no other gundam series has a more entertaining interactions between the protag and deuteragonist. that is why it's the most succesful gundam series.

>>23329223 (OP)
Wrong.
SEED would've been better if Athrun died, not Nicol.

>>23329351
HE LOVED TO PLAY THE PIANO

>>23329223 (OP)
Why AI art

>>23329351
Why

>>23329451
Gundam is a story about forging young men into men through the flames of a sci-fi, futuristic war.
A huge part of growing up is giving up aspects of ones childhood - the loss of a lifelong best friend fits that perfectly.
Plus, Athrun is tied with Dearka for least interesting of the 4 Le Creuset pilots and the Blitz's mirage colloid was crucially under-utilized.

>>23329564
>forging young men into men through the flames of a sci-fi, futuristic war.
Are you the clown spammer?

>>23329564
>the Blitz's mirage colloid was crucially under-utilized.
To use a stupid videogame term, invisibility is too "broken". How do you defend against an opponent that can casually teleport behind you? As far as the setting is concerned, nobody has developed a counter against Mirage Colloid in the CE.

>>23329577
Who?
I am as you are, anon. The enemy of Reddit-Spacing-kun.
>>23329638
The Archangel (specifically Natarle, the best CE captain) dealt with the Blitz's invisibility quite handily early on considering it behaves like a Romulan cloak (must deactivate PSA/shields to use - lets forget the Scimitar BS from Nemesis). However, Nicole mostly used this ability on his own and not really in conjunction with his teammates, or even as an allied machine should he defect, so I consider the ability under-utilized.

>>23329638
Blitz can't run PS with colloid up though so all you need to do is see the general direction his beam shots are coming from and spam missiles and other solid weapons in that direction, which is exactly what AA did.

>>23329684
>The enemy of Reddit-Spacing-kun.
I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about?

>>23329723
>dealt with the Blitz's invisibility quite handily
Natarle was able to make an inference on its location from where it's firing, but it was the one and only time this trick was ever used. And despite all the shrapnel barrage and CIWS curtain, they didn't even damage the Blitz.
On the contrary: after the attack, Blitz managed to overload the Archangel's armor and even get close to the ship for a point-blank attack.

>>23329564
The problem is SEED is already established to be a racial war, so the only way to settle it, short of Jesus Yamato style fighting everyone until they settle for peace is to genocide the other. So Kira deciding to kill Athrun and commit whole heartedly to killing anyone he needed to end the war like people say is the "proper" Gundam way to do things would have to end with Kira nuking Plant himself and then commiting suicide to make sure all Coordinators were killed, which is not at all the kind of show they were going for.

I know people say "Just don't write it that way" but it's basically baked into the core story because of the racial divide that starts the whole war.

>>23329451
>Why AI art
SEED is so shit that even AI manages to improve on Hiraiface. Good grief, that shit is so ugly.

>>23329734
Well they did get around it's stealth, it's just that it was able to fly up the AA and attack it anyways because of the superiority of the GAT-X series at the time. And they never use that strategy again because Blitz never uses stealth again. The only two other times it uses it is against a generic EA ship, and to sneak up on Kira only to get killed anyway.

>>23329739
>The only two other times it uses it is against a generic EA ship, and to sneak up on Kira only to get killed anyway.
Which proves my point: it's the kind of gimmick that makes it impossible to write anything interesting with it after a single time.
>oh, sneaking
>oh, a counter for sneaking
>oh, sneaking again on foes that don't know the counter (or is just there for climactic moments, like in Freedom).

>>23329737
what's wrong with it

>>23329564
What you describe is giving up your humanity. Killing your best friend just because he’s the “enemy”. That’s not what Gundam is about at all.

>>23329638
Just spray fire everywhere. Mirage Colloid means it can’t use phase shift.

>>23329750
Lack of creative writing on Fukuda and co's part does not prove your point. Nicol jobbed here (>>23329734) by not slicing up the bridge and instead just shooting at the tower its connected to buy Kira time to intervene.
Here's a simple scenario I made up:
>Send Blitz on a Guul way ahead of Archangel's flight path. Make it sit in the water under invisibility.
>When the Archangel approaches, apply pressure to force it into a sharp bank or barrel roll.
>Blitz fires lancer darts on the exposed bridge while the ship is in a vulnerable position.
>GG
They shoved the Blitz off to the wayside and chose not to do anything interesting with it because they wanted screentime for Yzak to get his ass kicked by Kira and Athrun to be angsty with Kira.

