In my adolescence I thought this book was a prescient look at liberalism's upcoming demise. As an adult I realize it's a defense of liberalism by method of critiquing it. People like Deneen are paranoid of their society's decline and only try to preserve its dominance by questioning its foundation, but never replacing them. When faced with genuinely illiberal alternatives they cower in fear and defend the values of their inherently liberal societies in the midst of them whining about it.

This means that Fukuyama is the one that actually has the last laugh of course -- even liberalism's critics are just boring liberals. There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all. Anyone caught up in this debate about liberalism's terminal decline is not thinking enough in the long-term.

>>24510148 (OP)
>There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all
Does that matter when the west is losing its global hegemony?

>>24510148 (OP)
I was about to call you underage b& but then I realized 2018 was 7 years ago and now I'm wondering where all the time went

>>24510148 (OP)
>When faced with genuinely illiberal alternatives they cower in fear and defend the values of their inherently liberal societies in the midst of them whining about it.

Well, yeah. Just look at how many people, online and offline, freaked out about January 6th. You can say that the sack of the Capitol was a bunch of Boomers and nutters LARPing and doing nothing of real substance. But it did at least echo a genuine revolutionary moment. Members of Congress were made to feel fear for their lives. There was a sense of anarchy and genuine lawlessness.

And what did so many people do? They freaked out. They got cold feet. A number of people I know personally who had self-styled as revolutionaries and reactionaries, including some people who considered themselves genuine communists, were scared out of their minds by January 6th, and basically gave up all pretenses of wanting a radical change in the system. Most of them revealed themselves to be nothing more than boring, ordinary Democrats and Republicans who wanted all the thrills of pretending to be radicals without the consequences that would come from a radical project succeeding.

That said, I think you are wrong about there being virtually no non-liberals in the West. Quite the contrary, I see the rise of a genuine desire for authoritarianism among prominent figures on both the Left and the Right, these days. It's why I think one way or the other, America as we know it won't last too much longer.

death to the united states of america

>>24510177
I know I'm far too young to be making statements like this (boomers would argue it happened on 11/22/1963), but I think America really did die on 9/11

>>24510185
I always think of that old Osama Bin Laden meme, where it says, "I'm still free. Are you?".

>>24510148 (OP)
sorry but between the inevitable implosion of US debt (and subsequent hegemony) and technological advancement, liberal institutions and rule are going to get vaporized under either totalitarianism or civil war. at best we are going to get a benevolent military dictatorship that purges ZOG and the transhumanists from the face of the earth while starting from step 1 of rebuilding western culture

>>24510177
Jan 6th was a LARP that was allowed to happen. wake me up when someone flies a drone into peter thiel or alex karp and drops a manifesto along with it

>>24510197
The point is that even if it WAS a LARP it was sufficient to scare the shit out of all these people pretending to be revolutionaries. To OP's point, almost nobody is truly an illiberal when the rubber meets the road. At least not enough to put their money where their mouth is.

>>24510177
I got into a long drunked argument with a German soi and the only time I gave him pause was after he seethed about J6 and I asked him how they were different than the people who stormed the Bastille.

>>24510199
yeah, by your worthless internet anecdote.

>>24510210
The commie is mad he got called out.
I was at the house of people who had Che pictures on their wall and were in absolute SHOCK at J6.
I mean come on. Do you really think ANY socialists/ revolutionaries/ rage against machiners didn't freak out about it and call for severe government reprisal?

>>24510190
The rest of the world wants to be liberal. They're desperate to become spitting images of American life. There's no existential threat to America as it exists today besides Californian secession.

>>24510225
This is why I always feel like postliberals/illiberals need to be proactive. American Liberalism at its heart of hearts isn't going to die on its own. If you want it dead you're going to have to kill it.

>>24510225
Really? I don't think china or the saudis want to be like america

>>24510215
not one thing i've said gives any indication of where I lean politically. and sorry, but your pampered caviar socialist friends is again a worthless and limited anecdote, considering all the defacto and outright accelerationists on both aisles cheering on anything and everything that chips away at the paradigms hegemony.
>>24510225
liberalism is a mongrel ideology of the enlightenment that was built upon slavery, imperialism, plutocracy, and environmental terrorism, and has produced nothing but infinite consumerism, cultural flatness, asymmetrical economic dependencies, and moral rot, while trying to make gay butt sex out as the teleological triumph of human needs, wants, and destiny. the instant the US post-war order gives way and the world economy restructures, liberalism will be looked back on as nothing more than ideological window dressing used by the global plutocracy to rape and pillage the planet

if the bastard child of the enlightment, aka transhumanism and its deranged propagators dont murder the liberal paradigm, global war and environmental collapse will

>>24510258
The Saudis don’t? You might want to check up on what daily life in Riyadh is like

be honest, it was the time you stayed late

>>24510261
Did the saudis stop beheading fags/dissidents recently or something? There's more to liberalism than having luxuries

>>24510261
>authoritarian theocratic monarchy is liberal because it has gucci shops and western style supermarkets
starting to seem like people ITT dont know what liberalism actually is

>>24510225
Liberalism is only so powerful because America is so powerful. Liberalism is the ideology that justifies American imperialism. If America is ever beaten in a contest of strength (i.e by China in the Indo-Pacific) then liberalism itself will slowly wither away as people realise that it wasn't the ideology providing all the benefits, it was the richest and most powerful country in the world providing them out of a self-imposed moral imperative.

>>24510281
>>24510314
That is liberalism in reality. That's the American conceit, that liberalism means freedom and free expression, when it actuality the reason everyone likes it so much is because it makes them rich and comfortable.

>>24510380
No, it isnt. Thats just consumer capitalism, which is a prong of the west and liberalism, but if you actually bothered to read Fukuyama or Deneen, you'd know liberalism is entirely defined by political institutions like representative democracy and rule of law, which Saudi Arabia completely lacks. China has made tens of millions of its citizens more rich and comfortable, and its one of the farthest nations from being liberal in the world.

>Liberalism
>Failure
That sure is a funny way of using the word "failure"

>>24510380
>That's the American conceit, that liberalism means freedom and free expression, when it actuality...(some bullshit)
What is the root of the very term liberal? Liber, to be free and unrestricted. Liberty, which is synonymous with freedom. Stop pontificating.

>>24510390
lol

>>24510177
Here's Deneen with his favored authoritarian-esque conservative leader Viktor Orban in Hungary.

>>24510414
And here's Budapest yesterday at their record-breaking gay pride parade after Orban proudly banned it.

I think, relative to >>24510230 , OP is not quite right. Deneen DOES want Liberalism to fail, but on his terms, and he wants to replace it with a system of his choosing. Think of the flavor of Deneen's specific illiberalism. He's a Catholic who has reverted to the Faith in a serious way. The Church has ALWAYS been an enemy of Liberalism because Liberalism gets in its way. For the Church to return to prominence in a way that once again holds sway in the lives of billions, especially in the West, Liberalism is going to have to go.

This, to me, is transparently Deneen's motivation. He dislikes Liberalism because he's Catholic and has realized the two cannot coexist. The system Deneen would prefer to replace Liberalism with is basically a Catholic sociopolitical order, perhaps like Maritain's Catholic Social Democracy but in reality probably something more like a 21st century update of the old aristocracies. And those weren't fascism and weren't totalitarianism, not really. Deneen doesn't want to put the boot on anyone's neck because, frankly, that's not the Christian thing to do. But he does want to do away with political liberalism and neoliberal capitalism.

Pic related. Peter Thiel isn't the ONLY one who's been trying to groom JD Vance.

>>24510385
Liberalism not entirely defined by institutions. Liberalism is foremost a system of ethics, a successor to Christianity and a particular moral worldview based on the individual. From that foundation, you get liberal states and institutions. A person and a society can still be considered liberal without those institutions so long as they have the same worldview -- the worldview that is utilitarian, individualist and hedonist. If you can't get rid of this foundation, which is completely tied to our modern understandings of science and mathematics by the way, then you can't get rid of liberalism. It's not possible. A person who treats a therapist like a priest would never switch to seeing a priest when they are convinced that psychology is the objectively, factually correct way to understand humans as individual biological units. This is why liberalism persists and is able to be spread around the world through things like consumerism, because those facets of life (consumption, pleasure-seeking, cosmopolitanism) are tied to liberalism to begin with.

>>24510415
Doing things in a backwater like Hungary won't matter. You have to cut the head off the snake. Everybody realizes the game is in the United States.

>>24510260
>not one thing i've said gives any indication of where I lean politically.
Yes it does. You don't see it but it's obvious from the outside. Lefties have no clue how small minded and easily grokked they are.

>>24510225
"Liberal" means you don't get a family and kids, but you do get lots of gay sex. Nobody wants that. That's why the Taliban fought to the very end. Everyone who is beginning to understand this is doing similar.

>>24510385
>No, it isnt. Thats just consumer capitalism,
How do you even argue with someone this retarded. How do you spend all day on the internet and come away thinking this kind of shit.

>>24510392
Yeah North Korea is a Democratic People's Republic

>>24510445
Nope, go ahead and point out what I said about J6 that that gave any indication otherwise. I simply didn't, you're just trying to put retarded labels on things, especially when I identify as a hyper-reactionary more than anything at this point.

