Thread 24464915

What is the Biblical Canon of the Church of the East?
Wikipedia says it has the base Catholic canon, 3 and 4 Maccabees like the Eastern Orthodox have, but no 1 and 2 Esdras, the Prayer of Mannaseh, nor Psalm 151. In addition, Wikipedia says it has Josephus’ Jewish War VI, Joseph and Asanath, and the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch. These last three I find hard to believe considering Wikipedia’s lackluster coverage of Eastern Christianity, but I don’t deny the possibility. Alternatively, the independent bishop, in schism with the Ancient Church of the East which is in turn in schism with the Assyrian Church of the East, Mar Mari Emmanuel, just tells his congregation to use Catholic Bibles.
I suppose I would need to know Arabic to research this most effectively, and I know Eastern Churches don’t make a big point of Biblical canon anyway, so translating websites online might or or might not work.
If you know anything regarding this, please do tell.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Canons_of_various_Jewish_and_Christian_traditions

Anyone?

>>24464915 (OP)
I don't know much about Bible comparisons but here are The Orthodox Study Bible stuff:

>>24464915 (OP)
>>24465988
Not sure if this helps. Let me know if you want more pages.

>>24465983
>>24465988
>>24465999
I appreciate the effort, but that’s not exactly what I’m looking for.
The NRSV with Apocryphal/ Deuterocanonical books outlines the Eastern Orthodox canon well, but when you translated the table of contents of Russian Bibles online, 2 Esdras is in the appendix. So, that may be an error. I’ll have to check other Slavonic Bibles.
I should buy a copy of the Bible you have anyway, even though I’m Catholic.

>>24467398
Cheap at Walmart, after tax and shipping it was under $30, bar code on back says $50. Must not get a lot of sales.

>>24467420
Yes, but I’m Australian: there’re no Walmarts here, but there’re Bible stores, and they have it. There are two varieties: a hardcover in a dust protector that is more common and is probably the one you have because it’s less expensive, and the faux leather version that comes in a cardboard gift box but it stinks like the worst new car smell.
Anyway, are you Eastern Orthodox yourself?

>>24467480
No. I would like to be Christian and Orthodox made the most sense to me. Just reading though, grew up Christian but Protestant or non-denomination, you know, that limp dick religion of convenience shit.
Down under? So $30 is what, 100 dollaridoos? And that makes sense with Mari mention, he recently got into some shit right? Eye stab, Assyrian church dropping him because... he was too popular?
What's it like being a Catholic Aussie? Didn't know the Church went that far.

>>24467480
>>24467539
A lot of Slavic Bibles have slight differences due to the autocephalous Church structure. Not super familiar with the differences myself. I mostly use the Douay Rheims and the Orthodox Study Bible.

>>24467539
I was baptised Catholic, became a hardline atheist for 10 years, then came back when I was 19. I considered non-denominationalism, but I figured out it was the lowest common denominator; I wanted the fullness of the truth and Catholicism was the most theologically sound Church.
It’s affordable. Just got to get around to it. I’m also reading the Douay-Rheims Bible which is sort of the Catholic equivalent of the KJV, so I have to finish that.
He separated from the Ancient Church of the East, which split from the Assyrian Church of the East because they claimed the Assyrian Church of the East had a hereditary patriarchate and they didn’t like the new Gregorian Calendar; they preferred the Julian.
The reason why Mar Mari got kicked out (Mar actually means Holy or Saint; it’s a tradition they have) is supposedly because he disagreed with some part of the Nicene Creed, which is a big no-no.
The Catholic Church came to Australia with the Irish. It was initially suppressed; the first priest being someone who tried to infiltrate a penal colony. I myself am not Anglo-Celtic, but my grandparents came to Australia during the White Australia Policy.
Australia used to be majority Protestant, specifically majority Church of England, which became the independent Anglican Church of Australia in 1962, but for whatever reason, so many left that Church that now the Catholic Church is the biggest Church in Australia (I think it’s because of the obligation to go to church every week). However, ‘No Religion’ on the last census outnumbers Catholics; only the denominations combined makes up a very slight Christian majority.
There have been tragedies. For instance, in the capital city, Canberra, they compulsory acquired a Catholic hospital because it refused to do abortions and Scripture teaching is only allowed in public schools in one state: NSW. There is, however, hope for the future, as Catholic priests over the years have become remarkably more traditional and the youth are increasingly drawn to traditionalism.

>>24467551
Yeah. Looking online, Serbian Orthodox Bibles have 4 Maccabees despite being Slavonic. Romanian Orthodox Bibles even have 1 and 3 Esdras but no 2 Esdras. I have to check again, but if 2 Esdras is the same Ezra, that means they chose a Deuterocanonical book over a Protocanonical one.

