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https://archive.ph/Mwn1I
>For the first meeting of his book club for men, Yahdon Israel, a 35-year-old senior editor at Simon & Schuster, asked the participants to bring a favorite work of fiction. Not everyone completed the assignment.
>One man brought “Watchmen,” a graphic novel. Valid, technically.
>Another scoured his home bookshelf and realized he did not own a single novel or short story collection. So he showed up to the meeting with a nonfiction book about emotional intelligence. (Mr. Israel posted a photo of the seven millenial-ish men in the group, each holding his selection, to his Instagram account.)
>Mr. Israel, who has hosted another book club for nearly a decade, started this group last December in an effort to inspire heterosexual men to read more fiction. He solicited members over social media. For the second meeting, he assigned a story collection by Jamel Brinkley, “A Lucky Man,” which examines contemporary masculinity. For two hours, the men discussed the book, and the theme.
>The next day, Mr. Israel had a panic attack. Two days later, he said, he was diagnosed with depression.
>He has spent the months since grappling with painful realizations that came out of the discussion, about how toxic masculinity has harmed his own marriage, especially the idea that real men do not share their feelings. It was an epiphany out of James Joyce, unlocked, he said, by that conversation in the book club.
>Indeed, while Mr. Israel might have convened the group to help other men read more fiction, he has since realized that there’s an even deeper reason.
>“I’m doing this because I need it,” he said in an interview.
Novels are for plebians. Real patricians read Poetry, philosophy, and history.
When I go into a bookstore I only look at the history, poetry/drama and philosophy sections.
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>So do lots of men — at least according to a robust debate unfolding in opinion pages and news articles, on social media platforms and inside the publishing world. By turns a maligned or suspicious figure in decades past — in the case of the “Infinite Jest” lover, for instance — or a fetishized one — consider the enormously popular “Hot Dudes Reading” Instagram — the figure of the literary male reader is now disappearing, some say, and his disappearance is a matter of grave concern.
>These articles, which focus explicitly or implicitly on straight men, connect the fact that these men are reading fewer novels to a variety of social maladies, up to and including deleterious effects on American democracy itself. If more men were reading like Mr. Israel, the thinking goes, the country would be a healthier place: more sensitive, more self-aware, less destructive. As more American men fill their hours with the crude talk shows of the “manosphere,” online gambling and addictive multiplayer games, the humble novel — consumed alone, requiring thought and patience — can look like a panacea.
>It’s a lot of pressure to put on the reading man, who for many people remains a fittingly prosaic sight, unworthy of deeper thought or further comment. Perhaps he is passing the time on a commute, or taking a break from the stresses of the day. Little does he know, he’s been drafted into a new front in the culture war over the future of men.
>On a recent afternoon in June, Jack Kyono, an assistant manager at McNally Jackson, the stalwart New York book chain, walked the floor of the store’s SoHo location. Mr. Kyono was quick to point out that not all men read in the same way. International tourists are buying different books from older American men, who are buying different books from young professionals. But he broadly agreed with the idea that when it came to reading fiction, straight men were followers, not leaders. They might read Sally Rooney or Ocean Vuong, he said, but only after an audience of straight women and queer people had made them cultural touchstones.
>Earlier on the phone, he told me he had noticed a gender divide among the stacks: When groups of women wandered into the store, they frequently browsed together, pointing out books they had read and making suggestions for their friends — an act that booksellers call “the handsell.”
>Meanwhile, when men came into the bookstore with other men, they typically split up and dispersed to far corners of the store.
>“It’s solo browsing time,” he said.
>Navigating the aisles, Mr. Kyono, 27, led us to a cubicle-size display near the back dedicated to science fiction and fantasy, where the shelves were heavy with multipart series with names like “Iron Gold” and “Light Bringer.” Nearby, an alcove of the American fiction section from F through K contained many of the most famous male writers of what Mr. Kyono called the “American high school reading curriculum”: Faulkner, Hemingway, Heller, Kerouac.
>“This is a hot corner for men,” he noted.
>So, too, was a nook featuring literature in translation. Here, said Mr. Kyono, another kind of male reader snaps up long, ambitious novels from Czech, Romanian and Austrian writers — someone who may fit into the much-debated trope of the “high brodernist,” male readers and critics who prize esoteric, challenging texts in translation.
>Inside the store, the customers were overwhelmingly women. But there were a few men. Some, like Daniel Schreiner, 38, were fans of the fantasy star Brandon Sanderson. He said he thought men read less fiction than women because “we’re less literate than they are.” Another man, Louis Nunez, 41, said he did not read fiction, and typically picked out nonfiction books related to spirituality.
>“But spirituality is like fiction to some people,” he said.
>There was at least one man in the store who planned to buy a work of fiction: Bob Ryan, a college literature professor, holding a novel about a Japanese architect. Mr. Ryan, 37, said he had trouble getting many of the young men in his courses interested in the material, because they did not see the benefit of novels. “They’re more interested in the instrumental,” he said.
>Eventually, Mr. Kyono took me to the front to look at an attractive “customer favorites” display. Here, pastel and vivid colors dominated the covers of books by romance and “romantasy” stalwarts like Carley Fortune and Sarah J. Maas, the author of the popular “A Court of Thorns and Roses” series.
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>Beyond the bookstore, much of the architecture of book discovery is informally targeted at women. Celebrity book clubs are mostly led by female celebrities and increasingly court women of all ages, from those who are fans of Oprah Winfrey and Reese Witherspoon to those who are more interested in the tastes of Dua Lipa and Kaia Gerber. (Former President Barack Obama, the obvious straight male exception, releases a single list of his favorite books every year.) #BookTok, the vast community on TikTok that has become a best-seller machine, is largely populated by women recommending books by other women, like Colleen Hoover’s “It Ends With Us.”
>There are counterexamples that prove the rule. C.J. Box, the author of a long-running series about a Wyoming game warden who solves murders, has expanded his audience to include younger men by appearing on a series of podcasts about hunting, fishing and other outdoors subjects.
>But literary novelists — the kind who populate prestigious lists and publish the “big” books of the year — have not seemed to crack the code with straight guys, at least on social media.
>One common argument focuses on supply: that men are not reading fiction because the subject matter of contemporary fiction does not speak to men. Jordan Castro, a novelist whose books inhabit the minds of frustrated men, wrote in an email that “the general tone and etiquette of the literary world is certainly hostile to masculine expression.” Conduit Books, a new indie press that debuted this year, will focus on books by male authors, and will center “overlooked” themes of “fatherhood, masculinity, working-class male experience, sex and relationships, and negotiating the 21st-century as a man.”
>These arguments hark back to a midcentury culture of fiction writing dominated by men writing about masculine subjects and the male experience. But it was not always thus. In the 19th century, the most popular novels were written by women for a female audience. Their output was considered “paltry entertainment,” according to Dan Sinykin, a professor of English at Emory University and the author of “Big Fiction: How Conglomeration Changed the Publishing Industry and American Literature.”
>>24517806Real patricians don't read, they hire beautiful boys to read to them.
>>24517796 (OP)It's so fucking funny how the idea that they've lost men to the Right is literally giving them mental breakdowns. Deep down they know they're fucked, long-term, but what they don't know is how to fix it.
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>Many of these titles were so-called sentimental novels, whose virtuous heroines illustrated proper moral conduct. In 1855, Nathaniel Hawthorne described American novelists to his publisher as “a damned mob of scribbling women, and I should have no chance of success while the public taste is occupied with their trash.”
>A century later, the story had changed, and publishing had become a boys club with cultural cachet, according to Mr. Sinykin. Literary form was prized above social instruction.
>Starting in the 1980s, a new generation of women came to dominate the publishing industry. The “feminization” of the industry, as Mr. Sinykin called it, resulted in a business that “assumes its primary audience is white women between 30 and 65” and publishes books to suit their tastes.
>In one sense, then, for men to read more fiction as the world of the novel exists today would not just require more stereotypically masculine subject matter. It might be a matter of men approaching their reading lives a little more like women do — getting recommendations online from celebrities and influencers, browsing together, forming book clubs.
>One thing that may help: brick-and-mortar bookstores giving traditionally male-focused genres the romantasy treatment, said Shannon DeVito, the senior director of books at Barnes & Noble. According to Ms. DeVito, over the past six months, the chain has had growing sales from contemporary science fiction and fantasy authors like Matt Dinniman and James Islington.
>“It’s not a concerted effort to get men to read more,” said Ms. DeVito. “It’s just great books that appeal to that audience.”
>Book culture is not a monolith. According to BookScan, some 782.7 million books were sold in 2024, and the rapid growth of the self-published book market means that there is fiction to suit almost every taste. In this context, what Mr. Sinykin called the “worst version” of the critique of contemporary fiction — that liberal politics have destroyed the space for male readers — seems like a huge oversimplification. And many people who care about the future of the male fiction reader are keen to avoid it.
>Mr. Israel deliberately did not include the words “man” or “men” in the name of his book club. He called it “The Fiction Revival,” to underline the idea that there was a kind of reading experience for men that needed to be resuscitated.
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>Max Lawton, a translator who frequently works on long European novels, scoffed at the “corny idea of the male reader” who is interested only in stereotypically masculine subjects and austere prose.
>“Being a reader is not a two-party system — you can read whatever you want,” he said.
>Even Mr. Castro, the novelist, rejected the idea of a countermovement in the name of masculine identity. “Resentment, performing or embodying a self-consciously ‘masculine’ identity at the expense of literary value, is cringe,” he wrote in an email. “‘Identity’ is not a literary value.”
>One real challenge at hand is a frenzied attention economy competing for everyone’s time, not just men’s. To present the sorry state of the male reader as having solely to do with the gendered quality of contemporary fiction misses a screen-based culture that presents nearly unlimited forms of entertainment.
>“Our competition isn’t other publishers,” said Sean Manning, the publisher of Simon & Schuster. “It’s social media, gaming, streaming. All these other things that are vying for people’s time, attention and financial resources.”
>Asked whether the publishing industry needed straight men to read more fiction as a purely economic matter, Mr. Manning focused instead on the social benefits of reading.
