Thread 64161943

What went wrong?

Their mistake was deciding to replace the M4A1 for specious reasons.

Textron would have won is we were still in a Cold War and ran by competent people.

>>64162086
They aren't gonna be replacing anything. This is just corporate welfare and political kickbacks at its finest.

>>64161943 (OP)
Army has a weird aversion to bulpups (new/futuristic and better) because old = sufficient and proven. And it's been messing them over for at least 200 years.

They went for broke by trying to pierce Level IV plates with a short barrel high pressure gun and steel core XM1186. It would have been doable if the M7 had a 20" barrel and were issued as a DMR.
Most Level IV plates are strictly rated to M2AP at 2,910ft/s and XM1186 at over 3,400ft/s will likely clap that easily with significant headroom.

>>64161943 (OP)
Why weren’t the SR25 or the MARS-H entered?

>>64161943 (OP)
Isn't the reason sig won the contract was because of corruption?

>>64162140
Truly the death of small arms advancement, the interesting ones at least.
>G11, imagine.

NSGW Program is legit just wrong tactics and infantry ideologies. It's all about deploying the newest defensive arsenal and dropping COPs/FOBs on enemy territory. The last wars we've fought are all insurgency wars. We got completely btfo by a fucking LMG, the PKM. It didn't matter if it was a 10moa gun because 10moa at fucking 1500m is fucking insane.

TLDR: What went wrong is fucking fucktards thinking we are still going to be fighting insurgency wars and not peer-to-peer wars

>>64162592
>if you know you know

>>64162595
That was justification #1 for the NGSW. It shifted over the past few years to defeating Chinese body armor, but screwed itself by going short barrel.
End result is that it can clear steel and polyethylene plates very well, and weaker ceramics (Hesco 3810 or RMA 1092 for example) fine, but is sloppy against Level IV. You need to use XM1184 tungsten-core to pull that off and you might as well just use M1158 out of an M110.

>>64161943 (OP)
>We need a relatively compact frame firing high velocity cartridges
>Cool here's a bullpup, getting the most barrel length out of the shortest package while also showcasing the next leap in ammunition technology
>Bullpup?! DO YOU THINK WE'RE SOME KINDA EUROFAGS?!
>Can you at least take the polymer ammo?
>Fuck off! Papa Sig's Pissin' Hot Loads will do us just fine!
American small arms procurement has a long history of being retarded.

>>64161943 (OP)
>polymer cases iz dum dum
>so lets use a bimetal case instead, thats totally not dum dum

>>64161943 (OP)
They missed the obvious solution: .30-06 with 3 piece cases loaded with modern propellants and modern projectiles.

>>64162835
>.30-06 but 1mm longer and the pressure jacked up with modern metallurgy and powders

>>64162835
30-06 super or 30-23 (or whenever the NGSW program was finished)?

>>64162592
>imagine a rifle that has random explosive backfires

>>64161943 (OP)
conceptually stupid, dubious quality control, unambitious.

>>64162140
why the FUCK did they out the ejection port in the location where it's most natural to hold the rifle????

>>64161943 (OP)
The most advanced rifle now would combine the bullpup and telescoped ammo rifle. The telescoped ammo one was retarded because of the ejection port location being right where your support hand grips the rifle. In bullpup config it could be moved further back to not possibly be interfered with. Then you have a very reliable rifle in a small package.

The Sig was such a bad choice, but we're a failing society. Nothing surprises me, we have corrupt retards in power so obviously rhe corrupt retard rifle would win.

>>64161943 (OP)
The whole thing is a conceptual failure, the M4 didn't need replacing (its honestly dubious whether it even needs an update now, nobody ever lost an engagement due to lack of free float rails or because 4x wasn't enough magnification) and if it did, a big overpressure battle rifle wasn't the answer. This would be annoying enough, if it wasn't also dancing on the grave of the LSAT program. Now to be clear, the LSAT rifle was kinda shit and unnecessary, it was heavier (9 lbs vs ~7.5 lbs) and longer than an M4, and the CT weight savings aren't quite as drastic in a 30 round mag. It would have sucked, and probably not been adopted. But that's not true of the LMG, the SAW has always been a fat pig and the LSAT was nearly half its weight (less than a pound heavier than the LSAT rifle, incidentally) and its ammo was 40% lighter with no ballistic difference; and all publicly available literature point to it having no real problems, not unreliable or having heat issues or anything like that. Even today, with weapons like the KAC LMG and FN Evolys that get praised for their remarkable lightness, they still fail to be as light as the LSAT, by at least a pound in both cases. For fucks sake, this shit was ready to go in 2010. Like these days kids ask why we didn't mass adopt the Stoner 63 in the 60s, and you can point to the army in Vietnam not really looking for 5.56 belt feds at a doctrinal level, plus it was very complex design ill suited for GIs who wouldn't clean it and most of its configurations were gimmicks and not that useful; and that would all be acceptable and substantiated as answers. But in 50 years when kids are asking the same about the LSAT, there wont be an equivalent answer. They'll say "we made something dramatically better than the SAW by every metric, so why didn't we adopt it", and you'll just have to say "because we ate shit". Fucking hell man, never not mad.

>>64162817
This is something I really don't get. A bullpup configuration really is a good solution to the problems the US Army are currently trying to solve. The entire point right now is wanting more energy at longer ranges for modern plates, and there's objectively no better addition to the gun you could make than a longer barrel in the same form factor. Yeah you'd need to change small arms drills a bit more but boo fucking hoo, you're trying to adopt a new rifle anyway.
It'd mean that if it ends up going the M16-to-M4 pipeline of everyone once again realising it's nicer to carry a compact gun you'd be trading off proportionately less of your barrel, too.
Bullpups aren't right for everything but here it really is what the doctor ordered.
But no, let's just buy Sig's proprietary hottest fucking load on Earth, wrap it in a weird casing that's inevitably going to be a nightmare and fling it out of an M4 barrel. I'm sure that'll be great. To say nothing of the increased weight that's going to mean you have less rounds downrange.

I know I'm really just repeating what everyone else has been saying but it really was the dumbest possible option. They reinvented the fucking M14, except I don't see this at least winning points for aesthetics in 30 years' time.

There is another option...

All Textron needed to do was either make the gun forward ejecting, or put a "rim" on the telescoping cases. Bullpupfags eat shit, the GD entry was dogshit, even by the standards you whack over. SIG was blatant corruption.

>>64162579

Some 4 Star was leaving SOCOM for a cushy corporate position at SIG right around the time the Spear won so.......

>>64164686
There are no walls strong enough to protect the enemies of man.

>>64164731
Yeah, that's the one and not the Cohen Jewish name

>>64161943 (OP)
Procurement officers are retards fighting both the last war and the fiction put out by America's enemies (but we're going to keep buying a bunch of shit and supporting their economy because line must go up).

Pic rel is the Chinese domestic armor standard. It's separated into six levels, with Level 6 being equivalent to 7.62x54R LPS and thus significantly below NIJ Level IV.
There exists a "Special Type" above that rated for an equivalent to 7.62x54R B-32 API, which is comparable to SOCOM sandbox plates like the LTC 28595 and still well below NIJ Level IV.
If we're evaluating the XM7's ability to pierce Chinese plates off of outperforming B-32 API, then the math is much easier than trying to pierce Leve IV. Still a huge walkback from what the program was targeting years ago.

>>64165151
They just CANT adopt a bullpup you don't UNDERSTAND it's just... w-well NOT POSSIBLE OKAY???? They'd rather have a 14 inch barrel then 20 with the same oal just... because.

>>64164686
dafuq is that?
Next gen grenade launcher?

>>64165162
Classic SIG shenanigans. Anyways, the original "objective" was Level IV defeat at 300 meters using the steel-core XM1186. This is obviously impossible given current specs unless their idea of a Level IV is a cheap piece of shit from Linry, literal $23 a pop bottom-shelf chinesium. The tungsten core XM1184 was to be held in reserve for future high-level plates and/or defeating Level IV at extreme standoff - a kind of "reverse XSAPI" if you will.
I think the expectation was also that Russian body armor was more competent than Ukraine proved it to be and the US would be facing 7N37-resistant turbo granits occasionally enough to need a high-velocity tungsten-core AP load.

>>64165173
Yeah

>>64165127
>Insert why not both gif here

>>64161943 (OP)
>What went wrong?