>>24464915 (OP)
>what are the Biblical canons of the Church of the East

Similar to what the other anon says, it varies due to the autocephalous nature of the churches within the CotE structure. The same goes for the EO church, though the differences are minor. The OSB is a fantastic resource and includes most, if not all, of the apocrypha - highly recommended. I prefer the softcover version personally but i prefer softcover in general - both are good quality. What is and is not considered to be "canonical" stems from particular traditions and what was passed down as authoritative over time, so there are variations but the main body of work remains the same. Generally speaking the apocrypha is still read and studied by church members as valuable texts at home outside of liturgical services, just not within an official capacity, the word "apocrypha" being better translated as "private text" rather than "hidden".

>t. EO

>>24469040
Be the first to make it.

>>24464915 (OP)
why the photo of Alan Moore?

>>24468300
I can’t find anything data on the Church of the East being autocephalous in nature on Wikipedia; could you help me out there?
I think the proper, hermeneutical term for these books is Deuterocanon if you’re Catholic or Orthodox, or maybe even Anagignoskomena if you’re Eastern Orthodox and you want to get technical. ‘Apocrypha’ - specifically in reference to these books - is appropriate from a Protestant perspective, but I suppose in the English-speaking world, that is by far the most common word of the three, so I can understand why non-Protestants may use it. I suppose a middle ground would be calling them “the books commonly called the Apocrypha”. For books that are not canonical, not these books which we are talking about, Apocrypha is the pre-Protestant, ancient, and traditional word going back to the Church Fathers for books whose canonicity was in doubt. You have on one extreme the Gnostic heretical Gospel of Thomas, which says Jesus Christ killed someone when he a child, and then the Book of Enoch, which is non-canonical in most Churches I don’t think because it has heresy (I haven’t read it and I can’t find anything online linking it to heresy), but because Church authorities consider it pseudepigrapha or that they believe that the writer isn’t actually Enoch but is incorrectly ascribed, yet the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Oriental Churches deem it canonical, and I respect their apostolicity, as do I the Eastern Orthodox Churches and their canon. I would rank the Deuterocanon of Churches other than my own as worthy of reverence and a priest of mine agrees with me, and I suppose that is close to what Martin Luther said about the Apocrypha being “useful and good to read”.
At the end of the day, what is Deuterocanonical and Apocryphal depends on the Church in question. 3 Maccabees - to my knowledge - has never been in a Catholic Bible, so it can be considered Apocrypha (but not heretical like Gospel of Thomas), the likely reason being is because it is vastly different from 1 and 2 Maccabees; it’s not about the Maccabees, yet I still respect that an Apostolic Church has made it canon. 4 Maccabees and 2 Esdras are in the Greek and Slavonic Orthodox Bibles’ appendixes, but I don’t know if an Orthodox would call them Apocryphal - you’d or I’d have to ask an Eastern Orthodox priest. Likewise, 1 and 2 Esdras, and the Prayer of Mannaseh use to be in the appendix of the Latin Vulgate and the Douay-Rheims. Are they Apocryphal? You’d or I’d have to ask a Traditional Latin Mass priest as some of them are in the liturgy.

I appreciate that the East refused "2 Peter". All churches should flush that turd.

>>24470184
What’s so bad about 2 Peter?

>>24470192
>>24470434
>>24470498
What causes you to post these images? I’m not saying they’re bad, but I’m just wondering why.

>>24470413
2 Peter is a blatant pseudepigraph disputed all through the early Church. Also depends on the Apocalypse of Peter which failed to meet the canon standards (because it is also a forgery).

>>24470911
God

>>24471822
I just read it and didn’t notice anything. Please elaborate.

>>24469040
There is so little data on international Bibles and it really irks me.
There should be a definitive list of what translation is used for the Holy Mass in every country. Also, there should be a list of which languages only have Protestant Bible translations, as well as a list of which languages have Orthodox translations, out of interest.
In fact, I wonder which has one for every tradition. Probably Arabic, because they have Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Protestant, and Church of the East.

>>24473043
I don't think the Oriental Orthodox have an arabic Bible
The Ethiopian and Eritrean Churches use ge'ez, Syriacs use syriac, Armenians use armenian, Copts use copt, and the Malabar Church in India uses syriac iirc

>>24473404
OP, here. I’ve seen a Coptic Orthodox app and there’s a Bible section that has the Catholic canon almost exactly except the addition of the Prayer of Mannaseh.
A Coptic Orthodox acolyte also told me that their pope considers the NKJV the best translation in English and so they use it in their liturgy except for the Deuterocanon; I don’t know what they use for that; probably the NRSV.
I have been to one Coptic Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
I think they would have a Bible in Arabic if they have English liturgies.
The app:
https://apps.apple.com/au/app/coptic-reader/id649434138

>>24467697
>It’s affordable. Just got to get around to it. I’m also reading the Douay-Rheims Bible which is sort of the Catholic equivalent of the KJV, so I have to finish that.
It's a corrupt Mary-worship Bible. It's not comparable to God's preserved Word which was faithfully translated.
>"she" in Genesis 3:15

>>24470413
>>24472451
It rebukes the Alexandrian priest cults like Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.

