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Anonymous No.24697616 [Report] >>24697621 >>24697633 >>24697911 >>24697935 >>24697957 >>24697977 >>24698071 >>24698073 >>24699131 >>24699146 >>24699197 >>24699881 >>24700018 >>24700093 >>24700148 >>24700279 >>24700466 >>24700469 >>24700573 >>24701571 >>24701728 >>24701844 >>24702200 >>24702463 >>24704343 >>24705816 >>24708286 >>24708668 >>24710030 >>24712384 >>24713234 >>24714920 >>24715771
Is there any book/writing that ACTUALLY deals with the problem of evil?

Most apologetics online just go "free will" with no elaboration and that's it.
Anonymous No.24697621 [Report] >>24697664 >>24699019 >>24699927 >>24700466 >>24701346 >>24701448 >>24702182 >>24708114 >>24708147
>>24697616 (OP)
unironically book of the new sun. evil is necessary to push maximum moral development. not to really get into the philosophy of what exactly good or evil is in the presence or not of God, but at least in this book, it's a necessary substrate for evolution.
Anonymous No.24697633 [Report] >>24697664 >>24698281
>>24697616 (OP)
Oh no, the covid19 outbreak! The worst thing that could happen!
Anonymous No.24697664 [Report] >>24697934 >>24698117 >>24698281 >>24699019 >>24715771 >>24715829 >>24715833
>>24697633
i can't even imagine what living in your head must be like, where you can't comprehend even the slightest nuance, that is, something being bad, but not the worst thing to ever happen
it's like trying to imagine what it's like to be a dog, except i'm pretty sure even a dog would grasp this concept
>>24697621
>evil is necessary
can we ever call anything "necessary" when talking about an all-powerful being?
Anonymous No.24697911 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Heraclitus as well as Plato’s Phaedo have evil as a subsequent consequence of pleasure. The world exists as both beauty and discord in perfect opposition/ or alignment depending on how you look at it and pleasure and pain feed off one another.

Paraphrase: stupid was Homer when he said that it would be better for all strife to disappear
Anonymous No.24697934 [Report]
>>24697664
>i can't even imagine what living in your head must be like, where you can't comprehend even the slightest nuance, that is, something being bad, but not the worst thing to ever happen
That's what it's like talking to someone who can't understand the nuance of negative things happening within God's domain.
Anonymous No.24697935 [Report] >>24697951 >>24708031
>>24697616 (OP)
The Book of Job. God lays it all out in the whirlwind speech. Everything else is just mental gymnastics.
Anonymous No.24697942 [Report]
God can make a rock so heavy he cant lift it and still lift it and is immanent in the creation that cannot contain him but he cant solve evil nope sorry.
Anonymous No.24697951 [Report] >>24698056
>>24697935
>God lays it all out in the whirlwind speech
He did a piss poor job of it.
Anonymous No.24697957 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
good can't exist without evil, etc.
Anonymous No.24697977 [Report] >>24698077 >>24699884 >>24699967 >>24700545 >>24701156 >>24702132 >>24712260
>>24697616 (OP)
Evil doesn't exist. It's purely a social construct. Free will has been proven not to exist, both logically and empirically.
Anonymous No.24698056 [Report] >>24701233
>>24697951
I could explain, but that requires effort posting and I dont have the time now.
Anonymous No.24698071 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Free Will?
I don't even know him
Anonymous No.24698073 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
the problem of evil only exists on the presumption that a personal intelligent god exists and he is also omnibenevolent and omnipotent which not only no one outside of larpers takes seriously but its not even biblical.
Anonymous No.24698077 [Report] >>24699026
>>24697977
Neither does good
Anonymous No.24698079 [Report] >>24715771 >>24715829 >>24715833
There is nothing that can explain it. God didn't just create the universe, he created the rules. He could've created rules where just because there is no evil doesnt mean there is no balance, or good, or whatever other argumentative variable you want to put here. We can infer that paradoxes are only put in place because of him. He could solve them whenever he wants.

If he truly cant do that, and evil needs to exist for the world to function, then he is not all-powerful and because he stated he is all-powerful and knowingly lied, he is not all-good.
Anonymous No.24698104 [Report] >>24698109 >>24701392 >>24708033
Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?
Anonymous No.24698109 [Report]
>>24698104
>the UN hired a Christian fundie to be the Unity chaplain
Anonymous No.24698117 [Report] >>24702400 >>24708119
>>24697664
God may not be totally, absolutely omnipotent. He may be working within some limit. Not really a christian myself, but it is possible and valid. I think BOTNS comes to a similar conclusion although I'm not sure. What else can you make of all these covert machinations of powerful beings in conflict with each other?
Anonymous No.24698281 [Report] >>24704437
>>24697633
Lol
>>24697664
Fag.
Anonymous No.24699010 [Report] >>24708037
Engrams, body thetans, and implants. Admit you don't have a better explanation.
Anonymous No.24699019 [Report]
>>24697621
Fpbp
>>24697664
>can we ever call anything "necessary" when talking about an all-powerful being?
Yes, as He is free to build a world in which necessity constrains whatever he wishes it to.
Anonymous No.24699026 [Report] >>24699967
>>24698077
Right
Anonymous No.24699131 [Report] >>24699967
>>24697616 (OP)
evil is a subset of good.
Anonymous No.24699146 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Evil doesn't exist, there are just lesser and greater goods (we call lesser goods evil btw).
Anonymous No.24699197 [Report] >>24699930 >>24712258
>>24697616 (OP)
Mad made covid. God gives man free will because He loves us so :)
Anonymous No.24699881 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
I reject the premise that evil exists.
Anonymous No.24699884 [Report]
>>24697977
>Evil doesn't exist. It's purely a social construct.
Based and soience-pilled.
There's no evil. There's just a flow of particles/energy.
Anonymous No.24699927 [Report] >>24699963
>>24697621
Do you think that being raped as a child contributes to moral development?
Anonymous No.24699930 [Report]
>>24699197
Thanks be to God that I have the freedom to mangle your genitals with a razor blade. What a gift
Anonymous No.24699939 [Report] >>24699957 >>24702404
I'm an atheist but I never understood le problem of evil.
Why does god have an obligation to help us just because he can?
Anonymous No.24699957 [Report] >>24699972 >>24703675
>>24699939
It's tied up with the idea that God loves us. If you loved someone and they were being tortured in front of you and you had all the power to stop it but instead you just sat there and watched, that I think is the essence of the problem.

The only reasonable answer is that either God doesn't care about us or his ways are beyond our understanding. Either way the reality of evil and suffering makes the idea of an all good and loving God incompatible with the world as we experience it.

As a former Christian I can say that nobody in the history of Christendom or anywhere in the scriptures is there an answer to this issue because there is no answer. Or, rather, the answer is that we are not being told the full story and are playing without a full deck of cards. Anyways, when you're in your hour of darkness and call out to God to show you that he loves you and there is nothing but silence you will understand what it means to face the problem of evil
Anonymous No.24699963 [Report] >>24699983 >>24700289
>>24699927
we certainly exist in an era where most of society sees this as evil and this was not always the case. same thing with chattel slavery. these evils on a long enough time line ultimately serve the good of humanity, which is the point i was making. i'm not sure if you've read botns or not.
Anonymous No.24699967 [Report]
>>24697977
>>24699131
>>24699026
Refuted by Jung in Aion
Anonymous No.24699972 [Report] >>24700098 >>24700279
>>24699957
>when you're in your hour of darkness and call out to God to show you that he loves you and there is nothing but silence you will understand what it means to face the problem of evil
this is called 'the dark night of the soul'. either you come out of it a saint, or you come out of it insane.
Anonymous No.24699983 [Report] >>24700001 >>24700279 >>24700305
>>24699963
I've known too many people, myself included, whose lives have been irreversibly destroyed and permanently crippled by sexual abuse as children. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about and I hope you get falsely accused of paedophilia and stabbed to death with a screwdriver you cunt
Anonymous No.24700001 [Report] >>24700021
>>24699983
your trauma is something i wouldn't even begin to understand and it is tragic that you had to experience that. i pray that you overcome the damage as best you can and possibly one day use it as a source of strength to be a relatable support structure to other victims in need of healing.
Anonymous No.24700018 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Orthohoes and dostoslopsky
Anonymous No.24700021 [Report] >>24700062 >>24700279 >>24700305 >>24703680
>>24700001
It is not a source of strength. I live in spite of what happened to me. I survived it and I survived a lot more that came afterwards. And I did it myself because when the moment of truth came and I called to God and said "God I don't know what will become of me! God, I need you to tell me that you love me!" Nothing happened. And things got worse from then on. There was no redemption or salvation or hope. The only reason I'm still alive is because I did it my fucking self and I don't care what God's sick and twisted reasons are. He wasn't there. When it really mattered he wasn't there. And I came to realise that he never was
Anonymous No.24700062 [Report] >>24700071
>>24700021
if no one has ever told you this, let me be the first; you are incredibly strong and courageous and the fact that you've managed to regain order in your life makes you a beacon of hope to victims everywhere. have you ever attended support groups for this kind of thing? you could do some truly good work.
Anonymous No.24700071 [Report] >>24700248 >>24700279 >>24700305
>>24700062
I've never been to anything csa related but I will be attending a support group for young people with addictions next week (I'm addicted to alcohol and I'm going to help maintain my sobriety, today is day 17 being dry) and I've also done a little group therapy in the mental hospital a couple of times.
Anonymous No.24700093 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Good people return their shopping carts. Evil people don't. Simple as.
Anonymous No.24700098 [Report]
>>24699972
*either you come out of it a non-believer, or you come out of it insane.
Anonymous No.24700148 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
I like presuppositional apologetics because it pisses off atheists.
Anonymous No.24700248 [Report]
>>24700071
alcoholism is something, unfortunately, i am very familiar with. that is amazing to hear! the things i've noticed to really help are staying busy and avoiding the triggers surrounding the times when you'd want to drink, taking time to pray or meditate, 30 mins of working out or walking, occupying myself with little projects whether it be cooking, building something or creating something in a game, and then making my best effort to do something nice for someone each day.
Anonymous No.24700279 [Report] >>24700305 >>24700325
>>24697616 (OP)
>Evil is not merely an absence of something but an active force, a living, spiritual being that is perverted and that perverts others. It is a terrible reality, mysterious and frightening.
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6devil.htm
Catholics mostly believe in "privation theory of evil" which states that evil is the absence of some good. I think that's total hog and that evil be real, on purpose, and trying to make all creation have a bad time.
>>24699972
>this is called 'the dark night of the soul'. either you come out of it a saint, or you come out of it insane.
No. The "dark night of the soul" isn't asking God for love but recognizing that human's mental concepts are basically useless in understanding God's love.
>>24700071
>>24700021
>>24699983
FWIW trauma and theological error have the same impact on your psyche. If you forgive who did it to you and forgive them for what they did to you then you resolve the issue and healing begins quickly thereafter (shadow tremors persist but mental distortions evaporate relatively quickly).
>irreversibly
This is just the trauma talking. The point of sexual abuse is to basically give someone the sensation of either being permanently broken or permanently fractured so that the abuse can replicate itself via them. The point of this mental fracturing is so that you can make someone act good to someone who does evil to them and not recognize that it is evil. If you don't accept the conditioning of being broken (often tricking or shocking the victim into repressing the memory will permanently create a "trauma signature" such that they don't know they are being abused even after they have repressed it--the news does this with violent images so that your addiction to it is not viewed as trauma bonding but it is) then the second best thing is to make you enslaved to bitterness with a sense of "permanent violation" that can "never be undone." The basic fact is that the sex act stopped the second the sex act stopped; scars are not people and yes the body does remember the trauma but the key here is the devil wants you to conflate those scars with the person who did it and those same scars or wounds with not being able to be healed. Likely, the physical wounds are already gone and even if you have permanent markings they have factually no difference than scars from playing as a kid on the playground; the only difference is the symbolic value we give them because of the intent of the abuser. The basic truth is that all child sexual predators are morons. 1) It's not pleasurable (adult, female vagina is literally designed for the penis). 2) It's definitionally not sustainable. 3) It's wildly high risk. From a practical standpoint it's idiotic so what's left is just the dotards who reproduce their own trauma or low lifes who are so self-obsessed to pursue their own worthless fantasies. The point is to get you to lie to yourself about ultimately Jesus Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary via your body.
Anonymous No.24700289 [Report] >>24700305
>>24699963
Germans were always against child rape, Tacitus mentions them. Slavery was historically ones enemies.
Anonymous No.24700305 [Report] >>24700803 >>24713257
>>24700279
>>24699983
>>24700021
>>24700071
cont.
What this practically looks like is that you have demonic, or evil power, knowingly over anyone who has any of the following:
>unhealed trauma
>substantial theological error
>not forgiven people
>sizeable sexual sins
>other large sins such as theft
In Catholicism, a state of grace means the Holy Spirit indwells in your soul. What this means is that the pawns of the devil, cringe lords and otherwise, cannot trick you to subject you to evil. Ultimately, trauma is trying to say to you that this state of being is impossible because God gave you a "rape-able" body. This is a lie. The basic issue is not free will, but rather that those who do evil are as much victims as anyone who receives the evil, and in a moral sense, they are in a far worse situation and thus are almost the ultimate victims of themselves. In the final analysis, the devil is a fool and so are all of his minions. Jesus Christ is the Truth that repels this and no philosophy of free will or evil will change that. Ultimately, many people cannot say what evil is perfectly but I will tell you: Evil is parasitical contradiction. Two satanists go to see a mentor to (per Charles Williams) steal the Holy Grail or destroy it. One says it has so much power we must use it the other says its too powerful so we must destroy it. The mentor supports both of them because they disagree. The only goal of evil is to sadistically torture someone for all eternity in Hell and the reward for those you lie and harm enough is that you can rule over them in Hell if they fall too.
>>24700289
That anon is complaining about trauma culture. There are fair critiques of trauma culture but the main issue is that people who want to torture their abusers as vengeance by sending them to some dirty cell are often equally as deranged as the abusers themselves.
Anonymous No.24700325 [Report] >>24700487 >>24700803 >>24700814
>>24700279
I get what you are saying but you don't know the specifics of what happened to me. I was molested by my best friend when I was 12 because (and I am 100% convinced of this) that he was simply acting out something that had been done to him by an actual abuser. So I have never held any hard feelings against him and I have long since forgiven him for what he did (especially since I know for a fact that he got it much worse than what he did to me). So I don't feel like I'm the victim of an evil person but rather more a victim of the ugliness of the world. Regardless that one event had a devastating effect on me and my life. Because of the negative behaviours I developed as a result of it I was bullied and was effectively the most unpopular person in my school. I suffered suicidal ideation and hatred against everyone and everything since I was 12 years old. Then when I was 16, due to something related to the person who abused me I suffered a psychotic break and was actively psychotic for a year before being diagnosed with schizophrenia when I was 18. When I was 19 I was in the mental hospital for two weeks because I was suicidal because my voices were trying to get me to kill people. My dad died suddenly and for no real reason later that year. This past year ever since the love of my life left me I have had frequent psychosis and suicidal depression, worsened by alcoholism which I developed this past year as a negative coping mechanism. This is all on top of the fact that I nearly died several times as a small child and have never felt a part of all of this, this life.