>>24510451
>ctrl+f: argument
>zero results found

>>24510434
Did you really type all that up in a vain effort to try to paint the Islamic theocratic petrol state that beheads people and stones women still as liberal purely because it has gucci and mass goyslop markets?

>>24510469
no he's just actually french and jealous

>>24510479
Much less the hyper-ethic Han authoritarian state the throws muslims into re-education camps and shoots billionaires in the back of the head when they get greedy and cross their communist party agenda. Neither Saudi Arabia and China respect individual dignity and rights, and demonstrate you can have hedonistic hyper-capitalism to develop their economies without letting fags and jews seizing power.

>>24510488
ethnic*

>>24510479
Saudi Arabia is not liberal. Its people are liberalizing and the country itself is a client state of international liberalism. The GCC model of governance is not a genuine alternative to liberalism for that reason. If liberalism exists in the hearts of the masses then they will seek it out in institutions, it’s inevitable.

>>24510380
>liberalism itself will slowly wither away as people realise that it wasn't the ideology providing all the benefits
1. The whole appeal of liberalism is that it convinces people that the reason its societies are successful is because they are liberal, and everyone else could be too if they were. This is easily contrasted with the potential of Islamic backwaters like Iran being castrated by a retarded theocracy and corrupt dictatorships in the global south who rob their people
2. Can you even disprove this idea? Why shouldn't we believe that liberal states like in the West are successful precisely because they're liberal democracies? Why else would they be so successful, how else could Poland be on track to surpassing the UK in wealth 30 years after becoming liberal? Liberalism WORKS. That's why it's dominant.

>>24510148 (OP)
Liberalism won't even last a generation the way things are going.

>>24510580
What is "liberalism"? Vax mandates? BLM riots? Ukraine proxy war? 1.5 TFR? Majority of young men incel? Girl bosses? Which part of this is liberal and which is responsible for prosperity?

>>24510597
The part that builds a competent bureaucracy and deep state, that has checks and balances to prevent corruption, that has a rule of law so strong no countryman or institution can bypass it, and which promotes the individual and his property rights to facilitate massive economic growth under capitalism. The parts that all make any liberal society prosper and dominate over the vast, vast majority of others while chuds keep squealing like fucking retards about the impending doomsday because they see a trans person play a sport

>>24510580
>Why shouldn't we believe that liberal states like in the West are successful precisely because they're liberal democracies?
The West was the most successful in the 1800's, when most countries were neither liberal nor democratic.

>>24510148 (OP)
>There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all
Are you sure about that?

>>24510181
You live in America, Kyle

>>24510148 (OP)
>liberalism's critics are just boring liberals
I don't think Islamists, postfascists, neo-reactionaires, or Marxists are anything remotely close to liberalism by any definition of the word, and those groups are the most influential anti-Liberals.
>There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all.
Nobody in the West actually has any faith in liberalism beyond lip service and virtue signalling to liberal values when it's convenient.
>Anyone caught up in this debate about liberalism's terminal decline is not thinking enough in the long-term.
The post-1991 world order is going to completely disintegrate in the near to medium term due to a combination of demographic collapse, sovereign default, and mass migration from illiberal societies/nations.

>>24510580
>Why shouldn't we believe that liberal states like in the West are successful precisely because they're liberal democracies?
Because they consistently undermine other liberal states for their own personal gain. If liberalism magically made people wealthier then liberal countries wouldn't need imperialism

>>24510741
This is what people like OP don’t get. Everyone is paranoid about our current moment even though technically things don’t seem too bad compared to the past because we all implicitly know how bad things are going to become. Literally everyone can feel it coming even if they don’t understand it, everyone. The demographics of the world are going to be fucked by declining fertility and migration, the post-war politics that have ruled us for decades will die with the boomers, the youth raised on the Internet who are illiterate retards obsessed with gay sex as their most sacred life goal will inherit the world, America will be surpassed by China since it’s the only country that cares about industry. This is all coming and liberal democracy has absolutely no answer for it. The people in these liberal states will naturally seek answers elsewhere — this already started in America with Trump and will only accelerate. Francis Fukuyama himself has recently said that pre-2016 liberalism is never coming back. Don’t forget that no matter how many young people around the world you see desire it, their views are worthless in the face of the machine and what it has in store for us.

>>24510158
America is actually winning the long game. China will peak during the next 20 years and then decline while America will only get stronger.

>>24510877
There is quite literally nothing happening in America right now that could make a person conclude this

>>24510877
If America wins it will do so illiberally. I think your point is probably about China's demographics, and how badly they have fucked themselves with the One Child policy. But America has fucked itself a lot, too, and to unfuck itself, America is going to need one man or a group of men wielding close to absolute power. A Caesar, basically. The legislature and the bureaucracy won't permit any other attempt to make the changes America needs to survive and thrive going forward. It will need to be someone whose word is law, a genuine Sovereign who can establish the State of Exception. America will fall apart, probably balkanize, if it does not get such a man.

>>24510877
Nobody's bringing bretton woods back. Pax americana is over

>>24510888
No it doesn't need any of that it just needs to keep eating up cheap workforce from Latin America and skilled workers from everywhere else.

>>24510901
Why do you think working people will want to move here after another 20 years of economic and social decline

>>24510907
>20 years of economic and social decline
lol

>>24510901
kek, how are you gonna deal with MAGA and white racial consciousness, that wants to kick them all out? You going to have a war over that?

>>24510916
MAGA and the Culture War are just the latest carrot they dangle to keep the populace busy. Republicans and Democrats are the same party.

>>24510420
Catholics only go so far with their illiberalism, the majority still end up just being foot soldiers for certain political parties or outright Zionist stooges like Rod Dreher. If you’re not creating a genuine, isolated alternative to liberalism then it doesn’t really matter what you preach. Catholicism isn’t distinguished enough from liberal democracies to pose any threat to it, the church is totally castrated anyways.

It’s commonly said that Marxism and Islam are the two main alternatives to liberal democracy. This is wrong. The real alternative is what connects both of them. What Saudi Arabia, Singapore, China, etc all have in common is a strong industrial base & bureaucracy which is then mediated by illiberal leadership and their values. The big secret? This is also how liberalism works. The only difference is that liberalism teaches us that its values are objectively correct and superior to all others, and anyone who doesn’t have “freedom” and “equality” can’t possibly become as developed as liberal states. All you have to do is organize your society well (which is a natural human function beyond any ideology) and tell liberal imperialists to fuck off with their foreign bombing campaigns and NGOs turning your children into trannies.

>>24510926
Catholicism brought down the Soviet Union, I wouldn't underestimate it.

>>24510934
Really fun fact: Poland was more Catholic under communism than it is now with liberalism.

>>24510898
kek at that image

>>24510950
The Church spent the 20th Century under the oppression of three great ideologies: Fascism, Communism, and Liberalism.

Two have been eliminated, and now it's time to eliminate the third, in Christ's name.

>>24510916
>MAGA and white racial consciousness
MAGA is already rebranding to a brown movement.

>>24510901
>our cute and valid latinx community will save us from china
holy kek

>>24510580
The very existence of China undermines the liberalism argument. Market-wise they are no different from any other nation, but values wise they reject the most fundamental tenets of liberalism.

>>24510871
>the youth raised on the Internet who are illiterate retards obsessed with gay sex as their most sacred life goal will inherit the world
These people will not inherit the earth as they will die off and never reproduce for ideological reasons. These people are the last true believers of the postwar order, and will die with the ship the way the last Soviets died with the failure of the August coup or the last Nazis in a burning Berlin.
The various schizos and fringe groups will inherit the earth as they are more likely to reproduce and survive, which is the scary thing.

>>24511017
>TradCaths
>Mormons
>Amish
>Muslims
>OrthoJews

God help us.

>>24511021
Southeast asians and latinos too!

>>24510148 (OP)
>them
Wtf is "them" supposed to be referring to?

>>24510148 (OP)
>but never replacing them
Wtf is "them" supposed to be referring to?

>>24510148 (OP)
>this one author only pretends to criticize liberalism, but is actually for liberalism
>than means this other author is right that all of liberalism's critics are for liberalism
>also there are no non-liberals at all in the West (unclear if this is the second author's claim or your claim)
>Anyone caught up in this debate about liberalism's terminal decline is not thinking enough in the long-term.
Because they're pretending to criticize liberalism while being for it?
horrible argument through and through

>>24510392
>Be me
>Sadist
>Stand on the street with a sign that reads "FREE DOM"
>I'm waiting, whip in hand.

>>24510420

>Here comes the dictator
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hl83Jpd_OI

...do ideologies even matter in any way? They seem completely protean to me, created for pragmatic reasons, to serve and hide pragmatic interests, and capable of becoming practically anything regardless of whether it makes sense or not as long as it is in the interests of the powers that be, like christianity over the last two thousand years. Ideology is fundamentally an effect, a tool, a product, not a cause. Liberalism is completely inert by itself, what people are actually mad at are cosmopolitan capitalists trying to smother everything and everyone they deem an obstacle or a potential source of danger.

>>24510148 (OP)
This is a dumb thread. What was your point again?

>>24511017
This has been disproven by the meteoric rise of Zohran Mamdani who is set to become mayor of the most important city in the Western world, a young 33 year old who represents all of the hyper-liberal politics of the global youth. These people do have an actual platform to reach positions of power and turn the world into a disgusting fucking mongrelized sandbox of immigrants, gay sex, gender fluidity, infertility, cultural homogenization and welfare leeching. It’s going to happen. He’s only the beginning of our future once boomers are out of the picture.

