Thread 64482560

As Ukr keeps hitting substations in russia along refinerys, question arises - is this strategy actually viable?
In a war is it even worth it throwing drones, cruise missiles and sabotages against power grid? Or is it all just easily repairable and/or power just reroutable and besides a shortterm tactical effect(supply issues when using electric trains for example) there is no real strategic damage. This is assuming that no-one is targeting nuclear powerplants.

Can you actually damage a medium sized country-s power grid to a point of practical collapse with reasonable amount of firepower?

>>64482560 (OP)
You know that even in the actually developed world there's a lead time of like two years for transformers, right? Majority of transformers are custom as well due to where and how they function, they're not just uniform building blocks. And yeah you can reroute, but only so far and only so much before you run into other issues. Or until your network gets severed.

>>64482679
>Majority of transformers are custom
While this is often claimed, it is not in fact true. There are a lot (thousands) of transformer models out there, some of which are only installed in a few hundred places, but that is a long way from being "custom". And interestingly the more developed the country, the more models of transformer tend to be in use. Poor countries will just use whatever they've got in stock even if it's massively oversized and inefficient.

>>64482679
>You know that even in the actually developed world there's a lead time of like two years for transformers, right?

LMAO, thats just "nato" speed

in Russia they probably make 100's of those a day and set them out to rot in a field for fun

>>64482560 (OP)
Define practical collapse.

>>64482560 (OP)
>Can you actually damage a medium sized country-s power grid to a point of practical collapse with reasonable amount of firepower?
the US bomber survey of WW2 found out that they had drastically underestimated how much damage they could have done to german electrical production and overestimated german ability to repair damage to their grid
so, in retrospect, hitting german energy distribution might have been even more effective at crippling their industry than attacking mechanical production

it was identified as the second largest missed opportunity of the bombing campaign, second only to bombing their oil refineries at an earlier date

>Or is it all just easily repairable and/or power just reroutable and besides a shortterm tactical effect
the most damage is caused by the cascading failures even a temporary outage causes
even if you can fix the grid quickly, even a single hour of no power can cause a domino effect of failure

>>64482560 (OP)
>Can you actually damage a medium sized country-s power grid to a point of practical collapse with reasonable amount of firepower?
You can for sure do that. In Russia's case, it seems more likely that the Ukrainians can pull it off simply because so much of their shit is in disrepair from the start.

>>64482560 (OP)
>Moreover, Moscow is a very complex region and has the most complex electrical schemata, or "copper board", as it is known by those in the business. It is the only region in which there has been no automatic shut-off system installed since the fall of the Soviet Union.
If this information is current, then it's only a matter of time before their grid fails.

>>64482560 (OP)
Very long term timeline for it to effect war production for you to see it hit battlefield supply. Very effective medium term to impact morale in select situations. Russia's situation is unique with the whole Moscow elite and enslaved federated steppe mystery meat empire thing. Making the elites feel the war in a very tangible way might help in the medium and short term. Especially with the Russian attempts at doing the same to Ukraine and >muh freezing winter memes coming to nothing. A sweet irony for Ukraine to actually make it work.

Also Russia's AD is effectively nonexistent. It's completely concentrated around Moscow and St Petersburg. And even that is thirdie tier slop. There's no reason not to target Russia's electrical grid given their dogshit slavic warlord economy and crap AD. A few drones here and there can damage their eco out very significantly, eventually. Chinese replacement parts may or may not be compatible and will require significant labor and time to use. Keep in mind Russia's demographic are on the verge of collapse. They just don't have the men necessary to fix this shit.

>>64482560 (OP)
All future warfare at any level is going to be combatants knocking out each other's electrical infrastructure right off the bat like a bunch of niggers thanks to muh 5th Gen Warfare.

>>64482560 (OP)
>In a war is it even worth it throwing drones, cruise missiles and sabotages against power grid?
It's much better than striking refineries.

Maybe some day Zelensky will figure out to strike factories and war critical infrastructure. We are slowly getting there.

A little-known operation during World War II was when the British released balloons attached to cables, causing considerable damage to the German power grid.

>>64483443
>t. https://youtu.be/k4ZpwC4GclI

>>64482875
yeah, probably but in reality no, because Russia imports them because they can't make them
you should go out from time to time

>In a war is it even worth it throwing drones, cruise missiles and sabotages against power grid?
Russia seems to think so, why shouldn't Ukraine respond in kind, you fucking vatnigger?

>>64482875
It must be nice living in a state of complete delusion.

>>64482889
>complex electrical schemata, or "copper board"
qrd? idk what these are.

>>64482875
2 rubles have been deposited into your account.

>>64483443
refer to >>64482883

and read the WW2 strategic bombing survey. because both the combatants in this war clearly have. hitting factories is a game of whackamole with marginal impact, hitting material inputs (oil refineries, chemical plants) and energy infrastructure has outsized impact.

>>64483782
russia can't churn these out but china does.

>>64483443
they hit a chemical plant in bryansk last week, didn't they?

>>64483939
China most certainly cannot churn these out on short notice, lol.

>>64483952
>produce on short notice
no.
>deliver on short notice
yes

if you don't understand the difference you shouldn't be discussing this. China has a massive, ramped up industry that can redirect its outputs at fixed rates

>>64483971
China is most certainly not diverting the transformers produced for other international clients to bail out monke's stupid ass. What a great way to force literally all of your customers to go to other suppliers. If you're trying to imply there's some kind of existing inventory available to sell off, then you're huffing some real good shit

>>64482875
non-retards: "don't interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake"
rushills:
>h-hahaha don't do this, it's completely useless!

