Thread 24529632

Cause it's not.
>I keep seeing liberals say that in: college, reddit, liberal Churches (my parents dragged me too), news media, youtube, etc
>finally decide to read it
>It's an endlessly monotonous excruciating slog that repeats the same shit over and over:
Where is this supposed beauty?
Am I just not getting it?

>>24529632 (OP)
Without Arabic you cannot comprehend it, Retard

>>24529632 (OP)
Because they're told Islam is a tolerant progressive religion (it's not). And they believe it without question.

>>24529632 (OP)
You're focusing to much on the reward/punishment angle. Remember it was made for illiterate Arabs who at the time had a fear- based pagan religion (aka: they had to appease angry gods or bad things would happen). So front loading all this fear mongering was necessary to get them to take it serious.
It's sort of like how society today is atheistic so any future religion would require scientism type language and a clinical approach to seem relevant.
For basically all modern Muslims it's about faith and not appealing to fear-based societies.

>>24529632 (OP)
It's due to their reflexive defense of marginalized minorities. If the US had a cabal of mullahs actually influencing policy, they'd be signing a different tune.

>>24529632 (OP)
Because they're virtue signaling

>>24529632 (OP)
Assuming you can't read arabic, the trick is to get an arabic-english version with nice arabic calligraphy and then don't read the english. The squiggles are nice.

>>24529632 (OP)
I'm a leftist and I have never heard a single leftist say ''the Koran is beautiful'', you just created a straw-man and you are arguing against your own mental creation like a schizo

>>24529683
Well, the US has a cabal of rabbis actually influencing policy, and the left isn't exactly antisemtic.

>>24530573
>I'm a leftist
stopped reading there.

>>24530573
Most likely OP means "liberals", at least I can believe that some retarded burger pushing for token diversity could say this. But an anarchist or an ML? Never seen it either.

>>24529664
>It's sort of like how society today is atheistic so any future religion would require scientism type language and a clinical approach to seem relevant.

>>24530576
>left isn't exactly antisemtic
LOLWUT. You haven't been to a university have you. All modern left does is say "all Israelis need to die" all the time.

>>24531220
They don't say that and your pic even proves it. The left was intelligently able to delineate between zionism and Judaism and thereby created a broadly palatable movement. Rightoids are now out in the cold despite being the forerunners in attacking Israel.

All the non-believers will be defeat and burn forever.
Allah knows what's in your hearts and thought's you cannot decide him.
You cannot hide you evil, your day of punishment is coming.
And that means YOU reading this.

>>24529683
It's more like a reflexive rejection of the right's attempt to redefine leftism into an attack against nationalist outgroups. This has also happened with environmentalism and feminism.

>>24531230
>you cannot decide him
REŠI GA!

>>24531234
>a reflexive rejection of the right's attempt to redefine leftism into an attack against nationalist outgroups
Wait, who are the outgroups? Sovereign Citizens? Neo-cons?
And how is embracing Islam a leftist counter to the rights attempted to redefine them?
I mean Islam is pretty fucking right wing, and explicitly hates the left (not dislikes, not disagrees with, not tolerates, fucking HATES the left).
>This has also happened with environmentalism and feminism.
How? I can sort of understand environmentalism embracing certain right wing factions, given that the Green's have weirdly come to quasi-Nazi ideas on their own (like: "heterogamy (hybrid vigor) "proving" that mix-race peple are genetically superior and therefore should decide who survives "life boat politics" (eg: Greens developed a genocidal master race theory)).
But Feminism... I don't see them anything but totally mercenary. Early feminist were into the "wholesome Christian" image when it suited them, then 2nd wave as "free love anti-establishment & spiritual" and now feminism is establishment conformist "girl-bossing".

>>24529632 (OP)
They are cuntrarians and/or hate straight, white Christian males more than anything.

>>24531250
Muslims are the outgroup in this case
>And how is embracing Islam a leftist counter
It's not 'embracing Islam' - there's a middle ground which is not letting yourself be riled up into a ferment and opposing those that have been.
>How?
The big counter when Greta Thunberg was getting big was that her and the other environmentalists should be focusing on India and China instead of the West. It's doubly retarded because, firstly, plenty of Western countries have higher carbon emissions per capita than India or China, and secondly, even if that weren't the case, it's far more sensible to focus on bringing about structural change in your own country.
As for feminism, the complaint was that Western feminists should be focusing more on the Middle East. This is also retarded because there are feminist groups in the ME, there are Western feminists who have commented on those issues, and there are international feminist organizations that do actually work to improve gender equality in the developing world.
The complaints really signal the conditions under which the Right is willing to tolerate any kind of non-conservative movement and those conditions amount to being able to convert said movement into an attack against a perceived outgroup.

