What explains the internet's fixation on goth girls? Is it symptom of a repressed Jungian Anima?

>>24436671 (OP)
They had deep persona that's why they are so special

I think it's the last subculture that managed to portray themselves as deep without being unlikeable. Arthoes and alt-girls are their inheritors and they are either bpdmeons or have negative charisma.

>>24436671 (OP)
I want a girl in black lipstick to suck my cock.

>>24436671 (OP)
Why is Jung a magnet for pseuds?

Last viable subculture. Also it's the only socially acceptable way to give the preference for pale women. Despite it being the common preference of men. It also is a white exclusive aesthetic which also draws in a lot of people.

>>24436671 (OP)
Why is she holding a fish?

>>24436671 (OP)
In my case, it's my libido and worldview working in tandem here. My brain links black clothing, heavy makeup, and morbid aesthetics with depth, intensity, nonconformity, and a rejection of banality, all of which are intoxicating to a horny pessimist.
>Is it symptom of a repressed Jungian Anima?
I guess. Black clothing and morbid interests are symbols of depth, unconscious, death, transformation, which is all Anima terrain. Heavy makeup and a theatrical style are masks, persona, archetypal exaggeration, suggestive of dream and myth.

>>24436671 (OP)
I'm goth, but not a girl, the answer is sex. Nothing to do with the subculture in or of itself. People who aren't goth, often times don't know anything about it, they don't even know it's a musical genre. All they see is the black clothes, the black leather, the lipstick, eyeliner, fishnet, and chockers, and the porn neurons start firing, thinking these women are into BDSM, or are into ritualistic sex magic. It's been that way since the 90s essentially, every woman who's goth has countless stories of men approaching them thinking it's easy to talk their way into their bedrooms. That all these women have daddy issues, that they are easy to exploit, and that they just need a firm hand to guide them. Your typical "I can fix her" nonsense. Or they think goth women are dominatrixes who will step on your balls and fulfill every sexual fantasy you've ever imagined. It's also compounded by the fact that goth women who make porn, or women who just use the goth look, are often times the only people these men see representing goth culture. But again the problem existed even before internet porn. The actual goth musical scene is very small. Real life goth women and men are actually just nerds, often introverted people, that like music, horror movies and books, and autumn and warm beverages with cozy blankets. Normal nice people who aren't into kinky sex, but just like to dress up in expressive black clothing and listen to music that's an off shoot of punk rock.

>>24436671 (OP)
I don't caee about goths as much, but for the best aesthethic is pale skin, blue eyes and raven black hair. I'm a nazi like that, but for gothlites, not blondes.

>>24436831
>tfw fearful
It's the worst out of the three

You forgot the 'big titty' part.

>>24436743
She's Japanese

>>24436741
I use Pinterest and while it's not exclusively white, most black girls seem to care less about about appropriating goth for themselves. There was more fighting about the art hoe aesthetic making a space for black girls than the goth aesthetic, which I thought was interesting.

I figure that art hoes ultimately crave acceptance by society while happily colonizing its interior periphery. Goth girls on the other hand prefer the exteriority - of at least the semblance of being outside the mainstream. The "scene" girls were a reterritorialization of goth that bifurcated the movement by attempting to bring them "inside". Scene died out but goth remained.

There's also a latent pessimism in goth which speaks to a largely European philosophical movement, which might drive black people away. Anecdotal but I find other whites are most tolerant of an explicit life denying pessimism.

>>24436671 (OP)
Mass psychosis. Even the "modern" goth girl is mostly a performance, acting out a play but the script has gone missing a long time ago

>>24436671 (OP)
Burning crosses on a nigger's lawn
Burning dollars
What's a house without a home?
Dance in your white sheet glory
Dance in your passion
Talk about sugar on the six fingered beast
Conversation about the holes in your hands
Walking the garden of men's desires
Conversation about the kingdom of fire
Conversation about the kingdom of fire

>>24436906
Overthinking it, and the replies talking about goth being about having pale skin are always annoying, as black and brown people have been apart of the goth scene from the very early beginning. There's no appropriating involved, as the music, aesthetic, and scene have always been accepting and "diverse". Simply it belongs to anyone who likes the music and wants to be goth. 9/10 times the pale skin is fucking makeup, you racist dweebs, it's genuinely tiring. The reason there are a small number of black goths is that, just like every other racial or ethnic group on the planet that's vaguely aware of goth culture or that knows a person or two who at least dresses alternative or goth, they associate it with devil worship or anything that's not deemed appropriate within Abrahamic religions. Satanic panic in the late 80s and early 90s it did a crazy number on how people perceived and still perceive goths. Metal also still deals with the stigma of Satanism. Movies, shows, or books that have a dark aesthetic, still get accused of Satanism in 2025. Christianity is hands down the most common religion for black westerners and the church remains an important place in black families and communities. A minority group of people that's already marginalized and prosecuted at an unfair rate isn't going to willingly give people even more of a reason to hate them by making them think they they're devil worshippers.

>>24436952
You typed all of that tantrum to say so little.

>>24436952
And yet hip-hop is full of satanry, curious

>>24436932
Another curious thing about the modern goth is that the mythology around it is largely collectively hallucinated. The appeal of goth mommies is for them to step on you? To assume an emasculating dominatrix role?
It is a role amputated from its original context and defiled, coopted by digital succubi

>A minority group of people that's already marginalized and prosecuted at an unfair rate isn't going to willingly give people even more of a reason to hate them by making them think they they're devil worshippers.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Goth girls dont exist so they seem like mermaids to us now.

As someone who actually went to school with goth girls, I can tell you they were all ugly and lame as fuck. They were always the wealthiest and most well off kids and also total sourpusses. Their parents bought them cars for their birthday and they write poems about how shitty life is. They also cut themselves or took photos of themselves with ketchup blood for attention. Fuck goth girls.

And no, anima projection is unique to every individual's ideal woman, and it cant be monopolized by a subculture. And everyone on earth "represses" their anima, so speaking about it like a disease is dumb. If you actually think there's a hyperfixation on goth girls because of a "repressed anima" how do you explain hyperfixations on Stacies, or Loopys?

>>24436671 (OP)
It’s feminine

>>24436714
Seems like horoscopes

>>24436952
D&D was stigmatized for the same reasons and managed to undo plenty of that damage by the 00s. Most of your argument doesn't pass the sniff test and seems like a lame just so story to avoid actually engaging with black cultural movements. It's always like this.
>Why did black people do X? Why didn't they do Y?
>Because blacks have zero agency of their own and are entirely sculpted by the external forces of oppression of course :)
Bleh

The true reason black people don't give a fuck about goth is because hip hop culture got big shortly after and that was largely a niche they could make their own. Aside from the natural tension of being black and trying to adopt an aesthetic oriented around paleness, in which the most prominent figures are all white, hip hop more naturally allows for black people to tell largely black stories.

Also this modern revisionism about metal as though metal didn't/doesn't have heaps of satanic bands is kind of lame. The point should be that it doesn't matter if a band is satanic, not to try and giga cope about it.

>>24436741
>pale
>>24436965
>feminine
/thread

>>24436989
D&D is a game and not a subculture. You leave it in the kitchen or basement. Same thing for Magic The Gathering. There are no visual identifiers for D&D and MTG players.
>The true reason black people don't give a fuck about goth is because hip hop culture got big shortly after and that was largely a niche they could make their own.
Correct, hip-hop coming along and exploding into popularity definitely helped steer people away from other genres of music. Goth music was never massive anyway, even at its peak. Also you simply can not be goth unless you like goth music, even if its a little bit. Many people don't like goth music once they hear it.
>Aside from the natural tension of being black and trying to adopt an aesthetic oriented around paleness,
Again with the paleness, this is wrong. Paleness have never been a requirement to be goth. That's like saying you can't be into black metal unless you wear corpse paint. It's makeup, lighting, and photoshop that makes people look pale. Again I'm an actual goth and see goths irl. Vast majority of them are not pale...it's makeup. I've also seen black goths apply makeup that gives them a pallor that matches their own skin tone. I've seen black metal heads wear corpse paints.
>hip hop more naturally allows for black people to tell largely black stories.
No one is telling "white stories" within the goth scene it's not a race thing. It has nothing to do with race at all, black goths literally helped start the genre and sub-culture.
>Also this modern revisionism about metal as though metal didn't/doesn't have heaps of satanic bands is kind of lame
I never said that they didn't. Goth bands typically love spooky shit too. Just that the Satanic Panic (which was all bullshit) helped steer large swaths of people away from the music and scenes, and still has an affect on people's opinions of goth and metal.

Goth girls are pale and fashionable, which has been traditionally associated with the aristocracy. So it's because they look rich.

>>24437037
>There are no visual identifiers for D&D
the logo, copyrighted creatures like mind flayers and beholders
>MTG players.
the logo, tap and mana symbols
all corpos wish to be, to own, subcultures

>>24436671 (OP)
I had a goth gf once

My fixation was cause she was objectively the sweetest, funniest, most beautiful girl I'd ever met. Not cause she was goth, that didn't really do anything for me

Sadly she was also a mess mentally and we broke up

Say la vee

>>24437038
Why is AI MILFphobic? I want a big tiddy goth mommy.

>>24436671 (OP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJv-9mzg2BY
good shit

>>24436961
Those are men

>>24436695
you've obviously never interacted with goth kids in my school. I was into punk/hardcore then but always saw the goths as douchebag drug addicts. I was straight-edge (sorta) and into Minor Threat and Earth Crisis and what not.

>>24437037
>no visual identifiers for magic players
Anon...

