guess.
300 is the best damn civilian carbine round on the market right now, shoot 220 grain through a can out to 200 yards and tell me 300 isn't better than all the PCCs right now.
I can see a 9mm PCC just to save cash on ammo but the subsonic 9mm is still pricey.
Supersonic 300 out of a 7"-11" barrel is like 7.62x39, the supers perform extremely well in ballistics gel...
Dudes are out there deer and hog hunting with subsonic 300

In their present chamberings, kinda, but no self-loading gun is truly obsolete. However 80kpsi and some grip geometry optimization permit the feeding of an intermediate cartridge through the grip, so the mag-in-grip architecture is nerfed given what’s possible.

Picrel is something I sketched up. It is meant to be the cross section of a grip at the point where it interfaces with the web of your hand - the point of smallest circumference. 1” in width, 2.15” in total depth. The red lines are the outline of the magazine (1mm thin). The outside of the grip is nice and curvy so shouldn’t be uncomfortable. Cartridge overall length is 1.8”, Case head diameter is 0.39” (10mm - same as 9x19mm). The Bullet is .257 in caliber and 0.9” long (optimal for maximizing retained energy at 300yds from 8” barrel, but anything from .243 to .264 works equally well). At 80kspi, the powley computer tells me this should produce 1100ft*lbs from an 8” barrel. Closer to 1300ft*lbs from a 12” barrel, but that’s getting a bit long.

>>64154160
thats very good of you to completely ignore the fact .300 is a meme
you sure convinced me to buy one, and not that people who seriously think "7.62x39 AR edition" are dupes who spend their days coping over shitty purchases

>>64154060
>supersonic 300 BLK performs so well out of sub 10" barrels on an AR you dont even need the can right now.
Yea, that's not even somewhat true. I actually own an 11.5" 5.56 AR and 9" .300 blk. There's no meaningful difference between the two when unsupressed. Skewing things in .300 blks favor(not to try to justify my own poor financial decisions or anything) comparing m193 vs defensive ammo i think i MIGHT be able to detect some tiny difference but not enough to make a difference. I strongly suspect that you don't own a similarly sized 5.56 and .300 blk firearm.

>>64154043
So you listened to
>retards
>retards that get money to be retarded
>retards but old
>retards that get money to use Chat GPT to be retarded
>retards who arent getting VA benefits like they thought they would

>>64154173
You are a bonified fucking idiot.
Watch Mountains, Mullets and Merica ring steel at 600 yards with supersonic 300 out of a 10" barrel.
He was even making hits with subsonics out to 600...
/k/ is like a decade behind on this shit, its fucking PATHETIC

>>64154168(me)
I should add, the scale might be off by 1 or 2% here and there as I did not take great pains to ensure 0.1mm accuracy, but the point is, it’s possible to feed something double-stacked through the grip that is far more potent that anything that’s been fed through the grip before. Mogs 5.7 and 4.6, mogs 7.5FK, mogs 9x25, mogs the 5.56 MINSAS of the MPoo7.

>>64154189
>wow look at this guy shoot targets
yup, guns can do that
you can do that with literally any other gun that can reach that range too
so, impressive, so very, very impressive

shove your meme round up your ass, and come back with a real piece

>>64154179
>11.5" 5.56
Nothing you say will enlighten me.
Hate to be mean but you didn't even get the right fucking barrel length for 5.56.
I have a 16" AR and a 7.5" 300 is about to take its place.
When you start buying 77 grain 5.56 to make up for that lack of barrel length the damn price per round is even in the same ballpark...
I was grouping 220 subsonics around 2" at 200 yards I haven't even bothered shooting supersonics out that far.

>>64154040
A .300 for an HD gun is fucking stupid. Yes, I have owned one. If you want a suppressed firearm for HD, get a Stribog .45 PDW with a K can.

>>64154206
Hes just gonna call you a noguns idiot. The guy is an autist, and .300 is his hyperfixation.

>>64153988 (OP)
They’ve largely been supplanted by short barreled rifles in their role, but they still have a place in niche situations where you want an extra compact weapon that offers more bang than a handgun.

>>64154213
There are so many guys here with a particular brand of autism that you can recognize instantly.

>1) 6.5BMG/9mm Action Express guy. He was active for like 2 weeks (anyone remember him?)
>2) 11.5 PSA guy
>3) this 300 blackout guy
>4) me - the holsterable MK18 guy

>>64153988 (OP)
There's only been consensus on their obsolescence in a military context. Intermediate and pistol caliber suppressed PDWs would be the home defense meta if not for the NFA.

>>64154165
>220 grain through a can out to 200 yards and tell me 300 isn't better than all the PCCs right now.
lol.
>shooters calculator shows +13.3 inches @ 50 yards, and 18.9 inches @ 100 yds with a 220-grain subsonic bullet zeroed at 200 yds.

>>64154213
Thats fine. He can call me names while I can be smug in the knowledge that he is an idiot. We both win.

>>64154240
Yes, you have to use the marks on your optic.
Plug it into a ballistics calculator and it will even tell you how many clicks on your LPVO...
You need HD out to 200 yards?
How big is your property?

>>64154237
>pistol caliber suppressed PDWs for HD

Literally all you need. A HD gun does not select for lethality as much as it does for comfort and maneuverability. Just something small and light that you can hold and fire with one hand that isn’t gonna make you deaf. As long as the gun isn’t manual action or rimfire, you’re good. Bro I’ve seen pictures of guys showing off their 5.56 HD guns with a fucking LPVO on it. You have a 200 yard hallway?