>>23329985
Bitch, go back and watch Zeta gundam and observe how Kamille Biden's mother dies. Innocent civie packed up into a human-sized test-tube, thrown into space, tube cracks she dies in the vacuum.
Childhood friends turned enemy combatants killing one another is tame compared to that.

>>23329993
>dude wouldn't it be creative for the Blitz to just kill everybody LMAO
No.

>>23329999
>in Zeta Gundam, Kamille's mother dies a horrible and senseless death to show how depraved the worst of the Titans are
>ergo, it'd actually be great storytelling if Kira murdered his best friend
You're borderline incoherent and in no position to judge SEED's writing.

>>23330000
Nah, you just make it seem like that's going to happen, cut to commercial or end the episode then open with a last-minute save again.
This time less egregious than >>23329734

>>23330023
Nah, what I'm suggesting is quite tame considering both the EA and ZAFT are heads and shoulders worse than the worst of the EFSF and Zeon. At least prior to Char trying to plunge Earth into a nuclear winter in CCA, that is.

>>23330032
More non-sequitur bullshit.
>there are some bad people in the Earth Alliance and ZAFT, so it would be great storytelling for Kira to just murder Athrun

>>23330033
>Kira to just murder Athrun
Oh, I'd love to see that. But probably would just be killing him in self-defense in combat.
You know, what almost happened but for Nicol's sacrifice?

>>23329999
>>23330032
Why should the villains of the show getting up to evil shit mean that the protagonist needs to too? You seem to think it's an issue of trying to sanitize the show but that doesn't make sense.

>>23330041
>Why should the villains of the show getting up to evil shit mean that the protagonist needs to too?
You're implying that Kira didn't do evil shit, when he already did - by killing a 15 year old who liked the piano.

>>23330066
Killing a random person he didn't know isn't equivalent to killing Athrun.

>>23330066
How is that "evil"? Stop taking Kira's actions out of context and judging them at face value.

>>23330033
>>23330032
>>23329564
>>23329985
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the crux of this whole discussion is what >>23329735 is saying: the Cosmic Era is a grim setting where both factions detest each other to death and have fired superweapons at each other repeatedly. Kira's spiel about "a world worthy to protect" collapses against the facts on the ground. The only thing he can do is just scream at people to stop fighting and do his Full-Burst disabling gimmick, but that doesn't change people's hearts.

>>23330161
That's bullshit. The majority of CE's people are good at heart, and it's explicitly the actions of very few people that drive it into insane violence.

>>23330104
Its about as "evil" as killing his childhood best friend - turned enemy combatant in the heat of battle.
>>23330171
Yet the PLANTs elected Patrick Zala and the EA nations elected Blue Cosmos puppets.

>>23330192
>and the EA nations elected Blue Cosmos puppets.
Logos had full control of the Earth Alliance. There was nothing the putative leaders could've said to placate Djibril.

>>23329351
SEED would have been better if Kira died and Athrun became the protagonist on the Archangel after killing him

>>23330198
If the people didn't agree with the genocidal intent of Blue Cosmos, they would've rioted against its publicly known leaders and politicians who advance its agenda, as they did in Destiny.
Fukuda, unwittingly or not has made it abundantly clear that the common people of the EA can make those in charge fear for their lives yet they chose not to exercise that power until Durandal exposed Logos. Therefore, its easy to infer that they were complacent with Blue Cosmos genocidal actions in the first war.

>>23330203
Lol fuck no.

>>23330171
>The majority of CE's people are good at heart
The show has proven over and over that to not be the case. Unlike in any other show that I can remember, average soldiers in both factions are constantly portrayed as ruthless bigots, with no mercy whatsoever.