>>24436671 (OP)
I remember goths in college.
there was a sort of... what, even.
goth slash punk slash new-age slash nu-hippie thing going on...
they all banded together, socially.
I liked the LOOK, don't get me wrong.
something different, nothing attracts like novelty.
My honest take on it?
it was an attention thing, especially for the girls into it. (novelty)
th guys? Tended to be guys, that...
weren't very successful in trad circles (this was redneck land, btw)
The more time I spent around the women though, in these subculturs.
They were very much like regular women.
dressed for novelty, and...
had this "supposedly deep, mysterious aura" they try-hard cultivated.
Like they were making this big STATEMENT, or something.
they weren't It was dress up fun, all year round, not just halloween.
run across them off campus, no one watching?
totally normal.
typical goth guy = skinny, pimples, no car no cash. But, somehow "better" for it. Okay, flex what you can
typical goth girl = I'm so different, I'm a mystery, Idon't even get myself, I'm so deeeeeep, mannnnn. and, shitty poetry/art.

>>24438779
example.
goth girl I new well.
on the way to another dorm room, in the girl's dorm.
hey... i know this girl. Door was cracked.
dressed like any regular chick at ollege, listening?
to TOTALLY pop music, dancing around.
>
she made me PROMISE and SWEAR... I wouldn;t tell anyone, I caught her out of "role", I guess.
Whatever,.
A guy lifts weights, and tries to act hard.
back then? some girls tried being goth.
no different. trying to stand out and have a crowd, they had an elevated position in.
hence, lot of fatties and uggos, in goth.
again, whatever.
but, do i just LOVE a girl to put the black lipstick, the black nail polish, the pancake makeup on? The clothes?
damn straight. Novelty.

>>24438779
>>24438786
Not all goths do the all black thing.
And plenty of us have clothes that are of different colors and that aren't all black. I've been dressing in black since I was a kid, but in my family photos I'm in "normal clothes". Everyone knows I only wear only black but through he years you get gifts for various people, a t-shirt from a family member or friend on vacation, grandma's Christmas sweater, PJ's from mom. You don't toss them out you wear them at home or on special occasions.
>she made me PROMISE and SWEAR... I wouldn't tell anyone, I caught her out of "role", I guess.
What year was this? That was pretty common among young goths back in the day. No one cares now, if anyone sees them not dressed as a goth.

>>24436671 (OP)
>What explains the internet's fixation on goth girls?
The desire to assimilate power by acquiring what is occult.

>>24436671 (OP)
It's unironically latent necrophilia. Their bodies remind men of how a corpse loses its natural hew when it dies as evidenced by >>24436932 and >>24436960

>>24436831
>>24436864
>mfw anxious AND avoidant

>>24436952
>as black and brown people have been apart of the goth scene from the very early beginning.
Lol. Literally nobody will ever believe this so just stop wasting your energy

>>24436671 (OP)
>>24436695
It's the only guarantor of style regardless of dressing up or down. It's the antipode of Manic Pixie Dream Girl. There's also a certain expectation of practicality and conscientiousness that follows from such fastidious attention to one's dress, and the presumption of more moody self-reflective and cold music tastes.

>>24436989
>D&D was stigmatized for the same reasons

That's more smelly sperg sexpest cachet.

>>24436831
Secure and Avoidant for me. What does that make me?

>>24436835
>but for the best aesthethic is pale skin, blue eyes and raven black hair.
Unfathomably keyed. I'm hailing this

>>24437038
when the niggas that create technology shit finna make some shit that can print bitches like that for real like 3d shit nigga

something about it being fashionable on tiktok (distanced from the real movement) and zoomers being raised in an alienated state by single moms

Pale skin with dark hair/clothes is hot, but the vast majority of girls with that look are BPDemons. The Goth type has the look while being conceptually the opposite of the BPDemon, aloof and reserved as opposed to outgoing and friendly but secretly absolutely batshit.
BPDemons aren't consistent enough or dedicated enough to actually pull off a style that takes as much effort as goth does, therefore the look becomes a signal that the chick in question cares about her looks, while also being willing to put in consistent effort.

Look at pic related. She could go for the goth look. but she doesn't. Now look beyond the girl, look at the background. The messy kitchen, the dead plants, the rubbish laying around.
That's a BPDemon.

>>24439624
Yeah but counterpoint: muh dick

>>24439514
Congratulations on making the most retarded comment in the entire thread. This one will be hard to beat.

>>24436714
It’s a joke. Stop taking yourself so seriously.

>>24436695
It's basically this. Dressing up as goth is to signal you aren't like the other girls. And men want a woman who isn't ordinary, especially the autists on the internet.

Of course it's so well known now precisely because the signal is false, whatever memetic pressure that created it from the 80s and 90s is gone and it's just a hollow fashion now.

>>24439624
>snake earrings and necklace
>psychotic eyes
Reminds me of this girl I once dated who was in an actual cult.

>>24440513
>>snake earrings and necklace
>>psychotic eyes
>Reminds me of this girl I once dated who was in an actual cult.
What do you mean by 'psychotic eyes'? Help me understand what you're seeing.

At this point is mostly just a hollow fashion aesthetic that had any depth or meaning scooped out decades ago.
People just like the look and it's not really deeper than that anymore.

>>24440559
But why do they like the look? There must be a deep psychological reason.

>>24440566
Theyre young and attractive. Gothness denotes certain interests some males also share + edgelordery. No one cares about ugly or old goths.

>>24440577
Also shyness

> What explains peoples’ interest in (cute girls)?
It’s a mystery. We’ll never know.

>>24439541
Why does everyone on this site think they fucking know everything? You're not even goth. Early post-punk, goth, cold wave, dark wave bands had black members, and fans, in both the UK and the US. I would list some and post pictures but next week there will be ten more anons posting the same stupid bullshit as you.

>>24436671 (OP)
Goth was emo was metal, they are a constant in the modern world.

>>24436932
I am *so* going to fap to this image. Directly.

>>24439502
>What year was this? That was pretty common among young goths back in the day.
>
I'd ballpark this, as around... 1990 *ish*.
my other, not exactly a critique, but I've noticed it.
Goth, punk, later trends.
"anon, why do you..."
"I'm being myself! I want to be different!"
I stand back and scratch my head. They all try to hard to be "different"? That, they end up all kind of looking the same. Which, is a curious thing.

>>24439719
>>>24439514
>Congratulations on making the most retarded comment in the entire thread. This one will be hard to beat.

not entirely.
witness the whole goth to vampire dress up thing. Same look. And its definitely meant to be sexually suggestive. A popular "goth pose" for a girl? You've seen more than on ITT already. Kneeling, hands behind the back. Classic "slave before master" pose. The studded leather S&M collars and wristcuffs, can;t be a coincidence.
>
And maybe its changed, but... I remember a preponderance of the "goth chicks" at college, having this... I don't know about the meaning of life, what do I mean or matter. Its just so difficult to develop a reason to even want to stay here. They gravitated towards lightweight degrees, like art and other such things. Hardly any in STEM. Couple computer-punks, was the extent of anything like that, in the CS-MATH department.

>>24441052
Yeah that sounds exactly right. I'd have been surprised if you said it was anywhere in 2000 especially after 2005. I think most 90s Goths have stories like that.
>They all try to hard to be "different"? That, they end up all kind of looking the same.
Being different together is exactly how subcultures, and other art movements (including literature genres), form and function lol. In the 80s and 90s goths were different and very rare, and very fringe. Now with the internet there's a lot less mystery but before people were being exposed to goth fashion, they'd see two or three in a record store, club, or mall and call them freaks and shout other insults at them.

>>24441080
Yes, entirely.
>A popular "goth pose" for a girl? You've seen more than on ITT already. Kneeling, hands behind the back.
Not really. Could very well be the first time I've seen this from a goth girl. I've seen it plenty of times from "normal" women, though.

>>24436831
Yeah man I’m such an Avoidant INFP R1b Scorpio 9w1 dark aryan western hunter gatherer sensitive young girthmaxxed vrilcel yoghurt male

>>24436671 (OP)
It's certainly not for good reason. Goth women in some way invert the typical attraction model, I don't think anyone would argue against that. The basic association at the root of the goths' appeal is between women and negative emotions like sadness and anger. For a well adjusted man, a woman is supposed to be a source of happiness and delight and this expressed aesthetically with bright colors. For maladjusted men, who like to use the internet typically, a woman who associates herself with sadness is probably more approachable or "conceivable" as a partner.

>>>/mu/126614360
Any of you fuckers actually there or are you just fantasizing?

>>24441479
Like this guy >>24436704 and this guy >>24436762 and probably >>24436835 as well.
>>24439514
I think this guy is closer to what is at the root of the whole obsession. Necrophilia basically appeals to young men whose narrative of sex consists of contest or strife, which is a common result of a broken home. Logically, the peace of death represented by the corpse makeup would appeal most to those whose lives have been constantly marred by conflict.

>>24441479
>Goth women in some way invert the typical attraction model
It's just a costume used to attract a mate. Nothign more nothing less. When goths inevitably become lame again you won't see a single woman dressing like one

>>24437037
>There are no visual identifiers for D&D and MTG players.
How about being 300 lbs and wearing a fedora?

>>24440528
NTA but look up Sanpaku. She's not there but she's really close, >>24436960 is actually worse.
>>24439719
>one of the most famous goths is literally Death from Sandman

>>24441952
lame response. not attentive to my actual claim. As people who have some interest in mating (a group you may be excluded from) we aren't crazy to ask questions like "why THIS costume and not another?" I guess your answer will be something like "it just happens because of social trends," to which I will reply that you have still not really answered the question of why THIS is a trend and not some other thing. I bet this is the only thread you've posted in because the ones about books "scare" you.

