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Thread 24831287

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Anonymous No.24831287 [Report] >>24831321 >>24831690 >>24832345 >>24834080 >>24834350 >>24834436 >>24843565 >>24843636 >>24843857 >>24844721 >>24852988
If Matthew was a deciple of Jesus, why did he feel the need to copy Mark's account verbatim instead of telling his own account?
Anonymous No.24831294 [Report] >>24831321 >>24832398 >>24832566 >>24834080 >>24834355 >>24837104 >>24841123 >>24843636 >>24844234 >>24846631
The gospels aren't actually written by Matthew Mark Luke and John, anon.

This has been scholarly consensus for a long time now

What is more interesting is when are we going to find some fragments of Q?
Anonymous No.24831321 [Report] >>24831393 >>24831396 >>24831617 >>24831736
>>24831287 (OP)
Who cares? The "verbatim copies" are relatively far in between, it doesn't make much of a difference. The shorter and longer ending of Mark is a much bigger scholarly topic, richer in its impact and in the volatility of drawn conclusions.

>>24831294
>These weren't the authors, there is a source theory
>Not a single fragment predicted by the source theory was yet found tho
Did I understand you correctly?
Anonymous No.24831393 [Report] >>24831430
>>24831321
>matthew copied mark
>haha, you're saying we have never found matthew's source!?
Q has nothing to do with matthew copying mark, it has to do with explaining the similarities between matthew and luke
another way of explaining it would be to say luke had access to matthew or vice versa, but a lot of people think that creates more problems than it solves. we know both copied mark because when they change mark, they change it in different ways, sometimes at the same point.

why would us not having a copy of a hypothetical 1st century document be so shocking? We knew of a gospel of judas for centuries based on other writings but we only found it very recently. likewise we know of books that are based on sources which we don't have.

The idea is that matthew and luke both had access to at least two written sources, mark and Q (we don't know what his document would be called), Q being a list of sayings of Jesus, similar in structure to the gospel of thomas. Therefore when matthew and luke copy their narrative, they get it from luke, but when they're sourcing their sayings, they're getting them from this other document. It has to be a written document because they are word for word the same, if they came from oral tradition there would be differences in phrasing or at least spelling, even slight AND perhaps most importantly, they're in the same order, which would be impossible to reproduce orally unless people were memorising an entire list of Jesus' sayings.

Not him by the way.

Also
>Who cares?
people who want to know what happened?
Anonymous No.24831396 [Report] >>24831430
>>24831321
>The "verbatim copies" are relatively far in between
matthew reproduces 93% of mark
Anonymous No.24831430 [Report] >>24831617 >>24853075
>>24831393
>Q has nothing to do with matthew copying mark
I didn't claim it did. I said instead of wondering about Q, one should wonder about the ending of Mark, a completely separate issue.

>people who want to know what happened?
For what end? You will find out that Matthe copied Q and Mark because he could testify to those exact things. Or that he copied them because he just loved how Mark put them and so decided to limit his own gospel to confirm Mark's. Or any other reason. I know who wonders... but who actually cares? And I ask this because I see that those who care are mostly motivated by the borderline existential need to dismiss the gospel altogether. Which I'm not saying is the case for anyone in this thread.

>>24831396
>matthew reproduces 93% of mark
Not even nearly verbatim, which is the goalpost in the OP. That it narrates the same events with 9 details matching out of 10 is somewhat foreseeable.
Anonymous No.24831617 [Report] >>24834095
>>24831430
>>24831321
>uhhhh who cares dude
>man it like doesn't even matter don't think about it!
why are Christians like this when it comes to the supposed word of god?
shouldn't you want to know as much as possible about it? Like authorial intent for example?
It matters because copying an account is not consistent with being a direct witness to the events. This makes Matthew an, at best, second hand account. Why is this third hand account adding details that weren't in the second hand account? Why is he *changing* details? Omitting them?
Even if you think they're both correct descriptions of what happened, knowing that Matthew copied mark changes your understanding of what he is trying to say. If he's just coping a passage word for word it's simple, he's just stating what he thinks happened. If he's changing the wording, that could mean he wants you to have a particular interpretation and so he's changing it to better reflect what he sees as the correct narrative.
Viewing the book in light of the editorial changes can be eye-opening for some passges.
Anonymous No.24831690 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
Probably because it was easier than writing everything from scratch.
Anonymous No.24831736 [Report] >>24832380 >>24834095
>>24831321
Even seminary doesn’t entertain actual authorship. You’re an idiot advocating a meme position on theology out of pure ignorance. Odds are you never read the Bible to begin with. You larpers are a fucking plague.
Anonymous No.24832345 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
Because the Gospel of Mark was actually a recording of a sermon by Peter and because Peter was more important he deferred to not altering the material
Anonymous No.24832350 [Report]
3 schizos and 1 super schizo steal stories and put bullshit in it
Anonymous No.24832374 [Report]
Matthew was written first.
Anonymous No.24832380 [Report] >>24832398
>>24831736
Matthew wrote Matthew
Mark wrote Mark
Luke wrote Luke
John wrote John

Paul wrote all the letters associated with him, including Romans and Hebrews

Peter wrote all the letters associated with him

This was good enough for the Church Fathers and it should be good enough for you. You think you know better than Ignatius of Antioch?
Anonymous No.24832398 [Report] >>24832572 >>24834111 >>24844234
>>24831294
Luke (or, rather, an individual author) wrote his Gospel and Acts together. It is very much in the vein of an official letter produced for a wealthy patron in this era.

The truth is that besides Luke the Gospels were written for communities and done post-hoc by people who were not eyewitnesses. The only one which even claims to be produced from a direct eyewitness account (as opposed to Luke, which openly says it’s a compilation) is John. Matthew is very clearly assembled for the Judaizer community, with its emphasis on Jewish law and Jewish prophecy.
>>24832380
Paul was a Gnostic, your canon comes from Marcion, and Ignatius was Peregrinus Proteus. You can cope about this however you please.
Anonymous No.24832566 [Report]
>>24831294
What does Qanon have to do with the bible?
Anonymous No.24832572 [Report] >>24833225 >>24834062
>>24832398
>Paul was a gnostic
Anonymous No.24832578 [Report] >>24834090
There are more evidence for the resurrection of Chrit than Q.
Anonymous No.24833225 [Report] >>24834055
>>24832572
Again you can cope about this however you please, but your "orthodoxy" was borne out of Judaizers like Peter and James who totally misunderstood the true message.
Anonymous No.24834055 [Report]
>>24833225
>your "orthodoxy" was borne out of Judaizers like Peter and James who totally misunderstood the true message.
nta but the letters attributed to Peter and James are almost certainly not written by them. Reality is that we have pretty much no idea what Peter and James actually beleived/preached
Anonymous No.24834062 [Report]
>>24832572
In defence of that idea, the Gnostics (such as Marcion as that anon mentioned) loved Paul and clearly thought his ideas were compatible with theirs
Anonymous No.24834070 [Report] >>24834086
There is nothing more miserable than textual criticism
Anonymous No.24834080 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
The tradition is that Matthew wrote first.
That said, Mark was Peter's secretary, so it is not like he lacked credentials.

>>24831294
Biblical Academia is not a serious discipline. They lack evidence and whatever is accepted as the consensus view is accepted due to fads rather than new facts. There is zero evidence for "Q".
Anonymous No.24834086 [Report] >>24834111
>>24834070
It's a psyop by atheists or worse. The only reason they defend a composition date later than 70 AD is because they can't accept the temple destruction prophecy.