>>24511017
>The various schizos and fringe groups will inherit the earth as they are more likely to reproduce and survive, which is the scary thing.
Looks like your precious scientism has run out of steam. Press A to insert coin.

>>24511999
That's if it doesn't get bombed first

>>24512034
They’re going to try and deport him

>>24510148 (OP)
>This means that Fukuyama is the one that actually has the last laugh of course -- even liberalism's critics are just boring liberals. There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all. Anyone caught up in this debate about liberalism's terminal decline is not thinking enough in the long-term.

Wrong. Liberalism does indeed get some things right, and those can be kept. But the future lies in Catholic and Orthodox confessional states (the Schism being ended anyhow).

>>24511232
It's the same old straw man where the only alternatives are liberalism, Stalinism, or theocracy. Hence, any critic of liberalism who isn't in favor of Stalinism or theocracy is actually secretly a liberal.

It's a sort of Manicheanism. Actually, I can think that liberalism's anthropology, which really defines it, needs to be torn up root and branch as incredibly shallow, and dismiss Rawls, Hume, Smith, etc.'s idea of reason as wholly procedural AND still support republican government, religious freedom, a safety net, technological development, etc. But in dismissing liberalism's claim that considerations of human telos can be "bracketed out" of political consideration, I will cease to be a liberal. Things would look very different. Religion would not be defacto eliminated from public life. Education would focus on the development of virtue. Any safety net would focus on the common good, not the ability of atomized individuals to sait their appetites, etc.

>>24512573
Pope Leo is the last gasp of Vatican 2 and it's already clear that he's not nearly as bad as Francis, and may even be pretty good in some respects. The Church will probably be fixed within our lifetimes and that's going to be a hell of a thing. The modern world isn't used to the Church actually behaving like it's supposed to.

>>24512594
What happened to Vatican 1? Why is there a Vatican 2?

>>24510877
>just 2 more weeks
type of cope

>>24510901
As a latinx, I agree, let me in

>>24510914
>GDP
Nice shitpost

>>24510225
based on what? only countries that became liberal were couped or invaded by america

>>24510148 (OP)
>This means that Fukuyama is the one that actually has the last laugh of course -- even liberalism's critics are just boring liberals.
This reminded me of something. I was watching an old interview of Henry Kissinger by William F. Buckley from, like, 1975. It was pretty boring and nothing to really write about, but they were down bad because Saigon had just fallen to the communists. And Buckley was talking about whether Spengler had anything to say about this moment, and Kissinger more on the side of "Spengler pointed to some tendencies and we need to cope with this but it's not predestined that the West will fall" and it turned out that Kissinger was right.

I think it's kind of the nature of conservatism to sigh. It's always "sigh..." and then a treatise about losing something.

>>24510258
>Really? I don't think china or the saudis want to be like america
Sort of? Look at this:
https://youtu.be/C_BZQkU5Cds

It's not a liberal system of government. But Chinese are really imitative in reality, and the Saudis have for a long time now been rather bipolar about this. Out in public, it was all Wahhabism and the Mutaween (religious police), but inside people were living totally Americanized consumer lifestyles in which everything that we have here was available there. But the days of the religious police and well and truly dead. The thing is, MBS needs to do this to develop the economy, and to build a more complex economy than just relying on oil exports.

>>24510281
>Did the saudis stop beheading fags/dissidents recently or something?
It's more cultural / social liberalization that is fairly radical for Saudi Arabia combined with an intensifying repression of anybody who says shit about the government, so if you say anything on Twitter they'll arrest you or kill / disappear you. This also goes for the jihadi / Muslim Brotherhood / whatever types.

BTW, from what I can tell, the Al Qaeda / ISIS stuff looks (to me) like it's becoming more African. They have a lot to feast on in the Sahel, but what I expect from this new guy Sharaa in Syria is a more conservative "business Islam" (the Islam of businessmen, entrepreneurs, and traders) that's quite compatible with the U.S. and the Gulfies, and that will absorb and dilute the hardcore Islamic currents that are rolling around the country.

>>24512027
>your precious scientism
I'm a traditional Catholic :)
>>24511999
>turn the world into a disgusting fucking mongrelized sandbox of immigrants, gay sex, gender fluidity, infertility, cultural homogenization and welfare leeching
Retard, this has been happening for decades now and are the exact things I'm saying are going to destroy the postwar order.
>once boomers are out of the picture
1. Boomers are responsible for all of this and
2. I don't think you understand how incredibly schizo young men's politics actually are, and how out of step New York has always been with the rest of America. It has always been its own city-state deeply seperated from the rest of the country since the colonial period where it was founded as a Dutch trade hub. You are completely delusional if you think anything that happens in NYC is representative of the rest of the country, especially young people in the rest of the country given most young people don't even live in cities and are Suburban.

the older i get the more i think fukuyama might be right. the only thing preventing me from going full fukuyama is china.

the post liberals have an in with jd vance and marco rubio. If one of them became president they would take over the GOP with their catholic integralism

>>24510148 (OP)
>When faced with genuinely illiberal alternatives they cower in fear and defend the values of their inherently liberal societies in the midst of them whining about it.
Such as?

>>24512745
Or New York is in advance of the rest of the country. The other week I saw a Pride flag flying outside a construction materials manufacturer in a county Trump won with more than 80% of the vote. Yeah, things move back and forth, and I do think we're experiencing a conservative turn at the moment, but over the long term this is a big change from 50 years ago. What will the country (or the world) look like in another 50 years? I think we're heading into a cyberpunk future and people will be walking around with blue hair and biomechanical modifications and all kinds of things.

>>24510225
what about the existential threat of niggers out breeding us and technology slowly becoming unable to be developed and only maintained and then later not even that once the us has an average iq of 85?

the future of american politics is illilberal nationalism of the trumpian type on the GOP side and bernie style social democracy on the democrats side, but it will be a longer journey for the soc dems because the ancinet DNC like nancy pelosi, chuck schumer, refuse to quit or die

>>24512768
also want to add, that mexico already laid the template for the rise of soc dems in america with AMLO and sheinbaum.

the pink tide will have finally reached north america

>>24510448
>That's why the Taliban fought to the very end.
But nobody else is following the Taliban as a model of development except for bush Africans in Burkina Faso. The center of the world economy does not revolve around Afghanistan.

The big mistake the Russians are making is thinking America is just going to collapse. That's not going to happen anymore than it was going to happen during the Cold War, but it's a narrative they want to believe in for their own internal political reasons, it's not a reflection of reality. It's just a story they ~tell themselves~ to make them feel good. The size and power of the U.S. is now a relatively permanent state of affairs in the world, and it can decrease in relative terms (like vis-a-vis China) but in absolute terms it's going to be remain very powerful. The rise of China is a return to its historic role as a major power and center of world trade. And the 21st century is mainly going to be defined by the contest between the U.S. and China.

>>24512636
It got... reformed.

>>24511174
doesnt fuckyourmama say that ideology doesnt matter at the end of history, power does.

Have you ever noticed that in these threads the anti-liberals sound smart and write well-thought out and articulate arguments while the end of history cheerleaders always respond with "umm akshully" posts?
Curious.

>>24512761
>The other week I saw a Pride flag flying outside a construction materials manufacturer in a county Trump won with more than 80% of the vote
Why do you think there's any correlation between Trump support and social conservatism, or any real social conservatism in the U.S outside of the niche communities mentioned itt? Trump has infamously doged anything related to social policy except tranny stuff for both of his terms. Plenty of fags support Trump (your pride flag in the photo ironically being an example given it's an old rainbow pride flag that's been reappropriated by "anti-woke" fags, and not picrel which is preferred by the establishment and the left).
>over the long term this is a big change from 50 years ago.
Gee I wonder what happened 50 years ago that could've cause this dramatic and sharp turn towards all this bullshit. Couldn't have possibly been the Boomers dominating everything disproportionately since the late 1960s.
>I think we're heading into a cyberpunk future and people will be walking around with blue hair and biomechanical modifications and all kinds of things.
I think it will be a lot worse than that and very different due to technological advancement slowing to a crawl outside of communications, birthrate collapse being followed by population collapse, and the global economy based on infinite population growth collapsing with it; which will make all the social and demographic conflicts on the horizon far, far worse.

>>24512809
>picrel
LMAO wrong pic, I meant to post picrel

>>24512804
The funny thing is that a lot of the "anti-liberals" in these threads and elsewhere online often aren't even anti or non-liberals, they're other, smarter liberals worried about certain policies and dogma in the postwar order that are dooming it to a death spiral; while the true believers stick their fingers in their ears and call them nazis or commies or whatever for bringing up these very reasonable criticisms.

>>24512804
well you see, its the correct politico-anthropology that everyone wants to be a slop consuming sodomite ruled over by a secretive cabal of globalist plutocrats

>>24512594
No one believes in religion anymore. Any resurgence you see is fake. Purely aesthetics devoid of any substance. It's a fad. None of them believe in God, or take interest in theology. It's just the new cool kids club.

>>24512871
This is a demonic delusion friend.