>“It’s a problem if anyone isn’t taking advantage of an incredible artistic medium,” he said. “It’s hurtful not to be well-rounded.”
>In an effort to get more people — yes, among them, men — to pick up his books, Mr. Manning is trying to make his own back catalog speak more to the culture at large. He has commissioned Taylor Sheridan, the creator of such man-approved shows and movies as “Yellowstone” and “Sicario,” to write the introduction to a new edition of Larry McMurtry’s classic western, “Lonesome Dove.” (Another guy-friendly introduction to an old title: the Metallica drummer Lars Ulrich on Hunter S. Thompson’s “Screwjack.”)
>Mr. Manning might be happy to reach a book club like the one Andy Spackman, 46, started in the Lawrence, Kan., area three years ago. A former construction worker married to the best-selling memoirist Sarah Smarsh, Mr. Spackman said he felt that he did not have anyone to talk to about books, and that a book club might be a good way to bond with other men.
>“I’m always seeing women out doing things and being friendlier toward each other than men are,” he said.
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>Since convening the group, the men have read Cormac McCarthy’s “Blood Meridian,” Donna Tartt’s “The Secret History” and James McBride’s “The Good Lord Bird,” among others. Dissecting and reassembling the ideas in these books, Mr. Spackman said, has led to a level of depth and intimacy with other men that he never got from inviting friends over to play video games, or from hanging out at the bar.
>That does not mean, however, that there is no role for that time-tested male social lubricant, and subject of much great writing by men.
>“Full disclosure,” Mr. Spackman said. “There is alcohol at the book club.”
>he reads novels
poesia semper philosophiaque mihi
>>24517833>Deep down they know they're fucked, long-term, but what they don't know is how to fix it.its pretty damn funny. I say this as someone that used to be a leftist. i still believe a lot of left stuff but I dont bother with politics or philosophy anymore since its a massive waste of time.
But watching other leftists squirm like his makes me happy for some reason. Like they know they're retarded now but cant do anything about it.
>>24517796 (OP)>inspire heterosexual men to read more fiction. He solicited members over social media. For the second meeting, he assigned a story collection by Jamel Brinkley, “A Lucky Man,” which examines contemporary masculinityLet me quest yahdon is a faggot?
>>24517913>questOdd typo obviously I meant guess
>>24517842>“Full disclosure,” Mr. Spackman said. “There is alcohol at the book club.”
>>24517796 (OP)Women take over the industry and destroyed it. Now all they publish is woman-tier slop
>>24517796 (OP)Maybe because people with names like “ Yahdon Israel” are the ones publishing books now
>>24517991>t. was never offered a beer
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>>24517796 (OP)>Mr. IsraelYou guys aren't really believing this shit right?
>>24517820>multipart seriesI’ll be honest. I read quite a bit but I generally avoid anything that’s part of a series. I like to have an ending when I get to the last page. If the “series” isn’t a set of individual stories that stand on their own I have no interest in it.
I mean I love LOTR but if I had read Fellowship as it released and received no proper ending I’d have probably avoided TT and ROTK
>>24517827Let me ask, does this faggot have a stake in that “A Lucky Man” book? Cause it feels like this was an elaborate ad for that trash.
>>24517816>But he broadly agreed with the idea that when it came to reading fiction, straight men were followers, not leaders. They might read Sally Rooney or Ocean Vuong, he said, but only after an audience of straight women and queer people had made them cultural touchstones.This is just wildly divorced from reality.
>>24518177LOTR is very good, to be fair, and if you were around when it was coming out Tolkien would already have established a somewhat-good reputation with The Hobbit. So you wouldn't be going into the series on blind trust, which some of these newer writers ask you to do.
>>24518186>Sally Rooney or Ocean Vuongnot even memeworthy enough to milk on a biannual basis
>>24517836It’s amazing that it’s always presented as if books being a female thing is good. When it’s dominated by men it’s bad, coercive and evil. And then back to female hands and we’re now in a natural and good state we should hesitate to question.
It’s like those diversity awards for 70% female boards or staff. The entire language around social issues can only see men as a problem or deficient or wrong somehow. Women dominate something and it’s because they’re just that awesome. Men dominate something and it’s a problem that needs more women and female input.
I don’t even think people realize they’re swimming in these default assumptions. Point it out on a normie site and the calls of “incel” or “something something tate manosphere jordan peterson” start up.
>>24518218same type who cried that math and logic were western constructs by white men therefore racist and misogynist. not even meming. this is how they think. i dont blame english majors though considering how bad they are at math. and so poetry limped with uneven wings
>>24518005This. Men do not read recently published works of fiction because nothing new is being made or marketed for men which appeals to our interests. The polls taken probably only count recent purchases, and only dumb pussies with too much time on their hands would voluntarily participate (if the sample is not taken from online store data). Beyond that, most men who read likewise do not PURCHASE books like women do, they pirate them or find public domain works published a hundred years ago and re-uploaded to host sites like Gutenberg. There is still - and likely always will be - a massive proportion of men who read fiction, but as in many aspects of the modern west, the actual actions and interests of men are strangely invisible to anyone who isn’t one because progressive ideologues refuse to acknowledge our perspective in anything.
Being detached from reality - or moreover, having a malicious and subversive ulterior motive - makes the proposition of understanding men to be utterly repellant. This is why these fucking retarded articles reappear every fiscal quarter: the media and entertainment industry wants the working class man to buy products, yet they’re frustrated that they either don’t remember how to market to us, or don’t WANT to market to us PROPERLY because they hate the things we’re drawn to and want us to change to accommodate the slop they produce. They’re more concerned with how they perceive and want us to be, rather than adhering to what the reality is. In general principle, men will never be interested in narratively meandering, accusatorial, belittling, and narcissistically didactic books that hate the nature of men, nor will they ever be drawn to stories made to appeal to hopelessly sheltered, sex-deprived women.
We want narrative progress, obstacles to face and overcome, villains that are truly evil in their moral framework, heroes and just cause empires - not just rebels, genuine brotherhood, romance that exemplifies how a man protects and is valued by the women he loves, intriguing and poignant ideas that wrestle with both timeless and contemporary topics in a story format, true growth of character, and above all - vicarious escape from the mundane world of false abstractions in this modern life which separates us from our true purpose and nature as fighters and seekers of truth.
>>24518186This writer either missed or chose to completely ignore the past 5-6 DECADES of heavily male readership in fiction. Airport magazine racks were huge back in the day. Amazon got popular on men ordering sci-fi and finance books. But this article is just another (((attempt))) to rewrite history by changing the reader’s perception of the past. Younger people have no concept of the MM paperback era, only a book-tok dominated by feminist hypocrites and whores.
Just publish novels about cowboys shooting Mexicans and Mexicans fishing and fish swimming.
>>24518322And for the women: a bookish self-righteous retard getting FUCKED by weirdly obsessed men and anthropomorphic monstrosities.
Calm down brothers, I’m sorry Barnes and Noble doesn’t stock Star Wars Ayn Rand Comic books anymore, but no reason to be so angry
>>24517839Max Lawton is the fag that keeps getting posted on here, right? That 'two party system' analogy really shows how little he knows about both books and politics.
>>24518186>men read frauds but only when women and gays tell them about the most widely published frauds imaginable lol
>>24517796 (OP)>>Mr. Israel, who has hosted another book club for nearly a decade, started this group last December in an effort to inspire heterosexual men to read more fiction. He solicited members over social media. For the second meeting, he assigned a story collection by Jamel Brinkley, “A Lucky Man,” which examines contemporary masculinity. For two hours, the men discussed the book, and the theme.>>The next day, Mr. Israel had a panic attack. Two days later, he said, he was diagnosed with depression.Somehow I don't think this is the right guy to find books that will interest normal straight men.
Am I the only one who thinks this?
This is more like the guy who will find books for ultra liberal men who get pegged by their girlfriends
>why arent men reading books about toxic masculinity and women ridining the cock carousal
I keep telling you guys, men are always reading, they just don't post about it on social media constantly like performative women
pride
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>only publish LGBTQ shit and rape porn
>men don't want to read it
>>24518497educate yourself
>>24517827>In the 19th century, the most popular novels were written by women for a female audience. Their output was considered “paltry entertainment,”I guess some things haven't changed.
>>24518186>They might read Sally Rooney or Ocean Vuongmoids don't ever read that shit
>queer peopleAren't real
>cultural touchstonesFucking kek
>>24517806>official history>not for plebiansSpoke. Like true plebean
>>24517816>If more men were reading like Mr. Israel, the thinking goes, the country would be a healthier place: more sensitive, more self-aware, less destructive.Hahaha. That's fucking retarded. That only works if men read all those gay self help books written by women and dont immediatly think after a single page, this is all bullshit.
Reading good books that are 100 years old or more will truly unlock one's potential for toxic masculinity. It'll be a glimpse into a better world where women werent allowed to have political opinions at all, or speak in public.
>As more American men fill their hours with the crude talk shows of the “manosphere,” online gambling and addictive multiplayer gamesAh, so this is what the article is truly about. Maybe if you want more men to read you shouldnt discriminate against male writers and effectively kick them out of the literary scene. When you turn literature into a feminist echo chamber, men will naturally seek out a place where they can make fun of fat girls without getting permabanned.
>>24517839>“‘Identity’ is not a literary value.”Unless you're a POC, LGBTQ, jewish, or a marginalized voice. Then it's the ultimate literary value. But if you're white? "Cringe."
>“It’s a problem if anyone isn’t taking advantage of an incredible artistic medium,” he said. “It’s hurtful not to be well-rounded.”Just read more anti-white, gay shit, goy! You're not an X-a-phobe, are you?
The lack of self awareness is comical.
>>24517820>Mr. Kyono called the “American high school reading curriculum”: Faulkner, Hemingway, Heller, Kerouac.What is this nip cocksucker on about? Hemingway is the only one of them I read in high school.
>>24518660Yeah, what fucking high school assigns Faulkner? That's way above any high school curriculum. Kids struggle to grasp fucking Frankenstein, and you're going to throw Absalom, Absalom! or Sound and the Fury at them?