It's basically an area for atheists and crypto atheists to exalt themselves on skeptical assumptions
Anonymous No.24834090 [Report] >>24840761
>>24832578
There is about as much evidence for Q as there is for Q Anon.
Some liberal Christians apparently found out about it, except nobody has ever mentioned it or anything like it for 1800 years.
Anonymous No.24834095 [Report] >>24834115
>>24831617
>why are Christians like this when it comes to the supposed word of god?
>shouldn't you want to know as much as possible about it?
Jesus Christ is the Word of God and you know Him by obeying his commandments. How a text was historically formed is an understandable academic questions but mostly fruitless.
>authorial intent
Even if transmitting this were the key function of the text, trying to reverse-engineer a text's formation via various sources isn't going to do a whole lot for you. The Church, an institution formed precisely for transmitting the intent and validating interpretations by practical criteria, would be a much better bet.
>Why is he *changing* details? Omitting them?
First of all, none of this is established, second of all, you wonderfully demonstrate my point of how your line of inquiry raises more questions than it solves and none of them bear actual spiritual fruits.
>Viewing the book in light of the editorial changes can be eye-opening for some passges.
I will agree with this. Sadly, trying to causally determine how a text was changed at what point in what editorial through-line is perhaps the worst way to go about it.

>>24831736
What seminary did you go to, Anon? Or is this the good old "authorship means he wrote it down" sleight of hand?
Anonymous No.24834106 [Report] >>24834183 >>24834307
>The Bible is fake because of all the contradictions
>The Bible is also fake when it coincides
It's amazing the intellectual knots atheists have to twist themselves into to support their world view.
Anonymous No.24834111 [Report]
>>24832398
>the Gospels were written for communities
Lol

>>24834086
The worst part is how some of them used the criterion of dissimilarity. Some (but not all) used like this: "If anything claimed to have been said by Jesus agrees with what early Christians or contemporary Jewish people believed", Jesus didn't say it.
Anonymous No.24834115 [Report]
>>24834095
There are pretty bad seminaries out there that went full modernist.
Anonymous No.24834183 [Report] >>24834192 >>24844234
>>24834106
and if the gospels were absolutely perfect, it would be a cover up and everyone "getting their story straight" before writing as if part of a criminal heist. you simply can't win in a textual discussion because they aren't even open to believing the proposition. if they are corrected on a thing, the next thing will be shifted to. dawkins goes from virtually no scholars believe jesus existed to ok a few think he did to ok the vast majority think he existed but it doesn't matter anyways because i can't do science. sam harris quotes jesus telling a parable and frames it as jesus saying it himself("slay them in my presence" luke 19:27), but when corrected just pivots to something else like slavery.
Anonymous No.24834192 [Report]
>>24834183
Most atheism is based on resentment not actual honest inquiry. If God made you handsome or beautiful you wouldn't go out of your way to counter revealed wisdom.
Anonymous No.24834307 [Report]
>>24834106
I have once read the argument "Luke didn't write the Gospel of Luke because it would make too much sense for Paul's doctor to have written it. Which is why they attributed it to him".
Anonymous No.24834350 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
Reckon St. Matthew was the originator of the material the went into St. Mark's work.
Anonymous No.24834355 [Report] >>24834421 >>24836081
>>24831294
And that's because of what, like statistics? 'Oh, what are the odds it were written by St. John. . .'
*Meanwhile John says 'I am the beloved disciple, who's writing this'*
Anonymous No.24834359 [Report]
Does the intended audience come into account when trying to answer this?
Anonymous No.24834421 [Report] >>24836081
>>24834355
>b-b-but scholarly consensus shows us john was the last written one so his divination of christ is clearly a build up over time of his miracles
meanwhile they put the letters to the corinthians and the ephesians in the 40s with all these christolic traditions present. they also can't seem to reconcile how luke sides with john vs mark on a number of things while luke/acts is pretty firmly planted in the 50s/60s ad. they just handwave that away because it absolutely brutalizes their case. luke has access to mark in his travels, why wouldn't he just side with all of what mark wrote? because the gospel of john is also an early convention.
Anonymous No.24834436 [Report] >>24837711
>>24831287 (OP)
This is secularist thinking that comes from accepting Jesus as a real, historical figure, but deny vera homo, vera Deus. If you don't believe that the Bible is a divinely inspired, supernatural work, then it all falls apart. Faith is what provides you ears to hear, and eyes to see. It all falls apart on in the absence of faith.

>For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Anonymous No.24836081 [Report] >>24837057
>>24834355
>>24834421
The answer that satisfies everything is that the Apostles themselves didn't even agree on what the "message" was and how it should be conveyed, and had differing memories on the significance of what occurred. Peter didn't know/care to know about the Nativity so it's why Mark didn't put it in there, for instance. Luke-Acts and John are probably the most reliable, since Luke took from a multitude of eyewitnesses and pre-existing written accounts and John was clearly the most aware.

Matthew is probably the least viable. It seems that Matthew, or whoever wrote that Gospel, was writing specifically for the Judaizer Hebrews who got BTFOd after the Sack of Jerusalem. It's more of a historical relic than anything.
Anonymous No.24837057 [Report] >>24837162 >>24837190
>>24836081
>since Luke took from a multitude of eyewitnesses
Source?
>and John was clearly the most aware.
this is clear how?

acts contradicts letters of Paul, when talking about Paul, so I don't see how you could come to the conclusion that it's reliable at all, but most reliable? it's based on mark, reproducing about 50% of mark, but you don't think mark is reliable?

Furthermore, what makes you trust Luke's nativity story over Matthew's?
Anonymous No.24837104 [Report]
>>24831294
The scholarly consensus is that the authors are anonymous, because well, they are anonymous.
Anonymous No.24837162 [Report] >>24838210 >>24842587
>>24837057
>source?
luke himself in the opening to the book of luke. there are several books that analyze the devices and ways he wrote that really promote just how reliable he was for a first century author. semitisms validating the regions he was in, descriptions of places/nautical things, etc. a recent book i read off the top of my head that even runs these things through different systematic studies is called "the historical tell" by van wegh i believe.
Anonymous No.24837173 [Report] >>24842587
>John Mark was not an eyewitness, so his account is less detailed.
>Matthew was an eyewitness so his account is more detailed (and came first)
>Luke was a trained historian using primary sources so his account has details the other don't
This had been known for 1700 years.
Anonymous No.24837190 [Report] >>24838210 >>24842587
>>24837057
>Source?
Taken from my Bible:
>Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very beginning, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
Do "orthodox" Christians even read their own Bible? Or do you just absorb whatever your priest//reverent/clergy tells you on Sunday?
>this is clear how?
He clearly, without ambiguity, establishes from the very first lines that Christ is the Logos and God.
>Reliability of Acts
I never said it was infallible. I said it was reliable.
>Mark
Mark has clear signs of editing, especially in regards to its ending, that it is obvious that it has gone through revisions. "Church tradition" also says that it was sourced from Peter, who cannot be trusted.
>Furthermore, what makes you trust Luke's nativity story over Matthew's?
You're misunderstanding here. I think that the Gospels, in of themselves, are fine sources of information to compare and contrast and build a picture, but you have to realize that they aren't infallible documents. They're eyewitness/collection of eyewitness accounts compiled and collated either by communities or by individuals to serve as liturgical documents for persons or their community. Matthew was one of those, and it has a clear bent towards painting Jesus in a Judaic light for a Judaic audience.
Anonymous No.24837711 [Report] >>24837870
>>24834436
> As long as your force yourself to believe it's real it will seem real to you

Brilliant plan
Anonymous No.24837870 [Report]
>>24837711
>Brilliant plan
It actually is. Do you think yourself wiser than the creator of wisdom itself?