>>24470911
God

>>24473507
I'm EO from an OO family and from my experience, generally speaking, OO people especially those in diaspora have a praxis that is closer to RC than it is to EO, from things like signing themselves like Catholics do, to using Catholic Bibles and even in some cases paying attention to what the Pope says. It might be because OO in Europe sometimes "borrow" Catholic churches for their services (syriacs do that often) so there ends up being a kind of syncretism

for the Syriac Christian experience, would it be best to read a translation of the Peshitta or of the Harklean version?

>>24473535
Give me more examples.
>>24473547
Can you elaborate? Do you hear God audibly? That would be a mighty gift indeed.
>>24473639
Interesting. What made you change?

>>24473535
Baptist? I'd have a hard time believing an Apostolic Christian would be a KJV only guy.

>>24474959
Not him, but rather OP.
I’m Catholic and I used to be a Catholic KJV-onlyist because the King James Version has been so influential on the English language and English-speaking culture.

>>24467539
I oppose Orthodoxy on grounds that it denies the filioque and is not united like Catholicism under one banner. too much sectarianism and it seems to act as a vehicle for politics these days. plus my background is Irish and English and it wouldn't make sense.

>>24475072
Douay-Rheims or KJV in my case, either will do.

>>24474927
>Can you elaborate? Do you hear God audibly? That would be a mighty gift indeed.
Yes

>>24475072
What gets me is he's talking about "Mary Worship". I wonder how the OO/Arians feel about Mary Veneration. I actually don't know. Anyway, I'd be equally curious to hear is response to your question. I have nothing against the KJV myself, a lot of passages in the OSB are actually lifted from it, with the Septuagint spliced in.
>>24475119
In any case, your Christ spamming makes a lot of anons seethe. I certainly hope you're not going down a prelest rabbit hole anon. You spoken with a Priest on this?

>>24475170
>In any case, your Christ spamming makes a lot of anons seethe. I certainly hope you're not going down a prelest rabbit hole anon. You spoken with a Priest on this?
I'm here to fight atheists and make them convert subconsciously, that's what God taught me to do

>>24475177
Hey brother. I'm not judging. Keep doing what you're doing.

>>24475222
God bless

>>24472451
Because you are lazy and won't do the legwork yourself, I'll lead your jackass nose to the water:
https://www.academia.edu/92472960/2_Peter_and_the_Apocalypse_of_Peter_Towards_a_New_Perspective
A brief search on "2 peter" and "pseudepigraph" through any search engine will turn up more, if you weren't lazy and playing cute.

>>24475170
The OO have a Marian apparition that had millions of witnesses. Our Lady of Zeiton. They hold her in the highest honor as the Theotokos just as RC and EO do.

>>24475246
> playing cute.
I don’t get it.

>>24474927
>Interesting. What made you change?
The theological differences pushed me more towards EO. Also I wanted to avoid phyletism, and there were practical concerns (my church has its services and homilies in my language, whereas I don't understand copt or armenian or whatever)

>>24475255
I wonder who holds Mary in higher esteem: Protestants or Nestorians.

>>24474959
Well, my hyper-specific regional chapter of a niche non-denominational protestant denomination is the True Apostolic Church so...

Thoughts on Mar Mari Emmanuel? I know he's a schismatic but I like his takes

>>24477084
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dT3Iw5R5dfA&pp=ygUYTWFyIG1hcmkgZW1tYW51ZWwgbHV0aGVy
2:48 funny moment.

>>24475597
Really? OO liturgies not in English? The Coptic Orthodox Churches in Sydney all have English Divine Liturgies. Anyway, which EO Church? I’m guessing Antiochian, right?

>>24478830
Yeah it depends on the country. Copts usually speak the local language in big cities.
>Antiochian
Russian. I didn't really care about the ethnicity, just that I felt at home in the parish

bros I want a wife but it seems like God wants me to remain alone

>>24479897
You just have to discern and pray more. Romantic loneliness can be painful and nearly all men struggle with it, even those called to celibacy. Bad things happen to good people; this isn’t Prosperity Gospel, but know that you can be one with Christ in your sufferings. By the process of Mortification, you can offer up your suffering to God.
In Catholicism, there is what’s called God’s ‘Perfect Will’ which includes everything that happens. However, God wants us not to sin, but we sin. So, there must be an Imperfect Will - not that God is in any way imperfect, but that we are allowed to share in His will and because we ourselves are imperfect, we make that will imperfect for we haven’t perfected it in the cooperation with God’s grace.
It may be the will of God that you get married, but God wants you to do some of the work; you would need to take the initiative and what opportunities are presented to you. That cute girl on the bus, at the check out, or in MacDonalds, she might be a chaste Christian who you will only see once in your life if you don’t make the move.
>>24478886
The Russian Orthodox cathedral in my city only does English liturgies every quarter or something and they’re very early in the morning
ROCOR or just Russian Orthodox?