>>24436671 (OP)
Goth and emo type girls are a way of consoling the Western chudcel's mind. It isn't that anybody was weak and furthered a weird offshoot of societal decay, it's that by being themselves they created a whole alternate culture of big tiddy cybergothgirls to lust over that would have never happened otherwise. Success.

>>24436809
Hope she sees this bro.

>>24441510
>Necrophilia basically appeals to young men whose narrative of sex consists of contest or strife, which is a common result of a broken home.
This is some of the dumbest, most ignorant shit I've ever read and I love the way you write it with complete confidence. In the future be ashamed to give your opinion.

>>24442035
At least he made an assertion besides "nuh-uh, and I'm mad"

>>24436671 (OP)
Oooh! Pick me! Pick meee!

I can answer this!

I would like to fuck a living dead woman.
Why is this question in lit?

>>24436671 (OP)
There was a time maybe around the 1980s where "goth" actually existed as a legitimate subculture, but now it's just girls wearing makeup and dark clothing. Not very many guys are into it (hence it not being considered mainstream). Personally, I dislike it.

>>24442038
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

>>24442068
What are you a court judge? I think the dead body is pretty.

People usually stereotype the Sun as being masculine and the Moon as feminine, but I feel like both masculinity and femininity have solar and lunar faces. Solar men and women are basically just gigachads and gigastacies, while a lunar man would be something like an artist, someone who doesn't play by society's rules and isn't conventionally successful or masculine, but his creativity and technical prowess is beyond any shadow of doubt, and thus represents a different, but not lesser aspect of masculinity.

Goth women represent lunar femininity which has a similar relation to solar femininity.

I believe there's a much easier explanation.
There's a continuing tendency with beauty standards, and goths take the niche of being out of this world, sort of.
You wouldn't see the Platonic ideal of a goth chick being like 40 years old, you wouldn't see a goth chick being old at all, you wouldn't see her doing "ungothic" things, and "ungothic" things would largely constitute as fairly normal to us. The goth chick drags you out of normalcy while also still presenting it as an attractive thing. We love a bit of stepping outside of the border at times: it's just the most tolerable thing there is as it also takes care of your attraction/attachment issues as well.
What should be a bit concerning, though, is that we returned to it for some reason. It may be a fad, a smaller revival, but usually you would have another type take the niche. It's a bit emblematic of the modern condition with how much we're stuck in people's childhood times as there's no conception of a future actually being better. Kinda rhymes with the lesser gyaru/2000s style "revival" in some art stuff: older people long for the 1990s again, youngsters want the 2000s again.
The future thing, I suppose, would be just straight up angelic chicks. Still out of this world, but it steps out of the world in a different way. The gothic style drags you out into the underworld, angelics drag you out onto bright peaks. Light hair, translucent skin, very thin, very bright and absolutely desexualized style. Talking about softcore revised esoteric Christianity (we haven't yet reached the full potential of Sophia the Wisdom of God, female saints and Russian Silver Age thought) and shit. Very medieval feels, "love is an extension of chivalry", writing cute poems again, all that. Maybe it's already out there, IDK.

>>24442355
I like your style, guy.

>>24436671 (OP)
I just want to fuck dead cunt.

>>24441510
My friend, I am >>24436762 and I can assure you that I don't want to fuck goth women because they look like a corpse or whatever the fuck you're on about.

>>24442237
no dumbass it's because they want to sex cadavers or something

I think the people who are implying necrophilia are just projecting.

>>24436671 (OP)
You’re thinking too hard bro

>>24442355
There are a ton of elder goths, that are in their 70s and 60s now. 40 isn't old either. 40 year old goth women are still hot, you meet a 40 year old goth girl and you're more likely to go for her than the 20 year old for the simple fact that she's more likely to hold a conversation with you.

https://youtu.be/AqxbtE1f_pA

>>24442666
People really listen to this shit, huh? I fucking hate this whispering, scratching shit. Reminds me of garbage arthouse film sound design and just triggers me.

>>24436809
>Normal nice people who aren't into kinky sex
as someone whos fucked a lot of goth girls since the 90's you'd be dead wrong here my friend.

>>24442940
You're most likely going to clubs and events that host kink friendly nights to meet those women. I'm talking about actual goths, not just people in leather and corsets. There's some overlap but not much, often times these things get lumped together because of the way people dress and the fact that they're all on the fringes or society. I have some friends that are goth and kinky but most are naturally heteronormal, vanilla, and monogamous. Again, are you even goth? You can't give a proper answer on these things unless you've actually spent time in the subculture. And btw I'm not vanilla, which is another reason I know that most goth women are not into kinky sex.

>>24437176
>corpo
stop using that lame ass cyberpunk 2077 term. corp is literally 1 letter shorter too...

>>24442986
Nope, I just am naturally pale with green eyes and bleached white hair, so I attract that time even if it's not me. Most of them are very into the sexuality part of their identity. It's significantly different to being with women from mainstream culture.

Men online tend to be much more introverted and pessimistic than regular men, and far more than regular women. A goth girl feels less alien and more possible to connect with because being dark and disturbed is part of her identity even if only cosmetically

>>24436960
>It is a role amputated from its original context and defiled, coopted by digital succubi

Hate this shit. Egirls really do ruin everything they touch...

>>24436809
>it isn't necessarily sexual

If you've only had one or two goth friends or girlfriends then you probably assume the scene based on that. Most people can't write a manifesto on it but assuming they're all wrong is just accusing them of the same thing you're doing.

>>24443472
goth sub-culture has very little to do with sex
but go on keep your fantasies

>>24436714
Because Jung, like a lot of authors loved by pseuds, presents interesting ideas with little to no justification as to why they're true

>>24444105
true, he should have done a peer reviewed and fact-checked study before opening his mouth.

>>24436671 (OP)

My fetish is contrast

I've had multiple chess pieces surgically removed from my colon

>>24436671 (OP)
I actually think the "big titty goth" meme was an excellent case of spontaneous widespread cooperative collective consciousness.

BEAR WITH ME HERE. The American gothic is a counter culture that was likely mostly pioneered in 90s/00s by bullied girls. Naturally because girls respond to bullying by differentiating, as do men, but more often co-symptomatically develop eating disorders. Think of how many scene/goth girls were obese back in the day?
t.millenial

So these girls who went goth do often have large breasts, but it's often because they're also overweight.

So their adaptive response was a decentralized, grassroots, mass participation PR campaign to mythologize the "big titty goth" to fetish status.

Now, effectively, there is a cultural incentive for the male to alter their internal algorithm for valuable sexual partners.

Men will loosen the limit on the LBS for the metric of highest acceptable BMI, if the girl is a goth with big titties. The calculus allows for it because of the perceived value of a goth with big tits.
So what if she's a little chunky she meets other criteria that are sexually valuable. We all have individual preferences that work the same way, it's redheads for some, etc...

Women have always been a higher conscious class than men. The male mind tends to be more standoffish, autonomous, and competitive. Men don't generally attempt to aid the collective at small cost to the individual.

We as men aren't as likely to identify as a group as readily and to cooperate like this. And it is, no joke, partially because we are not structurally oppressed as a class of people, so there is no social or material pressure to cooperate that way. Men just have it a bit easier.

Too bad my fellow men are too blind to the dogmatic internet age culture war to just think together. It would take acknowledging our privilege though.

>>24442653
I'll concede here on the age. To be honest, every older chick I've met who wasn't into normal things was into esoteric Indian bullshit instead. Maybe it's just a later trend in my (post-Soviet) country so the older ones are like 30 year olds instead. Not enough mileage for me here, unfortunately.

>>24436671 (OP)
It's simply a fantasy of hoes that don't behave like hoes. IRL they always did, even in the earliest goth subculture, anyone who really interacted with it knows how fake it always was (c.f. Jhonen Vasquez sperging the fuck out about it in JHTM for one example).

>>24445475
Continuing on the old age things, one interesting thing for me is just how dissonant the mommy thing is in contrast to actual 40 year olds. When youngsters talk about mommies, they don't necessarily talk about older chicks, they just mean the mommying attitude which is funnily enough not even present among older chicks. I love them myself, and many of them, who are also actual moms, are much livelier, sometimes even tomboyish compared to whatever the perception of "mommy-girl-friend" is.

I'm sorta inclined to believe that whatever the mommy gf/hagmaxxing trend represents, it is also as out of this world as goth gfs are: there's an introduction of instruments of surrender which were fairly normal and articulated for the older generation, but not really present in the current tendency. Like, the older people know that the world is turbulent and that one of the best feelings out there is to love someone so much you can comfortably confide in them and always have a safe haven, but for the newer gens the idea of confiding in is a threat in itself: you're not opening to others, you're being found out. Ultimately, however, surrendering is a necessity in one way or practice or another.

So there may be a little error in judgement: because you "know" that older people are more versed in love, you don't try to look for these qualities separately from the people: they're older, so they must be more mature. It may be easier (if you're on the same wavelength, the barriers are actually flimsier) and not necessarily that bad (love is love, after all), but the issue is that of course these things don't necessarily match. You may find a 45 year old who hasn't mentally grown past 18, and it also isn't necessarily bad and you may learn something from it, but you're still placing limits on yourself. "mommy gf" follows the same thing: since the last thing you've felt haven-ly in is your mother, you should continue where you've left with another person who has the same things in her. Again, not necessarily bad, but you have to understand what the package is to understand what the toll paid for it is.

