Thread 24837194

Oracular edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>24816688

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE·
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

All Classical languages are welcome.

Why is Greece full of turkeys now

>>24837213
The Ottomans came in and dumped a bunch of Turko-Arab mutts.

>>24837194 (OP)
Hello, I just started reading much of Plato, a bit of Aristotle and Plotinus, however i do wonder where to begin learning ancient greek? It seems like an interesting language altogether. They only thing i know 'ψυχή φίλε τήν φύσιν'
But im most likely very wrong lol. What are good sources/books to study or authors for ancient greek and pronunciation etc.

>>24837312
for me it's Athenaze, I've seen some call it a bit too hard and maybe me knowing Latin already when I started Greek helped but I enjoyed and have no regrets about it
nowadays there's also Logos Lingua Graeca, apparently it should be easier on the newcomer

>>24837348
Thank you anon :) I will download both, this language is very cool, what do you think is the hardest part/ hurdle?
This is my first time learning a language in general but im already passionate about philosophia and ancient Greece so.

>>24837382
I mean overall it's still going to be the lexicon, as much as we have borrowed from it especially for scientific/learned terms it's still fundamentally a pretty foreign language, it's going to take a lot of reading but if you're passionate about it it's going to become almost part of a routine where you read/do something daily.
Maybe the grammar initially can be scary but it's doable.

>>24835354
It was a long time ago, but I think he said that Ecce Romani was too hard, that there was too much thrown at you in each chapter, and that things were poorly explained. I definitely understand the complaint that there's too many words (and often poorly chosen words) per chapter compared to the small size of the reading. On the other hand, I don't think his classes were very successful, judging by the final result for the average student in the class. He was my teacher for Latin 2 and 3. When I took Latin 1, the teacher did use Ecce Romani, and I think the class was more successful. It might not be a fair comparison. Maybe Latin 1 is just easier, and I also think the crop of students in the Latin 1 class had an overall higher IQ than the other years.

I'm not sure what you mean by whether I liked it. I enjoyed the two years of classes using Jenney's, but I also enjoyed my first year of Latin with Ecce Romani. Having the perspective I have now, would I recommend it today? For self-study, probably not. Glancing over it, what advantages does it have over the myriad other grammar-translation textbooks produced over the last hundred years or so? For in-class use, I think that textbooks like Ecce Romani (or LLPSI, CLC, Oxford) have an advantage in that they have a set of characters for the students to latch onto and make jokes about for the year.

>>24837213
TRANSLATION CHALLENGE (very hard):
gobble gobble fat turkeys are we
were not here for living were here for thanksgiving

>>24837312
Athenaze and Reading Greek. If you master those textbooks you should be reading Plato pretty comfortably.

>>24837845
>(very hard)
yes, but only because you can't into English

>>24837886
sorry
Gobble, gobble; fat turkeys are we.
We are not here for living, we are here for Thanksgiving.

>>24837845
Gobblus, gobblus. Meleagres pingues sumus.
Hic non sumus ut vivamus. Hic sumus in actionem gratiarum.

>>24837447
>>24837851
ύμΐν εύχαριστώ :)

>>24837312
follow this

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16s3pOejAXaUvQ-WCYmFrXo2cnKsl2j0efCrothCp3Y4/edit?gid=0#gid=0

though i would start athenaze chapter 1 before logos chapter 1

>glance at a word in athenaze
>can remember the meaning of it for the whole chapter

>stare at a word in anki
>takes like 5-20 tries to try and remember it after it only being a few seconds since i saw it last


what causes this? why is vocab in anki so difficult to remember

>>24839041
context

>>24839043
do you think it would be better to get another deck that has example sentences?

>>24839045
I think it would be better to read things in context

>>24839045
nta but while doing athenaze I made my own deck with phrases, that is, side A -> lemma+example phrase of lemma in use, if possible taken from athenaze directly, side B -> dictionary entry of lemma + translation of the example phrase
this was the last thing I did finishing a chapter before doing the next, it's an exercise on its own

Protip: editions of texts from the 1800s are often both Graece et Latine. I’m just using it to read the Latin since I’m studying that rn but I read the Cyropaedia in the original back when I was focusing a ton on Greek so I can use the text above when I get stuck on something. Worth looking for editions like this

>>24839066
the Didots are my favorite, at least as someone who reads on screens, I can zoom to look at one side only and peek at the other if needed

>>24839087
>αηοως
Why.

>>24839104
you mean ἀηδῶς?

>>24839195
Oh thank fuck, that δ looked like a ο to me. I was about to say that four back to back vowels is TOO much. That's a rough photocopy of a shit font btw. Do better.

>>24839205
It looks fine to me

>>24839208
That font is the bad kind, either you haven't read enough Greek prints or you're ignoring it. You can tell because the kappas used in those fonts are just reused from Hebrew typefaces from the early 20th century.

>>24839211
I’ve ready plenty of Greek and this font is easily legible so it’s fine imo
Grecs du Roi is an example of an actually bad one

>>24839265
Your opinion is poor and unfounded. Most people agree that it is not the clearest font, of which there are far better.

>>24839275
I didn’t say it’s the *clearest* I just said it’s fine

>>24839282
Your opinion is poor, it is not fine, and the better fonts should have been adopted earlier. The shittier fonts were retained out of laziness and inexpensiveness.

this made me think, with modern LLMs one could probably get the texts both Latin and AG as source and then create a high quality pdf in whatever format you like the most e.g side by side or alternating pages with the best fonts
printing it would be another matter but still

>>24839289
The fact that you read δ as ο leads me to believe this is a skill issue and not a problem with the font

>>24839298
>that fact that you misread a cheap photocopy of an inferior font type suggests totally illogical outcome

Wow! You're an idiot.

>>24839309
I read it perfectly fine so there cannot be an error in the print but your ability to read.

>>24839318
Pick better materials next time and don't be an ass about it.

>>24839041
Make your anki cards yourself, embed the word within the context of a sample sentence, and only do it for vocab you have already covered in your reading. It is a tool for review, not for raw learning.

>>24839041
>takes like 5-20 tries to try and remember it after it only being a few seconds since i saw it last
If it’s a one or two word gloss you’re struggling to remember, then your short term memory sounds fried. It’s reversible but it takes time and focus. Write the word down 5 times before moving on, or read it in context as other anon said. Also may be a function of how many reviews you’re trying to do at once, your brain has limits per session of focus and per day before cognitive decline. Lengths of time differ for everyone but you might need to experiment shorter sessions, fewer reviews, longer breaks etc

Imagine wasting time making anki cards when you could be reading and listening more or working on composition
L
M
F
A
O

>>24839205
if there are better editions that have the Greek and Latin side by side I'm all ears, I'm not particularly attached to Didots per se, it's just the one published series I know that has the text side by side which is comfy

Franciscan kino (which is followed by numerological and angelological speculation in §10-11)

I hate how Athenaze sometimes sneaks in stuff that hasn't been covered yet by the textbook and wont be for a little while

>>24839289
Grecs du Roi was horribly expensive with all those ligatures. I saw an edition of Aristotle in that font and I couldn't read half of it.

>>24840398
Is that by Bonaventure?

>>24840423
>>24837348
Are you talking about the regular Athenaze or the Italian edition?

>>24840674
Sic

>>24840674
I bought him but the whole thing is in Greek with only notes in Latin

>>24840358
outside of New Testaments they are pretty rare. I've seen a couple from academic publishers but pre-WW2

Ego non pedicator neque irrumator, sed pathicus est. Pedicator probus pulsat, verberat, pedicat, irrumatque me, quia ego puer improbus parvus est. Pedicator probus, quem ego amat et qui amat me, est magnus. Nomen pedicatoris Encolpius, nomen meum Giton est.