Non-Nam veteran Baby Boomers' in leadership positions, and three decades of non-'near' peer decadence while we've built up the old Enemies, and false friends greased nepo-palms like ([(Sig])}. It was borderline sedition with the M14 setting back US small arms and infantry fighting ability decades by the time of Vietnam, and likely one piece in something far more sinister today. Field exercises with these things ran out of ammo ridiculously fast— they are simply inadequate and cannot ever be fielded at scale. Maybe this replaces N DMRs in the logistics chain and perhaps SAW/Pig and that was the requirements cart before the procurement horse design all along. On paper it cannot stand after the CEO rape scandal and fatally fraudulent 3rdie parts nickel and diming.

>>64165182
>Anyways, the original "objective" was Level IV defeat at 300 meters using the steel-core XM1186
Sorry to say I don't have the link, but in a mid to late 2010s Congressional hearing they let it slip the standard was a Level III plate.
I think it was cope from the start. ICSR began justified as stopping power for CQB in Iraq. Then it was range for Afghanistan. Then plate piercing when Afghanistan ended. It was always about justifying larger diameter bullets than 556.

>>64165225
I give those congressional hearings a grain of salt, because in another (like you, don't have the link, lol) they "admitted" the now ill-fated 5.56 ADVAP replacement for M995 would defeat XSAPIs - plates able to resist 7.62x51 M993 three times at 3,050ft/s. This is a gigantic step up from any known 5.56 AP.
My hesitation for Level III is that if the plate were polyethylene M855A1 could conceivably defeat it at 300 meters. That rating in particular is also a very ineffective proxy for any current armor used by Russia or China. 7.62x51mm M80 proxies well for various hunting rifle projectiles and that's... about it. It's a dated cop rating.

>>64162828
Bimetal cases are actually pretty neat.
SIG's version is just patent dodging the Shellshock IP so it's kind of shit.

>>64163625
Gotta say, I’m really with you there. Like yes free float is cool and so it’s an LPVO, but I don’t really think it’s needed. A regular ass m4 with acog in the hands some someone trained is probably gonna be in the same ballpark as a urgi in terms of effectiveness

>>64163470
>>64162872

>>64162872
who doesn't have random explosive backfires

>>64162595
>We got completely btfo by a fucking LMG, the PKM.
It was an overly exaggerated threat and insurgents weren't some super accurate SAA Delta Seal Team 6 sharpshooter. We have other weapons longer range than this including small arms,mortars, and bigger. If the PKM used by random barely trained enemies caused a pointless program which won't produce guns capable of dealing with drones or anything remotely close to the true threats, then Kalashnikov got the last laugh in the afterlife, i indirectly making millions wind up in SIG's hands for nothing.

Look on the bright side. After the Krag we got the 1903 and after the M14 we got the M16. Whatever comes next is going to be cutting edge and we'll have it in under a decade.

>>64166026
Drones arent a threat at all lmao. Its only a threat to 2nd world country conflicts like the Ukraine War.

>>64161943 (OP)
>looks like an AR but functions like a lever action cowboy gun
how does that work?

>>64162595
>>64166026
You are a Joint Chief. You have been proposed two doctrines for dealing with entrenched enemy medium machine gunners:
>Equip all your guys with battle rifles and smart scopes with 4 hour battery lives, have them lie prone and take potshots at a 4 inch diameter hole 1500 yards away. Also you get a revolving door deal
>a single Switchblade 300

>>64161943 (OP)
2 . 5 M O A with match ammo!
.
5
M
O
A

the intro:
While it has some impressive terminal ballistic potential, the adoption of the XM7 represents a significant downgrade to the ability of Soldiers to fight and win the next peer on peer war. From World War I to the battlefields of the Russia-Ukraine War, a huge majority of infantry engagements have occurred within 300 meters. The lesson learned in blood from these conflicts is that fire superiority--not long range, aimed fire--is what wins firefights. This monograph seeks to re-examine the lessons of the past in combination with unclassified technical and tactical data to make a compelling argument against the continued adoption of the XM7. It will also examine the programs which led to the creation of the XM7, reports from units currently equipped with the XM7, and potential alternatives for consideration.

the report:
https://www.mediafire.com/file/91xl8q839hn28uj/Trent_NGSW-EWS_Fellowship_Project_%2528Final%2529.pdf/file

>>64166113
Or. Or. If the issue is PKMs and other longer range weapons outraging 5.56 platforms, why not just have platoon integrated 7.62 weapon systems like m240s and m110s? Fuck it have a switchblade drone too

>>64166095
Lever actions (and pump-action shotguns, sort of) have an elevator thing called a carrier/lifter that takes cartridges from the tubular magazine and then hands them to the bolt and chamber. In lever-actions, the cartridges are pushed into the lifter by the magazine spring, the lifter then rises to meet the bolt.
The Textron gun, as with most guns that use telescoped ammo, uses a push-through feed and eject mechanism that lowers the entire chamber to accept a cartridge from the magazine. Cartridges are pushed in from the box magazine and into the chamber by the "bolt" carrier assembly.
Aside from the fact that both of them have a thing that goes up, they aren't really that similar. I think I heard OP draw this comparison a few years ago and I didn't like it back then either. It's definitely a superior method of operation though.

>>64166140
You'll never get a good spot to shoot them from in an ambush, the bad guys will almost always be in a better position and likely already firing outside of their effective range. I think .338 GPMGs in the weapons squad would be a good idea though.

>>64162579
It isn't really corruption so much as it is corporate skullduggery. Cohen played the same game he did with the 320, selling them on a contract basically at a loss to secure it and make up the money through service and spares (plus the civilian market) while the other two companies didn't want to release rights of the patents to the military. They would have to have them serviced by the corps that made them. Probably some other stuff along with that, but that's the short of it. They do this with a lot of stuff now

>>64164730
Why put a rim on it? That wasn't the problem they were having

>>64166140
Also I don't know if you're being sarcastic since platoons already have DMRs and M240s in the weapons squad. I think this problem was mostly encountered on patrols and such, just a sandbox thang

>>64164686
The Rheinmetall one seemed like the better pick, if nothing else then for the option of stuffing in rocket boosted ammo too long to feed from the magazine.

>>64166169
Interesting. I take it this feed mechanism is one of the main advantages of telescoped ammo besides size and length?

>>64166194
>I think .338 GPMGs in the weapons squad would be a good idea though
That's the SOCOM and IDF approach with the .338 Norma SIG MG338. SOCOM even has dedicated AP and mini-Raufoss rounds for it, respectively 300gr tungsten-core M1162 and M1214. Ball and other types are of course available. M1162 is the kind of stuff that will brutalize XSAPIs from a ways away. I don't know what types of ammo the IDF is running but it wouldn't surprise me if they had something similar for punching thick walls.

>>64164686
Man, I hate this POS. It's so fucking ugly.
I'm not a bullpupfag but the PGS was literally THE thing to bullpup, viz. XM25.
>>64166266
It didn't compete with it I don't think, it's designed to fire dumb 40mm. More of a Milkor analog.
>>64166277
Yeah, .338 is awesome. I would like to see what would happen if it replaced 7.62 entirely, even in the DMR role. 7.62 would obviously stick around for whatever it is SOCOM wants short-barreled SCAR-Hs for.

>>64166267
Yeah. But telescoped also lets you make cases entirely out of polymer or forgo them entirey, reducing weight significantly. The actions can also support higher chamber pressures, up to 100kpsi.

>>64166277
>>64166328
Also: Boo! Sig!

>>64166328
The Russians and Chinese are both picking up 8.6x70 (.338) systems as well. The Russian SVch-8.6 DMR in particular uses PFO, PFO BP (steel AP), and 7N45 (tungsten sniper AP) rounds. 7N45 is likely comparable to M1162. Chinese use all kinds of stuff.

>>64166080
Anon that was back when we were a real country.....

Visionaries like pic related get chased out of the industry these days.

>yfw glowies kicked out Textron because they were scared shitless of light, cheap and easy to make plastic mold injection rounds spreading to thee public

Cutting off their nose to spite their face.

>>64161943 (OP)
Polymer cased ammo is actually a significantly worse heat sink than brass, and was one of the objections raised to not adopt it.

>>64161943 (OP)
Why not just have a DI AR that fires a telescoped cartridge?