>>24529632 (OP)
It's because no one is impressed by performative atheism now, so they have to find the next best way to get attention

>>24529632 (OP)
To advocate for the devil, they may simply mean what most Muslims mean, that is, that the Quran recited in Arabic is beautiful. In fact, it was Muhammad's special, as in retarded, argument for its divine origin. To be sure, it can sound nice enough:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9xWm3sRS8mA

But uniquely beautiful? That's not an argument. I prefer the random following example myself:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UpVazaj4lH4

>>24530335
But what is virtue in this case ?
It's clearly auto-criticism. If you think about it, criticism of the west is the most west thing. It's the Borg's tentacle. Try to pry it open, it clinches even harder.

The same stands in an hypothetical scenario where virtue signaling normies would be subjected by Islam. They would certainly have no problem doing it as long as they'd still feel western. But as soon as they become integrated within Islam, these inclinations towards self-criticism will resurface.

I wish good luck to Islam.

>>24531268
>The complaints really signal the conditions under which the Right is willing to tolerate any kind of non-conservative movement
Its an attempt to keep right-populism alive via in-group loyalty "purity tests", it won't work though. As climate change gets worse both the right will have to adapt, I think they will (and embryonically already are starting to) embrace tech-futurism, you know "visionary" tech-billionaires leading companies that are "changing the world" in the hope that they can invent ways to solve climate change. Either way the current right is doomed, I don't think it'll last another 10 years.

>>24529632 (OP)
I haven't seen non-muslims say this. But what muslims mean when do they do is that the Qur'anic style of Arabic eloquence/argumentation is wholly and utterly unique compared to the milleu of Arab poetry at the time. The Qur'an sort of stands at a league of its own in all aspects of Arabic "literature" that it must be of divine origin.

Although how good a piece of literature is is subjective, there are objective ways of comparing pieces of literature. The Qur'an's influence as a single piece of work far exceeeds anything else in Arabic literature or any other language for that matter. It defined the Arabic to come, it formed the basis of an Empire. Great men throughout history have praised the contents of the Qur'an.

As for the Bible, it's not really one piece of literature, but many combined, written by different people for different purposes. If anything, Christians themselves define what the Bible means to them rather than the Bible defining their lives. I think this is because of the vague language of many passages and the numerous contradictions coming from the different authors.

Which reminds me of the passage from the Qur'an: Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

>>24531370
Are you a believer or not?
All non-believers will burn in hell.
That is the will of God.
Consider your fate.

>>24531411
Have you read the Koran?
Its good except every 10 seconds it says "and you'll be punished severely if don't listen to this book".
If they just cut that shit out, it would be great.

>>24531419
It hammers in the fact so that muslims won't be swayed by heresies. If you compare with the Bible, the Bible hardly ever mentions hell, especially the OT. And there are Christians sects like the JW who argue hell doesn't actually exist. So if you're constantly reminded in every prayer (where one or two surahs are recited), that God is merciful, punishing, all powerful, one etc., you can't really deny these attributes and what they imply. That's how I look at it anyway

>>24531411
The Quran is boring, moronic, bizarre, and wildly inconsistent with several factual errors sprinkled throughout. That alone is enough to dismiss any assertion that it is "of divine origin". Also, if it was revealed by God, why did he have to abrogate so much of it? Could he not get it right the first time? Man I fucking hate this stupid piece of shit book and if I had a time machine I'd go back and kill Muhammad before he started fucking that old hag.

>>24529683
The US has indian and Chinese and Jewish minorities with disproportionate influence and leftists don't even care, I've never seen them whine about islamic empires or Saudi support for Israel once

>>24531220
The left does word play to justify all of them ill treatment of people
>I don't want to kill Asians, I just want to kill "White-adjacent" minorities
>I don't want to kill ALL Jews, just the 99% of them that are poor and brown and not George Soros
And it works because George is the only one funding them and because they are the mainstream to an extent; in a few years once the fever dream passes and they start asking themselves why they let black nationalist beat Korean women to death and cheered for little Israeli girls and Arab Christians being shot they will pick out some token scapegoat and blame the right somehow

>>24531268
Oh, so now per capita measurements matter

>>24529632 (OP)
/ic/fag here. They do the same with Arabic art even though Europe MOGs a gazillion times. It's just a love for the exotic.
>>24529683
The mullahs invested billions into various parties and social media platforms
They were just quieter about it than the Jews so the leftists never noticed

>>24530576
No, just vehemently anti-Zionist, which makes sense since that influence manifests as a Zionist foreign policy, not banning of pork and work on the Sabbath in the US.
>>24532702
>I don't want to kill Asians, I just want to kill "White-adjacent" minorities
>I don't want to kill ALL Jews, just the 99% of them that are poor and brown and not George Soros
Who are you quoting? Name them explicitly.