Can you tell me what the reason is that I've had to suffer all my life? I asked God and he wasn't interested in sharing. He couldn't be bothered to let me know that he's with me in my suffering. If I'm not on my own then he's made me feel as if I am. I can't see the reason for it and I just refuse to accept it any longer.
Anonymous No.24700466 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
I find it interesting when people pretend that the problen of evil has been swept under the rug and is some huge gotcha, when even the Bible contains a whole book about it (Job).
>God gives the devil express permission to kill Job's family and servants, destroy all his property, and inflict him with the worst diseases possible without killing him.
>the majority of the book is poetry about the nature of earthly suffering, and how God's designs involve horrors and suffering beyond human comprehension with the ultimate goal to bring about eternal goodness and joy beyond comprehension.
Surely someone on a literature board can understand how suffering plays a natural role in the development of the story and characters, how when the author gives someone an illness or has then get robbed or something it isn't out of cruelty but rather to further the story and play a part in bringing about the author's ultimate design.
>>24697621
Based.
The Divine Comedy is also really good.
Anonymous No.24700469 [Report] >>24700803 >>24705774
>>24697616 (OP)
Camus deals with it perfectly in his novel The Plague. Anyone who believes evil and suffering are part of God's plan must be willing to walk into a children's cancer ward filled with dying children in extreme agony and smile, proclaiming this scene is God's will, and since God's will is ultimately good, the sick, suffering, dying children is actually a good thing and they, themselves, also will it to happen, they want it to happen, they are glad it is happening. This is the attitude you MUST adopt if you try to rehabilitate evil and suffering as actually a good and necessary thing. Most proponents don't really have that kind of conviction, which is good because it is also a kind of maximal moral relativism. Why punish evil people? God is supposedly planning an exactly proportional punishment in the final analysis, so there's no need for law or morals. Why abstain from doing evil yourself? After all, evil is part of God's plan for the world and it is a necessary part of the world, you are just contributing to that necessity. This is always the problem when you try to turn bad things into actually secretly good things, you have to adopt the viewpoint that evil is good, that instead of finding a silver lining, the whole rain cloud is silver. It's a sickness of the mind.
Anonymous No.24700487 [Report] >>24700511 >>24700803
>>24700325
>Can you tell me what the reason is that I've had to suffer all my life? I asked God and he wasn't interested in sharing. He couldn't be bothered to let me know that he's with me in my suffering. If I'm not on my own then he's made me feel as if I am. I can't see the reason for it and I just refuse to accept it any longer.
Why do you want to know? If a perfectly logical explanation for it was laid out infront of you would you accept it? Should God or the universe have consulted you on how you would suffer? Should God or the universe adhere to your judgment over theirs?
Anonymous No.24700511 [Report] >>24700532
>>24700487
>Should God or the universe have consulted you on how you would suffer?
NTA, but... uhh.... YES. Otherwise he is a sadistic sick fucker who enjoys putting people through utter torment and despair for his own pleasure.
Anonymous No.24700532 [Report] >>24700552 >>24700624 >>24708159
>>24700511
And who the fuck are you? Are you so wise that you can construct the universe and make it perfect? Are you so powerful that God will enter into a negotiation with you? Will he cede to your power and make this world and life painless for you? Can you comprehend what perfect and everlasting happiness is? What is the impact of this on others? Can your happiness exist without other people suffering?

No one really knows the true nature or will of God, but thinking he owes you or anyone else an answer is absurd.
Anonymous No.24700545 [Report]
>>24697977
Sure thing, Satan
Anonymous No.24700552 [Report] >>24700580
>>24700532
(NTA) If we are to God like an ant is to us, where we can't understand him or be sure about his motives toward us, then we should make like ants and treat him mainly as obstacle to be worked around rather than a perfectly good parent to be slavishly devoted to.
Anonymous No.24700573 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
A Machiavellian reading of Cornelius Van Til's "Defense Of The Faith". Evil is not only incoherent, but its quality of incoherence is a consequence of modern ideologies attempts to make natural law out of pure reason. Evil is a result of the secularism.
Anonymous No.24700580 [Report]
>>24700552
If youre a christcuck, this is a major problem and they have produced a massive amount of cope over centuries to get around it. Otherwise, you do you. Don't like what you have been through, shrug off God entirely and do what you can to make it through life. Personally, I believe in a God and I just don't bother asking him these things. I just completely surrender to his will and move on in life. No worship, prayers, or idols, just acceptance of his will.
Anonymous No.24700624 [Report] >>24700636
>>24700532
Every word you post drips with slave mentality. "How dare you question the master! How dare you try to think for yourself! Suffer and obey, SLAVE!" No one is convinced. Keep your mental illness to yourself.
Anonymous No.24700636 [Report] >>24700662 >>24701120
>>24700624
You're free to kill yourself anytime. Otherwise find a way to cope being gods bitch your entire life
Anonymous No.24700662 [Report] >>24700680 >>24700727
>>24700636
(NTA) The most sensible way to cope imo is to just not personify the universe (or the whatsit that is the source of the universe) so you don't have to engage in a weird BDSM kink with it.
Anonymous No.24700680 [Report] >>24701123
>>24700662
I understand taking the atheist perspective on this, up to a point. Just call the universe and not make it some big entity. However, not believing in any sort of higher power is something I dont understand. If we are the best thing this universe has spat out, thats a sad and pathetic thought
Anonymous No.24700727 [Report]
>>24700662
>The most sensible way to cope imo is to just not personify the universe
Yeah I don't really get why people, especially yahwehcels, are so hung up on God being friendly chungus. I get that it's a comfort thing, but life in our universe is quite indifferent (and that's ok)
Anonymous No.24700803 [Report] >>24700814 >>24701130 >>24702128 >>24702128 >>24708499
>>24700305
is not
>>24700487.
>>24700325
>Can you tell me what the reason is that I've had to suffer all my life?
Nope. Candidly, your case seems like a ton of demons. Look up "Lay deliverance prayers by Fr. Ripperger" or get the St. Michael App.
>being molested at 12
Very unfun
>Bad behavior
I mean assess how much you consented here but unless it's molesting other people it'a nbd
>bullied
Sucks of course, don't endorse and very bad
>alcoholic
Can happen if predisposed in your situation
>suicidal
Very in the cards and possible
>psych ward and voices
Demons alert full activate. You might have been cursed, victim of generational demons, and or something else. Your reaction, in my eyes, doesn't fit your situation per se (could be wrong) unless you were bullied for sexual misconduct at school then it makes sense almost but that leap to schizophrenia is demons imo. Ask Jesus to cover you in His Most Precious Blood and St. Mary Queen of Angels to protect you and guide you to safety. You can just half mentally say these prayers but will them and hopefully that helps.
>>24700469
>Christians believe kids with cancer is good
Sickness is caused by sin and as such is not good. God permits bads things because... oh wait... does Jesus promise an eternally happy afterlife despite and inspite of our sins?!?!?!? Wow. Those kids with cancer will surely just go right to Hell. Or. Huh, maybe they won't? What if God Himself will make it up to them?
>some theologian said unbaptized kids go to limbo hell nonsense
Lol not Jesus, not Church teaching, and not my belief
Anonymous No.24700814 [Report]
>>24700803
Obviously don't take this advice as replacing medical advice but supplementing but >>24700325 it doesn't seem enough to go to the psych ward without either biological underlying issues or demons. Could be wrong but just my read from knowing victims of CSA. You may want to ask too for God to reveal any repressed memories you have
Anonymous No.24701120 [Report] >>24701216
>>24700636
God doesn't exist, yet you are intent on imagining a cosmic daddy figure that you then get to be his bitch. Now there is an unpleasant glimpse into your psyche!
Anonymous No.24701123 [Report] >>24701216
>>24700680
Dude just straight up admits reality seems unpleasant so he is just going to make up something that makes him feel better. Wild that people just come out and say stuff like that.
Anonymous No.24701130 [Report] >>24701605
>>24700803
>Sickness is caused by sin and as such is not good. God permits bads things because... oh wait... does Jesus promise an eternally happy afterlife despite and inspite of our sins?!?!?!? Wow. Those kids with cancer will surely just go right to Hell. Or. Huh, maybe they won't? What if God Himself will make it up to them?
See how readily they admit it? The kids dying of cancer isn't that bad, in fact, they should die quicker so they get to heaven and enjoy their reward faster. This is the mind on religion.
Anonymous No.24701156 [Report] >>24701212 >>24701553
>>24697977
maybe evil is just the absence of good
Anonymous No.24701212 [Report]
>>24701156
Too subjective and prone to hypocrisy. You aren't capable of thinking about these things rationally. You need to be told what to think. If you feel otherwise then shut up and go back to your shitbox or objectively test this.
Anonymous No.24701216 [Report] >>24701222 >>24701317
>>24701120
>>24701123
>*burp* God doesn't exist Morty...we are all space dust and star farts....wubbuldubbuz
Anonymous No.24701222 [Report]
>>24701216
>you can't say god's fake because that's le cringe
Anonymous No.24701233 [Report] >>24701425
>>24698056
Happy Friday! How about now?
Anonymous No.24701317 [Report] >>24701399
>>24701216
>"God is real and, thankfully, I was born in exactly the right conditions to maximally benefit from this while the majority of the human race is led astray by false gods or atheism. This belief definitely has nothing to do with death anxiety or the childish wish to have a permanent father figure above me."
Anonymous No.24701333 [Report] >>24707953 >>24711201
>blaming God for something humans chose to do of their own free will
Anonymous No.24701346 [Report]
>>24697621
>but at least in this book, it's a necessary substrate for evolution
Alright you guys win, I'll read Wolfe.
Anonymous No.24701392 [Report]
>>24698104
Alfred E Neuman looking ahh nigga
Anonymous No.24701399 [Report]
>>24701317
>"God absolutely doesn't exist. Sure, the majority of the great minds throughout history determined that God was necessary, and organized their lives around contemplation and "becoming like on to God," from Plato to Avicenna, to Shankara, to Aristotle, to Aquinas, to Al Farabi, to Maximus the Confessor, etc. Sure, these were people who had mastered their appetites through ascetic labors and who were considered supremely wise and even saintly by both low born villagers and educated aristocrats, as well as their fellow contemplatives, and who were sought out for guidance. But I don't listen to any of these saints and sages. Instead, I listen to a bunch of empiricists with absolutely no claim to moral excellence nor any claim to having overcome the passions' and appetites' hold on reason. These guys they tell me that nothing is truly good or bad (so that everything I do is fine) and they also tell me that there is no God and that I never need to feel guilty about anything ever because it's all equally good (or not good). They also generally say that being a self-interested egoist is the best thing ever because it makes GDP go up so we can consoom more. But this choice is absolutely not because I feel guilty about my own vice and wasted potential, rather it is because I use the cold, hard, dispassionate reason of science, which I can achieve simply by reading majority opinions with absolutely no ascetic labors and spiritual exercises (despite every sage of East and West saying these are actually essential for unbiased reason). I am just being scientific by dogmatically holding to empiricism."

Arguments from psychoanalysis are incredibly easy.
Anonymous No.24701425 [Report] >>24701430 >>24703669
>>24701233
Sure. Thread is still up and Job is my favorite piece of literature so why not.

Job is widely misunderstood and the biggest reason for that is because confuse a narrative device for the core story. People focus on the bet between Yahweh and the Adversary and Yahweh giving Job back everything He took and more. Lost in all of this is that this story makes up three chapters of the forty two chapter book and was likely taken from another folk tale long before the bulk of the book.

The main portion of Job is a dialogue between Job and his accusers, as well as speeches from Elihu and the whirlwind. Not only is there no direct reference to the bet or any of Job's afflictions in these dialogues, the message seems to contradict the simple convenience of the narrative it lifts from.

We'll start with the dialogues beginning in Chapter 3. Job gives a speech that is something I always read when I am in my most depressed states. In it, Job expresses how miserable he is with incredible poetry. He is past wishing to simply die. He wishes that he never existed at all. He curses the day he was born and the night he was conceived.

From there, Job's accusers answer him. What ensues is a poetic rap battle between the accusers and Job countering them. They all discuss where wisdom can be found and that Yahweh would never punish the innocent. Job then professes his innocence and expresses his desire to put Yahweh on trial to answer for how he has punished him.

This goes on through a few cycles and as the speeches are culminating, the original text becomes damaged and it is unclear who is actually speaking. At Chapter 28, the KJV says Job is speaking, but most contemporary scholars agree that it is definitely not Job speaking and possibly a narrator or one of the accusers. This chapter is interesting because it comes off as something Yahweh would say, but is completely refuted in the whirlwind speech. Chapter 28 talks of how man has brought light to the world, upended mountains, claimed dominion over nature, and all precious things his eyes have seen, but wisdom is unknown to him. God grasps wisdom away from man and it cannot be bought for any amount of gold. It finishes with a simple message that is strange for Job 'Look, fear of the Master, that is wisdom, and the shunning of evil is insight'
Anonymous No.24701430 [Report] >>24701547 >>24708893
>>24701425
Pt 2

Now we come the whirlwind speech. Job finally gets his opportunity ask Yahweh to answer for his suffering; Job puts Yahweh on trial, but Yahweh flips this back on Job. Yahweh says he will answer Job's question, but first Job needs to answer his questions. For the next four chapter, Yahweh shows how ignorant Job is about creation and how powerless he is. Job cannot answer any questions about how the world was created, the weather works, or the nature of animals. Job knows he has no power over Leviathan or any other mystical beasts that Yahweh can make grovel at his feet. Job merely cowers and accepts Yahweh's power and judgment.

Its worth noting, Yahweh does not command Job to do anything in the speech, in fact he does the opposite. He asks Job a bunch of questions. These questions highlight Job ignorance of the world around him. Yahweh does this to answer Job's question of where wisdom is. Instead of grasping it away, wisdom exists right in front of Job and he cannot see it.

The whirlwind speech is there to demonstrate how ignorant man is of everything around him, yet he wants an explanation of something far more complex. If you can't understand how the weather works or why the eagle nests on a certain mountain, how the fuck are you going understand the problem of suffering? Job is put in his place. He realizes that the created has no control and cannot comprehend the will of the creator. Its not something he wants to hear, but then again Yahweh makes no demands of Job. He does not demand Job worship him or offer sacrifice.

This answer will piss off anyone who believes in a benevolent and omnipotent god, but that is a problem for christcucks. Yahweh doesn't need to explain shit and why should he? Do you need to explain to your dog why he needs to go to the vet? Can you even do that, would the dog understand? God does things his way, why does he need to consult his creations about what he is doing? If you have a problem with this, fine don't believe in God, what does he care?
Anonymous No.24701448 [Report] >>24701459
>>24697621
Real interesting suggestion, thanks anon might have to get into him now.
There’s an interesting strain of thought in the Christian mystic Jakob Boehme, also, suggesting he thought the Fall of Humanity, as in the Genesis myth, was a necessary stage of the universe, even perhaps ultimately for the best, as it necessitated God’s redemption of the universe and fallen humanity by the direct incarnation of God in humanity, and the ultimate redeemed stage perhaps being even greater than what we would’ve had without the Fall. A deepening of humanity’s consciousness, a more sophisticated psyche and soul having gone through this dialectic, choosing the Good over Evil out of actual freewill, not just because of a state of innocence and total unknowing or incapability of even the possibility of sin.
It is pretty heavyhanded that what causes the Fall is a fruit giving one “knowledge of good and evil”, suggesting that beforehand there was no knowledge of that, no distinction.
I myself prefer to see it more as cosmic allegory, similar to some other cosmogonies. In Taoist cosmogony, for example, the universe is in the state of Void, Wuji, before its splitting into opposites, Yin and Yang, negative and positive, with this then further giving birth to “the 10,000 things” (all manifested reality). The Kabbalah has the limitless Ein Sof at the beginning (lit. “Without End”, the Eternal), which emanates Ohr Ein Sof (the Light of Ein Sof), symbolically in Kether, the Crown of the Tree of Life, then splitting into the duality/opposites of Binah and Chokhmah, themselves further manifesting into the two pillars of the Tree of Life which also represent opposites (masculine and feminine, the pillars of mercy and severity), the Tree of Life itself representing the entire universe and all processes in it. Ein Sof is also often spoken of apophatically, through a theology of negation, hence again a similarity to this idea of the Void birthing all, with a split into duality, too.

I’m bloviating, but I think there’s an interestingly similar system here. Pre-creation is a state of Void, and to go from Void to the Created Universe requires this bifurcation into opposites. The “Fall” might just represent that the creation of the material universe, and consciousnesses embodied within it to experience that universe, requires this play of opposites. Going even before the Adam and Eve story to God creating the universe himself, you have the world being “Tohu wa-bohu” at start in Hebrew, “without form and void”, so some of these bits of the Kabbalah don’t just come from nowhere, and I think can shed light on some of Christian theology or mysticism inasmuch as the Torah is a shared source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tohu_wa-bohu
Anonymous No.24701459 [Report] >>24701571
>>24701448
Short follow-up, since another effort poster is talking about Job, whose posts I’ll read in more detail soon, but seeing the Book of Job jogged my memory:
The Book of Job also explicitly has God and Satan being in cahoots on something. So I again consider that God is beyond most lukewarm or normie believers’ conception of Him, God is what allows Satan, or evil, to exist, and perhaps even uses this evil (severity, harshness, suffering) as the other arm of His at times. Beyond good and evil.
Frightening, maybe, but not much more than totally atheistic, materialistic, annihilationistic nihilism just viewing us as random blips shat out by a strictly physical universe with no ultimate cosmic purpose to it all, no metaphysical guidelines or truths.
Anonymous No.24701547 [Report]
>>24701430
>These questions highlight Job ignorance of the world around him. Yahweh does this to answer Job's question of where wisdom is. Instead of grasping it away, wisdom exists right in front of Job and he cannot see it.