>>64166441
That's not why at all, it doesn't even make sense

>>64166569
>why not just necesitate designing a new firearm from the ground up but make it the same as the old one
Gee idk

>>64166455
Please stop this stupid fucking myth Jesus Christ. The brass allows more heat to be transferred into the chamber then the polymer does.
>Insent video of cappie sticking his finger in a 240 after putting a belt through it here

>>64162817
American Weapons development is a mix of forward thinking (Lee Navy/M1/M14) and absolute retardation (Krag/M1903/M16).

>>64166441
Frankly the hybrid cartridges are a further advancement in cartridge development. You can steal the brass and make it what you want with insane pressures. Its why it penetrates armor. The feds don't want you to know this but you can reload the .277 Fury to .308 real fucking NATO.

>>64166629
Because the mechanism is fine. The point of the program was to have new rifle with a more powerful cartridge. Why not use the most mechanically reliable system available, but modified for a stronger cartridge instead of making some ridiculous revolving chamber nonsense?

>>64163583
US Army fudds need to fucking DIE. Marine fudds however are actually good.

When was the last time US procurement didn't fuck up anyway? F-35 sort of worked out in the end I guess.

>>64166647
You mixed up the M16 and M14

>>64166671
>F-35

My sides

>>64162872
Caseless is just a giant meme even before you get into stuff like this. It has to be handled like fine china so it doesn't crack apart and kept in hermetically sealed boxes so it doesn't draw moisture. Cased telescoped is something like 90% of the weight savings and none of those drawbacks.

>>64166666
But it isn't as simple as just making it more powerful. Although they did try that with the textron's original 5.56 CT ammunition (which woulsn't be compatible with an ar) and knox engineering messed around with straight walled cartridges, with and without sabots, all kinds of fun stuff. It's doable, but if you're going through the trouble you're better off with a design intended for it. They'd be working out the bugs with an ar crossover all the same

>>64166649
>Its why it penetrates armor
nyet, it does not penetrate Level IV like it was originally supposed to unless you use the tungsten core special ammo.

>>64161943 (OP)
>Better heat sink
Polymer is a worse heat sink. Its advantages is that thermal transfer is significantly reduced, so the chamber doesn't get heat from the propellant burn in the first place
>"There's no way technology [...]"
They've known cased telescoped ammunition was viable since LSAT
>Lever actions are iconic and should dictate what service rifle we get in 2022
You're a moron who lives in fantasy land
>XM7 does absolutely nothing new
It can deliver in terms of requirement an production schedule. The others could not.

>>64166678
The M16 was so shit the Marines had to FORCED to use it. It was so shit it had to be outright REBUILT and even then took 20 more years (A2) to be as moderately effective as a AKM. The M16 was such a trainwreck and a 1:1 example of what we have today. The M16 didn't go through any trials, it was just adopted over a BBQ and a briefcase full of money to LeMay, while the M14 was the most tested and refined weapon in US history, defeating the FAL in all environments. The M14 is still in service, the FAL? Dead. The M16? Lasted barely 3 years (1965-1968) before an entirely new weapon (M16A1) had to rushed to stop getting US troops killed.

>>64162595
>What went wrong is fucking fucktards thinking we are still going to be fighting insurgency wars and not peer-to-peer wars
Yes, defeating body armor at 600m was definitely something we'd need against the Taliban

>>64161943 (OP)
Every time an ngsw thread pops up it's just cope by bullpup fags and people who don't know how rifles actually work

>>64162835
>They missed the obvious solution: .30-06
/k/ will complain that the 6.8x51 is 7.62x51-sized and then suggest something even dumber

>>64166727
>don't know how rifles actually work
What do you mean?

>>64166727
>bullpup fags
>looks at AUG and Tavor
Uhhhhhhhhhhh

>>64163625
>FN Evolys
Nobody wants that shit because it's essentially a belt fed assault rifle. It heats up too fast, too.

>>64166724
Excellent bait post.

>>64166714
>penetrate Level IV like it was originally supposed to unless you use the tungsten core special ammo
That's what it was originally supposed to defeat armor with, you midwit

Why is summer /k/ so fucking retarded

>>64166736
FAMAS has seen more action than both these rifles combined

The French still replaced it with a 416

>>64166797
>The French still replaced it with a 416
Has nothing to do with technical prowess. When you want to cozy up to Germany and HK offers you a low-cost 416 for 800 euros, you take it.

>>64166758
The original requirement was Level IV defeat with the steel core ammo. Lol at the frauddery here.

>>64166797
Point to a large European small arms manufacture that isn't HK

>>64166855
FN

>>64166860
FN's new hottest thing is a long stroke piston with folding stock
It's nice of them to acknowledge the genius of Kalashnikov, but this is clearly not suitable for NATO.

>>64161943 (OP)
>US Military needs a new rifle
>It needs super autism ammo because we don't want civilians using stockpiles of captured military ammo when they rebel
>It also needs to piece body armor because we want to kill American civilians (populace with most amount of body armor)
>Also Sig is owned by jews, who own us, so we better do as they say
And that's how Sig won.

>>64166415
The chinks are keyholing their 5.8mm rifles at like 25 feet, the fuck are they gonna do with 8.6?

>>64166724
> M14
> beating FAL
Just say you're a benchqueen next time.

I’m still waiting for this to come out

>>64166821
>The original requirement was Level IV defeat with the steel core ammo
No, you dumb fuck.

>>64165324
Thanks to Sig's garbage QC, shitloads of hybrid cases are getting dumped on the reloading market for dirt cheap that dudes are using to hotrod all kinds of stuff. It's going to be absolutely huge for the commercial market. Kind of like how guys hotrodding modest revolver rounds back in the 30s and 40s brought about all the magnum rounds and guns built to handle them.

>>64167029
Then how come only the steel core ammo is on your slide? Where's the SP ammo timmy?

>>64166997
It's really interesting to me that the Australian Army is one of the only to be committing to bullpups. They started using a local production Aug in the 80's, switched to a heavily modified variant in the 10's and are now looking for a fully original next-gen bullpup platform.
Apparently you really feel the difference in snagging with the shorter rifle when you're pushing through bush or jungle and depending on where you are in Australia you could be doing either of those, or incredibly open desert. So a rifle that's suitable for the former without sacrificing barrel length in the latter is probably a priority, more awkward handling be damned.
Just interesting when even the French have decided they just want a glorified AR now.

>>64167100
>more awkward handling
ARfag propaganda.

I don't know why this wasn't a bullpup. I think I read that someone asked them and they said they tried it but it didn't work out but it didn't mention why.

>>64162595
>It didn't matter if it was a 10moa gun because 10moa at fucking 1500m is fucking insane.
Lmao wat. The CEP of a PKM at 1500m is ~150cm and that's before factoring in external factors or the 2.7 second flight time. The PKM is definitely a contender for the greatest GPMG ever made but to have a CEP of 10 inches at 1500 yards would mean that it would be a ~0.65 MOA gun at 100 and that's off by a factor of six.

>>64167106
It's certainly not a big issue or anything. Plus if your force is already training on bullpups and doing fine it's a bit of a moot point.

>>64167108
>I don't know why this wasn't a bullpup
>Showing the bolt going like 10 inches behind the magazine
I wonder why lol

>>64167080
Nobody ever believed a steel GP to be AP LVL IV.
That's true of 7.62, 6.8, or 5.56

>>64167108
Because it would have looked like pic related.

>>64167121
>>64167156
The Steyr ACR also uses a push through action with telescoped ammo and it didn't have that problem.

>>64167176
Maybe pay attention to the webm you posted anon.

>>64167109
t. doesn't understand MoA

>>64166194
Well yeah you’re always kinda fucked if you get ambushed, but if the issue is being outranged, then I think integrating 7.62 assets at the squad or team level would alleviate that more than m14-2
>>64166243
I’m being a little tongue in cheek, but at least in the marine corps, 240a were a battalion level asset (in a weapons platoon for example) and the DMs we had were just m27s with leupold scopes. I guess what I’m getting at is I think integrating MMGs and actual higher caliber DMRs into the platoons, if not squad level, would’ve been a better solution imo

>>64166726
The 6.8 doesn’t beat modern body armor at any range.

>>64166647
There's nothing forward-thinking about the M14. It's just a shittier Garand with a detachable magazine. And when I say shittier, I mean it, because people made actual detachable mag modifications for the M1 that worked better.

>>64167182
The point I was trying to make was that nothing about the action or ammo requires that much reciprocation mass behind the action, yet apparently Textron tested it and decided against it for some reason.