Both "hags" and "moms" are out of this world in a way that they contrast themselves to the Current in presenting vulnerability as a pretty nice thing to have at times, and people are going crazy from being in constant defense mode. However, we're still in the process of configuring what "this world" is, so even though we may see good solutions, they may in fact be solving wrong problems. Also, the world-alien chick may complete you (even if it may be a very lopsided way) and that's great, but the process of completing the other side may be arduous, fruitless and doomed to fail due to how love is out there. Love is not a positive agent: keep that in mind.

>>24445486
I'm like 100% sure Jhonen's issue with goths is that he keeps being mistaken for one. That's a pretty old school mindset from other alternative cultures or music scene. Even very early goths, musicians and fans, hated being called goth. The label didn't really catch on until the late 80s or early 90s. And Jhonen is 50 born in '74 so it checks out. It's extra funny because one of his most famous characters still falls victim to goth allegations.

>>24442653
Angela Benedict is a mid 40s goth who makes youtube vids on the topic and she's hot as fuck. I also like that she's very gatekeepy about it.

>>24446036
>I also like that she's very gatekeepy about it.
As she should be. A lot of the outsider misconceptions people have about goths, or being goth, the same typical opinions that are being expressed in this thread, she talks about in her videos.

>>24444997
>We as men aren't as likely to identify as a group as readily and to cooperate like this. And it is, no joke, partially because we are not structurally oppressed as a class of people, so there is no social or material pressure to cooperate that way. Men just have it a bit easier.
Really?
try putting up a sign on your webpage, for store manager training program that says, in bold letters...
"Black women need not apply"
(or, anything similar)
You know what happens. People go fucking apeshit.
But? Fine and dandy for it to say...
"White straight men, need not apply"
everyone applauds.
There simply IS NOT, a power structure, of patriarchal oppression.
The reverse, though? Definitely.
we're all readers and some writers here, right?
cruise the internet for lit agents and publishers.
I did.
glanced at every web page of them
More than one?
"We do NOT accept unsolicited manuscripts, they go straight into the garbage. DO not bother, we only work exclusively through agents.
Right below that?
"We are accepting any and all unsolicited manuscripts, from POC and other marginalized persons"
If that isn't a barrier to entry? I don't know what is.

>>24436671 (OP)
UHH AH AH AH I'M CASSLIIIIC

>>24446293
Can you try not writing like an insufferable faggot for a single post?
Kill yourself.

>>24446293
>But? Fine and dandy for it to say...
>"White straight men, need not apply"
>everyone applauds.
This doesn't happen, even in the most liberal of cities or town.
It's also illegal to post shit like that.
https://www.eeoc.gov/prohibited-employment-policiespractices
Why do you fucking losers keep making up these fantasy scenarios?

Pale and attractive = desirable
Dark makeup = makes eyes look larger, sets of lips against pale skin, attractive features

They look hot, that's it (the hot ones that is)

>>24446293
I'm a reader and a writer and there is most definitely a structural oppressive apparatus. It's very well documented, and has historically oppressed black women disproportionately.

If white men experience oppression it's usually because of class oppression. The inequality of workplace fatalities between the sexes disproportionately effects blue collar level workers and is a result of class structure more than it is patriarchal structure.

Or are you going to whine that there isn't class oppression too? Because that would mean being an ooky spooky Marxist.

>>24446386
Again, I ask: why is AI MILFphobic? I want a goth MOMMY, not a big titty child.

>>24436671 (OP)
Couldn't it be some sort of representation of a dark feminine archetype aligned with hidden emotional turmoil, decay (in the sallowness/paleness of skin), the gothic, and estrangement from society? Compare to the modern alt girl

>>24441510
I agree, I love goth women because they remind me of dead people. I love when people die and their hair and lips turn black and when morticians dress them up in fishnets and chokers, it gets me so hard. This is obviously because of my broken home life and desire for necrophilic inner peace, not because I want a hot counter culture chick to bob up and down on my cock.

I think it's because global society collectively died with the internet and christianity was the first casualty, christianity was probably at its strongest in the late 60s right around time internet was being designed. 911 was just the big moment where society was finished integrating in one melting pot. We are all going home to native cultures and goth is some europe culture outside cultures can't into, also westerners being first exposed to the internet. The internet and tech is all fake feeling now cause the tech oligarchs that took over the internet have been trying to force some forced christian nationalism mask over decaying globalism and they are using AI/algorithms to go about it. My guess is goth culture will never be adopted by outside groups hip hop will never have another eminem non east asian people into weaboo stuff will be mocked more. Christianity will probably move along for another hundred years or so surviving off africa until they go back to voodoo I guess.

>>24446690
We already heard you retarded brown dyke. You can't stop this "necrophilia" bullshit just because you're seething at pale people on screen.

>>24446293
White men on reddit, 4chan, and Twitter would absolutely go ape shit over that too. I used to browse /tv/ and that entire board is constantly complaining about anti white discrimination. We have a pretty strong identity and it's only getting stronger as our collective control on power wanes.
Honestly I find it a bit cringe at times. I always felt that a pleasant aspect of European heritage was a kind of soft cultural arrogance that didn't need to express itself overtly. This confidence allowed many of us to enjoy the fruits of other cultures without feeling threatened by them.
Nowadays, white guys with profile pics of Greek statues have all the insane nationalist fervor of an Indian or a Chinese. This culminates in frankly retarded threads about how nobody from this or that area of the Earth has ever produced good literature or how we must all eschew anime for our cultural purity. It's a bit embarrassing. Political populism arises from the same roots.

>>24442237
I'm a sublunary cave goblin

>>24436671 (OP)
Nailed it.

>>24446690
>fishnets and chokers
They do that?

>>24436952
>black and brown people have been apart of the goth scene from the very early beginning
Jews, yes. Nogs? Barely, if at all.Zoomners trying to superimpose their American identitarian ideology onto scenes and movements they were and are not a part of is irritating. We are very aware of jewish academia's attempt to retcon and superimpose or exagerate the role of minorities (especially niggers) in practically everything ever but you should not simply accept such claims as proof.
Please go to Whitby and observe the Oldgoths and talk to them. They will laugh in your face.
At it's core it is a movement that drew on European aesthetics and literature and the subtle influences of more pessimistic European philosophy - as the more intelligent poster that you replied to positied - is very notable.
>Simply it belongs to anyone who likes the music and wants to be goth.
As usual, once something hits America the deeper themes are dispersed and it becomes shallow to the point of consumer tastes.

>>24442355
>straight up angelic chicks
They're already doing that

>>24436671 (OP)
I just think they're pretty

>>24436671 (OP)
goth women look like they're loose and men today simp for whores instead of stoning them

>>24436743
Why aren't you?

>>24436671 (OP)
Porn addiction

>>24436671 (OP)
Basically an exaggerated form of a multi-century western feminine ideal.
>dark hair, pale skin
>aloof and mysterious, but not conceited or capricious
>thoughtful, but not arrogant or domineering about it
>dismissive of and disdainful towards typical feminine frivolity

Of course these are just memes attached to a fashion trend rather than descriptions of actual goth subculture members, but people pine for an idea.

>>24448265
What's the appeal of looking like a fucking child?

>>24449440
youth = beauty.
youth = triggers reproduction urge. Fertile, healthy.
older women have to use make up. To chieve what a young girl can, with none.
the blushing cheeks? The rouge.
The lips? the lipstick.
Mascara and false eyelashes? to hide th tiny crinkles that show prime breeding age is past.
Makeup is a fake display, to attract sex.

>>24449440
>What's the appeal of looking like a fucking child?
14 year olds are not kids and it's normal to find them attractive
18 is completely fucking arbitrary and ((((they)))) only established it as the legal age so that young people burn their bonding instincts on casual sex with randos instead of getting married early and starting a family in their best years

>>24449440
Not childlike, doll-like. There is a difference.

>>24440600
Do black goths and black punkrockers realize niggers stink? And are they mad at niggers for making their people look bad?

>>24441952
Goths are lame though. Mainstream women don't dress like that. Only fringe alternative girls do it and usually because they're unattractive by conventional standards in the first place.

Their popularity is an internet phenomenon, the same as the popularity for femboys, trans girls, or pegging. We're talking about the counter cultural mainstream here, don't get it confused with the cultural mainstream.
If you went some places with a goth girl or with any of the other types of girls I mentioned, people would see you guys as weird and out there.

>>24449702
>14 year olds are not kids and it's normal to find them attractive
someone invented a word I think its "heebephile" (spelling?) and they act like thinking a hot teen chick is in fact hot, is a mental illness. Way to fire, take something everyone naturally does, and call it mental illness.

>>24450488
Pretty image. saved. thanks, anon.

>>24449702
>it's normal to find them attractive
Cope, pedo.
>>24450488
Dolls are child-like.

>>24450640
lol where do u live sweetheart. you're so innocent i love it

>>24449440
Do you really need me to type it out?

>>24436671 (OP)
Early to mid 2000s cartoons

>>24436671 (OP)
The normgroid obsession, the gay meme posting, is “safe horny”. Goth girls seems dominant to them, and these, for lack of a better word, nu males are ashamed of their sexuality because of social pressure, etc. Im sure they have mommy issues as well

>>24436944
Keyed

>>24454345
Nigga, what are you talking about. It's because they're hot, that's it.

>>24454716
Appeal to “cool nigger”

>>24440600
Very late and gay and you probably won't even see this but the roots of Gothic culture (also known as "the very beginning") are in Eastern Euro orthodoxy, and the sad, bleak, moronic vibe of that time, era and literature (something browns or blacks had 0 involvement or influence in.)