>>64154223
No they have not. Firing a short barreled supersonic rifle round indoors even with a can fucking sucks. There also is no reason to choose a .300 over a .45 for suppressed close range use.

>>64154237
It pisses me off. It should be the right of every American to ventilate home intruders with a submachine gun.

>>64154165
>Idk why AR people are...
firearms aren't my identity, they are tools and an enjoyable hobby.
>Ammo price I guess.
you can literally do twice as much or more practice with a pistol caliber vs .300 blk subs for the same price. Not exactly a small difference unless you're one of those 50rnds a range trip every month sorts.
>tell me 300 isn't better than all the PCCs right now
Outside of solid copper meme rounds for a buck eighty or so a trigger pull(you do vet your defensive firearms with 1k rounds any time you make a major change, right anon?) the expanded diameter of subsonic .300 blk is the same or less than lol9mm. including those its as good as .45.
>I can see a 9mm PCC just to save cash on ammo but the subsonic 9mm is still pricey.
its actually almost the same exact cost as supersonic 9mm
>Supersonic 300 out of a 7"-11" barrel is like 7.62x39, the supers perform extremely well in ballistics gel
this is true, and i like the cartridge for that, its also true that 5.56 can perform as well as it does when you look at actual hunting results if you give the 5.56 an extra 2" of barrel. It does do a bit better when you're talking about larger game or automotive barriers though.

I think youd have a different opinion on this if you had a PDW sized 9mm to play with. Getting that small really changes things, even compared to something like an MP5k. Suddenly things like going through a doorway or around a corner requires zero fuckery, you've got a gun that's way better than a handgun but fits in a normal ass bag with room to spare, you aren't either knocking in to everything or doing gun yoga using the thing from inside a car. Im willing to respect your preference for .300 blk, but if you think there's nothing to gain with tiny pistol caliber guns i think you just havent had experience with them or haven't looked at them in the right light.

IMO YMMV ETC

>>64154266
When I am president, I will make it illegal for anyone to make or sell a pistol caliber *anything* that isn’t a full auto SBR.

>>64154256
I was referring to the post I commented on. Try and keep up. You will not be able to fucking use a round with a rainbow trajectory in any real use case besides hitting static targets at known ranges. .300 is a meme.

>>64154261
Oh, ok. Better go tell all the soldiers of the world they’re doing it wrong, then.

>>64153988 (OP)
If the NFA wasn’t a thing, PCCs would be the preferred HD gun.

>>64154282
they're still adopting new smgs
you're the one that has tell them they're wrong

>>64154345
Nobody is adopting pistol caliber smgs...
They're all moving to short barrel rifles.

>>64154361
wanna say that again? lol

>>64154043
Good God anon

>>64154043
>ad nosium

>sees TP9
obligatory request for someone to FRTerize the TP9

>>64154372
>adopted for personal security detachments

So, very limited and niche roles. Thanks for proving my point.

>>64154474
so why didn't they get a SBR then?

>>64154474
>>64154480
I'd take my 300 with an FRT for "personal protection" anyday over a 9mm smg lmao.
I'd take a full sized 9mm pistol long before I'd fuck around with a 9mm smg...

>>64154480

>>64154223

PDWs/SMGs aren't Obsolete, just more niche than previous generations.

in the civilian context they seem more practical since we typically don't face armored threats and are very compact. That being said anyone who is citing the "just use a 300BO" answer haven't run one extensively.

I've built an LVAW and a honeybadger out, when I compare them to my SP5K they are chonky. Yes you get more gun for your gun, but you also lose out in concealability. If the p320 wasn't such a nightmare of a gun the Flux would be a good compromise.

all in all, its your money to spend. find something you like and go actually train and use it, people are gonna shit on you regardless.

>>64154229
There's also me, the pistol-length .300BLK chad.

>>64154429
Im trying so hard anon, but Im so fucking retarded

>>64154761
>im trying so hard

What? You make FRTs?

>>64154773
Making is a very strong word, slamming my hands against my keyboard until something resembling a functional design appears in CAD would be more accurate

>>64154778
Yeah, also known as “making stuff”. Don’t sell yourself short bro.

>>64154761
are you the anon from the FRT thread the other week that was looking into it?

>>64154867
Yeah, I've got the majority of it done I just need to go through and make sure it all measures out correctly

>>64154960
god bless you anon. may you strike gold and deliver a functioning FRT for the TP9

>>64154002
This, the process of new things supplanting old things follows a kind of archetype, the new thing is usually better in the core use case of the old thing, but is necessarily not as good in the more fringe uses, and so the old thing carries on in these niches.

This happened with revolvers and semi autos where semi autos almost completely replaced revolvers in the midsize duty gun category but revolvers persist in the ultra small category (snubbies) and for magnum hunting cartridges

You can see this process in nature too, angiosperms (flowering plants) replaced gymnosperms (conifers) in many of their core niches in the tropics and subtropics but gymnosperms remained dominant in cold and dry environments, and on highly leached acidic soil.