>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice. Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

>Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves. Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 1

One could as well apply this to today's empiricist, but perhaps also the nominalists who declared the univocity of being, and all those who proclaim that God is just one being among many, most powerful, but defined by what God is not. Yet God is not so, for He is "within everything, yet contained in nothing," and more inward to us than our innermost self. It is God in which we "live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28).
Anonymous No.24701553 [Report]
>>24701156
Thanks, Augustine.
Anonymous No.24701571 [Report] >>24701593 >>24708554
>>24701459
The classical view is of evil as privation. Evil is slide towards multiplicity, and eventually, nothingness. It is the curvetas in se, the soul's turning away from the true source of all goodness. On the classical view, good is just being qua desirable, and our difficulties spring from having the wrong loves. We love the unworthy more than the worthy, the ugly more than the truly beautiful. Love of finite things derails the erotic ascent upwards. The cosmos is a ladder leading back to God, all things moving in the cycle of exitus et reditus.

As Dante puts it to open the Paradiso:

The glory of Him who moveth everything
Doth penetrate the universe, and shine
In one part more and in another less.

However, suffering is not illusory. It is the real cost for a race that killed God. The goal is the the elimination of suffering (one must suffer to tame the passions and appetites and direct them upwards). We suffer gladly for others. Rather, suffering is transfigured, just as the body and bodily desires are not left behind, but transfigured a deified.

Also: >>24697616 (OP)
Pic related is a classic on suffering and evil, written by a man who had lost everything for doing the right thing and was nearing his grizzly execution.
Anonymous No.24701593 [Report] >>24708561
>>24701571
Or for a more practical, less theoretical look.

>The foul fiend whispered praise into the heart of an ascetic who was striving for blessed humility,
but by divine inspiration he contrived to conquer the guile of the spirits by a pious ruse. He rose and
wrote on the wall of his cell the names of the highest virtues in order, that is: perfect love, angelic
humility, pure prayer, inviolable chastity and others like these. And so when thoughts of vainglory
began to praise him, he said to them: ‘Let us go and be judged.’ Then, going to the wall, he read the
names and cried to himself: ‘When you possess all these, then you will know how far you still are from
God!’


As Saint Maximus says in the Centuries on Love:

>Nothing created by God is evil. It is not food that is evil but gluttony, not the begetting of children but unchastity, not material things but avarice, not glory but vainglory. It is only the misuse of things that is evil, not the things themselves.

Or as Saint Isaac of Nineveh puts it in the Ascetical Homilies:

The world" is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear.

Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead…. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are dead to it.

Or as Origen tells us in On Prayer:

>Good is one; many are the base. Truth is one; many are the false. True righteousness is one; many are the states
that act it as a part. God’s wisdom is one; many are the wisdoms of this age and of the rulers of this age which come to nought. The word of God is one, but many are the words alien to God.
Anonymous No.24701605 [Report]
>>24701130
>The kids dying of cancer isn't that bad
Did you die as a kid from cancer? Have you ever volunteered there?
Anonymous No.24701613 [Report] >>24708567
what if god made a contract with the devil so the devil gave us free will but it meant we could be evil and the devil is the ruler of the world and god has to watch and seethe but tries to steer his children the right way #hiddenhandinterview.........
Anonymous No.24701728 [Report] >>24702131
>>24697616 (OP)
don't be a cuck and picture God as a personality. God has divinely ordained the world. Sickness is a part of it. It's not a test, but you're no longer in Eden either, chud. This is the ground from which we were made and to which we will return. Such is life. The temporality of life in mortality--which takes many form, but is inherent to the body; not as a property, but as the body itself--is a prerequisite for any discovery, any knowledge of self. The knowledge of man is passing, both of him and from him.
God is neither aware nor unwilling. The question of the divine is simply wrong. It's a non-issue since God is only personal insofar as we imagine Him to be present. The world is His creation--to us! It's not His creation to Himself. God is not someone or something nor is He doing anything, to which end he would be able, knowing, or present. This knowledge, ability, or presence is our confrontation with God at any moment we imagine. Are you genuinely imagining a kingdom in heaven with a bearded old man sitting in a golden chair? Are you falling for Joseph's temptation, are you actually personalizing the Creator and His creation? The beginning, the way, and the end. That is God. This personal confrontation is important, but it is not defining. It's the pillar of your faith, but not faith in and of itself. We cannot know what comes after death. These are clear and logically more fundamental tenents than anything described by people in a people's story of how they were confronted with God. The scripture is not some holy axiom like in Islam. It's a guide, an introduction to the faith as it was lived by others, and most notable as it was lived by Jesus Christ. You can't play a numbers game with a story. You can't analyze the text for truths. Are you actually that infantile?
The whole epicurian dilemma is just for midwits and category wanking Gnostics.
Anonymous No.24701844 [Report] >>24708571
>>24697616 (OP)
We want it, we get it.
It's here because so many of us want it. We are here because we want to be.

Many of us want to solve evil without introducing certain elements (joy, honesty, violence) and thus we don't solve it. This inspires evolution and brings us to high difficulty.

However, evil is an ouroboros. It can prolong its life cycle with parasitism, and when it's grown to it's peak it can be mistaken for Demiurge.
Anonymous No.24702128 [Report] >>24702247
>>24700803
>Sickness is caused by sin and as such is not good.
Not biblical.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things" (KJV).
>>24700803
Who created demons?
Anonymous No.24702131 [Report]
>>24701728
>God is neither aware
So god is not all knowing then. Heresy.
Also, I thought jesus was god and human?
Anonymous No.24702132 [Report]
>>24697977
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I the Lord do all these things" (KJV).
Anonymous No.24702182 [Report] >>24716456
>>24697621
This world obviously doesn't maximise moral development.
Anonymous No.24702196 [Report] >>24702250
How can you have a consistent and coherent standard for evil within a secular paradigm
Anonymous No.24702200 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
>unaware but caused it
Anonymous No.24702247 [Report] >>24709010 >>24716383
>>24702128
>Not biblical

Yes it is, which is why it is and was the doctrine of all churches East and West for 1,500+ years. Pulling a *translation* out of context (where God is clearly saying He creates evil for wicked men, not evil per se) is not a good counter. No one thought God was evil until Calvin (who I am pretty sure was not confused and vice addled like Luther, but a full on Satan worshiper). No other Christians decided "the solution to the problem of evil is that God is evil, pure, inscrutable, arbitrary malevolence except for a random few he spares just to showcase his own demonic powers." Calvinism is hersey.
Anonymous No.24702250 [Report] >>24702383
>>24702196
I cognise the form of the good, no need for a God.
Anonymous No.24702383 [Report] >>24702441
>>24702250
I cognise it differently. I think it's moral to rape you. Is it?
Anonymous No.24702400 [Report] >>24702442
>>24698117
I agree. The idea that God is (and *must* be, that's the really annoying detail) beyond any even conceivable limitation is a ridiculous and juvenile concept. Being supreme doesn't mean you have no limitations, it just means you are in charge. You can have the most or even all of the power within a system, and still be limited by what the system itself is. There can be, and almost certainly *are* major and fundamental limitations inherent in reality itself, that are not controlled by man or God.

I honestly think that this autistic concept drives a lot of people away from religion, you'd have to be low IQ and/or really committed to ignoring the obvious issues with it for your religious view to be able to survive such a shaky foundation without making some sort of change. It's really quite simple- If God is perfect and completely, directly in charge with no limitations whatsoever, then the whole universe would be perfect without exception. If you disagree with the premise that the universe is perfect without exception, then there is something wrong in the preceding statements.
Anonymous No.24702404 [Report]
>>24699939
Only an atheist would be capable of this level of coldness and autism.
Anonymous No.24702441 [Report] >>24702558
>>24702383
Is it if God says so? With any theistic framework, that's even a form of moral realism, God's unchanging nature is basically the form of the good. The more you deviate from that, the more you have a form of subjectivism, just backed by extreme force.
Anonymous No.24702442 [Report] >>24702450 >>24711240
>>24702400
Where do those limitations come from? On the Christian view there was no other reality before God.
Anonymous No.24702443 [Report] >>24702451 >>24702464 >>24703039 >>24703240
I think a lot of you just aren't getting this-

A lot of religions assert that God allows reality to be an imperfect mess with some amount of evil (or if you reject the terminology- suffering, 'badness', etc.) because it's the only way to give humans the opportunity to strive to fulfillment, faith or wisdom through their own free will, which ultimately creates the highest good. I personally agree with this premise.

What you're failing to understand is that means that God couldn't or wouldn't just skip directly to the end result of the highest good without needing to first allow evil to exist. This showcases a limitation on either his power or willingness to exclusively do good- he created a structure that allows for the highest good, but he didn't do it without also allowing the existence of evil.

I really don't see this as causing an issue with anything more than this autistic model that some of you are defending, something has to explain the discrepancy. I personally go with a limitation on power, there are limitations in the structure of reality itself and there is some intrinsic reason why a painful process is required to bring us to the highest good, that not even God can circumvent. You should still rejoice in living in a world that is run by a God who is actively striving to bring about the highest good, it's just obviously not a fantasy world where it's possible to get there quickly and painlessly.

Pic related ends up accidentally making the point- Mummy really is dealing with limitations. You simply can't raise a child to be successful without discipline, and no one has the power to change that, whatever other power or benevolence they may have.
Anonymous No.24702450 [Report] >>24708122 >>24711240
>>24702442
This is the part where we have to accept the limits of our knowledge and terminology, we don't need a perfectly fleshed out explanation to be able to ascertain that there are limits. There's already such a strong willingness to say "God works in mysterious ways" to resolve screaming contradictions, it certainly should be applicable to things we genuinely just can't know about as well.

No one can ever really say what the inherent basis of reality is.
Anonymous No.24702451 [Report] >>24702454
>>24702443
I think the real problem with limitations coming from reality itself is, that those limitations exist outside of God and are probably prior to God.
If such a part of reality can exist, why can't the physical universe just exist?
All the arguments for God's existence assume that there was nothing except God at some point.
Anonymous No.24702454 [Report]
>>24702451
>All the arguments for God's existence assume that there was nothing except God at some point.
You're treating the limitations inherent to reality like they are a 'thing that exists', but they can just be a passive force, or even an absence of possibility. They could """exist""" in a universe where literally nothing exists.
Anonymous No.24702463 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
>atheist
>COVID
Go get another booster, hylic
Anonymous No.24702464 [Report]
>>24702443
I just noticed that whoever made that stupid meme apparently doesn't understand that BC dating counts down rather than up, it lists Baby Epicurus as living from "341-343 BC" ( so he's negative two years old).
Anonymous No.24702470 [Report]
Yeah it’s called Genealogy of Morality.
Anonymous No.24702558 [Report]
>>24702441
bingo
Anonymous No.24703039 [Report] >>24703267
>>24702443
>because it's the only way to give humans the opportunity to strive to fulfillment, faith or wisdom through their own free will, which ultimately creates the highest good. I personally agree with this premise.
Again, this doesn't work when children die agonizing deaths at a young age to things like bone cancer. No free will caused it, and it cuts short the ability for the children to grow up and exercise their own will. It's just pointless misery and then death.
Anonymous No.24703240 [Report] >>24703271 >>24703278
>>24702443
>be born in haiti
>die in a hurricane at age 13
>ah, but at least my classmates that made it can strive to uhhh not die in the next one??
Anonymous No.24703267 [Report] >>24703897
>>24703039
Interesting how you skipped all the points that we probably agree on and made a beeline to the one that can be a basis for the same cringey sort of argument you've had hundreds of times before.

Anyway, my response is that, if you accept my original premise, it can be explained as a natural result of allowing a system of the world largely being an uncontrolled mess, and choices having real consequences. The child did not make the choice, and the parent did not make a direct choice, but what happened is impacted by choices, even collectivized ones. We bred in a way that fostered or extinguished certain traits, we set up our societies in a way that made us more or less prepared to deal with medical conditions.

This is actually something I've been thinking over a lot lately- People forget that many of our choices effect our children, grandchildren, etc. a lot more than they effect us. We've forgotten it because we see freedom as existing to allow us to obtain pleasure, not to allow us to achieve self-actualization and benefit society as successfully as we can. That political discussion of freedom applies to the philosophical and religious discussion of free will as well- it wouldn't exist in any meaningful way if your choices couldn't have real consequences beyond yourself (positive or negative).
Anonymous No.24703271 [Report]
>>24703240
It's clear that you didn't read the whole post.
Anonymous No.24703274 [Report] >>24703300
Why cant people accept that suffering is beyond all human reason? Why does God need to explain himself? Shit happens and it doesnt matter if there is a reason for it or not, you still have to deal with it. Move on.
Anonymous No.24703278 [Report] >>24703296
>>24703240
Many of the greatest saints came from backgrounds of great suffering. What do they know that you don't?

>Get carried off into the arms of God
Yes, how awful. It's question begging to assume that death is an unmitigated evil.
Anonymous No.24703296 [Report] >>24703358
>>24703278
>heaven
Sure, but is this the soul building theodicy or the heaven theodicy? If it's so important to God that we become more virtuous or moral through suffering in this life, why do so many people die before they have the chance to do so?
Anonymous No.24703300 [Report] >>24703315
>>24703274
>Why does God need to explain himself? Shit happens and it doesnt matter if there is a reason for it or not, you still have to deal with it. Move on.
I can understand the sentiment but you have to understand that you are therefore dropping the premise of God being all-good (possibly even all-powerful too). You're talking about him like he's a stressed out boss who is just trying his best to stay afloat. I mean, I could see that, but that is completely against the premise we are talking about.
Anonymous No.24703315 [Report] >>24703333
>>24703300
>dropping the premise of God being all-good
This is something Christianity is particularly hung up about and doesn't seem to be a big issue for nearly all on incarnations of God or gods. I am not a Christian so its not my problem.
>You're talking about him like he's a stressed out boss who is just trying his best to stay afloat.
I guess thats a possible idea for God, but I just accept that he's unknowable. Maybe hes gassed, maybe he simply forgot about us, or this is his first time with creation and its not going as he planned. I dont know. God does his thing, I'll do mine.
Anonymous No.24703333 [Report] >>24703370
>>24703315
>This is something Christianity is particularly hung up about and doesn't seem to be a big issue for nearly all on incarnations of God or gods. I am not a Christian so its not my problem.
Then you agree with the main premise of the Epicurean Paradox: God can't be *all* powerful and *all* good in a world with evil.

The logical result of this is either tipping your fedora or coming up with a concept of God that doesn't include these traits (at least without some nuance).
Anonymous No.24703358 [Report]
>>24703296
Most cultures and civilizations are more beset by vice than lifted up by virtue. You could just as well ask: "why doesn't God take more people early so that they not have time to be educated into vice?"

But, if one appreciates the full freedom of man qua mankind, we can see that we have a real capacity to life each other up or drag each other down. Anyone who is a techno optimist, or even believes that a techno optimist future is *possible* will be forced to conclude that our struggles largely materialize from our own sinfulness. History is not the mere Hegelian providential unfolding of utopia, nor is it merely the container of a solipsistic proving ground where each individual makes their own individual choice for or against God. As Dante and Solovyov saw, history is a threshing floor where the good is sewn alongside the bad. Goodness grows up and is brought to the storehouse! falsity is exposed and burned away. History is no mere container. It has a telos, but it is one that lies above history. Because this telos has an infinite good as its point of rest, it is infinitely worthwhile to engage in the work of history, the uplifting of the human soul.

Second, we should not forget that it is not merely man that is in rebellion. The archons and principalities who rule this world are also in rebellion. Satan is the "prince of this world." Freedom was not granted to man alone. All of nature was subject to corruption and decay in the Fall, not as some sort of extrinsic punishment but as the consequence of creatures' rebellion against the creator. To assume that there is merely man and mechanistic nature is to shift over to an analysis in terms of an Enlightenment metaphysics that has already been proven incredibly flawed.
Anonymous No.24703370 [Report] >>24703468
>>24703333
Define good. Is it good that a child is run over by a drunk driver? No. Is it good that the child's parents work to enact safety measures and promote sober driving? Yes. Is it good that this may prevent future drunk driving incidents that would have caused immense suffering to other parents? Yes.

When people look at good vs evil, we have a tendency to put blinders on and only focus on one variable. Yes its terrible that a child dies, but what is the wider ramifications of that child's death? What if the killer becomes aware of the evil he has committed and turns to a life of purity that inspires others to act righteous? What if that child was going to grow up to be a piece of shit that would have inflicted suffering on others? There are too many variables to account for and any definition of good overly simplifies the intricacies of the real world.
Anonymous No.24703382 [Report] >>24703402
if man returned to monkee but also with perfect virtue and love for one another, he might still get sick, or deal with bad weather, etc., but suffering would be dramatically reduced and bearable, especially in the context of a deep spirituality. whatever remaining problems there were could conceivably be fixed by our own cleverness if we developed technology with an eye towards "what is truly best" instead of consooming. people wouldn't rut like animals and have kids they didn't want to raise, people wouldn't try to amass wealth and status out of proportion to their needs. they would want to educate one another, and would work cooperatively to further medicine and agriculture, etc., while also not raping nature to feed unrestrained appetites.

sin is the common denominator in our problems. whatever misfortune might remain stacked against man in a virtuous society of saints, it would certainly be far more bearable than our current hellscape.
Anonymous No.24703383 [Report]
Evil exists because it was necessary for me to exist. Evil can be stopped in the future though.
Anonymous No.24703402 [Report]
>>24703382
ultimately then, our example is the Theotokos, who through obedience and love gives birth to God, the very Logos, brining the infinite goodness of God into the immanence of our fallen world. she forms the very body of God who acts in the world, just as we are called on to become conformed to the Good and to give birth to the mystical Body of Christ, His Church and Bride, through our thoughts and deeds.

more honorable than the Cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim

:-)
Anonymous No.24703468 [Report] >>24703486
>>24703370
Look, that's an interesting discussion but it's not relevant to *this* discussion.

