Thread 24497402

>This type of friendship is perfect in terms both of duration and everything else, and in all cases such friends receive from each other the same thing or something quite similar, which is indeed what ought to be shared between friends. The type of friendship formed for pleasure bears similarity to this perfect type. For indeed, good men are pleasing to one another. Likewise, too, the type of friendship forged for advantage. For good men are also advantageous to one another. And it is true also in the case of men motivated by pleasure or advantage that friendships are most likely to endure when each gets the same thing from the other, such as pleasure, and also when it flows from the same source, such as happens between witty people but not between lover and beloved. For lover and beloved do not take pleasure in the same things: rather, the lover takes pleasure in gazing at his beloved, while the latter takes pleasure in the attentions of his lover. But when the beloved’s youthful beauty fades sometimes the friendship too fades. For now the lover does not find the boy pleasing to look at, and the boy receives no attention. But many couples continue the relationship, if, as a result of spending time together, they come to love each other’s character, because they are of similar character.

>But if their erotic relationship is characterized by an exchange of advantage rather than pleasure, the two are less friendly toward each other and the friendship lasts less long. Those who are friends for advantage cease to be friends when it ceases to be advantageous. For they are not friends of each other but friends of profit.

What did Aristotle mean by this, bros? I thought he was against this sort of shit.

>>24497402 (OP)
That's taken out of context. This has been debunked.

>>24497402 (OP)
Old guy is too old. Also the boy in the back on the right is lovely.

>>24497584
lovely as in what sense

>>24497402 (OP)
1. There is no value judgement for better or worse in the quoted section.
2. Keep in mind also that the definition of "an erotic relationship" can be extremely nuanced, although in this case I think Aristotle was probably commenting on straightforward and real erotic relationships.
>>24497584
Not only are you an attention seeking turbofaggot but you also favour atrocious haircuts. Yikes, sweety.

>>24497402 (OP)
Why are they so white?

>>24497463
Whoever made this image is either a prolific liar or endearingly retarded. Most of this stuff relies on appeal to unthinking knee-jerk reaction that doesn't consider at all the cultural peculiarities of different peoples and eras. The Sacred Band of Thebes for example was absolutely 100% certainly not gay, you would have to be a fantasist and completely uneducated in order to believe that it was. Every single pro-gay claim made in this image that I am familiar with is a faking or distortion of fact - if that is the best the proponents of faggotry can muster, their case must be miserable indeed.

>>24497644
The gay pride piss orgies are just culture too.

>>24497463
This is such a pathetic denial that it comes off funny

You have to keep in mind the degree to which English translations of Aristotle and other Greeks are highly subject to the opinions of the translator.

>>24497644
>The Sacred Band of Thebes for example was absolutely 100% certainly not gay, you would have to be a fantasist and completely uneducated in order to believe that it was.
Practically every Greek writer not from Thebes comments on what detestable faggots the Boeotians were.

>>24497592
what do you think?

>>24497463
Based anon fighting the good fight against the lies.

>>24497628
He believes that a pederastic relationship formed for mutual pleasure (in the case of the boy, the pleasure of affection and attention, in the case of the man, sexual pleasure) is preferable to a pederastic relationship where the boy is motivated by profit, which is not an explicit endorsement of the practice, but he must have had some level of acceptance towards the practice of pederasty, otherwise it would have been exceedingly strange for him to use the example of a sexual relationship between a man and a boy to highlight a positive quality of friendship.

He uses a similar situation for an example in Prior Analytics:
>Now suppose every lover, when he experiences erotic desire, should prefer that his beloved be disposed to grant him favors (proposition A) but not in fact grant them (proposition C), rather than that the beloved actually grant favors (proposition D) but not be disposed to do so (proposition B). In this case, it is clear that it is more desirable that the beloved be disposed to grant favors (A) than that he actually grant them (D). Therefore, when one experiences erotic desire, reciprocated affection from the beloved is more desirable than sexual intercourse. And therefore erotic desire is more a desire for reciprocated affection than for sex. And if it is mostly a desire for reciprocated affection, then this is its goal. Therefore sex is either not a goal at all or it is subsumed within the larger goal of reciprocated affection. And indeed it is the same with the other appetites and arts.

The way it is talked about nonchalantly suggests that it was a commonplace arrangement during his time.

>>24497644
>Every single pro-gay claim made in this image that I am familiar with is a faking or distortion of fact
Example?