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."
The corollary, of course, is that you will never find God when you fail to seek him with any heart.
Anonymous No.24838210 [Report] >>24838805 >>24838806 >>24839251
>>24837162
>>24837190
Okay where does it say he interviewed eyewitnesses?
He just says he went around collecting stories, probably didn't even leave his home town, if even leaving his own church community.
Anonymous No.24838771 [Report] >>24838792
Why does Jesus tell his disciples to not go to the non-jews or the Samaritans ?
Why is he so jew-centric when he's supposed to be from another religion ?
Anonymous No.24838792 [Report]
>>24838771
because his initial focus was to fulfill the old testament prophecies of the messiah coming to israel first; a precursor to the great commission("Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."). 12 apostles for the 12 tribes.
>he's supposed to be from another religion ?
he's hebraism fulfilled to its conclusion. i'm not sure what you even mean.
Anonymous No.24838805 [Report]
>>24838210
>He just says he went around collecting stories, probably didn't even leave his home town
Stupid atheist didn't read the Acts
Anonymous No.24838806 [Report]
>>24838210
>He just says he went around collecting stories, probably didn't even leave his home town, if even leaving his own church community.
because of the "we" verses in acts and the fact that paul mentions him like 3 times in his letters.
Anonymous No.24839251 [Report] >>24839392 >>24842587
>>24838210
>Okay where does it say he interviewed eyewitnesses?
In Luke 1
>probably didn't even leave his home town, if even leaving his own church community.
Go re-read Acts.

Again, do "orthodox" Christians, whether they be Catholic, EO, or Protestant, even read the Bible? Or do you just go based on vibes?
Anonymous No.24839392 [Report] >>24840955
>>24839251
Where do you get he is an orthodox Christian?
Anonymous No.24840761 [Report]
>>24834090
Does Matthew and Luke mention mark?
If they don't mention one of their sources, why would they mention another?
Anonymous No.24840955 [Report]
>>24839392
>whether they be Catholic, EO, or Protestant
I'm going to assume from this that by ""orthodox"" he means Christians who aren't special skeptics like him who believe but not in that lame way where you actually believe but in that cool way where you think everything is totally contingent and fallible, dude. Doesn't help that the other anon is obviously not a Christian at all, though.

But of course as Christians we ought affirm divine inspiration, which does not contradict that the scriptures were written by specific men, and indeed the same specific men named by tradition.
Anonymous No.24841123 [Report]
>>24831294
So how do we know they're legit?
Anonymous No.24842587 [Report] >>24843401 >>24844159
>>24839251
>>24837162
>>24837173
>>24837190
People will say luke interviewed eyewitnesses but somehow none of them mentioned the army of zombies that went around Jerusalem right after Jesus died (as stated in Matthew)
Can you explain this? Matthew says they talked to many people, quite publicly, nobody mentioned this to investigative journalist Luke?
Anonymous No.24843401 [Report]
>>24842587
Because he didn't and it's just a meme
All Luke says is that "just like the original testimonials, this one is accurate" which doesn't even imply that it's based on those testimonials
Anonymous No.24843565 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
Short Mark is the only authentic eyewitness gospel. Simple as.
Anonymous No.24843574 [Report] >>24843601 >>24843602 >>24843626 >>24843691
It's kind of weird all the gospels were written 100-200 years after Jesus, or even later. It's like we today decided, "hey let's tell everybody what a great guy Napoleon was!" without internet or history books. Just going into it all blind, based on hearsay. Maybe some of us have a grandfather, whose grandfather's father lived while Napoleon was still alive and knows some stories. But compared to the emperor of france, there are so incredibly few contemporary mentions of Jesus, who supposedly caused a big fuss back in the day.
Anonymous No.24843601 [Report]
>>24843574
Yeah I agree in fact that's so weird I'd call it incredible
Anonymous No.24843602 [Report] >>24843623 >>24843703 >>24843785
>>24843574
Two things:
One, you're actually overshooting a bit. I guess if we literally mean "most of the gospels" we're counting shit like the gospel of Barnabas, so you'd be correct, but if we mean the canonical ones, vast majority of scholars actually date them to within the same century as Jesus, 50-something years after his death for the earliest mark. Only John somewhat fits your dating. Your point still applies but I thought it needed correcting.
Two, this is actually very easily explained, throughout his life Jesus was preaching that the world will come to an end VERY SOON. Naturally his followers didn't write anything down because a) his immediate followers were illiterate dregs of society and b) why bother if the world will end any minute now?
Therefore all of the gospels that we have are actually a later theology trying to cope with the reality that the promised end times did not come true. You can even see the apocalyptic message being more and more downplayed as the gospels get written, or better yet, with writings of Paul if you arrange them chronologically (and discard the fake ones).
Keep in mind this is NOT what you would be told at church because while explaining everything, this calls the theology into question (gospel writer's ideas are different to those of Jesus himself) so most choose to stick their head in the sand and just go LALALALALA THEY WERE EYEWITNESSES LALALALALA
Anonymous No.24843623 [Report] >>24843652
>>24843602
>his immediate followers were illiterate dregs of society
Yeah like Matthew the tax collector

>vast majority of scholars
Who are apparently using the least convincing methods possible to date everything, but I suppose as long as it forms something in broad agreement you get to call it a scholarly consensus and ride off the back of the fact people think of the meaningful consensus of actual scholars in e.g. medicine or physics when you say that
Anonymous No.24843626 [Report] >>24843785
>>24843574
Not really, the earliest buddhist teachings and oral histories survived almost 500 years before being written down, much longer than a mere half century. For most of human history the past was a obscure, vague, often mythological thing. If anything it's quite bizarre that we know the names of everyone in James Polk's kitchen staff, and the exact days (and often times) every monarch and president died for the past few centuries
Anonymous No.24843636 [Report] >>24843861
>>24831287 (OP)
Matthew did it by his own witnessing of Christ combined with other eye-witness accounts. Mark can be also called the Gospel of Peter because Peter mostly dictated it to Mark.

>>24831294
If that is not true, why bother making up two authors who never met Jesus Christ personally, or better, why not claiming they were written by Christ Himself after his resurrection?

Your scholars are Jewish sodomites and atheists (same thing) and don't believe in Tradition as given by God and claim to know better than men who lived closer to the times of Christ. Peak schizophrenia.
Anonymous No.24843652 [Report] >>24843658 >>24843691 >>24843729
>>24843623
>Yeah like Matthew the tax collector
Yes.
The way tax collecting worked back in those days was that you had an overseer, I don't remember their actual title off the top of my head but that's like the CEO, then underneath that you have a "chief tax collector" ( zacchaeus in the bible) who would be in charge of administration, bookkeeping as well as organising labour, and below that you would have your regular tax collector, which was the disrespect low class, low IQ job of going door to door and demanding X or else. You only needed to know how to count to be a tax collector in this context, writing only came into account from chief tax collector up. If you've ever been to eastern Europe, think of tax collectors like those people checking tickets at public transport.

I can provide citations when I'm not at work, but a quick Google search should prove I'm right.

>waaah waaah I'm not convinced by scholarship I would rather trust some random 4th century retard waaah
yeah okay
Anonymous No.24843658 [Report] >>24843861
>>24843652
The funny thing is that even the gospels confirm that, if anon bothered to read it. Tax collectors are listed among the dregs of society alongside prostitutes and sinners
Anonymous No.24843691 [Report] >>24843785
>>24843574
>It's kind of weird all the gospels were written 100-200 years after Jesus,
Lol, you wut mate?
Even Atheistic scholars place the Gospels at 70 AD and that because they suppose Jesus couldn't make prophecies, due to their atheistic bias.

Also, Jesus is probably one of the most documented persons in his era. You have 4 biographies, 2 by people who knew him closely and 2 by people who had sources who knew him closely and a bunch of letters about him.
For the time, this is a whole lot.
We have far more sources about Jesus than we do about someone like Arrian, who was a really big deal. He was governor of multiple provinces, the writer of the best biography of Alexander the Great and who noted down the Discourses of Epictetus, the best Stoic text. And yet, we don't even know if he spent some time as governor of Syria (which he probably did), which was one of the greatest posts in the Roman Empire.