>>64166647
>M14
>Forward thinking
Imagine capturing the STG45 prototypes which were dirt cheap to make, and more effective than battle rifles.
And then just duct taping a magazine to the M1 Garand crudely.
Lol, lmao.
They even went out of their way to deliberately modify MG42's to not be functional, to proclaim superiority over German weapons. You know, as said MG42's were cutting down soldiers like a scythe through wheat in Europe.

>>64167144
>he has no answer
sad.

>>64164686
how are you supposed to charge it with that scope on, daintily tweeze the handle from underneath?

>>64161943 (OP)
designing a weapon system around the "thought" that goat fuckers who dont have artillery or air support will magically get chinese level 4/5 plates
then buying a 90,000 PSI gun that doesnt even go through level 4 plates, because you decided giving everyone a fucking silencer was somehow important

>>64167309
>because you decided giving everyone a fucking silencer was somehow important
The silencer was required because they wanted the barrel to be chode-length.
Of course this meant people would blow their fucking ear-drums out regardless of protection.
So they added a silencer which made the barrel longer.
Wait...

>>64166441
>plastic doesnt dissipate heat
>gun shitty extruded metal SCAR shit and doesnt have any extra ventilation
>get into ambush mag dump 120 rounds in less than 10 minutes
>gun starts cooking off

>>64167319
>plastic doesnt dissipate heat
It doesn't transfer heat either, nigger-kun.
They've tested this shit, plastic cases make less heat in the gun.

>>64167313
All these problems that could have been solved by the bullpup, yet they still refuse to accept the truth.

>>64167313
the asian chode barrel takes a 7mm magnum level cartridge makes marginally barely better than 6.5 mememoor and not even penetrate any plates

>>64167333
Sig (jewish owned business) didn't make a bullpup.
So therefore bullpups were out of the question.
You do as jews command, you understand that, right?

>>64167333
>80,000 PSI ultra magnum next to your face
no thanks

>>64162140
>coldwar
>getting into landwars with foreign colonies of some other country
>funding islamic terrorism
>competent
you and every neo con should be stabbed to death with a rusty piece of asbestos covered rebar from 9/11

>>64167196
I double checked my math and 10 MOA @ 1500m is actually 453cm so my goof overstated the accuracy of the PKM by a factor of 3.

>>64166084
And why wouldn't a first world country with far more resources and technology improve on something that's proven to be effective?

>>64166243
That's part of the problem with the problem. How accurate are enemy PKMs anyway? I don't see what this NGSW does which existing systems can't handle.

>>64167100
We ended up with the Steyr because of two key factors during procurement.
A) The gun tested very well
B) Colt were little bitches and wouldn't let us locally produce M16s while Steyr would let us have the AUG's machining

>>64167343
But the Jews made a really nice bullpup though. This is just Sig being retarded.

>>64167343
Not everything is Jews, anon.
Literally rent free ffs

>>64167473
>cohen

>>64167455
Bullpups are for the chosen.
Golems can use whatever bargain bin slop jewchads throw together for them.

>>64167455
>jews use gun that they refuse to give to goyim
OH I WONDER WHY THEY"D BE DOIN THAT

>>64167505
>rent free

>>64167319
Gun can't get hot if heat never makes it to your chamber retard

>>64167530
>>64167534
Either samefag or idiots in stereo. The Israelis fucking love selling military hardware to people, it's good money and they know they're considered high-grade. Hell, they've already sold Tavor packages to places like fucking Nigeria.

>>64167446
Yeah, and it's been a good rifle for ADF needs. Keeping production local is a must for strategic reasons when you're so isolated from primary allies, we learned that the hard way in the 40's, and clearly there hasn't been anything fundamentally wrong with the platform since it was adopted. I only note it because a lot of countries that also picked bullpups in the era haven't felt the need to stick with the layout in more recent purchases. Clearly the ADF likes them enough to spend more on designing a new one to meet their needs than they would've just getting local production of something else in a conventional layout.

>>64167684
They hate selling GOOD shit to people.
They made America make the piece of shit that is the M249, then they gave themselves the Negev which is just the same gun but good.

>>64167703
>They made America make the piece of shit that is the M249
Can you explain how they made this happen?
>then they gave themselves the Negev which is just the same gun but good
Israel started developing the Negev a year after the US adopted the M249, and took over a decade to get designed, tested, and adopted. What you are looking at as a conspiracy theory is just linear time.

>>64167719
>I-It wasn't the jews it was the uhm...The evil goys!

>>64166266
>break-action kino while still being mag-fed
my dick

>>64167703
This schizo bit stopped being amusing a while ago.

>>64162595
>TLDR: What went wrong is fucking fucktards thinking we are still going to be fighting insurgency wars and not peer-to-peer wars
>we are still going to be fighting insurgency wars
>not peer-to-peer wars
Look Anon:
I fucking hate the chinks and want them bombed to hell and back but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that'll ever happen because if we were to ever get into a war with them, it'll end in a nuke fight.
Best we'll get is fighting either Iran, Venezuela, Mexico, or just sending arms to US friendly countries.

>>64161943 (OP)
There is no excuse for a bad bullpup trigger in 2025. They were so close to winning but they ruined it

>>64167100
The only real reason we got the AUG was cause the local production deal, licence fee and assistance with setting up local production was there, the m16 would have won if they offered even just local production.
Source: My grandad was a RAEME arms tester for the m16 and said it was LEAGUES better than the aug.

I imagine we're still stuck with it because the deal with Styer is still decent enough to warrant it, or because we already have production for it set up there's little to no reason to change since it would also be an extremely radical shift in manual of arms for most of the cunts in the forces, barring the special forces cunts.

>>64168000
They were going up against a rifle that made little in the way of actual changes to the army's precious little AR-15 lineage. It's basically the M14 debacle all over again.

>>64167990
Unlikely. The Chinks want their male population culled and they need something they can use for the Minute of Hate for future generations.

They'll make it as senseless, personal and bloody as possible. Might even start issuing Type 701 rifles and form bayonet charge units.

>>64162579
If it was purely about corruption, the Textron gun would have won.
The NGSW program was started for Textron as a way to finally get the LSAT adopted.

>>64163625
Given that Textron failed so badly they dropped out before testing even completed, the LSAT was probably just not as good as people thought it was. Not tested as harshly by enough people.

>>64168276
Textron dropped out around the same time that GD gave their share of the program to TV/LoneStar (pretty much qualifies as dropping out). Most likely, both GD and TXT abandoned the program because the Army signaled that they were going to choose Sig no matter what.

>>64162167
Yeah, that's literally the entire military industrial complex.

>>64167212
Yeah, USMC squads are certainly big enough for it. The Army needs bigger squads too imo.
A 7.62 MG is too useful to pass up most of the time, but DMs on a squad level are probably more theatre-dependent.

>>64161943 (OP)
the modern military industrial complex is one preselected winner and 3-4 "competitors" who are controlled opposition who keep up the ruse of a fair contract competition

>>64166455
You lack any real concept of how heat transfer occurs. Polymer is a better insulator. Therefore the fire it contains doesn’t transfer its heat through to the outside wall into the chamber as fast as a metal case would. Therefore it keeps the chamber cooler as the heat is ejected with the casing

>>64168443
Polymer also protects from cookoff in either direction: the chamber won't heat up as much due to both insulation and the fact that the chamber and barrel are two separate assemblies, and what little heat builds up in the chamber won't be conducted to the propellant as quickly.

>>64168482
The separate assemblies thing is only in the case of CT. GD/TV used a conventional action.

>>64162595
>We got completely btfo by a fucking LMG, the PKM. It didn't matter if it was a 10moa gun because 10moa at fucking 1500m is fucking insane.
>Lmao wat. The CEP of a PKM at 1500m is ~150cm
PKM short burst (average 5 rds) groups (R100):
bipod 800 meters 28 MOA
bipod 1500 meters 53 MOA
tripod locked trunnions 800 meters 20 MOA
tripod locked trunnions 1500 meters 40 MOA

>>64169366
Bonus material.
Data from Soviet trials of RPK-74 prototype vs PK. Fire from bipod. Highlighted is fire at 800 meters vs recoiless gun crew target (pic).
Hit probability for RPK-74 0.202 for PK 0.139.
So much for boomers "Afghanistan xperience" scare
>MUH PK 1500 meters overmatch!
>5.56 is useless!