Est "irrumator" solum nomen viri qui irrumat puerum aut puellam? Num nomen pueri, quem vir irrumat, quoque est "irrumator"?

(I read a text that said "irrumator" specifically refers to a man who penetrates others orally, but in some online dictionaries it seems to be translated as "cocksucker", which would mean the opposite. I am confused whether it can mean both, or if the "cocksucker" is meant figuratively.)

>>24841160
I believe "cocksucker" would be "fellator".

>>24841160
* quem ego amo

>>24841173
thanks

>>24841160
Ego ... sum, non est

I'm such an idiot. I've bookmarked and downloaded probably hundreds of materials for languages in the last week or two, but didn't bother to structure it. Now I can't remember which book I saw talking about dative and ablative being opposites. So frustrating.

>>24840676
Italian Athenaze in my case

>>24840676
I was talking about the English version

>>24841197
That’s rather reductive, I think you’re better off without it

>>24841160
Whoever wrote this needs to nail their conjugations before they start writing gay erotica
>ego est
>quem ego amat

>>24840514
https://grbs.library.duke.edu/index.php/grbs/article/download/11391/4169/14001
this should help, it's an index of all the ligatures used

I still don't know how accentuation works

>>24842150
http://atticgreek.org/accent/accentuation.html

I wonder if borrowings like Sanhedrin are a good indication that at least for composites aspirated vowels kept their aspiration even within a word, so in this case for example were pronounced like συνἕδριον even by Greeks, despite the lack of accent at least in the system we got

Translation challenge:

Easy
Your charioteer is bad.
Those horses run fast but tire quickly.
It's not easy to shoot arrows from a horse.

Medium
Unless you have a better idea, follow my instructions.
He insisted that the shortest path towards the city was around the lake.
Had the earthquake not happened, perhaps the events leading to the fall of the state wouldn't have taken place.

Hard
At sunset, a small group of daring militiamen, having already approached the city walls on all sides without being spotted by the guards, once a signal was given and a distraction created, boldly threw themselves at the walls with ropes and other tools in order to quickly reach the top, hoping that at least some of them might be able to open the gates for the rest of the army to pour in.

>>24842845
>συνἕδριον
This shows the exact opposite of what you're trying to prove. They did not keep aspirates within words as their phonetic system does not allow for it.

>“I very much wish to see it. So don’t go (μὴ . . . ἴθι; put μὴ first in your sentence) to the field but take me to the city (τὸ ἄστυ).”

What verb would you guys put for the 'take me'?

>>24844078
κομίζειν? ἄγειν?

bump

>entire classical body of latin works is only 5 million words
lol, so like 3 series of fantasy novels.
Remind me why you learn this useless shit instead of classical chinese or sanskrit, hmm?

>>24846382
What percentage of that Classical Chinese was written by native Old Chinese speakers (i.e. the analog of the strict-sense Classical Latin corpus)?

>>24846386
Ding ding ding

>>24846382
Latin texts from the classical period are only about 5% of surviving Latin IIRC.

>>24846386
Everything from the Zhou, Qin, and Han dynasties which is a LOT - about 1250 years of history
Everything here: https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens can be considered the analogy to the strict classical Latin corpus
Plus a lot more from the Han dynasty which isn't notable enough
Chinese civilisation never collapsed like Rome did, texts from the ancient times are really well preserved and intact. They also form the core of the CC Corpus and the only really influential texts after that period are Buddhist stuff and Zhu Xi's commentary on the analects from the Song dynasty.

>>24843885
is droch do arae
rethait co lúath in eich, acht toirsegait co lúath
ní assae comrac n-amal Scithiach

>>24847155
oh, forgot an equivalent to 'those' in #2 and correction of article
rethait co lúath ind eich-se, acht toirsegait co lúath

>>24846382
>useless
Says genre slop reader

Translation challenge:

ayo dat fine shyt got dat gyatt ong fr fr

>>24843910
is that actually the case or are you basing that off orthography?

>>24846659
What about Sanskrit lmao

Hey guys here's my rendering of part of Beowulf into modern English

Hwīlum heaþorōfe hlēapan lēton
on geflit faran fealwe mēaras
ðǣr him foldwegas fægere þūhton
cystum cūðe. Hwīlum cyninges þegn
guma gilphlæden gidda gemyndig
sē ðe ealfela ealdgesegena
worn gemunde word ōþer fand
sōðe gebunden· secg eft ongan
sīð Bēowulfes snyttrum styrian
ond on spēd wrecan spel gerāde,
wordum wrixlan· wēlhwylc gecwæð
þæt hē fram Sigemunde secgan hyrde
ellendǣdum:

Yet whilom the hathe-roove ones let to leap
in flite to fare some fallow mares of theirs
where fold-ways were thought fair and so couth cust.
Yet whilom he the thane of Hrothgar king,
a gome of laden yelp and minding yeds,
who mouned alfele the worn of old ysains,
found other words bound too in sooth.
That seg ongan in sniter then to stir,
to wreak in speed the sith of Beowulf,
to wrixle with his words that ready spell;
and quoth he welwhich of the ellen-deeds
of Sigmund he’d heard said:

Also sanskrit and old chinese both > latin aesthetically and spiritually but a) you will have an easier time learning latin coming from an anglo or romance background and b) more "important" topics (except if you're into eastern religion) can be found in latin texts

>>24847572
Idk I've never studied Sanskrit

>>24847647
So is the point that you’re doing less of a “translation” and more of a literal modernization of the orthography/grammar while trying to preserve the old english roots as much as possible?

I wanted to learn a new language these next few years. Originally it was going to be Japanese, but now I'm thinking of Latin and maybe Spanish, since Japanese is rather intimidating. Any Japanese speakers in here who have good things to say about their experience? Everyone else I speak to in these types of circles/other boards who are learning Japanese are rather unsavory people who put each other down and seem to only watch anime and read manga.

>>24843885
ṛta adhikaṃ kalpanāṃ tve, anugaccha mama deśanāḥ
>unless a better idea be to you, carry out my instructions
yaṃ pratyupātiṣṭhat taṃ paṭho hrasiṣṭho'bhi nagaraṃ taṃ asāvāsta sagare pari
>what he insisted was that the shortest path to the city was that one around the lake
yadi bhūkampo na babhūva, tarhyapināma kalpāḥ saṃvartanāḥ patanāya rāṣṭrasya na babhūvuḥ
>if the earthquake had not been, then in all likelihood the events leading to the fall of the state would not have been
TIL that sanskrit didn't have a word for "maybe"

>>24847670
What, you can't read that? Lol
But yes that's the point. Many of these weird ass words survive dialectically in English too (flite, thane, fold, gome, seg, yed, ellen, etc.) so it's also a bit of a celebration of the vast dialectal variation in English via a text much older than the rest of the OE corpus and thus inextricably linked with the language itself. I have the first fifteen fitts done atp and I'm hoping to finish the whole thing by the end of 2026

>>24847155
Is this Old Irish?

>>24847393
Gunaika estin bella Kopros.

Perhaps if you wanted intentional misspelling -Gunaik E’tin Bellas kopros

>>24847826
If you are planning on spending a few years learning then maybe give Japanese a one month trial or something to see if you find it ok?

>>24847895
Yeah, or an attempt at it anyway. I'm still going through Stifter's Sengoídelc Old Irish for Beginnings.