Plus notice the snark here. Psshaw, men only read high school assignments like FaUlKnEr and then pairs him with fantasy slopper Sanderson. This article mentions Sally Rooney and Ocean Vuong, but makes no similar snide remark about the quality of their infantile books.
>>24517796 (OP)>a 35-year-old senior editorim done with this thread
>>24517839Impressive, very nice. Let's see Michel Houllebecq's take.
lol the nyt just dropped another one
>https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/03/arts/straight-white-male-novelists.html
>>24517869>he reads islamic worksso close yet so far
>>24518866>Humming underneath the disputation is a less tangible but more significant question. Let us say the perspective of the straight white man is being dampened in the world of literary fiction. Should we care?kek
>>24517816holy shit blockhead joe actually got a job at NYT
Sam Hyde BTFO
>>24518700>>24518660It's about thirty to forty years out of date, but I doubt that guy is some 70 year old simply out of touch with things. You're forced to read Amy Tan and Sandra Cisneros and Paulo Coelho, the bare minimum of Shakespeare and Greek tragedy/myth, and the "true" Highschoolcurriculum-core: To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye, Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies.
>>24518931They can't stop! It's incredible. Everything like this that they say makes it worse for them and makes their annihilation that much more inevitable. You'd think, purely for self-preservation, that they'd learn to keep their mouths shut and throw white men a bone every now and then. But they can't. They're incapable of it. It's amazing.
>>24518893Guenon (PBUH) did not concentrate on one slice. He looked at the whole pie, from the top, from the bottom, from the sides, from the past, from the future all in the same one moment. Let this rest in your mind.
So articles like these are just self-soothing sessions for the lefties in control, right, who can clearly sense that something is wrong with the direction they have taken the industry, but aren't courageous enough to revise their views in light of the obvious? It's such a lefty thing to drive a ship into an iceberg then just tell yourself that nah, you didn't sink the ship, you're just deep cleaning the insides of the ship with salty sea water.
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The visual description of seven semi-confused males earnestly holding up books they selected incorrectly to try and fulfill the request of their club leader is so cute oh my gosh it made my eyes water… so sweet and stupid trying their best to understand what fiction is and how it contextualises and fills out their lives with beauty… the naïveté..
>>24518971It's not just about the publishing industry. These articles, and the debate over men reading, are basically a proxy discussion over the fact that men, especially white men, have basically completely rejected the entirety of the social liberalism project. Are on the verge of completely rejecting left-liberalism and progressivism as a whole. The smarter leftists, who are usually also the richer leftists, realize that this could be a big problem for them in the medium and long-term, so they're trying to figure out what to do about it to head it off.
>>24518950>makes their annihilation that much more inevitablemeh, this sounds like fantasy
>>24518984At the very least, men are going to create direct competition for the big New York publishers. Think of the rise of something like Passage Press. It's fueled directly by male dissatisfaction with current output from the big publishers. Their inability to appeal to men is taking money directly out of their pockets, and could lead to their ultimate demise. They're very smart to be bothered by men not reading their books.
>>24518991They will never care about something like that.
The comics industry got butchered by the same demographic and they never reverted. Look at how many AAA games have come out that lost tens of hundreds of millions of dollars and none of the companies fix the problems.
It's about a moral crusade, not money.
>>24518978I see what you mean but I think you're being overly dramatic. Literature has always been written by and read by a primarily middle to upper middle class demographic and the men who are rejecting the lefty paradigm are predominantly lower class since they're obviously the ones who are the most disadvantaged by the globalist system. So it's less that men are leaving en masse and that's causing issues - women buying pulp en masse was always what kept the industry financially afloat - and more that the way literature works as a social sphere in the western world is practically designed to be as contraselected as humanly possible, not to mention the already questionable creative powers of the current day western bourgeoisie.
The root issue might just be the complete disappearance of a notion of shared culture without which literature unavoidably descends into narcissistic navel-gazing and virtue signaling in pursuit of social clout.
>>24519007The thing is, moral crusades are a game two can play.
>>24519010Sure, but the only ones that play them against progressives are Islamists.
>>24519008>>24518978But all this aside, yeah, the gatekeeping of the heterosexual white (so non-jewish) male author has been nothing short of a lobotomy for the industry, and also it's incredibly counterproductive to make literature as unappealing for the heterosexual white male audience as possible since they have always been the bread and butter of any functioning western literary culture. You can't build a real literary culture on the backs of women, whiny brown people, and bougie jews who have never been able to escape being second or third rate and only care about literature insofar that it gives them a platform to seethe against goys and jerk each other off.
>>24519018The Overton Window has shifted a lot, MAGA is basically just 90's liberalism.
>>24519041yup, liberalism peaked
>>24519015in america muslims are all libs, see mamdani.
that said, dems were not expecting hispanics to break for trump, but they should have seen it coming since how many latin american countries have legal abortion and gay marriage? not to mention hardcore protestantism is sweeping latin culture, the strongest anti-catholic shit i've heard irl came from latinas, so if they were expecting latinx immigration was going to pump a big bloc of pelosi style libcaths, they thought wrong.
>>24519058The only Muslim-majority city in America removed faggot flags almost as soon as they got total control of the local government.
Look up the plebbit threads about it if you wanna see libs seething while at the same time running defense for the people that did it.
>>24519085Even after all this time, the muslim-lefty alliance still makes my head spin on a logical level. Like I don't envy the historians of the future when they will have to make sense how such an alliance even managed to happen between two ideologies which could not be farther from each other nominally.
>>24518991Passage Press gives me very bad vibes. And the founders a Jew lol
Real Literature is beyond market incentives so the idea that white males are going to uprise and take the Woke narcissists out if business seems delusional (why doesn’t an anon here start a publishing house? For some reason it just seems stupid and impossible; the crisis in literature is actually much deeper than Wokeism or anti-white male; it goes back to Modernism itself)
“Literature” as its now (and has often) been practiced is merely group therapy and is of course unsustainable; there’s nothing behind it so it will die, but I think this anon
>>24518978 has said it well, this is political. The political project of liberalism is over, dead not by radical Islam but by suicide
>>24519097There's as much alliance between lefties and muslims as there is between neocons and jews. Leftists simp for muslims, whereas the latter either despises them or uses them as useful idiots.
>>24519152You think so? Muslims are incredibly valuable as an easily controllable lumpenproletariat for the lefty elite. The synergy between the elites and the lumpens against the right is what anarcho-tyranny as a style of government is all about.
>>24519171They aren't easily controllable, or at least not by western lefties.
>>24517796 (OP)They're just in their library, dude.
>>24519097I'm sorry. Not reading up, but what's the problem? Lefty's against the Gaza genocide? Or the neoliberal deals with the Saudi's? the NATO/socdem of the EU importing immigrants to break the social safety net? Liberals care about "free market" capitalism while lefties care about fairness and freedom for all. It's not that deep.
>>24518971>but aren't courageous enough You have to understand, they genuinely believe tanking the industry (every industry) with no survivors is the courageous thing to do.
>>24519221No. It's not that. They're not so noble that they're willing to crash their own companies into the ground. The truth is USAID and Blackrock have DEI investments in arts and entertainment. So long as there are enough niggers and faggots and slay queens putting nazis in their place, the government gives them a big fat paycheck. So you see something like Star Wars crash and burn and you think, holy shit, Disney must be deep in the red after pissing all that money away. But no. The truth is they made all their money from the backend. They dont need to sell tickets, or books, or albums, or subscriptions, or anything. The government has "thank you for being gay" money that they give out to everyone who roots for "representation" and its enough to keep these companies going, even after they lose all their fans, or fail to make any fans.
>>24518866paywall. post the article
>>24518308>ordering sci-fiApparently genre doesn’t count, only “literary fiction.” And older literary fiction doesn’t count, only newly published works. Primarily those by POC, LGBTQIA+, and womyn authors!
>Wait where did the straight men go?
>>24519270I definitely remember voting for such govt. spendi--oh, wait.
I sure do love this supposed democracy.
>>24518005Bingo. Publishing and entertainment have made all these concessions to women because they want their money and so nothing appealing to men gets published or promoted. They were too busy trying to mindfuck men into being weak doormats to actually try to entertain us. Instead of learning their lesson and holding themselves accountable they're complaining that it's our fault, which is what jews and women always do.
>>24519364before the 2010s things used to be more equal, there were things for men, entertainment for men, fuck they even made an awful tv channel called spike tv aimed at men. but then something happened, its like they decided they would no longer make things for men, especially white men. that they would try to market everything to women.
and you can see how flawed that way of thinking is, because movies, video games, tv, books, music, are all irrelevant or dying.
then they turn around and get mad that men listen to some guy like joe rogan, whose show is about men things like mma, comedy, and drugs.
>>24519364Dungeon Crawler Carl is got published. As well as male oriented stories like Solo Leveling and other cultivation and litrpgs.
>>24519377a lot of guys like Joe Rogan and other youtubers are emphasizing reading a lot now. But they just talk about the classics, which makes male readers unable to read contemporary novels for them.
So a contemporary male novel has to be some depressed alcoholic struggling with work and trying to find meaning in life.
Why not just read a classic at that point?
>>24519352The source is Trump's cabinet, leaked emails from movie studios and video game studios, and /pol/. Just look up news about USAID, someone from Trump's cabinet, I dont know their name, made a video listing just some of the ridiculous expenditures in the name of representation. The US government spent millions of dollars so theater companies in Ireland and Argentina can put on operas about being gay and black. They even found out news companies were being kept afloat on fake subscriptions from USAID. Nobody reads their fucking news, but the US government pays for hundreds of thousands of subscriptions. Look up where DEI comes from. It's not an ideology. It's a fucking ponzi scheme.
Just today, people are seething about US money being taken away from medical programs and food programs, but what they're really seething about is that they're losing their LGBTQ funny money.
So if you're a straight white male, and maybe, God forbid, a Christian too, how are you supposed to get people to read your stuff any more?
>>24519424easy, stop writing for MEN. Men don't read. Women will read White, male, christian, writers, but MEN will NEVER read your shit.
Go ahead and write a classic coming of age storyline featuring Knights riding velociraptors waging a war against Elves riding Lions and the MC is some batshit insane conqueror that fucks the princess of the Elves and destroys their cities like Conan.