The "good people" are an exception in this world (and usually on the side of our protagonists), not the rule. The average civilian or soldier isn't afforded decency, just submission (eg. people on PLANT placating their bloodthirst after "Lacus" appears on TV) or astonishment. The far and few occasions where we see them doing something good (again, this means joining our protagonist faction) is when they run out of any other alternatives.

>>23330192
Patrick Zala doesn't go genocidal until nukes start hitting the PLANTs again.
Azrael wasn't elected, and the president of the AF in Destiny is not with Blue Cosmos or Logos.

>>23330244
Not this shit again.
There's a lot of justified enmity on both sides. Naturals and Coordinators have friction even in Orb. Yet we see Alliance personnel pushing back against the nuclear strike and ZAFT personnel pushing back against firing GENESIS at Earth.

Rau talks big about how people are only born to kill one another, that it's what they desire, etc., but he literally causes all of it that we see at the end of SEED.

>>23330244
Outside of Orb, we have the dude that shot Patrick, Natarle stopping Azrael, and the grunts Athrun ran into on the way to stop GENESIS. And nearly every single one of these scenes you listed had the aggressors get screwed over in some way beforehand.
>>23330032
How the fuck is ZAFT anywhere near as bad as the worst Zeon had to offer?

>>23330244
>retaliation after being hit with a war crime
>retaliation after being hit with a war crime
>retaliation after being hit with a war crime
>anger from a civilian after being horribly fucked over
>anger from a civilian after being horribly fucked over
>war crime committed by a civilian who was horribly fucked over
Uhh.... got any better examples?

>>23330272
ZAFT pulled out superweapons capable of irradiating 99% of life on earth to death with a single attack.. twice, they were just too stupid and incompetent to get a single shot lined up on the earth

colony drops are awful and all, but it'd still take a few hundred or thousand across the world to achieve the same devastation to all plant and animal life

>>23330420
Minor thing, but I don't think Neo-GENESIS was that strong.

>>23330422
okay, looked it up and you're right, it's smaller and it also has a lower power mode where it fires at 50%, for some reason my mind thought they said it was just as effective as the original despite the size difference due to advances but that is not the case

>>23330272
>Natarle stopping Azrael
Again, part of the main cast. And even she tried to rationalize Azrael's orders. Natarle only pointed out to Azrael the tactical irresponsibility of nuking the habitats first instead of Genesis.
We don't see, at any point, anyone from the Earth Alliance actively opposing the operation, or even pointing out the sheer barbarity of nuking the PLANTs; Fllay and Natarle seem to act for personal reasons out of their connection to the Archangel, rather than realizing they're accomplices to a genocide.

>>23330264
>but he literally causes all of it that we see at the end of SEED
Rau was a catalyst for things to turn from bad to worse, but the sentiment of hatred is still present among the populace and leadership besides his actions.

>>23330273
All evidence on-screen points out to a shared hatred that runs very deep. The onus is on you to provide evidence of that "the majority of CE's people are good at heart", because I don't see it. Quite the contrary, making Kira look like a naïve moron fighting for a pointless cause (or, as Freedom points out, doing it solely to make Lacus happy)

>>23329223 (OP)
No other Gundam manages to have such a shitty artstyle.
>>23329737
This. Hiraiface is everything wrong with anime

>>23330460
I'm not all of these anons but I have some things to say anyways.
>We don't see, at any point, anyone from the Earth Alliance actively opposing the operation
Yes we do, we see all the bigwigs telling Azrael that they'd rather use the NJC to solve the energy crisis instead.

>Rau was a catalyst for things to turn from bad to worse
More like "from okay to bad to worse". The war would have just been over at JOSH-A if he hadn't leaked Operation Spitbreak. Patrick Zala wouldn't have started cracking down on moderates in the PLANTs in outrage at the operation being leaked. So on, so forth. The idea that the war was always going to end in a genocidal bloodbath isn't substantiated whatsoever.

>The onus is on you to provide evidence of that "the majority of CE's people are good at heart"
The years of peace between CE 71 and 73, with it requiring a global disaster and information manipulation by Djibril to get Earth willing to fight again - whereas the powers of Earth were perfectly okay with letting ZAFT off the hook for Break the World. Later in the war, where the Alliance straight up starts working with ZAFT to depose Logos. The culmination of that war, where a fleet made up of Orb, Alliance, and ZAFT ships opposes Durandal. The existence of COMPASS in Freedom at all.
These are all big things that go well beyond individual actors. Again, there is friction, but CE is a less genocidal setting than UC at least.