>>24847647
interesting idea. do you suppose the way some of these dialectical fossils seem familiar or fitting is a kind of half-memory preserved in the phonemics of a language, or is it just self deception?

>>24847826
I studied Japanese because there were some untranslated manga that I wanted to read, and was able to start reading them with the help of a dictionary within a year, so for me it was worth it. Would not consider myself much of a Japanese speaker though.

>>24843885
子之车兵,非善也耳
彼马去速,却速而疲
坐马射箭,难哉!

除子之念于吾善外,从之。
劝吾往都甚捷之径,绕其湖也。
若地未震,国或不破

For the anons that have learnt Latin (at least some level of reading/writing), how difficult was the learning curve? Have you felt that Latin has impacted your ability to read in some way? I come from a romance language background and I want to get started with some classic lang and I assume Latin is the natural first pick.

>>24848766
The learning curve wasn't too bad but I learned ancient Greek first and that was a lot harder starting off. With Latin, I was able to transfer most of my grammatical knowledge since they're so similar, so from day one I got the overall picture of how the language functioned and just had to fill in the details through a lot of reading
>Have you felt that Latin has impacted your ability to read in some way?
I feel like it's strengthened my grip on some Latinate English words and loosened it on others because I start thinking about the original Latin meaning too much and lose sense of the English one :p

>>24848766
If you have a romance language background, and frankly even with English alone, Latin’s lexicon is really easy, the grammar just requires some patience. The usual advice which I followed to get into it was to just start with LLPSI Pars I: Familia Romana. Book covers all the core grammar in a reading-based text so you can get the core vocab/reading fluency down smoothly while learning grammar.

i found a cool book in the wild

>Qui quae quod quo quomodo quis quisquam quidquam umquam numquam

Fuck. Off.

>>24849360
Show us some pages

>>24848766
>learning curve
Wasn’t so bad to learn all the grammar/basic vocab needed to read Caesar and Cicero’s easy speeches, the most difficult thing is the discipline to do it daily
>impact ability to read
Yes, but not in a way that I couldn’t have also gained from a better English education in my youth

>>24849407
What which why whenever whoever however whysoever whichsoever…

>>24849407
Skill issue

greek would be better with the locative

I want to go into translation targeting untranslated latin works. What are the chances of some computer science guy blowing up this entire field? I've heard computers struggle with Latin right now

>>24850556
I figure if you have the text digitized an AI could dramatically reduce the workload but there’s a lot of human thought that goes into nuanced translation so most of the work would be like correcting a lesser Latinist’s work than like translating from scratch.

>>24850556
To expand on what I said earlier, I think like a lot of the fields AI is gonna boost productivity in, if employed properly it will make individual translators able to dramatically improve their pace/workflow, but fundamentally you still need to actually be proficient in Latin to produce anything of serious scholarly value by correcting any weird errors AI inevitably produces. Plus a lot of the work goes less into translating the easy uncontroversial stuff, but into the obscure or controversial vocabulary/wording that may be highly contextual to a specific author/time/place, and that’s where the human element would really shine.

Basically, a crafty translator could really augment his grunt work with AI, but it doesn’t really automate quality control away, which still requires a human. Like with many automating inventions it doesn’t really replace anyone outright, it makes individual workers more efficient.

I feel like the reading audience for patristic or scholastic or renaissance latin works or whatever you're thinking of wouldn't be interested in an AI generated translation. Similarly for academic use I'd imagine most people wouldn't want to build their own work on the uncertain foundation of AI translation.
On the other hand there was an article someone posted here a few months ago about how dogshit human Latinists are nowadays, producing very obvious translation errors like translating pauci as 'poor'.

>>24851012
> On the other hand there was an article someone posted here a few months ago about how dogshit human Latinists are nowadays, producing very obvious translation errors like translating pauci as 'poor'.
here's that article and conversation for reference
>>24490312

>>24851012
some phd was criticizing the new gen (millennials) of scholars by saying they were ctrl+f scholars, copy pasting someone else's research/arguments. this was before AI.

>>24846659
Surely texts from after that period still make up the considerable majority of total surviving texts by volume, though?

>>24850556
how does someone not associated with the church or the college even find untranslated or undiscovered works
if you're a total layman without a bachelors but you're self taught what are your options to pursue this

>>24851273
for classical stuff there isn't anything probably. later works there are probably mountains worth.
random example I just tried now:
1. I went to wikipedia and entered Category:8th_century in the search bar
2. I navigated down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:8th-century_English_writers
3. I picked one at random, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecgbert_of_York
4. skimming through the article I see his work Dialogus ecclesiasticae institutionis mentioned
5. I google for and find no translations or even latin texts, which is promising
6. the Wikipedia article says the manuscript it's from, Vitellius A xii of the Cottonian library, so I google that and get https://iiif.biblissima.fr/collections/manifest/c385e4e9b2777296210beaa03b470b0622fc9200
7. I click the Go to viewer button to see the facsimile
8. I select the page referenced in the wikipedia article
9. I google some of the text to see if anyone transcribed it previously and it didn't come up in the earlier search, and get nothing, again promising for original work
Now, I don't know medieval latin and I don't know palaeography either, so I won't embarrass myself with bad work. But having gone through these steps I have something in my hands now that I could hypothetically do original work with.
Obviously the wikipedia article listing the manuscript was a huge help, but now that I'm aware that the that volume of the Cottonian library has digital facismilies at biblissima.fr and probably other volumes, and that noone has done anything with them, I can start exploring from the manuscript to find other texts rather than starting from wikipedia.

>>24851474
ah, I was wrong about the latin text not being transcribed or published anywhere. google books shows various editions, I thought books results would surface in normal google search. still don't see a translation anywhere though.

>>24851061
yes, but most of them are not written in proper Classical Chinese, they use some vernacular vocabulary like 争 for 安 or 俾 instead of implied passive.
Also you have to remember that people were still using Classical Chinese as the only written language until 1919. The Han dynasty collapsed in 200, so that's like 1700 years of writing AFTER the 1200 years of “pure" classical Chinese

>>24852117
Primary, not only, but yes, I'm aware. People were using Latin as a primary written language for quite a while too.

>>24837194 (OP)
>chatgpt can translate Latin and Ancient Greek
How accurate is it?

>>24852124
last time I checked it can be pretty damn good, sometimes doing the challenges I fed it the translation I did back to see how it translates it into english and it's usually very good

>>24843885
κακὸς ὁ σὸς ἡνίοχος
ἐκεῖνοι οἱ ἵπποι ταχεῖς ἀλλὰ ταχύκμητοι
οὐ ῥᾳδία ἡ ἱπποτοξεία

ἐὰν μὴ βελτίον' ἔχεις βουλήν, τοῖς τέταχα πείθου
διισχυρίζετο τὴν βραχυτάτην εἰς ἄστ' ἀτραπὸν περίβολον τῇ λίμνῃ εἶναι
εἰ μὴ 'γένετ' ὁ σεισμός, ἴσως οὐκ ἄν ξυνέβη τὰ τὴν πολιτείαν μέλλοντα διαφθείρειν ξυμφορὰ

ἡλίου καταδύντος σμικρὸς λόχος τις ψιλῶν ἤδη πανταχοῦ τὰ τείχη περιβεβληκὼς καὶ τοὺς φύλακας λεληθώς, ὡς ταραχὴν προσεποιοῦντο καὶ ἐσήμηνεν, τολμηρῶς πρὸς τὰ τείχη 'δραμον σπάρτα καὶ ἄλλ' ὄργαν' ἔχοντες ὅπως ὡς τάχιστα ὑπερβαίνοιεν, ἐλπίζοντες τοὐλάχιστόν τιν' ἀυτῶν δύνασθαι τὰς πύλας ἀνοίξειν τῷ λοιπῷ στόλῳ ἵν' εἰσπίπτοι
made up new word ταχύκμητος

Unbelievably frustrated that I can't find Thorkelin's Latin-Old English Beowulf parallel translation from 1815. It seems to only exist in the form of a couple non-digitized volumes being auctioned off for exorbitant sums to private collectors and perhaps in a couple college libraries.