I bet you NO MAN will even touch the book. They'll just shit on you and tell you you're a faggot child that wrote some stupid shit a child thoguht of. Then bitch and complain why there aren't any male MCs that rape, pillage, conquer, and ride dinosaurs
>>24518308Yeah, this is just one of those Ministry of Truth things. These types of people don't really believe in concrete reality, they believe in narratives. Narrative says women like books NOW, so women must have ALWAYS been the primary driver of books.
I do think masculine engagement in literature is at an all-time low, but it's still a very, very recent development. Most American men were avid readers up until (In my estimation.) around 2014 or so. I won't point any fingers because it's a complicated story, but I think this modern culture war bullshit really escalated right around then. That's around the time when men started to feel heavily ostracized within academia, university, and pretty much any purely intellectual pursuit to make room for women. Now universities are mostly women, and yet the ostracization continues.
>TL;DRI think it's fair to say that women and homosexuals rule the industry right now, but I don't think it's fair to say it's normal. It's definitely not a good thing; We must have all realized that fiction is getting shittier by now.
>>24519085yeah i know about that, but i live in an american city that's like 30% muslim, and they're like catholics, mildly socially conservative but always vote for the mainstream dnc candidate. on paper catholics are "trad" and "based" but tell me how trad and based pelosi and biden are? or how about those two muslim chicks in the squad? you think they are "against progressives"? they are literally the most progressive people in congress.
>>24519403Pure nonsense, but I respect your opinion. My biggest issue with small government types like you, anon, is you guys use waste and fraud as a scapegoat to attack government services in general, when waste and fraud usually only make up a miniscule amount.
>Just today, people are seething about US money being taken away from medical programs and food programs, but what they're really seething about is that they're losing their LGBTQ funny money.And what about people who really do care about medical and food programs? Let me guess, fuck them too?
Look, I agree the government shouldn't be funding radical social movements, but general welfare programs, funding for the arts, benefits, infrastructure, helping people, those are all good things, and we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If I misrepresented your position I apologize.
>>24519452they're just adding a work requirement that able bodied people work or volunteer 20 hours a week for benefits. as usual, you let the fake news make you hysterical over nothing.
>>24519452>https://x.com/WallStreetApes/status/1940647280492888354
>>24519430Not sure if you're right seeing as how Mangas and Manhwas with those types of plots are very popular with men.
>>24519481Fucking yikes.
I waited 120 seconds to make this post.
>>24519500>unable to refute any of the pointsi accept your concession
>>24519463Damn, looks like I'm finally gonna have to get a job again.
>>24519463>>24519481The fact of the matter is it will cut medical and food assistance coverage, just to those you think don't deserve to benefit from those programs. Which, again, I respect as a position, after all that money is coming from other taxpaying citizens, so if those people require some conditions in order to be eligible, I get it. Some people won't fulfill those conditions and thus will be left with no Medicaid or SNAP, and I'm not talking about non-citizens. If you're fine with that, then okay, but let's not pretend many people's lives won't be severely negatively affected by this.
>>24519494Those are a very small subset of men under 25. Does it make money? Sure, but it's nowhere near the books of literary fiction supposedly men read. The Devils is supposed to fill this role, but barely any man bought and read it
>>24519516I wouldn't say it's very small at all. Those things sell millions of copies and their anime adaptations are extremely popular.
>>24519452>Pure nonsense. It's a fact.
>Let me guess, fuck them too?I'm a second class citizen in my own fucking country. I will NEVER be able to afford a house because citizens and government officials alike banded together and said "fuck you, Anon." I don't care what happens to anyone else anymore.
Do you guys follow Mark Twain's 18 rules?
>1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere.
>2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it.
>3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others.
>4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there.
>5. The require that when the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject at hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say.
>6. They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description.
>7. They require that when a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven- dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a negro minstrel in the end of it.
>8. They require that crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader as "the craft of the woodsman, the delicate art of the forest," by either the author or the people in the tale.
>9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable.
>10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones.
>11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency.
>12. Say what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it.
>13. Use the right word, not its second cousin.
>14. Eschew surplusage.
>15. Not omit necessary details.
>16. Avoid slovenliness of form.
>17. Use good grammar.
>18. Employ a simple and straightforward style.
>>24519528What does rule 8 mean?
>>24519528>the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others.what does that even mean?
>>24519521>It's a fact.>The US government spent millions of dollars so theater companies in Ireland and Argentina can put on operas about being gay and black. They even found out news companies were being kept afloat on fake subscriptions from USAID. Nobody reads their fucking news, but the US government pays for hundreds of thousands of subscriptions.Not true.
https://www.npr.org/2025/02/07/nx-s1-5290282/politico-subscriptions-usaid-x-musk-trump
https://www.factcheck.org/2025/02/sorting-out-the-facts-on-waste-and-abuse-at-usaid/
>>24519533The characters should all be unique and contribute to the story
>>24519521Yeah, this is an entirely understandable attitude for young men. They've basically been shat on for 30, 40, maybe even 50 years now by this country. Especially young white men. I can't blame them for joining ICE and becoming Trump's Pretorian Guard/Waffen-SS, if I were a decade younger the idea of it might appeal to me, too.
>>24519530I think, and I THINK, he's talking about taking wayy too much artistic liberties with the stuff you're writing about.
>>24519521dude have you tried buying a house somewhere besides los angeles and brooklyn? all the people living in levittowns in the 1960s had like a two hour commute to nyc, but that's a sacrifice boomers made
>>24519521>I'm a second class citizen in my own fucking country. I will NEVER be able to afford a house because citizens and government officials alike banded together and said "fuck you, Anon."That isn't right, and I do feel bad about that for you.
>I don't care what happens to anyone else anymore.And now we get to the core of your beliefs.
>>24519535>The State Department committed to provide $70,844 in September 2022 to an Irish organization called Ceiliuradh, which is part of the Irish South Wind Blows production company. The money wasn’t for a “musical,” but rather a musical event.Oh so it is true. You know what a "musical event" is called? A fucking musical. But you think you can play semantics and midwits will be too stupid to call you out on it. Go fuck yourself and your "fiery but mostly peaceful" bullshit.
>>24519548A daring synthesis
>>24519528Nobody reads Mark Twain anymore. That should tell you something about the quality of his advice.
>>24519548It's 70k, anon, and it was an event at the US Embassy streamed online.
>That company’s musical component, called Other Voices, put together a program called “Other Voices: Dignity – Towards a More Equitable Future” for the U.S. Embassy in Dublin on Sept. 15, 2022.>The announcement for the event said it “will showcase the very best of American and Irish talent with a diverse programme which aims to fulfil the U.S. Embassy Dublin’s mission to promote diversity, inclusion, and equality.”>The event was streamed live on YouTube and featured several Irish and American artists.>USAID isn’t listed as providing any money for the event.
>>24519542>dude have you tried buying a house somewhere besides los angeles and brooklyn?Yes. I've left America and I'm much better off now as an immigrant. I might even buy a house this year.
>>24519554He's shitting on the last of the mochicans
>>24519530He's saying you don't need stupid shit like
"The axe blade, sharper than blades of a bat, cut the wooden trunk with such precision it flayed the layers of bark with every swing."
"The axeman swung mightily and in time, the tree fell." Is more than sufficient.
>>24519554That's because he's a HECKIN RAYCISS
Wink
md5: 311ada3c341eb3878c1028740970431b
🔍
>jews confounded by most actual men's unwillingness to read about the ultra fag brown xer standing up for globohomo values.
yeah
>>24519558It's a waste of fucking money. It's "only $70,000" of taxpayer throwing a party for faggots in another goddamn country. As if everyone spends $70,000 on parties.
>>24518186Yeah, a man who reads usually ignores what is trendy for fags and women.They go either for mature fiction, or for genre stuff.
Anyway, we all know nothing is going to change until the women are thrown out of the publishing industry. That's just the truth. They're the biggest problem, even more than the Jews and the fags. We have to get the women out.
>>24519535Fact check! Debunked! Haha, you were right, but for this tiny detail, which means it didn't happen.
nyt
md5: eb9ff209f49ffc29d70a6e00b3a78739
🔍
>>24519581this is my favorite "fact check" from the nyt, i saved a pic to remind me what a bunch of clowns they are in case i accidently take something they published seriously
>>24519580Men read so little they don't want to be agents, editors, or publishers. Also lololololololol trade school 100k bros
>>24519574I could meet you on that one, but the overall point is does that justify cutting ~70 billion in aid? You see my point? These heartless, soulless small government types scapegoat exaggerated claims of waste and fraud to cut and destroy government programs they don't like. If you have some sort of personal survival-of-the-fittest, no one help subsidize anyone else's living situation sort of political philosophy, then fine, I respect that, but it's these disingenuous ghouls out to fool the masses into voting against their interests and beliefs because 1% of food assistance money goes to ineligible people, therefore food assistance as a whole should be cut? That's despicable.
>>24519589so cutting gay musicals in ireland is "against the interests" of some american worker? interesting
>>24519589maybe bankrupting the country by buying votes with mountains of inflation stoking free gibs is heartless and soulless
>>24519589America as we know it deserves to die. Good riddance.
>>24519581But they weren't right, it wasn't millions :/
For the record, I'm a big-government conservative. Government should be helping its citizens, but certainly not illegals. Happy?
>>24519592Maybe, maybe not, but trying to save lives and stabilize a South American country does by reducing illegal immigration + preventing drug crops. Foreign Aid, when done right, does support the interests of regular Americans, yes. Are there wasteful programs? Of course, that's any government program. But doesn't mean we should burn the whole thing down is all I'm saying.
>>24519595>inflation stoking free gibsStudies have shown government assistance to the poor groups who need it actually boosts the economy because they'll be able to buy stuff, try again if that's your argument. If you wanna say "people should be responsible for their own well-being" then I wholeheartedly disagree but I'd respect it, but government spending is great for the economy.
>>24519602I'm not giving up on it yet.
>>24519604>Studies have shown government assistance to the poor groups who need it actually boosts the economyok cool i would love to read that study, link it up, bro, but actually the inflation i was talking about comes from the monstrous debt. if you want to raise taxes on workers and then give it to people who sit on the couch all day, that is your choice, but if you want to print money and give it to people who sit on the couch all day, its not going to be sustainable.