>>24512879
Ok maybe the orthodox (and only some) do but they're basically third worlders on the same level as Thai buddhist monks

>>24512871
O ye of little faith, why do you doubt?

>>24510877
Hahaha if America could be a superpower without Whites, it would've been one before. America as we know it will not survive the next fifty years. Especially considering Israeli control over it and the Samson Option. Imagine spending your peak as a puppet state of a country one percent your size on the other side of the world. Fucking lmao.

>>24510148 (OP)
>even liberalism's critics are just boring liberals
...and?

>be me, an Athenian logographos and an appreciator of Athenian Democracy
>hear my friend tell me about this man Plato and his concepts of a Republic
>understand that when faced with genuinely undemocratic alternatives Plato cowers in fear and defends the values of our inherently democratic polis in the midst of him whining about it
>this means Athenian Democracy is eternal, since the issue of it's continuance is decided entirely on how consistent it's contemporary internal critique is, and not on whether we get conquered and buckbroken by the Romans

>>24513609
Man, I can just tell, though, I prophesy, that Israel and all the Jews in it are going to meet a horrific end. You can feel their doom counting down. Something terrible is going to happen to Israel, I'd bet within the next decade.

>>24513609
What do you mean it would have been one before you imbecile.
This is literally the first time in history it becomes non-white.

>>24512871
>no one believes in religion anymore
>for the exact same reasons that most religious people were faking it in every previous generation
Man if only The Bible expounded on this issue in specific and drawn out detail multiple times.

>>24513720
>This is literally the first time in history it becomes non-white.
Anon I know this might sound distressing but Whites people sailed to a continent already inhabited and settled by non-White people.

>>24510148 (OP)
You need to study logic and rhetoric because you don't know how to make an argument.

>>24510209
>I asked him how they were different than the people who stormed the Bastille.
Bro is really making comparisons with the French revolution

>>24510394
How can countries be the largest trading partner of themselves

>>24512593
You go from ONE author says something to drawing a conclusion about ALL authors, and ALL people. Shit thread. Learn logic. You're calling your own post a straw man? Learn basic logic.

>>24510687
Cultural and legal aspects highly prioritised by liberal ideology such as rule of law, contract enforcement and openness to innovation were helpful factors in Western states outperforming competitors with rigid institutions or hierarchies in the 1800s.

The idea that you can bring about meaningful and lasting social and political improvements by violent regime change is a marxist revolutionary one. The fact that supposed "conservatives" and "reactionaries" can consider this a reasonable and effective approach is proof of how deeply ingrained marxist thought has become in our culture and therefore in each of us.

Deneen, a faithful catholic, knows that social and political change must happen organically, downstream from religion and culture. Totalitarian attempts at creating, maintaining or restoring a "Catholic society" have only succeeded in creating what any totalitarian regime creates: their own eventual demise, leaving frightened populations of docile imbeciles ready to give themselves over to the first next Big Man or Big Idea willing to rid them of the horrible burden of their newfound freedom, which they've been rendered completely unable to handle by the State. For a concrete example, look at what's become of Salazar's Portugal.

True and lasting change and improvement must be anchored on the will of God and therefore on the free will of individuals. This is achieved over a long span of time through strength of religion and culture, not political movements. For this to happen, there must be a solid, powerful, constant intellectual and cultural force, independent and wary of all political action and strife, capable of informing and shaping the consciousness of all individuals who seek it, from the bottom up and from the top down. This force can only be the Catholic Church.

Repent and believe in the gospel.

>>24513881
>bring about meaningful and lasting social and political improvements by violent regime change
That's imperialism 101 retard, every ideology does this

>>24513886
you're responding to bait you IDIOT

>>24513881
>social and political change must happen organically, downstream from religion and culture
What about organic violent regime change downstream of violent religion and culture though?

>therefore on the free will of individuals
Individuals can commit violence on a massive scale out of their free will tho.

>>24513887
Those types of Catholic posters on this board can be safely ignored in general

the thread should be titled "why being a pseud failed", referring to OP of course

>>24512745
>the exact things I'm saying are going to destroy the postwar order
This is common belief with all you people but there is absolutely no reason to think this will happen. Those decadent social tendencies have already been with us since the 1950s. All of this “woke” stuff was already present with the boomers during the 60s and 70s and arguably even more aggressive than today. Things turned out fine and those boomers went on to lead America into global hegemony. Why should we think “okay THIS time liberalism is gonna collapse under its own weight?” America is already 50% non-white and continues to be the dominant force.

>>24513950
>What about organic violent regime change downstream of violent religion and culture though?
This is has been the omnipresent trend over the last 400 years. You can witness the results for yourself.
>Individuals can commit violence on a massive scale out of their free will tho.
Of course, but what good do you think would come of it?
>>24514349
Why?

>>24514404
What is so hard for people in this thread to understand exactly? People like Deneen, Vance, Yarvin etc are not actually on some quest to overthrow the liberal order. So long as America exists then so will the liberal order. The intention of their critiques isn’t revolution, it’s maintenance. What has happened is that a broad coalition of forces have become paranoid about the West’s decline and the rise of powers of like China, the same paranoia that led to America’s wars in the Middle East after being humiliated by Osama. Many people part of this ostensibly conservative movement critique liberalism like Thiel and Deneen but the vast majority want to revitalize it by shedding its excesses. Even critics like Deneen inadvertently serve this purpose even though it seems on the surface he genuinely wants a new political order entirely (until it comes time to shilling for political parties in liberal countries of course). Their goal is to turn the West more aggressive, more authoritative and less tolerant of movements like progressivism, Islam, etc. They found their strongman in Trump and they found their excuse to trample civil liberties on October 7. Gaza is basically a trial run to see how much they exercise their power and kill a metric fuckton of people & suspend privacy rights in the West without the world caring. It’s basically a rebirth neoconservatism and we just saw it all play out successfully with the Iran debacle. It doesn’t go as far with the foreign intervention, but it goes even further with Western supremacist attitudes, fearmongering that Muslims and leftists will conquer the West, positing that the West is a paradise of liberal freedom compared to the tyranny of China or Islamic states, etc. That’s the angle of liberalism at this current moment and people like Deneen, who have had a direct influence on statesmen like Vance, are partly responsible for giving the wake-up call. The true transition out of liberalism hasn’t occurred yet — we are in the phase of liberalism being contradicted in the name of protecting its power. It’s difficult to figure out if it it’ll be sustained in the long-term given the simultaneous dominant power yet extreme decadence of the West but right now there’s no sign of apocalypse.

>>24514523
didn't read your shitpost since you made zero arguments in the OP, just wanted to tell you your thread sucks and to study logic that's all, bye moron

>>24514544
You should stick to the gay write your thoughts chatroom threads if you’re just going to post worthless shit

>>24514408
>All of this “woke” stuff was already present with the boomers during the 60s and 70s and arguably even more aggressive than today.
That's because the long-term effects if it hadn't come to fruition; America still had it's industry, the country aws still overwhelmingly White outside of the South and various urban areas, and the financial plenty and potential of the postwar era was still there given the deficit spending spree and shift away from the gold standard had just started.
>those boomers went on to lead America into global hegemony.
The U.S succceeded in spite of the Boomers because the USSR was so broken, rotten, and incompetent by the 80s the U.S won by default.
>THIS time liberalism is gonna collapse under its own weight
Because "liberalism" is no longer liberalism and hasn't been since the 60s. It is not the liberalism of the founding fathers or even Churchill and Kennedy; it's modern monetary theory mixed with postmodern Marxist social policy/engineering. These two things combined are a cancer and ticking time bomb for any society because it will
1. Deficit spend itself into sovereign default while
2. Deliberately sowing deep ethnic and cultural divisions by destroying the traditional demographic makeup and identity of the country without replacing it with something new and unifying.
>America is already 50% non-white and continues to be the dominant force.
It continues for now because it's still running off the inertia of the victories of the Cold War and WWII, which is grinding to a halt and has been in my lifetime. Most emires tend to peak in terms of territory long after they reached their cultural/economic apex.

>>24514585
Your OP is just that, worthless shit

>>24510177
I always got the feeling that when left-liberals were whining about the capital riot they were doing so largely out of envy. But 2020 discredited almost every radical. My anarchist friends insisting on masks was the final nail in a coffin full of em

>>24513860
>rule of law, contract enforcement and openness to innovation
Nazi Germany was liberal then.

People who think the US is on the verge of collapse are so fucking stupid.

>>24510260
>has produced nothing but infinite consumerism, cultural flatness, asymmetrical economic dependencies, and moral rot, while trying to make gay butt sex out as the teleological triumph of human needs, wants, and destiny. the instant the US post-war order gives way and the world economy restructures, liberalism will be looked back on as nothing more than ideological window dressing used by the global plutocracy to rape and pillage the planet
Elegantly stated. I've come to this same conclusion.

>>24510624
>The part that builds a competent bureaucracy and deep state, that has checks and balances to prevent corruption,
Deep state that prevents corruption? Cognitive dissonance much?

>>24515514
No, you see the CIA needed to work with mobsters to try to kill Castro and the FBI needed to infiltrate child porn rings for national security!!! Anid you dare say that said mobsters killed JFK or that the pedo rings took over federal law enforcement, then you're a deranged conspiracy theorists who wants the down fall of America >:(!!!!!