>>24529632 (OP)
The reality is that the majority of people simply say what someone else told them to say.

Saying the Koran is "beautiful" is just one of the "arguments" muslims use to "show" it's a holy book . This crap is just repeated by leftists because that's what they've been told by their muzzie friends who try to convert them.

>>24529632 (OP)
It manages to cover mostly the same shit as Judaism and Christianity plus more in a far more concise manner. Nowhere near as longwinded or repetitive as most religious texts even outside the Abrahamic ones. I also liked how grounded it was, which makes it far more practical in a way the other religions aren't which are too focused on the inner self without understanding how outward actions and inner self actually interact.

>>24529632 (OP)
Leftoids also didn't reads Das Capital or whatever. Yes, the Koran quote mines into something relatively kino. But read it and you won't feel compelled. It's theocratic drivel. Whereas the Bible is a beautiful salvation story.

>>24529632 (OP)
That's wild that you put all that effort into reading an esoteric holy book but couldn't be bothered to understand the very simple leftist position on that matter.
They're not literally talking about the Koran or beauty, you imbecile. In fact, when issuing phrases like that, they rarely reference the Koran at all. Few have read it and they don't care to, because the point of it has nothing to do with the Koran or Islamic doctrine. If you supposedly "keep seeing" people defend Islam, you should have noticed by now, it's not a sentiment made in a vacuum. It's a direct response to Islamophobia and racism against Muslim-majority ethnic groups and refugees. It's not about the book or even the religion, it's about the people.

>>24529632 (OP)
It actually is beautiful, but on an aesthetic level (as well as semantic really), classical Arabic is one of the most untranslatable languages. Consider, for example, that in English there’s one way to say the word ‘love’, whereas in Arabic there is over a dozen, each with significantly different connotations.

>>24532700
oh so the left is just stupid and emotional because they are mentally stunted sheltered mentally ill homosexuals.

They just hate whatever is popular to hate.

>>24532700
Which religious laws are those minority groups imposing on the entire nation?

>>24532700
Literally the only people who criticize Saudi Arabia are leftists, while rightoid politicians are always there bowing to them, what the fuck are you talking about

>>24530616
you haven't met a decolonialist Maoist I take it?

>>24532700
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/15soq6a/whats_up_with_all_of_the_sudden_middle_eastern/
Now you have. The reason you've "never seen" the left criticize muslim countries is because you don't actually know any lefties or at least any comfortable discussing their opinions with you.

>>24533007
Why would they be in favour of Islam

>>24530573
OP never used the word leftist
In fact he said "progressives" and "liberals"
Either you cannot read or flew into a rage at the subject matter, in either case you should see yourself out.

>>24532692
>The Quran is boring, moronic, bizarre
I mean, that's your opinion

>wildly inconsistent with several factual errors sprinkled throughout
All of these have been explained for about 100 years now by experts and non-experts. I've failed to see any Qur'an hater respond to these explanations, especially Christian missionaries and "ex-moslems"

>>24529632 (OP)
It's because most have never been around people from Islamic cultures. They think all Muslims are like their token Muslim feminist friend when in reality Islam is a barbaric religion and most Muslims are not compatible with Western culture.

>>24532807
This

>>24533124
You're a disingenuous Muslim freak.
Pedo Mo didn't even know who was in the Trinity yet we are supposed to believe God himself revealed it to him.
Abrogations cannot be "explained" as their very existence in the book mean it's got parts that are WRONG and yet it is supposed to be eternal.
Fuck off

Bruv just listen to some surah on quran.com. It is beautiful.

>>24533867
>Qur'an doesn't know the trinity
strawman, debunked to death
>abrogation
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with abrogation if you have any capacity for logical thinking. how is having laws change according to the times and circumstance "wrong"? other religions do this all the time, but it's not God who's changing the laws, but they themselves or their jewish overlords

if you're christian, the whole OT is basically abrogated, haven't you considered that?