This particular view of God comes from a religion that already accepts that evil exists, so that point is stipulated to. The question is not over *how much* evil exists, any amount whatsoever (i.e. a literally perfect world minus one evil millisecond) would be enough to create a contradiction.

It would be one thing if the claim was "God is Omnipotent and Omni-okay," you'd be reasonable in trying to argue that the good equals or surpasses the evil, but the claim is that He is 100.00% good with no exceptions.
Anonymous No.24703486 [Report] >>24703673
>>24703468
>Look, that's an interesting discussion but it's not relevant to *this* discussion.
If we are keeping this discussion focused on Christianity, then I get your point. I still don't understand why Christians are so insistent that God and everything has to be good. Its like they are in flat out denial of what is clearly apparent before them.
Anonymous No.24703669 [Report] >>24703678
>>24701425
Bible isn't literature
Anonymous No.24703673 [Report]
>>24703486
>I still don't understand why Christians are so insistent that God and everything has to be good.
We're on the same page here. However, I think I understand it to some degree. The short answer is that they backed themselves into a corner with wishful thinking. The more complicated answer has to do with it being a simplified and neutered conception of God and the cosmos that was meant for the masses who weren't trusted with with the more complicated and fucked up model that addresses these concerns. Still, it's such a clearly wrong and incomplete conception that I genuinely think even low-IQ and 'unexamined' individuals struggle with accepting it to some degree, and Christianity has been perpetually unstable because of it.
Anonymous No.24703675 [Report] >>24703682
>>24699957
>Anyways, when you're in your hour of darkness and call out to God to show you that he loves you and there is nothing but silence you will understand what it means to face the problem of evil
Why would you have a hour of darkness lmfao? Born into a shit family that didn't leave you properties to rent out?
Anonymous No.24703678 [Report]
>>24703669
Lol, sure
Anonymous No.24703680 [Report]
>>24700021
Why didn't you just beat the faggot rapist up?
Anonymous No.24703682 [Report]
>>24703675
lmao
Anonymous No.24703897 [Report] >>24704062 >>24704108 >>24705462
>>24703267
Is your position literally that millions of children throughout history being killed by excruciating pain is just some kind of cosmic collateral damage from God to ensure other people get free will? That is so unbelievably dark that you must recognize that the being behind that which you propose has to be an absolute monster.
Anonymous No.24704062 [Report] >>24704176
>>24703897
Ok so let's say you have an ant farm. But for some reason, ants start mutilating each other and shitting on each other's heads and sticking microplastics up their asses.

How the fuck are you to blame?
Anonymous No.24704108 [Report] >>24704176
>>24703897
7% of all people who have ever existed currently exist right now. You don't have perspective you're just a midwit.
Anonymous No.24704176 [Report] >>24704257
>>24704062
Did I engineer the ants from scratch and set their behavior parameters? Then, yes, I would be responsible
>>24704108
Until the modern age, approximately 50% of infants died before the age of 5. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Anonymous No.24704257 [Report]
>>24704176
>infant mortality used to be high
No shit, midwit. 7% of all people who have ever existed are alive right now. We're new.
Anonymous No.24704343 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Take the open theism pill.
Anonymous No.24704349 [Report] >>24704357 >>24704454
Hey fellas you remember when the zionist government systematically shut down houses of organized religion as "unessential" while sending to police to arrest preachers? Because you literally cannot talk about this on social media.
Anonymous No.24704355 [Report]
Anonymous No.24704357 [Report] >>24704371
>>24704349
That was five years ago. And then they began disappearing people for protesting the zionist genocide of Muslims and Christians in the Holy Land. We can barely talk about it on this website.
Anonymous No.24704371 [Report] >>24704378 >>24704385
>>24704357
Do you remember when even more recently it was revealed that the President of the United States has been blackmailed with child rape by zionists in order to secure money, weapons, and support for their genocidal regime?
Anonymous No.24704378 [Report] >>24704383
>>24704371
Here is a Book which deals with the problem of evil. Not in a rhetorical sense, but literally mobilizes believers into physical armies to fight evil for God.
Anonymous No.24704383 [Report]
>>24704378

When you struggle for God, Jihad, who is your enemy?

When you are aligned with God, your enemy is literally those aligned with Satan.

Pretty clear and direct. Struggle for God, who is good, against Satan, who is evil.
Anonymous No.24704385 [Report] >>24704488 >>24707237
>>24704371
If there were incriminating evidence against Trump contained within the Epstein files the Biden administration would have leaked it. Also, it's gross/pathetic that you've bought into using the plight of sex trafficking victims because you have TDS.
Anonymous No.24704437 [Report] >>24710113
>>24698281
clearly you're closer to dog
Anonymous No.24704454 [Report]
>>24704349
nope literally never heard of it
Anonymous No.24704488 [Report]
>>24704385
Cope
sloppy joe is in the pedo file too btw
Anonymous No.24705462 [Report] >>24705562 >>24707166 >>24708933 >>24711279
>>24703897
Here's the idea I am putting out there:

God is inherently good and has set up everything with the long-term goal of maximizing good in the universe, and He has all the power that any entity can have, *HOWEVER* there are certain limits on what even the most powerful entity in the world can do. For instance:

>He is not "beyond logic" (that's just ridiculous wordsalad and goes to undermine the core of any philosophically-grounded religious view)
>Free will is inherently necessary for enacting the highest good, He can't get around this.
>At a personal level- I believe there is probably some inherent force requiring the existence of entropy and scarcity, even if it exists within limits or can eventually be abolished in the long run.

Accepting these precepts, it is possible that God really is utilizing all his power to push the universe towards the maximum good, and this really is the best that it can possibly be at this point in point in time, as fucked up as things are.


It's up to you whether this contradicts the claim that he is "all-powerful, it comes down to semantics (I'd say it doesn't, He has 'all' the power that actually exists, but lacks power that does not exist).

>Is your position literally that millions of children throughout history being killed by excruciating pain is just some kind of cosmic collateral damage from God to ensure other people get free will?
Literally, yes, it is. I'm not completely convinced of this at a personal level, but this makes internal sense to me and I think I'm on the general right path with this model.

It goes beyond religion, by the way. You can apply this form of thinking to things like politics- The best possible government that can actually be enacted may still have to end up with blood on its hands. If this is true, it would be wrong to push against this reality and try to enact a government that doesn't end up with blood on its hands, because it would have to be a worse government, by definition.
Anonymous No.24705562 [Report] >>24707166 >>24708136 >>24708965
>>24705462
NTA but I've been lurking this thread and this pretty much sums up my worldview. God is inherently good but he's bound by the free will He gave us, and in a way He's not all-knowing.
Anonymous No.24705728 [Report] >>24708183
Has anyone in this thread read Answer to Job by Jung? He says God is the collective unconscious who is unaware of its own omnipotence. Thought it was a pretty interesting take.
Anonymous No.24705774 [Report] >>24707196 >>24707199 >>24708133
>>24700469
>You have to relish in others' suffering because some perverted Godless frog twisted the message of The Bible with sophistry and ill-will to the point where it might as well be a completely strange philosophy
If you want to criticize the moral system or indeed any other aspect of Christianity, do so within its own paradigm and read the Church Fathers to find contradictions or absurdities, do not run to bitter secular malcontents. He's a self-proclaimed absurdist for crying out loud.
Anonymous No.24705816 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
E: Superposition of aware-unawareness+unaware-awareness; godforce innately stopped it via obligate geometric law, (species survived trial by being strong enough to survive)

Imagine athiests/agnostics actually believing covid-19 qualifies as argumentative material. As if a bunch of monkeys breathing their revolting, fecal matter infused moist toxins too close to one another could ever be the fault of a God level entity. God, I fucking hate having to come on here and course correct you divine sparkblind tards, haha
Anonymous No.24707166 [Report]
>>24705462
>>24705562
I just can't get around the fact that the physical parameters we are set up within are just unbelievably cruel, unfair and in many cases totally random. You have to be willing to believe that "God", however you imagine him, came up with, from scratch, the process of evolution through death and destruction, decided to include as the basis of reality the following: predation, natural disasters, disease, famine, genetic deformities, and on and on and on, just so he could say "now you have the freedom to navigate this, but even then you might get randomly crushed by something that is an act of no one's will". It's just silliness, massively wasteful and inhumane, and essentially incoherent to me.

What we are confronted with, by every aspect, appears to be a reality that simply does not care about us or our well being or the fact that we are conscious and feel pain and misery deeply. The only form of "good" that can be said to exist is that which human beings create for one another. There is no use looking to nature or the heavens, since these are, in every instance, devoid of sentiment towards us. Human solidarity is the only possible source for such things.
Anonymous No.24707168 [Report]
Anonymous No.24707196 [Report]
>>24705774
Is God's will the highest good? Answer must be yes.
Should you allign your will to God's? The answer should be yes.
Is it part of God's will that children suffer and die? Answer must be yes.

Therefore you must will those children to suffer and die if you believe in such a God. Simple logic.
Anonymous No.24707199 [Report] >>24707518 >>24707991 >>24707997
>>24705774
Is God's will the highest good? Answer must be yes.
Should you allign your will to God's? The answer must be yes.
Is it part of God's will that children suffer and die? Answer must be yes.

Therefore you must will those children to suffer and die if you believe in such a God. Simple logic. If you do not like that outcome, you must reject the Christian God.
Anonymous No.24707237 [Report]
>>24704385
Then surely since he has nothing to hide he can release the files...
Anonymous No.24707326 [Report] >>24708130
Quoting Eric Perl
>To explain evil, to attribute a cause to it, would necessarily be to explain it away, to deny that evil is genuinely evil at all. For to explain something is to show how it is in some way good. Only by not explaining evil, by insisting rather on its radical causelessness, its unintelligibility, can we take evil seriously as evil. This is why most “theodicies” fail precisely insofar as they succeed. To the extent that they satisfactorily account for or make sense of evil, they tacitly or expressly deny that it is evil and show that it is in fact good.
Evil is so confounding because it makes no sense, so stop trying to make sense of it. Setting aside apologetics, if your a believer struggling with this, trying to square it with God is not the answer. What is the answer? idk.
Anonymous No.24707518 [Report] >>24707745 >>24707751
>>24707199
the third part of your premise is bogus, but even if granted, in the Christian paradigm those children may suffer temporally with justice and salvation being served.
>simple logic
tell me again how atheists ground logic in a Godless universe?
Anonymous No.24707745 [Report] >>24707991 >>24707997
>>24707518
It is absolutely incoherent to suggest a supreme being who is responsible for reality and then suppose that reality does not follow his will. You undermine the very concept of "God" to suggest such a thing.

Also, if the children suffer temporally while their reward is great, as I said before, you should will it to happen since it is a net positive for them. Do you not will justice and salvation? To affirm my original point, you should then will their glorious suffering as compounding their reward in death.

Adding "God" does nothing to ground logic. Either logic is sound in its own right or it is not.
Anonymous No.24707751 [Report]
>>24707518
To explain evil, to attribute a cause to it, would necessarily be to explain it away, to deny that evil is genuinely evil at all. For to explain something is to show how it is in some way good. Only by not explaining evil, by insisting rather on its radical causelessness, its unintelligibility, can we take evil seriously as evil. This is why most “theodicies” fail precisely insofar as they succeed. To the extent that they satisfactorily account for or make sense of evil, they tacitly or expressly deny that it is evil and show that it is in fact good.
Anonymous No.24707953 [Report]
>>24701333
>Free will
No, the problem of evil involves natural evil like picrel as well l. Try reading this and staying glib.
Anonymous No.24707991 [Report]
>>24707199
Yea, again, here is another example of satanic lies and inversion. You think others can tell, but we can. However I'll focus less on what makes you satanic and more on what makes you a retard
>Should you allign[sic] your will to God's? The answer must be yes.
Not in all ways, which is clear if you read Scripture. God is the only judge. He wills to judge. Ought I will to judge as well? Scriptures say no. Find better tricks you filthy retard snake.
>>24707745
>Adding "God" does nothing to ground logic.
Whoa there. How is that so? Is grounding not necessary at all? Because if you're that retarded we can just leave it there. But if it is, why does God to nothing to do that?
>Either logic is sound in its own right or it is not.
Is it or is it not? How do you know either way?
Anonymous No.24707997 [Report] >>24708889
>>24707199
Yea, again, here is another example of satanic lies and inversion. You think others can't tell, but we can. However I'll focus less on what makes you satanic and more on what makes you a retard
>Should you allign[sic] your will to God's? The answer must be yes.
Not in all ways, which is clear if you read Scripture. God is the only judge. He wills to judge. Ought I will to judge as well? Scriptures say no. Find better tricks you filthy retard snake.
>>24707745
>Adding "God" does nothing to ground logic.
Whoa there. How is that so? Is grounding not necessary at all? Because if you're that retarded we can just leave it there. But if it is, why do you claim God does nothing to do that?
>Either logic is sound in its own right or it is not.
Is it or is it not? How do you know either way?
Anonymous No.24708031 [Report] >>24708847
>>24697935
That wasn't god's idea, it was his adversaries idea, so your argument is that satan is better than god because he actually tries to help people improve themselves with trials by fire.
Anonymous No.24708033 [Report]
>>24698104
That is like asking why a beautiful person would want a mirror.
Anonymous No.24708037 [Report]
>>24699010
Those don't explain why evil exists in the first place, they only demonstrate how misery loves company and why evil spreads.
Anonymous No.24708046 [Report] >>24708123
Evil doesn't have ontological status
Anonymous No.24708114 [Report]
>>24697621
>evil is necessary to push maximum moral development.
This still don't silve the big problem, why god created a world where máximum moral development can only be attained trought evil and suffering?
Anonymous No.24708119 [Report]
>>24698117
Then who put those limits? What entity or force established them? Wathever it Is Is above god
Anonymous No.24708122 [Report]
>>24702450
>This is the part where we have to accept the limits of our knowledge and terminology
EXACTLY, so you just pretty much recognize that you can't solve the problem of evil
Anonymous No.24708123 [Report] >>24708196
>>24708046
Prove it
Anonymous No.24708130 [Report] >>24709089
>>24707326
>For to explain something is to show how it is in some way good.
This Is a non-sequitor, explaining something don't imply that is somewhat good
Anonymous No.24708133 [Report] >>24708151
>>24705774
>to criticize the moral system or indeed any other aspect of Christianity, do so within its own paradigm
Not at all,moral systems must be by deffinition universal, if not i shouldn't be a able to morally condem a pedophile or a serial killer, and you also would end up in circular reasoning
Anonymous No.24708136 [Report]
>>24705562
You're a deist then, pretty much a buddhist ir a saliste,you don't actually believe in god, but in metaphysical rules that lead to happines if followed but by necessity can be ignored and lead you to suffering
Anonymous No.24708138 [Report]
Evil is just our starting point, it's where we all originated from. The foot of the mountain that we've been climbing for all this time.
How could we claim to have become good if we weren't evil to begin with?
Anonymous No.24708146 [Report]
On Evil by Terry Eagleton
Anonymous No.24708147 [Report]
>>24697621
>Suffering builds character
lol.
Anonymous No.24708151 [Report] >>24708467
>>24708133
You misunderstand. The moral system is indeed universal, but it's the one given by God. As such, you don't get to mix in arbitrary opinions such as "all type of killing is bad" as a quick example, which is not said in Scripture, to then show the failing of the moral system. What you do is you take it as a whole.
>if not i shouldn't be a able to morally condem a pedophile or a serial killer
Correct. But note also that you have no grounds to do that without God, other than arbitrary personal preference
>and you also would end up in circular reasoning
every worldview is self referencing
Anonymous No.24708159 [Report] >>24708207
>>24700532
A demon who creates a world full of slaves is a God to them.
Anonymous No.24708183 [Report]
>>24705728
Yes. It's good.
Anonymous No.24708196 [Report] >>24708447
>>24708123
>prove that a hole isn't a thing
yea i'm on it give me 5 minutes
Anonymous No.24708207 [Report] >>24708275
>>24708159
>well ackshually God is le bad
Profound. Earth shattering. Wow. Truly the heavens quake at such inversions.
Anonymous No.24708275 [Report] >>24708292 >>24708469
>>24708207
God is good is God. Now kill the Amalek children by smashing their heads on rocks.
Anonymous No.24708286 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
>problem of evil