>>24515561
You have to love oligarchs and their henchmen corrupting the government and shoving degeneracy down everyone's throat, because of freedom or something.

op the book is called "why liberalism failed" not "why liberalism sucks so we should give communism another try even tho all the previous tries resulted in the deaths of 100 million people"

>>24515366
See: half of this thread calling OP a retard

>>24510148 (OP)
>This means that Fukuyama is the one that actually has the last laugh of course
Fukuyama's arguments could be use to justify a theocratic communist dictatorship given how bland and generic they are.

>There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all
There are probably more intellectuals adhering to some niche ideologies than intellectuals adhering to generic liberalism

>>24510580
>1. The whole appeal of liberalism is that it convinces people that the reason its societies are successful is because they are liberal, and everyone else could be too if they were.
That's the goal of any cosmopolitan ideology. Besides, culturally, liberalism means gay butt sex to non-liberal countries.

>2. Can you even disprove this idea?
The USSR was the 2nd most powerful state for almost a century, China and most successful asian states were/are authoritarian states with regulated capitalism/socialism, Africa's best states were socialist, Bhutan showcases that material & spiritual comfort can surpass a desire for recognition etc. I could also list all the issues within liberalism but it's clear that liberalism' success is more due to its place in history as coined by Euros when they were powerful than some 'end of history' movement.

>>24511999
Ironically Mamdani's rise goes against the traditional liberalism mindset imo. His economic policies aren't exactly "liberal" and afaik his woke issues like gender and religion weren't at the center of his speech.
I think he and Trump represent two sides of the same coin. A desillusion with liberalism where one side wants to go back on the social issues (gender, immigration etc) but wants to keep the liberal economy and another one on economic issues (free market, individual property rights, neoliberalism & consumption) but wants to keep "social" rights.

>>24513881
you and all the other christians shitting up the thread are b8; esthetics shouldn't be the reason you convert.

>>24515252
In no way whatsoever
Rule of law was subordinated to Hitler's will
Contracts were vulnerable to arbitrary confiscation or state override e.g. confiscation of Jewish goods
Innovation outside regime priorities was suppressed or demonised

Used pragmatically as a tool, not at all enshrined or prioritised

>>24510148 (OP)
Love the part of this where he lists off like 15 different types of human collectivities that need to regain their social and political significance but forgets race and ethnicity

>>24516220
How on earth was the confiscation of Jewish goods "arbitrary"? It was based on the entire party line of the Nazis.
It's like saying American law is arbitrary because they have fag parades.

>>24516225
So you're saying the party line of the Nazis didn't respect contract enforcement

>>24516227
What contracts did they have with Jews?

>>24516223
Not every anti-liberal is a chud, especially a midwit chud that obsesses over race.

>>24516229
Jewish businesses were forcibly sold at below-market rates through state pressure invalidating normal contract protections

>>24516233
Were those contracts signed by the Nazi government officials? Did they ever promise contract protections for Jews?
I really don't follow what you're saying here.

>>24516237
Then I'll summarise the difference, it's about the degree of system integrity and ideological conditionality

Liberal States: Imperfect but formal and systematic respect for contracts. Legal recourse, property rights, and impartial dispute resolution.

Nazi Germany: Superficially similar, subordinated entirely to ideological priorities. No systematic respect, defined entirely by the will of the state

>>24516253
Nazi Germany not respecting the contracts made by the Weimar government they overthrew doesn't mean they were inconsistent.
Also, are you really that sure that European empires that controlled about half of the world during the 1800's had great respect for property rights, dispute resolution and legal recourse? Especially in their colonies?

>>24516253
You can't just call a "pay for play" legal system as imperfect to win an argument.

>>24516230
They were conspicuous by their absence and anti-racism is what liberalism is currently staking its entire authority and reason for being on. This is because race issues and disparities have persisted through hundreds of years of liberal dominance, so it's the most essential barrier to break down. It needs to do this to prove to itself that humans are indeed equal individual rational actors, that is, souls with rights who are currently arbitrarily divided by the accident of birth and the prison of flesh. It's Christianity 2

>>24516286
>race issues and disparities have persisted through hundreds of years of liberal dominance
*Have decreased

>>24516264
>the Weimar government they overthrew
Hitler did not overthrow the Weimar government, he came to power through legal means

>>24516323
Yes he did. The elections were fake and he violently purged his competitors.

>>24516336
Hitler did not seize power through a fake election or military coup
Oppression of elections only occured after Hitler had already become Chancellor in January 1933, not during his initial takeover of 1932

>>24516347
I have no interest in debating this point. The fact of the matter is that the Nazi government felt no responsibility to uphold Weimar culture or contracts.

>>24516385
>I have no interest in debating this point
That's because there is no debate, I've presented fact

>>24513881
You can defeat evil, though, and that's what the Liberal Order led by America is. It needs to go, for the good of everyone but especially Christians.

Regimes and political orders, even global orders, can be destroyed, for the good of all. What comes next doesn't necessarily need to be forced, but the evil itself must be undone.

Note that the destruction need not be violent. Consider >>24510934 . The Soviet Union fell without a shot fired.

>>24510148 (OP)
Liberalism here just means being a cuck to jews. They'd never replace that.

>>24516708
America is nowhere near as bad as the Soviet Union was. Again the biggest threat to America right now is if Mamdani’s example of woke social democracy continues to become so popular that an utterly libtard state like California decided to secede and become its own country

>>24517764
>America is nowhere near as bad as the Soviet Union was.

In its own way, I'd argue it is. The United States has presided over the death of Truth, the death of Tradition, the death of Beauty and Goodness. That, actually, is what Liberalism does. If everyone is, essentially, free to hold their own truths, and if Liberal Democracy is, in a sense, a political system of competing truth claims, then universal Truth has no place in it. Liberalism taken to its logical conclusion is an enemy of Truth. Individual liberty, taken to its extremes, is an enemy of Truth. And this makes it all very bad indeed.

The only issue with Deneen is that he is a bit of a leninist in his desire to create a new conservative elite to takeover the institutions of the united states government. Dreher was far more correct in advocating that traditional Christians just split off from society like mormons or amish and create their own social and poltical structures.
Ideally I would like this to occur in several midwestern states. Trad caths who form their own communities and have 8 children per family and then gradually take over local and state institutions and drive away the trannies, faggots, feminists, normies, pajeets, and other vermin

>>24510415
How does this even happen? Was it AstroTurfed by activists from the EU to oppose the ban? Seeing an image like this makes me despondent about the future. It's like liberalism is all powerful.

>>24518239
Why would Dreher's strategy be more correct? Break away from mainstream society and develop small Catholic communities (that just shill for Israel)? That is not a recipe for long-term success

>>24518386
Yet people in this thread insist it's on the brink of collapse even when faced with the reality that most people in the West at least simply desire liberalism. None have even countered my admittedly long explanation >>24514523

>>24518523
Ultimately Liberalism is going to have to be killed. It won't collapse on its own. If that means the United States has to be killed too, so be it. Deneen may not be a radical on this, but some of us are.

>>24518532
I don't think Liberalism can keep a country together indefinitely. A nation run by gay pirates can't last.

>>24514523
>>24518523
Honestly the older I get the more liberal I become. I converted to Catholicism in my late teens/early twenties but I slowly became disillusioned with it and in turn with any ideology claiming absolute truth. I am conservative in my manners and disposition, I don't particularly like gays, I dislike sex and I wish women would cover up, I like some level of ethnic homogeneity, and in theory I see the benefits of an oppressive autocratic regime. But I can't get behind any radical movement that wants to claim absolute power for itself. Ive found theyre too dogmatic, their thinking is too dichotomous and rigid, they are often full of stupid people with stupid ideas.

>>24518541
This is blatantly obvious to everyone except for a few tards in this thread. So what if most people still want to protect liberal societies and assert their dominance more, whether they are progressive or conservative? That society will decay and be surpassed by others because liberalism quite explicitly has made gay butt sex and comfort its highest ideal instead of struggle, national unity, industry, etc. It's inevitable. It makes no difference if these societies are still liberal. In the end they will be failing societies with a collapsing population and low trust.

>>24514523
what a load to cope to deal with the fact that the current right thats in power wants to turn the USA into a zionist transhuman totalitarian state. you totally misunderstand thiel and yarvin

>>24514738
>I always got the feeling that when left-liberals were whining about the capital riot they were doing so largely out of envy.
100%
True-blue liberals still brag about inheriting the legacy of people who protested and fought for civil rights. They're obsessed with the martyrdom that comes with resisting tyranny. In some ways, you could say their entire worldview is about finding injustices to rebel against to LARP through the religious high of being part of a tide of justice or some shit.
So, winding up in a position where they're the draconian authority figures who are ruled by the rich, corporations, mass media, etc... It just has them in a cognitive dissonance rage. If they had rioted against Trump and the exact same shit had happened, they'd have labelled in one of the most heroic moments in history and genuinely compared themselves to the French Revolution. Instead, they just seethe and bitch about it while they sell their souls deeper and fuller to NeoLib corporate interests.

>>24518601
You have the mentality of a hobbit.

>>24518601
Truth is the only thing worth fighting and dying for.

>>24519544
mega based

>>24510188
Jesus. Kino.