>>24533867
>>24534117
your question goes much deeper really, you can extend it to an existential question. If God controls and knows everything, and Why does God even bother bringing the world into perfection gradually rather than briging it into perfection from the very start? Christians are also not immune to this to this question. Why didn't the Crucifixion just happen before time? The answer is very simple. It is to *make certain things evident*.

>>24532999
Saudi Arabia is who keeps the petrodollar fiat currency from collapsing. They are the reason this pyramid scheme lasted this long. If OPEC stopped trading in dollars exclusively the US would collapse because it couldn't export it's inflation anymore. Saudi Arabia actually does something useful unlike Israel.

>>24534117
>deboooonked
>according to the times
You mean during the life of one single man?
Located in one small part of the world?
Focused entirely on the circumstances surrounding his life and desires as a warlord pedophile schizo?
>if you're christian
Newsflash, Abdul: I'm not
Your religion is backward barbarism that should be extinguished before it's too late

>>24529632 (OP)
Because the koran is an assault on christianity from page 2, and they are trying to seperate you from Christ and ultimately from God. Anything that throws a wrench into the gears is "beautiful". They don't want you to be muslim either, they just want to put wounds in your head, so they will spit on you when you pray or fast or say peace onto you brother, and they will try to put wounds on God but they cannot hurt God, they will burn in HELL until they accept the Lord God as their Saviour.

>>24529632 (OP)
I opened the Quran for the first time a while back and red some lines. Yeah, I was surprised to find a more cracked out version Shaggy 2 Dope: "everyone is secretly Muslim and knows it's true. If you think you don't... Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed."

I guess Islam's thing is a more angry version of Pascal's wager? Well I suppose my own, competing, faith has a less rageful version of this form of thinking so I don't judge too much per se. But it's not exactly beautiful either.

This thread has an abnormal amount of seething about leftists. You are all obsessed

>>24533124
Genuinely asking: how do you explain why the Quran praises Alexander the Great as a noble warrior for Allah when he was a well-known pagan who deified himself

>>24534218
The Qur'an is probably not refering to Alexander the Great. People think this because of Syriac romances featuring Alexander having parallels with the Qur'anic story. First of all, historical figures get conflated in romances with legendary or other historical figures all the time. Second, it is not known whether the romances came before or after the Qur'an. I believe the manuscripts exist in the medieval period, though I'm not sure

>>24534192
>Focused entirely on the circumstances surrounding his life and desires
There are many things that people who think Muhammad was a fraud can't explain, things that seem counter-productive for a fraud like the Prophet rejecting both the Jewish and Chrisian view of Jesus, rejecting the crucifixion when no one alive during that time believed it "merely appeared to happen" (something only dead sects at the time believed in), the Prophet advocating for free market economics, forbidding monopolies, forbidding price fixing, living an aesthetic lifestyle, praying nearly constantly in private, etc.

One could argue that Muhammad acted and decided things on a whim, but this is really just a suspicion and not a well thought out argument. What is well thought out though is the view that Islam *gradually* developed in a purposeful vision, one that had unyielding theological convictions and also convictions about how society should be organized.

The idea that Islam as a religion was just Muhammad's whims and desires doesn't really hold up to much scrutiny if you actually study the life of the Prophet, aside from all those "gotcha" stories zionists post

>>24534218
>>24534592
To explain more about Dhul-Qarnayn, I think him being supposedly Alexander the Great isn't really a big issue. What I think might be an issue is the question: "Where is the Wall?" This ties into who exactly Dhul-Qarnayn and Gog/Magog are.

We know Jews/Christians and early Muslim scholars considered Gog and Magog to be Japhetic, sort of like the Turks and Mongols, so the Great Wall of China could be a candidate, but that would make Dhul-Qarnayn Chinese, which would seem unlikely. And given how well Chinese records kept their history, I'm sure this wouldn't hold up well under scrutiny.

We could think that the Wall is supernatural or metaphysical, some even say Gog/Magog are extraterrestrial. Rene Guenon had this really esoteric interpretation, relating it to Confucian legend(?). But since there isn't any wall anywhere, and there probably isn't a secret ice wall in Antarctica, it's probably safe to say that the Wall in question is supernatural (keep in mind the Jinn built it), Gog and Magog being supernatural too. Thus this whole episode of the Qur'an lies outside of the field of history

>>24532926
>Arabic has more words for love than English
you can translate that. just in more words. there isn't really aux a thing as "untranslatable", what we mean when we say it can't be translated is that it can't be translated in a single word.