>>24455914
** the literature of that time and era

>>24436960
Bang on dude, this modern revival kicked off by pornbrained zoomies is a simulacrum of the original goth women that their young brains latched onto in the 2000s when it was in its twilight years.

>>24448265
>>24446661
Does frilly stuff like this appeal to the male gaze? Gothic is best when it is frilly and muted and mourning and not going out of their way to absorb orgone energy from the porn addicted. Which all the tiktok goth girls missed the memo on. An aesthetic that worships grief, mourning, and decay is antithetical to the virile lust of the modern e-girl

>>24440513
>>24440513
The husk is a fair antique in itself. I still enjoy seeing it on display. However, ideas never die. Its spirit fills some other movement or rests until it is rediscovered. Perhaps in our lives we will witness a rebirth of the Goth spirit.
Then place bets on how long before it dies again.

>>24456844
Former is male gaze, latter is not.
Like all things, there are contexts which alter the nature of perception.

>>24439513
I may be reading one of the gratest revelations of our time

Goths are neotenic. It's that simple.

>>24440600
you’re right + that doesn’t make goth a ‘black’ culture in the slightest. goth and ‘alternative’ about as white as gangsta rap is black, because behind both those musics and subcultures are Jews in record labels using the image and charisma of music and a band to project an exaggerated image that consumers will mold themselves off. Goth is exaggerated whiteness and Eastern European grim aesthetics just as rap is an exaggerated blackness. The existence of eminem doesn’t mean rap is white

>>24442355
/thread

Nta but was was black culture before, before the 90ies? I genuinely don't know

>>24457273
>>24457273
As far as the music component goes, it was focused around blues, jazz, rock, r&b, along with doo wop and pop as well. Underlining it all was gospel music and the church. Just like now in 2025 black Americans pretty much lead cultural changes within western music and speech. Black culture is pretty nuanced and there's a ton of research, videos, books, articles, and even government files from the FBI on black American culture. But overall it's not any different from white Americans any noticeable differences are superficial, black and white Americans are like 95% the same people, even down to genetics, sharing the same family members.

>>24457418
AMERICANS ARE NIGGERS AND LOVE NIGGER COCK

>>24457439
okay thanks anon

Bumping to read later, but I see a lot of unsatisfying answers.

>>24436671 (OP)
Back in my day all you had to do was namedrop some terrible philosopher like Camus, or Celine, claim Vincent Price was your favorite actor, and pretend to like the Bauhaus, or at least pretend to tolerate them and claim more patrician tastes, and you could fuck a hot goth girl. Even if you were a dork like me who went to church and wore docker slacks and button collar shirts.

Interesting that only the aesthetic remains. They're all supporting BLM and listening to lil yachty or whoever. The sort of intelectual, sort of counterculture element has totally faded away.

>>24457886
Oh yeah, another surefire way to grab some goth gash was to claim that all the Edward Scissorhand, and Nightmare Before Christmas fangirls were ridiculous "poseurs" (it was very imortant to spell it with a "u"), while maintaining the films themselves were actually good.

>>24439513
>The desire to assimilate power by acquiring what is occult.
What does this even mean?

>>24458687
People think goths are into magic.
Some are, most aren't.

>>24440600
Yes, blacks invented everything and were first to do everything and they were everywhere.

4. Countercultural Appeal

Rebellion Against Norms: Goth resists mainstream beauty standards, cheerfulness, and conformity — making it perennially attractive to outsiders, creatives, and critical thinkers.

Safe Space for Outsiders: It offers a home to those who feel alienated from dominant culture — a role that doesn’t disappear with changing trends.

>>24436671 (OP)
Women who are into "the raped" subcultures have an enormous tendency to be willing to pretend to love (by fucking) unnattractive men. Admittedly the catch is you have to have some semblance of employment, enough to buy her taco bell or whatever it is these stupid whores eat, but it is still sex. Any subculture that is "the raped" enough that it genuinely just doesn't exist anymore like paganism, atheism, goth, emo, scene, "dark academia", political centrism or "le girls who le play le videogames" is prime real estate for this. Weak men will just scan a room and immediately know what hobbies and interests they need to pretend to have to get pussy from a girl who understands sex from the standpoint of being molested by her own father. There really is no mystery to it, just mediocrity and sorrow.

>>24436952
Bait is only funny when there's a reason to believe it's not bait.

>>24450782
>>24449702
Pedophilia is genuinely the most spiritually Jewish thing there is, especially if you're white
>I want your goyim child to be mentally scarred in ways that demonstrably lead men to turn into faggots and pedos themselves and women to turn into 'hypersexual' onlyfans whores with BPD
You get horny over the idea of corrupted innocence and want to act that fantasy out in the single most putrid way possible. No amount of mortifyingly unfunny spam-memes or anonymity will change what that makes you. Every knee will bow. You are kikes.

>>24459102
This entire thread proves my point btw, by proxy of any of you seriously trying to make out like it's anything else because you're ashamed of how you fell for it and will continue to in future.

I'm a metalhead, a Halloween obsessive, and a big fan of microbudget horror flicks. The archetype seems to imply a woman who would share these interests, although I barely listen to goth rock myself, you'd still expect overlap in other areas. But the posts above are correct that it's just a vacuous fashion statement more often than not. And conversely, you'll find plenty of blonde stacies who turn out to have super macabre interests in true crime or cryptids or whatever.
Also the style is indeed genuinely attractive in a vacuum because dark/pale contrast, heavy ornamentation, and a slightly aristocratic quality are just broadly appealing.

>>24459117
>Pedophilia is genuinely the most spiritually Jewish thing there is, especially if you're white
>>I want your goyim child to be mentally scarred in ways that demonstrably lead men to turn into faggots and pedos themselves and women to turn into 'hypersexual' onlyfans whores with BPD
>You get horny over the idea of corrupted innocence and want to act that fantasy out in the single most putrid way possible. No amount of mortifyingly unfunny spam-memes or anonymity will change what that makes you. Every knee will bow. You are kikes.
Which is of course why A-L-L cultures marries women to men typically w-a-y before they were 18. It was the historical norm, until fairly recent modern times. So fuck off.

>>24446661
That's a man

>>24459172
>slightly aristocratic quality
Every rich girl Stacey type with well connected family I've ever met dressed like an ugg boots and pumpkin spice latte live laugh love basic bitch

>>24436809
>I’m goth, but not a girl
Just say faggot next time

>>24436963
The goths I knew were all poor as fuck

>>24437037
Goth is as much about "white"(European) culture and experiences as rap and hip-hop are about the black experience. It just so happens that the European philosophical and romantic ideas of old are not entirely focused around "muh racial uhpreshun". Go figure. So just because Goth kids didn't always walk around with a chip on their shoulder about race or racial politics doesn't mean they weren't participating in a subculture defined by it's relation to European ethnic cultural practices and attitudes. Yours is a very short sighted view that is symptomatic of the cultural rot of American capitalism. Culture as commodity. The lefty kids whining about cultural appropriation sort of have a point in this regard, not to say it shouldn't be allowed necessarily, but that it IS happening, for better or worse. European Paganism, Romanticism, Pessimism, and the poetry and fiction that Goth culture springs forth from are inseparable from their historical roots. These roots have little to nothing to do with Africa or African Americans. The closest example I can think of that would relate in theme would be Voodoo, as it is an often maligned "dark" religious practice born out of resentment for catholic teachings that were forced on slaves. Like some goths, it's practitioners combine traditional Christian/Catholic symbols with their own pagan religious practices until it becomes it's own "outsider" religion, sort of defined by it's relationship to Christianity. That being said, I don't think most people consider Voodoo and Goth to be synonymous subcultures, nor do I think they should, unless of course all goth means is that you are vaguely "spooky". Again, that'd be culture as pure commodity. Someone like Eminem will always be seen as less valid as a hip-hop/rap artist by some black people, and I can't blame them for feeling that way. A random black guy with little connection to hood culture will usually still feel more culturally connected to rap music than a random white guy that had it hard in Detroit. It's like the other anon said, just because Eminem is white doesn't mean rap/hip-hop are separable from black American culture, or the African musical roots that influence them, and the history that goes with that. Same for rock/blues, it's very much associated with white people today, but any college kid will talk your ear off about their black roots. To attempt to see things differently would be an act of willful ignorance. Of course, that doesn't mean that we all need to stay in our own cultural place, never to share our traditions or ideas with the perceived "outsiders", only that we should recognize where these things come from, as we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Unless, of course, you were raised isolated in a hole somewhere, in which case the only cultural baggage you carry is the language you speak, if any at all. Is that enviable? I think not.

other than all the arguing, which... go on and have more fun with that.
But, would it not be prudent, for those who have them to post *moar* hot goth chicks, in their oh so cute outfits. Just, for the sake of research and all.

>>24455914
>>24457241
>>24462479
>Actual goths who were there at the very start of the genre
>The the subculture spawned out of punk-rockers liking a single spooky song about an actor who played Dracula. Many types of people helped to develop the music and look, none of us really though about race, we all just wanted to wear black and look dead and listen to dark music. Some random journalist called us goths and it stuck.
>4chan nerds
>Actually it's about whiteness and how sad white people are and how Jews make money. And how pale skin and dark hair, and big boobs makes my peepee hard.

Imagine you are given a blank slate girl and you have to turn her into the perfect goth succubi, what would be your method and end goal?