It's unfortunate both because, as an early studier of the text, Thorkelin is supposed to have had access to certain readings that have since been lost, and because I figured since English is my native language, doing Latin-OE would let me much more directly map grammar (especially case endings) over to get into OE [which is probably best for just doing the Wessex gospels anyways].

Aeschylus is so great. I love Sophocles too, but he just doesn't compare. Best not talk about Euripides

>>24837194 (OP)
Here is a short documentary film on Hippocrates and Greek medicine I thought some of you might enjoy. GER Lloyd from this video is the translator of Greek for Hippocrates in the Penguin classics edition

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u1RHCarlm5c&pp=ygUuSGVhbHRoIGFuZCBIZWFsaW5nIGluIEFuY2llbnQgR3JlZWNlIGFuZCBDaGluYQ%3D%3D

>Aeschylus has no bounds.
>He is rough, abrupt, excessive, incapable of gentle slopes, almost ferocious, with a grace all his own that resembles the flowers of wild places, haunted less by nymphs than by the Eumenides, of the Titans' party, among the goddesses choosing the dark ones, and smiling sinisterly at the Gorgons, sons of the earth like Othryx and Briareus, and ready to resume the climb against the upstart Jupiter.
>Aeschylus is the ancient mystery made flesh; something like a pagan prophet. His work, if we had it all, would be a kind of Greek Bible.

I guess Sumerian falls under a category of "classical" languages by virtue of becoming a purely liturgical language long before most of the languages itt appeared in written records, so I'd like to share my experience of getting acquainted with it. I do not learn it, but did complete a full first lesson of A Manual of Sumerian Grammar and Texts by Hayes (2nd edition, 2000).

>>24853104
Which of his works is this from?

>>24853147
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare_(Victor_Hugo)/I/II

>>24853155
Merci!

>>24853121
If anybody's interested I can provide a list of recommended literature from Russian 2ch thread created by some Sumerian enthusiast. The reason why I picked this textbook despite it being a bit dated is that it taught cuneiform and not just transcription.

Lesson structure is pretty standard - first it introduces the new vocabulary. Sumerian script is syllabo-logographic, so depending on the context a character may designate a word (logogram) or used as a syllable for its phonetic value.

>>24853165
Many characters have several context-dependent readings and meanings. To differentiate multiple homophones, each character with the same pronunciation is assigned a numerical index (written below and to the right). Indices are assigned based on character frequency in Akkadian texts due to the fact that Assyriologists first deciphered Akkadian and carried this system over to transcribing Sumerian and other cuneiform languages like Hittite.

This system is handy because it allows to look up the same character in dictionaries of different languages by the same transcription and index even though it may have different meanings and phonetic values.

>>24853121
>>24853165
>>24853202
Isn't most of the written record a catalog of farmer receipts? The letters seem cool though

>>24853205
>Isn't most of the written record a catalog of farmer receipts
I understand what you're getting at of course, but isn't this true of any given language?

>>24853005
is this what you're after?
>https://archive.org/details/dedanorumrebusg01thorgoog/page/n32/mode/2up

>>24853202
It's important to note that over more than three millenia characters' shape underwent an evolution from earliest pictogtaphic forms to highly simplified and abstract (not unlike Chinese characters), so the precise character shape is dependent on the era, dialect and medium (epigraphy or clay tablets). This textbook used the style of the third dynasty of Ur; for my own curiosity's sake I've also written up Old Babylonian forms (they are taught in an esteemed Akkadian textbook "A Grammar of Akkadian" by Huehnergard, if anyone is interested).

>>24853205
Kinda but also I agree with >>24853217

>>24853257
Vocabulary section ia followed by extensive lexical commentary.

>>24853269
Lexical section is followed by an autograph of the text studied in the given lesson. This is a pretty early style, more pictogtaphic, but I did manage to recognize the first four characters 𒀭 𒋀𒆠 𒈗.

>>24853282
Unfortunately, the pdf is a poor scan, so photos are of poor quality. There are resources that contain corpora of Sumerian and Akkadian texts with transcriptions, photos, and drawings of clay tablets though.

>>24853293
The text is then followed by its transliteration, transcription (in earlier posts I errouneously mixed it up with transliteration), and translation. Superscript letters in transliteration are determinatives (senantic cues) used to designates specific noun classes (deities, locations etc). These characters can be used phonetically in other contexts, but when used as determinatives they are never pronounced, and only impart meaning. The same convention is carried over into Akkadian, Hittite and other languages which used cuneiform and made use of Sumerian loanwords.

The closest modern equivalent of a determinative could be semantic radicals in Chinese characters that don't reflect pronunciation but convey a general meaning. E.g. like 铜 tong2 "copper" composed of semantic radical 钅jin1 "metal" which can be used on its own as 金 "gold", and phonetic 同 tong2 "together".

>>24853323
Explanation of grammar, morphology, syntax.

>>24853332
Since the book was published in 2000, it's not up to date regarding the modern knowledge of Sumerian. For example, in section regarding the verbal prefix /mu/ 𒈬 it suggests it may denote the closeness in time or space to speaker.

>>24853350
But a more recent "Introduction to the Grammar of Sumerian" by Gabor Zolyomi (2018) definitely states this prefix denotes spatial closeness or direction towards the speaker. The big downside of this book is that it doesn't use cuneiform at all. So if I continued the study of Sumerian, I'd use Hayes' as the primary textbook and would consult Zolyomi's regarding specific grammar points after each lesson.

Sumerian is still missing in the FAQ, if you have some concise recs, both books and links, I'll add them there t. FAQanon

>>24853361
To give some sense how the writing system works, here's the phrase
UR-ᵈNAMMU LUGAL-URIM5ᵏi-MA-KE4

transliterated:
Ur.Nammu lugal.Urim.ak.e

and written in cuneiform:
𒌨𒀭𒇉𒈗𒋀𒀊𒆠𒈠𒆤

𒌨 /ur/ means "man",
𒀭 ᵈ is a silent determinative preceding deities' names (can also be syllabic /an/ in other contexts),
𒇉 /nammu/ is the name of goddess Nammu.
Ur-Nammu roughly means "man of goddess Nammu" (iirc genetive markers aren't used in personal names).

𒈗 /lugal/ is "king";
𒋀𒀊 /urim/ or /uri/ is the city of Ur;
𒆠ᵏi is a silent determinative following toponyms (can also mean "country" /ki/ on its own);
𒈠/ma/ and 𒆤 /ke/ are used purely phonetically to write the genetive suffix /-ak/ and the transitive verb subject marker /e/ (Sumerian is split-ergative so it doesn't mark objects of the transitive verbs). Due to the constraints of the syllabographic script, 𒈠/ma/ is used because it reduplicates the last consonant in 𒋀𒀊 /urim/ and contains the first sound of the suffix /ak/, while 𒆤 /ke/ is used because it contains the last sound of the suffix /ak/ and the entire marker /e/. So, both of these characters are used phonetically but cover more than one morpheme each.
Together it means "Ur-Nammu, king of Ur [acted on something]".