>>24519543>And now we get to the core of your beliefsMy beliefs? My beliefs? This is everyone's belief. The boomers got job security, five properties, and social security, and they know that shit is going to run out before Gen X can get anything back, but "fuck you. I got mine."
Gen X got dwindling job security, a house, but no pension and knew it was going to be even worse for the next generation, but they said "fuck you. I got mine."
Millennials got nothing. No job security. No house. No pension. Two economic collapses. A military draft on the horizon. And you want me to help the less fortunate? Help them how? You want the shirt off my back? If I say "fuck you" suddenly I'm the heartless one here? Do you have any idea how close I came to living in a cardboard box? Eat shit.
>>24518939TRVE.
we live in the Bad Ending.
>>24519608Just a quick one for SNAP
https://frac.org/programs/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program-snap/positive-effect-snap-benefits-participants-communities
>i was talking about comes from the monstrous debt.a) I'm still not convinced deficit-spending matters that much in the US, but agreeing that it does, b) okay then let's raise taxes on the richest 0.1%, which won't negatively affect their lives one iota, instead of cutting the bare necessities some people need to live.
>>24519613Yes, we should be striving to be better.
>>24519535>Cites NPR, a news organization whose donors funnel money from the same USAID programs they’re reporting on.
>>24519625But the facts are all there :/
Anon, this isn't /pol/, I'm being charitable with all of you, please be charitable in return.
>>24519617>For example, SNAP is good for local economies – each dollar in federally funded SNAP benefits generates $1.79 in economic activity.i can't help but notice the paragraph about "economic impacts" didn't have any links to studies. i mean i know soda companies are screeching about soda being banned from snap since more than a 3rd of their revenue comes from snap, and 20% of all snap spending goes to soda and other "sweet drinks".
Just to clear something up:
The reason we are seeing less media aimed at men and boys (in particular animation, movies and video games) is because we are on the brink of economic collaose and production compnies are shit scared of offending anyone since these days your multimillion dollar company is at the mercy of twitter poster.
So what happened was with all of those shootings in the US and stabbings in the UK studios have extra harsh guidelines these days about weapons. This is why we have had about a hundred martial arts type movies and especially animated tv shows that seem to go nowhere because people WANT to make guy stuff but you aren't allowed weapons anymore. Only a few places can get away with showing weapons such as Adult Swim and A24. I only know this because my gf is an animator and she is trying to get a show greenlit.
>>24519617>Yes, we should be striving to be better.The only thing we should strive for is burning it all down. Then we can rebuild.
And to keep this literature related, we need the big five publishers to also burn down. They're the oppressors dictating this era of feminist slop. Only once they're completely cut off from the money supply will they figure it's no longer worth it.
>>24519633https://medium.com/@jennunderwood/snap-explained-why-food-assistance-positively-impacts-the-us-economy-6b512f829012
https://academic.oup.com/restud/article-abstract/91/3/1291/7191876?login=false
https://www.cbpp.org/research/food-assistance/the-supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program-snap
You're making me fill my downloads folder with .pdfs on this argument, anon! There's a bajillion studies though. It's money spread out through real Americans spending money on their local, tangible economy, people who, ideally, will go on to become more productive later in life. For me though, it's simpler than that: it's something the government can do in this age, and it's a good thing, so it should.
>>24519650Or maybe more conservatives should be majoring in the liberal arts and go into these fields and publishing houses.
>>24519617>>24519633ok i found a source for it
>https://ers.usda.gov/sites/default/files/_laserfiche/publications/93529/ERR-265.pdfi don't have time to read through this whole thing to debunk on some reddit tourist's communism right now but the literature review at the beginning is actually pretty interesting because the multiplier is not at all guaranteed to be above one, it depends on the unemployment rate and interest rates and can very widely.
still many of these studies that basically say if you give a poor person 1 dollar for free they will spend it plus the 1 dollar they were going to spend anyway so the gdp is now twice as big sound a lot like republicans who say if you cut taxes it will increase economy because now there is more private sector money to be taxed i.e. the laffer curve. also, i don't see any studes talking about what all this free money does for price stability, but maybe it's in there somewhere, but my guess is it's not going to be good, since the covid gibs put inflation through the roof.
>>24517833Delusional. Leftists have been winning for over a century. Yes, the pendulum has swung back harshly towards the right, but the entire fixture the pendulum is mounted on is drifting left. 70 years ago, Mary Kay and Johnny, a married couple, shared a bed on Television and it was preposterous. Pornographic, even. Nowadays you can watch people have sex, talk about anal, do hard drugs, and bludgeon a skill in... all on cable. And it's not just TV. Acceptance of lgbt people, minorities, climate change. All of it has been growing to normalcy in the public consciousness. The right won a handful of battles and thinks they're the kings, all the while they've been losing the war steadily for decades.
>>24519664>Nowadays you can watch people have sex, talk about anal, do hard drugs, and bludgeon a skill in... all on cable.wow leftists have truly won! now queue your usual crying about increasing inequality lol
>>24519662Thank you. Hey, I'd be happy with even a neutral outcome. Like I said, to me it's about the moral good, I really couldn't care less about the economic impacts (so long as they aren't catastrophic, obviously) for my own moral compass.
Anyway, I guess the crux of my point is this: yes, in the last decades the liberal arts industry, academia, and government has, in many ways, turned its back on regular people and conservatives (at least what conservatives would consider regular people) -- but we shouldn't be trying to burn it down, but take it back. Philosophy departments are too lefty and social justice? Okay, fair critique. But the moment you start saying shit like "philosophy is useless anyway" you've lost your own humanity. And this applies to government and the arts. Anyway, nice talk, have a good one.
>>24519668Go ahead and tell me the country isn't a dozen times closer to socialism as it was in the 50's
>>24519585you should publicize this
>>24519182Depends I'd say. In Sweden, for example, they create controversy and take up a lot of space in the media and such with a little violence here and there, sure, but they're very disproportionally loyal to the social democrats, work as scabs for the capitalists, and are useful to create an identity-political issue for the people to focus on. So while they're unruly, they might as well be puppeted because they act in the establishment's interests. Is it very different in the US?
>>24519647the good thing is they are blocking chinese movies from american platforms so we dont have to worry about stuff coming from over there either
>>24519678the wsj just had an interesting article about how the parties have switched showing more low income people voted republican since 2012 and how high income people support democrats and that's making it harder for republicans to cut social programs which is why they couldn't cut much in the bbb since their constituents depend on it.
https://www.wsj.com/politics/the-problematic-politics-of-trumps-bill-more-lower-income-americans-are-voting-gop-0b6288d0
>>24519687i think rogan talked about it
>>24519700What happened to this board...
>>24519678ok so can you stupid having a hissy fit about trump 24/7 then? that would be great
>>24519704rogan let bernie do his commie-lite shtick for two hours last week, ok. you're losing elections because americans reject your policies not because some dude has a podcast.
>>24519710I'm not having a hissy fit. I care very little about current American politics. I'm just pointing out the facts. The world's becoming more liberal. Not all at once, but steadily. Your team is losing
>>24519714People like you used to get mocked so bad here they didn't return. And not from leftists, from readers... Because that's the point of the board.
>>24519718my team? fukuyama was 100 percent right. it's over for tradcucks. that doesn't mean america shouldn't be careful to avoid economic stagnation like europe find itself.
>>24519723yeah ok dude i've been on /lit/ since like 2012. you've just decided "rogan bad" because that's who the democrats are blaming for their latest failures. back then rogan was still considered a lib.
>>24519726>. that doesn't mean america shouldn't be careful to avoid economic stagnation like europe find itself.nothing to do with social programs and tax cuts
>>24519732>social programs and tax cuts have nothing to do with economic performancewow man "readers" like you sure are smart
>>24519730I've decided Rogan = Bad because it's a slop podcast being talked about on a LITERATURE board. You're like a 280lb whale trying to tell me that McDonald's is the best when we're on a board about exercise. What the fuck are you on about?
more viral marketing the fucking useless nigger mods won't clean up
>>24519741i mentioned rogan off hand for one sentence and you absolutely start seething to the point you're derailing the thread. get a grip dude.
>>24519742viral marketing for what? the new york times?
>>24518969I would convert if it'd give me trad white pussy.
>>24519751>Brings up off topic subject>I talk about how it's off topic >"Bro why are you seething about this? You're de-railing the thread!1!"Get a grip. Get a life. Read a book. Get off this board. In reverse order
>>24519691>they're very disproportionally loyal to the social democratsWell yeah, they vote for whichever party brings in more Muslims. They don't vote for them cause of fag parades.
>>24519758>mentions rogan once>reeeeeeEEEeeEEeeeee you don't READ!uh ok
>>24519761It's a LITERATURE board. I'm sorry that you read so little that your brain immediately goes to Joe Rogan for a cultural reference. I've never heard a single one of his podcasts. I don't know the first thing about it. I don't shovel slop in my mouth until it's the only thing I can pull a reference from
>>24519765a cultural reference? someone said that hilariously bad nyt snippet should be publicized, i merely said "i think rogan talked about it" which is to say the largest podcast on the planet already covered it, and you've been screeching ever since. it wasn't a "cultural reference".
>>24519774You responded directly to me mentioning Joe Rogan. I have no idea what article you're talking about. And having the biggest podcast in the world is like Marvel getting the highest box office earning or Katy Perry leading the charts. I don't care. It's slop. If you engage with it enough to know what happened in last week's episode, well... buddy, you're a retard
>>24519780>I have no idea what article you're talking about.so you just jumped in the thread to derail it? why don't you just go back to redddit dude.
>>24519783>redddit>Joe RoganYou're fried. It's over for you. I genuinely hope you're young so there's time to turn this around. If you're over 18, and id wager you are because of the 2012 thing, this is not the place for you
>>24519788if your strategy is to get this thread to hit the bump limit you'll have to do it on your own, have fun
>>24519791>Responds to every message instantly Fried
>>24517796 (OP)I pirate everything i read from libgen, as does any man with a brain.