Oh I am laffin
Anonymous No.24708292 [Report]
>>24708275
What's the criteria by which you determine that is morally wrong?
Anonymous No.24708300 [Report] >>24708623 >>24708769 >>24709010
>Evil Exists
>NO
Anonymous No.24708447 [Report] >>24708456 >>24708458
>>24708196
But a hole Is a thing, you can prove the existence of a hole
Anonymous No.24708456 [Report] >>24708478
>>24708447
>he presupposes time and space
>he presupposes the one and the many
Anonymous No.24708458 [Report] >>24708472
>>24708447
A hole is by definition a lack of a thing. It's like the first thing they teach you in philosophy.
Anonymous No.24708467 [Report] >>24708495
>>24708151
>The moral system is indeed universal, but it's the one given by God
No, because the moral system it's an apriori in the argument, you can't ask me to accept that morality comes from god, that's a petitió principii fallacy, morality as a universal must be contrasted with Christian morality to establish if god can exist, if you Backtrack into yourown Paradigm you're not proving the universality and existence of god, which is the whole point if the problem of evil

>killing is bad
The problem Is not that the bible has fucked up moments, the problem Is why there's evil if there's a creator god who's benevolente and omnipotent
>also that you have no grounds to do that without God
Morality Is universal, i don't need god ti establish moral conceptos
>every worldview is self referencing
That's relativism and pretty much destroy any attenpt to establish your religión as universal or valid, you're turning christianity into a social construct
Anonymous No.24708469 [Report]
>>24708275
A gardener tells you to uproot a tree he planted. Is the gardener evil?
Anonymous No.24708472 [Report] >>24708588
>>24708458
No,a hole Is the lack of a material thing, the hole Is still a thing as phenomena
Anonymous No.24708478 [Report]
>>24708456
He write as he type those word ay a precise moment in a specific place
Anonymous No.24708480 [Report]
test
Anonymous No.24708495 [Report] >>24708531
>>24708467
You accuse me of circular reasoning and begging the question, while claiming moral systems are a priori? One has to wonder if you're trolling.
I suppose I'm curious, first of all, how you have access to universal claims at all. Secondly, what's the "universal morality" that you contrast to Christian morality; where it derives from, how you know it etc.
>why there's evil if there's a creator god who's benevolente and omnipotent
Again, within our paradigm, that's explained easily. Because of the fall. To test us. You can't accept all evil-adjacent notions but the 2 I've just mentioned. You also can't impose your secular notions of benevolence on God. You might claim "providing constant pleasure and eradicating all suffering" is benevolence- that's not the case.
>Morality Is universal
Fine assertion, but that's what's in question. I believe it is because God made it so. Why do you?
>That's relativism
Hardly. You might not know what you're talking about. It's not destructive to Theism or any other paradigm, because what you look for is not lack of circularity, but coherence, consistency and explanatory power. You can not find me one worldview that doesn't reference itself.
Anonymous No.24708499 [Report]
>>24700803
>St. Mary Queen of heaven
Aka ishtar, pagan reprobate
Anonymous No.24708531 [Report] >>24708581
>>24708495
>moral systems are a priori?
An apriori for the argument, there's no circular reasoning there, even you have to admit morality must exist to establish a Christian moral system
>universal morality
Morality as an universal Is not the same as universal morality, if your moral system for example fall into a contradictión, a benevolent creator created evil, then you can say it's faulty
>. To test us.
An omnicient being doesn't need to test anything, an omnipotent being doesn't need to used test to establish virtue or free Will on His creation
>providing constant pleasure and eradicating all suffering" is benevolence- that's not the case.
Prove it, there's no argument there, only a axióm of your worldview
>Why do you?
I don't need to, morality could be self suficient, you're the one establishing a cause, so the burden of proof Is on you
>coherence
You can't have coherence if you use your own arguments to defend your arguments, it's like saying that the proof that god exist Is in the bible and the bible Is the truth because it was Made by god, no coherente only dogma and circular reasoning
Anonymous No.24708554 [Report]
>>24701571
>the true source of all goodness
This "true" "goodness" allows satan to rule this world.
>one must suffer to tame the passions and appetites and direct them upwards
Absolutely no, one must gain self control.
Anonymous No.24708561 [Report]
>>24701593
>not the begetting of children
Only the wild beasts ruled by their flesh believe that bringing innocent souls into this infernal place is good thing
Anonymous No.24708567 [Report]
>>24701613
>free will
Not real, retardo-kun.
Your will is primarily ruled by genetics, environment, parenting and since we are in /x/-files thread add entities influencing you.
Anonymous No.24708571 [Report]
>>24701844
>We want it, we get it.
It's here because so many of us want it. We are here because we want to be.
A low iq cope and new age drmonic lies
Anonymous No.24708581 [Report] >>24708651 >>24709281
>>24708531
>even you have to admit morality must exist to establish a Christian moral system
Sure I do, but it's all neatly explained within my worldview. I've asked a few times in my post how you account for morality, how you know what's moral, where morality comes from- you seem to have sidestepped all of those questions with weird and pointless instances of rephrasing what was already said. So I ask again,
How do you know morality exists?
How do you know what is moral?
How do you know that morality is universal?
>an omnipotent being doesn't need to used test to establish virtue or free Will on His creation
Rephrase that please and I'll respond.
>Prove it, there's no argument there, only a axióm of your worldview
Prove what? I'm presenting different ways in which benevolence can be interpreted, to show that yours is just as unjustifiable and baseless as any I could come up with. The burden would be on you to prove that benevolence and the existence of evil are completely incompatible.
>I don't need to, morality could be self suficient
lmao
>proof that god exist Is in the bible and the bible Is the truth because it was Made by god, no coherente only dogma and circular reasoning
Is this your first day discussing philosophy? Empiricism is dogma too, dummy. You rely on sense data to show that sense data is reliable. I ask again:
Produce one worldview that is not circular or self referencing.
Anonymous No.24708583 [Report]
>We want it, we get it.
>It's here because so many of us want it. >We are here because we want to be.
A low iq cope and new age demonic lies.
No one would willingly consent to all this meaningless suffering and misery.
Anonymous No.24708588 [Report]
>>24708472
Behold phenomena, a thing.
Anonymous No.24708623 [Report]
>>24708300
Yes it does, checkmate
Anonymous No.24708651 [Report] >>24708666
>>24708581
>it's all neatly explained within my worldview.
No Is not, hence the problem of evil
>So I ask again

All those question a are irrelevant, because the question Is not if morality exist, but why god Let suffering exist, relative interpretations of morality are besides the point
>presenting different ways in which benevolence can be interpreted
You actually didn't, you just say that god can be evil because he's god and it's cool when he does it
>lmao
Not an argument
>Empiricism is dogma too, dummy.
I think this Is your first day discussing philosophy,i never defended empiricism, but the fact that you have to rely on relativism to defend a universality religión Is pretty telling on how del Christian arguments are defending their morality
Anonymous No.24708666 [Report] >>24709013 >>24709260
>>24708651
>no you
>refuses to elaborate on any of his absurd claims
>no you didn't
Although no one is shocked that the atheist is incapable of defending any position of his. You're a compete clown
>All those question a are irrelevant, because the question Is not if morality exist
>When you said that morality as a universal must be contrasted with Christian morality
You're an idiot. Get lost
Anonymous No.24708668 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
>Christcucks
Their beliefs were hopeless from the start. They unironically believe that their god is a Mary Sue, all-powerful and all-loving, while living in a non-utopian world. Even kids can tell such reasoning is bullshit.
Anonymous No.24708769 [Report]
>>24708300
Epicurus was a faggot couldn’t even eat food without pain. Leibniz obliterated him and the only way out is to presume god can do illogical things which is generally not accepted anywhere but atheist blogs coping
Anonymous No.24708847 [Report]
>>24708031
Definitely never read the book, probably didn't even finish reading my post
Anonymous No.24708889 [Report] >>24708925
>>24707997
>Ought I will to judge as well?
His will is not for you to judge, its for him to judge, therefore if you refrain from judging you ARE aligning your will with his. Is this an "example of satanic lies and inversion" by you by claiming scripture tells you that you should go against God's will? Or is this what happens when you ground your logic in "God", I.E. you use motivated reasoning which corrupts logic?
Anonymous No.24708893 [Report] >>24709043
>>24701430
>cannot comprehend the will of the creator.
Its clearly not benevolent.
Anonymous No.24708925 [Report] >>24708961
>>24708889
Oh. So then I don't have to will the children to suffer either, since He doesn't will me to will it.
Congratulations, you've discovered analogies.
Anonymous No.24708933 [Report] >>24708942
>>24705462
>God is inherently good
So why he allows satan and his forces to rule the world and cause untold amount of suffering and misery, maybe because he simply isn't good?
Anonymous No.24708942 [Report] >>24708970 >>24709011
>>24708933
What's your standard for good that dictates what should be allowed to exist? Seems to me like the arbiter of good has a better idea of what's good than you
Anonymous No.24708961 [Report] >>24708975
>>24708925
>He doesn't will me to will it.
And what makes you say that? His will is that he judges and you don't. His will is that the children with bone cancer suffer and die. Therefore you should also will all of those to happen. It's very simple, and you are only bending yourself into mental pretzels because you know there is no way to rehabilitate this kind of "God".
Anonymous No.24708965 [Report]
>>24705562
If i have free will, in that case why i am forced to exist and be part of this nightmare?
Anonymous No.24708970 [Report] >>24708981
>>24708942
You are just beginning with the presupposition that God is good, and you just stick with that even when it is shown to be literally impossible. You aren't being honest with yourself, anon.
Anonymous No.24708975 [Report] >>24709669
>>24708961
You've been refuted brother, come up with a different argument. I won't be restating my position at your restated position
Anonymous No.24708981 [Report] >>24709676
>>24708970
Gonna answer my question?
Anonymous No.24709010 [Report] >>24709082
>>24708300
>>24702247
>(where God is clearly saying He creates evil for wicked men, not evil per se)
how is that clear?
Here's the entirety of Isaiah 45, show me where he specifies he only "creates evil for evil men"
Moreover, even according to you, god still creates evil ,just not all of it.
Anonymous No.24709011 [Report]
>>24708942
Enjoy burning in hell in that case.
Anonymous No.24709013 [Report] >>24709028
>>24708666
Im not gonna defend. Aposition i don't need to defend, indont need to defend the existence of morality because the Christian also needs morality for His argument, and i don't need to defend the existence of a diferent morality from christianity because the opposite argument already establish morality as relative so other forms of morality are implied
I didn't make any claim about morality un general, just that the Christian morality Is contradictory since allows the most benevolent being to harm humans and makebthem suffer, and saying that suffering could be benevolentnis first a contradictión in terms and second ignores the problem of omnipotency, if god Is omnipotent he could fullfil our lives without suffering
I don't need other moral systems to point out the contradictión and hypocrecy in that
Anonymous No.24709028 [Report] >>24709144 >>24709257
>>24709013
>Im not gonna defend
>i don't need to defend 3 times
so fuck off then
Anonymous No.24709032 [Report]
the illiad
Anonymous No.24709043 [Report] >>24709052
>>24708893
So? The Book of Job is antagonist to this idea and it's only a problem if you're a Christian. God can do what he wants and I dont think the creation can really go telling the creator what's right and what's wrong
Anonymous No.24709052 [Report] >>24709055
>>24709043
>appeal to authority
Fallacies are not arguements
Anonymous No.24709055 [Report] >>24709092
>>24709052
Are you fucking dense lad? Im not appealing to the authority of God for what is right or wrong. I can make my own decisions about that and God can too. I don't bitch at him for his choices and he doesn't bitch at me for mine.
Anonymous No.24709082 [Report] >>24716383
>>24709010
because you don't seem to understand the context of this passage. Isaiah is speaking to the persian king, cyrus, chosen to deliver the israelites out of baylonian captivity. also, the word evil can be translated to calamity or adversity, if that helps. cyrus, not even a believer in God, is being anointed as the one to free the israelites through his "evil" conquests; evil here, ultimately serving God's plan. you can't just read bible verses in a vacuum, you need to see what they refer or connect to.
Anonymous No.24709089 [Report] >>24709254
>>24708130
NTA, but I'm assuming that he's talking about Being being convertible with Truth (being convertible with the Good, i.e. the transcendentals). So anything that can be explained (given some intelligible truth) has some degree of being, and hence some degree of good, which is impossible if evil is a privation of good.
Anonymous No.24709092 [Report]
>>24709055
>whining about someone whining
>lad
Why do you need to be such whigger?
Anonymous No.24709144 [Report] >>24709154
>>24709028
You think i need to defend the existence of morality? From whom? Every christcucks must admit the existence of morality for their religión to make sense
Anonymous No.24709154 [Report] >>24709251
>>24709144
you're out of your element
Anonymous No.24709251 [Report] >>24709362
>>24709154
You're out of arguments
Anonymous No.24709254 [Report]
>>24709089
Yeah but that's not self-evident, so still a non-sequitor
Anonymous No.24709257 [Report] >>24709362
>>24709028
Funny how you just ignore why such defenses are not necessary
Anonymous No.24709260 [Report] >>24709362
>>24708666
You mad
Anonymous No.24709281 [Report] >>24709362
>>24708581
>presenting different ways in which benevolence can be interpreted
Your notion of benevolente requieres said benevolence to be a contradiction in terms, good and evil end up being the same thing and cancel each other, nothing Is really good becauseut comes from a god that established evil as good, and nothing Is really evil because to god that's also good,morality Is impossible ontologically and a empty, shallow concept gnoseologically
Anonymous No.24709362 [Report] >>24709590
>>24709251
>>24709257
>>24709260
>>24709281
clearly I'm the one who's mad
Anonymous No.24709590 [Report]
>>24709362
So that's your final answers,that's why christcucks can't solve the problem of evil
Anonymous No.24709669 [Report] >>24710807
>>24708975
You didn't refute anything since even you admit that God's will is not for you to judge, and your whole "refutation" rests on the idea that conforming your will to God's would entail you judging. You completely missed the mark my man, and worse you can't even comprehend how badly you missed.
Anonymous No.24709676 [Report] >>24711116
>>24708981
Experience carries an intrinsic element of good or bad. It exists as a character of the sense data itself. That's the only basis that can possibly be legitimate, and some dictate from an imagined authority who's authority is only ever conveyed through human representatives is less than worthless.
Anonymous No.24710030 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
this pissed off everyone.
Anonymous No.24710113 [Report]
>>24704437
UHOH! Better go get your booster for that scary virus that totally didn't leak from a lab and was worth shutting down the world (and civil liberties) because it was so dangerous!
Anonymous No.24710807 [Report] >>24711116 >>24712226
>>24709669
Yes, so there are instances where God's will does not have to align with human's will. It applies to judging but you arbitrarily decide it doesn't have to allow to permit suffering? Also how does a human will to permit suffering? Which is another satanic trick you tried to pull but I figured correcting only one of your premises was enough.
>Experience carries an intrinsic element of good or bad.
That is so ridiculous. So I can assert, same as you did, that within my experience there is no evil?
More importantly where in sense data is evil? Or ethics in general? You have no idea what you're talking about, I wish atheists would open a book before arrogantly barging in spouting ridiculous assertions
Anonymous No.24711116 [Report]
>>24710807
>>24709676
Anonymous No.24711201 [Report]
>>24701333
>eternal damnation because you were made susceptible to doubt and that includes the devices through which god made himself known
Anonymous No.24711240 [Report]
>>24702442
>>24702450
There's pride (sin) in either view
>we can't hope to understand God fully thus we're correct in resorting to mysteries in the face of contradiction, because our fundamental God-affirming views must be absolutely correct!
>our fundamental understanding of God is incorrect because we need to resort to mysteries to make coherent sense of somethings, therefore our fundamental understanding must be wrong!
Anonymous No.24711279 [Report]
>>24705462
>He is not "beyond logic"
then how come logic comes to a halt whenever one is faced with a contradiction in god and resorts instead to "mysteries"? either that would imply that god is beyond logic, or that our understanding of him is flawed, nullifying dogma.
>Free will is inherently necessary for enacting the highest good, He can't get around this.
>>Is your position literally that millions of children throughout history being killed by excruciating pain is just some kind of cosmic collateral damage from God to ensure other people get free will?
>Literally, yes, it is
so your view is that of the primacy of precedence, where those who came before had more free will than those who came later because there were fewer choices impacting the formers' lives; meaning that the "blessing" bestowed upon us is diminishing and is thus counterproductive to achieve the "highest good", unless the "highest good" is in opposition to free will, in which case why give it to us at all. a being aware of entropy and scarcity and yet adamant of creating us in this environment must be a terrible, bored one, not all loving.
Anonymous No.24711888 [Report]
Plato's Gorgias and Republic and Book X of Laws
Plotinus On Providence; and Against the Gnostics
Proclus Ten Problems Concerning Providence; and On the Existence of Evil.