>>24853370
I'll write it up tomorrow.

>>24853121
>>24853165
>>24853202
>>et al.
Based.
Suppose I have zero interest in archeology or doing research, ever: Editions of major Sumerian texts all include transcription, right? So there's little reason to get good at cuneiform if I only want to read some major literary compositions.
Speaking of which, what are those? I know about Inanna's Descent to the Underworld, The Matter of Aratta, and a couple of Gilgamesh poems. But there's nothing as towering as the Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh, or is there? I'm also wondering how big the required vocabulary is, if one restricts oneself to those texts.
Finally, did you look Akkadian before, as most Sumerian learners seem to be doing?

>>24853570
>transcribed:
>Ur.Nammu lugal.Urim.ak.e
Damn, today I constantly mix up transcription and transliteration.

>>24853589
>Editions of major Sumerian texts all include transcription, right?
I'm not sure about whole works per se, but the corpora of the transliterated tablets, photos and autographs are freely available.
>So there's little reason to get good at cuneiform
Putting aside my personal affection for unusual writing systems, it *appears so*, but I have absolutely zero authority on the matter as I do *not* learn this language at the time. But speaking from my experience with Arabic or Chinese, learning the writing system helps a lot in establishing mental link between the form and content.
>>24853589
>I know about Inanna's Descent to the Underworld, The Matter of Aratta, and a couple of Gilgamesh poems.
I could add Epic of Ninurta to that list. I didn't read it though, but watched an interview with a Russian Sumerologist who authored this translation in Russian, and I found this a very interesting subject.

But yeah, Akkadian does appear to contain a richer literary corpus.

>Finally, did you look Akkadian before, as most Sumerian learners seem to be doing?
As a matter of fact, yes, I did. That's how I know about Huehnergard's Akkadian textbook. It was a long time ago, just did a couple of lessons. Similar in many regards to Modern Standard Arabic lol - more so than I imagined. But it was a self-contained endeavor, not related to Sumerian which didn't interest me at the time.

I really like latin but it tires my brain twice as fast as any other mental exercise man

>>24853692
Thanks.
I actually like writing systems as well, it's just that Akkadian and Sumerian cuneiform appears to be as insane as the Japanese writing system. I'd surely put some work into understanding the principles, but I'm fine stopping at that point; Sumerian grammar seems nightmarish enough.

Ad Graecas literas totum animum applicui; statimque, ut pecuniam acceptero, Graecos primum auctores, deinde vestes emam.

From Chesterton's Autobiography
> To me, the ancient capital letters of the Greek alphabet - the great Theta, a sphere barred across the midst like Saturn, or the great Upsilon, standing up like a tall curved chalice - have still a quite unaccountable charm and mystery, as if they were the characters traced in wide welcome over Eden of the dawn. The ordinary small Greek letters, though I am now much more familiar with them, seem to me quite nasty little things, like a swarm of gnats. As for Greek accents, I triumphantly succeeded, through a long series of school-terms, in avoiding learning them at all; and I never had a higher moment of gratification than when I afterwards discovered that the Greeks never learnt them, either. I felt, with a radiant pride, that I was as ignorant as Plato and Thucydides. At least they were unknown to the Greeks who wrote the prose and poetry that was thought worth studying, and were invented by grammarians, I believe, at the time of the Renaissance. But it is a simple psychological fact that the sight of a Greek capital still fills me with happiness, the sight of a small letter with indignation tinged with dislike, and the accents with righteous indignation reaching the point of profanity.
> And I believe that the explanation is that I learnt the large Greek letters, as I learnt the large English letters, at home. I was told about them merely for fun while I was still a child; while the others I learnt during the period of what is commonly called education; that is, the period during which I was being instructed by somebody I did not know, about something I did not want to know.

>>24854406
Incidentally I found that quote after a google search for a line from The Man Who was Thursday lead me on an interesting goose chase. The line:
> We wept, we fled in terror; the iron entered into our souls—and you are the peace of God!
brought to my attention that "the iron entered into our souls" is a rare translation of a line from Psalm 104/105:
> YLT: They have afflicted with fetters his feet, Iron hath entered his soul,
which is otherwise translated as for example:
> NIV: They bruised his feet with shackles, his neck was put in irons,
That comes from
> Vulgate: Humiliaverunt in compedibus pedes ejus; ferrum pertransiit animam ejus:
> Septuagint: ἐταπείνωσαν ἐν πέδαις τοὺς πόδας αὐτοῦ σίδηρον διῆλθεν ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ
> Masoretic text: עִנּוּ בַכֶּבֶל רגליו בַּרְזֶל, בָּאָה נַפְשׁוֹ
The Latin and Greek texts seem to have the sense that the subject (Joseph)'s life-breath passed through an iron collar. I can't speak for the Hebrew, and Young apparently is a competent Hebraist so maybe that allows a different reading, and maybe rabbinical tradition holds to that reading. It did make me curious where Chesterton would have gotten that, but I ultimately couldn't confirm it was the YLT.

>>24853121
Great series of posts, thanks anon. That's not a mountain I'm ready to tackle now but I'll save it for future reference.

>>24854448
Also a third interpretation, I saw a commentator say that the hebrew nefesh can just be a metonym for the person, so we get also translations like
> KJV: Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron
with no reference to breath or soul or the neck

>>24854448
wait I just reread the vulgate and it has animam as acc rather than anima, I'm retarded. he got it from the vulgate then.

>>24854482
or more likely the book of common prayer, which has:
> Whose feet they hurt in the stocks: the
iron entered into his soul;

how wrong would it be if when translating from english to attic to look for the word in an example sentence and just copy the accents as is?

>>24853370
== translating the list of recommendations from the 2nd /fl/ thread on Sumerian; my comments are marked with *these* ==
Beginner-intermediate textbooks:
1) "Introduction to Sumerian Grammar" by Daniel A. Foxvog - simple explanations, provides examples to illustrate subjects
2) "An Introduction to the Grammar of Sumerian" by Gábor Zólyomi - *comprehensive, up-to-date (2018) compendium of Sumerian grammar; I'd advise to use it as a supplement to a beginner textbook; freely available online*.
3) "A Manual of Sumerian Grammar and Texts" by John Hayes - *definitely a great book that teaches both the language and cuneiform; there are three editions; I used the 2nd (2000) which is the latest I could find online but it's somewhat dated; there is the 3rd (2018) which I would recommend to go for*
4) "The Sumerian Language: An Introduction to Its History and Grammatical Structure" by Marie-Louise Thomsen - *no comments; appears to be dated with editions dating back to 1984 and 2001*
5) "Шyмepcкий язык" by Кaнeвa И. T. - in Russian; weaker than the previous books but it covers certain subjects which are little explained in other books (prepositional constructions, for example)

Advanced textbooks:
1) "A descriptive grammar of Sumerian" by Bram Jagersma - one of the best textbooks, the most detailed explanations, an extended range of themes; not easy to get into it but it's worth it;
2) "Sumerian Grammar" by Dietz Otto Edzard - recommended as an excellent textbook.