>>64166666
Nice digits, Satan

all spear haters are just dudes who wanted the bullpup to win

>>64167703
>They made America make the piece of shit that is the M249
???????????????????????

>>64169421
i mean.... yes

>>64161943 (OP)
Why not issue a squad with mostly 16" barrel M4s, and have a couple DMRs which can just be AR-10s chambered in 6.5? Any targets out past 1000 yards are just going to get blasted by artillery, right?

>>64166948
This but unironically.

>>64161943 (OP)
The textron rifle should have been a bullpup like the Steyr ACR is was based on.
https://youtu.be/QA71k2_doJc&t=196

>>64169524
Textron fake telescopic boondoggle should die it makes no sense.

The older LSAT rifles fed backwards, so it ejected right over the trigger instead of ahead of the magazine. No idea why that didn't work with the 6.8 version.

>>64169736
It could be they wanted to move the ejection port further away from the chamber to avoid debris ingressing through there

>>64169615
So you're the pseudotelescoped schizo? Big fan

>>64167108
surely there was a better way to point the ejection port than having it on the side like that

>>64169736
Possibly insufficient recoil control in a rifle caliber chambering.

>>64167121
>bolt
Aktschually it's the carrier assembly. What does it carry, you might ask? No idea, the firing pin maybe. But the gun doesn't have a true bolt, which is pretty cool.
>>64170239
The LSAT carbine was chambered in a 5.56x45mm -- presumably M855A1 -- equivalent. It's just that 5.56 CT is about as long as a 5.7 or .30 carbine cartridge.

>>64161943 (OP)
>Bullpups
Armpit reloads, lol.

>>64170284
Damn, 5.56 CT in a 30 round mag is probably under 400 grams. They should just keep at it until they make this shit work.

>>64169421
>all spear haters wanted the best rifle to win

>>64170339
There were a lot of figures thrown around for how much weight reduction this really achieves for 5.56, but I've seen 42%, 33% here, and calculated 40% from a product sheet.
>They should just keep at it until they make this shit work.
They did make it work! They just couldn't sell it. Just our faggy world.

>>64169736
Kori Phillips, LSAT program officer, I think regarding this thing:
>We started with a bunch of different concepts for the carbine’s chamber mechanism, like rotating, translating, revolving, and eventually we settled on a rising chamber design. It turned out to be the simplest of all of them. This was our second effort at a carbine, actually. The first one, which you’ve seen, was a 5.56mm CT with a rising chamber, too. The problem with that one was, if you wanted to take the magazine out of your gun and unload your weapon, all the sudden we couldn’t do that. The way the mechanism was set up, you couldn’t remove the magazine until the gun was empty, things like that. That was around the time that program (LSAT) was wrapping up, so we took that carbine and put it on the shelf, and in this new contract that got awarded two years ago. We pulled it off the shelf, looked at some different mechanisms, and ended up back at a rising chamber, but with a different layout. So now, operationally there’s no more issues with taking the magazine out, it works pretty normally. There are still some complications. From a personal standpoint, I fought long and hard to make it a belt-fed carbine, the links weigh practically nothing, and it helps simplify things, but the users were dead set against that.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/18/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-2-ammunition-technical-discussion-contd/
I'm not sure what she meant by not being able to take out the magazine until the gun was empty. Maybe they couldn't put in a clearing rod for some reason?
Also, the belt thing reminds me of the ARES-Olin.

>>64170339
Imagine mag in grip 556 pistols.

>>64169615
>>64169971
Textron's ammo is indeed 'fake telescopic' in a sense, but this allows much more efficient use of propellant, vastly superior bullet seating and stabilization, and lets you make the cases slimmer. They did actually prototype a cartridge with propellant in front of the cannelure initially, but quickly dropped it.

>>64170462
>that primer location
Those cheeky fucking Krauts.

why is it so difficult to make a good service rifle?
t. clueless

>>64170496
It's hard to make a good anything. But in NGSW's case it's because there's an eternal conflict between clueless people who think battle rifles (and other scams) are a good idea and people who make guns for grunts to shoot, and unfortunately the former group seems to populate a majority of the decision making stratum. It's like the sand wars; you won't get a good result if you don't even have a specific goal in mind or if your goal is extremely hazy and intangible, like 'overmatch' in this case.
NGSW was also affected by a certain Luddism that old people tend to exhibit as well as a cultural aversion to some firearm form factors, and that's not to mention corruption. These factors affect decision making in peacetime more than they do when the decisions actually matter for a variety of reasons.

Engineering-wise, though, it's because guns are precision instruments that have to perfectly time chambering and ejection to the millisecond, seat tiny rims into extractors, et cetera, every single time, while also routinely sustaining tens of thousands of pounds of pressure. And to make good service rifles, they would have to keep being able to this after and while being thrown around, having all sorts of shit and grit inside of them, and being figuratively sodomized by a dozen guys or so over years before being handed to someone else after finally getting oiled for the first time.

>>64163470
This guy found the one and only clip of a guy holding any of the NGSW prototypes without doing the reddit clamp, and guess what, his hand still isn't blocking the ejection port.

>>64170496
Its trivial.
You just have to make something reliable, light weight, cheap, easy to service, accurate, modular, future-proofed, revolutionary, familiar, and attractive.
Just a simple solve for X, of course.

>>64170645
>being figuratively sodomized by a dozen guys or so over years before being handed to someone else after finally getting oiled for the first time.

In my experience the US military overcleans rifles to a stupid degree. It was not uncommon to see steel dental picks brought out to scrap carbon out of the chamber of an M4. This was a "life hack" sometimes taught by SNCOs. People cared more about having a spotless rifle (because arms room retards also demanded it) than not scraping the shit out of the inside of their rifle.
I've gone to ranges where I had my rifle perfectly cleaned and oiled just right when some SNCO dingus with a squirt bottle full of oil would force people to open their bolts while they absolutely hosed the inside with oil.

>NGSW stuff
Yup. The NGSW was pushed by people who saw an opportunity to misrepresent how engagements worked, and by using Afghanistan cherrypick data about intermediate cartridges being less successful at the extreme ranges of the very particular environment in certain situations. This had already been solved by the DMR program (and I think DMRs should be standard in TO&E at the platoon level just to solve this small gap but anyway) and at engagements inside extreme ranges the 5.56mm worked fine. But industry shills preyed on the outlier data and the fuddlore addled brains of the people in command to get the NGSW spun up. Once Afghanistan died down and extreme range was no longer on everyone's mind, the NGSW justification changed to fear mongering about Chinese body armor. We are dealing with dinosaurs in institutions who still think 5.56mm was a mistake.

>>64161943 (OP)
Nothing, they request new service rifles they have no interest in adopting to maintain the capability for when they actually do want a service rifle.
This is done all the time because the free market would fire everyone that knows how to make small arms if there wasn't any requests for them for a decade and then be unable to make them when they are needed.

>>64170732
Should have just gone with the Spear Lt with the 16 inch barrel.

Only good thing Sig has ever made, better than the HK416

>>64170808
>Should have just gone with the Spear Lt
Yes
>with the 16 inch barrel
Fuck no

If you want a 16", there's nothing the MCX will do for you that an AR can't.
12.5" and under + can (+ multicaliber) is where MCX shines.

>>64170821
Sorry I like my 5.56 at or close to 3k fps.

>>64170834
Then get an AR

>>64166753
>>64166974
>can't accept basic reality
ARetards need permabanned.

>>64167309
>because you decided giving everyone a fucking silencer was somehow important
it is important desu. Suppressors are mandatory at this point. Cans will be as uniquitous as select fire pretty soon.

>>64170913
I'm kind of surprised none of them were integrally silenced tbdesu. Was it a requirement to be removable?

>>64166855
benelli-beretta
they are owned by the same cinoany if i recall correctly
also sako

>>64166855
Kalashnikov Concern

>>64166671
F-35 worked out in the sense that DOD eventually got a shitload of jets at a time they seemed to want a shitload of jets, but when no two F-35s are internally identical and the DOD keeps accepting them despite being built wrong, you gotta question what "working out" really means.

>>64170931
Wouldn't surprise me if it was, tho desu why would you want it to be integrally suppresssed? Isn't that just adding weight and complexity to the rifle? With a detachable system you can just take the thing off if you don't need/want it.
More importantly you have more control over the gas system with a detachable suppressor

>>64170851
Cope and seethe. You're trying to justify your shitty purchase by claiming the FAL was worse when the only thing the M14 beats the FAL at is weight and ability to waste US taxpayer dollars, and I am saying that as a retard who used to main the M14 in an online FPS.