>>24512593
This. We need to ban porn, ban fast food, ban a ton of evil shit that leads souls astray. Life should be led by men of piety and honor, not fucking mob rule by effeminate faggots. I will live to see a world of piety and justice.

I think the real answer to or solution for liberalism goes through liberalism. If you elevate human freedom you're gonna be down on pornography and other faggot shit, because strong stimuli like that corrupt and decay the value of human freedom, as does the weakness inculcated by having no social group or tribe. Man needs people, a belief system, and a reasonably stable life. Not this endless faggotry and hormonal poisoning. The passions corrupt freedom, they do not help it. This is the only argument fierce and forceful enough to defeat faggotry.

>>24517804
Pretty good argument. The human race has to have enough, as a whole, at a certain point. Maybe it's up to Africans.

>>24517804
This, the U.S literally managed to kill reality itself.

>>24519349
>In the end they will be failing societies with a collapsing population and low trust.
Hey! I've visited that city!

Pic related is a really great, much deeper expansion on what Deneen is talking about from the lens of philosophy. I'd also highly recommend Charles Taylor's A Secular Age on this same topic. Actually, Taylor is more accessible and doesn't presuppose a lot of knowledge of philosophy. If you're not Christian, he will also be a bit more appealing.

Others have written on this quite well too, D.C. Schindler, David Bentley Hart, etc. Together I think they offer an extremely strong positive alternative to liberalism and post-modernism, whereas post-modern theorists only offer up critique (granted, some of it is quite good). Yet their core insights re politics don't require Christian revelation. They draw on themes that are in Pagan classical thought, Islamic and Jewish thought, Indian and Chinese thought—the only thing they really seek to transcend (and certainly not while rejecting everything) is Enlightenment "secularism."

I think this is ultimately the only way to reach a real post-modernity, and not the ersatz post-modernity we have, which is really just hyper modernity, a new Reformation, this time against Enlightenment reason and liberalism. What is needed instead is the recovery of the classic, and to pair away what is deficient in the modern, namely a sort of overweening pride that absolutizes human reason as a "system" and makes freedom a sort of sheer volanturist movement towards arbitrary desire. That is, the recovery of a sense of man's telos, his rational appetites for Goodness, Beauty, and Truth, and the dictum that epithumia and thymos must be ordered to a higher logos, one that brings us beyond the limits set by current belief and desire.

>>24519358
You are a fool for thinking a Zionist transhumanist totalitarian state is not the natural conclusion of liberalism. They are not separate things. Liberalism will still claim to be liberalism even when it really isn’t.

>>24522205
Really, the unequal biological and technical augmentation of zionists elites, creating a caste society, that uses arbitrary total state terrorism to terrorize the rest of the people, is the natural end state of liberalism, the ideology that upholds that all men are equal, deserving of equal rights, and protection from arbitrary-absolutist government powers? Or are you just being a contrarian faggot?
>Liberalism will still claim to be liberalism even when it really isn’t.
What a load of crap. This just indicates you are being a bad faith wishy washy fag defining things in a manner that will always move goal posts and just "prove" you right. No point arguing from here.

Like the rest of this retarded thread, I doubt you could clearly and analytically define liberalism even if your family was held at gun point.

>>24522223
Liberal democracy is responsible for every atrocity being committed right now in Gaza just as it is responsible for every atrocity committed in the name of the white man's burden, the spread of freedom, the civilizing of the uncivilized, the liberation of the oppressed, and the long march towards freedom. Liberalism is the system that is wedded to Zionism. We can argue all day of these actions are "really liberal" just like people may argue whether the Catholic Church is "really Christian." It doesn't matter. This is the system that exists and that guides everything that happens in the world today. Whatever exists that contradicts it from its own ranks is a consequence of its own incoherence and inevitable seeds of self-destruction. Liberalism only persists for this long because people like you pull out the "not real liberalism" card and absolve it from being responsible for its own empire of blood and oil that upholds cults like Zionism and clamps down on its citizens while claiming to give them freedom

>>24510877
Stronger at what? Being a massive retard?

>>24510888
China can fix that in 5 years with crispr gene editing and artificial insemination

>>24514523
the failed wars themselves "humiliated" america far more than osama ever did
it's like you get the parts but you have it completely backwards. like the neocons who deluded themselves into believing liberalism had failed because of 70s crime rates

>>24522558
Those wars only happened because they were asshurt about Osama and wanted to flex the superiority of liberalism

>>24510177
You could argue that the Jan 6 protesters were attempting a counter-revolution and were thus bad according to the standards of center-left liberalism. Institutions, norms, and procedures need to be respected unless there's a moral emergency of some sort that compels us to do otherwise.

>>24523783
Most of the jan 6ers genuinely believed the election was rigged and thought they were fighting for democracy/liberty/whatever, it was a liberal phenomenon

>>24521988
Interesting

>>24524189
They may have, but liberalism is also a set of beliefs, norms, and institutions, which the protesters largely opposed. From a left-liberal perspective, you could even justify fraud as necessary to protect said beliefs, norms and institutions against the masses in this particular case, who have had their brains rotted by social media, Russian disinformation, etc.

>>24524466
I forgot to clarify that although some of them may claim to support the Constitution or whatever, they're opposed to the spirit of it. Most of them are racists, for example, or want to manipulate the judiciary to revoke women's rights. They just want to co-opt American institutions towards essentially harmful ends. This is why we need to both respect liberal institutions, norms, and values and also understand why they exist and what they're trying to secure.

>>24510177
Jan 6th could never have succeeded because it was based on misinformation and lies about an election that fall apart under scrutiny. The problem wasn't the riot, the problem was the reason.

>>24510877
China is illiberal in name only, and even that facade is receding.

>>24522315
The universalist doctrine that has you give a shit about whatever is “happening” in Gaza is nothing more than strain of liberalism.
Honor to your people, your heritage, your progeny is the most illiberal of notions, yet formulated succinctly in the preamble to the US Constitution.

>>24524466
I mean yeah, american politics is basically just liberals arguing with each other. MAGA types think america's institutions have failed to uphold liberal values (although more recently we're seeing anti-liberal tendencies so that may be changing.)
>>24524494
>Constitution or whatever, they're opposed to the spirit of it. Most of them are racists, for example, or want to manipulate the judiciary to revoke women's rights
My guy, do you know what the original writers of the constitution thought about women/blacks? The better example to use would be their support for federal agencies like ICE, but even a lot of the constitutions framers wanted to expand the federal government

>>24518518
>Break away from mainstream society and develop small Catholic communities (that just shill for Israel)?
this nigger clearly thinks catholics are like evangelicals

i made a thread a long time ago, why does it matter if god is real now?

>>24522315
>>24514523
this is the correct assessment. liberalism in decay is still liberalism contrary to what everyone else constantly claims because the ideology itself is too ambiguous to be considered some official codified doctrine with orthodox rites

>>24525407
>liberalism in decay is still liberalism contrary to what everyone else constantly claims because the ideology itself is too ambiguous
This is as retarded as commies that think everything that isn't some strain of Marxism is fascism.

>>24519501
>>24514738
>>24510177
Once again, the "radical left" are just champagne socialists seeking social credit by virtue signaling.
The irony about liberal progressives is how they've become the conservatives of the American Empire while the Republicans are the actual progressives seeking a dismantling of empire building and a return to republic.

>>24510197
Your entire personality profile is documented in a database, 3 letter agencies already know what you're going to do before you do it. If you even decided to build a Silencer, the ATF would be on your ass breaking down your fence within a fortnite.
The idea that a citizen can accomplish sourcing materials and building a bomb, then piloting a drone which requires a full pilot's license to operate and a flight tracker to even lift off the ground, it's beyond ludicrous that someone can perform a hit with a drone in a western nation.

If it ever happens I'll be shocked, but commercial drones are under higher scrutiny than a conceal carry licensed.
BTW they have drone trackers that can pickup drone signals 2km away, I bet private security services are using them already.

>>24512804
There are no liberals on 4chan just as there are no right wing users on reddit.
Even on twitter, which is supposed to be a meeting ground for both sides, is dominated by an algorithm that cordons everyone off from organic interactions.

>>24517764
California will never secede, let's straighten that out.
The only places that vote democrat are the illegals living in sanctuary cities, which is why the Dem mayors were fighting ICE from deporting their voter base. Trump is literally destroying the democrat energy from California, which used to be a red state.

Gavin Gruesome has no constituency, he's just an American Blue Blood who benefited from the Clinton Democrat empire. Now that it's dismantled he will retire.

>>24525532
It's larger than this. Previously liberal whites saw first hand how Democrats destroyed cities like L.A. and San Francisco with their terrible policies. I wouldn't be surprised if California rebounded suddenly toward more sensible, conservative representatives.

>>24525555
>sensible conservative representatives
Anon...

>>24510148 (OP)
That was difficult to read. Can you say what you mean instead of beating around le bush?

Also This is a good excuse to rant about my own theory, of which yours is a subset.
I have seen a lot of literature which boils down to 'here are societies problems, and heres how we fix them'
The writer is often correct in identifying problems, incorrect in how to fix them. Makes sense, cause they start with what they see, after that its imagination. Unless someone is discussing something they have witnessed personally it should be viewed with skepticism.