>>64483936
>hitting the things that make and deliver weapons does nothing
>hitting things that have no impact on the war is much better
Sounds like Zelensky's strategy book.
>and read the WW2 strategic bombing survey.
This is a WW1 war. Destroying oil refineries would work in WW2 because they actually needed fuel for the war.

>>64483982
>If you're trying to imply there's some kind of existing inventory available to sell off,
where did I imply that, retard?
>they won't redirect
for a high enough price they will. and if emperor Xi tells them to, that price won't be very high at all.

rerouting deliveries for wartime consumption is an age old practice. look at the shit US manufacturers were pulling before US entry into the war in 39-41, letting Britain and France buy up entire production runs ordered by someone else, for extortionate prices

>>64483774
>Russia seems to think so, why shouldn't Ukraine respond in kind, you fucking vatnigger?
You are saying Ukraine is just as retarded as Russia, you fucking retard. Suddenly what Russia does isn't retarded when Ukraine copies it.

>>64483997
>oil processing is just fuel
>fuel isn't needed by industry
>electricity isn't needed by industry
you aren't qualified to discuss any of this

>>64483997
how is it even possible for you ziggers to be so fucking stupid

>russia bombs electric grind all the time
>it does nothing
>ukraine bombs electric grind
>that's genius it will totally have an effect

>>64484009
>electricity isn't needed by industry
It was about refineries retard and yes bombing refineries is doing nothing.
>>64484012
Retard gets mad over truth.

>>64483997
>Destroying oil refineries would work in WW2 because they actually needed fuel for the war
Are you implying that Russia doesn't need fuel for the war right now?

>>64484079
What do they need it for? Tanks they can't send on the assault since they get droned the moment they start to concentrate? Motorbikes that can't get past concertina wires? Supplies for the soldiers that are sent into the meat grinder a measly ten days after signing up their contracts?

>>64483628
I remember that, there were 99 of them, and painted red so they could be identified by recon aircraft afterwards

>>64484087
OK my bad I thought you were being serious right now, you're clearly trolling.

>>64484087
It's honestly hard for me to believe anyone can be this fucking stupid while still being able to use a computer and figure out how to post on 4chan. Is this some real premium-grade bait?

>>64482560 (OP)
>Can you actually damage a medium sized country-s power grid to a point of practical collapse with reasonable amount of firepower?

obviously not nobody but usa has a centralized power grid system
you can take down the uhv cables
but you also need to take out the ehv cables that are buried underground which they act as a backup

so no they cant
unless they completely take out all the substations
(and take out equals to a complete destruction not hitting a transformer that can be easly swap out)

>>64484108
He's right you retard that's why you have no argument.

Russia destroying infrastructure for years did nothing.

Ukraine destroying infrastructure will do nothing.

For a simple reason, it's not needed for the WW1 style war fought purely by infantry.

Retarded shills can't admit it because they need their fake propaganda victories. Another useless refinery hit, Russian economy is definitely collapsing this time.

>>64484119
Ok, without fuel, how does Russia get ammo to its field and air defense artillery units? How does it tow those artillery pieces? And the radars? How are you even going to power the radars without a generator? How does it get the men who operate it to the positions? How does it feed those units? And what about the other types of supply? That's just field and air defense artillery, which is logistically simple compared to the headache that is for example, military aviation.

I really want to know what your mental model of this war is. Do you think Russians are carrying howitzers and their shells by hand from train stations? Multiply what I just said times 20 for every other essential branch of the military that needs automobiles to operate, then double it for aviation.

>>64484147
Tell me how the WW1 ended then? Did the trench warfare inched all the way across the Germany until there was no more Germany left or was it something else? If it was something else, what do you think might have served as a factors of that "something else"?

Depends in the grid layout, my town has a single large grid site that would cut power for most of the city. Replacement transformers of that size are not held locally or regionally to my knowledge, they are built to order and available stock levels are low. The time taken to deliver install and energise this equipment would be days at best but likely over a week. Grid sites cant be easily moved so there's nothing to stop them being hit again once repaired. If Russia can't produce these transformers themselves and they are under sanctions, then there is a real risk of irreparable attrition to the grid that can only be fixed by imperfect workarounds.
For a country as centralised as Russia giving Moscow and St Petersberg weekly days long blackouts is quite possible

>>64484147
>it's a land war not a grid war

>>64484174
>what do you think might have served as a factors of that "something else"?
It was kikes sabotaging the home front so they could start their degenerate weimar Republic
Won't happen this time since Jews are on Russian side

>>64484184
>Jews are on Russian side
Surely this time the scorpion wont stab

>>64484178
>they are under sanctions
They'll just work around then through China and India and Iran like they did so far for everything else

>>64484184
Yea. Kikes and only, since brave german soldiers were winning left and right and Weimar was very unwelcome, but kikes waved a magic wand and *woosh* it came to be, against popular will.

>>64484119
>>64484087
I refuse to believe there are more than two mouth-drooling retards in this thread with IQs matching the ambient temperature of a vatnik's coffin, and am more convinced that you are samefagging.

Why you are behaving this way is the real fun in investigating.

>>64484058
>russia bombs electric grind all the time
>it does nothing
it was one of the biggest issues early in the war, three factors have prevented it being a total crisis:
>russia was focusing on civilian over industrial targets for the grid
>ukraine had heavy support of this area from its allies, because helping somebody not freeze to death is much easier to sell than giving them missiles
>they have now had multiple years to build up resiliency and redundancy for the grid
it's caused and still causes ukraine major problems, but russia is in a different position.