>>23330420
Pushing aside what the other guy said, that weapon was brought out as a weapon of last resort against the EA literally trying to nuke them off the map. Even then, both superweapons were controversial enough to either get people on ZAFT to defect (Destiny) or encourage individuals to push back against their leadership like what you have in SEED. A bit better than Zeon gassing colonies and dropping them on the Earth to the tune of zero pushback (CCA being the one supernatural exception). Also, wasn't operation stardust literally supposed to starve out the Earth?
>>23330460
Flay's whole breakdown scene with Natarle doesn't really make much sense without her giving a shit about how the side she's helping is now attempting genocide. And Natarle might be part of the main cast, but she never actually returns to the Archangel.
>She tries rationalizing Azrael's orders
Before giving up and calling a spade a spade. In her slight defense, it's hard to think clearly with a gun to your head (metaphorically; I'm talking about Genesis).
>Natarle only pointed out to Azrael the tactical irresponsibility of nuking the habitats first instead of Genesis
When you're facing a man like Azrael, do you honestly expect a moral argument to work? Natarle was trying to steer him from the obviously immoral act by appealing to reason.

Also, nta, but no one was arguing against the notion of naturals and coordinators struggling to get along. What's being argued is the notion that these reactions (all born as a reaction to getting fucked over) are enough to write the people of CE off.

>>23330511
>The war would have just been over at JOSH-A if he hadn't leaked Operation Spitbreak.
The idea of "taking over your enemy's HQ means you win" makes sense on videogames, but not on real life. Not only Earth had many more resources than ZAFT to prosecute the war, they weren't politically exhausted either.
Also, the Earth Alliance lost JOSH-A and Panama and still were able to mount an offensive, so your argument has no merit.

>whereas the powers of Earth were perfectly okay with letting ZAFT off the hook for Break the World
What? This is blatantly false. We see the Atlantic Federation's president giving an unacceptable ultimatum to the Supreme Council before responding with force (ie. FIRING NUKES TO KILL EVERYONE ON PLANT).

>Later in the war, where the Alliance straight up starts working with ZAFT to depose Logos.
>The culmination of that war, where a fleet made up of Orb, Alliance, and ZAFT ships opposes Durandal
As I pointed out before, this is a "we don't have any other alternative but to cooperate". It's a similar scenario than the one Italy faced during WWII, when a bunch of its forces decided to join the Allied effort after the invasion (Italian Co-belligerent Army).

>The existence of COMPASS in Freedom at all.
Nothing special about a Lacus-faction PLANT cooperating with an Attha-faction Orb to act as the world's policeman. The Atlantic Federation is a member only nominally (they don't have any forces attached to Compass) and Eurasia is opposed to them.

>>23330524
>Flay's whole breakdown scene with Natarle doesn't really make much sense without her giving a shit about how the side she's helping is now attempting genocide.
Natarle's words to Fllay are, verbatim, "[this war] will end. Once every last enemy is destroyed". Maybe she's only considering destroying the enemy's armed forces, but I'd be hard pressed to think of any war that has ended under such a scenario, outside of barbaric campaigns in antiquity. Not even the Crusades were that brutal.

>In her slight defense, it's hard to think clearly with a gun to your head
Except Natarle was thinking clearly as to what was the imminent threat to Earth, Genesis. Azrael forced her to go with his orders at gunpoint, only to rationalize his logic afterwards.

>but she never actually returns to the Archangel.
Not physically, but morally she was on their side at the end.

>What's being argued is the notion that these reactions are enough to write the people of CE off.
I think they all contribute to an overall feeling of deep cynicism and little to no chance of reconciliation. We see nameless military forces moving to one "good" faction (only to serve as visible cannon fodder for explosions), but actual mutual understanding seems unreachable.