Furthermore, if i were a NEET i wouldn't give a shit about cultivating a bookshelf, or if i had a successful career I'd be too busy making money out the ass to give a shit about my bookshelf; maybe i'd order some books by the foot in that case.
Shrinking middle class and changing taste thereof etc
>>24519662Give it a rest you economically illiterate midwit. Redistributing a taxpayer's buck so some stupid nigger can buy pepsi and sit on his ass is not "stimulating the economy."
>>24519754Yes, this and all the other garbage of this ilk being spammed the last few months is what democrats are spending millions on viz winning the heckin men back.
>>24519800You can really tell the quality of this board has dipped from the amount of people acting like every book ever is available for free online
>>24519780Even Malcolm Gladwell has been on rogan's podcast you clueless fucking out of the loop boomer. Fucking retards like you who like getting nth hand cultural facts (((editorialized))) 5+ years behind the curve comprise the majority of the jew york times subscribership.
Hey have you heard about this Moldybug cat? I hear he's up to no good!
>>24519838No they aren't readlet
>>24519863There are more quality books than you could ever even read uploaded. Give me one great book you can't find right now. Hell give me one good book. You could spend a good life reading public domain alone.
>>24519869>Give me one great book you can't find right nowMoving Right Along by Kenward Elmslie
>>24519879how would you know kindlecuck? It isn't online.
>>24519887Because it's a collection of poetry and there's a lot of his crap on annas archive. There are 1000s of better books you could read before this particular collection of shitty pomo poetry.
>>24519890Yeah cause the guy that gets all of his book recommendations from /lit/ charts is a great judge of quality.
>>24519890>Hasn't read it>Knows that the books he has read are betterlit in a nutshell
>>24519891>>24519893The poems are in other available collections
>>24519895I guess we don't need any albums except for Best Ofs then
>>24519900That wasnt your argument and it doesn't even logically follow.
>>24517806>and history.Actual history is privately catalogued in mystery schools. You're a pleb.
>>24519903Seriously? You're the one moving the goal posts. Just because SOME poems are available in other books does not men tht they ALL are, which is what people would want: the book.
>>24519906It's not a good book and in rare events you'd go to the library, or yeah, you can buy it. But that occasional purchase isn't floating any industries so I don't know what dumb fucking point you think you're making. There's 10,000 better books to read first that are free and online and that's what anyone with a brain is doing 99% of the time.
>>24519911>It's not a good bookYou haven't read it, how would you know?
>or yeah, you can buy it. exactly
>But that occasional purchase isn't floating any industries so I don't know what dumb fucking point you think you're making. The fact that people buy physical books because they don't have a free alternative and that you should know this as a literature enthusiast
>There's 10,000 better books to read first that are free and online and that's what anyone with a brain is doing 99% of the time.This is basically just a tantrum. None of this is true and you know it. It's okay, I forgive you, and I don't think that you're dumb or anything.
>>24519916It's not a book, it's a collection of poems, and some of those poems are available and I just read them and they're shit. How are you not following this?
Reminder to neck yourself you quibbling faggot wordcel.
>>24519925you really are an insufferably myopic individual.
>>24519926I really am thirty IQ points higher than you are and I'm done with you
>>24519931yeah okay, enjoy The Great Gatsby
>>24517796 (OP)>>24518866These people aren't concerned with whether or not 'men are reading'. They are, but as one of the authors admits, the novels that men are reading consists of classic literary fiction, 20th century sci-fi/fantasy genre fiction, and on the young adult men end they're reading webnovel/light novel slop.
The ACTUAL issue they have with it is that men are going off the reservation of what the publisher mafia wants them to read. They're not reading whomever the fuck 'Sally Rooney' and 'Ocean Vuong' (is that a real name) are and it makes them seethe with anger after having spent decades trying to take over the industry only to realise that nobody outside of their bubble gives a fuck.
The increase in these articles lately makes me think they're getting more and more desperate to try to shame men into reading dogshit nepobaby NY Times and Oprah recommendations in an attempt to 'win men' from the evil right wing -- as if they'll become bona-fide zogbots if only they real some moronic tripe written by a 23 year old MFA.
>>24519925Be patient
He's special
This is what men like to read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mQ3qNf9xx0
>>24519589>exaggerated claims of waste I don't think you understand how much money the US government wastes. Joe Biden's build back better program to fix infrastruture in the US was $2,000,000,000. Two billion. They still haven't fixed any of the destroyed railroad bridges on the east coast. Two billion dollars just up and fucking vanished and no one cares. And that's just one program. Then there's all the money that's going into holocausting Palestinians, that's going to cost every one in America at least $2,000. Go ahead and multiply the population of the US by 2,000. That's how much money they're pissing away on this genocide no one wants.
>>24519678>socialism is when degeneracy
>>24520070>genocide no one wants.Speak for yourself, I celebrate every dead sandnigger.
>>24520044There is something a distasteful about a lot of these long pretentious novels. The problem with anons here is they just blame "the industry" as if the only one to blame in things ending up here was the enemy. Why were they able to take over so easily. White men were already pretty darn pathetic, and I cannot blame literary feminists feeling a degree of dislike to them--though in truth they are only seeing their unpleasant reflection in the mirror of their sexual counterpart. I personally view it as a good thing that the pandering Wallaces of the world are being replaced by maladjusted Nazis, who are less pathetic and far more respectable, especially (I think) from the perspective of the feminists
>>24520088this, pomo doorstopper lit was a very typical decadence phenomenon
>>24520070>muh gaza parking lot50k dead in almost 2 years lil bro
at this rate they're literally outbreeding the bombs
very sloppy job if you ask me, israel needs to ramp up its pace if it wants to make this theory spread by 3rd worlders come to life
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/03/arts/straight-white-male-novelists.html
if you haven't seen this yet, not sure if there is a thread about it somewhere
>>24517796 (OP)Is the journalist an ESL wtf is that title?
>>24517839Lawton and Castro confirmed fags.
>>24520125>create a free account or log in
>>24520144it was free for me
>>24519835No idea who that is. Seems to make you mad. Is he a literary figure? If not, why are you talking about him now
>>24520494Establishment talking head for normie podcasts
>>24520511I see. Never listened and only read articles from the NYT if it's on an author I like, which is maybe quarterly. Even then I've never paid for it. Dunno what big dawg is seething about
>>24517796 (OP)>Yahdon Israel, a 35-year-old senior editor at Simon & Schuster>A Lucky Man by Jamel Barkley>A striking and indelible debut, A Lucky Man reflects the tenderness and vulnerability of black men and boys whose hopes sometimes betray them, especially in a world shaped by race, gender, and class—where luck may be the greatest fiction of all.kek this subversive jew got nuked by propaganda intended for the goyim
>>24517827You guys realize picrel is the book club in question right…
>>24519604>Boosts the economyFor who? So the middle class has their wealth transferred to a forever underclass who then hand it over to processed food and beverage corpos and that's good because line go up? C'mon. Food assistance should be done a bit more responsibly than it is.
>>24520144>he doesn't know how to bypass paywalls
>>24520110Oh look it's the JIDF telling us that only brown third-worlders could hate Israel... again.
>>24520088The cultural pipelines, academia and the media, that bestow credibility on new authors has filtered any man who still has his testicles for half a century. Not every millennial man is a pussy-whipped bitch. The ambitious ones who aren't saw the corruption and decided to find alternatives to traditional publishing. How many YouTube essays and primitive animations by young men have you watched? Probably thousands. That's where they went instead of trying to find acceptance in the kosher hen-house of academia and publishing where they were actively being discriminated against.
>>24519759Sure, but they're still effectively under control by the establishment left. And I don't think it's just that they're who took all the immigrants in, the moderates (establishment capitalist right) did so too but don't have that loyalty. It's a continuously maintained thing.
>>24520899Under control how? They give them votes in return for welfare and immigration.
Who do you think wins long term here?
>>24520903What other control would they try to exert? The muslims give the liberal left power, help the capitalists and the state by growing the population with cheap labour, and they keep identity politics relevant and in focus. Who wins in the long term? The technological system probably, but that's not a conscious aim. No political movement or group is doing anything for the long term here. It's just scrambling for quick wins.
>>24520926It ain't short term if their population keeps growing.
>>24520648It's good because it allows those people to live. Stimulating the economy is a secondary benefit.
>>24520931I'm not denying that there are long-term effects, just that anyone is doing anything with the long term in mind. So what do you think the answer is?
>>24520940I already told you. Muslims want to have more Muslims. That is the long term plan. Domination and conquest. Leftoid natives follow an ideology literally built to allow their conquest.
>>24520935But you can't imagine keeping people alive any other way than giving them a government debit card they can use to buy frozen pizzas and soda.
>>24520947Oh sure, there's also investing in education and public infrastructure and free healthcare.
>>24517820>high brodernist>Brodernism is not a writerly movement but a critical tendency, not a tradition in the strict sense but a kind of post facto absorption, a critical construction with no real basis in textual history or novelistic corpus that is slowly trickling into the fictional unconscious. An aesthetic product, often, of critical ignorance or disregard: glorious local and regional traditions of experimentality or ambition vanish under the haze of a homogenizing (and loudly proclaimed) American reception as “difficult.” If careerism is the dominant literary style in the United States, brodernism esteems itself the resistance. Provincial or hermetic American texts balloon outwards and swallow up the world, unaware that the world was already in them. The complex interplays of local and transnational that define most literary production disappear into a diffuse but ever-expanding vacuousness into which all are incorporated: some broad notion of “challenging” or “maximalist” literature. Formalism devoid of form. Brodernism, nostalgic for the would-be uncharted waters of modernism (but whose?), revives the early 20th century’s fetish for textual originality devoid of its acute historical self-consciousness and critical cosmopolitanism.https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/against-high-brodernism/
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>>24517827buying books at Barnayse and Noblay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua0P0c4LNcg
>>24517827Everyone in glasses voted Jill Stein.