>>24525499
Seems easier than going to flight school with your bros and hijacking a few commercial airliners with box cutters and smashing them into skyscrapers actually. Also remember when that Japanese guy built that homemade shotgun and blasted the prime minister? Minority Report crime prediction and iron dome drone security can't change the fact that humans are all walking talking bags of bone and blood who like to gather in crowds. Your "nothing ever happens" mentality seems unrealistic to me.

It always annoys me in these conversations how "liberalism" has two meanings. You have liberalism in the sense of various rights and freedoms, but there is also liberalism as the catch all term for capitalism+democracy+liberalism. Its not always clear which of the two terms someone is thinking of in conversations

>>24525433
No it isn’t, it’s the opposite of that. It’s actually you people who resemble the commies in looking at everything bad produced from a particular ideology and going “well that’s not REALLY socialism/liberalism etc that’s more fascism.” Meaningless drivel.

>>24526390
>looking at everything bad produced from a particular ideology and going
But liberalism, specifically neoliberalism, is quite literally the root of every major problem in every major Western country.

>>24526748
That is what I'm saying. Whatever exists now that contradicts liberalism (Trump likening himself to all-powerful king let's say for example) only exists from liberalism's own faults. It is directly responsible for its undoing

>>24526933
It is dialectical, you see

>>24510177
A bunch of out of touch rich people were afraid of a mob of people they thought were going to kill them, people who stood around and left on their own the second a bullet was fired.

That is what they were afraid of.

Not the hoards of mexicans coming in that will not respect our laws, social contract, or traditions - that traffick drugs and humans and cut off peoples heads....they somehow think they are 'the good whites' for hating their own culture and life

>>24525556
>yeah lets spend billions to house, feed, and straight up GIVE MONEY to immigrants who don't work, instead of spending it on bridges, road repair, schools, after school programs, policing, or drug abatement

people who don't want liberalism in general want liberalism like

>>24528935
As opposed to "sensible conservatives" that want to cut funding for everything and give all our money to the Pentagon, federal agencies, and Israel, while still letting millions of Jeets into the country via H1B loopholes?
Democracy doesn't work.

>>24527654
As are most things

>>24528935
But enough about Ronald Reagan.

>>24512680
Just wait for the Great Boomer Die-off, anon. Every country will become liberal, every population will become liberal. I mean that in a very loose sense but ultimately the average young person in the world is a retarded parasite raised on Western morality, Western Internet and entertainment. They are going to want to imitate the liberal West once elder generations aren't there to stop them (see Turkey and Iran for example and their secular youth). Liberalism is going to win in the end, it's just going to take a bit more time to get there.

It won't be a very good world though.

>>24510148 (OP)
liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. just like capitalism, liberalism needs constant change to keep spreading.

>>24527654
What makes you think we won't just enter a Roman-style collapse? Here is an interesting article from John Gray
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2025/04/the-west-realism-of-religion
>The irreplaceable value of Judaeo-Christian religion is that it taught its practitioners how to live with insoluble dilemmas. So, too, did pagan tragic art. Politics was not the pursuit of earthly salvation but a succession of expedients for coping with evils that cannot be eradicated. Unless the sense of reality preserved in these traditions can somehow be retrieved, the West is destined to stumble from one fantasy to another until, perhaps with relief, it surrenders to barbarism.

liberalism is the ideology of gooners

>>24530692
>Every country will become liberal, every population will become liberal.
Anon, Boomers are the one holding the liberal consensus together. Without them, various types of post-Marxists and post-Fascists jockey for power and influence, and THAT will be the ugliness.

>>24530692
Boomers aren't the dam keeping liberalism from flooding the world. That's retarded. They're the last generation who has benefitted from it. Younger generations in the West are all suffering because of its excesses and they're trying to find meaningful change but all they're given to vote for is geriatric boomer defenders of the neoliberal establishment.

>>24530809
>various types of post-Marxists and post-Fascists
These people are just liberals who like a counterculture aesthetic and healthcare or less immigration respectively.

>>24530818
>These people are just liberals who like a counterculture aesthetic
Both of these people are schizo totalitarians who are very transparent about how much they hate liberalism and democracy more broadly.

>>24530821
See the earlier discussion in this thread about leftists falling into line after Jan 6. All the talk about the evil, systemically racist and oppressive system vanished and was replaced with pearl clutching over "our sacred democracy" and "elected representatives". They blessed Mike Pence for defending the constitution instead of siding with the orange man. Right wingers would be no less cowardly and I think that is already obvious (or will be soon enough) with Vance and Deneen and co.

>>24530827
>All the talk about the evil, systemically racist and oppressive system vanished and was replaced with pearl clutching over "our sacred democracy" and "elected representatives".
Yeah but Trump was legitimately elected by popular vote this time around and has institutional power, while the left (especially younger leftists my age) unlike then HATE the Democrats who they see as being far too Boomer, milquetoast, and captured by corpos (and Israel).
>Right wingers would be no less cowardly
The young radical right has already gotten pissed off at Trump for backpedalling on immigration and for being too close to Israel and India. He's received the first actual opposition and pushback from his right flank on these two issues and he's simply ignored them for the most part (though he did back out of a war with Iran for now).
My thing is, if material conditions keep getting worse for the average Joe and no new cultural/political consensus is formed like in the New Deal or Reagan eras; you're going to see young people get disaffected with the political system and democracy itself entirely and radicialize as they have no reasons to buy into the system.

>>24530842
I'll believe it when I see it. The Berniebros all fell into line with Hilary and Biden and Kamala and the rightwing opposition to Trump are too close to Nazis to be electable.

You might be right about things changing with time and I think that it could once the boomers die out on both sides. But liberalism has a way of defanging radicals (see Jobbik in Hungary which literally used to have a Nazi paramilitary wing and has been transformed into a dull centre right party or Syriza in Greece for a leftist example.)

>>24510148 (OP)
Liberalism has not failed. It is the greatest, most rational philosophy ever made.
What has failed is society's ability to uphold its fundamental values and forgetting how we got to where we currently are.

Liberalism, understood as individual freedom is superior to all other forms of government and thought.
That doesn't mean you are allowed to forget the limitations of natural reality, or want to impose your freedom over others.

>>24530861
>The Berniebros all fell into line with Hilary and Biden and Kamala
The thing is the left no longer has establishment types representing them. Bernie is fucking old despite being relatively lucid while Cortez is too much of a vibes-based airhead akin to Kamala to be a popular, charismatic figure with a program normies and leftists alike can get with. All the other major leftist figures like Tlaib that could've become big figures have either been primaried by AIPAC-backed candidates for being too spicy about Israel or censored for those same reasons.
>rightwing opposition to Trump are too close to Nazis
As much as Fuentes and the groypers are lolcows, there's definitely more dignified and less retarded people opposing him; i.e Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, or Thomas Massie.
In particular, I think Massie's next election will be a huge indicator of where things stand regarding the future of the Republican party given he's the most vocal and visible rightwing opponent of Trump in the party with the strongest following among the youth. It'll be intresting dissecting the results of that election whether he wins or loses.
>liberalism has a way of defanging radicals
The thing is the times those parties were prominent and radical were far more stable and sane times (even in Greece) with less existential and systemic problems rearing their heads.; along with social media being less politically potent. Now we have a brew of just about everything for political radicalism in teh U.S and world more broadly emerging.

>>24530887
>Candace Owens
>less retarded
Anon... really?
>jews invented dinosaurs
>the earth is flat
The fact that she even gave a space to these ideas is retarded.
She is an alarmist, the only reason she is successful is a low effort populist, sensationalized rhetoric.

liberalism failed because it's a king that is anti-king
it was never going to work
no authority at all
what are you going to do
when there is an emergency

Liberalism hasn't failed. Liberalism has appeared to fail in order to appease its critics, who think they have triumphed over liberalism. This is most amusing to liberalism, so liberalism has gone along with the charade and played dead for the lulz.

The real reason liberalism failed is that it became associated with the democratic party, unions, and organized crime. There's no room for thinking with these folks. Hence, the people who can think, i.e. us, the good thinking fascists, can simply exploit the well meaning liberals and use their high speed electronic computer networks to serve the ends of fascism. It isn't just machines that can't think, liberals can't think, either! Some of us knew this for a long time.

dude, who gives a fuck if somebody is or calls you or someone else a liberal
they're fucking delusional, they're simple people who've been exploited by the state
this is about destroying the distinction between liberals and everybody else
it's about deprogramming the liberal cult
it's the self-destruct sequence for liberalism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tokJ3IDaoZ4

>>24530912
>liberalism
>unions
This is the thing. Liberalism has lost all of it's meaning. Mostly due to the social construcctionist movement. Which is LITERALLY nothing more than sophistry.
Individual freedom does not inoly the ability to assert your own reality over others.
The social constructionist movement is only concerned with definitions and their cultural weight and malleability. It claims that there is nothing natural, as once it has already been interpreted, it can't be natural, because the interpretation relies on collective preconceptions that make up a concept. It completely disregard the essence of things, or rather, it claims that it must be inaccessible to humans, that each "thing" is it's own category, only defined by itself.
However it disregards patterns and similarities, it completely gets rid of concepts as a universal. Language itself loses all of it's meaning, when taken to it's only logical conclusions.
The social constructionists attached themselves to liberalism in a parasitic manner, while still behaving like a collective. And the WORSE, most HYPOCRITICAL part of this is that they added intersectionality, which is a problem that liberalism had solved.