I'd bet that, even if PLANT was under a new administration, many on Earth would feel wary about Coordinators as a whole after Durandal attempted to impose the Destiny Plan on them. Even more so after the Foundation pukes appeared with even worse terms.
And ESPECIALLY after people on Earth managed to move from their discomfort and warmed over to Coordinators during the Minerva's tour. I imagine many would feel betrayed and cheated after realizing that it was all a trick to manipulate the populace into accepting the Destiny Plan. A Logos once over.

>>23330529
>The idea of "taking over your enemy's HQ means you win"
Is a recurring idea in Gundam, and would be true if the Alliance was caught unprepared and their biggest member lost a lot of military power and many officers in a surprise attack.

>What? This is blatantly false.
It's blatantly true. In the wake of Break the World, anti-ZAFT sentiment stirred, but was tempered by Durandal helping with disaster relief. It wasn't until Djibril spread photo evidence of (what he claims to be) ZAFT deliberately causing Break the World that people started calling for retribution. We see that the Alliance had been willing to accept that the terrorists were all dead, but then suddenly turns around and asks for the terrorists to be handed over.

>As I pointed out before, this is a "we don't have any other alternative but to cooperate".
If everybody in the EA wanted the PLANTs dead, why wouldn't they just keep at what they were doing until Requiem is active and annihilates the PLANTs?

>Lacus-faction PLANT
You mean anti-war PLANT. Anybody who is anti-war is naturally going to be a part of the anti-war faction. That's like complaining that all the people against the war in SEED or SEED Destiny join the anti-war faction there too.
>The Atlantic Federation is a member only nominally (they don't have any forces attached to Compass)
They take part in the battle against Foundation in the end.

>>23330436
>>23330422

Well he didn't need Neo Genesis to be Earth targeting, he had Requiem for that.

>>23331322
>and would be true if the Alliance was caught unprepared and their biggest member lost a lot of military power and many officers in a surprise attack.
But this did happen when ZAFT attacked Panama. And then again when Ptolemaus base was blasted by Genesis.

>In the wake of Break the World, anti-ZAFT sentiment stirred, but was tempered by Durandal helping with disaster relief.
>It wasn't until Djibril spread photo evidence of (what he claims to be) ZAFT deliberately causing Break the World that people started calling for retribution.
That's not how the events are portrayed on screen. We see ZAFT forces providing aid while Logos seethes about it; we don't know how the people on Earth were feeling about Coordinators and PLANT before the manipulated imagery was made public (we do hear, however, positive opinions from Earth's people when the Minerva disembarks on Diocuia). And aid operations do make for strange circumstances. The priority is helping people.
My opinion is that, just like Rau's schemes, Logos only amplifies an already existing sentiment.

>We see that the Alliance had been willing to accept that the terrorists were all dead, but then suddenly turns around and asks for the terrorists to be handed over.
No, we do not. At any point did the Earth Alliance ever accept PLANT's assessment that the terrorists were all dead. Junius Seven drops on Earth on episode 7, and episode 8 closes with the Seirans informing Cagalli of the EA's ultimatum.

>You mean anti-war PLANT. Anybody who is anti-war is naturally going to be a part of the anti-war faction.
No, I mean the literal Clyne Faction (クライン派), which is an actual named thing.

>They take part in the battle against Foundation in the end.
That proves very little: are those ships affiliated with COMPASS or the Earth Alliance?
Also, if the Atlantic Federation was an active member of COMPASS, why didn't they provide pilots, MS or technology during the first battles, rather than just be a ZAFT/Orb joint army?

>>23331322
>>23332324
>Reddit-Spacing-kun bumping this thread by arguing with himself.
>Reddit-Spacing-kun debating whether the common everyman Kira Yamato hypocritically declares himself to be is actually a frothing at the mouth racist who endorses genocide with their vote.
All stemming from my awesome idea that SEED would be better if Athrun died.
Stay classy, Gunda/m/ Seed General