>>24534477
LMFAO. Is this a real comic?

>>24531230
pictures aren't allowed in Islam, your day is coming too, abu

you niggers only read the snippet from r/atheism & memri tv
sufi have all kind of schizo tier elder scroll bullshit interpretation of the koran

>>24531268
>It's not 'embracing Islam' -
Leftists do embrace Islam. That religion is so antithetical to their supposed values that anything beyond its total rejection signals an extreme degree of cognitive dissonance germane to things you love unconditionally.
>plenty of Western countries have higher carbon emissions per capita than India or China
The environment does not care about emissions per capita, just emissions.
"Climate change" is used as a cover to punish white countries by imposing draconian restrictions and humiliations upon them such as shutting down nuclear power plants and banning straws. Leftists will never pressure China or India.
>The complaints really signal the conditions under which the Right is willing to tolerate any kind of non-conservative movement and those conditions amount to being able to convert said movement into an attack against a perceived outgroup.
If I understand this spaghetti sentence correctly, all you are saying is that right wingers associate things they don't like with people they don't like, which is what every political group does ever.

>>24532926
The only words for love you need is Agape, Eros and Philia. That's it.

>>24529632 (OP)
>God is purposely making you disbelieve, but you'll still be punished
Unironically, understanding this part was a moment of epiphany for me. It gave me a whole new perspective on Islam and finally made sense of why it preaches what it does.
Hint: there's a clear difference between belief and guidance. Keep in mind that the real quote is "God guides whom He wills", not "makes disbelieve". That would be a breach of free will.

>>24532692
I read the Koran it was kind of a slog.
It's written like it's an old mans rambling recounting of bible stories, anecdotal stories from his life, and sets of rules he decided on because he decided on them.
Plus every few sentences it threatens the read with hell. Like holy fucking shit the Koran would be 25% of its total size of it didn't make THREATS every 5 lines.
Also it seems to think Alexander the Great was monotheist. Is that accurate?
And one line is like
>"well there could be other Korans who knows"
WTF is up with that?

>>24535887
No MFer I just read the fucking Koran it blatantly says "God makes people disbelieve". Nice the though.

>>24536481
>Nice the though

More westoid Islamaphobia as usual.
We could actually be your ally against the woke decay, but (You) would have to have moral standards and you don't want to give up your porn and rap music. That's more important then westerns civilization decay

>>24536481
>NOOOOOOOOOO TH-THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS BECAUSE... BECAUSE... BECAUSE I SAID SO!!

>>24529683
>>24531234
>>24531250
Western leftists don't like to criticize Islam because they perceive that it'll give ammunition to the Western right. That's the main reason even though Islamic revivalism is a direct reaction to the Enlightenment and Western influence of which the Western left is also a product. There's imperialism and colonialism as well going back to the British and French (and then the Americans and Israel), but there has been a tendency by these Islamic fundamentalist movements to reject everything Western for a VERY conservative ideology of purification and retrvn.

You do see some crazier, orientalist fetish stuff and dabbling with Islam going on too among leftists who are REALLY existentially bored about their lives, but that's a little more fringe. I don't think it's that common but there are people who were "communists" who then converted to Islam.

>>24532702
There is antisemitism on the left. It does exist and you can find it if you go looking for it. It might not be as apparent in the U.S. or Britain, but you do see that stuff in, I dunno, Argentina (not to pick on them) where you get Che Guevara fans who don't like the U.S. and Israel, and they have beliefs about Jews that are not far removed from the far right. The main driving force behind Palestine protests in Western countries is the MENA diaspora where antisemitism is pretty common. Then the left joins in with them.

There's another argument that you hear from Zionists that the fixation on Israel as a uniquely malevolent entity is antisemitic. Or people saying "Zionists" when they really just mean "Jews" or "the Jew." It's like an especially irrational but also pleasurable moral narrative that allows contradictory tendencies to unite. There's a (mostly Jewish) publication called Fathom Journal that practices a sort of critical theory about this and is aimed at the anti-Zionist left. This is a whole can of worms though:
https://fathomjournal.org/the-pleasures-of-antisemitism/

>>24529632 (OP)
>>24529642
>>24530335
>>24532692
>oy vey dont let the goyim read the Quran cause they wont think we are chosen anymore
kys jews please. no one loves you.

>>24536481
>nice try though

>>24534640
Would it not be more than a coincidence that this person in the Quran described has having 2 horns and locking away Gog/Magog is also exactly what the Alexander romances at the time were saying? I really can't understand who else this person could be