>>24436671 (OP)
>>24437624
Patrician music taste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWppZbbQFMo

>>24463265
Japanese gothic rock has some good stuff
https://youtu.be/48Q3Q5SjdfQ?si=dx2RFic28mZE3-Pj

>>24436714
Because psychoanalysis

>>24446661
>narod ru
We really love j-rock for some reason

>>24448211
This is what happens when americans (60% of which are functionally illiterate) are allowed to speak. What happened when mutts started making forums?
It was called Something Awful and it was full of white middle class Americans. Almost zero Europeans. It was so painfully cringe and unfunny that moot fled from it and created 4chan and none of the people who fled ever came back.

The same applies to Stormfront, which was so ineffective at propaganda that a bunch of redditfrog-spamming retards from /pol/ went on to shape the entire west's dissident movements while stormfront did... nothing. When Americans wanted to join in on the fun and do some epic greenfrog posting like the cool kids on /pol/, they cringemaxxed with the kekistani hwndu garbage. Or Q for the older demographic. Neither of these exist or can be made to exist in European spheres because we're not tone deaf autists.

Yes, just like you I desperately wish for an American firewall where you finally fuck off and are made to interact with just your fellow mutts around you. No pollination from Europeans, just a bunch of shitskins going on a reddit spiral about how great and powerful and diverse America is. It would be so demoralizing that you would crawl your mutt ass to whichever European imageboard you're allowed to access. I really genuinely wish that this would happen so that you got your empirical proof that you fucking suck.

>>24465107
you sound as if you are one of those people that...
wear the turtleneck
thin rimmed glasses (probably non-prescription)
fedora
camelhair jacket (with elbow patches mandatory)
a goatee
and gesture about with a pipe you never seem to light
you could say ALL of what you said? with less shitty of an attitude.
typical smug euro-fag.
all pontification and pusillanimous pride, little of it deserved.
translate this into whatever nigger language,
that are over-running your european country.
they might fall for your pseudo-intellectualism.

how is this fucking thread still up every time I visit this board

>>24436671 (OP)
I do believe there's some sort of primordial archetype of a dark woman who's more aligned with things that are taboo or transgressive, who carries with her some sort of forbidden wisdom, rejected by society. Think witches. The gothic itself deals with this kind of stuff. Monsters, aesthetics of grief and decay and emotional turbulence. As for why a large subset of men like them? Either a kind of death drive response, a fascination with the morbid, or porn addiction. It's curious how those who are most vocal about this fetishism of the modern goth dommy mommy (a modern hallucinated archetype) are typically low value males

>>24466078
That's the ago old trope, of "The Female Mystic"
She will typically have some weird magical or mystical power. Either because the "secret knowledge" was given to her, usually by some old woman mystic, or more usually... just born with "the ability" or "the power".
Its a cheap trick trope.
Example? I think it was Halle Berry, in maybe it was Red Dragon.
They need the mindreader female (Berry)
Typical "female mystic" trope character.
All you GET? Is a shit ton of screen time.....
"He... he... he won't let me in!"
over and over. All "drama", and nothing else.
Once you show someone the female mystic trope?
They will instantly recognize it and point it out to others, it can't be missed once known.
The goth women (1990 style) cultivated a look and feel to them, to play female mystic.
When you trace belief and fear of ghosts and spirits? You will always find an older woman at the ROOT of it all. She has her (supposed) "power" or "secret knowledge". Its makes her the center of attention, and everyone has to come to here for the special advice and teaching.
So called "magic"? Same thing.

>>24466078
Most people believe that this all comes out from primitive man, noticing only women could make babies. Absent any knowledge or technology, it is fascinating and seems magical. Women can literally "create a new life" where none was before. All of women's so-called special powers? Flow out from this. Female intuition, female prerogative, etc.
>
its entirely rational, given what primitive man had to work with.

>>24466216
When you look at the creation myths of various cultures, that tracks. See Inanna in Babylonian culture. The curious thing is how more primitive cultures have a stronger matriarchal presence in both their religion and society, but this shifts further to patriarchal deities as they advance in terms of technology

>>24442355
>What should be a bit concerning, though, is that we returned to it for some reason. It may be a fad, a smaller revival, but usually you would have another type take the niche.
>It's a bit emblematic of the modern condition with how much we're stuck in people's childhood times as there's no conception of a future actually being better.
I generally think you're right on the money except the above sentence. I think some of it can be attributed to that, but with Gen Z, we see "nostalgia" (if it can even be called that) for eras they weren't even alive for. I think it speaks to demographic decline more than anything, that we're at a point where there aren't enough young people to have any real youth culture. What they are inundated with is imagery from past generations, specifically the 80's and 90's. As the population ages, there's less youth energy. I don't think we're going to see a Zoomer or Gen A equivalent of something like hair metal.

>>24467642
> I think some of it can be attributed to that, but with Gen Z, we see "nostalgia" (if it can even be called that) for eras they weren't even alive for.

Yeah, I should have worded it better. What we see here is indeed nostalgia for a non-existent past, but I think it's caused more by no one possessing the ability to make a weird-charge that makes things cool from the present, so you would have to fall back not to your childhood (the 2000s, where you'd be an Xbox kid or something), but instead to the previous "cool adult" period (the 1990s). It's a bit harder for me to project on the whole West due to my post-Soviet country experiencing the goth boom in the 2000s, but you kinda get the idea. The "now" is not weird enough, you bring back the big weird thing from the past to compensate.

> I think it speaks to demographic decline more than anything, that we're at a point where there aren't enough young people to have any real youth culture.
There may also be that, but I believe the main thing we have with modern youth is like an "altered quality" (idk) of things. I'd say it's not youth culture dissolving, but more like fragmenting into a very high number of things you can be a part of at once.

I may be biased since I write a lot about the Web on the side, but I think the crucial blow to things was dealt by the Internet. Back then you may have had to join the local skinhead/goth/emo club just for the ability to talk to others/form your identity/get chicks. Because there's a greater "community" on the Internet now, the need to be a part of a local whole is unnecessary. You may be the only goth boy in town, but that's fine. You may have more in common with some zestman from Guatemala than anyone in your class.

There's also no need for conflict with others, since the sense of local has dissipated. The "ayy, what district are you from?" thing has disappeared entirely in where i live. No conflicts — no resistance — more acceptance. I don't think there's gonna be more things like Siouxsie Sioux going with a swastika armband to spite her parents because there wouldn't be a spite charge that is heavy enough to make you wear the insignia of people who tried to destroy you before. What you will have is that everyone is a bit more weird (putting mini-dakimakuras on their bags, openly "yearning" for some anime twinks in public), but just weird enough to not scare their parents.

> I don't think we're going to see a Zoomer or Gen A equivalent of something like hair metal.
I sorta agree, but for different reasons. What zoomers will probably have is (provided the fluid gender tendency continues) a thing that was as weird to us as our parents back in the 80s, but with a different vector. Rave revivalism, even stronger kink culture, emphasis on body fluidity, lots of transgression/modification. The main two difficulties it'll have is either looping back to step 1 into 90s rave and arriving nowhere or being so ugly no one can ever get attracted to it.

>>24467908
Can't post pictures due to some things on 4chan/Internet's end, but to expand on new overworld/underworld culture things that may arise out there, i've got some music videos to illustrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXUoMJs80RQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yibmu-F_Qxs

Here's the underworld thing. Its word is "transgression". Its goal is to violate the rules of the world in order to reshape them. It tries to sit in the chair as firmly as possible so that the world around it changes rather than they themselves do. Apart from looking like a decrepit industrial complex, the singing thing in the videos is androgynous, and not being to determine which biological origin it has from a glance is a part of the image. Its body is modified with steel spikes to appear dangerous. There's a lot of rubber in there, glistening, snug around the skin, probably feels good when you take it off. The distortions add to the image: at no point you're sure exactly what you're looking at. Body modification leads to dehumanization: dogmen on a leash, cyborg entities. "A quantum of sexual frustration that is heavy enough to collapse a star" in the lyrics. However, you may note that there isn't anything new individually: most things have already been out on a spin in the 90s. That is probably the biggest problem here: loop or continuation, the future is unclear. You can't deny that they *do* look like freaks, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjIrHjN8t80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWKmiTwjjHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K17LPihGShU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoIC9KQZGIc (less relevant but it sorta fits the thing from a different tendency)
(There are probably more diverse examples, but

Here's the overworld thing. Its world is "transcendence". It takes itself much less seriously because its goal is not to place itself against the world, but outside of the world. It's the world of returning to things, finding wonder wherever it is: mainly in older fiction, myths and forests. You may see it as a retread of 80s metal culture and I wouldn't really agree because the emotional charge is different here. There's a much greater chance that they would sit through a whole sermon at a church and leave not unhappier than burn it. It's more like LARPism but reinvented from the ground up in a different situation. They also have much lighter forms: some turn from metal to folk or even synthpop varieties without any serious contradictions arising. It's largely about visions, fate and eerie things. You can clearly see where the women are.

Funnily enough, you can see transgressives arising from more traditional sources. Transcenders usually break through TikTok or other algorithm choices. The former already have comments go like "cvnty mother is mothering help", the latter have to rely on small loyal fanbases for a long time until they finally explode.

>>24465848
Did you know? If you don't like a thread, you can hide it, or simply shut the fuck up. But thanks for telling us, just in case.