>>64155003
Another fun plant anaology, in more competitive ecologies the old thing is usually under greater pressure from the new thing, but in more chill ecologies the old thing can sometimes stick around without changing too much, like with Araucaria trees in South America and Oceania, similarly we see how revolvers remain in use in Brazil

>>64154361
The Fort 230 was adopted THIS YEAR and its seeing hot combat use. Arty and vehicle crews are getting them, turns out the original PDW role of rearguard and support troops fighting off incursions is still relevant, and they dont need a short barrel rifle to do it, they arent actually that much at a disadvantage to need shit like the AK74U.

You will likely never engage people beyond 100m if it's -them- who are deep inside your lines and advancing on you. Most combatants don't even visually ID eachother beyond that range in a place with clutter and cover. Beyond 'OH SHIT' range, you can literally just leave and let someone else deal with it.

>>64154361
>Nobody is adopting pistol caliber smgs...
But that statement is wrong.

>>64155257
>>64155388
those don't count

>>64155397
How so?

>>64155425
its not .300blk

>>64155430
Oh sorry I missed the part where you said
>Nobody is adopting pistol caliber smgs in .300blk....

>>64153995
PDWs as a concept definitely are. Maybe they'll make a comeback when the drone threat makes everyone deck themselves out in IIIA armor again

>>64154125
The MP5K with B&T telescopic stock

>>64155510
It is pretty great, the stock is gouging you at like $600 however.

>>64154148
>$1000
>multiple guns and optics
If you're buying hi-points, maybe.

>>64153988 (OP)
if there was no nfa and other jew gun laws eveyone would be rocking full auto wrist pdws in 3.8 meow meow

>>64153988 (OP)
>Are PDW/SMGs still obsolete?
No. Plate carriers stop everything less powerful than a 50 cal. The only way to beat a plate carrier is to shoot what it doesn't cover and all individual weapons are equally good at this.

>is shooting motherfuckers with a gun still effective
yea buddy

>>64155729
We throw the word “obsolete” around a lot, I do too. It’s almost never true as there is Atleast one thing a gun is still good at. “Suboptimal” is probably better.

It’s funny how even in the 21st century when we’re right on the cusp of colonizing Mars, the best and most cutting edge way of killing someone is still to just hit them with a rock (bullet). Rock, and the things that throw them, will never be obsolete.

>>64156941
>almost on the cusp of colonizing mars
Lolno, maybe 1000 years from now after the dark ages that come after the collapse of the American Empire

>>64155499
checked,
the 1990 mil requirement definition of "PDW" was always just a submachine gun with a new cartridge (that had different 'extended' ballistics from pistol rounds).
Gun itself is a submachine gun in size class.
Picrel submachine gun can be made into an actual PDW by switching out the barrel
https://sadefensejournal.com/brugger-thomet-mp9-in-6-5x-25-cbj/

>>64155499
>>64158585
>Picrel submachine gun can be made into an actual PDW by switching out the barrel
https://sadefensejournal.com/brugger-thomets-mp9-in-6-5x-25-cbj/

*CORRECTED typographical error in URL

>>64155499
>>64158585
>>64158594
Wrong again.


Here is the corrected URL for the article (You) need to read:
https://sadefensejournal.com/brugger-thomets-mp9-in-6-5x25-cbj/

>>64154867
He’s the sperg that keeps posting about his imaginary frt business that will totally exist in the future(tm)

Should I buy a tp9, or an mp5?

>>64157135
We’ve had rovers on Mars for a couple years now and have the tech to build ships capable of delivering enormous payloads to the red planet. No reason that that payload can’t be a bunch of life support systems and the people to inhabit them. If the transit window to Mars opened up right now and you put a gun to Elon’s head and said “fuck safety, you have to do it now”, there would be a colony on Mars this time next year.

That weird that your reply didn’t give me a (you). How come this happens sometimes?

>>64158711
I'm not saying humanity doesn't have the raw technical ability right now, but we're in a period of stagnation and decline and the will and organisation needed is lacking, and it will probably get worse going forward, leading to actual technical problems

>>64159372
Fair point, I agree. I was in fact just talking about technical capability, which is 99% of the hurdle.

>>64155257
>>64155388
Ukraine adopted them into service only because the AKS-74U is no longer produced.
PDWs are dead, kid, accept it.

>>64159520
the aks74u wasn't really that liked during service, so its no skin off their back
the russians aren't really using them anymore either

>>64158598
Interesting but how does the CRISAT target compare to Russian GOST standards

>>64154206
Why get a 1500 dollar stribog when I can get a 300 blk upper for my ar for 250 dollars? The stribog is not nearly good enough to justify that price.

>>64154015

If you want it to run well, probably around $2K-$3K. That's remarkably cheap considering a real submachine gun is expensive as fuck. MP5 full-auto? Expect to pay around $35K-45K for one, no frills.

I still think a Super Safety is the better option for such weapons though, as it's not a auto-sear and is still technically legal in most states. Requires more fiddling and knowledge but it's viable and can be made at home.

In all honesty, the can will cost more than the gun itself for a 300blk sbr and you don't want to cheap out when it comes to weapons with a high rate of fire.

>>64155388
>7.5" barrel
Uzi-like guns always have long barrels for their length. S&W really should make one using their tempo gas delay system. That would be a segment-beating PDW, a TP-9 with lower recoil and not thousands of dollars.

>>64161782
Oops, forgot the animation.