>>24521325>Most concerning, for me, is that brodernist criticism interprets foreignness itself as “difficult.” The brodernist measures of “challenging” literature are a constrained series of attributes: winding sentences, explicit references to entropy and math and classical music, metanarration, anti-realism, lonely and existential male protagonists, brick-length tomes, cringey and misogynistic sex scenes, the stench of once having read Nietzsche, the words “psychedelic” and “oneiric,” half-hearted genre-play. Kafka, poor guy, gets thrown around a lot. The problem, to be clear, is not these traits—honest-to-God masterpieces compose much of the brodernist corpus—but their reduction into a series of attributes to be repeated as kitsch. Not the literature of exhaustion but an exhausting, at times exhausted, literature. A zombie avant-garde.>...>It’s not that Krasznahorkai’s satire misses the target or that I expect him to have all the answers. But his point about complicity—in the end, Florian is a regretful Nazi redeemed by killing other Nazis—reeks of the trite centrism that governed the 2010s and gave rise to Alternative für Deutschland and their allies around the world. Fascism is bad: you don’t say! And, more damningly: as a uniquely powerful, fascistic Far Right reconquers much of the world, are neo-Nazis anything more than a fantastic trope or an evasion of the present? Such triteness, I think, hides behind the phantom of formal experimentation, of the “difficult” single-sentence novel whose inert, traditionalist politics fail to match its would-be radical form. But modernism—brodernism—without insight is just dull cliché.Yeah, I care about what this guy thinks.
>>24519978>Vuongaren't those the niggas from the star wars expanded universe that spooked palpatine
>>24521332>A Lucky Man: Storieswow it's not eeeven a novel
>>24519058>in america muslims are all libs, see mamdani.Mamdani isn't a liberal, he's a socialist. Liberals are capitalists, they believe in wallstreet and tax breaks for small businesses, and their only difference with conservatives is that they approve of dark skinned people and atheism and solar energy and conservatives don't. Mamdani wants to have a government run supermarket. They are not the same.
>>24517796 (OP)My entire family has been dead since I was like 18. I had to make fucking money and get jobs, every single day is me doing something to get more.
It's not like the 50s or 70s or even 80s anymore. Back then you could very comfortably rent an apartment by yourself working part-time at the minimum wage. Today you need to be working full-time, always, to afford anything.
Nobody is reading fiction books except women, because only they have enough free time to waste on something so excessive.
>>24518186>>24518308>be jew>Jack London, Ernest Hemingway, Hunter Thompson all exist>"actually only fags write things"I'm so sick of hearing about Israel
>Yahdon Israel, a 35-year-old senior editor at Simon & Schuster
>>24520070>>24519589I sometimes have to look for government funding opportunities, and it's true. You see shit all the time like "$80,000 for kids summer camp in Kazakhstan" or "$120,000 to educate niggers in the Congo" just hundreds of programs like that, piled up to millions and billions of dollars, meanwhile you can throw a rock and hit a homeless camp in any major US city.
>>24521882Hemingway was trans you shitlord8s2
>>24518271>or don’t WANT to market to us PROPERLY because they hate the things we’re drawn to and want us to change to accommodate the slop they produceIt's this, because of the oversupply crisis. Demand is far outstripped by supply thanks to mass manufacturing, and these companies have loans and bills to pay. So they will propagandize the humans who make up their market and when that doesn't work, they'll scold and harangue them and try to make them feel inferior until they submit by purchasing the product. Note that at no point was there any interest in the article about what men thought about ANY of the mentioned books. That's not the point: nobody ACTUALLY cares about what men think about what is presented to them. The discussion begins and ends with BUYING stacks of paper bound between cardboard panels and sold at a 400% markup.
Also note that the one author not mentioned when his books' titles were is Pierce Brown, who wrote Red Rising, Iron Gold, and Light Bringer. His books DO sell, and men like them, but the article's author deemed him less worthy of mention than Matt fucking Dinniman, author of "Dungeon Crawler Carl," a litRPG series of questionable quality (DCC is objectively worse than the Red Rising series). So it's not only that men need to buy more books, they need to be steered to buy the RIGHT books, which happens to be the books languishing in warehouses, printed but never sold, cluttering bookshelves and gathering dust. Also not mentioned? Japanese light novels and manga, despite those sections growing like cancerous tumors in every bookstore with a positive balance sheet.
This entire article was a joke: it certainly got enough laughs out of me.
>>24521907I feel you, except most people who say stuff like this wouldn't be for spending money on helping the homeless anyway.
>>24519097It's not that complicated. Look up Arab Socialism and the leftist pre-occupation with immigration as part of the communist project in America. It's only confusing if you didn't live through it or haven't read about it (Blacklisted by History is a good point of introduction, covering the capture of the State Department shortly prior to WW2 and how communists became entrenched in government when McCarthy and HUAC failed to root them out). I never go to /his/ so I don't know if they'd be able to help with more sources, and /p*l/ is 90% bots/shills at this point so they'll be no help.
>>24517827“Why don’t men read novels anymore?!?!?”
Literally a True Grit Western Chad in the picture.
The whole article is a shitshow and I could spend at least an hour breaking it down, but I guess anons ITT already have. I just wanted yo point out that this weird opposition between masculinity and literary novels seems to be some kind of mostly American autism. Never saw anything like this in my country, even though our literary scene is also in a sorry state (still better than America though) and plagued with pseuds. I guess the phenomenon of falsely pretending to have read a book is a sign of a living literary culture.
>>24521833liberals gave us the government run public housing aka projects that act as property value black holes all around american cities
>>24519978>>24521596"Ocean Vuong" sounds like the name of an asian pornstar. Was that really the best name he could come up with?
>>24521970I was homeless you fucking fag
and either way if we're wasting money it might as well be on Americans rather than some Congo retard
>>24522265Anyone who gets worked up about welfare is a Chamber of Commerce
Most jobs in US are pointless or demeaning
You worship Satan if your main concern is getting people working--working for what?
You have to work for the right things or else it is all vain
>>24519097Islam is an endlessly flexible religion defined by two early sentiments:
1. Response by brutish nomadic tribes to Trinity-tism in the late antique eastern Roman empire
2. Puritanism which emerged within decades when rationalist clerics tried to cut down on fables about the prophet Muhammad (called hadiths) and utterly failed. these hadith multiplied and form a major pillar of Sharia jurisprudence, which works like case law except you get to pick and choose which unsourced mythical precedents apply as long as you are a legitimate cleric, even if contradictory precedents exist.
So basically, Muslims can believe almost anything they want, the important part is that you recite your rote daily prayers and follow the major commandments of Islam. Historically Muslim faith in each region has directly followed the needs and interests of the secular rulers.
It's essentially an anti-Christian synthetic moral system. It's like turbo-protestantism. Given those descriptors it's absolutely no surprise they could ally with leftists.
>>24519018Laugh out fucking loud.
>>24519097They’re stupid and you’re stupid for not recognizing it
>>24519352A recent example exposed was Dustborn which had, not some, MOST of its money come from Norwegian tax payers.
When they don’t feel it to threaten them any more they boast about public money sponsoring their righteousness
>>24519424First of all you’ll need to fight the uphill battle of finding a publisher which as someone with 4 strikes against you will be difficult as it’s an open secret they’re not even taking submissions from your type
>>24522927oh is dustborn that literally gay borderlands rip-off? as if tiny tina's wonderland wasn't a gay enough borderlands spinoff for anyone in the market for a such a thing?
>>24522935you have to create a parallel publishing ecosystem which it seems like they just realize could actually happen given the suddenly all this faux concern about underserved male readers coming from media whose hostility to white males is well known
>>24519452The type of people who would be affected by social programs cut have made it clear whether they meant to or want to that they have no consideration for me, including boomers. Especially boomers. If it improves my life, I will take it out of them like they have chosen to take it out of me.
Not that I believe the current government is much more than an empty symbology nor will it reverse the direction we’re headed.
>>24519542Housing prices in my state have doubled the last 15 years. Sorry I didn’t buy a cheap house in a nice white neighborhood working at McDonald’s at 17 like a fucking boomer. This new garbage they’ve been letting the illegals through together they want $450,000 at minimum because to all the fucking Californians fleeing that’s the cheapest house in the nicest neighborhood they’ve ever seen.
>>24519543I’m not him. But I have been told for the past ten years to go fuck myself. Why would I be the bigger man for people who hate me and want me gone? It’s 2025, Your guilt tripping has reached its credit limit. It’s merely coincidence now that my beliefs would improve life as a whole in my country.
>>24519589We didn’t need it then. We don’t need it now. The gravy train is over. We’ll never trust you again.
viewtiful joe should read this article
https://archive.ph/FdFRX
>>24519097Muslims are seen as closer to an ethnic group than a religious one by many liberals, who have little knowledge of what Islamic beliefs actually entail, and besides, showing too much interest in it in a non-academic sense demonstrates questionable motivations. it would be really bad for a white liberal to criticize Muslims and Islam, because historically strong, conquering, or oppressive groups must not critique historically weak, conquered, victimized, or poor groups. This undermines a core moral value (tolerance), and opens the door to Nazism, and perhaps the most important aim of contemporary liberalism is to prevent something like Nazism from coming to power again. You can criticize Saudi Arabia, but that's about it if you want to remain in polite society.
>>24517833>>24517796 (OP)>when you become a rightoid, you become an illiterate ignoramus is that their conclusion?
>read around 80 fiction books yearly
At this point I've accepted that I live within my own microcosm where nobody else reads and there is no sufficient platform on the internet to discuss books in their purest form without egregious outside interference.
>>24523893Newly published fiction? Like you read 80 books published in 2024?
I'm shocked. Please enlighten us, what's it like in the trenches? What were your five favorites?
>>24518700We had to read The Bear, which is something, but I can't imagine any American high school today assigning one of his novels.
>>24517833The American left is openly man-hating and the right is openly woman-hating. Thanks to them no one can get married
>>24524338There's always been tension between men and women. The reason no one is getting married is women are conformists addicted to comfort, and they're told it's totally okay to be careerist whores, and men don't want careerist whores, and elders and authorities aren't even trying to correct them. Imagine you lived in a world where women were encouraged to have families by their community and men didn't have to compete with them for white collar jobs. That shit is gone now. Jewish subversion and boomer apathy strikes again.