>>24843652
I would rather trust Irenaeus, a direct disciple of Ignatius of Antioch who did know the Apostles personally and was a close disciple to John than some 19th century German who has no external evidences to his theories on Gospel authorship.
Anonymous No.24843703 [Report] >>24843715
>>24843602
This is an heterodox reading of what Jesus taught at odds with what Christians have always believed (and their beliefs are logically consistent and they lived in the same culture)
Anonymous No.24843715 [Report] >>24843724
>>24843703
>and they lived in the same culture
Gospels are written in greek while Jesus' followers were arameic speaking illiterate Palestinian jews
Anonymous No.24843724 [Report] >>24843729
>>24843715
You would know that wealthy women and tax collectors were a significant part of Jesus' followers.
Anonymous No.24843729 [Report] >>24843744
>>24843724
see >>24843652
>wealthy women
??? you mean the one woman that brings in expensive ointment one time and then they all berate her for wasting money?
Anonymous No.24843744 [Report] >>24843749
>>24843729
This is the person who claims to know better about the Bible than Christians, everyone...

Jesus' ministry was supported by wealthy women who were some of his most loyal disciples. Mary of Magdalene being the most famous one.

>then they all berate her for wasting money
Just Judas, who is hardly a good example. And Jesus defended and praised Magdalene for doing this.
Anonymous No.24843749 [Report] >>24843754
>>24843744
>>then they all berate her for wasting money
>Just Judas, who is hardly a good example.
See if you knew how to read you would know that who berates her and why changes significantly from gospel to gospel and in other accounts it's multiple people :)

Source on Mary of Magdalene being wealthy?
Anonymous No.24843754 [Report]
>>24843749
The only one named was Judas. Tell me, was Magdalene shown to be a bad example in that case like you implied?

Being able to financially support Jesus' ministry shows she was independently wealthy.
Anonymous No.24843785 [Report] >>24843801 >>24843861
>>24843602
>vast majority of scholars actually date them to within the same century as Jesus,
The "vast majority" of scholars also believe the gospels serve as genuine historical records despite the obvious political/religious agenda behind them and that we know nothing about the authors. People's objectivity cannot be trusted on this matter. We have "historians" arguing that a gospel was written in 40AD...even though the earliest version we actually have is from 200AD. Why make such a claim then? Because the scholars just felt it was "probably" written around that time! That's not science.
>Naturally his followers didn't write anything down because a) his immediate followers were illiterate dregs of society and b) why bother if the world will end any minute now?
This is a fair point, although Jesus didn't preach the end of the world. He promised things would be fixed and life would continue better! There should've been no reason not to preserve that for posterity.
>>24843626
>Not really, the earliest buddhist teachings and oral histories survived almost 500 years
Ideas are immortal, but when discussing specific events and people, the details fade and distort quickly.
>>24843691
>You have 4 biographies, 2 by people who knew him closely and 2 by people who had sources who knew him closely and a bunch of letters about him.
The gospels simply cannot be trusted. And Paul never met Jesus, personally, yet assumed de facto ownership of the early church with such passion, even the apostles were terrified. The author of Christianity as we know it is rather Paul than Jesus. But this only further obfuscates the historicity of Jesus, rather than helps clear it up. Much like God himself, the most important figure in the religion fades in the background, replaced by what later people think he should be.
Anonymous No.24843801 [Report] >>24843847
>>24843785
>We have "historians" arguing that a gospel was written in 40AD...even though the earliest version we actually have is from 200AD
When did Plato wrote the Republic, using your standards?
Anonymous No.24843847 [Report] >>24843859 >>24843869 >>24844166
>>24843801
Plato was a famous guy. Even today, we know quite precisely when he lived, approximately 428–347 BC. So if he did write the Republic, it had to have been somewhere in his adulthood. However, even in this case, some doubt persists.

But the thing with gospels is, even most of these "scholars" today have come to begrudgingly admit that they probably weren't written by the titular figures. Which already does a huge dent on their credibility. So when were they written and by whom? That's the big question, isn't it? A more appropriate question is, how much of these texts can we actually take as accurate? The names of locations?
Anonymous No.24843857 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
We all clicked for the cute fox
Anonymous No.24843859 [Report] >>24843866 >>24843869
>>24843847
Not him but the gospels don't claim to be written by the alleged authors, that claim didn't start to float around until like the second century
You can't really hold it against the original anonymous authors that some idiot later claimed they were someone they never said they were and was wrong.
Anonymous No.24843861 [Report] >>24844036 >>24844470
>>24843636
>Matthew did it by his own witnessing of Christ combined with other eye-witness accounts. Mark can be also called the Gospel of Peter because Peter mostly dictated it to Mark.
I'm interested how you explain the close similarities to the other "synoptic" gospels. I myself do believe the traditional account of the gospels' authorship, but aren't a lot of the similarities in the text harder to explain if they were dictated? Unless I suppose Peter and Matthew (at least) had memorised lots of similar material, which I suppose is a possibility, not that I know enough to say if it's likely myself.

>>24843658
Were all sinners illiterate as well as all publicans?

>>24843785
>The gospels simply cannot be trusted.
> Why make such a claim then? Because the scholars just felt it was "probably" written around that time! That's not science.
Anonymous No.24843866 [Report]
>>24843859
>that claim didn't start to float around until like the second century
How could the claim be made earlier when the gospels didn't exist yet either?
Anonymous No.24843869 [Report] >>24843902
>>24843847
The scholars who did this are mostly skeptics.
But your argument for manuscripts is a bad argument, won't you agree?

>>24843859
They were written by the traditional authors, most likely.
Irenaeus of Lyon said so and he was a student of Polycarp who knew the Apostles personally.

If there was a text and Hadrian (a student of Epictetus who was a student of Musonius) attributed it to Musonius, few people would doubt it.
Anonymous No.24843902 [Report] >>24843998
>>24843869
>But your argument for manuscripts is a bad argument, won't you agree?
No, I don't agree. Why?
>If there was a text and Hadrian (a student of Epictetus who was a student of Musonius) attributed it to Musonius, few people would doubt it.
It would definitely raise doubts if attributing the text to someone else directly undermined Hadrian's own claims and position within an organization. The way Irenaeus's seat relies on being the student of the student of THAT John.
Anonymous No.24843998 [Report] >>24844148
>>24843902
>No, I don't agree. Why?
Because most ancient books we have have manuscripts that are younger than the Gospels. The first manuscripts being from the 4th century is kind of impressive, even. The oldest manuscript of the Discourses of Epictetus is from the 11th century.

>It would definitely raise doubts if attributing the text to someone else directly undermined Hadrian's own claims and position within an organization. The way Irenaeus's seat relies on being the student of the student of THAT John.
Being the student of the student of John is a big deal regardless of Gospel Authorship
Anonymous No.24844036 [Report] >>24844113
>>24843861
>I'm interested how you explain the close similarities to the other "synoptic" gospels.
Well, I believe, and that is only my view, is that the first three gospels were closer in time and/or served as a historical-chronological account intended for different audiences: Matthew for the Jews, Mark for the Antiochians and Romans, Luke for the civilized world where Paul preached, John specifically to the Greeks and Esoterics using their terminology to make sense of concepts which have not been explained by their own respective philosophies yet, demonstrating the completeness in Christ's teachings.

Each serve their own purpose. You have to remember that ancient people saw writing, historical accounts and doctrine way different than we do. Remember also that the writings were not circulating to all Christians, since most were illiterate and Christian teaching spread by word-of-mouth, handing down the Traditions handed down by Christ after His Resurrection, and role-modeling practices for others to imitate.
Anonymous No.24844113 [Report] >>24844133 >>24844635
>>24844036
I certainly agree broadly with what you've said, but maybe I phrased my first question badly. I mean, the similarities between the "synoptics" look a lot more like the similarities between specific texts rather than accounts that happen to share details, which were later transcribed, if that makes sense. A lot of details are verbatim identical, for example, which seems easier to understand if it comes from textual copying (since what we have is a text) rather than just the accounts being the same, because, after all, two people hearing the same story might tell it with different words, but two people going off of the same text are more likely to use identical wording.

So if Peter dictated to Mark, rather than (just for example's sake) as Augustine suggests, being Matthew's "assistant and epitomiser" then, unless Peter was reciting something that either he memorised or would later be memorised or written down by others and used a source, you would not expect such correlations.