>>64155708
I like this guy's line of thinking and I'll expand on how it applies well here
I've hunted with lots of different calibers and used to make custom gun in all sorts of new hotness calibers that were sold in the 5k-15k range and I have completed in competitive shooting and placed near the top pretty much every time
.300 Bo has marginal performance in subsonics in my experience and marginal performance in supersonics at any realistic hunting range
My buddy has done the same stuff as me and ran into the same issues and of course bad shot placements are the cause but if you have to have good shot placements isn't that the same argument most people use to discount pistol rounds
I had a scope lose zero on a 30-06 but shot at a bobcat too dark to see the cross hairs anyway bad shot hit the hips completely obliterated them and I got it anyway had to walk into some brush as thick as Vietnam without a flashlight and the thing hissing at me but it made it 10 feet from where it got shot
I've hit several javelina with .300 blackout subs and supers one also in the hips and with one exception where it got hit right in the brain they've never gone down easy with it me and my buddy both shot a deer simultaneously with .300 subs and then trailed it for miles
Might have had better luck with the fancy high dollar ammo might have had better luck with actual sights instead of just a cheap laser and night vision
but the point is I've been overjoyed at being able to poach something out of someone's backyard without them knowing with it been less enthusiastic about the effects hence why now that I have money I haven't gone back and used high dollar ammo and real sights
Take all that fwiw not exactly scientific data and there isn't much of a control group since I usually have good shot placements since I usually have actual sights

>>64154204
lurk

what's the best mag in grip pcc?

>>64163189
>wall of text
>zero punctuation

Please take an English class

Also,
>I shot a bobcat
You are a nigger

>>64153995
SMGs have been obsolete ever since assault rifles proliferated everywhere

>>64153995
rifle for home defense
handgun for concealed carry
anything else is for fun (which is a plenty good reason to own it btw)

>>64163481
> anything else is for fun (which is a plenty good reason to own it btw)

Thank fuck it is, it is the civilian market purchasing guns as toys that keeps the industry big and healthy. Otherwise everyone would have max 2 guns that would outlive them, and never buy anything else.

Is it *technically* illegal to shoulder a pistol brace? I don't wanna get kicked out of public ranges and shit like that.

>>64164969
Yes. Very illegal. You will be executed without trial.

>>64164969
No, not anymore. Go for it. It was totally overturned in the courts. Even the big YouTubers are shouldering braces.

>>64154984
How the fuck is that PVS-14 there? Is it glued to her head?

>>64164969
Maybe some boomers would have shot you a suspicious glare 10 years ago but today nobody, not even a democratic boomer cop with a heart problem gives a fuck.

I use the brace at ranges with an rso because you never know who is a faggot but other than that nobody cares.

>>64154259
An LPVO is serviceable enough you can either have it set up with just that set up, or add a piggyback set up for a dot. Bonus point for getting the cool guy high mount height without springing for a retardedly expensive mount. If you want a one gun solution, you could do worse, but it wouldn't be my choice.

>>64166387
>one gun solution.
Yes. This makes sense. But starting with a stripped lower and announcing “Here I go! Building my home defense gun!” Is retarded. Or Sifting through 10 different guns in your safe and picking the LPVO-clad rifle instead of like a pistol is also retarded.

>>64154168
Tangentially related at best, but I keep looking at a ruger lc carbine converted to 460 Rowland… and while I admittedly just want it for shits and giggles… it is pretty damn compact for being able to run low to middle 44 mag power bullets…

>>64167241
No doubt it’s possible to feed double stacked high energy cartridges through the grip, like 460 Rowland. It’s trivial to do, just use a big straight walled cartridge loaded to high pressure. the problem however is BC, velcoity, and recoil. 460 Rowland produces, what, 1000-1200ft*lbs at the muzzle? But the BC is shit so all this energy will be bled to the atmosphere in a short distance. The velocity is very low so the trajectory is a rainbow - low MPBR. The recoil is also quite stout. I guess if you’re never gonna shoot beyond 100-200 yards and don’t mind the recoil then it’s fine.

That said, big bore thumpers are some of the coolest guns and I love them so much. One day I will assemble a 400 legend SBR.

Are there any 460 Rowland conversions for the Ruger? It’s kind of an obscure cartridge..

>>64153988 (OP)
What about guns for vehicle crews, drone operators, and people who need bigger than a pistol if shit hits the fan but aren't supposed to be on the front lines? Reports about the AKS-74U said the gun was big and overpowered for that job so a short barreled intermediate cartridge gun isn't one-size-fits-all.

>>64154168
This is just .257 fireball. It absolutely won't utilize an 8" barrel efficiently. We don't need to guess whether the grip would be practical, Knights Armament made mags/magwells for their proprietary 6x35mm and they absolutely don't look close to small enough for a wrap-around grip with a trigger on the other end.
Also for future mockups, hexagonal stack width is D+D(COS(30)), or approximately 1.866x the maximal width dimension of the cartridge.