>>24524359We do live in a world were women are encouraged to have families. I get harassed to get married all the time.
t. East Asian woman
>>24524359>men didn't have to compete with them for white collar jobsMen don't compete with women for white collar jobs. Men think white collar jobs are girly shit and refuse to even apply
I am a hiring officer and I would rather hire men then women because men don't go on pregnancy leave but for every male applicant there's seven females and they actually show up on time
>>24524398You were probably told to go to college and delay all that too.
>>24524398Ohh me so hony babay
>>24524407>Men don't compete with women for white collar jobs. Men think white collar jobs are girly shit and refuse to even applyOh bullshit. I've seen the tech industry get infiltrated first hand. They get promoted to middle management and fuck up the careers of young men under them.
>>24524408I was told to go to college because in my culture women are expected to help support the family. It's irrational not to have both parents work, even if the woman is mostly a homemaker a man who does not want his wife to have a certificate that can get her a gig is a man who wants his kids to starve to death if she is ever widowed.
>>24524409Too bad, I'm only into nip boys with small feet.
>>24524414I've seen the opposite working as a secretary. There's usually a bunch of Indian men and White men in my tech company who watch sports ball on the TV in the lobby and a tiny old Jew and two women who actually work for most of the day. Might just be Indian culture and Southern Euro culture (the White dudes are Greek geeks)
>>24524359>careerist>whoresIf your daughter is uneducated she is much more likely to become a sex worker when you die. It was boomer women who told their daughters that a man is not a plan. A man can die, a man can lose his job, a man can lose interest. There's a thread up right now with an anon planning to cheat on his wife for a ridiculous reason, even though he could end up infecting her with an STD.
Womanhood before the Jews did their equality thing was a spiral of endless poverty unless they had sex with men they were not physically attracted too.
>>24524420I've seen boomer senior management and a hen house of female project managers who have no fucking clue how to lead, and frustrated millennial men and foreign ass-kissers just happy to be in on the scam.
>>24524438It's totally normal that women wait until they're almost 40 to get an established career before having children and then both parents doing bullshit paper shuffling jobs while kids are sent to be raised by strangers for money before they can even speak. Great lifestyle. LMAO.
>>24523947>published in 2024Hell no.
>>24524440Might depend on the particular work place. A lot of older women I've worked with were competent but in the age of diversity hiring the quality has gone way down. There is a bit of an issue with young men dropping out of society and just not bothering anymore, so even when old boomers like me actually want to help them and give them a chance they just don't even try
>>24524444My dentist felt the same way.
She was a religious gal who married a man a few years older the moment she got out of high school, and had a baby. A few years later she had another baby. The man decided that he didn't like her postpartum body and moved to another province.
She had to send the babies to be raised by strangers to go to college and be able to get a job to afford those babies.
But the story has a good ending because she's a pretty okay dentist.
>>24524485>The man decided that he didn't like her postpartum body and moved to another province.Yeah sure. Just a man abandoning his family because he's a sex-crazed retard. She was probably the perfect doting wife. Men are such pigs aren't they? LMAO
>>24517796 (OP)but im right here
>>24524469They've been systematically disenfranchised, gramps.
>>24524497Bro, look at yourself. You constantly dunk on the opposite sex and yet you expect them to trust you with their finances. Would you trust a feminist with feeding you and your kids for the next twenty years or would you hesitate?
>>24524502>Offer young men a job>Nah, you probably won't hire me because I'm white and maleI am literally offering people jobs but you tards are to hard to save
>>24524509Does it pay enough to afford the lifestyle you had in your 20s? Or are they going to end up living as single rent slaves either way?
>>24524505No I wouldn't because I'm not a retard who thinks men and women are the same. Men keep women around because they're good mothers, easy to please, and don't nag them to death. Women keep men around if they can provide them the lifestyle they think they deserve. Ain't the same, dummy.
>>24524516I used the example precisely to try to elicit some empathy for someone who is socially and biologically different from you, but would effectively be in the same situation as you and the feminist.
The issue is that men constantly deny that other men are capable of wrong-doing; you can't even believe that I personally know a good naive religious girl who fell for the trad meme and got screwed.
So let me write this so that its clear for you. Women don't want to stop being housewives because a small Middle-Eastern ethno-cultural group is telling them to labour for a middle manager all their lives. If the fifties vision of a housewife existed people would be in a hurry to return to it.
The reason they don't want to do it is because the traditional life style is a massive risk.
People make mistakes at eighteen. They are naive and easily manipulated. To chose to get married at eighteen is statistically likely to lead the way to divorce. If you do not get any kind of education but rely only on your sexual partner to provide money for you, this becomes a move that your children will curse you for.
>>24524513Too be honest, not even I have the lifestyle I had in my twenties. I still think it is better to have a job and training that is useful compared to shitposting and playing video games.
>>24524529>The issue is that men constantly deny that other men are capable of wrong-doing; LMAO. No you.
>The reason they don't want to do it is because the traditional life style is a massive risk.Not if your primary concern is having children and giving them an environment to learn and grow at their pace instead of being an afterthought who has to live a life scheduled for adult convenience. You know what's really risky? Waiting until you're 35 to take having children seriously.
>>24524531Useful to whom?
>>24524531I'm a millennial and I was told to learn to code by boomers who then imported millions of Indians to drive down my wages. Now big corpos are in a rush to build a general AI which is going to replace everyone, and because I live in the USA, which is an economic zone more than a country, this is all okay. It's the market at work. That's the world you left for younger generations. Of course they're nihilistic and depressed.
>>24524551I told you a story of a person I know who tried to make their children their main priority right from the get go, and ended up making it harder for herself. You responded derisively by denying this happened.
But the reality is that many of the women who are currently most against the trad wife meme are the women who saw similar events occur and do not want to end up a feminist cautionary story, cause no way are the people who cheer for that choice going to in anyway blame anyone other than the literally teenage girl who should have "chosen better"
And I never said that people should wait til 35. Ideal age is late twenties after both partners have received useful career training because then the children will experience financial security regardless of if one of the parents is out of commission by an accident
>>24524558Useful to themselves once this economy completely collapses. Kid who is learning to drive a forklift is going to be better off than shitposters
>>24524566Yeah, I won't deny that its been tough. But what can I do? I vote for the right wing and they don't change much in that regard. I try to personally help by helping young men but they are so depressed they won't take a helping arm when offered
>>24524575Lady, get your head out of your ass. Men have women divorce them too. They get left behind because they couldn't live up to ridiculous standards, or because a woman got bored and resentful of them. This female victim mentality you have is a huge part of the problem.
>>24524589I am not a lady. I am a dude probably old enough to be your grandpa. But I actually speak to women and they give reasons for not getting married young that I believe are indeed reasonable. The "men too" uno reverso card does not apply here, because while I have deep sympathy for fathers separated from kids, you cannot compare the financial and physical vulnerability of a working bloke to that of a homemaker. You yourself mentioned that men and women are different. And you are asking a lot from a person at eighteen when you ask her to attach herself to another person who is physically stronger than her for life with no back up plan if the relationship goes south.
If we want to convince more people to have children we need to make women feel safe to do so
>>24524589>>24524611To continue, it is a shame that all these pro-natalist movements do everything in their power to isolate the sex that actually gives birth to kids. It's like how the left isolated the sex that actually goes to war. Society is only truly productive when both sexes get something out of it. Otherwise it goes to shit like Afghanistan or even our society today with boys dropping out. We literally need both sexes to engage to have something productive going on but one side hates women too much and the other side hates men too much
>>24524611And you do that by encouraging them to delay starting families and giving them make work jobs sending emails and telling them that anybody who holds them to standards from your generation are evil incarnate? You're an apathetic boomer who let the culture in this country get degraded for shareholder profit, and now you're telling us it's all our problem. You need to die and get out of the way already, you useless old bastard.
>>24517796 (OP)>favorite fictionShocking that man is 35
>>24524630Do you have an argument against women getting job training that does not involve insults?
We aren't Third Worlders. A girl can finish a four year nursing degree or two years of secretarial school and then start a family at twenty-five or six. My wife and I did and we have a family of four. When I had an injury and could not work she stepped up and thanks to her, that family did not starve. You need to stop looking at memes reposted by Indians and right-wing bots and start looking at the world practically.
One of the ways we can get women to reproduce at all is to stop dehumanizing them and asking them to take massive risks with their fates
>>24524652If a woman gets married early and divorced she could still have parents who aren't useless geriatrics yet to help with childcare and she could go to school and yadda yadda. Push that back 15, 20 years and you think it's easier? You think people who get married later are all super established and nothing could fuck up their lives? You're not even thinking this shit through. You're just a retard parroting establishment bullshit. You're old and dumb. Shut up.
>>24524660A woman in her mid-twenties or late twenties typically still can have parents who could help. The issue is you keep asking women on mass to give up being able to make their own money. There is no way a large demographic of people are giving up making money. Money is power and money is safety and by denying people the chance to get their hands on some you will only make them hate you. It is especially terrifying in the domestic situation because a woman who is reliant on her husband to feed her kids has little recourse if he cheats or becomes abusive, and will be doomed to see those kids starve if he is killed in a car crash or because one of those neo-libs you loathe so much injected him with an experimental vaxx
What I am trying to convince you of is that you need to figure out how to logically get women on board to raise the birthrate. Forcing them into slavery won't work. Iranian women and pajeet women famously loathe their men
>>24524672>What I am trying to convince you of is that you need to figure out how to logically get women on board to raise the birthrate.By doing nothing to change a broken culture that incentivizes everyone into being a money grubbing paranoid selfish asshole. Gee thanks, pops. What a guy. Remember what that Elvis fella said about suspicious minds. I know it's difficult these days, but try and think about it.
>>24517848came here to post this
>>24518700I got assigned Faulkner in high school, but it was "intruder in the dust". I think some of the other classes got "as I lay dying"
>>24524415I was putting words in your mouth you dumb gook
>>24517816>BernsteinEVERY
SINGLE
FUCKING
TIME
>>24517796 (OP)He hasn't disappeared. He just didn't want to go to Mr. Israel's poncy little book club.
>>24524611Kek. There's no way you aren't a woman. Old men don't use the phrase "her postpartum body".