>>24480346
God bless

>>24480346
My parish is from the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox Churches in Western Europe, until 2019 they were under the EP and now they're under Moscow but from what I understand they enjoy a large degree of autonomy from the MP. Maybe that's why a lot of churches from the archdiocese have liturgies in the local language whereas churches that are directly under Moscow tend to just go with slavonic?

>>24481179
Do they have liturgies in Russian too?

>>24481207
Church Slavonic*

>>24481223
What’s so special about this image?

>>24481229
Awareness

>>24481232
Awareness of what?

>>24481236
you doesn't exist yet, but you are try to exist

>>24481207
>>24481209
All liturgies are done mostly in my language with some parts in russian to accommodate the ethnically russian parishioners

>>24480346
>she might be a chaste Christian who you will only see once in your life if you don’t make the move.
It's over then, I barely have the courage to talk to strangers in general

>>24482495
Are there any Christians mens’ or young adults’ groups in your area?

>>24483340
I don't think so, there's only classes for kids but that's it

>>24484041
Then start one.

>>24484344
>>24485343
>>24485359
I like this one.

>>24486216
Great one

OP here. Since there has hitherto been no answer to the Opening Post, I will ask elsewhere and post the results here.

I am awaiting answer from my question by email.

>>24481229
He's a freemason, it represents the god of freemasonry. Also, the masonic square and compass is a stylized star of remphan (fallaciously called the "star of david").

>>24486858
I just don't care about the intricacies of the Eastern Catholic cult's nonsense since they have a false salvation doctrine.
>but they're not Catholic, they're Ortho-
It's the same thing, it's a stupid priest cult that denies the plain word of God to hold to their traditions, and they teach a false works-based gospel. There's Roman Catholics, Lutheran Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Anglican Catholics, etc. -- they're all too busy trying to be catholic to care what the Bible actually says. Who cares what books they decide to include or exclude when they're not even right on salvation doctrine or when idolatry is so important to them?

How was divine liturgy today, friends?

>>24487300
Probably tmi but don't care. I've been researching EO and (praying inconsistenly) since before covid, I started going to church only this year, and can go once every few months, last time I went I missed the service but managed to confess and talk to an amazing priest, wise, gentle, radiating with mercy. He gave me spiritual advice and prayed for me. His counsel stayed with me and I think about his words often.

A couple months before that, I went to Divine Liturgy and partook in Holy Communion for the first time (it should have been the other way around, just circumstances), I felt lighter, like a new man, like my heart was renewed; both after Communion and Confession respectively. I have to hold fast to my prayer rule and icons every day, otherwise I sink. One of the things I'll inquire next time will be about monasticism, something I've been thinking about for many years.

https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/prayers/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.orthodoxprayersandservices

>>24488012
You're lucky. So far I've felt this from communion only once

>>24488053
I didn't mean it like that, to brag. I just don't have anyone to talk to about all this. Glory to God.

>>24488131
I know you didn't, I wasn't implying that. God bless

>>24487268
Why is it always the left eye?

>>24487268
I'm not a freemason, I'm above them

>>24487268
You’re stuck in the past. Catholics and Protestants share the same fundamental beliefs on salvation. ‘Works-based salvation’ is just a strawman and always has been.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

Still waiting on the email…

Waiting…

…

That secretary must be really busy.

I’ll just make a new thread once I get the data.

Who did you e-mail?

>>24495436
A church.

>>24495439
That’s Slavonic, not Greek. I know the IC XC and the Ο ΩΝ, but the rest, I do not know.

>>24497233
Then again, I could be wrong.

>>24497233
It seems to me like it's greek letters combined together
There's "O" which is straightforward followed by what looks like capital pi, A combined with N, tau combined with omicron (?) etc
Together you can make out that it says "O PANTOKRATOR"
Kinda weird though because there's O but also lowercase omega (under the last capital tau)
Maybe I'm completely wrong but it does seem like a weird way to write greek

>>24497236
Both Yandex and Google reverse image searches have no results. It might be an AI-generated image.

>>24499270
No, I have that exact icon in my room

>>24499900
Strange. I wonder why it was deleted.