>>64153988 (OP)
I've thought about exactly this problem for a long time; a cartridge ideal for weapons such as the MP7/TP9/Uzi configuration, yet also being compatible with current industry-standard dimensions, and being the potential parent for a new line of cartridges, what I've landed on is;
>tapered straight-wall
>1.35 CL, 1.65COAL
>.300 rim, .300 base, .285 neck
>.257 projectile
Basically a 30carbine squished to .257, with the same bolt face diameter as .22magnum.
>makes efficient use of short barrels at high pressure
>more muzzle energy than 5.7 at equivalent pressures due to expansion ratio
>less flash than 5.7 at equivalent barrel lengths due to expansion ratio
>no need for a special coating to aid feeding/extraction
>high magazine body volume fill (min bulk, max loadout)
Also in terms of commercialization outside this PDW role;
>ideal varmint base cartridge for either .172/.204/.224 bottleneck variants
>ideal centerfire chambering for rifles alternatively chambered in rimfire cartridges
>can still be chambered in double-stack handguns with comfortable grips

>>64159520
Why didn't they just remake it? Hell, they could have given tankers the mayluk because it's a compact bullpup.

>>64168153
That's too many compromises for the sake of fitting the bullet into a pistol grip. We should make a PDW that doesn't use a grip magazine. That way it can have a more powerful round.

Oh wait!

>>64153995
this pic made me lol when i opened it

>>64168159
Because in 2025 everything is aluminum extrusions and not stamped steel. Extrusion tooling is more adaptable and the pool of engineers experienced in it is far higher.

And since this is a niche requirement with limited impact, and the AK74u kinda sucks to begin with, it's not worth reviving an entire production method to fulfil it. Also the chance these become a police weapon after the war is virtually 100%, and 9mm PDWs are more useful than a 5.45 flashbang SBR for that.

>>64164969
Depends on your state. I'm a blood red state nobody will give a fuck. In a neocon state like Arizona you'll be arrested before you pull the trigger. In a blue state they execute your daughter and castrate your son, as well.

>>64168164
>That's too many compromises
The compromise is the same effective range as 30carbine. In fact you get a little more in terms of trajectory.
>Oh wait!
300 blackout from a 5.5" barrel has exactly the same compromises and some others.
>for the sake of fitting the bullet into a pistol grip
Doing this is actually very advantageous, you shrink the receiver size, shift the weight backwards, while simultaneously gaining about 2.5" of barrel length.

>>64168192
Or, we do something truly radical and make a bullpup PDW. The Micron is 23.43” overall and has an 11.5" barrel. What a game changer.

>>64168225
OK, that's better, but that's the same weight as an AR, both in terms of the weapon itself, but also the loadout. The mags and ammo are also (obviously) the same bulk and weight as an AR's.

It's also still a physically larger weapon than something like the MP-7. It's only the same length as a grip-magazine PDW with the stock extended, and that's because there's a length below which shoulder-fired weapons become impractically short due to ergonomics. A deployed flux raider with a suppressor is the same approximate length for this reason.

>>64168192
>… while simultaneously gaining about 2.5" of barrel length

Try more like 4-5” inches. Look how far back the front of the magazine (indexes roughly with the breech) has to move back in order to fit into the grip. Conventional rifles are too length-inefficient, and bullpups are meme guns with a fixed LOP and cluttered hand placement. Mag-in-grip is the way forward.

>>64168164
How powerful do you need it?

>>64168153
>thats 257 fireball
…and?
>wont utilize an 8” barrel efficiently
But it is the correct caliber and bullet length combination to yield the most retained energy at 300 yards, regardless of efficiency. This type of maximization selects for Bullet lengths between 0.9-0.95” and calibers between 243 and 264. I am aware it is, all things considered, nerfed from such a short barrel.
>grip is impractical
What specifically is wrong with it?
>stack width = 1.866x case head
Yeah 1+(sqrt3)/2. I realize I blundered slightly the aspect ratio of the cartridges, they should overlap a bit more.
>6x35TSWG
IIRC the OAL of that cartridge was closer to 2 inches. Yeah it won’t feed through a human-sized grip. But 0.2” in grip depth is a huge deal. The difference between grippable and ungrippable.. pickup a 5.56 and imagine the whole thing is truncated to just its case length. A cartridge that size can absolutley feed through the grip.

>>64168248
>The mags and ammo are also (obviously) the same bulk and weight as an AR's.
I would consider the ammo commonality to be a plus. 5.56 mags are smaller than P90 mags, no? And honestly, the P90 still makes for a fine PDW in it's own right. It an overall length of 19.9" and a 10.5" barrel, which is even smaller than a micron, but without the loss of much barrel.

Imagine if the P90 didn't have to bother with using a round that fits in a pistol grip. That could be something special.

>>64153988 (OP)
I want a compact 9mm or .45 for home defense. Yes I know 11.5 psa exists.

>>64168268
If your goal is to still be effective at 300m, then just use an 11.5" AR with a folding stock. The PDW is meant to be a compact weapon that can be used defensively. You aren't meant to go assaulting with it. The PDW is for base defense and vehicle crews that shouldn't be leaving their vehicles to begin with.

>>64168153
>>64168268(me)
I should elaborate on this:
> But it is the correct caliber and bullet length combination to yield the most retained energy at 300 yards

I modeled bullets in 1mm length increments in an online drag function tool. Got the mass and BC. Plugged it in the powley computer, then plugged those outputs into shooter’s calculator. Did the same for caliber.

>>64168164
The only sensible use for that 5” 300 blackout is with subs. Not exactly powerful. They’d suck dick with supers, probabaly similar to how nerfed a 5.56 is from a 10” barrel. Feed the cartridge through the grip and you can add 4-5” for free. Length with the stock deployed will be the same, though collapsed length will increase.