>>24497644
>The Sacred Band of Thebes for example was absolutely 100% certainly not gay you would have to be a fantasist and completely uneducated in order to believe that it was
The following is from Plutarch's Life of Pelopidas:

>The sacred band, we are told, was first formed by Gorgidas, of three hundred chosen men, to whom the city furnished exercise and maintenance, and who encamped in the Kadmeia; for which reason, too, they were called the city band; for citadels in those days were properly called cities. But some say that this band was composed of lovers and beloved.

>And a pleasantry of Pammenes is cited, in which he said that Homer's Nestor was no tactician when he urged the Greeks to form in companies by clans and tribes, "That clan might give assistance unto clan, and tribes unto tribes," since he should have stationed lover by beloved. For tribesmen and clansmen make little account of tribesmen and clansmen in times of danger; whereas, a band that is held together by the friendship between lovers is indissoluble and not to be broken, since the lovers are ashamed to play the coward before their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, and both stand firm in danger to protect each other

>Nor is this a wonder, since men have more regard for their lovers even when absent than for others who are present, as was true of him who, when his enemy was about to slay him where he lay, earnestly besought him to run his sword through his breast, "in order," as he said, "that my beloved may not have to blush at sight of my body with a wound in the back."

>It is related, too that Iolaos, who shared the labours of Herakles and fought by his side, was beloved of him. And Aristotle says that even down to his day the tomb of Iolaos was a place where lovers and beloved plighted mutual faith. It was natural, then, that the band should also be called sacred, because even Plato calls the lover a friend "inspired of God."

>It is said, moreover, that the band was never beaten, until the battle of Chaironeia; and when, after the battle, Philip was surveying the dead, and stopped at the place where the three hundred were lying, all where they had faced the long spears of his phalanx, with their armour, and mingled one with another, he was amazed, and on learning that this was the band of lovers and beloved, burst into tears and said: "Perish miserably they who think that these men did or suffered aught disgraceful."

>Speaking generally, however, it was not the passion of Laios that, as the poets say, first made this form of love customary among the Thebans; but their law-givers, wishing to relax and mollify their strong and impetuous natures in earliest boyhood, gave the flute great prominence both in their work and in their play, bringing this instrument into pre-eminence and honour, and reared them to give love a conspicuous place in the life of the palaistra, thus tempering the dispositions of the young men.

Was Plutarch an uneducated fantasist?

>>24497402 (OP)
What is picrel from?

>>24499090
Kys.

Did Alexander have relations with Aristotle?

>>24499090
Alexander (2004), but he's only a young Alexander for the first section of the film.

>>24499140
Aristotle was his teacher for a few years in his youth, but it wasn't a sexual relationship if that's what you're asking.

>>24499057
I believe his argument is that it's a mistranslation, and erastes and eromenos mean "totally platonic, 100% non-gay older friend" and "totally platonic, 100% non-gay younger friend."

>>24499159
>>24499057
>>24497644
>>24497463
nta but for what its worth even modern militaries still use this system of assigning a new recruit to an older soldier to show him the ropes and face punishment if the new guy fucks up or unknowingly does something dangerous.

>see clearly new guy lost and alone on a ship
>hey you ok?
>h-hey yeah just lost, its only my second day here
>whos your mentor?!?

its just called a mentor system. been used for a long time by all types of people and societies

>>24499168
Yes, but do they call the two parties the "giver of sexual love" and "receiver of sexual love"?

>>24499176
as the other anon mentioned, its an argument about translations is the claim. also tee bee aych dont you think those phrases are just a little too on the nose? its almost comical sounding

>>24499199
I'm the same anon, I was being facetious with the first post. How exactly do you translate "eros" without some reference to sexuality?

>>24499203
Why, their love of teaching of course.

>>24499203
oh i didnt really mean to lean on your post and didnt even read it entirely, i just know thats the common argument. its not like it would be the first mistranslation or misunderstanding that happened in historical studies.

also as you see im not trying to present myself as an expert, i cant read greek and have not seen the original texts so there isnt much for me to say about it.

that being said its also worth mentioned that basically everyone in history called their enemies or new peoples they met faggots like the celtic -> roman and roman -> celtic quotes. athens called thebes a bunch of faggots but didnt they also call sparta a bunch of faggots and didnt sparta also call athens a bunch of faggots?

being called a faggot seems to have had a negative connotation throughout human history so why would you just to the conclusion that its a record of 100% pure literal fact and not a simple insult?

how often do you get called a faggot, tranny, or nigger daily on this site?