I love goth literature and I like goth music, but I HATE goth girls because they were mean to me in high school

>>24467402
>>>24466216 (You)
>When you look at the creation myths of various cultures, that tracks. See Inanna in Babylonian culture. The curious thing is how more primitive cultures have a stronger matriarchal presence in both their religion and society, but this shifts further to patriarchal deities as they advance in terms of technology
>
And that seems to make sense as well. Humans worship reflected their needs, and what they were in awe of. cavemen and into early settlements? It was rational then to worship the sun. It warms you in the morning. It fails you for winter, but comes back each spring. In all temperate zones. sun worship makes sense. And once you settle, what do we see. The sun. Now the seasons (agriculture). And matriarchy is still important. These are the things you worship or celebrate.
>
Now you bring up the shift to patriarchal systems, and the rise in early technology. To make sense of it, I see first that women=kids, is less magical. Because you've seen domesticated farm animals for so long. Animal husbandry. Women making babies is still magical, but its predictable.
>
The same for the seasons. Its still magical to see the changes, but they are regular. As man builds civilization? We see people that can PREDICT seasons accurately. Astronomy.
>
Also, once humans begin to live in larger and large settlements... you start to get serious friction. Conflict. Its VERY male oriented, to have to have warriors. Also, labor intensive farming. Craftsmen. All male oriented things. Now, we see a shift to patriarchal systems. We also, begin to see gods of WAR, replacing worship of the seasons and fertility of women and the earth herself (mother earth).
>
Fast forward to the modern day. What don't modern humans understand now. Afterlife. Why we're here. We worship what we dont understand, and are in need of.Hence, we see religion's primary role today. Providing a comfort about those topics.
>
Prediction: say worldwide famine erupts, few people survive. With few people, and lots of land? You'll see lots of agriculture. I wouldn;t be surprised that under that system, fertility worship and seasons worship make some kind of comeback. Women breeding would be super important again, and you;d see a reverence for "mother earth" and "fertile young girls". Again, this prediction would be based on religion tending to your needs.

>>24436671 (OP)
>Do not let a flaunting woman coax and cozen and deceive you: she is after your barn. The man who trusts womankind trusts thieves. -- Hesiod

Retard here, besides clothes and monster drinks what are the gothics supposed to do ? Now it feels like they are just hoes getting attention and money from gooners but I guess it used to be more complex than that and they had personality like tastes in obscure/rare themes or something.

>>24469790
Idk, in the 90's they used to hang out with baggy pants spiked hair guys who smoked weed and guys that wore trench coats.

>>24469790
listen to "wave music" and "rave music" whatever that means
there's always been the cycle of styles being commodified but the brave new world has now eclipsed that and everyone just wears pajama sweats and t-shirts except for the influencers that wear single-use lingerie for photos

>>24469790
> what are the gothics supposed to do?
Only two things really
1. Listen to goth music, which is a requirement.
2. Dress in black, which is optional.
There are pretty much two phases to goth sub culture.
Trad goth which were former punks that liked music with darker lyrics and sounds, they appeared in the 1970s.
Modern goths who appeared in the 1990s. Modern goths incorporated themes from gothic literature, horror, and romanticism into the goth subculture. It became less punk rock and more emotional, dealing primarily with melancholy or depression. They also expanded the fashion by borrowing from both modern and past fashion trends.
I would also say that both trad and modern goths borrowed and dabbled in occultism, but that's a much lesser aspect of the sub-culture.
>Now it feels like they are just hoes getting attention and money from gooners
These girls most likely aren't real goths. They dress the part and call themselves goth but chances of them listening to goth bands, and going to goth shows is minimum. They are more likely to be metal heads than goths, but calling yourself metal doesn't have the same name recognition and imagery associated with it as goth does.

>>24469863
>Modern goths who appeared in the 1990s. Modern goths incorporated themes from gothic literature, horror, and romanticism into the goth subculture. It became less punk rock and more emotional, dealing primarily with melancholy or depression. They also expanded the fashion by borrowing from both modern and past fashion trends.
Yeah, I remember this period.
secondhand clothes shopping, horror movies, just anything off center was their thing. And yeah, the melancholy vibe.

>>24444105
Why do fags on here dismiss meaningful authors when they clearly haven't read them? Do you call Nietzsche a nihilist too like the other hacks?

>>24469790
Retarded lib goths will tell you "uhm sweaty, goth has always been political", so you probably have to protest for immigrants and trannies or something.

The current resurgence and interest in goth girls is literally just a meme. It started god knows where like all memes and then proliferated on instagram and tiktok as it became a means for chicks to attention whore and draw an audience to their onlyfans or twitch stream, or whatever internet thots get up to these days. Men bought into it full sail because most them don't have any standards and will take any opportunity to express their sexuality (see also all the "step on me mommy" stuff which is another contrived memetic sexual preference, which funnily enough has some overlap with the "goth gf" meme).
Most women who have capitalized on this trend aren't even goth. Many of them fit more so into the alt category having green hair and shitty thigh tattoos of wolfs howling at the moon and things like that.

Also >>24459102 is completely right. There is the perception that because goth chicks are "alternative" that somehow extends to their sexual and romantic preferences as well (which to a certain extent is true). Dweeby guys see a blond sorority girl and implicitly understand they stand no chance, but goth girls seem more attainable. "Preference" for goth girls is simply a sexual strategy for less attractive men, no need for Jungian analysis to understand why.

>>24470682
No you don't have to protest for immigrants and trannies, but yes the goth scene and sub-culture has always been leftist. It's always been race, and queer friendly, and these people have always contributed to the scene. I really don't understand the fascination people on the right have with invading alternative spaces. They keep trying to get into the punk and goth scenes and get stonewalled and physically dragged out every single time. I guess they just see white people gathering and assume they'll naturally be down to hate on minority groups and burn a cross on somebodies lawn. It's funny how these same right-wing chuds would be the main people loudly hating their alternative classmates until they run out of spaces to occupy or people to recruit into their retarded ideology. You all want the goth scene to be about white supremacy so badly but for 45 years they've been telling you all to fuck off and you still haven't gotten the message.

>>24470741
>I really don't understand the fascination people on the right have with invading alternative spaces.
What interesting subcultures or niches have the far right produced in the past 30 or 40 years? What have been their cultural contributions? They're creatively bankrupt, so they steal from everyone else.

>>24466078
>>24470723
All the anons who state that it is some sort of ideal for low value men are mostly right. Who's saying they want a goth dommy mommy to step on them? Skinnyfat gamers and anime watchers. Why goth girls specifically? The goth tag is very popular in various porn sites, and because of their otherness and social alienation, they see the archetypal goth girl as more approachable

>>24470809
I don't think it's just about approachability. There's a certain portion of men who posses a more submissive sexuality which is anathema to romantic and sexual conventions. The archetypical goth girl is symbolic of a transgressive counterculture which, if not explicitly, then implicitly allows for the existence of people with these aberrant but unharmful sexualities. Their existence says something like "we're throwing out the old standards" which is a breath of a fresh air to anybody that feels maligned or unrepresented by the mainstream today. They want a goth dommy mommy to step on them because their desire to be stepped on has them seek out the subculture in which that desire is likely to be accepted.

>All the anons who state that it is some sort of ideal for low value men are mostly right.
I mean sure, but it's right in only a very trivial and uninteresting sense.

>>24470741
Uhm no sweaty, you have to protest, goth has always been political!

>>24470741
Explain this and the early punk/goth scenes (as well as industrial, EBM, and neo-folk) obsession with swastikas and (neo)Nazi/Völkisch movements.

>>24470824
She's talked about it many times, she wore it for shock value, essentially to scare old people, not because she agrees with Nazism. Goths have never accepted right-wing ideology and they never will.

>>24470830
Right, right... Now explain the rest, and the industrial, EBM, and neo-folk scenes.

>>24470831
I don't know anything about industrial, EBM or Neo-folk. They aren't goth, there's some cross over because goths listen to these genres, but they don't have anything to do with the actual got sub-culture or scene. You need to go ask the rivetheads and neo-folks that question.

>>24470837
Well, you did say
>I really don't understand the fascination people on the right have with invading alternative spaces
and the industrial, EBM, and neo-folk scenes are clearly alternative spaces. So I was wondering what you had to say about that, since they're quite flirtatious with right-wing politics, imagery/aesthetics, often not just for "shock value". I'm curious how that fits into your view. Do they complicate the idea that alternative culture is uniformly leftist?

>>24470839
I didn't say alternative cultures were universally leftist. But you can't deny that they typically are, in particular punk and goth, and metal (sans black metal). Again I don't listen to those genres or really interact with any people that do, so I can't give an opinion on what they are doing over there.

>>24470741
>They keep trying to get into the punk
There were tons of punk bands that were explicitly nazis and/or white supremacists starting with the second punk wave in the late 70's/early 80's. Never mind the subsequent emergence of sub-genres and communities like Oi!, skinheads, Rock Against Communism, etc. To say that punk somehow "belongs" to the left is just nonsense.

>>24470846
And those bands that flirted with that imagery soon stopped once they realized people didn't find it ironic or satirical, but instead took them seriously. Punk is famously anti-right wing, to this day nazis are still getting their shit kicked in when they show up to punk shows.

>>24436671 (OP)
It's obviously porn propaganda. People underestimate how much porn influences every day life.

I cant believe this retarded thread has kept on the front page for two weeks.

>>24470849
I'm not talking about Sid Vicious wearing a shirt with a swastika on it. There were literal bands that were overtly anti-communist, racist, antisemitic, etc. Dead Kennedys released "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" in 1981, you don't make a song like that if there's no nazi punks around. Early punk scene in the UK was also closely tied to football hooligans and lower class workers. If you think people in 1970's England who work in steel factories and get into fistfights over sports were all anti racist, gay loving flower people accepting of everyone you're just plain retarded.
Clearly, you don't know much about the subject and you're ideological attached to the idea that somehow only leftists can "make art" or whatever, but lets keep the facts straight okay.