>>23330553
Flay's reaction was the thing I was focusing on in that part.
>Natarle's words
Natarle also called Azrael a monster that deserved to die with her at the end (not only a moral repudiation of him but herself for even indulging him this far, power structure be damned). The Archangel was an obvious influence in her decision to finally bite the bullet, but just as obvious were the moral misgivings she'd had with Azrael leading up to this point.
>Morally she was at their side in the end
She didn't condemn for being the only decent side by the end of the war, but I think there's something to her final words to Azrael and her words to Flat that imply an unwillingness to properly return to them. She likely would have stayed within the Federation to take responsibility and make change as a reformist had she somehow survived.
>Mutual understanding seems unreachable
I mean, isn't that Gundam in general?
>Many on Earth would feel wary about Coordinators as a whole
In the immediate aftermath, sure. But CE kinda has the benefit of time rn. The Federation doesn't quite have the power to monopolize space. Patrick might have his followers beyond the grave, but ZAFT itself is not entrenched in his or Durandal's ideology. Every bad actor's been axed. All that's left is Blue Cosmos, which just lost its new leader. Race relations are a complicated issue in the cosmic era with no obvious immediate answer, but the issue isn't so deeply entrenched within the status quo of either faction that reform is impossible.
If the Minerva could gather goodwill from its escapades immediately following BtW, I don't see why the same wouldn't hold true for Compass after they land a critical blow to Blue Cosmos, wipe those Foundation twits off the map and destroy Requiem while they're at it. ZAFT members moving to take out their own extremists without someone around to poison the well right after also helps.

Between Drool, Zetarager and Bikininigger, we have enough schizos on /m/ already. Fuck off.

>whether the common everyman Kira Yamato hypocritically declares himself to be is actually a frothing at the mouth racist who endorses genocide with their vote.
What are you even talking about?

>>23332396
Anon, what the fuck are you talking about?

>>23332324
>My opinion is that, just like Rau's schemes, Logos only amplifies an already existing sentiment.
I agree.

>That proves very little: are those ships affiliated with COMPASS or the Earth Alliance?
I feel that’s a bit of a distinction without difference, though I do get your point.

>>23332396
Lol

>>23332406
>>23332410
Pay attention to Kira's conversation during his confrontations with Rau and later Durandal.
>Rau/Durandal: You are special, as the Ultimate Coordinator, Kira
>Kira: Nuh uh. I'm just a human being no different from anyone else.
The irony being that these conversations only ended up happening thanks to the normies who Kira identifies with endorsing and fanning the flames of war even though he starkly disagrees with their beliefs.
Additionally, following the Archangel's descent to Earth in SEED, he needs to rest and has a bad fever due to how he handled atmospheric re-entry. His Heliopolis friends all gathered around him, worried, while the Archangel's doctor explained that he was only ALIVE because he's a COORDINATOR, in complete contradiction to his own beliefs.

>>23332423
Why should we care about what an obsessed schizo like yourself thinks?

>>23332324
>That proves very little: are those ships affiliated with COMPASS or the Earth Alliance?

They're the Remnants of the fleet that attempted to attack Foundation earlier and got Requiemed according to the dialogue. Some of them managed to avoid it and backed off until they noticed Compass attacking I guess.

>>23332423
That's not even what Kira said, dipshit.

>>23332428
>obsessed schizo
Who? That's not me. Reddit-Spacing-kun is the obsessed schizo just look at her mind-numbing posts:
>>23329734
>>23330511
>>23332324
>>23332419

>>23332443
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paraphrase

>>23332444
If you want people to take your arguments even a bit seriously, knock it off with the imaginary "Reddit-Spacing-kun" horseshit.

>>23329985
It could still theoretically work if Kira is still so horrified afterwards that he decides to go Jesus mode anyway, just because he actually killed Athrun as opposed to tried to kill him. As it was he sided with Lacus while still expecting Athrun to be his enemy later on. Athrun decided to defect also took him completely by surprise, in fact Kira is notably not very happy to see Athrun again when he pops up in Orb until he announces his intention to cooperate with him.

However that just means Athrun's entire character would have existed just to die to develop Kira and I think there's already enough characters in this universe that suffer from that.

>>23332403
>but just as obvious were the moral misgivings she'd had with Azrael leading up to this point.
Which moral misgivings? We don't see any from her until she calls Azrael a monster. In fact, Natarle was explicit about the war ending after the enemy was fully obliterated. That wasn't put in Natarle's head by Azrael.