Their mistake is in the assertion that humans cannot tell the nature of something, claiming that once something is interpreted, it is already corrupted.

>>24530930
Worst*

I write like a fucking retard. I should kms.

>>24530904
>>less retarded
Relatively speaking. Compared to Fuentes and the groyper types she's far less retarded (also helps that she's not White for normalfags).
>the only reason she is successful is a low effort populist, sensationalized rhetoric.
Ah yes, because these types totally don't do particularly well in America.

>>24530937
>Ah yes, because these types totally don't do particularly well in America.
My bad. I only really focused on your out of context assertion about Owens.
Yeah, they do well in america.
She is still retarded lmao

>>24530942
>She is still retarded lmao
Undeniably. My worry is that whatever comes after Boomer neoliberalism is going to be worse because some dysfunctional meme ideology equivalent to Peronism will pop up and dominate, which will just ground and handicap us forever.

>>24515794
>amateur numbers
can't stop the flop, guess they need more slop!

>>24530827
anon, this thread has surpassed the attention-span loop of most of it's posters.

>>24530960
True, Peronism does sound like something that Americans would love.
That'd be fucking horrible, lmao.

I do think the fate of the United States and the fate of Liberalism are intertwined.

And America's fate, who can say? As Pope Francis liked to say, God is a God of Surprises.

>>24512768
Why should nationalism be illiberal? Liberalism requires nationalism to work. Internationalism is a morally bankrupt ideology used as a cover for imperialism and corporate interests.

>>24530989
This can only work in the US. For it is the only country with enough resources, population, and power to do this.
Even so, becoming complete isolationists would lead to their downfall.

Internationalism can work for the EU, as it transitions to the EU. Because European countries simply cannot compete on their own againat China or the US.

China knows this, btw. That's why it's already bought basically the entire world outside of America and it's closest allies.

If America didn't go to war in the middle east and kept it's focus in South America, they would literally own the world.
International relations cannot be forgotten, as they are important. However I think Trump has found a good balance.

>>24531007
>Trump has found a good balance.
How? All he's done is piss off all of our allies whether they be shitty ones like Germany and Britain or incredibly strong and reliable ones like SK and Australia while tying us further down in the Middle East at the behest of the Israelis; abandoning the Indo-Pacific and Europe in the process.

>>24531013
Because these pissed of allies can't do shit about anything.
America is too powerful and has too many in-house resources to be threatened by the annoyance of countries that offer very little to her.

Trump's interventionism is balanced because it's very low investment, is basically just threats.
Nobody can go to war with America, nobody wants to. Europe doesn't have a military, Russia fucking sucks and can't beat Ukraine, China is too focused on attaining long term resources.
Nobody wants to fight for Iran.

China's long term dominance over access to natural resources is the biggest threat to America atm. But they both depend on each other as of now. So it's a massive stalemate.
What the US lacks the most is mineral resources, that could be a problem. But those are in Africa, China and South America.

>>24531048
>Because these pissed of allies can't do shit about anything.
They can trade more with China, Latin America, each other, and re-arm and re-orient their defense industries away from America; which is what they've been doing since 2022 but has since accelerated since Trump took office again.
>countries that offer very little to her.
These countries give us buffers from hostile powers, non-American troop numbers to throw around, industry, and intel. They're our sphere of influence we've built in blood and money for nearly a century.
>Trump's interventionism is balanced because it's very low investment, is basically just threats
Yeah, but we haven't actually gained anything other than a much stronger and far more authoritarian Israel, while we've lost a lot in just 6 months.
>Nobody can go to war with America, nobody wants to
The Houthis did, and they kicked our ass despite being nigger-tier sheepshaggers with bottle rockets and AKs.
Russia meanwhile has given Trump's "peace" efforts the proverbial middle finger and has continued grinding away at us and our allies stockpiles in Ukraine, as the old Soviet war machine has shook off a lot of rust while the Western reaction remains chaotic, disorderly, and piecemeal despite the gallant and heroic defense the AFU has put up.
>China is too focused on attaining long term resources.
And they're winning by default as a result.
>Nobody wants to fight for Iran.
Nobody has to, Russia and China's wet dream is that America falls for Israel's bullshit one last time and finally crosses the rubicon into an unwinnable ground campaign/occupation in Iran that gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want in Asia and Europe given America will be tied down in the Middle East for perpetuity.
>But those are in Africa
Which Russia has with remarkable speed and success swiped from France (their military presence there now is bigger than it was during the Cold War), while China has grossly outcompeted us in places like SA, East Africa, and the Congo.
>South America
Which constantly swings wildly between the U.S and BRICS every election season, unless the U.S were to go full Operation Condor again which is unlikely (the CIA now is too retarded to mastermind something that elaborate).

>>24510888
You're putting the cart before the horse, my friend. What America needs first is leadership, not authority. Someone who will show them how to change the way they live, not issue legal mandates. An Overman so great, his following so dominating, that seizing state power becomes unnecessary. He simply provides wise leadership and those who follow prosper. We will know him by his insight.

Until they shoot him.

if everything i've read is accurate, we are witnessing the opening stages of world war three

>>24531089
Is it wrong that I've sometimes pondered if I could become such a man myself?

I guess sometimes I think about something like this, and I wait around for our Great Man to come, but he keeps not coming. I mean, I guess Trump kind of counts, but he doesn't seem great ENOUGH. I keep waiting for him to really come, our Great Man of History.

And he keeps not coming. So sometimes I think, hell, if nobody else is gonna do the job, maybe it's gonna have to be me.

Hopefully it won't be, I'm not sure I'd make a good Great Man.

But I hate the idea of sitting around doing nothing, if things need to be done.

>>24531165
>Is it wrong that I've sometimes pondered if I could become such a man myself?
No, but to make an attempt is a whole other matter.
I tried last year, and ever since I've been incredibly disillusioned, depressed, and aimless.

>>24510148 (OP)
>There are virtually no non-liberals in the West at all.

Because 'non-liberal' or 'illiberal' in the West is code for being an unrepentant scoundrel with a completely incoherent set of morals. Nobody really means a Chinese style society even though that's probably the best proven case.

The evolution out of liberalism will occur by choosing a particular subset of goals promised by liberalism to focus on while sacrificing others. This occurs in China whereby economic development and R&D are favored over individual freedom especially in regards to political representation.

The problem with Western illiberalism is that it's a rejection of everything liberal. It's not a nuanced refinement of liberalism into a kind of state-socialism, it's a mere inversion of liberalism which is the worst thing you can do because any devised system thus carries the afterimage of liberalism which can always be returned to via the same process of inversion.

The most amenable process to the West would be an illiberal economy -- highly restrained capitalism -- with a liberal political process which still allows democratic representation and the proliferation of different subcultures. This is basically what democratic socialists argue for but they're too cowardly to call it illiberal.

>>24531215
The zeitgeist, the last one that had a fervor of kind, was decades ago, "Choice is freedom". It's one underlining I notice constantly because it's abuse it rampant. The only liberalism I notice is when the red and blue parties exchange platform-generated proposals - it's only more like 'ransom' them off imo - so that it is only short bursts of liberalism the people get exposure to. The off-putting thing about it is, it still allots the US gov't to maintain capitalist status, "we GIVE you the choice" and, not "these are the choices available." Lack of sincere exposure to the republic means very few opportunities for them to get a 'taste' of the idea - this is easy to gauge by authorities since they are the ones doing the ego-stroking from afar - and less 'tasting' equals less desire. Simply, the status quo is already non-liberalism, but overall, no one knows the difference between sugar and sand as it stands purely absolute - it's more like the ingredients mix label where most only notice the top three 'major' ones eating the stuff. Finally, the gov't does this today as 'just in case' might arise instead of generating a new model from scratch, and, also because a complete plan is easy to maintenance. Just something to think about.

>>24530907
It also is a system that has no accountability

>>24510148 (OP)
>When faced with genuinely illiberal alternatives they cower in fear and defend the values of their inherently liberal societies in the midst of them whining about it.
Yeah, but when those illiberal alternatives show up, they won't do shit. They'll wait for someone else to do something, and when nobody does, they'll go about their business as if nothing had happened. They may wag their fingers, but there will be no armed rebellion, at least not anything of note.

>>24531165
You may hate this but Trump's grandeur is too overwhelming for most to emulate.

Imagine being a billionaire since your 20s and claiming to never masterbate because you get to fuck the hottest models every night on schedule.
Then after enjoying all the luxuries of modern society til your 70's you decide to run for president.
Fucking Kissinger already called Trump one of these historic figures that comes once every 200 years.

Unless you've already started a legend you aren't a great man. We're the fucking proles.

>>24533292
Trump is a Jewish mafia conman through and through. If he is this eras Great Man, then that just goes to show how absolutely corrupt and decayed our disgusting paradigm is.

>>24531215
This is because the West is a patchwork, especially among would-be illiberals, and I'm not sure it's getting any better.

The libertarians, the Catholics, the fascists, they all want different things. It's mostly their opposition to the Left that unites them, if the Left is truly put in the ground for good they'll fight amongst themselves to advance their unique visions of an illiberal world.

>>24519642
problem is it won't end up that way in real life, we'll instead get men who larp as men with piety and honor, while actually being self-serving degenerate fucks who rob the people.