I hope I'm clear
Anonymous No.24844133 [Report] >>24844420
>>24844113
Given they talk about the same thing, isn't it expected they will be similar but with some small differences?
Anonymous No.24844148 [Report] >>24844169
>>24843998
>Because most ancient books we have have manuscripts that are younger than the Gospels
Indeed, which is why their contents must be taken with a grain of salt. We can use secondary sources, references in other works, and what we know of the author's life to deduce how accurate the copies may be, but they are not necessarily what was originally written. Or, in the worst case, they are outright forgeries!

>Being the student of the student of John is a big deal
Well, it is pretty cool, but it doesn't help us figure out did a man named Jesus actually exist.
Anonymous No.24844159 [Report]
>>24842587
>im going to argue in bad faith
>but you need to argue with me in good faith
sorry, kiddo. not interested
Anonymous No.24844166 [Report] >>24844239
>>24843847
>Even today, we know quite precisely when he lived,
same with Jesus
Anonymous No.24844169 [Report] >>24844221 >>24844256
>>24844148
But how can you trust secondary sources? Tacitus and Suetonius have their oldest manuscripts in like the 9th century.
Anonymous No.24844221 [Report]
>>24844169
Also, Suetonius never mentions himself in the text either, so they are anonymous according to the standards of Bible scholars.
Anonymous No.24844234 [Report] >>24844241
>>24831294
Q most probably doesn't exist.
The history of early histianity remains a mystery for us. A Rorschachtest in which everybody speculate and imagined whatever he wants. The same applies for the "historical Jeses". The only Jesus we know is the Jesus from the Gospels and, maybe!, the later appearences. Paul has wrote he that Jeses appeared him in a epiphany.
>>24832398
In this case, it would be understandble why Luke use Mark and Matthouw and so on. His goal wasn't to be orginel but the wrote the important story.
>>24834183
The main argument from the atheist camp came not from bible criticism anyway.
Dawkins or Harries argued from a scientific or philosophical point of view, they make clear that the story of a all-mighty creator becames more and more inplausible as a result of the discoveries of evolution and so on.
They may be false, but their arguments are ineffected by bible criticism.
Anonymous No.24844239 [Report]
>>24844166
How many books did Jesus write?
Anonymous No.24844241 [Report] >>24844348
>>24844234
>A Rorschachtest in which everybody speculate and imagined whatever he wants. The same applies for the "historical Jeses". The only Jesus we know is the Jesus from the Gospels
Yes. The consensus in "Historical Jesus" scholarship tends to be based on quite flimsy evidence (if we can even call evidence). They take the same Gospel everyone else uses and create alternative explanations to the ones Christians always believed.

I was surprised at first by this. I can't think of any other discipline with standards that weak.
Anonymous No.24844256 [Report]
>>24844169
>But how can you trust secondary sources?
Nowhere did I say you must trust secondary sources. However, if a person who is unrelated to the subject of debate, or better yet, is antagonistic to it, makes an independent mention of it, we can at least trust he didn't do it to please the people involved.
Anonymous No.24844348 [Report] >>24844665
>>24844241
Either you accapt tradition and teaching-authority as a scource, or you'll probably end up like this.
Anonymous No.24844420 [Report]
>>24844133
Well like I said it's more the manner in which the details match rather than that they match, which of course we would expect anyway. But would we expect exact wording to match so frequently? IDK, of course there is probably a way to make almost any theory fit but of course it comes down to what seems most reasonable
Anonymous No.24844452 [Report]
Really, if they were being consistent, all the adherents of textual criticism should absolutely deny the holocaust, or at least be holocaust agnostics.
Anonymous No.24844470 [Report] >>24844738
>>24843861
>I myself do believe the traditional account of the gospels' authorship
For what reason, besides blind faith and what some guy tells you to believe?
Anonymous No.24844635 [Report]
>>24844113
Doesn't that only verify the truth even moreso? You should let go and assent to the Faith given by God. Also, men in the past had way better memory given writings were not the main way of sharing and keeping information. Word of mouth back in the day 100 times more reliable than what we have today.

There were other non-canonical gospels but were written too late or were too off with what was handed down by Tradition, they still contained some truth to them but not the fullness.

You have to consider that all canonical gospel authors changed the words of consecration in the Last Supper, said by Christ Himself, so His words cannot be used by blasphemers nor prophaned. Hence only a priest learns the exact wording of what Jesus Christ said during the Last Supper, and only Christians participating in the Eucharist hear them.

So the authors deliberately changed these words in every gospel lest one prophanes them. These words are also not recorded in any missal.
Anonymous No.24844665 [Report] >>24846432 >>24846432 >>24846432 >>24849384 >>24849392
>>24844348
And for some reason, they underrated oral tradition too much.
The Aboriginals in Australia have oral traditions that say accurately of things that happened thousands of years ago.
Homer was "preserved" in oral tradition for a long time and the Iliad is a long ass poem.
Anonymous No.24844721 [Report] >>24844752
>>24831287 (OP)
The Bible does not claim that Matthew was actually written by Matthew.

Q is also bullshit thoughever.

You will notice all the Gospels are the same story addressed to different audiences.

Mark is for the plebs, Matt is for the merchants and businessmen, Luke is for the civil servants gov functionaries and women.

John is a bit different because it’s a later peace agreement between the philosophers/aristos and the new Christian religion.
Anonymous No.24844738 [Report] >>24844745
>>24844470
The weight of tradition I have received that suggests that authorship (whether you like it or not a tradition is in fact a form of evidence) and that there are no contradictions to be seen by assuming the tradition is true, and that I believe it has the assent of the Holy Spirit.

>faith and what some guy tells you to believe?
Obviously neither of those are bad reasons in themselves for a Christian since we do in fact believe things based on faith (though not blind) and the authority of certain scriptures, and, for some, people. In fact these are not bad reasons in themselves for every other person also, who routinely takes things on faith and trusts the authority of certain people.
Anonymous No.24844745 [Report] >>24844759 >>24844780
>>24844738
Complete word-salad. You didn't "receive" any tradition. You have placed, in the hands of fallible men, your entire mind (which was given to you by God) in hopes that they may be right. They aren't.

The only reason why there are 4 Gospels in the book at all is because Irenaeus liked the rhyming scheme of four books with the four winds and so forth. The only reason why you have a canon at all is because of Marcion, who was correct to point out that Nicaean/"orthodox" Christians worship a false God in Yahweh.
Anonymous No.24844752 [Report]
>>24844721
>The Bible does not claim that Matthew was actually written by Matthew.
The Twelve Caesar do not claim that Suetonius wrote it either
Neither does the Republic claim that Plato wrote it.
Anonymous No.24844759 [Report] >>24844769
>>24844745
You have zero evidence for your theory
Anonymous No.24844769 [Report] >>24844779
>>24844759
You have the so-called "inspired" words of bearded rhetoricians from the Third Century too myopic to realize they had built their tradition on the back of Judaizers. The Jews were right in that Christ didn't fulfill what they thought the Messiah was supposed to be (A political leader to enslave the goyim.) But that's because the true Anointed One, the True Christ, was sent from God (not Yahweh) to liberate mankind.
Anonymous No.24844779 [Report]
>>24844769
Are you sure the gospel authorship problem is the appropriate place for you to try and spread this sort of nonsense? Shouldn't you go start a gnosticism thread or something, I'm pretty sure you didn't arrive at these beliefs because you think Irenaeus invented the gospels or whatever
Anonymous No.24844780 [Report]
>>24844745
But I just said in my post that I believe the canon has the assent of the Holy Spirit so I in fact have not placed my entire mind in the hands of fallible men, although it appears you have placed your mind in the hands of exactly one fallible man, namely yourself.
Anonymous No.24846432 [Report] >>24846615
>>24844665
>>24844665
>The Aboriginals in Australia have oral traditions that say accurately of things that happened thousands of years ago.
Lol?? Source?? Funniest thing I've read all day
>>24844665
>Homer was "preserved" in oral tradition
How do you know the "preserved" version is the same as the original? I will link a study debunking this later when I'm not busy on all saints day
Anonymous No.24846615 [Report]
>>24846432
https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/news/64485-rising-seas-and-a-great-southern-star--aboriginal-oral-traditions-stretch-back-more-than-12-000-years
Anonymous No.24846631 [Report] >>24846633
>>24831294
All we know about Luke is that he's the author of the gospel of luke and acts, so we certainly can say that whoever wrote those was luke.
Anonymous No.24846633 [Report] >>24846996
>>24846631
Well, he was the doctor of Paul, but he was kind of a "minor character" and it wouldn't make sense to falsely attribute the Gospels to him.
It makes more sense for the Gospels to have been written by who they were traditionally attributed to than otherwise.