Any theology where an omniscient God creates from nothing collapses into double predestination, it's impossible not to.
Before freely willing to create, their God knew infinite possible worlds where everyone chose every choice, therefore there must be a possible world of his omniscience where nobody willed mortal sins—and thus where no one is damned or killed by a feral African archaic hominid on the train—and "God" freely chose to not create that world.
Anonymous No.24712226 [Report] >>24712293
>>24710807
(1):God's will is for him to judge and for you not to judge
You align your will to his by not judging but by letting him judge, and be glad of it
(2):God's will is to have children be born with incurable cancer and die of agony
If you are a Christian, you have to align your will to that as well and be glad of it.

What are you not understanding here?

Next, ethics and morality are a framework within which to ensure fairness, maximize positive outcomes, and encourage buy in from participants. In fact, this negotiated process is the only thing that can possibly be called morals or ethics, since a system founded on some central authority is no longer about morals or ethics, but purely about the obedience of a slave. I am saying you embody the slave mentality, you refuse to think through anything for yourself and instead rely on servile obedience to authority. You are even brainwashed to view any challenge to that authority as "satanic" and thus you strengthen your own chains. Sad.
Anonymous No.24712258 [Report]
>>24699197
>Mad made covid
Assuming you typoed "man", you are very wrong.
Anonymous No.24712260 [Report]
>>24697977
>Evil doesn't exist. It's purely a social construct.
You aren't making sense. Social constructs exist. Therefore evil does.
Anonymous No.24712293 [Report] >>24712907 >>24713345 >>24715017
>>24712226
>(1):God's will is for him to judge and for you not to judge
All good so far
>(2):God's will is to have children be born with incurable cancer and die of agony
That is not God's will, that's a cause of the fallen state of the world. But since you can say that it's God's will to allow to world to operate within this fallen state-, God's will is explicitly for us NOT to will suffering onto others. I've said this two posts ago and you've yet to address it.
>Next, ethics and morality are a framework within which to ensure fairness, maximize positive outcomes, and encourage buy in from participants
These absurdities betray your never having read the most fundamental notions of ethics.
>to ensure fairness
Hopefully you can see how this is a modern notion which for the most of history has never been thought of as serious. Surely you agree that up until not even a couple hundred years ago people thought slavery and serfdom were moral, disregarding "fairness".
>maximize positive outcomes
What are the positive outcomes you have in mind? Economic progress? To the detriment of spiritual? Societal? Infrastructural?
>encourage buy in from participants
This might be the most ridiculous of your assertions. EVERYBODY agrees that it's moral to remove from society at least some type of people. Whether it is migrants, extremists, most notably criminals.
But you can feel free to disregard any of those criticisms, because, and I sincerely ask you to answer to this question
>you refuse to think through anything for yourself and instead rely on servile obedience to authority
Have you ever in your life stopped to wonder, not what fairness, positive outcomes, truly mean, but instead why ought one consider those things good- and then, why should people want to do good? Why your position on morality is more valid than a destructive person's? Because it leads to a better society? Within an atheist's paradigm, why OUGHT someone want that? Because it ensures a more comfortable life? What if someone prefers a short, uncomfortable life, full of decadent pleasure, rather than a long, comfortable, healthy life?
There are examples of people in history and indeed today who laugh at your notions of "good", and they're just as right to say that one ought to sacrifice people on top of pyramids as you are to say that one should pay his or her taxes.
Anonymous No.24712384 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
>Tfw God coughed on you and gave you **CAN I GET A WITNESS HOLY GHOST POWER!**
Anonymous No.24712774 [Report]
Job
Anonymous No.24712907 [Report] >>24713024 >>24713306
>>24712293
Your version of theology is literally meme tier
Anonymous No.24713024 [Report] >>24713044
>>24712907
This happens to the best of us to be fair . . . Though, God is more needfully resolute than this. He clearly isn't decieving Himself. Like, God forbid he makes us poor little things and has 'somewhat against us.'---Those I personally love--like a smitten fool--I have some things against them.--And we figure these out, and get on with it.--And it's better this way. We aren't dumb senseless automatons with no will, guise, cause, or sense of purpose whatsoever.
Anonymous No.24713044 [Report] >>24713152
>>24713024
It's just too obvious though. This view of God is like somebody's bumbling fool of an uncle who can't get anything right. To borrow a phrase, "this 'fallen world' does not belong on the resume of a supreme being". If you're willing to believe God is all good and all powerful, but his greatest achievement is to create a world that directly went to shit and has persisted as shit for all of time, you lack basic self awareness. No serious person can hold this belief, it's just too patently ridiculous.
Anonymous No.24713152 [Report] >>24713157 >>24713226
>>24713044
You're bumbling uncle is charmed and beautiful. You are not. I'm with God's sense, and though we may think it curious---how could *this* be perfect? . . . Yet I'm no cynic. I know the creation is good, plain good. You wonder about how a good God only musters that 'fallen-world.' Yet, it's in your forgetting of sense,--which if something is lacking therein it's surely not good--it's sense that avails God and His rightful claim to His good creation . . . "Felix Culpa." It's a fall that seems not indicative of a perfect God . . . But it's a '*happy* fall.' And if you haven't sensed this, you're lying. You're a man with sense, made that way. We've lived and learned, God--who is good--was much obliged to have us learn in accord with our free wills, left to our devices to assent, dissent,--fail, succeed,--learn.
Anonymous No.24713157 [Report]
>>24713152
*Your*--sorry.
Anonymous No.24713226 [Report] >>24713345 >>24714138
>>24713152
You prove my point again. You can't fathom that the world is actually that bad, in fact, to you, it's pretty good, happy even. Thus, you must walk into that children's ward and right there among the dying children proclaim this philosophy. But you won't. You wouldn't have the gall. You have enough shame about you to know this would never fly, but this all-too-successfully undermines your worldview so you must manufacture a form of cognitive dissonance which allows you to hold both in your mind at once. God is perfect, therefore this fallen world can't be that bad. But the world is fallen and that is so horrific that it means children are shown a glimpse of life and then cruelly tortured and finally denied that life. Until you break through this contradiction, you will continue to sound like a fool.
Anonymous No.24713234 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Dhammapada
Anonymous No.24713257 [Report]
>>24700305
>people who want to torture their abusers as vengeance by sending them to some dirty cell are often equally as deranged as the abusers themselves
Wanting your abuser to be brought to justice is "deranged"? Is this the end level of christ cuckery?
Anonymous No.24713306 [Report]
>>24712907
?? I was criticizing naturalism, barely said anything about religion. Post your memes though, have a party
Anonymous No.24713345 [Report] >>24714008
>>24713226
my brother you have no account for bad. within your worldview you cant explain why children dying is bad. it's all laid out here >>24712293 this is the devastating argument for the atheist and It's always sidestepped, never answered, the atheist would rather default to muh skydaddy muh zombie Jesus and other absurdities rather than engage with a new idea
Anonymous No.24714008 [Report] >>24714073 >>24714885
>>24713345
Bro's only argument is "you don't actually know kids dying in agony of incurable disease is bad or not". Wild. Is this what passes for a good argument in theist circles?
Anonymous No.24714073 [Report] >>24714516
>>24714008
Yes, you can't make baseless assertions and never attempt to justify your presuppositions in debates.
Begone zoomer, open up a book
Anonymous No.24714138 [Report] >>24714516
>>24713226
You die and go to Jesus. There are worse things. But because our lives are in the image of Jesus who is *life,* we can't just throw ours away, even our mortal-fallen ones. That said, you die . . . we're blest, we have Heaven which is where our Saviour is. --- Life has suffering, you're hung up on that. Much of that suffering hasn't to do with God's 'faults,' rather ours.
Anonymous No.24714516 [Report] >>24714564 >>24715285
>>24714073
Being against child suffering and death is just a "baseless assertion" and a "presupposition" lol. Is this what Christianity does to the mind? You wouldn't know this was bad unless your imaginary friend in the sky told you?
>>24714138
You must realize that this glorifies death, right? You are laying out the exact criteria of a death cult, this life is a miserable trial to be endured and gotten through until we reach the real fruit of existence, death. That is the essence of the denial of life. It is to devalue life, to admit you actually envy the dead children, since they get to go to Jesus quicker! Absolutely sickening.
Anonymous No.24714564 [Report] >>24714669
>>24714516
>Being against child suffering and death is just a "baseless assertion" and a "presupposition"
Close. The assertion is that "child suffering is bad" and the presupposition is that any type of human life has intrinsic value. You'll learn those words some day.
Back to the point, for most of history not everybody believed those things, Mesoamerican tribes even sacrificed children, that is of course until "Christianity did something to their mind" and they stopped. Seems like they didn't know it was bad until they heard the Gospel.

Hopefully you'll stop embarrassing yourself you fucking retard
Anonymous No.24714669 [Report] >>24714741
>>24714564
Christianity is literally a cult of approved human sacrifice, retard. To be a Christian is to accept the benefits of a human sacrifice.

Human compassion has deeper roots than one random tribe of cultists from 2000 years ago. We know that suffering is bad when we experience it, and we can extrapolate that it is bad when other experience it.

The only one embarrassing themselves here is you, defending a tradition of human sacrifice which glorifies death and suffering. Christians persist, even to this day, in mutilating the genitals of their new born baby boys. Only through religion could you convince a parent to slash away at their child's genitals.
Anonymous No.24714741 [Report] >>24714806
>>24714669
>Christianity is literally a cult of approved human sacrifice, retard. To be a Christian is to accept the benefits of a human sacrifice.
I thought you were only retarded but obviously the case is that you're a dishonest sniveling clown as well. Go ahead and equate Christ's sacrifice to the sacrifice of children atop of pyramids, with the high priest eating their hearts. Can't wait for you to call the Eucharist cannibalism as well.
>Human compassion has deeper roots than one random tribe of cultists
May be so, you fucking retard, but the things that evoke compassion and the way it manifests and the cases in which it is appropriate for it to be shown are completely dependent on time and society.
>We know that suffering is bad when we experience it
You're a complete retard and I tell you now that this is the last reply you get from me before you find a way to prove you've attended a philosophy 101 class. Do you understand that I can just assert "We know that God exists because we experience Him"? That people do that all the time? That it's a meaningless claim to show the truth of the matter?
That there are thousands of years of philosophical debate regarding this subject and to simply assert this shows how much of a clueless idiot you are?
>and we can extrapolate that it is bad when other experience it
Baseless claim. But even if I were to grant it, why should I not maximize my pleasure to the detriment of others'?
>Christians persist, even to this day, in mutilating the genitals of their new born baby boys.
Not Christian doctrine, it's a cultural practice that is not common anywhere in Europe, for example. There are plenty atheists who circumcise their children. But you're a complete retard buffoon so you wouldn't dare attempt think past your first impulses.
Anonymous No.24714763 [Report]
I heard Orthodox priests talking about how Christianity is non-dualist because all the suffering and evil that Christians say takes place due to temptation of the Devil and demonic influence only happens because God has allowed it. They gave an image of God having angels in his right hand and demons in his left and using both to influence humanity.

So according to priests in the Orthodox church, God is ultimately responsible for all the bad things that happen in the world and therefore is ultimately to blame
Anonymous No.24714806 [Report]
>>24714741
You are so childish it's actually comical. You have no defense for the human sacrifice of Jesus, even though the central foundation of Christianity is taking the fruits of that sacrifice. The whole notion of Christianity is a continuation of the scapegoat mechanism, cast your sins on another living being and then kill it to wash yourself clean. It's vile in the extreme but since it's the water you swim in, you think it's normal. Gross.
>We know that God exists because we experience Him
You don't know the difference between sense and sense data. I bet you do experience your imaginary friend, but is it reasonable to infer that he exists as anything other than as an illusion? Tons of people experience illusory gods, therefore you can't infer the reality of god from that. You can conclude the reality of suffering though, it's very simple, even a child like you should be able to comprehend the difference.
>Baseless claim. But even if I were to grant it, why should I not maximize my pleasure to the detriment of others'?
You clearly have no understanding of Descartes or how inference works. You can be certain of the sense data you experience, but everything beyond that has to be inferred to a higher or lower degree of certainty. This is what actual philosophy is called. Next, caring about others and integrating into a community is literally how you maximize your own pleasure across the span of your whole life. It's like you haven't spent even a second thinking about these topics and just spout the first uninformed nonsense that comes into your head.
>Not Christian doctrine, it's a cultural practice that is not common anywhere in Europe
Over half of Christians worldwide mutilate their baby boys' genitals as an explicit directive of Christianity. Your coping and seething over this manifest fact is quite hilarious.
Anonymous No.24714823 [Report] >>24714962
there was ritualistic animal sacrifice prior to Christ and that's what His sacrifice is meant to replace. you saying "living being" instead of "human" is an admission of idiocy you thought would go unnoticed.
no, you can't infer God from sensing Him (and that was clearly my point as well), in the same way that you can't claim suffering exists because you claim it. you say you can conclude it but you don't even attempt show how ahahahahhaha
>descartes
>doesn't know about the demon of all things
pathetic
a lot of Christians doing something does not mean it's Christian doctrine
Oh! My pearls...
Anonymous No.24714885 [Report] >>24714916
>>24714008
>wont honestly engage with the problem
you’re lazy. you just want an ego boost by attacking a position you’ve been misled to believe is easy to defeat. the second anyone poses anything difficult back at you, you’d rather not think about it. it’s sad that atheism has arrived at this, it’s a truly dead philosophical model in modernity because of it. you terminated the investigation when it became uncomfortable for materialism and now nobody gives a shit and zoomers are looking for stuff which can make their moral views consistent. if only atheists had bothered doing the work to construct that, you wouldn’t have this problem. but you’d all rather poke and stab rather than build anything coherent
Anonymous No.24714916 [Report] >>24715017
>>24714885
I've already addressed this topic in this thread. Morals and ethics are a negotiated framework in order to live in groups and to maximize positive outcomes for all, to ensure fairness, and to encourage buy-in. Compassion and human solidarity are built into us while also serving a role in game theory. To replace this humanitarian endeavor with a divine dictate is to annihilate morality and replace it with the blind obedience of a slave. As anons in this thread have already stated, kids die and go to heaven, so actually, under the Christian worldview, dead children is a blessing from the Lord since he gathers their souls to him and allows them to skip this veil of tears, this trial in a fallen world. Remember, the core of religion is eschatology, the seething rage against reality and against life, the yearning for death and destruction to overtake the world and to be whisked away to a magic theme park in the clouds. You can see it plainly in every advocate for the theistic position, they desperately want to do away with society, with ethics, with medicine, with philosophy, with the human struggle, they want only to be able to refer these problems upward to divine daddy to sort it all out for them. The theist position is the most disgusting and misanthropic view it is possible to hold.
Anonymous No.24714920 [Report]
>>24697616 (OP)
Gnostic literature and 'antinomian' kabbalah.
Anonymous No.24714962 [Report]
>>24714823
KEK, you didn't reply directly to my post because you claimed in the previous post it was your last but you're seething too much not to continue replying. You can't even remain consistent with what you, yourself, are saying. You're a riot, anon, haha.

Suffering exists because I have direct access to it. Suffering IS the experience. You can't claim God exists in the same way, because all you'd be able to say is you have some experience of God, which is something actual schizos can say about the voices in their head.