>>64484058
>bombing refineries is doing nothing
its reducing russias supply of refined petroleum products. this either reduces their sales, reduces the amount available within russia to civilians or the military, or causes them to spent money on refined petrolum products from elsewhere. you can argue that the cessnas could best serve the war effort in another way if you must, but saying it's doing nothing is a so-retarded-it-must-be-malicious take

>>64482679
Russia runs on LPT's (large power transformers) which date back to the soviet era and are made bespoke for their grid, there are two factories in Russia that work together to make them and most of their shit is imported to do it, so they're closer to assembly lines.
LPT's are big guys
Like somewhere around 300t of gear, so the 2-step solution is to fuck as many of them as you can, then fuck the factories and collect banana

>>64483936
>. hitting factories is a game of whackamole with marginal impact
it wasnt marginal, something like 10-30% reductions in production were meaningful impacts on the war effort
but they could have drastically magnified its effect by hitting targets like energy generation and oil instead of just applying more force to just the factories

>>64484174
Nta but the ww1 thing is retarded for quite a few reasons.
We are over 100 years in the future the economies and supply chains are much more complex.
Second Russia is not Germany that was bitchless with few African holdings, almost no resources and fighting a two front war because Austria-Hungary was retarded.
Also third Russia is not cut off from the global trade by a large naval blockade and there is not another large player joining the war in the end to tip the scales even further.
Germany caved in because of those factors, Ukraine doing a little terror bombing will have little effect on the course of the war, they need manpower if they want to outlast the Russians and at the moment they seem to have no way of getting it.


Hell even the victory conditions and the purpose of this war are completely different from ww1.
I am so tired of redit 2022 tourists making this retarded comparison.

>>64484184
>the jews are on our side
get a load of this goy lmao

>>64484231
Firstly
>We are over 100 years in the future the economies and supply chains are much more complex.
Then
>Russia is not cut off from the global trade by a large naval blockade
And lastly
>Second Russia is not Germany that was bitchless with few African holdings, almost no resources

So, what you're claiming is that bombing russian infrastructure is silly because of what?
Can russians turn their turnip pickling plants into producing distillation columns or transformers? You yourself pointed that supply lines are mush more complex nowadays. It' s not easy to get such short supply things if you can't produce them entirely by yourself and are under sanctions. Naval blockade not necessarily always needed.
Or is it silly because ukies could've converted their drones and missiles into new recruits?

>>64482881
>Define practical collapse
Perhaps 6 hours a day of power in central areas, weeklong blackouts in rural areas.

>>64482883
>the US bomber survey of WW2 found out that they had drastically underestimated how much damage they could have done to german electrical production and overestimated german ability to repair damage to their grid
>so, in retrospect, hitting german energy distribution might have been even more effective at crippling their industry than attacking mechanical production
>it was identified as the second largest missed opportunity of the bombing campaign, second only to bombing their oil refineries at an earlier date
Well, this is the USA, and yea, they can bomb any country in the world today back to stone age, this is not what i would consider "reasonable amount of firepower" :)
>>64482883
>reroutable and besides a shortterm tactical effect
>the most damage is caused by the cascading failures even a temporary outage causes
>even if you can fix the grid quickly, even a single hour of no power can cause a domino effect of failure
Thats what i am interested in, i dont really understand how modern electrical grids work and what happens if you blow up 1 substation vs 1000 substations, simutlaneously vs one at the time? Does the electrical frequency just misalign and its gg for entire network or is it just lol lmao reroute power via underground cables. Currently looking at both the ukr and russia and besides some local shortime blackouts, there seems to be little effect, but as i lack the understanding, it might be that entire grid is close to fubar.

>>64484288
>this is not what i would consider "reasonable amount of firepower" :)
you missed the entire point of the bombing survey
hitting electrical distribution could have potentially caused outsized effects on german industrial capacity than just hitting the factories alone, especially because it was a lot harder to to repair the electrical grid than it is to repair a single factory and energy production was more fragile than assumed during the war

this means that, if you do not have the firepower to hit both their factories and their power plants at the same time, it might be better to hit just the power plants rather than just the factories

>>64482792
They're custom because they have to be built into their use, even mostly off the shelf.

>>64484001
Don't you understand? When China reorganizes for a war economy and a war they're not even fighting, they fucking lost before they started.

>>64482875
>in Russia they probably make 100's of those a day and set them out to rot in a field for fun
You're thinking China there.
>>64484008
Different situations for both sides. Bombing the power grid in Ukraine will mostly just annoy the civilian population. Most Ukrainian weapons come from abroad and whatever they make at home is decentralized and small scale.
Russia meanwhile has to make most their weapons themselves or produce goods which they sell to China in return for vital components. As such power outages would impact the Russian war-effort far more significantly.
Also Moscow is filled with bitches, fags, rich kids, closet liberals and Tajiks. It's a bit of a complicated situation that might escalate easily. And the weather in Moscow is a lot worse in winter than in Ukraine.

>>64484317
>Also Moscow is filled with bitches, fags, rich kids, closet liberals and Tajiks. It's a bit of a complicated situation that might escalate easily. And the weather in Moscow is a lot worse in winter than in Ukraine.
This is the part that most ITT skip over. Unlike Germany during WW1/2, Russia is pretending it isn't at war. Ukraine is at war, and fully comprehends that -- interruption of services are expected. The fuel/energy shortage in Russia is having an impact.

>>64484317
And Poo
They have a lot more imported Poo in Mosquecow

>>64484330
>is having an impact
Surely we will start seeing the consequences of this impact soon. It is going to take no more than 336 hours

>>64484330
that is also a part of why russia keeps poking Europe. they want a (over)reaction so they can then claim that they are under attack, it's purely defensive. don't ask why all the men we just mobilized do defend against HATO aggression in the Baltics are being send to Ukraine.