>>64162533
Nah. XM1186 out of a 16” barrel is only 3100-3150 FPS. 4 more inches of barrel isn’t likely to get you over 3400 FPS.

It also won’t have any real error margin or even be able to penetrate many Level IV plates at all. As it stands XM1186 is barely better than M80A1 out of the same barrel length and seemingly worse at the same velocity. You’ll probably get AP performance approximately on the level of M80A1 out of a ~24” barrel, or NIJ M2 AP at the muzzle if we’re being generous.

>>64171031
How would it add weight? It removes the weight of the attachment system if nothing else. The NGSW isn't intended to ever be used without the suppressor.

>>64165182
>>64165225
>>64165254
If if’s not a UHMWPE plate, then they don’t even seem to have met the Level III requirement. Effectiveness of XM1186 against some Level III plates appears marginal within 100m.

>>64167568
>no denial
Post nose

>>64171105
They reduced the target velocity and pressure from 100k PSI a while back. It was originally supposed to be pushing muzzle energy in excess of .300 winmag.
I think the actual "target" was GA special type plates actually used by the PLA, rated for 7.62x54R API and comparable in protection to the LTC 28595 if you're familiar with that. This is well below M2AP and really means you just have to beat M80A1 / B-32 API.
>>64171132
Emphasis on "some" my friend. The Hesco 3814 (7.62x51 M61 AP), LTC 19513 (M855A1), Highcom 3S9M (B-32 API), and Hesco 3810 (M855) are all Level III but their real performance levels are wildly different.
If they're using garage steel or PE plates as a target, then XM1186 is in great shape. If they're using something more serious like a Militech SiC RF2 we might be in trouble, because that trounces M855A1 very consistently going off third party tests - meaning XM1186 (itself a larger M855A1, basically) is going to be tight beyond moderate standoff.

Overall I think they fucked up and the XM7 will not meet AP requirements, even the downgraded ones. If China is going to roll plates they will force every concern from Militech to Aholdtech to Linry to stop export and pump out as many Level IVs as they can. If the plates are substandard people will get disappeared. China has the capacity to pump out millions of Alumina or SiC Level IV plates if they so choose. If they want to make something like an XSAPI, that's doable. XSAPIs are 2007 tech.

>>64171342
> If China is going to roll plates
China bought their first million Level IV plate sets almost a decade ago.

>>64171342
None of them were ever 100k PSI. Sig has never claimed more than 80k PSI for their hybrid case technology, True Velocity says their ammo is good for the same pressure as brass case .308, and Textron said that pressures north of 100k are possible with their fully supported cases but never said that they were actually using those pressures. It's shooting the same (government provided) bullet at the same (program required) speed as the Sig, and the barrel doesn't look significantly shorter, so it's probably around the same pressure.

>>64171374
Correct, but...

1. As seen with Russia being fresh out of plates, realistically they need more for any protracted conflict. They're 2.2 million active, 0.51 million reserve. They can probably mobilize up to 5-7 million with conscription.
2. Chinese body armor has significantly improved in quality since 2016 (compare Militech then to Militech now, for example, or Longfri then vs now) and they would be wise to replace older stocks. Also, for what it's worth, they have patented the same TiB2-SiC ceramic as the Adept Colossus and therefore are in a position to manufacture 7-8lb "Fat Colossus" plates rated to 6.8 XM1184 if they so choose. They're behind only in polyethylene and boron carbide versus American manufacturers. They have parity with Alumina and normal SiC.

>>64171390
100k was very early on in the process, it got dropped to 80k PSI for the reasons you stated and more. Unfortunately the sources I had have been scrubbed.
Me thinks they're trying to memory hole the NGSW program's failures to meet the program.

>>64166202
US DOD is taking the intellectual property rights and right to repair very serious. Likely what decided the NGAD contract.

>>64171400
You're probably looking at stuff from LSAT development prior to NGSW, or maybe some outside speculation. NGSW never specified a pressure, just a projectile and a velocity. Out of 8 entrants, Textron is the only one that could even theoretically hit that kind of pressure.

>>64168269
Technically, NGSAR was the Textron shoo-in program. Then it got merged with ICSR to make NGSW.

>>64171400
>100k was very early on in the process
No, it wasn't. Sig's round was always around 80k, then it got dropped to around 70k a year or so back. Something to do with the penetrator in one of the bullet designs getting pushed off center at that pressure.

>>64171427
>>64171467
Under the circumstances I agree, probably LSAT stuff. Fair enough!

>>64171467
Sig just said they reduced the pressure "because of accuracy." Some random anons have speculated that it has something to do with actual dispersion, but that seems unlikely to me since their .277 match ammo is still 80k. My guess is that's a matter of controllability in full auto. I'm sure someone here has the webm of the girl leaning into it at a 45 degree angle and still nearly tipping over. That was with the crippled ammo.

>>64162828
Sig’s hybrid case is not what people don’t like about the NGSW program and the M7

>>64170931
Suppressor is wearable item.

>>64166266
God, mag-fed grenade launchers are so fucking cool

>>64171504
I heard from an anon that it had to do with idiosyncrasies of the bullet’s construction, that it wasn’t able to withstand the extreme acceleration. The tip was moving and digging into the copper (or whatever material it is) base

>>64171785
Yeah, I've seen that too and I'm 95% that guy is talking out of his ass. M80A1 is exactly the same construction and doesn't have that problem.

>>64171802
I’d be inclined to say the same thing, but I’m just not sure. If the m80a1 and 6.8 have the same velocity, the 6.8 is subject to greater acceleration because it must get to this velocity in a shorter (13”) barrel. Also, the L:D of the 6.8 is greater, meaning the steel penetrator must be longer as well, so more sectional density pushing back on the copper base. There may be other variables too, like twist rate.

>>64171765
At 70k psi, so are barrels.

>>64168080
>they can use for the Minute of Hate for future generations
I mean we're 80 years on from WW2 and random schizo chinks are still trying to stab random Japanese children and making vacations out of going to Japan just to be obnoxious and shit up the place as a form of cultural revenge. They will keep digging up random photo albums from the Manchurian plague or Jinan Incident and keep passing them off as Japanese war crimes for the next thousand years.

>>64161943 (OP)
>the bullpup better
you're a zero real life guy

>>64171843
It gets more than half of that velocity in the first inch, the actual difference in acceleration is negligible.

>>64171850
And it does make sense to make barrel easily replaceable (well AR-15 already has such barrels). An dit makes sense to make flash hider detachable so if you bend it you can replace just it. No entire barrel assembly.

>>64171946
Peak acceleration is exactly proportional to the max pressure.

>>64163625
LSAT was developed using stock 5.56 and 7.62 bullets with normal pressures and muzzle velocities. It was the switch to a heavy 6.8 bullet that messed everything up; and then on top of that, there was the mysterious pull-out from the competition that has never really been explained.

The correct solution would have been a lightweight 5-6mm LSAT cartridge for shorter ranges plus a guided munition for longer ranges. But that wasn't acceptable to the generals in charge.

>>64172037
>was the switch to a heavy 6.8 bullet
6.8 GPs aren't heavy for their caliber.
But It has long ogive that wasn't previously present in American military calibers. Such bullets push limits of inbore engraving and stabilisation, they can more easily engrave at an angle that very negatively affects accuracy.
Long free bore plus misaligned moving chamber of the Textron gun increase possibility of this problem happen.

>>64172154
fuckin kek

>>64170949
Russians aren't European dipshit

>>64164686
There is another...

>>64172154
>uncle mohammed's 150kpsi 14mm APFSDS electrothermal jezail (optical sights not included)
kek
with a canister round for FPV defense of course

>>64172037
The pullout was related to everyone but SIG wanting to keep repair work to themselves for R&D use like with GD and the Strykers. Thing is army REALLY didn't like that when we wanted to start adding RPG cages and shit and GD told us we can't weld shit to THEIR vehicles.

>>64173790
>>64173808
These are just mockups. No general in Australia has any intention of ditching 5.56mm for .277 Sig Furry.

>>64172017
Nope.
F=mass*acceleration
F=pressure*area

>>64161943 (OP)
We must dismember SIG. Then our small arms procurement system can heal

>>64163583
>bullpup
The system most countries that adopted it moved on from to conventional configurations? Yeah, it must be so much better

>>64172154
kek

SIG's one good product.