Online conjugators of the Sumerian verbs (requires knowledge of how the Sumerian verb is conjugated):
1) http://www.gilgamesh.ch/svc/svc.html?docu=1 - also contains useful Sumerian Verb Analyser;
2) https://sumerianconjugator.netlify.app/

Online dictionaries:
1) http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/epsd2/sux
2) http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/nepsd-frame.html
3) https://situx.github.io/SemanticDictionary/

Cuneiform fonts:
http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/doc/help/visitingoracc/fonts/

Other tools:
1) Qantuppi (Sumerian Cuneiform Input Aid; https://qantuppi.kurnugia.com/) - allows to search cuneiform signs by inputting their Latin transliteration;
2) Kurnugia - Cuneiform Script Analyzer (https://app.kurnugia.com/) - list of cuneiform characters and their possible transliterations for Sumerian and Akkadian;
3) Unofficial EPSD2 Rapid Searcher https://hubur.kurnugia.com/ - searches words on the epsd2 site; enter a word and you'll get one or several variants; search is more convenient than on the epsd2 site;

YouTube channels:
1) Digital Hammurabi https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBQo27DbqeB-xG17-kekrdQ - beginner Sumerian grammar course;
2) Learn Hieratic & Sumerian https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVndO84aMjd6W4OAQ3Q3nXg - appears to be more detailed than the previous course.
== to cont. ==

>>24855043
== continued ==
Text corpora (hymns, prayers, tales):
1) ETCSL - The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/
2) ETCSRI - http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/etcsri/corpus
*the next few are some corpus sites I found during my own search*
3) CDLI - Cuneiform Digital Library Initiative https://cdli.earth/ - contains a vast archive of cuneiform tablets with photos, lineart copies, and transliteration in Sumerian, Akkadian, Hittite and other languages;
4) EBL - Electronic Babylonian Library https://www.ebl.lmu.de/ - doesn't contain info on Sumerian but it has a rich sign list, dictionary, corpus of text for Assyrian and Babylonian dialects of Akkadian coupled with extensive list of cuneiform character variations in tablets;

Blogs:
1) https://sumerianlanguage.tumblr.com/

Miscellaneous:
1) http://lexicity.com/language/sumerian/ - aggregator of materials on extinct/classical languages; many links are dead but it has basic information and names of what to search for.

FAQ updated, I shortened some things here and there but wow, thanks Sumerianon, now Sumerian is maybe one of the best covered languages in the FAQ

>>24854941
if it's a word in the same case, number, tense, etc... then maybe you could get a wrong grave in the last vowel in place of an acute and viceversa I guess
learn the accents anon

should I simultaneously study the basics of Latin and also write and translate some short sentences from real books like that of Aquinas?

>>24854406
Finally, vindication of my gut reaction to how fuck ugly accents are.

>>24854406
>that the Greeks never learnt them, either
g-guys is this true????

>>24855346
yeah but it's a dumb as shit comment, Greeks were native speakers so they didn't need them, they were made precisely for non-natives learning the language as second tongue AND, clearly, the musicality of how natives sounded must've been important enough to warrant such a system

>>24855171
𒋗𒌌𒈬𒌝!

>>24854448
The root for "soul" (N-PH-SH) means "throat" depending on context. It's not the most common meaning in Biblical Hebrew, but that root's use in other ancient Semitic languages shows that the meaning of soul/life-breath is derived from an earlier meaning of throat or windpipe.

>>24855346
True for Plato and Thucydides, false in taking them to originate in the Renaissance. They date from the Alexandrian period and become more common during the late Roman period.

More importantly what does The Bald Man, the sole authority of classical languages, think of accents? Is he for their use or against?

>>24855212
sure, if Aquinas is to your taste that seems fine, much of this whole process is keeping oneself entertained and motivated to keep going

In pic related (examples are from "Lingua Latina per se illustrata" chapter V p. 38, which introduces the ablative), are the suffixes which I marked as "genetivus (?)" (yellow with black line below) actually the genitive endings, and if so, why is the genitive used here instead of the suffixes agreeing with the ablative like in the other cases?
If so, would it also possible to use the ablative endings, i.e.:
> In horto Iulio. In hortis Italiis.
> In villa Iulia (this one seems definitely wrong).
and how would the meaning change?
Something like "In hortis Italiae" = "In (the) gardens of Italy" vs. "In hortis Italiis" = "In (the) Italian gardens" etc.?
If not, why are the suffixes marked yellow different in the examples?

>>24855612
"In horto Iulio" would be "In Julius the garden", i.e. Julius is a garden/the garden is called Julius. "In Italian gardens" would be "in hortis italicis".

>>24855612
this is just a case of noun vs adjective, the ones you marked in yellow are indeed genitive but are nouns, compare e.g english "the states of America" or "America's states" vs "the american states", the nouns needs the genitive
if you wanted to express the same meaning with adjectives agreeing with the preceding noun you'd have to look for the corresponding adjective: for Italia it's easy, Italicus, -a, -um, for personal names it's a bit harder but there are also ways to derive adjectives from nouns, for example the "gens Iulia" takes its Iulia as an adjective of first name Iulius, for Marcus(noun) it would be Marcius, -a, -um, etc...

>>24855635
>of first name Iulius
*Iulus, the mythical founder if one takes the myth seriously

also needless to say for nouns the meaning would be understood differently anyway, "in horto Iulii" you are just saying in the garden of some Iulius, "in horto Iulio" would be understood more like "in the garden of the gens Iulia"

>>24855632
>>24855635
>>24855642
Thank you, that makes sense (I think).

>>24850450
>he doesn't know

>>24853692
Where are you finding photos and autographs of the tablets? I usually can only find transliterations (e.g. ORACC).

>>24855717
>>24855054
nevermind I should just have read the rest of the thread lmao.

>>24855612
It’s because the genitive here is basically acting as a possessive.

I.E. “in the garden of Julius” or “in Julius’s garden”

So to my understanding you shouldn’t need to say the ablative twice because Julius isn’t an adjective, but a noun. If it was “in the big garden” it would then agree in case and be “in horto magno”

Or something.

>>24854406
>I believe, at the time of the Renaissance
People keep arguing that they were developed earlier but I've never seen evidence of it.

>>24855425
>They date from the Alexandrian period and become more common during the late Roman period
Show me some evidence. Pretty sure Mastronarde dates them to the Byzantine period, and I haven't even seen evidence of that.

>>>24855356
>clearly, the musicality of how natives sounded must've been important enough to warrant such a system

Dionysius Thrax mentions them in the 2nd cent. BC. He doesn't say every word had them, just that there were three tones. Grammarians took it upon themselves to endow every single word with them, and change positions based on a seven rule set and an additional ruleset for contracts that conflicts with the seven rule set. Honestly I think the whole thing is bunk from a historical perspective.

>>24853692
>>Editions of major Sumerian texts all include transcription, right?
>I'm not sure about whole works per se, but the corpora of the transliterated tablets, photos and autographs are freely available.
...So how do we know what Sumerian is actually supposed to say if the phonology is totally different than Akkadian yet there is no Rosetta stone for Sumerian? I won't even bring up the fact that the Akkadian Rosetta stone was found after translations were being made.

Yes, I'm saying it's all made up but I'm hoping you can recover the situation.

in simple terms can i think of prepositions as being like

Genitive: A -------->
Dative: in A
Accusative: ---------> A

>>24855865
Accusative: point your finger
Dative: add "for" before it
Genitive: add "of" before it
Ablative: add "with" before it

>>24855865
not sure I fully grasp your arrows analogy, I think you are referring to Greek? if so, basically, yes insofar as the genitive took on the original function of the ablative, so G-D-A => from-in-to, sort of

Would be really cool if some scholar would bother to digitize the mongolian translation of the Janua Linguarum so I could get into classical mongolian.

>>24855819
I found this in a textbook. Never bothered to track down a citation.