It is just a case of Bible scholars being super skeptic of everything in a manner no one is to any other ancient material.
Anonymous No.24846996 [Report] >>24847282 >>24847322 >>24847325 >>24847342 >>24847654
>>24846633
If it's traditionally ascribed then
>Why does Mark get all the geography wrong, if he's directly transcribing what Peter (a Judean native) would've known for truth? And if the traditional authorship is via Peter, then why is Peter made to look like a retard throughout the entire Gospel?
>Why does Matthew, a supposed eyewitness and Apostle, need to copy Mark line-for-line in multiple places?
Not to mention where he conflicts with the other authors? Did Jesus' family go to Egypt or did they return to Nazareth? He's the only one that mentions the Slaughter of the Innocents, after all, and it's purely so he can pesher-style a Hebrew Bible verse into it.

Matthew was clearly not an eyewitness. Mark clearly did not derive his sourcing from Peter. The only ones that can claim any real legitimacy as far as sourcing goes is Luke and John, since they do outright claim to be written by one person (or utilizing the testimony of one person.) John's author is clearly aware of Judaic geography and rituals, and Luke is written in the exact style of an official letter to a wealthy patron of this era.

>It is just a case of Bible scholars being super skeptic of everything in a manner no one is to any other ancient material.
People are dismissive about Homer's authorship in the same way they are about Gospel authorship. There's also the whole "if you don't get this right, you burn forever" that weighs like a Sword of Damocles, so you better know what you're talking about.
Anonymous No.24847282 [Report] >>24847290 >>24847342
>>24846996
this is bart erhman-esque critiques where you read things literally to a fault, argue from silence and why he can't reconcile some things like joseph having 2 homes or the flight to egypt. also, peter in mark is likely tying together the passage from isaiah 9:1 in his jesus itinerary which wouldn't make sense literally.
Anonymous No.24847290 [Report] >>24847333 >>24847342
>>24847282
>peter in mark is likely tying together the passage from isaiah 9:1 in his jesus itinerary which wouldn't make sense literally.
Which is true for both Mark and Matthew and it's why their accounts are suspect. All of the Gospels do this too, but them to a higher degree. They are all trying to pesher-read in prophecies that obviously weren't meant that way. Take the "call my son out of Egypt" thing. Matthew invents this retarded contrived narrative just to justify a line in a verse that has nothing to do with prophecy and was a historical statement about YHWH calling Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt.

I'm not saying the Gospels aren't valuable accounts. I'm saying that you cannot take them at face value or trust tradition of guys who were invested in the narrative. Irenaeus justifies the inclusion of the four specifically on the grounds of 4 Winds -> 4 Elements and other magical thinking. Marcion, who assembled the canon first, only used Luke.

Again, how do you justify a supposed eyewitness using the same lines, line-for-line, that Mark writes in his own accounting? It makes no sense.
Anonymous No.24847322 [Report] >>24847342
>>24846996
>Why does Mark get all the geography wrong, if he's directly transcribing what Peter (a Judean native) would've known for truth?
"All the geography wrong". This is what I'm talking about.
"Jesus not traveling in a straight line" doesn't mean Mark got the geography wrong. I think this is one of the examples of the "hyper critical way" that those people think. I wonder if they have never traveled themselves in their lives.
And notice that the ancient people who lived close in time to Mark never saw anything wrong with this. Just some autistic fucks in Germany 18 centuries later.

>And if the traditional authorship is via Peter, then why is Peter made to look like a retard throughout the entire Gospel?
This shows you don't understand Christianity. Neither do the people who make this kind of criticism.
Peter being a fool is the whole point of his story. Jesus didn't get some genius Stoic or Platonic philosopher to be the rock where he built his Church. He took a fallible, uneducated, passionate and impulsive man (but with a good heart) who made mistake after mistake to be the rock. And then the Holy Spirit made him fit for the position.
He took an imperfect man and turned him into the greatest of Popes.

If anyone would dictate how much of a fool Peter before, it would be Peter himself.
Anonymous No.24847325 [Report] >>24847342
>>24846996
So, if the Gospels are similar that's because they are fake and if they are different they are fake too?
Anonymous No.24847333 [Report] >>24847342
>>24847290
>They are all trying to pesher-read in prophecies that obviously weren't meant that way. Take the "call my son out of Egypt" thing. Matthew invents this retarded contrived narrative just to justify a line in a verse that has nothing to do with prophecy and was a historical statement about YHWH calling Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt.
Again, you show a lack of understanding of how Christians (including the Gospel writers think).
The thinking is not
"Here is some Old Testament lines" to "then let's build Jesus' history over it"
It was the opposite.
It was "here is what happened to Jesus" to "let's interpret the Old Testament based on this".