>>24470843
I'm just pointing out what seemed like a contradiction in your posts. Your original comment
>I really don't understand the fascination people on the right have with invading alternative spaces
kind of implies that you view "alternative spaces" as inherently not right-wing, and that any right-wing presence in them is artificial, external, and unwelcome, i.e. an invasion. One could reasonably interpret it that way, at least.
To be fair, you did follow up by specifically naming punk and goth. But the way you initially phrased it made it sound like you were talking about alt culture in general, which includes industrial, EBM, neo-folk, etc. = scenes that have long had internal right-wing elements, not just "invasions" from outside.
So I'm not accusing you of a total contradiction, but I do think the general phrasing invites scrutiny.

>>24470843
I'm just pointing out what seemed like a contradiction in your posts. Your original comment
>I really don't understand the fascination people on the right have with invading alternative spaces
kind of implies that you view "alternative spaces" as inherently not right-wing, and that any right-wing presence in them is artificial, external, and unwelcome, i.e. an invasion. One could reasonably interpret it that way, at least.
To be fair, you did follow up by specifically naming punk and goth. But the way you initially phrased it made it sound like you were talking about alt culture in general, which includes industrial, EBM, neo-folk, etc. Scenes that have long had internal right-wing elements, not just "invasions" from outside.
Also, this idea that punk and goth were always anti-right wing seems revisionist. Some of these groups didn't all stop when people "took them seriously", many of them doubled down and built dedicated scenes around far-right politics. >>24470871 makes a good point.

>>24470871
This is the most retarded shit that's been typed in this thread. Yes ofc you need to make a song called Nazi Punks Fuck Off, to make it explicitly clear that your scene is not accepting of that ideology. I don't know how you pulled of the mental gymnastics on that one to make it seem like Nazism is inherently Punk Rock. Ofc not everyone who listen to these genres agreed on racism, sexuality, or pacifism, especially in the very early days of the scenes forming, they eventually ironed out the wrinkles and very aggressively kicked those people out who do believe in being racist, or homophobic, or violent.

>>24470884
This is the most retarded shit that's been typed in this thread. Yes ofc you need to make a song called Nazi Punks Fuck Off, to make it explicitly clear that your scene is not accepting of that ideology. I don't know how you pulled of the mental gymnastics on that one to make it seem like Nazism is inherently Punk Rock. Ofc not everyone who listen to these genres agreed on racism, sexuality, or pacifism, especially in the very early days of the scenes forming, they eventually ironed out the wrinkles and very aggressively kicked those people out who do believe in being racist, or homophobic, or violent.

>>24470888
NTA but claiming 'they ironed out the wrinkles' is a laughable oversimplification of decades of ideological struggle, schisms and competing scenes lol. You didn't actually address his points and nobody is claiming Nazism is inherently Punk Rock.

>>24470891
And yet, in 2025, fascist loving right-wingers are still not allowed to exist in these spaces at all, no matter how hard they try to invade them. These are not cultures of white-supremacy end of story.

>>24470890
Oh this is directed at ME, lol. I'm baffled by this post, seems like pure deflection and emotional overreaction in place of an argument. Not sure how calmly pointing out a contradiction in your posts and referencing well-documented subcultures like white power skinhead or RAC bands counts as "the most retarded shit in the thread", but okay.
Nobody said Nazism is inherently punk or anything like that either. These elements weren't just "ironic flirtations" that got cleaned up once everyone got the memo. Entire scenes built around far-right ideology persisted, and pretending punk and goth were always ideologically pure is just revisionism.
>>24470898
This has absolutely nothing to do with the actual point.

>>24470908
>This has absolutely nothing to do with the actual point.
that was directed at an anon who responded to this >>24470890
maybe that was you and you're just trying to handwave it away because it's 100% the truth and you have no response.
>I'm baffled by this post, seems like pure deflection and emotional overreaction in place of an argument. Not sure how calmly pointing out a contradiction in your posts and referencing well-documented subcultures like white power skinhead or RAC bands counts as "the most retarded shit in the thread", but okay.
It's not emotional nor is it contradictory, it's factual. Bands used nazi imagery as shock value (literal idiot teenage bands), right-wingers took it as them agreeing with them, people who aren't pieces of shit said no thanks we don't want you all here. The nazi imagery disappeared, the bands grew up and matured, realized it was a mistake, and the right-ringers got kicked out, it's not a complicated story, but yeah okay. Again you all want these this sub-culture and music to be about white supremacy so badly and it's not. Why don't you just be normal? Listen to the music, enjoy the shows and the cool people you can meet, and go home without trying to drum up a movement to put people into concentration camps.

>>24470925
>Bands used nazi imagery as shock value
No, bands literally expressed racist, anti-communist, and antisemitic sentiments in their lyrics and interviews and these bands were a considerable part of the punk scene. I really don't understand how somebody can be this retarded.

>>24470925
>Why don't you just be normal?

>>24470945
The only retard here is you, what's so hard about understand the concept of shock value? Young artists still say shocking things in their music these days, things they don't agree with but they say to elicit a reaction, things they think people will recognize as ironic or humorous or facetious, but the message gets poorly delivered. Eventually they acknowledge that it was wrong or poorly executed and move on. The remaining morons you are talking about who were serious about being fascists were kicked out of the scene.

>>24439514
It’s just the corsets and tight pants for me.

>>24470967
Do you know what "rock against communism" is, or are you trolling? There's plenty of fash alt people in the neofolk and metal scenes as well. Just because you don't like something and don't want it to exist, doesn't mean it's "ironic".

>>24462942
I concur

>>24472841

>>24470843
Black metal is inherently

Memes aside, you actually can't untangle the anti-Christianity/occult/Peganism from the white nationalism. I'm sure there's bands that aren't racist, but anti-racist black metal is an oxymoron. It'd be like being an anti-Marxist communist.

>>24460625
That’s like a compliment if anything

>>24473125
> anti-Marxist communist.
That’s something that is completely possible and does exist

>>24436963
Goth started as a working class punk movement, maybe they were all mall goths?

>>24470925
You keep insisting your replies aren't emotional or contradictory, but they clearly are. You reduce everything to a simplistic morality play
>teenage bands did edgy things
>they grew up
>bad people got kicked out
>the scene matured
As if that's the whole story. But the reality is more complicated. Not all bands used Nazi imagery just for shock value, some leaned into it ideologically. Not all of them "matured" or "realized it was a mistake". Entire far-right scenes persisted, and still exist. The imagery disappeared from the mainstream mostly because it became unprofitable, not because everyone suddenly found ethics. Every subculture eventually gets absorbed, diluted, and whitewashed when it hits the corporate threshold. This is no different.
>Again you all want these this sub-culture and music to be about white supremacy so badly and it's not. Why don't you just be normal?
Who is "you all"? I'm not "right-wing", I'm not trying to make anything "about white supremacy". I'm pointing out contradictions in your history and historical blind spots in your narrative. You're the one flipping out over what should be a pretty tame correction. If anything, you seem weirdly emotionally attached to sanitizing this subculture, like your identity depends on it being ideologically pure.

>>24436960
The emasculation isn't something to just write off. I believe it's central to the modern goth dommy mommy mythos

>>24470809
so real. the only men i've met who were obsessed with goths were ugly fatties. Most of the goth girls I know have boyfriends who are also ugly fatties

>>24470925
lil bro is getting emotional huh

>>24436671 (OP)
Northern European culture has Gothic aesthetics. Southern European culture has Classical aesthetics.

read Spengler you tard.

>>24469863
Singer of Fields of the Nephilim is a straight up thelemite, and Peter Murphy (the father of Goth) is a Sufi Muslim

>>24470831
I think it could be explained with:
> Any community that gets its laughs by pretending to be idiots will eventually be flooded by actual idiots who mistakenly believe that they're in good company.

They were all edgelords and trolls, until unironic people came in. Boyd Rice is just 4chan incarnate. Douglas P and Tony Wakeford are for sure very dubious, but honestly no I don’t think Douglas P is an actually Nazi at this point. Is he racist to some extent? Yes. Is he a teenager that never grew up? Yes. But, no I don’t think he’s a Nazi and I think Tony Wakeford did eventually leave his old views behind.

One of the OG members of Di6 quitting because they felt guilty over the reactions that people had over the Nazi imagery makes it kind of clear that this isnt some crazy ultra-coordinated Neo-Nazi attempt to hide behind irony, because surely he would have been in on it?

>>24476040
Imo, by racist to some extent I mean having personal prejudices and biases than any actual ideology

>>24439514
Necrophilia is not necessarily about a attraction to apperance, it

>>24477067
...Fuck pressed wrong button. Anyway.
It is more about the concept of death, at least for me and it seems like other as well. A freshly dead or dark skinned corpse would still be attractive. There may be some attraction to wounds and such, but those are much more extreme in comparison to pale skin. Of course, I have some appreciation for goth as they also romanticize death, but that is more about having a common interest.

What's the explanation for "punk" people always being the most uptight, fart sniffing, navel gazing, obnoxious faggots going on about how they "studied punk academically" and shit like that, as if that wasn't incredibly embarrassing? Is it just so they can say "you're the real poseur, I'm credentialed"?

>>24477393
Good question. This retarded faggot encapsulates it perfectly
>>24436952
>>24437037
>>24470741
>>24470890
>>24470925
>>24470967

>>24474035
Safe horny is glowing with ZOG its unreal