>>64174288
Fuck sig

>>64167319
It's amazing how people still think the problem with caseless ammo (powder burns in contact with chamber, no casing to extract heat) is also present in polymer ammo (acts as insulator, trapping heat before it reaches the chamber)

>>64174389
I’m convinced that the caseless ammo “””problems””” could be solved fairly easily using modern materials science.

>>64174427
Think of all those union ammo jobs held by boomers anon....

>>64174427
Textron spent a lot of time and money trying before they settled on cased telescoped for the LSAT program.

>>64174480
IIRC a lot of that time was spent reverse engineering Dynamit Nobel's formula for the G11 cause the info Textron bought was incomplete.

>>64174427
Yes, but also no. A lot of it would depend on new propellants, which would be future materials science. There's not a ton of research directed that way, and the list of requirements for a good caseless propellant is very long. It needs to be rigid and mechanically robust to the sort of abuse small arms are treated to, not just being dropped or having mags jammed in roughly, but also having rounds stripped from the magazine and vibrations from recoil and the magazine spring. It needs to work the same in hot and cold and dry and damp environments. It needs to not be toxic or generate toxic fumes or excessive smoke. It needs to insensitive to shock and static, and inert to common chemicals including water. It needs to deflagrate at speeds fast enough that its performance is at least equal to black powder, and preferably modern smokeless powder, but not so fast that the pressure can't be controlled by existing barrel materials. It needs to not cause corrosion in the bullets or primer cups when stored for a long time, or in the barrel or bolt in conjunction with extreme heat and pressure. And this is just scratching the surface.

It's far, far easier to just split those requirements into two, maybe three separate materials that each only need to meet a subset of all of those requirements. And even once you get all of that done, you need to consider the design of the weapon firing it. A big advantage of caseless cartridges is that they can actually simplify gun design by removing the need for extraction. But if you were to get rid of the extraction port entirely, you wouldn't be able to clear the weapon without firing it. So in the end you get a gun design that would be easily adapted to cased telescopic ammo that's already possible to mass produce affordably that can exceed the capability of existing cartridge construction and come very close to meeting the advantages of caseless ammo where it doesn't exceed it.

>>64174510
Because Dynamit Nobel was a clownshow. Their process involved setting 5 gallon buckets of explosives out uncovered for a week to let the VOCs evaporate out. There were also all sorts of process changes during its development that no one ever bothered to write down

>>64174642
source...?

>>64174733
This interview mentions it in passing:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/11/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-1-program-history-ammunition-technical-discussion/

There was also an ACR-era article about Dynamit Nobel somewhere that I can't find right now that had a couple more tidbits. The gist of it was that they were making super cool future explodey stuff in artisanal quantities and when it inevitably catches on because it's so awesome and obviously better than everything else, they would be building huge factories to supply the whole world with it.

>>64168443
>You lack any real concept of how heat transfer occurs. Polymer is a better insulator. Therefore the fire it contains doesn’t transfer its heat through to the outside wall into the chamber as fast as a metal case would.
So the heat just disappears and doesn't transfer to the barrel, huh?
Wow you should really tell the army about your original research.

>>64174827
The heat stays on the inside of the cartridge and gets ejected. With brass cases, less heat stays on the inside of the cartridge and gets ejected. With caseless, there's nothing insulating the chamber at all so none of the heat is removed with the case.

>>64161943 (OP)
Real talk, Textron failed the bid because their assault rifle was ass. Bretta failed because their light machine gun was just a barrel swap for a medium machine gun.
Sig just won by default.

>>64174834
>The heat stays on the inside of the cartridge and gets ejected.
lmao

>>64166113
pic rel

>>64174827
Some of it stays as hot gas in the case or heats up the case, but most of it transfers to the barrel. The chamber doesn't contribute significantly to keeping the barrel cool, and a cooler chamber means no cookoff. Cookoff will always be a bigger concern than barrels heating up.

>>64174883
You can't be serious.

>>64174897
I'm serious about you having to get your GED, anon.

>>64174827
The heat a brass case "extracts" from the gun is heat it leached from the burning powder. Polymer steals less heat, so more stays in the burning powder and leaves as hot gas. This results in a more complete powder burn, which means you can get higher velocity from the same amount of powder

>>64174883
>Cookoff will always be a bigger concern than barrels heating up
You need the barrel to heat up to get a cook-off, anon. Think.

>>64174906
Maybe NASA will be interested to hear your research into making waste heat vanish from a system without using a heat sink.

>>64174925
He has hold of materials the rest of mankind doesn't have evidently

>>64174838
Textrons was the best of the three

>>64174916
I urge you to examine the subtle differences between the chamber, the barrel throat, and the rest of the barrel, and think about how that relates to Textron's CT design.
>>64174925
That has nothing to do what I said. Work on your reading comprehension.

>>64174863
Most of the heat is ejected out the muzzle, same as it is with any other cartridge. That heat isn't dissipated into the chamber during firing and before extraction does not mean it necessarily enters the system elsewhere, or brass cases would be doing the same thing

>>64174944
>barrel throat
the breech rather

>>64174928
Engines do the same thing, that's the whole point of hemis. Equal energy in with less waste heat out necessarily means more efficient work

>>64174945
You sound like you asked ChatGPT, and don't actually know what you're talking about.

>>64174955
Your understanding is so terrible that you’d actually get closer by asking ChatGPT.
Spelling it out for you in a way you might understand:
>chamber hot BAD
>barrel hot OK
>normal gun; barrel heat up and chamber heat up almost as much
>CT gun chamber not part of barrel
>CT gun; barrel heats up a little bit more but chamber no heat up

>>64174953
Yeah lets encase our engine cylinders in polymer.
You're so smart anon.
And you definitely didn't just ask ChatGPT, to regurgitate marketing gibberish.

>>64174999
>car analogy

>>64174838
Textron and GD didn't even make it to the competition because of the terms they wanted. It was just going to be a coronation for Sig before TV took over from GD and demanded that the Army go ahead with the full competition.

>>64175008
...You're the one who made a car analogy first.
Welp.
I guess I've been trolled.
nj
cya

sorry nvm, retarded as you are, you weren't the first one to make the analogy

nice

>>64174955
>you sound like you asked chatgpt
Terminal brain rot

>>64174999
Nigger you're fucking retarded, it's the thermodynamic principle, I didn't suggest engines should be polymer

>>64175027
At the heart of it, assuming most of the gas is evacuated into the barrel and beyond (or that the energy in the spent case is negligible), that energy would still go somewhere and most of it would end up heating up the barrel a little bit more. Either way, it doesn't affect the barrel all that much, but the chamber really feels the difference.

>>64175071
Correct, the gas will be hotter and will therefore heat the barrel a little more, but not by much because it spends fractions of a fraction of a second under pressure and inside of the barrel. There just isn't much time to transfer heat to it. Certainly compared to the case, which comparitively spends orders of magnitude times longer in contact with the chamber

>>64174838
The project asking for both a LMG and a rifle at the same time was retarded. They should've put out a tender for the ammunition FIRST before getting into weapons.

>>64174944
No, you're claiming something that defies thermodynamics and doubling down on it. You're being retarded

>>64175275
Nta but what part defies thermodynamics? Cook off results from heat in the chamber, the temperature of the barrel is not relevant (though is of course related since they are attached to each other in conventional firearms) but the chamber and barrel of the textron rifle are not attached to each other conventionally

>>64175348
To be honest I am drunk and I will need until tomorrow to give a decent response

>>64174939
It failed accuracy and was only gun that kabbomed in the final trials.
Interestingly enough Steyr ACR during ACR trials was one of the most non accurate guns there and it's too was only gun that kabbomed in finals.

>>64175636
>kabbomed in the final trials
There's still no evidence for this.

>Interestingly enough Steyr ACR during ACR trials was one of the most non accurate guns there and it's too was only gun that kabbomed in finals.
The M16 was the most accurate gun in the ACR trials, and the Steyr didn't explode. There were concerns about the HK exploding, though.

>>64174427
Caseless is retarded trap by Germans and their stupid G11. It has bazillion problems
But most importantly you can get 90% of caseless weight saving (or even the same because internal ballistics but that's complex) by going COMBUSTIBLE CASE with metal base. It's eliminates most of the problems.
And it actually works and adopted and battle proven. See 120mm NATO tank gun.
Even more retarded Russians successfully use 125mm combustible case too, that telling how this tech is actually easy and matured for real life.