>>64484341
Jokes on them, Euros are pussies and won't do shit

>>64484340
I know this is hard to believe, but some of us actually do read the Russian news papers. Concrete and steel production has been cut, oil/fuel refineries have delayed switching to winter fuel production to make up for the current shortfall, the government is currently trapped in an interest rate doomloop over preferred loans -- and this is what they're saying publicly.

>>64482875
lead time for an order in china (russias only chance) is measured in years and they have a waiting list
>>64482875
>in Russia they probably make 100's of those a day
Oh you are brown, stupid and don't have a fucking clue

>>64484341
This is what is expect in the coming months that will crash the global markets. It's looking for an excuse, and Putin needs to escalate the crisis to assert more control and direct the population further.

>>64484356
Interestingly they're also trying to recoup some cash out of the local businesses and inhabitants wandering around with Chongbux in their pockets
So if they're feeling very optimistic they can buy bonds with Yuan because the Ruble at some point is going to shit the bed and then lie there screaming in its own mess

>>64484365
As far as I'm concerned, on the China/Russia border, they trade by barter for goods. Chinese citizens do not want rubes. It was directly oil for rice, but now? I have no idea what they're trading.

>>64484356
So surely Pokrovsk isn't going to fall, right?

>>64482679
>trannies are custom

No. They're fucking mass produced you mong.

>>64484369
They probably get decent exchange with precious metals or gemstones in some cases. A while back they tried to trade chick-peas to Paki's but dunno how that worked out, more than likely there's still some international currency floating around Mr Wang's Candymountain will take in kind. At some point that will run out and they'll have to catch some buryat girls for wives or something

>I ain't even joking on that last one!
>shit's real sketchy east of the Urals

The ziggers are posting interracial slide threads now, so I'd say it's working yeah.

>>64484113
>(and take out equals to a complete destruction not hitting a transformer that can be easly swap out)
Just poor some concrete in the those holes in the bridge. 30 minute repair.

>>64484370
A fatuous question, but if you're going succur the Red Citadel's anus, at least know what the mouth freely says.

>>64484372
No, they''re individually made- >>64484226

>>64484362
>This is what is expect in the coming months that will crash the global markets.
Russia has almost no relevence to global markets at this point tard neither is putin a credible conventional threat to the baltics their entire decrepit military is stuck in ukraine. There would not even be a dip to buy if putin tards out feebily and gets shredded, zero impact on the EU, NATO or markets. Just a few sorties bt deployed NATO sqadron in eastern Europe and even less Russian obsolete cram for the Ukranians to finish off. If Russia was a credible nook threat to civilisation moscow would already be radioactive glass (and world markets would still not give a much of a fuck)/ In fact if Moscow gets nuked buy the fucking dip quick because the line will be back up in 72 hours..

>>64484398
The ones used in North America are mass produced. Feels strange to hear that isn't true elsewhere.

>>64484408
I admire you enthusiasm, but Russia can disrupt the global markets -- especially ones that have been looking for an excuse for a correction. There's significant fundamental issues, and the sentiment isn't reflecting the ATHs.

To what degree can Russia can they disrupt? It's a hard question to weigh, but again, the markets are looking for an excuse.

>>64484354
Why are these ultra tard brown spam posts here lately?Is glavset outsourcing to a calcutta special needs bus now or something? You do realise that the EU-NATO states have the capabilty right now to erase the entire Russian air force in 24 hours without breaking a sweat and have more fighters than Russia has military aircraft?
>>64484354
>Euros are pussies and won't do shit
What is WW1 and WW2 and where they mainly fought? Did the EU educational aid with basic dates and facts in world history with crayons colouring book not reach your village with the water purifcation tablets and emergency food packs? Ask your grandfather about the men who took over your village and punative expeditioned your tribe into picking tea and taught you to saaar and where they were from.

>>64484409
Oh, I know its bonkers. Welcome to the 3rd world, doing 3rd world things
>they do have T-I-G-E-R-S though
>not as many as Texas has, but they do have tigers

No, if the LPT in Pidorstan ups and completely explodes, they build it from scratch and ship all 300 tonnes of that fat bitch to site in the next 2-3 business years

>>64484379
personally I think we are going to see a great buyout of russian productive assets, rights and commercial infrastructure east of lake Bikal.
russia can no longer cash flow the war. they also can't borrow internationally not just due to sanctions but because no one expects russia to honor their contracts if/when things go sideways for them.
the only ones willing to do so are the Chinese because the CCP will enforce payment. but even they only want to do so in yuan or even better assets. that is also what the CCP want, to buy up russian Siberia. now it's going to do it for rubels on the dollar.
it will keep the russian war economy going but at the cost of selling off russia's future.

I'm sure the US doesn't like it because that allows China to move closer to autarky. but as a yourapoor I don't mind at all

>>64484416
>but Russia can disrupt the global markets
Russia has zero connection to world markets at this point. It has the economic releveance of mali. Maybe less. Further markets will respond to interest rates lowering by going up as they always have and will. Any downward pause in that would be a temporary irrelevence. You are thick as dried shit. Its fascinating your grasp of economics and markets is as limited as your grasp of electrical systems, strategy and military science. I choose to blame childhood malnutrition rather your failed culture or special needs dna.