>>64168302
5.56mm from a 10" barrel is more powerful than 9mm from an 11" barrel. There's a bunch of 7" ARs and they're also more powerful than 9mm from long barrels. This is why SBRs replaced SMGs across the world.

So logically, a round that's actually optimized for short barrels while retaining the case capacity of 5.56mm will do even better.

>>64168307
>appeal zogbots
>he doesn't know why PCCs are better for civilian use in every way

>>64168307
But why are you comparing it to 9mm? There ar more potent cartridges that can feed through the grip, which is what this disagreement is about - conventional vs mag-in-grip

>>64168268
>>grip is impractical
>What specifically is wrong with it?
It will be too big. You should try making a wood/cardboard mockup, put a glove on, and then see how much finger flexure/reach you have for an imaginary trigger on the far side of it with your thumb wrapped around the back. Then imagine having cold or smaller hands and doing the same thing.
>regardless of efficiency
Anything you don't burn in the barrel is burned outside it, which either necessitates more suppression or incurs more disturbance for the shooter. I get that your guiding principle is max terminal effect of a single hit at and within 300yds, I just think that's the wrong guiding principle. I think after bulk/weight minimizing, hit probability is far more important, which means more ammo, usable full-auto (both in terms of shoot-ability and having the loadout not to run dry in no time), and low shooter disturbance for especially people who don't shoot often (police/POGs).

Also for sub-50yd trench work (which is like 90% of the combat footage coming out of Ukraine in which rifles are actually used on both sides), being able to blindly dump over a small ditch for suppression or effect is the key thing you want your gun to be good at. Being able to carry like 400+ rounds would bestow decisive close-in fire superiority.

>>64168273
The P90 mag is uniquely space inefficient due to it's feeding geometry.
>Imagine if the P90 didn't have to bother with using a round that fits in a pistol grip. That could be something special.
It would very quickly become very bulky if you increased any dimension of a loaded round it's chambered in. The feed mechanism particularly, and you need to carry one of those on each mag.

>>64168325
The core point was that conventional layout guns with barrels which seem to be restrictively short can in fact be more powerful than guns chambered in weaker calibers with longer barrels.

>>64154004
By that logic ARs are cuck guns, which is true doebeit

>>64168336
>and then see how much finger flexure/reach you have for an imaginary trigger on the far side of it with your thumb wrapped around the back
Forgot to add: also imagine using your thumb to actuate a safety on the left side of the receiver. That's how far you need to be round the grip.
If you want a lever safety like an AK then you'd need to use something like an HK paddle release for the mag, which I'm not against. But then you'll have a linkage from the pivot point to the sear, which will increase the size of the receiver.

>>64168336
>it will be too big.
The grip is narrower than my gen 3 Glock 19 and only about 1/8” deeper along that critical line perpendicular to grip angle. The only other thing I have that more closely approximates the grip size and geometry is my vape - 1/8” bigger in every dimension. If this was a pistol grip, I’d be fine with it. But you are right, I should try to make a physical mock-up. But one more thing to consider is that this is not a pistol. The grip need not conform perfectly to the interior of your fist. There are 3 other points of contact on the gun. The grip just has to not be fuckhuge.

>wrong thing to optimize for.
Well it seemed that the constraints imposed by cartridge dimensions and barrel length would severely handicap mid-range performance so that’s what I sought to maximize. Hit probability is in fact important but with the constraints imposed by mag-in-grip, this would come at the great cost of energy at all ranges (.224 bullet would be laser-like, but far less energetic). But I totally agree with you that a mag in grip PDW/assault rifle is not the future of rifles. More like one direction in which an intermediate cartridge can bifurcate. The other being a smaller and lighter 5.56 analog, feeding from quad stacks into a constant recoil action with a 400 round combat load. Indeed, volume of fire and useful full auto are king. I just really like the idea of a <4lb, <16” assault rifle, and I feel the mag-in-grip PDW is not yet a mature firearm species, despite being around for decades, and that it can accept a chambering that will allow it to encroach into assault rifle territory.

>>64168351
<facepalm> No

>>64154004
This.

>>64168347
Ofcourse they can, but there is such a thing as “sufficiently powerful”, anything beyond which carries some penalty like weight, recoil, magazine capacity, or trajectory. I contend that a “sufficiently powerful” cartridge can be made to feed through the grip.

>>64168409
>Semi auto gun that was originally full auto
>Implying civie cuck guns are anything but toys
>Implying you aren't going to get raped by drones
>Implying ARs are anything but useless war totems

>>64168416
I'm of the mind that neither layout is sufficiently powerful, at least in the sense of penning armor. But if one layout can be more powerful, use the same manual of arms as the AR15, have great suppressed performance and the option for supersonics, then it would be the obvious choice.

>>64168336
>The P90 mag is uniquely space inefficient due to it's feeding geometry.
Okay, here me out here, because I feel like a genius for this idea. What if we built the feeding geometry into the gun? Just keep the mag simple and have it feed into the merry go round?

>>64168432
>ar15 manual of arms
If possible that would be ideal, but I can’t imagine the manual of arms deviating too much from that of a pistol. A mag in grip gun is kind of like a pistol lower with a rifle upper.

>>64168439
NTA. The merry go round has to come before the feed lips unless you engineer some way to keep all the cartridges in the mag without them flying out until you install it into the gun, then this mechanism subsides and cartridges are allowed to feed in.