>>24855903
ok cool

>>24854406
I agree 100% that Greek uppercase letters are gorgeous and angular, like blocks of marble, while greek lowercase letters make my eye bleed and are the root of all evil eastern squiggly alphabets.

>>24854406
I would say something but these were the same lads using English pronunciation on Latin

>>24856095
Pronouncing Latin like it was English or French or Polish or whatever was peak sovl

>>24855911
>translations to other Asian languages (Turkish, Persian, Mongolian and Armenian) were prepared but no copy of them exists.[5]

>>24856122
It really should be Sisero not Kickero

>>24855823
Philomen Probert's writings. Some 2nd century papyri have the accent diacritics of Aristophanes of Byzantium.

Does anyone know what form Loeb's Iliad is in?

>>24855967
That can't be right. The 7th c. AD is the start of the medieval dark age.

>>24856338
>Some 2nd century papyri have the accent diacritics
Does he mention them by name? Does he ever produce pictures or reproductions?

>>24856667
He cites P. Oxy. xv. 1790 as the earliest surviving papyri using accent diacritics, and cites E.G. Turner's Greek Manuscripts of the Ancient World.

Just go on Anna's Archive and download Probert's Ancient Greek Accentuation, the entire first chapter is him setting forward the kinds of evidence for how accent was recognized and when systems of diacritics were developed and increasingly used.

>>24856998
Turns out it's a she, but if we saw we couldn't tell anyways. As for secondary sources,they're useless. Only the primary source matters. Otherwise we're just collecting repeated claims. Oxy. Xv 1790 is a good find. After reviewing it, I thought I had seen to acute markers, but one review of it mentioned a grave marker that I just don't even see.

https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:dfb8039d-f9bb-4de8-8feb-d8dd0a2159eb/files/rjm214p19w

>>24857340
*Two acute markers

>>24857491
page alignment is fucked in the pdf viewer but you get the point

>>24857340
Well, she's citing the secondary because it has pictures of a host of papyri including the fragment in question. Picrel, which has a transcription that includes the marks that can be made out. Of extant papyri with diacritics, she says, "Accented papyri mostly do not carry accents on every word but sporadically; the frequency with which accent marks are used varies widely with the papyrus. Where there are few accent marks, in particular, one can sometimes see that the words marked with accents are those for which the accent can help to resolve a potential ambiguity. In other cases it is not clear why a particular word has been marked with an accent. In some accented papyri, the accents are not by the first hand (cf. Turner 1987: 11); this means that even if a papyrus can be dated, the date when the accents were added is not automatically given. The accent marks in papyri look similar to those of manuscripts and printed books. As in manuscripts and printed books, there are three accentual marks in use: acute, circumflex, and grave. Various different systems of marking accents are found in papyri, and not all accented papyri employ one system with consistency. For example, all syllables preceding the accented syllable may be marked with a grave, the accented syllable and any following syllables being left unmarked, or the accented syllable may be marked with an acute or circumflex while all preceding syllables are marked with a grave, or the accented syllable may be marked with an acute or circumflex while only the immediately preceding syllable is marked with a grave."

>>24858639
>and not all accented papyri employ one system with consistency
Or at all. My beefs are as follows:
>The very picture you show has a macron over a delta and also an omicron, it's not certain what the editors could have meant by that
>The early samples of words with accents do not have them over every word, only a few of all of the words (contrast that with today, where EVERY word has an accent mark)
>You say that the circumflex was the third accent, which is the longest and fullest of accents as it requires a rising and a falling intonation, but Dionysius Thrax calls the third tone a "broken" tone, in other words it needs to be the shortest by definition. A broken tone also implies length was part of the consideration for accent and could not be employed over intrinsically long vowels such as omega and eta

If you write a paper on this I bet it'll get a decent impact factor.

>>24837194 (OP)
>Τι, αν επισταται τις τινι, ειδειη;

Does this mean the following?
>What, if someone is an expert at something, should he know?

Is it correct?

>>24860061
broadly I think so, this sounds like one of those Socratic questions dealing precisely with the distinction between how Greeks understood those different words broadly translatable "know", albeit IIRC in the case of Plato ἐπίσταμαι + ἐπιστήμη are the stronger certainties

>>24860172
>this sounds like one of those Socratic questions dealing precisely with the distinction between how Greeks understood those different words
Yeah, I've been reading a lot of Xenophon and Plato lately and I wanted to take a note in my notebook.

>Quaestio: Cur pueri Iuliam rident?
>Responsum meum: Ii eam rident, quia ea sine rosis suis non pulchra, sed foeda est.
Estne responsum meum verum?
(The answer should mean: They laugh at the girl because, without her (own) roses, she is not beautiful, but ugly.)

>>24860491
bene scripsisti
P.S nescio num librum quem legis te hoc iam commonuerit sed opus tibi non est "ii" et "ea" sententiis addere sicut lingua anglica

>>24860566
Gratias tibi ago.
>nescio num librum quem legis te hoc iam commonuerit
Non liber meus "Lingua Latina per se illustrata", sed liber meus grammaticus "A Companion to Familia Romana" me commonuit (in capitulo quattuor, ecce!)
Iam lego capitulum sex libri agoque exercitia capituli quinque.

>>24858723
this doesn't happen (in the italian edition)

>>24860776
i should maybe switch from the english edition i guess

How can you tell what indefinite pronoun τινα takes in a sentence?

>>24862058
I don't get the question

I have read zero pages of Mastronarde's textbook today. I plan to get myself some Attic lit and a copy of Homer this Christmas.

Is anyone on a similar track?

>>24862405
I'm slogging through Plato, I'm not too inspired lately, I think once I finish this book I'm going back to some poetry or plays

>>24853121
Do your studies involve the pictograph economy that predated literature? I like those glyphs more than even Egyptian heiroglyphs.

>>24862451
I am interested first in his Phaedo and his Politea. I will tack on Homer and Herodotus to hit the regional accents, and then circle back once fluent into Drama and the rest. I attempted Athenaze a while ago, but realized I failed to continue because it is a hateful textbook. I will succeed with my new one but have yet to set a schedule. You may see me here for the next few weeks.

What Plato are you reading?

>>24862498
the Phaedo actually; I like Plato's prose, it's what drove me to read more(I had read the Crito because some anon had posted some passage here IIRC), I'm not so much invested in the philosophical content(even though it's good I am checking it out at least a bit), that's probably what has made it a bit sloggish
Homer remains by far what has made learning the language worth it so good luck

>>24862491
>Do your studies involve the pictograph economy
My what involve what?

>>24862649
You are learning Sumerian. The akkadian-style cuneiform is a practical and stylized version of earlier pictographs used for labeling and communicating basic concepts, but not a phonetic language.

you can check out the Vinca writings too. pre-city-state semiotics and economy.

>>24862618
You are an inspiration. I have read Bloom's translation of Part 1 of Politea, and he maybe ironizes Socrates too hard in translation. The discourse at play is lovely. He seems to set up for Socrates elaborating on how a human should behave in terms of political action or ethics or something. I chose to save the rest for when I finally can read Attic. Supposedly that classic "cave allegory" is socrates relating something to his greater political irony.

I am also somewhat interested in Timaeus. There is a scene where the sun descends upon humans metaphysically and it seems like an interesting thing to consider. Really heavy platonic confusion.

>>24862789
I explicitly said in the very same post that I do not learn it.

>phonetic language
This phrase literally doesn't make sense.

>>24863060
I have failed the community. I will study it myself before I talk anymore.