>>64484372
>>64484409
In a substation with more than one transformer, the impedance has to match between the two or the one with lower impedance will hog the load and fail significantly quicker
Substation transformers are made to order. The only places that keep spares on hand are power plants, especially nuclear ones.
I build these fucking things (substations) for a living.

>>64484331
Why do indians go to a muslim country like russia?

>>64484429
A 99yr lease perhaps?
>top kek
The chinese are more than likely going gibs me dat nice big nickel mine, the city next to it and maybe some oil and gas fields that they can exploit straight back home without it even touching the sides of russia's gaping anus. They'll bring in their own, cut down entire forests, run the mines, mills and refineries for as long as its worth a buck

>>64484442
I guess it's an alternative to being enslaved on a building site in the middle east.
They can get enslaved in a frozen swamp next to a factory in Siberia

>>64484429
>I think we are going to see a great buyout of russian productive assets, rights and commercial infrastructure east of lake Bikal.
Pointless without rule of law, which Rusisa never had when it comes to stuff like natural resource assets. Anything at all even connected to the CCP is banned from investing in Russia as they don't want to yuan exposed to bad debt in an uncontrollable manner. They might throw Putin a limited state overdraft but Chinese investement in Russia at any scale is not happening, it would be enough to destoy the already weak Chinese credit system and China is in a quite serious economic downturn. The EU won;t be interested in investing in collapsed Russia OR teh USA because everyone knows what happened to those investements when they were made in the 90s. Russia is utterly fucked for a generation at minimum or until they clear reparations payments negotiations (they will be multi decades of paying) and have them 80% paid. That';s the current price for Russia being allowed anywhere near civilisation, 300 billion gone immediately and a trillion in oil and gas over the next decade at minnimum.

>>64484448
>A 99yr lease perhaps?
No one is stupid enough to think Russian society has the ability to maintain rule of law over leases for foreign investors for a few years let alone 99 years. The 90s blew away those delusions. Russia fucked itself and it's future hard and long being a lawless gangster state.

>>64484442
>Why do indians go to a muslim country like russia?
it allows visa free entry for 'onward travel' it's party of russias hybrid warfare immigration to the EU/NATO states bullshit that India and modi shook hand on with putin

>>64484458
>Pointless without rule of law, which Rusisa never had
that's why I believe there will be a sell off.
no taking shares in or making an investment. you sell me this mine and the tracks to ship the ore to China and you get some cash you have to spend buying Chinese goods. and only on productive assets east of lake Bikal where China can enforce their citizens assets being theirs.
the moment russia so much as looks at that mine again the Chinese will summon the russian ambassador so he can convey to moscow to knock it off or else.

>>64484464
oh I was completely joking about the 99yr lease
But they'll quite happily 'move in' and kick the locals out of productive resources and ship it straight home, any gangsta ziggers who want a cut will get shot and thrown in some landfill along the way. It'll just be 'Little China' in all but name, no environmental safeguards or hand rails, so no one will no any different except they're not allowed in unless the landlord needs day labour or something

>>64483347
Yes. Shutting down the power to the "data centrrs" of our AI masters will have an almost rejuvenating effect. But the AI dependent masses will only decome outraged (and whine louder).

>>64484442
White women

>>64484440
this also worked with siemens, those fucking things cost millions and usually draw down spares are booked by national grid operators in real nations decades in advance because of the time it takes to get one made and installed. Russia will cannabalise the failing stalin era depolulating cities in its hinterland for them,filled with pensioners who moved there to live more cheaply on their pittances, otherwise abandoned because that's the only place they will find MAYBE spares. It's not even a small job to go that, get it out, onto a train and install it and the job will have a high chance of failing and will defnitely result in a fucked grid from where ever it was ripped. The Rusisan grid management modernisation (stalled and dysfunctional as everything in Russia) was nearly entirely based on using EU and American tech by the way. Companies liek GE and Siemens know more about the Russian grid than the kremlin and have more parts in the potemkin villages like Moscow in the last 20 years then there is Russian made stuff. There is zero chance of replacements or standby units being delivered for that either, they go to the EU, contract customers and Ukraine. Russia is not even allowed in the queue. Chinas orderbook is backlogged as well. Not a hope in getting anything for at least 18 months at best and it will cost millions per unit

>>64484479
Why would anone sane want a worthless title to a Russian asset when the place is run by gangsters? Neither does China need bad debt or investment write offs like that collapsing the yuan while their economy is in shit and the turd world is already defualting on their belt and road credit gibs.

>>64484481
The only way China could move would be to actually annex the territory in entirety because title or investment in Russia by foreigners is a mugs game as demonstrated twice in the last 30 years. The first thing China did when this shit kicked off was ban any state related invetment in Russia and even froze the belt and road stuff there. No one including China is insane enough to want exposure to Russian bad debt or assets only secured by Russian 'law' (a flexible concept at best)

>>64484479
The most any Russian 'asset' is worthto forign investors while the territory is under Russian govermental administration and courts is one dollar at most and that's just because the utterky worthless title deed could be sold for novelty value on ebay.

>>64482560 (OP)
>Or is it all just easily repairable
if they clap the turbines of the actual power plants, then no. that is definitely not easily replaceable. At least not with quality ones like Siemens. Chang ones have less then half the lifespan of a quality controlled one.

Hitting transformers and the like is another matter

>>64484528
>>64484545
what part of "east of lake Bikal where China can enforce their citizens assets being theirs." do you not understand?
China wouldn't be counting on something as pitiful as the russian courts or moscow's authority. no it know that russia is a bandit state and that China is the biggest gang in town.

>Puting transformers on every single pole (every.single.one) all thorough the country
>Decentralized transformers instead of centralized cuckshit
Nippon reigns superior AGAIN. Many such cases.