>I mean, isn't that Gundam in general?
Not really. We have various examples of the opposite: the "light of the human spirit" in CCA's finale, X making real inroads towards peace, Turn A swiftly defusing the conflict between Ameria and the Moonrace, 00 with humankind united against the aliens (and then allied with said aliens). The Cosmic Era, on the other hand, is a never-ending cycle of war. Kira and his group can only stem the bloodshed, not solve it.

>All that's left is Blue Cosmos, which just lost its new leader.
Ideology transcends individual leaders. From what we can tell, Blue Cosmos has a significant constituency before and after the wars. And you think that the appearance of a bunch of Super Coordinators ordering Naturals to be their slaves wouldn't cause a backlash?

>If the Minerva could gather goodwill from its escapades immediately following BtW,
Because the tour did a bunch of things: PR for ZAFT, aid delivery and kicking out the EA forces from the areas. COMPASS is far more limited: act where they're needed and blast anyone being hostile, help the injured, leave.

>but the issue isn't so deeply entrenched within the status quo
>wipe those Foundation twits off the map and destroy Requiem while they're at it
In the eyes of the average citizen of Earth, this would only prove that Coordinators are superior to Naturals. "Doing a good thing" is very different from "earning trust". While leaders across the planet might be drawn to COMPASS, the potential for popular resentment is higher than ever, especially after Foundation blasted a city with an allegedly decommissioned weapon.

>>23332453
>in fact Kira is notably not very happy to see Athrun again when he pops up in Orb until he announces his intention to cooperate with him.
>However that just means Athrun's entire character would have existed just to die to develop Kira and I think there's already enough characters in this universe that suffer from that.
No. Instead, we have a running theme that's even worse: characters falling in line with Kira and his beliefs. There's Murrue and the Archangel people, Athrun after defecting, Shinn and Lunamaria.
There's no main character that's truly independent, nobody going through their own path across the world. The closest we ever got to this was Athrun going to Durandal's side in Destiny, and that logic is even more stupid.

>>23332423
Being the ultimate coordinator on its own is inherently meaningless. Bro was born with max IVs, that’s all. It’s still his experiences that made him who he is, not his genes. That’s just the rhetoric Rau and Durandal prefer.

>>23332453
I don’t think it sounds preferable, as you say it’s just killing Athrun off for drama and unnecessary, but I see your point.

>>23332463
People who are anti-war join the anti-war faction. Surprising.

>>23332449
Anon, what I'm trying to say here is that you couldn't even get the point Kira was making right.

>>23332454
Ehh I think the fallout wouldn’t be directed at Coordinators, but Accords. The Accords nuked their own people for fun, and pretty much their whole fleet was automated iirc.

>>23332491
>I think the fallout wouldn’t be directed at Coordinators, but Accords.
Would people make a distinction? There's the "monsters from space" and the "other monsters from space"? Aura's crowd does the bidding of people like Djibril, plus the psychological sentiment of insecurity that groups like COMPASS simply cannot fill. That's a job for the ideologues, and while the Lacus gang outright refuses to take sides (Orb is neutral and so is COMPASS), people will be drawn to Blue Cosmos on Earth and the Orphee's supremacist ideas on PLANT.

>and pretty much their whole fleet was automated
Only some of the old GINNs were drones. As far as we know, their fleet was manned.

>>23332506
I believe Fukuda has said the only fallout might be if Lacus being an Accord became public info.

>>23332463
Didn't Fukuda once say he didn't originally plan for Shinn to join Kira's side at the end of Destiny or was that bullshit?

>>23332515
Hell, doesn't Agnes get pardoned and rejoin COMPASS? Though, IIRC she does come from a wealthy family.

>>23332561
No he said he didn't intend for Shinn to join Kira's side before the end of Destiny ie, turn on Durandal. He always intended for him to fight for Duranadal till the end

>>23332515
Which it should be because Orphee outed her in his speech, but on the other hand the epilogue scenes from the rerelease have Lacus and Kira speak about keeping her being an Accord a secret, so I don't know how that worked.