>>24863060
It's not a term that a linguist would use, but it seems pretty obvious that when people use it it generally means "a language whose written form has a fairly straightforward correspondence between graphemes and phonemes".

bread breed bred
read red read
free fred freed

>>24863442
Sneed feed seed

I have memorized the luo paradigm to the point that I can write it from memory on a piece of paper and now I am doing my best to memorize the athematics, I also just bought Smyth's Greek Grammar and I'm going to read and reread sections on basic grammar, I also know Latin so most of the basic concepts are familiar

What do you recommend I do after immersing myself in Smyth for a while? I just hate fake texts, I can't stand textbooks.

>>24864022
>I just hate fake texts, I can't stand textbooks.
start Loebmaxxing

What are the highlights of studying Latin?
I want to study Latin as a medievalist and francophile but I haven't actually read any Roman literature besides the Eclogues

>>24864022
> I just hate fake texts, I can't stand textbooks.
If you know German, Zuntz Griechischer Lehrgang is a textbook whose author shares your view and only contains authentic excerpts.

>>24864420
Horace, Virgil and Tacitus. The rest is poor imitation of Greek stuff

>>24864826
I think Plautus improves on Menander.

>>24863095
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off as a jerk. I'm very intrigued that someone's actually interested in Sumerian.

>>24863437
I guess so.

Is adding -μενος etc basically adding ...ing to the end of a verb?

Like σπεύδω - hurry
turns into
σπεύδοµεν - hurrying?

Is there a book or online resource I can use to learn about why texts differ (e.g. Perseus omits or removes a conjunction, Loeb keeps it or adds one), the classification of the differences, how scholars decide which text to correct or admit/omit, why annotations say text that’s bracketed should or should not be translated and why, and so on?

anyone know where i might find Repetitorium der griechischen Syntax?

>>24865328
the name of what you're talking about is textual criticism. you might try looking up classics grad school programs and trying to find the syllabus of a relevant class.

>>24837194 (OP)
>haven't used my greek in 3 years and essentially forgot everything
Do I need to work through a textbook again or should I just read some text and look things up as needed? Which book would be good for this?

Megananon, I have a .pdf of this text I'd like to make available for others on the MEGA if possible.

https://archive.org/details/synopsislatinaqu0000unse/mode/2up

Wat do?

I got this text for myself because I'm at a point where I can comprehend it without training wheels. The past 3 days I have been reading anywhere from 40-60 pages of Latin a day, but typically my approach is 80% rereading 20% new text.

I also distilled the data on inflectional endings in
https://liturgyscholar.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Diederich-1939-Frequency-of-Latin-Words.pdf
into a couple pages for my own use after reading the book, which might be worth sharing. It's of the "reading method" of 100 years ago, i.e. sorting/teaching word endings by possible meaning rather than by formal Latin grammar, then introducing formal grammar as a tool for output rather than for reading comprehension. The book's main unique finding as one of the first frequency studies was that something like 18 endings covered like 92.5% of written Latin, and a further 22 "rare" endings would bring a beginner learner up to 99.3% coverage.

>>24866061
post a link to the pdf and Ill add it to the Mega

>>24865925
Ty anon

Should I learn the Fraktur script? How actually widely is it used in classical German texts?

>>24865222
Not exactly, -μενος is specifically the passive/middle participle. The active participle would be σπεύδων.

>I'm 200 pages in of logos and 100 pages in of athenaze,
>started reading anabasis, because fuck reading about what Apollonios family names are.
> get filtered hard

will it get any easier after this or should i stick to finishing the textbooks?

>>24866685
Why don’t you just go read some easy Koine like one of the gospels or something? There’s always going to be a big difference in approaching native text vs pedagogical texts and that initial hump is hard.

How is Logos?

Maybe this could be added to the OP or something

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GRqF6EllCoN1Z5HQ4OqMAHEp8Fb92KLeOKnxeVl--mM/edit?tab=t.0

>>24866789
> read some easy Koine like one of the gospels or something?

while this may make sense to you and this might be the preferred route, this is also like saying whats the point in reading the greeks first just read sartre instead.

I want to start chronologically so I can better appreciate the nuances of the language as well as the changes it had. Of course reading the Bible in its original is my main goal, but I feel I'd fall short or I'd not get really the nitty gritty of it if I dont have a previous more fundamental background of the language.

Regarding logos it's way more fun and dynamic than stale old athenaze. Though dude most of the times throws in words that weren't previously explained. You'd need to rely heavily on ChatGPT though.
For example how certain words were normally previously used and their meaning, and how the christians appropriated and changed them according to their worldview. That nuance is what I am after.

>>24865328
For a brief overview of textual criticism check out Scribes & Scholars by Reynolds and Wilson. Chapter 6 gives a good summation of what TC involves. If you are interested in the manuscript tradition of the classics the whole book is worth a read, I highly recommend it. Its bibliography has a ton of resources, a few of which I'll post for your convenience
Textual Criticism, Maas
The descent of manuscripts, Clark
Texts and Transmission. A survey of the Latin classics, Reynolds (ed.)
Latin Textual Criticism, Willis

>>24866480
> How actually widely is it used in classical German texts?
In reprints? Non-existent, except maybe as a novelty.
If you're looking for stuff that's so obscure that it didn't see a reprint in the last 100 years, it might come in handy.

>>24865785
this one? https://annas-archive.org/md5/85d127ee50720ce2adf02b64d941328b

>>24866798
thanks, I added it to the FAQ

>>24866883
Nigga your main textbook is in attic. I mean just to read *something* if you aren’t ready for a full native Attic text to cure some boredom so you stick with your textbook.

>reading through Nennius
>There's a footnote by Scaliger
>Some asshole named Manutius tried to introduce grave accents into Latin
>Some people actually accepted them

I'm malding. Hopefully that guy got executed.

>>24867841
I think accent marks of any kind are unacceptable aberrations and any good Englishman ought to abhor them.

>>24866883
>You'd need to rely heavily on ChatGPT though.
Good Lord, pick up a dictionary zoom zoom

how do you build up that vocab

>>24868394
anki reps

>>24868394
Reread stuff, it also helps you build fluency in an easy way. How did you get smooth at reading literary English? That's right, you reread Harry Potter or Percy Jackson 10x in elementary school you fucking nerd.

And yes, anki can help a lot too, but it is 10x as efficient as a reviewing tool than as a tool for acquiring raw information. Even something as small as manually making the flashcards and manually finding sample sentences for the vocab can count as enough "studying" to turn the word into review though and solve this problem.

>>24868394
Anki as a supplement and lots of reading and re-reading
For high frequency words when I'm just beginning a language I like to use sentence cards

To elaborate, I have read 50 pages a day of Latin for the past 4 days, but the first 40 of that is rereading. What that means is when I get to the 10 new pages is that I basically get 40 pages of drilling on grammar and familiar + core vocab, which takes me up to 2 hours of reading, so it really facilitates smooth reading/assimilation of the new material.

What this means is that, in the past for example, by the time I reached LLPSI chapter 15-16, I had hit 6 LLPSI chapters a day if I sat down right in the morning and just grinded it out. So day one of 5 reading sessions would be reading 1 + 10-15, then 2 + 11-16, then 3 + 12-17, then 4 + 13-18, then 5 + 14-19 until comprehension breaks down too much and I spend some time doing close readings of 1-2 chapters a day, then repeat the process again. Sort of like a creeping bombardment where I get to read every chapter 5x and saturate any of the easy/core parts and hit all the parts I didn't get on previous readthroughs.