>>64484001
>for a high enough price they will
Lmao look up whi their competitors are on this market right now. Big tech growing up datacenters like berries for their AImeme. Good luck outbiding the big tech. Putin's only hope is the bubble popping, which may happen sooner or later.

>>64484582
>Thing ...*japanese* >w<
It's not like japanese are only ones who use step down transformators, they just looks different elsewhere, y know....

Lol, vatniks are spamming /tv/ right now because they keep getting btfo'd here.
>>>/tv/215711751

>>64484169
Nta but:
>ammo to its field and air defense artillery units?
Mobiks carrying it.
>How does it tow those artillery pieces? And the radars?
Teams of mobiks pulling them.
>How are you even going to power the radars without a generator?
Mobiks in giant hamster wheels to generate power.
>How does it get the men who operate it to the positions?
They're part of the towing teams.
>How does it feed those units?
Eat the fallen of the towing and supply teams.
It's like you've never seen the skaven before.

>>64484556
the problem is that you probably don't want to clap the nuclear plants because its too risky politically, all power plants will also have better AD then substations which there are just too many of to protect

Looks like the stupid question spam has started back up

>>64484519
Siemens shit sucks dick. Everything is over complicated for zero gain versus Mitsubishi, GE, or Hitachi, at least for gas breakers.
>>64484582
>12kv Distro can is the same as 345kv transformer
I assure you that Japan, like every other electrical grid, relies on large centralized transformers to step voltage down from transmission and subtransmission levels to distribution feeders which then connect to pole mounted transformers.

>>64484184
>Dolchstoßlegende
Du bist so ein erbärmlicher Untermensch dass es fast schon wieder lustig ist

>>64482889
>If this information is current, then it's only a matter of time before their grid fails.
There is potential

>>64484087
this is either bait, shilling, or too retarded to be worth saving, but to clarify for anyone reading this who might be swayed - despite all this bullshit you read about EVs and shit, the world runs on petrol/gas. Eliminate petrol and gas from russia and it ceases to function as a civilisation instantly. Entire million-man theatres of WW2 were fought over access to fuel. Pretending it doesn't matter is like pretending you don't need air to breathe.

>>64484331
>Poo
I like how this one word has come to dominate contemporary discourse, and it's not even overused, that's just how relevant it is. Poo. Lol.

>>64484599
Ours are what Japan has on poles when we use poles. Other wise they look like Green metal boxes just sitting next to the sidewalk on a s street. The boxes are sturdy enough for people to sit on. Sometimes people paint them to be pretty.

>>64484298
If you use off-the shelf legos pieces to build what you need, is it really custom? We've mostly figured out and standardized this "electric grid" magic.

>>64484803
let's not get too amped up.

>>64484782
my German must be getting better because I almost understood this

>>64485201
There are very little 'off the shelf' parts in an HV transformer. The tap changing switch perhaps. It's a big tank filled with oil and hundreds of kilometers of copper windings. But like another anon said, they have to be manufactured according to spec with the other transformers in the substation.

These transformers can have a lifespan measured in decades, the oldest I've worked with was made in 1958. The existing production lines are making them on order based on multi-year replacement plans. If you were to blow holes in even half a dozen of them using drones, you're talking about years of lead time for additional production, and that would be in a healthy, non-sanctioned economy. A proper organised drone campaign against Russian substations will be one more very final nail in the coffin for Russia.

>>64482792
>>64482679
>transformers are custom built/extremely difficult to replace
ive heard this claimed many times but i've never gotten an explanation.
why would transformers need to be custom made? is there really that many different combinations of voltage in and out?

>>64485420
Long lifetimes = low demand = low supply. But yes, if you were the dictator of North Korea, you could simply order a transformer winding factory to mass produce them. They're not complex machinery.

>>64485446
>>64485409
i guess it comes down to the distance the power has to travel since longer distances use higher voltage, that then has to get stepped down locally right?
so if its (just as an example):

100 miles of powerline travel requires 700k volts
but
120 miles of powerline travel requires 800k volts

If that line has to get stepped down to like 100k volts or something, those would still be two different special built transformers for the two voltages?
am i getting that right?

>>64485446
>Long lifetimes = low demand = low supply. But yes, if you were the dictator of North Korea, you could simply order a transformer winding factory to mass produce them. They're not complex machinery.
Does that mean basically that if you have North Korea tier economy, you will never be fully out of power as long as any power plant stands?
It kinda seems like russians can jerry rig some domestic shitcan transformers and no big deal? Yes it sucks but at least works.

>>64482560 (OP)
>is this strategy actually viable?
TLDR
Yes. They need to do it for about three months though

>>64482560 (OP)
>As Ukr keeps hitting substations in russia along refinerys, question arises
>is this strategy actually viable?
How much do these contribute or are critical to the war of mostly infantry in trenches and drones?
[spoiler]nearly zero[/spoiler]

>>64485514
one flaw in the coating on up to hundreds of km of fine wire of exact diamerer or an error in winding makes them useless. They are impossibke to repair easily. They are not 'easy to make' Nost of north korea has no electrification and that is visible from space

pic
Figure 2. Nighttime lights of North Korea in August 2022. Photo: VIIRS/NASA/NOAA/Earth Observation Group. Annotation by 38 North.

>>64484224
>>ukraine had heavy support of this area from its allies, because helping somebody not freeze to death is much easier to sell than giving them missiles
Even Putin dickrider countries like (Fico's) Slovakia are willing to send Ukraine energy equipment because it's just an easy PR win to them.