>>24499215
That would be philia, not eros.

>>24499216
Yes, and there's actually a Greek word that I can't recall at the moment that pretty much directly translates as "boyfucker" that they love to throw around at each other. Erastes and eromenos are words that they readily use to refer to themselves, though.

>>24499216
>celtic -> roman
There are no written documents of Celtic people claiming that the Romans practiced homosexuality. Aristotle actually mentions that the Celts practiced pederasty, immediately after describing them as "brave and warlike", so he isn't saying it as an insult:
>So that in such a state riches will necessarily be in general esteem, particularly if the men are governed by their wives, which has been the case with many a brave and warlike people except the Celts, and those other nations, if there are any such, who openly practise pederasty. And the first mythologists seem not improperly to have joined Ares and Aphrodite together; for all nations of this character are greatly addicted either to the love of women or of boys,

There are several other sources which claim that the Celts practiced pederasty.

In Latin, the extant words we have which refer to homosexuality make it clear that there is no association between male attraction to boys, and effeminacy, but allowing other men to penetrate you was viewed as such. In Greek, there are fewer words, but the same is still true. The Greek written record also makes it clear that they did not view pederasty as being in conflict with proper masculine behaviour, i.e. they did not consider pederasts to be faggots, nor did they believe that the boys involved in pederastic relationships were compromising their masculinity. People often conflate adult-homosexuality with pederasty, to try to portray the latter as though it was looked down upon in antiquity in the same way the former was.

>dude its just history! this is done by experts who are serious about their profession and dont let politics or bias warp their views!
>BCE

Just to help explain what's going on here, take a look at this post. It perfectly sums up the cultural difference. "Yeah, we do the absolute gayest shit imaginable on a regular basis, but at least we're not faggots like you." When you read ancient Greek arguments for or against faggotry, keep in mind that their definition of "not faggotry" includes stuff that would make all but the most pride-flag waving Americans screech and throw a fit.

>>24499263
Also, so you're clear on the extent of the faggotry displayed in that screencap, "put a dick on the lips" is a Russian euphemism for full-on oral rape to completion.

>>24499261
These writings still exist, anon. You could translate them yourself if you really think everyone else is doing it wrong.

>>24497584
You should swiftly execute yourself.

>>24497584
The blonde one on the left is loveliest

>>24499203
eros strictly speaking is just desire, there's one line in Homer I know at heart because it's common enough(αὐτὰρ ἐπεὶ πόσιος καὶ ἐδητύος ἐξ ἔρον ἕντο) where the eros here is of drink and food
the sexual element is usually inferred when the object is another person and not a thing

>>24500568
Would it be less gay if militaries arranged recruits and veterans into "those who desire" and "those who are desired?"

Was gayness the "secret sauce" of Western Civilization? What allowed it to triumph over the rest of the world?

>>24499168
Yup, thing is though, faggots from Crete started introducing pedophilic shit on this system and since a lot of them were high-ranking members of society, no one could stop them

>>24501387
Couldn't be, everywhere else was also gay. Relegating homosexuality to the alphabet soup squad is a uniquely modern anglo phenomenon.

Gays are diseased degenerates and are 29 times more likely to be paedophiles.

>>24501904
I don't see how that's possible when 20% of men are pedophiles but only 3% of men are gay.

>>24501387
Yes.

>>24502964
>arianboylover1488
Sometimes life is so beautiful

>>24502964
>>24503015
100% guaranteed that nigga is a jeet or some other kind of brownoid

>>24501387
>Was gayness the "secret sauce" of Western Civilization?
Clearly not since hedonistic homosexuality is more widespread than ever in the modern Western world, and our society is declining at a rapid pace.

faggots are so desperate to pretend that their aberration contributes more culturally than caricatures of flamers and monkey pox memes. Get back in the closet and take your disease and maladjustment with you. disgusting faggots.

>>24504370
But I'm White.

>>24504647
There have been many societies that have believed that homosexuality was beneficial including the Greeks and the Japanese. The reason why homosexuality fell out of favour in the West is because of the spread of the religion of the jews.

>>24497644
>>24497665
You retards know that the image is itself satire, right

>>24504705
whatever you say, faggot

>>24505379
He's right though.

>>24505559
sure he is, faggot