And to top it off, you finish with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy when literally the majority of Christians commit a horrendous crime against their own infants as a direct result of their Christian belief. Keep going anon, I'm laughing my ass off over here, you are great comedy!
Anonymous No.24715014 [Report] >>24715041
>suffering exists because i have direct access to it
>if i died suffering no longer would exist
Anonymous No.24715017 [Report] >>24715056
>>24714916
but those things were all questioned here >>24712293 and you didn't address any of the critiques?
Anonymous No.24715041 [Report] >>24715233
>>24715014
Are you the "last reply, I swear" anon? Death ends all positive experience too, which I am quite fond of and in my own life outweighs the suffering. I know this may be alien to the theist, but I wish to minimize suffering and maximize eudaimonia, but that can only happen while a person is alive.
Anonymous No.24715056 [Report] >>24715233
>>24715017
That anon believes that God is a supreme being of ultimate goodness, but somehow created a fallen world filled with suffering and premature death. Somehow he is the architect of all reality, but then reality diverged from his will... somehow and someway from outside of his will. That anon's entire worldview and critiques flow from dishonesty. Remember, the goal of morality and ethics is to produce the best possible outcomes among groups according to a certain goal. Now, a secular framework takes into account the balance of individual rights and group responsibilities to create the best circumstances for each person to pursue their own desired outcomes while safeguarding, as far as possible, the interference of one person against another person's interest. This is the core and root of real morality, the use of reason to place justifiable limits and responsibilites on each member of the group in order to foster synergy so that each member benefits from group membership even while accepting certain restrictions on his total freedom. To enter this discussion and then to simply assert that you have an imaginary friend who endorses a set of morals you subjectively chose is infantile and immediately removes you from serious discussion. Hope that clears things up for you!
Anonymous No.24715233 [Report] >>24715497
>>24715041
right, but you were debating the truth of the matter, not your perception
>>24715056
you should be able to defend your position without attacking another one.
what was asked was to define best and good and benefit, and to give account for that, and you failed
Anonymous No.24715285 [Report] >>24715501 >>24716869
>>24714516
*Glorifies death? . . . No, --- glorifies life, and the next life Jesus gives us. I explained how death isn't something we expedite to see Jesus quicker. That is necrophilic life hating behaviour. I will glorify Jesus Christ's death, and those who die remembering and entrusting themselves to Christ's cross of redemption. But if Jesus is life, --- and God forbid we meet our end --- our death is in light of Christ's life and is in the name of life. I explained this . . . --- could've explained clearer, but you're still hard-headed. That's total rigid-schlerotic thinking, just itching to refute me; "sickening." No, life is never devalued when I look to the life after the grave, it's just the fact that should allow you, as it does me, to take heart.
Anonymous No.24715286 [Report]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il6Ivu67b3s
Anonymous No.24715497 [Report]
>>24715233
You have to build towards truth on sound foundations. Jumping straight to your preferred conclusion and then buttressing it with an imaginary friend is less than worthless. Also, I just outlined the difference between a secular framework, which takes into account the value of freedom and the ability for each person to pursue what they find meaningful within the limits of interfering with other people's goal in order to build a synergistic society which benefits all. Your failure to understand is what you are getting stuck on.
Anonymous No.24715501 [Report] >>24716843 >>24716869
>>24715285
If you view this world as a fallen corrupt world, and the next world as a wonderful and divine and pure world, how is it that you don't want to leave the worse world and enter the better world as quickly as possible? The whole paradigm is quite simple, death is the best thing to happen to a Christian under the Christian worldview. What could be better than being gathered to the arms of Jesus? It is a necessary consequence of this type of thinking that life is devalued in favor of death, or what comes after death which amounts to the same thing.
Anonymous No.24715771 [Report] >>24715829 >>24715833 >>24715867
>>24697616 (OP)

>>24697664
>can we ever call anything "necessary" when talking about an all-powerful being?

>>24698079
>If he truly cant do that, and evil needs to exist for the world to function, then he is not all-powerful and because he stated he is all-powerful and knowingly lied, he is not all-good.

Atheist here!
The problem of evil was always bullshit to me.
It is literally pointless trash.
>all powerful , all knowing and all good
Like full stop, who are you even debating?
Because if it is an abrahamic god we have god literally torturing humans for fun because his best friend satan made this one whack bet with god (all of JOBE).
God being unable to do shot loads of things like stop iron chariots etc.

Like I know Christians have terminal superman syndrome where they inflate their god to be even more powerful ever decade until he is paradoxical however this violates the Bible they are worshiping.

As for debating a theoretical god I remove the all powerful part and we are finished I mean seriously inflating power to the point it becomes paradoxical is the problem here. Even C. S. Lewis in narnia understood this and this is why he introduced the concept of "deeper magic" who overwrites and rules the deities of narnia. If narnia is a christian allegory then it argues for this.

I know christians will have meltdowns because they worship paradoxical superman on steroids however realistically speaking this is not a valid criticism of anything.

In a realistic perspective lets take homelander, homelander is not all powerful however humans can not stop him. Will you do whatever homelander says or her lasers you?
Or will you go
>Awchually muh epicurean paradox
>you are not all powerful because...
And get lasered in the face? Like seriously who cares if home lander can not split the universe in half? If all of humanity and nukes can not stop him then what is your problem fagot?

1/3
Anonymous No.24715829 [Report] >>24715833 >>24716383
>>24715771
>>24697664
>>24698079

2/3

Going on from this we can use bible quotes:

>for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation
Exodus 20:5

So this is solved with a simple bible reading.
WE can continue to god destroying cities, or fucking with jobe....

>Behold, this evil is of the Lord.
2 Kings 6:33

>I will bring evil from the north.
Jeremiah 4:6

>Behold, I frame evil against you.
Jeremiah 18:11

>I ... create evil.
Isaiah 45:7

>What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
Job 2:10

>Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Lamentations 3:38

>Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Amos 3:6

The picture the bible paints is clear god creates evil. I have no idea how you can argue against this.... however Christians try because they worship the religion of
>My pastor says
or
>I think
Anonymous No.24715833 [Report] >>24716525
>>24715771
>>24715829
>>24697664
>>24698079

In the end the entire silly problem of evil is special pleading.
Magically if animals burn to death in forest fires that is not evil in an atheist world and nature or reality is not le evil.
However if god does the same then it is EVVVIIILLLL!

Evil in this context is simply a nonsense word some propel like to use.
Anonymous No.24715867 [Report] >>24715896
>>24715771
>Atheist here!
>Let's talk about my favorite character from my favorite superhero tv show. I know what you're thinking, everybody's already tired of marvel. But this show is different, there's a lot of gore and swearing, it's awesome!
We can tell
Anonymous No.24715896 [Report] >>24716010
>>24715867
Why are christians so retarded?
Serious question?

>Herp derp you used fiction to explain
YES.
Because instead of making up my own evil superman example I can use already existing examples.
Where do you have a problem here?

>Muh marvel characters
is there anything in you other then pavlovian conditioning?
>Marvel bad because I did get pavlovian conditioning from society
>god real because I did get pavlovian conditioning from society

>my favorite character from my favorite superhero tv show.
Meanwhile YOU CHRISTIANS HAVE CRINGE LIKE
Minecraft explains why god is real!
From a zoomer!
https://youtu.be/il6Ivu67b3s
Anonymous No.24716010 [Report]
>>24715896
>see this other guy is an immature retard I can be on too
damn i really struck a nerve
Anonymous No.24716383 [Report]
>>24715829
the entirety of your post is addressed in these
>>24702247
>>24709082
for instance, what God said in exodus, do you know what happened when Saul disobeyed and spared the Amalekites?
what about the context of your passage in 2 kings? the famine being a judgement on the evil king of syria. read the very first passage in book 7. you can't simply cherry pick "evil", not even solely translated as such, and remove context from the surrounding narrative to make a point.
Anonymous No.24716456 [Report]
>>24702182
narrow is the way, and there are few who find it
Anonymous No.24716525 [Report] >>24716721 >>24716827 >>24716845
>>24715833
Congratulations, you've discovered that if mindless forces harm a living being, it is different from an intelligent agent taking action the agent knows will harm a living being.
Anonymous No.24716721 [Report] >>24716810
>>24716525
Now that is a totally insane thing to say.
Is it
>Nooo the animal was burned in red fire RED FIRE!
VS
>Oh the animal simply burned in blue fire
Anonymous No.24716810 [Report] >>24716815
>>24716721
Do you not understand how responsibility works?
Anonymous No.24716815 [Report] >>24716992
>>24716810
Did the bot break?
Do you understand that you presented a totally arbitrary and insane moral system that you magically expect everyone to obey and know?
Anonymous No.24716827 [Report] >>24716845 >>24717004
>>24716525
>morality, ethics and good/evil only exist in a universe created by God
>otherwise it's all meaningless and subjective; a purposeless cosmic occurrence.
Anonymous No.24716843 [Report] >>24716846 >>24716869 >>24717017 >>24717027
>>24715501
Suffering is joyous in light of Charity. I am in no hurry to shed this life, it's toilsome, but we know it's beautiful, because with all this toil we do by the help of Christ, I believe we are privy to plenteous harvest; and I think if we look around us we can see the bounty thereof for ourselves--slowly strickling through. Consider all the things that are radiant that we get to forge because of some long-suffering devotion.--It's gratifying, my friend. A fallen world where the presence of Jesus is is, is Heaven to those who are confident He is there. In many ways as I experience it,--though it would be better to see Him face-to-face,--I have no inclination to count this life as being anything other than Heaven. Because this life is salvation already at hand,--I'm 'Born Again,'--have the sacraments in my soul--at work. Heaven is where Jesus is, hell is where Jesus is not. Why would I forgo my numbered days of receiving my lot with Jesus in this Earthly-manner?--And by what, committing a sort-of suicide? No it's a waste of God's gift. You contrarian, you.--Listen.

I'm not getting off my journey with Jesus for nobody. I'm sojourning here, where things taste bitter, to rejoice precisely here, sharing the Good News, with poor souls like myself. I don't wish to be elsewhere. Never assert that I do.

Amen
Anonymous No.24716845 [Report] >>24716867
>>24716525
>>24716827
I mean anyoen can simply say that
>Morality ... from god
And go
>It can never be evil if god does it by definition!

It is literally like I am talking to some retard who never studded anything in the field of moral philosophy!
Anonymous No.24716846 [Report]
>>24716843
*trickling
Anonymous No.24716867 [Report] >>24717004
>>24716845
an atheistic world view cannot even account for knowledge, metaphysics or morals. you borrow that from a Christian paradigm and don't even realize it. God is a necessary precondition for these transcendentals in a disjunctive that the contrary is impossible.
Anonymous No.24716869 [Report] >>24716994 >>24717011
>>24715285
>>24716843
>>24715501
>If you view this world as a fallen corrupt world, and the next world as a wonderful and divine and pure world, how is it that you don't want to leave the worse world and enter the better world as quickly as possible? The whole paradigm is quite simple, death is the best thing to happen to a Christian under the Christian worldview. What could be better than being gathered to the arms of Jesus? It is a necessary consequence of this type of thinking that life is devalued in favor of death, or what comes after death which amounts to the same thing.

Exactly. The other question is
>If you actually believe in your religion why are you not happy that a crazed murderer killed your children or you are dying of cancer?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaK6k4oZ20

At this point there is only 1 conclusion for over 99% of Christians the afterlife is cope literal COPE
>Awchually after we die we go to super magic happy land and live forever so these people are not dead!
Yet this also does fall apart since no one will go
>Ok everyone lets have a mass suicide party to get to our loved ones faster!

It is cope because they fear death and they need to lie to themselves despite knowing their loved ones ceased to exist.

The rest of Christians do not think about it and are effectively atheists that do this stupid telling lies and christian ritual things.

Anyone who actually followed the logic that an afterlife exists killed themselves a long time ago.

>NOOOO suicide is FORBIDDEN AND GETS YOU TO HELL
1) nice convenient COPE!
2) SHOW THAT IN THE BIBLE!
Funny how a god told you specifically what bodily functions are sinful and that having children is a sin and what direction to wave the blood of the animals you sacrifice to him. However forgot to tell you that suicide will get you to hell!
3) This dose not prevent you from doing legal suicide like going to North Korea and walking to them and starting to preach the word of jesus (they kill you for this). This is effective suicide yet 100% allowed and encouraged in your religion! You martyr yourself to heaven this way!

All religions are a insane joke, all of you are insane!
Anonymous No.24716992 [Report] >>24717067
>>24716815
What are you talking about? My moral system is grounded in my own experience, I.E. I know certain experiences are more desirable than others, so I go about securing the maximum possible positive experiences and the least negative experiences. I expect others to, more or less, attempt the same endeavor along their own lines. Morality and ethics is the negotiation process between those self-interested agents, with the ultimate goal of achieving synergy (since the ultimate goal for myself and many others, by one name or another, is Eudaimonia, something that, by its very nature, requires a community of individuals all with a well meaning attitude to those around them). I've stated this several times now, this system is grounded in reality, accounts for human solidarity and community, allows for variation in preference while having an overarching system of fairness.

It is the theist who proclaims they have a final and absolute law that all must adhere to (with no grounding for it other than their assertions about their invisible friend endorsing it).
Anonymous No.24716994 [Report] >>24717008
>>24716869
I can't be happy if a lunatic mows down my child, because it means there is a lunatic that is a slave to the devil that needs to see the light. It's sorrowful.
Anonymous No.24717004 [Report] >>24717035
>>24716827
>>24716867
You have a total inability to position yourself on the other side of a debate, and it causes your responses to be very weak. All that is required for "knowledge" is for something to exist and our ability to interact with it. That's all. You introduce God, but the concept is totally superfluous. Also, the "Christian paradigm" is entirely poached from earlier philosophy, history did not begin with Christianity, and I suggest you study history further.
Anonymous No.24717008 [Report] >>24717088
>>24716994
>When someone murders my child, I feel bad for the murderer, not for my child
The absolute state of the Christian mind
Anonymous No.24717011 [Report] >>24717076
>>24716869
I've always had that thought, even when I was a child being taught Christianity. Surely, every Christian would need to be secretly hoping they get nailed by a semi truck while walking down the road so that they get instantly transported to heaven. As you point out, the lie is shown when Christians avoid death, and it demonstrates, as Freud outlined, that religion is a cope for death anxiety, but death is still feared. Thus, people profess a belief that the afterlife will be better than their life, yet they persist in living their life. They contradict themselves, but, as anons in this thread have demonstrated, they will even deny this contradiction. It's a sad sight to see someone so deluded, but it is quite common.
Anonymous No.24717017 [Report] >>24717090 >>24717111
>>24716843
If children below a certain age go to straight to heaven when they die, wouldn't it be charity to murder as many as possible? This would literally be saving their souls, since a certain percentage will grow up and stray from Jesus, being lost forever. But if you kill them early enough, you ensure their salvation. In fact, even if the murder condemns you to hell, that is just a glorious and selfless sacrifice on your part, essentially embodying the sacrifice of Christ, and since you are doomed on the first murder the same as the thousandth, you should make sure to kill as many children as possible, right? Is there any real reason in Christianity against what I have proposed here, or is there only an appeal to common human decency which shrinks from the death and suffering of children?
Anonymous No.24717027 [Report] >>24717094
>>24716843
>though it would be better to see Him face-to-face
>I don't wish to be elsewhere
You admit there is something better for you waiting after death. Why is it you then proclaim you don't want to go to that better thing as soon as possible? Your action in continuing to live betrays you, you don't actually think death will be better, it is just a belief you cling to which salves your death anxiety. You are not being honest with yourself.
Anonymous No.24717035 [Report] >>24717070
>>24717004
>All that is required for "knowledge" is for something to exist and our ability to interact with it.
you don't even realize how many presuppositions you have to make for that sentence to make sense; none of them grounded in anything in a Godless universe. the atheist would say they are "self evident" or "just is", but that is subjective from person to person dancing to their beat of their own dna. you assume language has meaning and the object you're interacting with has a single form and that your consciousness processes this experience in time and space to be shared in a universal way. go ahead and explain metaphysics and ethics without appealing to the immaterial. you cannot predicate without universals and particulars and these presuppose the one over the many and that needs to be grounded in a mind outside of space and time; omniscient of all the facts we are learning analogically and omnipresent to tether their relationships. the Christian paradigm, which you categorically misunderstand, is the only framework where this is possible, hence the disjunctive in my earlier post.
Anonymous No.24717067 [Report] >>24717074
>>24716992
>What are you talking about?
Exactly my point.

> My moral system is grounded in my own experience, I.E
More like grounded into whatever nonsense you got indoctrinated into.

> I know certain experiences are more desirable than others
And I did reach the opposite conclusion.
What now?

>go about securing the maximum possible positive experiences and the least negative experiences
WOW nonsensical utilitarian world salad it is.
Any more self debunking trash you lie to vomit out?

>ttempt the same endeavor along their own lines.
You realize you posted absolute nonsense that is invalid right? Like the sentences do not even make sense in English!

>. I expect others to, more or less, attempt the same
The golden rule is proven to be invalid and wrong however continue.

>th the ultimate goal of achieving synergy (since the ultimate goal for myself and many others, by one name or another, is Eudaimonia, something that, by its very nature, requires a community of individuals all with a well meaning attitude to those around them).
You realzie you are posting nonsense word combinations that will make people laugh at you right?

>this system is grounded in reality,
It literally is not schizo. All you posted is schizophrenia.

>accounts for human solidarity and community, allows for variation
You understand you can not bully someone intelligent by pulling shit out of your ass and attaching more words to your bullshit right?