>>64485537
>How much do these contribute or are critical to the war of mostly infantry in trenches and drones?
They power the factories that make the drones and explosives, refurbish tanks, artillery and APCs and repair them and the chemical plants that go to make the explosives and the homes for the workers in those factories they also power a large 80%+ percentage of russian rail massively impacting logistics and supply as well as miltary bases and airports, radars and water and swerage works, and while they have a batttery back up mobile telephony and communications systems.

How brown are you really? I'm visualising subsaharian wagner africa or rural hindu India or algeria given the level of stupid in your output. Maybe you just represent the new generation of snowmalians, beligerent, malicious and deceiptful but retarded.

Zelensky is a retard who thinks doing this shit (Kurks, refineries, power grid) will force Putin to negotiate so the retard wastes lots of resources on pointless shit that has nothing to do with the war. Putin clearly has no intention to negotiate.

>>64485551
>How brown are you really?
you are a retard

>>64484425
>>they do have T-I-G-E-R-S though
>>not as many as Texas has, but they do have tigers
What the fuck how is this true
USA
USA
USA

>>64485553
>>64485557
>Indians cannot understand that factories and electricity are important for manufacturing and logistics
Why am I not surprised?

>>64484429
>but because no one expects russia to honor their contracts if/when things go sideways for them.
haven't they been honoring their oil and gas contracts?

>>64485539
genuinely how the fuck does north korea even function with so little electrification? Is it all just trucks and local diesel generators and horse drawn carts? Or do they actually have a lot of electrification but it's just not that visible at night because they turn it all off in the evening? Norktard pls explain.

>>64485586
dont summon that flaming faggot

>>64485574
>>64485551
how effective were russian attacks on the power grid you retarded pajeet?
[spoiler]none[/spoiler]
>point out zelensky's retarded tactics
>you are brown
be more subtle you retarded shill

>>64485586
>how the fuck does north korea even function with so little electrification?
like they live in the 50ies/60ies70ies

>>64485586
ever heard the quote 'Japan has been in the year 2000 for 50 years', or something along those lines? well, north korea is like that but for the 50s-70s of last century. and the middle of last century in korea-land, not the west

>>64484341
This is probably the one reason that the EU being little bitches and not actively sending troops to Ukraine is actually a good thing, (overall I think Russia should have been ground into the dirt and Moscow reduced to a smoking crater by the entirety of NATO and the EU the second they decided to chimp out). It means that Puccia is not only demilitarizing themselves at a rate faster than anyone in the west could have dreamed, but they're completely humiliating themselves in the process because they're getting crushed by their own puny ex-vassal they've looked down on for their entire history, and when they finally fall apart, they will have no excuse except "well actually evil HATO was supplying holhols so wasnt fair fight :(((", whereas if they got crushed by NATO they would at least have their pathetic cope that "we fight the entier west!!! so it's a win anyway!!!"

>>64485616
they didn't work because
a) Ukraine got connected to the European power grid
b) in doing so they modernized a lot of their infrastructure to European standards and thus European parts

>>64485586
>how the fuck does north korea even function with so little electrification?
Simple: electricity is for the industry. Slaves don't need electricity, besides, they have to go to bed early so they can go back to work when the sun rises.

>>64485586
Much of that light is just street lighting, which is unnecessary when nightlife and travel are banned by default. You're supposed to be in your commieblock when not working, and you can't leave the area/county/whatever you're in without internal travel papers and plans anyway.
There's some light around the capital for propaganda reasons, and because some people living in there are a bit more equal than others. But for the rest, there's no light at night.

>>64485553
>Zelensky is a retard
Seems to be doing very well indeed to me. Brilliantly even. Putin? Not so good, how shall I put it? Putins not in the top league with Zelensky.

>>64485586
>genuinely how the fuck does north korea even function with so little electrification?
Fear. Terror. Absolute state terror.

>>64485616
I don;t think you will find many pro Ukranian Indians loose on the intrenet. Touched a nerve with the sub saharian african reference did I? Are you Sudanese or Somalian then? Or that idiot in Canada?

>>64485625
>This is probably the one reason that the EU being little bitches
The IQ plummets again, like a temperature drop caused by a siberian breeze

These awful Rusisan propagandists really need to be eliminated. It's just no good. It's like leaving dirty plates in the sink.

>>64485692
Do you anons even grasp that most agriculture in North Korea is still done by the human hand without mechanical aid?

>>64485616
nta
>how effective were russian attacks on the power grid
Nobody likes to admit it, but winter 2023 was the closest Russia has ever been to forcing a general evacuation of Kyiv due to loss of power and damage to the grid.

Didn't happen due to the herculean efforts of USA/CAN/EU and even Turkey's support, but it was real bad.

Make a case for Russian propagandists not to be killed. Lay out the best rationale for not getting rid of them. Where they are is known. Who they are is known. Why not just get rid of them? America may have scruples about it but none exist in the intelligence services of the major European NATO powers with regard to that kind of scum. Convince me.

>>64485936
Their grid is decentalised now and far more resilent.

So sad she got cancer. Terrible tragedy. Who's next?

>>64485939
the first amendment

>>64485939
They are easily replaceable, better to only strike them to make a point (like Dugin and his daughter blowing up.)

In a general war between europe and russia they should all go though

>>64485939
Without Russian propagandists, how will we know when things blow up?

>>64484545
>novelty value on Ebay
>title deed
I just had a Majora's Mask flashback. You know, at midnight, in the inn...

what's better, blowing up transformers or ammo depot.
btw, they just blew up an ammo depot in Donesk

pretty cool explosion:
https://files.catbox.moe/s9k4wc.mp4

>>64482560 (OP)
no and ukraine is retarded for not taking actual land back first lol
They have some of the dumbest leaders making the calls.