Fuck Germans and their G11 who steered advanced cartridge thinking into retarded caseless meme. Including Textron who steered into retarded telescopic case boondoggle but trying to copy G11 first.

>>64175644
>the Steyr didn't explode
Read report.

>>64175650
>Cracked plastic buttstocks
>Problem was resolved before final testing began
Nice "kabbomed in finals" you've got there.

>>64175647
Combustible cases are pretty fragile IIRC.

>>64162595
>we
Come on, man

>>64175071
>literally can't comprehend the difference between conduction and convection

>>64175636
Where was either of those things mentioned, let alone verified

>>64161943 (OP)
I'm against polymer cases on principle, because the last thing we need is more microplastics. Ammunition weight is irrelevant if we're all chemically castrated and incapable of fighting a war in the first place.

>>64175710
>https://www.psicorp.com/products/energetics/combustible-cartridge-cases-small-arms/
You're right. It's already proven possible in small arms too.

You could use a slight taper on the combustible section to maximize volume while keeping the propellant from touching the magazine walls directly, while using the base cap for touching them to control feeding.

>>64161943 (OP)
>What went wrong?
Pretty much everything, NGSW is conceptually retarded, and then Sig managed to win the contract in spite of executing this very awful concept in perhaps the dumbest way imaginable.

>>64162592
The Bundeswehr outright did not want the G11 as it was, Reunification was an excellent excuse to bail on a project they had lost confidence in.

>>64165763
Sometimes, new ideas are simply bad. Development for the sake of development isn't progress, you have to actually come up with something that's good and genuinely better.

Pic related is the so called "Baseball Grenade," the concept was that obviously an American soldier would know how to throw a baseball, so it would be a better grenade. In practice, they were actually much worse, because they were harder to handle and soldiers were actually more likely to experience fumbles and accidents than with the Mk.2 'Pineapple' grenade of the time.
That didn't mean we stuck with Mk.2s forever, it just meant that fully spherical hand grenades were bad idea, and we went different routes for future hand grenade development.

Back to caseless cartridges.
Advantages:
>potentially weighs less
>easier to make an action which cycles really fast

Disadvantages:
>weak to ambient moisture
>fragility, does not tolerate rough handling well, subtle wear from handling can in extension affect consistency and thus accuracy
>no obturation at all, leading to problems such as the one anon brought up
>not made to extract through its regular cycle, so clearing malfunctions easily gets extra annoying as it would need to be an extra mechanical step or mechanism
>requires a battery for ignition

There are much better concepts for making better cartridges, such as figuring out a good modern synthetic/polymer casing. Not only is that backwards compatible so existing arms reap those rewards, it's already done extremely well in lots of testing.

>>64162595
>mildly inconvenient harassing fire
>"BTFO"

>>64178840
>requires a battery for ignition
The G11 used normal impact primers. Electronic ignition is tricky because you need to do it in a way that you can't accidentally set off a stack of primers with static.

>>64178855
Fair, but it still leaves the rest of the drawbacks.

>>64174276
Barrel length is more critical to the goals of the NGSW, so making the rifle a bullpup makes much more sense. You don't need 80000psi of chamber pressure if you can just load the cartridge for a long barrel.

>>64166080
I honestly don't think we're going to move away from 5.56mm any time soon, it's pretty much the ideal infantry rifle cartridge with our level of technology, and the AR15 is already a very good rifle for it, with shitloads of industrial and institutional backing behind it.

We might start doing a plastic case for 5.56mm, and maybe we can devise a better load for it. Instead of M855A1, maybe something akin to Mk.262 Mod. 1 but with a hardened steel core inside of it, along with an improved M4A2 of some kind.

>>64178923
Would have been interesting if Textron went balls out and showed up with a 100,000 PSI bullpup with a 24" barrel and 29" OAL. Maybe then it could actually penetrate armor.

>>64167108
wait the Textron rifle was fucking single-stack?

>>64179008
No, that animation was made by some twitter rando based of the patent drawings. I guess they were so focused on the action they didn't overlooked getting the magazine right.

>>64162595
>TLDR: What went wrong is fucking fucktards thinking we are still going to be fighting insurgency wars and not peer-to-peer wars
Why not both?

>>64161943 (OP)
>the media
What fucking news outlet is even talking about this shit? Blogs, twitter, and click bait sites staffed entirely by robots are not fucking news.

>>64175647
I wish to preface this post by denouncing the grifter Joseph Smith and the degenerate Paul Elden Kingston.
Combustible case solves no such issues for small arms. The only 'benefit' it has is allowing you to use almost-caseless cartridges in conventional actions. Conventional actions fucking suck, particularly for combustible case as you have gas leaking everywhere and fouling up everything. Combustible case designs do not solve cookoff/chamber heat or fragility issues, or anything else really. They would be less accurate because the propellant has to be formed in the shape of the breech, etc.

>>64175456
I hope you've sobered up then. I was talking about polymer cased cartridges, and not caseless, if that wasn't clear.

>>64175650
You get called out every time you bring this shit up, and every time you hope the other anon forgets to reply to you.

>>64178840
With today's technology, I do not endorse caseless for infantry rifles, I favor polymer cased telescoped. I think caseless will be better suited for handguns and the like in the near future, mostly for the reasons you mention. To address your individual points:
>potentially weighs less
Always weighs less and caseless cartridges are much, much smaller.
>weak to ambient moisture
>fragility
True. Could be fixed in the future with some sort of combustible external binder material.
>obturation
True. The guns may have to be more complex.
>not made to extract
True, but it's not a very major concern. In a smaller gun, you could legitimately just include a small clearing rod.
>requires a battery for ignition
Not in the case of the G11, but I don't think this is a big negative in many cases. I think electronic firing is a great technology.
also, add
>cookoff
probably the most important problem.

>>64179008
IIRC it was double-to-single stack like a pistol magazine.
>>64179108
Iraq was mostly fought against insurgencies and it was almost all urban combat. It's mostly just Afghanistan and other arid mountainous areas.

>>64167109
1500m is about 1650 yards. 10 MOA at that range is a 165 inch (roughly 14 feet) circle.

>>64167176
The Steyr ACR didn't need to mitigate recoil because it was shooting flechettes with 5.56 levels of energy. The Textron NGSW is shooting full caliber bullets with 7.62 levels of energy.

.277 Fury is just the return of .280 Bri'ish.
>Hyped up compromise round promising to give big performance in a small package motivated to some extent by "muh body armor"
>Has to be gimped to provide manageable FA recoil while still being heavier and bulkier than intermediate cartridges and is otherwise a slight improvement over existing full-power rounds

Just fucking stick with 5.56 NATO until CT 6.8 is ready to come out of the oven or there's a caseless solution, jesus christ.

>>64167109
Is CEP for a gun also the radius of 50% hit probability? Or is it a different percent? If it’s 50%, the gun can be >1.5MOA and still have a CEP of 10” at 1500yds cause the diameter that contains all shots will be something more like >25”

>>64180103
u wot, 280 bongish is only intended to be effective at 300 meters, and this is easily done with its weak low recoil loadings.
its the Americans that insisted on having 30.06 levels of performance, only to end up with a mouse gun calibre.

>>64179334
Cookoff was a problem which H&K and Dynamit Nobel actually solved, which is why I didn't bring it up in my post. They change the formula to increase the ignition temperature of the compound.

I really just don't see the point in caseless even for pistols, having a case is just way too practical for a firearm for all kinds of reasons, so partially or fully synthetic casings I think is a much more sensible development than fully caseless.
Say that you could make a synthetic 9mm Parabellum casing out of, perhaps, some manner of hardened starch reinforced with processed hemp fibers (I'm no materials scientist or anything, but that'd be an interesting avenue to look at IMO), and it could mimic the tensile strength of a brass casing, as well as its obturative properties, that could be a really big advancement.
Again, if this type of stuff can just be used in existing guns with little issue, that would be amazing.

Next, figure out an inexpensive but reliable replacement for the lead styphnate formulas still used in primers and priming compound. The fumes from discharged primers is probably the biggest consistent source of lead exposure from shooting firearms (more so than projectiles), that would be better for the health of soldiers and sportsmen alike. It would need to be at least as cheap and available as lead styphnate though.
Lead in projectiles can stay, that's only an appreciable issue for hunting in wetlands.