>with no grounding for it other
1) I am an atheist.
2) You have no grounding in anything other then your own schizophrenia here schizo.
Anonymous No.24717070 [Report] >>24717136
>>24717035
Read Descarte. You don't need a single presupposition to conclude that your thoughts and perceptions exist in some form. All you are doing with these posts is demonstrating you lack the basic understanding of philosophy 101.
Anonymous No.24717074 [Report] >>24717093
>>24717067
Reread my post again, but instead of being hostile and shutting your brain off, actually try to understand it.
Anonymous No.24717076 [Report]
>>24717011
Yep.

And this is an age old observation.
I like to cut all cosmic bullshit of
>Oh yea however what created the big bang?!
>what is before before?!
>And what is is is?!

With
>Why the fuck did you not kill yourself already or took a one way preaching trip to one of the counties that will kill you for being christian?
I mean Christians can not even explain how anything works in their day to day life, forget the cosmic bullshit!
Anonymous No.24717088 [Report] >>24717098
>>24717008
>"The absolute state of the Christian mind"
It's provocative for me to put that out. But I figured I should. Consider an evil person. That is somebody who lest by a miracle, some flood of grace,--will be so hard to get through to. How can I avenge lest I invade his wretched soul with justice. Maybe by the sword, or prison; but vengeance is the loving thing if it's justice that is being avenged here. And I will need to in the name of justice love them into Christ's mercy, and in that light he may discover contrition, if not maybe execute or jail the maniac so to subject him to attrition. And from thence pray it may develop into contrition.
I can love tough, I can love tender. You think I'm a pushover, suicidal, or crazy. No, I'm just not reductive wherein I don't acknowledge the fullness of justice. Not only do I properly thirst for it, as I insist you are fail to,--but I know what justice really entails. I know how to strike a fatal blow to evil,--you do not. I will 'turn the other cheek' if I see fit, because I know what it may do to my adversary's conscience. You would never figure to,--and that's shame!
You cannot vanquish evil in it's entirety if you do not invade souls. The gates of hell will not prevail against a Christian, strongholds of the devil will be broken by acts of mercy.--Never disregard it, you will kick yourself one day when you realize what it's worth!!!
Anonymous No.24717090 [Report]
>>24717017
>If children below a certain age go to straight to heaven when they die, wouldn't it be charity to murder as many as possible?
OH Yep.

Another example how christieanity is incompatible with real life or the real world.

Here is the full question
>Where do aborted fetuses go?

A:
>Heaven
Therefor abort as many as possible to send as many as possible to heaven.
WE the ones who did not get aborted are the cursed ones

>[angry christian noises]
Dude the bible literally says that is is better to be aborted or never born then to live!
Ecclesiastes 6:3-4
>OUT OF CONTEXT™
Read all of Ecclesiastes it literally says that being alive is worse then being dead.


A:
>I have no idea!
Should you not have the answers for these questions? What do you even know?

A:
>Hell
Then state it explicitly if your mother aborts you you burn forever in hell
>REEEEE [autistic screeching like a vampire got splashed by watter]

>In fact, even if the murder condemns you to hell, that is just a glorious and selfless sacrifice on your part, essentially embodying the sacrific
Oh it gets better
>Noo I can not kill babies or I go to hell
Question
>Will you willingly trade your place with 5 other people or 5 of your children? They go to heaven you go to hell?

The answer to this is fascination it exposes the selfish nature of religion
>I got mine and fuck you!
let them say this explicitly
>[christian goes crazy]

PS: Anything afterlife and religion creates problems and it is better to not have any afterlife in your fiction for this reason!

nice talking to you anon see you.
Anonymous No.24717093 [Report] >>24717107
>>24717074
>Reread my post again
It is one long world salad that answer nothing.
You are schizophrenic.

This is how simple it is to debunk you, there are 100s of 100s of other people who did come to a totally different conclusion what morality is then you. Regardless how many words you post or how many words like "Eudaimonia" you make up this will not change this fact.
Anonymous No.24717094 [Report] >>24717108 >>24717109
>>24717027
I explained, if you followed what I said, that it is imperative we do not kill ourselves and meet Jesus (And would you really expect Heaven to be kind to my imprudence?).--That's evil self-will. I want to enjoy the mission Jesus gave me, I am smitten with it. I would never let go of my vocation, it's more precious to me than anything. I want to survive as many slings-and-arrows as possible so I can PREACH --- AMEN
Anonymous No.24717098 [Report] >>24717144 >>24717150
>>24717088
>I know how to strike a fatal blow to evil
I've been told that God would never allow this because free will is so important. Or something. Also interesting that, presumably, God has the power to "strike a fatal blow to evil", but instead he holds back this strike, preferring to send human emissaries like you to have varying degrees of success. Some God who would play such petty games.
>I will 'turn the other cheek' if I see fit, because I know what it may do to my adversary's conscience
So your tactic is to be passive aggressive until your adversary's conscience is appealed too? Are you aware there exists people who have no conscience?
Anonymous No.24717107 [Report] >>24717110
>>24717093
Use the dictionary and go slowly, anon, I'm sure you can, at very minimum, improve your reading comprehension by the effort.
>This is how simple it is to debunk you, there are 100s of 100s of other people who did come to a totally different conclusion what morality is then you
That is included in my case. Either a person's moral framework actually works to secure many different people's aims in a harmonious way that encourages a wide range of buy in, or it becomes insular and fails as a niche exercise. True morality has a wide range of appeal which allows people to coexist, and from that common ground, can then debate more specific points. There is an element of evolutionary survival here, moral systems that harm their group will soon cease to have groups to operate in. How much more do I have to dumb this down for you?
Anonymous No.24717108 [Report]
>>24717094
You know I was thinking this is a joke or they misprinted something.
>Muh prayer!
YIKES. Like YIKES!
This is long debunked
https://youtu.be/hf5q6VFn17o?t=150


>Muh prayer! It WERKS
No and this is a face because it fails all the time!

>Muh prayer! It WERKS
The bible even tells you your prayers will be ignored!

At this point the christian ignores the bible and reality!
Anonymous No.24717109 [Report] >>24717121
>>24717094
You value your own life more than you value meeting Jesus. Got it. That's what I was saying in the first place.
Anonymous No.24717110 [Report] >>24717200
>>24717107
>That is included in my case. Either a person's moral framework
You are schizophrenic.

>True morality has a wide range of appeal which allows people to coexist, and from that common ground, can then debate more specific points.
Peak schizophrenia!

> How much more do I have to dumb this down for you?
You are schizophrenic!
Go shill your time tube somewhere else!
Anonymous No.24717111 [Report] >>24717907 >>24717914 >>24718014
>>24717017
Children have a gift of God,--that of their days hopefully being long, so they may till the fields of evangelism--enjoying life--by the sweat of their brow(Nothing is more gratifying, as I said). I want to live, laugh, love,--even so there's peril, yes.--That is all the more reason to be a beacon of life; so to upstage death, and despair, and nihilism. I will witness to all these worldly vices like that of despair. It's best I am never removed from this mission.--If I do, won't I forfeit, or lose-out on Heavenly-treasure? Removing me from my vocation as a witness is the same removing me from Jesus Christ, because mission is to *literally/physically* be an instrument of Jesus Christ.
I ask for much to boast about in Heaven, and to have it this way figures a long life should be in order, so to attain said bounty, said treasure.
Therefore the young can't just get killed to 'go meet Jesus.'--What the HELL. That is a necrophiliac mindset only a nihilist devil would humour.
One must only hope the young live real long.
Anonymous No.24717121 [Report] >>24718019
>>24717109
Jesus and me are one. In that mystical way wherein Christ and His Church are one thing not two. Or a man & wife are one flesh.
I think it fitting my days are long, or long enough to make an impact, and live & love well . . . Because I value Jesus' life as my #1 priority, and because I am 'an instrument of His peace,' I must not be idle, I must not 'check-out' before I'm ripe.--That is to sell Jesus Christ Himself short. That's to give Heaven a raw deal. As Keats says this life we live on Earth is "vale of soul-making."--That goes for us, and for our neighbours whom we must attend to. Heaven needs her footstool where souls are formed. This is the Earth, where you and I are, and wherein we must do our time.
Anonymous No.24717136 [Report] >>24717204
>>24717070
i think therefore i am presupposes a self who is doing the thinking. it's on the syllabus
Anonymous No.24717144 [Report] >>24717918 >>24717920 >>24717922
>>24717098
>"strike a fatal blow to evil", but instead he holds back this strike
He did not hold back His strike. Jesus' cross and resurrection is the justification wherein all of God's work before the incarnation was justified in, and all of God's justice and mercy thereafter is likewise justified in. God's fatal blow to evil is ONE BIG 'FELL-SWOOP' of a strike.--*One decisive blow.* It resounds forever. When we are a channel of the Jesus' Cross' work, we see in real time the resounding of that *ONE WORK.*
God holds back not a thing. Only we do.
It's good to have the strength to do what's good. We aren't automatons. We will love with virtue, exceptionally, and with a vengeance, if we do so--freely, and willfully. God's creation is beautiful because it's not a damn automaton. This 'vale of soul-making' is the place where virtue is made. Strength is always forged. Consider muscle, it comes as a consequence of resistance, atrophies as a consequence of sloth. Automatons are slothful crap,--proof the creation is beautiful as one must expect it to be.
Anonymous No.24717150 [Report] >>24717208
>>24717098
>Are you aware there exists people who have no conscience?
That's why I said I "MAY CHOOSE," to exercise the turning of my cheek. I knew you'd make some cheap stipulation to yet again show how I'm dumb. Stop trying to say I'm wrong. I'm correct about everything.
Anonymous No.24717200 [Report]
>>24717110
kek, look at the intellectual titan here, can't even think of another insult, just repeats "schizophrenic" 3x.
Anonymous No.24717204 [Report] >>24717263
>>24717136
Notice how I included that criticism when I formed my statement? I said "your thoughts and perceptions" exist, which they must in some form since they are being observed. You have direct reference to them existing in and of themselves. Hope you are taking notes, class is in session!
Anonymous No.24717208 [Report] >>24717241 >>24717252 >>24717261
>>24717150
>I'm correct about everything.
Isn't pride a sin or something? C'mon anon, humble thyself!
Anonymous No.24717241 [Report] >>24717252 >>24718010
>>24717208
Mind of Christ. I'm not being proud, I'm being earnest and realistic.--Given your refutations resort to contrarian scoffing. I need to tell you, that we've unfolded the specifics of the matter,--your inquiry. From here we can ruminate on what we've discussed or we can scoff. I need objections that aren't petty, or else how can I be inclined to tell you that I am uncertain I am right. I need to be prompted by you to reconsider an opinion. But of course I harbour truth claims, as do you. I haven't been able to concede a thing. I will boast. Read 2nd Corinthians to learn about the grounds for boasting,--when is it applicable(?), etc.
Anonymous No.24717252 [Report] >>24718010
>>24717241
>>24717208
*And that is to say, I am of course willing to concede to you. But it's fallacious to say just because I am a hypocrite (in this case, no, but in life, yes I am a sinner) I am being incorrect in logic. I was demonstrating as it relates to desiring Christ in Heaven and desiring Christ in Vocation that these are something you must have both of and they are coequal. You forgo one, you forsake Christ in full. You spoil 'the whole of the law.' 'A little yeast leavens the whole batch.' Etc. Etc.
Anonymous No.24717261 [Report] >>24718000
>>24717208
Why are you at the same point as I was at 5th grade. You are a rhetorician-sophist. Why haven't you grown to be a truth lover? The creation did not create itself. You have a vocation, a journey, unique gifts. It's time to walk.
Anonymous No.24717263 [Report] >>24718012
>>24717204
>observed
Observation? Where in sense data are thoughts and perceptions? It's on the quiz
Anonymous No.24717907 [Report]
>>24717111
>Removing me from my vocation as a witness is the same removing me from Jesus Christ
HERESY!
You think life on earth is the same as being with jesus.

>I will witness to all these worldly vices like that of despair. It's best I am never removed from this mission
Yep cope that you are afraid you will die.
All you clowns know that there is no afterlife and are only pretending to cope with your crippling fear of death!
Anonymous No.24717914 [Report]
>>24717111
>der, so to attain said bounty, said treasure.
>Therefore the young can't just get killed to 'go meet Jesus
So young children who die go to hell then?
Since they did not earn their treasure?

>That is a necrophiliac mindset only a nihilist devil would humour.
Translation:
>I am very limited
>I can not think outside my limited programing
>Conclusions that are logical however upset me make me feel uncomfortable
>I call them "necrophiliac mindset" or "nihilist devil" to insult the idea

You have the mental capacity of a retarded dog!
Anonymous No.24717918 [Report] >>24717920 >>24717922
>>24717144
>Jesus' cross and resurrection is the justification wherein all of God's work before the incarnation was justified
Does anyone actually belive this retarded trash?
Literally none of your trash makes sense.
It is literally 2000 year old cope how your 1 century chis-chan didn't die when the Romans executed him for his crimes.
Anonymous No.24717920 [Report] >>24717922
>>24717918
>>24717144
>Jesus' cross and resurrection is the justification wherein all of God's work before the incarnation was justified
Does anyone actually belive this retarded trash?
Literally none of your trash makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLAdBf8bwo

It is literally 2000 year old cope how your 1 century chis-chan didn't die when the Romans executed him for his crimes.
Anonymous No.24717922 [Report]
>>24717918
>>24717920
>>24717144
>Jesus' cross and resurrection is the justification wherein all of God's work before the incarnation was justified
Does anyone actually belive this retarded trash?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcLAdBf8bwo
Literally none of your trash makes sense.
It is literally 2000 year old cope how your 1 century chis-chan didn't die when the Romans executed him for his crimes.
Anonymous No.24718000 [Report]
>>24717261
So you claim to want truth and insult me for being a "rhetorician-sophist", but you can't actually build a sound case against anything I've said other than personal insults. If you presuppose existence is "creation", you are already begging the question. Try this on for size, the first moment of time is categorically closed off from cause and effect in the way we use those terms. Cause and effect denote a temporal relationship, when an effect is specified, you can ask "what caused this?" and the answer is to look prior in time. But for the first moment in time, there are no prior moments, so it because an invalid question to ask "what caused this?" because you are referencing a moment in time which doesn't exist. Now, if you try to skip around this by breaking the rules of cause and effect being locked into a specific temporal relationship, you open the door to the universe being self-caused either instantaneously or retroactively, perhaps in our future. Have you considered any of this or are you just working backwards from your preformed notion about "God" and are simply looking to rationalize it?
Anonymous No.24718010 [Report]
>>24717241
>>24717252
The beginning of knowledge is to recognize the vast extent that you still don't know. To make such a claim as "I'm correct about everything" demonstrates you are not a serious thinker. Hypocrisy, which you admit to, demonstrates you are categorically incorrect, either in your assertion or your action. Further, I demonstrated that you are operating under a strictly cope-based worldview, that is, when death appears scary, you solve the problem by imagining that the afterlife will actually be better than your life. But when confronted with the necessary corollary of that belief, that you must prefer to die and arrive at a better life, you invent excuses which conveniently avoid having to die (demonstrating the real golden cow here, your desire to never die). You will never concede to anything because you are so wrapped up in your own illusions that you will never open your eyes to the reality of your all-too-Freudian complexes. Even your arrogant assertion that you would concede if ever proven wrong is just another reflexive defense against anything actually penetrating your delusion. "I would concede the point if I was ever proven wrong, but I never will so HA!" It's all so childish, and I mean that very explicitly, it is the perpetual mindset of a child. Clear enough objection for you?
Anonymous No.24718012 [Report] >>24718173
>>24717263
What form is the sense data in?
Anonymous No.24718014 [Report]
>>24717111
You have utterly failed to engage with what I have said in the slightest. Do children go to heaven if they die? If so, is there even a single instance where a child could be killed and ensured heaven when they otherwise would have grown up and strayed from God, thus ending up being denied heaven and instead endure eternal doom? I ask you, purely on the logical mechanisms that you believe exist and operate, what is your answer to this? I don't want a rote condemnation, I want you to walk through the mechanisms YOU believe are at play and answer whether a child could be saved by being killed. Answer truthfully.
Anonymous No.24718019 [Report]
>>24717121
I was right in my earlier post, you are a walking example of Freudian complexes. Did you really just state that you are Jesus? You and Jesus are one? That to sell yourself short is to sell Jesus short? Look up Edward Wightman, Christians used to burn people at the stake for saying the stuff you're saying. Not only that, but you continue your litany of invented copes to ensure you can continue your own life and avoid death, even while claiming that what lies beyond death will be the greatest thing to ever happen to you. Fascinating.
Anonymous No.24718173 [Report] >>24718193
>>24718012
No yeah don't answer questions. You're an atheist after all
Anonymous No.24718193 [Report]
>>24718173
if you notice, that anon hasn't been answering most of the questions. it's always a half response followed by some personal attack. "read history better", "take a philosophy course", "cogito beats u hehe", etc