>>64485907
Extremely Russian post

>>64485586
The lights visible from space are street lights. You don't need street lights when you've had a curfew for 50+ years.

>>64486221
You don't need food when you have famines. Welcome to Best Korea

>>64485616
>>point out zelensky's retarded tactics
He seems to have done quite well. You would have been a better President of Ukraine and done as Mister Putin told you and joined the nuUSSR with belarus?

>>64486176
You lift the mustache to show the eggs

>>64482560 (OP)
The tl;dr: is, yes, at a budget you degrade as much of your enemy's assets as possible, which in turn makes things easier to you.
This is also important because hitting Moscow makes it clear Putin is not under control of the situation, war is coming to the capital and this is the result of Putin's choices.

>>64483443
They have been doing this for years now, there is a reason why russianshave been stuck at Dombas and their only way to "advance" is to keep sending mobiks in small numbers to try to paint a few more km2s of the map red, 0.4 percent from a once called superpower against a rogue oblast is telling.

>>64484058
Oh, is that so? Excellent, it means ukrainians will keep wasting resources on useless things, surely mighty PUCCIA should be celebrating its enemies incompetence and even encourage them to keep wasting resources on such targets.

>>64486124
This is clearly a nuclear blast.

>>64484803
>>64485275
Stop, I can't resist that!

>>64484058
Ukraine is a proxy, the situation isn't symmetrical at all

>>64486387
Your mom's a nuclear blast

>>64484472
You have to understand, when your home country is India, even Russia looks like paradise. Hell, there were pajeets doing food delivery in Armenia when it was actively getting bombed. I guess dying to a bomb is still preferable to dying of dysentry

>>64486006
You'd think that poor bastard would need more than one sheet...

>>64484831
Indeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l01AMCBG0Wk

>>64485912
You won't do shit

>>64485559
Texas has very loose rules on the private ownership of big cats, and plenty of land suited for keeping them. I think it has something like the most tigers in private hands on the planet.

>>64485547
Slovekia does send military aid, even now.

>>64485559
>>64487668

Peasants have no needings of electricity))))

>>64482560 (OP)
I assume the same as the strikes on ukrainian substations. Failed to have significant longterm effect, probably annoying to fix constantly.

Its worth doing with cheap drones. Costs more than the drone to repair, and even a short blackout of an urban area can cause up to millions in lost economic output.

>>64485574
>>Indians cannot understand that factories and electricity are important for manufacturing and logistics
While you are right, those things will almost always be the last places to lose power, maybe small scale independent workshops that are becoming popular for drone production would be affected but they can run off generators if needed.

>>64489240
>While you are right, those things will almost always be the last places to lose power,
Technically correct, but overlooks knock-on effects that general disruptions will cause all along the supply chain and larger system.

>>64482560 (OP)
Ukraine shills always feening for the next game changer lmao.
>f16's didnt change a thing
>storm shadow
>himars
>leapoards
>patriot
You lost

>>64489612
Correct, Ukraine lost the Ruin Your Own Country Sppedrun Challenge. Russia has beat them by a mile.

>>64482560 (OP)

ukraine is used to it. they all have gas generators and power rationing apps and whatever the fuck else they have needed for 3 years.

russians don't have indoor toilets. it will suck hard for them.

>>64482560 (OP)
>As Ukr keeps hitting substations in russia along refinerys, question arises - is this strategy actually viable?
yes

>>64482560 (OP)
>is this strategy actually viable
What else can they do? It's not like they can ever hope to beat Russia on the field, like the prokrovsk fiasco has abundantly proven

>>64482560 (OP)
The reason delectrification didn't mess with Ukraine is that the west provided a ton of diesel generators to help them until they built enough resiliency and redundancy in the system. Russia struggles way more with that due to sanctions slowing down purchases and putting further strain on their fuel situation

>>64484612
The libturds tried to make the Skaven unappealing by making them resemble rats but if someone looks past shallow surface level observations they will see that the Skaven are actually incredibly based. Each one is a nietzschean uberrodent who puts himself above all others and is fully willing to smash aside any obstacles to his power. Each ones psyche lacks any of the weaknesses that cause leftism, making their society immune to its taint. They are free of feelings of inferiority which are the root of leftist thought, they possess an instinctive revulsion to everything about non-skaven meaning that leftist self-flagellation or idealization of others is impossible in a Skaven, no Skaven would ever take the clot shot (and in fact, abominations like vaccines would never develop in their society) and a big reason why they are so successful is that they put their women to better use than any other species in the setting and their psychology means that a Skaven simp that would protest about this is impossible. Even despite being meant to parody us, the libturds still couldn't help but aknowledge our self-evident superiority over them by making the Skaven have technology far in advance of everyone else, a foothold everywhere in the world, such fast population growth that they'll never be under existential threat and being guaranteed to take the world for themselves. To help one look past shallow surface level observations, note that the Warhammer 40k counterpart to the Skaven are the similarly based Imperium of Man.

>>64484433
>A street shitter was scammed (poetic justice) into being an ordnance catcher drawing fire away from a white soldier.
Now that's a Comfy Happening in Ukraine.

>>64493770
>posting shitty-ass copypastas
>posting 40k garbage on /k/
You're a double faggot, kill youself twice.

>>64493783
Can't handle basedness? There's a better site for you then.

>>64484184
> muh Dolchstoßlegende

Willy II was retarded and lost the war by himself; no amount of reeing about kikes or commies is going to change that.