You are getting the causality wrong.
Anonymous No.24847342 [Report]
>>24846996
>>24847282
>>24847290
>>24847322
>>24847325
>>24847333
You people worship a dumb Jew God and are arguing about the specifics of it. One guy thinks his Jew God is actually not really a Jew God but rather some other God, and the rest of you are seeing how Jewish you can get in following a Jew God. Ridiculous. This whole religion is a mind virus.
Anonymous No.24847654 [Report]
>>24846996
>why is Peter made to look like a retard throughout the entire Gospel?
But... but the criterion of embarrassment
Anonymous No.24849116 [Report] >>24849421
>if we keep repeating the blatant lie that Luke is some great historian interviewing eyewitnesses people will eventually believe it
Anonymous No.24849139 [Report]
Another funny thing is how people just ignore the 20+ other gospels that were excluded from the canon because the early church didn't think they could sell gnosticism to people. But that's totally not a sign of purposeful manipulation and distortion of the message.
Anonymous No.24849384 [Report] >>24849418
>>24844665
>Homer was "preserved" in oral tradition for a long time and the Iliad is a long ass poem.
based retard
https://youtu.be/XG556DAXqsU
Anonymous No.24849392 [Report] >>24849396 >>24849418
>>24844665
You're so painfully retarded it hurts.
>The twentieth-century study of oral cultures can be traced back to the
groundbreaking work of Milman Parry (1902–35), a scholar of classics and epic
poetry at Harvard, and his student Albert Lord (1912–91). As a classicist, Parry
was especially interested in the Homeric Question, which is actually a set of
questions about Homer, the alleged author of the great classics the Iliad and the
Odyssey. Was there a Homer? Were these books actually written by him? Were
the two books even written by the same person? Even more, is each book itself a
single literary composition? Is each of them instead a collection of earlier stories
that have been patched together? Is it possible that any one person could
compose such lengthy texts in an age when there was not massive literacy? How
could anyone remember that much poetry?
These questions had long intrigued scholars, especially in Germany but also
in the English-speaking world. Normally these scholars had addressed the issues
by analyzing in detail the internal tensions and contradictions of the Greek epics
themselves. Parry thought there was a better way. In particular, he wondered
whether oral cultures in the modern world could shed light on how long epics
could be orally constructed, performed, and preserved. He found what he was
looking for in Yugoslavia.
There had been an age-old tradition in Yugoslavia of singers who produced
and recited oral epic poetry, tales—sung in verse—that were as long as the Iliad
and the Odyssey. In the early twentieth century this tradition was still alive and
well. Parry wanted to find out more about it and decided to engage in extensive
fieldwork among Yugoslavian singers. This, he thought, could shed any light on
what may have been happening millennia earlier in nearby Greece, back in the
time when it was commonly thought that “Homer’s” works were finally written.
Anonymous No.24849396 [Report] >>24849397 >>24849418
>>24849392
Parry made a brilliant start on this work, uncovering the techniques that
singers used to compose and retell their tales, and showing how very similar
techniques can be detected behind the now-written texts of the Iliad and the
Odyssey. Unfortunately Parry died a tragic death before bringing his work to
fruition—killed, as it turns out, while unpacking his suitcase and inadvertently
discharging a firearm. He was only thirty-three at the time.
Parry’s student Albert Lord picked up his mantle to pursue the work. Lord
eventually became a professor of Slavic and comparative literature at Harvard, a
post he held for many years. His great classic on oral epic poetry was published
in 1960 as The Singer of Tales.5 This is a great book, of real historical
importance to those interested in Homer and to those intrigued with the question
we are addressing here, involving the preservation of tradition in oral cultures.
Lord persuasively made a crucial point that has been confirmed and
reconfirmed by studies since his day: oral cultures have a different conception of
tradition from written cultures. In written cultures, such as ours, the idea of
preserving a tradition means to keep it intact, verbatim, the same, from one
telling to the next. An “accurate” preservation of a tale, a poem, a saying, for
most of us, is one that does not vary from its earlier iteration. The reason we
think that way is that we have ways of checking to see whether it is the same
tradition.
Oral cultures have no way of checking. All someone can do is try to
remember if a spoken version of a tradition is the “same” as an earlier version.
But in fact, being exactly “the same”—in our sense of verbatim repetition—is
not a concern in oral cultures. That concern came into existence in written
cultures, where such things could be checked. Those passing along traditions in
oral cultures are not interested in preserving exactly the same thing. They are
interested in making the same thing relevant for the new context. That
necessarily involves changing it. Every time. For that reason, when someone in
an oral culture claims that the current version of the tradition—a story, a poem, a
saying—is “the same” as an earlier one, they do not mean what we mean. They
mean “the same basic thing.” They do not mean “exactly” the same. At all. This
is crystal clear from Lord’s work and by significant amounts of work done since
his day.
Anonymous No.24849397 [Report] >>24849418
>>24849396
Parry and Lord listened to and recorded Yugoslavian oral epic poetry and
extensively interviewed both Yugoslavian singers and those listening to them.
Reading the results of their fieldwork leaves no doubt about their findings. In
that oral context, every time a story is told it is changed. The “gist” remains pretty much the same (see the previous chapter), but the details get changed.
Often they get changed massively.
Because a singer changes the story every time it is performed, he in effect
composes it each time anew. That means, though, that in oral performance, there
is actually no such thing as the “original” version of a story, or poem, or saying.
Every performance is and always has been different. The idea that there is an
“original” that comes to be later altered derives from written cultures, where
later forms of a text can be compared to earlier forms and there is some kind of
original. But as Lord shows, “In a very real sense every performance is a
separate song; for every performance is unique, and every performance bears the
signature of its poet singer.”6 That last point is very important. Whoever
performs the tradition alters it in light of his own interests, his sense of what the
audience wants to hear, the amount of time he has to tell or sing it, and numerous
other factors. And so, as a result, the one who sings the tales is at one and the
same time the performer of the tradition and the composer.
One striking fact to emerge from Parry and Lord’s extensive interviews is
that the singers of these folk tales consistently and frequently insisted that their
performances were “the same” every time. But when they said so, they did not
mean that it was literally the same. For a singer, the fixity of the song “does not
include the wording, which to him has never been fixed, or the unessential parts
of the story.”7
How different could “the same” song be in different versions? Social
anthropologist Jack Goody has noted that when Milman Parry first met a singer
named Avdo, he took down by dictation a lengthy song that he performed called
“The Wedding of Smailagiæ.” It was 12,323 lines long. Some years later Albert
Lord met up with Avdo again, and took down a performance of “the same” song.
This time it was 8,488 lines.8 Parry himself observed this phenomenon. He one
time had Avdo sing a song performed by another singer, named Mumin. Avdo
strongly insisted it was the same song. His version was nearly three times as
long.


Retard.
Anonymous No.24849418 [Report] >>24849447 >>24849448
>>24849384
>>24849392
>>24849396
>>24849397
Homer scholarship is based on zero evidence other than the text itself.
It is extremely speculative and if you look at your Wikipedia entry you could look at it yourself

>There had been an age-old tradition in Yugoslavia of singers who produced and recited oral epic poetry, tales—sung in verse—that were as long as the Iliad and the Odyssey. In the early twentieth century this tradition was still alive and well.

There is no mention by Ancient Greeks that something like this happened in the creation of any poem of that era. They were closer in time and culture to Homer than... Yugoslavia bards in the 20th century.
For the Ancient Greeks, Homer was one master poet. Except, I think, for one fringe school who thought there were 2 master poets.

But you don't see Greeks talking about the "communal way of writing poems".
If there is one area that is more retarded and based on flimsier evidence than critical Bible studies, it is Homer scholarship.
Anonymous No.24849421 [Report] >>24849435 >>24849444
>>24849116
Luke was a literal who, other than being a Gospel author. He didn't meet Jesus and he was tied with Paul.
>the man who researched and interviewed people to write the Gospel was not the literal-who Luke, but another anonymous literal-who. But you just can't call him Luke, right? You need to call him some other name
Anonymous No.24849435 [Report] >>24849444 >>24849577
>>24849421
he contradicts Paul on several occasions, most notably when it comes to his encounter with Peter and James
Paul's own writing:
>Paul gets accused of being a lackey of the chirch of Jeruslaem, getting his authority from them
>Paul's rebuttal is that he insists on getting his authority directly from Jesus, all of his theology is direct from Jesus or his own
>Insists and swears that he didn't talk to anyone in Jerusalem for 3 years, begrudgingly admits that he did make a one time trip there just to check in, where he only met Peter and James, and they didn't even agree, but left with some kind of understanding
The events as narrated in Acts:
>Paul "meets" Jesus then as soon as he does that the first thing he does is go to Jerusalem to consult with the apostles, they all have a meeting where he describes what happened and afterwards they all agree that Paul is the best and everyone agrees on everything, Paul gets an official seal of approval right off the bat to convert goyim

Either """luke""" is misinformed, which would mean he wasn't there, he was there and knew what actually happened but chose to blatantly lie, or Paul lied in his own correspondence with churches he supposedly cared for.
Pick one and we can go from there.
Anonymous No.24849444 [Report] >>24849484
>>24849435
Technically they could've both lied as well.
>>24849421
>see uhh it can't be a lie because uh they could have hypothetically come up with a more flattering lie
So if you catch a man and his wife is stabbed in the chest dead and they go "it was an accident i swear!!" that MUST mean they're telling the truth because they *could have* claimed someone else run into the room and killed her instead!
Anonymous No.24849447 [Report] >>24849454
>>24849418
What makes you think the Illiad did not go through an analogous process?
Can you name one oral culture that we have actually studied where the original text is preserved accurately? ONE?
Anonymous No.24849448 [Report] >>24849454
>>24849418
>we know the gospels are accurate because the illiad was preserved orally for thousands of years
>no it wasn't
>well heh homer scholarship is retarded anyway
Anonymous No.24849454 [Report] >>24849485
>>24849447
What makes you think it did?
Was there anything in Ancient Greek that was said to be composed like this? Is there any evidence Ancient Greeks ever did this?