>>64168568
I'd probably try to make a mag with a lever that gets pushed in when the mag is fully inserted. The lever being depressed unlocks the magazine.

>>64168580
You still have the problem of the width of the merry go round. It’s gonna scale with the length of the cartridge.

>>64153988 (OP)
Useful in police and securty settings where the range is short and the threat is unsophisticated and poorly equipped.

Not useful at longer ranges against a conpetent and equiped enemy. PDW wounding is inferior to carbine wounding.

>>64153988 (OP)
The Kriss Vector FRT has brought PCC's back into the conversation.

>>64154165
>Ammo price I guess.
Correct. Along with commonality of using the same ammo or magazines as the pistol you already own.

>>64168586
I'd either embrace that feature, like the american 180, or mount the magazine feed system sideways.

>>64153988 (OP)
Yeah they're kinda dumb. At the end of the day you're just buying an expensive 9mm pea shooter and putting a bunch of "force multipliers" on it to cope. Short barreled ARs are cheaper and more accessible than ever, and you can get a 7.62x39 AK with a 10" barrel and the same OAL as an MP5 for about $1k. The only reasons to bother with 9mm are weight and cost savings. Using something with an FRT as your CCW is just asking to get raped in court anyway. The only reason cops still like using 9mm subguns is because 9mm is cheap, easy to shoot, and politically correct.

>>64168599
Why, does it also fit in good guns?

>>64154051
$500 for the gun if you go psa, $1000 for the can

>>64153988 (OP)
To my understanding, based on opinions expressed on this board, all weapons other than FPV kamikaze drones are obsolete.

>>64168429
? back to plebbit, schizo.

>>64168313
>civilian use

>>64158631
MP5 or MP5K now if you wanna shoot FRT TODAY and owning one should be mandatory

TMP for the grindcore wait for multiple design teams to figure out how to stick a FRT in there (they've got shit like the PS90, Stribog, CZ Evo, etc up first though and have readily admitted the TP9 will be hard)

>>64159520
They're making short bullpup Malyuk's in 5.45x39 and 5.56 and they still have the license for the Tavor in the same calibers plus theyre fucking around with imported .300blk guns and 3rd party european short 7.62x39 modded AK's.

SMG's become suprisingly relevant again when trench and urban warfare are your bread and butter. Ukraine has been heavily impressed with donated MP7 and P90 but ammo supply is a huge concern - so they made a 9mm MP7 and they just make hot as balls 9mm for it

>>64168283
>PDW is for
part of the 1990 NATO spec requirement yes, it was mainly a defensive security behind-front-lines concept.
None of that has either been 'proven' in combat nor have the actual-issued "PDW"s, MP7 and P90, been solely or exclusively deployed that way. It ended up just being a boutique submachine gun (with a non-pistol round), issued as-built in the same way and to the same units/roles, that submachine guns have been for decades prior.
(And the further extrapolation on the U.S. firearms market of all the "PDW" and "PCC" enthusiasts is just funkopop videogamer cosplay 'I want a gun that visually replicates __________________' but is semiauto)

Compact small arms for mil use since the 1980s have mostly consisted of short-barreled automatic rifles, and this has consequently pushed (pistol-caliber) submachine guns into a more narrow and scarce niche role; they still exist, but only for a small exclusive demand market.

>>64154429
You mean make F/A kits.
FRTs are for niggers.

>>64169469
FRTs make ATF cope and seethe, F/A kits get your dog killed. If you don't have a dog, they'll even bring one for you to shoot in front of you.

>>64154168
>put two bullets into one LARGER bullet

dude... youre a GENIUS

>>64168704
>>64168713
There is LITERALLY no reason to get a PCC over an 11.5 PSA AR, cucked SMGs are truly the perfect gun for a midwit desu

>>64170156
Maybe just don’t magdump at a public range like a retard, that’s what public land is for.
>But my state is gay and blah blah
Skill issue.

>>64169469
>FRTs are for niggers
Glock auto Sears are for niggers. Niggers don’t know what an FRT is (or what the NFA is)

>just make your gun full auto!
Myopic, Reckless disregard for the law is also for niggers.

>>64170327
What?

>>64168641
Kek

>>64167290
The 460 Rowland guys are actually selling converted lc carbines for about 1150$…. They add a brake and do some tuning. Also most of the 250 gn or higher runs at least 1300 fps out of a pistol… and the 185 gn from a couple different manufacturers gets up to 1500…

>>64170361
>LITERALLY
except for that (You)r post is concur-able
absolutely pccs are for people that enjoy wasting money and effort (but if they enjoy it let 'em)

>>64153988 (OP)
>military
Yeah pretty much, could be useful for vehicle crews that don't have much room eg. tanks and planes.
>LEO
SMGs are peak LEO arms.

>>64153995
For general infantry issue SMGs have been obsolete since assault rifles replaced them.

>>64153988 (OP)
>go hiking
>tired as fuck
>shaky as fuck
>go to sleep innatent
>wake up to bear shoving walls in
>can't hold a 1hand pistol worth shit
>other guns would be too heavy to hike with
>capacity over 10 is required in case you meet more than 1 aggressor(animal/other)

You don't want a 10lb gun. Or a long gun. Or a single handed pistol. What do you carry innawoods?

This is an extreme example that isn't full PDW and is a rifle caliber, but its light enough for THAT role with a 30rd mag to hold as a foregrip.