>>24849448
Have you seen the arguments in Homer scholarship and the kind of evidence they have?
Calling something "scholarship" doesn't mean it is high quality
Anonymous No.24849484 [Report] >>24851218
>>24849444
>Officer someone stabbed my wife in the chest, said My name is Bill, and ran away!
>Hmmm but how do we know that Bill was the same man who ran away... the Runner in this account is actually... le anonymous
Anonymous No.24849485 [Report] >>24849524
>>24849454
Nobody in this thread has ever brought up homer scholarship before you did, the credibility of Homer shcolarhsip as a field has nothing to do with the discussion, the study cited earlier has ramifications for oral transmission of information in general, which homer is only a small part of. Your personal thoughts on homeric scholarship as a field have nothing to do with the FACT that oral cultures do not and have never ever been observed to have even one instance of passing on a text accurately through oral means for any extended period of time.
Anonymous No.24849524 [Report]
>>24849485
The discussion has branched to Homer scholarship. And Homer scholarship is extremely speculative and works with no evidence at all. You don't see any Greeks writing about poems being composed that way and the evidence we have points to people believing one person composed the Iliad. Had this method been common among the Greeks, shouldn't any ancient Greek have mentioned it?

And even in the subject of the thread, the post I was answering to was about traditions of knowledge rather than the preservation of texts. There have been oral traditions from the same era about the tombs of Peter and Paul that have been vindicated by relatively recent archeological findings.
Anonymous No.24849577 [Report] >>24851011
>>24849435
Luke did not portray himself as being involved in the first Paul visit to Jerusalem and writers of the time in that genre of book (biographies) sacrificed chronological exactness in order to push their overall point.
And he did portray himself as being part of some of Paul's letter travels.

Notice that Ancient people did not see any problem with that. You don't have opponents like Celsus or early Christians being concerned about this.
Anonymous No.24849756 [Report]
Paul is an interesting case. The early church had a nice story going that they were selling to jewish communities, greeks, and egyptians, but they needed someone to take it to rome too. And lo! they find mysterious understanding with this roman guy. Well, if he were a full roman and in no way partial to the story, it would lend credence to his conversion being a miracle of faith. But Paul was from a devout family of jews. I find it more plausible he met the apostles -before- seeing "the light."
Anonymous No.24851011 [Report] >>24852189
>>24849577
So he knew Paul personally and deeply but never once asked if he met THE BROTHER OF JESUS?
>Notice that Ancient people did not see any problem with that. You don't have opponents like Celsus or early Christians being concerned about this.
We don't have their own writings though, we only have some quotations of them in christian apologetics. This is like using a youtuber drama reaaction channel as your source instead of the nonexistent original, we don't know what all of the arguments were, only some of the ones that Christians were comfortable quoting to rebuke
Anonymous No.24851218 [Report] >>24852137
>>24849484

https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=6860ad3c88e36
This video must've been made by Merlin Monroe's secretary. I know this bcuz uuuhhhhh I could've said Cleopatra, that would've been more impressive
Anonymous No.24852137 [Report]
>>24851218
Nobody in the thread is making the argument you're mocking albeit
Anonymous No.24852189 [Report] >>24852256
>>24851011
>So he knew Paul personally and deeply but never once asked if he met THE BROTHER OF JESUS?
Relative, not brother. And what in the heck are you talking about? Where did Luke say Paul didn't meet James?

>We don't have their own writings though, we only have some quotations of them in christian apologetics. This is like using a youtuber drama reaaction channel as your source instead of the nonexistent original, we don't know what all of the arguments were, only some of the ones that Christians were comfortable quoting to rebuk
If Christians didn't "rebuk" the arguments their opponents considered the strongest, their opponents would just push harder on them. Celsus, the ancient Rabbis, etc were not idiots. If they sensed weakness, they would go at it. But they didn't really, since the Gospels were writing in the convention of Greco Roman biographies.

In a "meta" kind of argument, if the Gospels were written in the way modern academics say they would, with anonymous communities fixing the texts and thinking like 19th century German Historians... they would likely clean up this kind of thing.
Anonymous No.24852256 [Report] >>24852342
>>24852189
>Relative, not brother.
Wrong.
Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3
Anonymous No.24852342 [Report] >>24852919
>>24852256
The word for brother, cousin and relative is the same.
Anonymous No.24852919 [Report] >>24853017
>>24852342
The passages also mention his sisters specifically.
What sense would it make to say "relatives and sisters"?
Anonymous No.24852988 [Report]
>>24831287 (OP)
Matt wrote first
Anonymous No.24853017 [Report]
>>24852919
The terms for male relatives and female relatives was different. Sister and female cousin had the same term.
Anonymous No.24853075 [Report]
>>24831430
>Not even nearly verbatim, which is the goalpost in the OP. That it narrates the same events with 9 details matching out of 10 is somewhat foreseeable.
Its not about shared contents, its about the exact shared phrasings. three poems can describe the same sunset, but if their exact wording, rhyme and meter is the same, you have to suspect some kind of literary tradition mediating between them. This is what the synoptic problem is, and its something already noticed by st. Augustine. How that literary tradition works exactly is under debate, but Mark first + Q for Matthew and Luke is the simplest solution proposed by modern scholarship, but various other historical models have also been proposed (for example, Augustine believes Matthew -> Mark -> Luke).
Anonymous No.24853174 [Report] >>24853221 >>24853271 >>24853273 >>24853313 >>24853768
How do I become more knowledgeable than christcucks about their own religion while mainting a secular position
Anonymous No.24853221 [Report] >>24853271
>>24853174
Just read up on biblical textual scholarship. Bart Ehrman has a great podcast you can just tune in on and will get you a better basic understanding of the Bible than most christians.
Anonymous No.24853271 [Report]
>>24853221
>>24853174
You will get dunked on and made to look like a retard if you do as anon suggests. Just read the bible and look for research on the topic once you feel you've read enough.
Anonymous No.24853273 [Report]
>>24853174
You are unlikely to. Bible scholars sometimes come to conclusions exactly because they are incompetent at understanding Christianity and see the same text that was understood in one way by Christians in an anachronic way, creating stories of conflicting communities each writing their own Gospel.
Take an example in this thread of someone saying that Mark writing Peter as a stupid man means that Mark was not close to Peter. I have seen people making the same kind of argument before and it just shows someone doesn't understand Christianity.
Anonymous No.24853284 [Report] >>24853313
To derail this thread a bit, it's so strikingly obvious that Paul was not a Trinitarian, just got finished reading first Corinthians today again and he clearly states that God is above Jesus in the chain.

The Monarchical Trinitarianism was a later development, not saying Paul wouldn't agree, but he himself prob held "Arian-like" beliefs.
Anonymous No.24853313 [Report] >>24853327 >>24853328 >>24853768
>>24853174
See another example of how you won't "get" things without a good understanding of theology here >>24853284

A wise man once said "It is easy to misunderstand Paul"
Anonymous No.24853327 [Report]
>>24853313
Some people read the primary sources and never think to check up on the two millenia of secondary literature to see if their specific thoughts have been satisfactorily discussed before
Anonymous No.24853328 [Report] >>24853406
>>24853313
>But I would have you know that the head† of
every man is Christ, and the head† of the woman
is man, and the head† of Christ is God.

>†) or Origin

I know Monarchical Trinitarianism is a later firm foundation for such passages, and I am in agreement with it, it also makes sense with various prophecies, but do you think Paul himself would explain it to you if you resurrected him?
Anonymous No.24853406 [Report]
>>24853328
Not necessarily taking a position on the debate but the passage continues to use "head" in the sense of the body part, and whether men or women should cover it in prayer, so I don't think "origin" is very good here. And later on in verse 12 he had further opportunities to distinguish "Christ" and "God" but only mentioned God. Do you think it's unlikely to be a metaphor for what is displayed in prayer, meaning "The Father" by the first "God"?
Anonymous No.24853768 [Report] >>24853866
>>24853174
read the bible then read an entry level college textbook about the bible
you can do more but this should take you at least a few months unless you're a neet, so come back when you do that i guess
>>24853313
>uhhhh le no
i can't take you people seriously when this is all you do "hurr durr no ur le wrong xd"
Anonymous No.24853866 [Report]
>>24853768
You are just mad because earlier your theory that "Mark was not close to Peter because he was harsh on him" was easily refuted and you were shown to be illiterate on basic theology, which makes any interpretation of yours suspect to begin with.