>>64169469
>>64170156
>>64171024
>FRTs, glock auto sears
they're a simulacrum of an MG, the real select fire from factory weapon

>your dog
No American should be under that threat, gun laws are unconstitutional
see above wouldn't be necessary if NFA/Hughes were removed, as it ought (you may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one)

>>64153988 (OP)
>almost as if they were never obsolete to begin with, they were just cucked by laws into having nearly zero legal civilian application.
This. If you're in the US, at least, since laws elsewhere aren't as retarded. There's a reason the original scorpion is still made, for example (and actually a pretty common hunting sidearm here in Germany - semi only, though - since it's short enough to follow a boar into dense brush, and the stock makes it alright for mid-range shots). It also used to be common with criminals when ussr stocks were still readily available.

Just don't expect pistol cartridges to pierce armor, if that's what you need, you need a proper carbine.

>>64172096
>shaky as fuck
Weakass city slicker

What I don’t get is why we don’t see more like this. 30 carbine is ballistically similar to .357, out of a +6in barrel makes for a bit more oomph than other calibers. The Enforcer used to be somewhat common. Why can’t we have nice things?

>>64168191
>blood red state nobody will give a fuck
Except your local Range Officer that will take pics and report you to the police

>>64172818
> What I don’t get is why we don’t see more like this

What is it specifically about “this” that you’re referring to? The rifle type or the chambering?

>>64168191
>[they] castrate your son as well

They do this anyways.

>kill your daughter
They do this anyways as well, via one of their pets

>>64172855
checked, think ? he means .30 Carbine cartridge.
Now with .300 BLK available it's been pushed further into a narrow specialist niche
('bit more oomph than .357' is more pcc-logic and advocacy)

>>64165231
with the power of god and anime

>>64153988 (OP)
No, they are cute and cool.

>>64172986
If 30 carbine is what he meant, yeah we have those, they’re called 300 blackout SBRs lol. They have myriad benefits over 30 carbine, and the only real cost is 0.5” in action length and a couple grains In cartridge weight. The action length isn’t even a demerit cause that extra length simply eats into the length of pull - the gun’s total length remains the same.

>>64153988 (OP)
pdw where overpenetration is a problem or for cqc.
assault rifle in more spacy scenarios.

remember that girl shot by a nigger cop in a shop thru 3 walls when she was on the toilet? because nigger cop was not situstion aware and chose the wrong tool for an american cardboard building?

>>64175480
Just use subsonics if overpenetration is a concern. Pistol cartridges are never the answer.

>>64175648
9mm has more energy than subsonic 5.56, rifles depend on velocity to have energy.

>>64175655
Subsonic 5.56mm is just .22lr by another name.

But subsonic 300blk is .45ACP. Very powerful slugs.

>>64172818
Lots of companies tried it, it's just that .30 Carbine ammo stocks got depleted a lot faster than those companies thought they would

>>64175655
Not to nitpick, but
>rifles depend on velocity to have energy
Not strictly true, just that putting 1300ft*lbs behind a .224 bullet, at 1050fps will require a bullet far more massive than any .224 can be. About 530 grains lol.

But yeah subsonic 5.56 is a meme. How heavy are the bullets? Like 100gr tops?

>>64175655
>subsonic 5.56
And who in this thread has suggested such a thing?

>>64153988 (OP)
They won't be obsolete until the automatic weapon ban is lifted. Until then SMG>semi-auto assault rifle.

>>64168429
>Implying civie cuck guns are anything but to-BANG

>>64176012
>putting 1300ft*lbs behind a .224 bullet, at 1050fps will require a bullet far more massive than any .224 can be. About 530 grains lol.
That's true of every projectile regardless of caliber, what's your point? No pistol cartridge is going to shoot a bullet that heavy except maybe some obscure specialist loading of .50 AE that won't even cycle.

>>64176151
>SMG>semi-auto assault rifle
(overall premise of your post is correct, but) Rifles are always better than pistol-caliber firearms, whether or not they're select fire
There's no such thing as a 'semi-auto assault rifle'
it's just a semi-automatic rifle

>>64154125
this is the only example I have found online of the thing you're talking about

>>64154125
The obvious example is the MP7. But I think B&T also makes a telescoping stock for the TP9, or one can be retrofitted. Not sure though.

>>64168586
Make the rounds telescoped(or cank up the caliber), make them a bit fatter.
The awkwardness of the magazine design comes from the length of the rounds, not so much the case diameter.

>>64168568
Just make it like the Madsen where the feed lips disengage when you insert the mag.

>>64171024
>Myopic, Reckless disregard for the law is also for niggers.
The Constitution is the highest law of the land.

>>64153988 (OP)
>it's another episode of anons trying to convince me that i NEED an AR carbine to ward off the crack head stealing my plasma TV because he might be wearing lvl IIIA

>>64180025
So get a handgun. Why carry around an AR-sized pistol when you can own a pistol and an AR?

>>64178595
“Constitutions are made of paper, bayonets are made of steel”

Should the cops/ATF find out about your illegal albeit Constitution-compliant machinegun, they will come haul you off to jail. If you resist, they will kill you. The constitution factors nowhere. A law only becomes the law when there’s guns behind it, and right now those guns say “you can’t have a machinegun”.

>>64180032
This.
PCCs don't make sense for practical use whatsoever (they may ? make sense for range toy funkopop fun-quotient waste-of-money)