>>23332515
>>23332579
>but on the other hand the epilogue scenes from the rerelease have Lacus and Kira speak about keeping her being an Accord a secret, so I don't know how that worked.
Yet again, Fukuda wants to have his cake and eat it too.

>>23332561
Nah, he and Morosawa agreed essentially that Shinn couldn’t carry the show to the end

>>23332619
I'm almost surprised they didn't kill him off in the final battle.

>>23332596
Maybe that's why she and Kira decided to fuck off at the end of the movie, but if a SEED project happens in the future, they'll be back.

>>23332561
>>23332624
>According to an interview with the director after the release of the series, "To be honest, at the very beginning of DESTINY, I thought it would be difficult to carry the story through to the end with Shinn as the main character. So Morosawa quickly switched the story's focus to Athrun, and I also switched the focus to Kira."
>This is probably why Athrun was prominent in the story of SEED DESTINY, while Kira was portrayed as the heroic protagonist. Unfortunately, Shinn was demoted from the main character role very early on. In that sense, it can be said that Shinn was never the main character.

>>23332676
Fukuda speaks as if he and Morosawa didn't write or design Shinn.

>>23332676
To be fair, doesn't the switch happen after Athrun switches sides? I think the recap movies and The Edge manga also treat him as the main character. Funny thing is I think in that manga Shinn puts up a better fight and actually damages the Infinite Justice unlike the show where Athrun destroys him in just a couple seconds.

>>23332687
He does that shit all the time on interviews.

The thing with Fllay delivering the NJC plans to Azrael (instead of being rescued by Kira) was, in Fukuda's words, "left to chance".
Likewise his dislike of the Destroy, as they became cannon fodder and too easy to defeat.

>>23332687
Did he want to only focus on Kira and the old cast but forced to create new characters because higher ups wanted the show to be CE Zeta? Hence, why I sometimes hear that Kira was always meant to take back the spotlight. Pretty sure fans were the same way. They only watched to see what Kira and co. were up to and didn't give a shit about these new guys. Shinn shitting on the old cast, especially Cagalli, Athrun, and Kira, definitely didn't help.

>>23332652
Yeah, the novel suggests they go into hiding for good, but the post-movie postcard just suggests they're taking a break.

>>23332579
It doesn't need to work, Lacus and Kira can bend reality.

>>23332740
>These aren't the Accords you're looking for.

>>23332579
The speech comes off vague. To summarize:
>To Coordinators in the PLANTs, we are your brothers.
>We were also created from genetic engineering, the ultimate Coordinators - Accords!
>Lacus Clyne is one of our siblings, and she is here with us. Her will and our will are one!

>>23332709
Generally speaking, Japan is far more friendly to Kira and Cagalli and basically think they did little wrong in Destiny. They find Shinn's behavior toward them to be completely ridiculous. I.e., he goes on a tirade against Cagalli when she wasn't even in office when Orb got invaded, he blames Freedom for Stella when he's the one who brought her back to Neo.

>>23332761
>he goes on a tirade against Cagalli when she wasn't even in office when Orb got invaded
But isn't she effectively a continuation of her (adoptive) father as a leader, the same father that was in charge when Orb got invaded?

>>23332737
The novel's wrong on that account. Fukuda said in interviews they'd keep up the good fight and the special edition epilogue has them already making plans to move back to Orb into the beach house with the underground dock in case Murrue and Mu need Kira to help them out, so while they're stepping back from being the poster people of Compass they aren't going anywhere as far as missions go. They were never just gonna hide on a deserted island for the rest of their lives.

>>23332454
>We don't see any
She's clearly uncomfortable with the concept of the Bio CPUs to start, flinches upon witnessing Boaz getting nuked, and balks at the concept of Azrael not even feeling remorse for the act, enemy or not. We don't get to see her reaction to the concept of the PLANTs getting nuked the first time Azrael mentions it, but the next scene with her has her thinking back to Murrue's words about the crummy nature of the Earth Forces. It's followed up by Azrael throwing his weight around and effectively telling her that he's the one calling the shots around here.
Her rationalizations are coming from a place of desperation. They can't go back after sending out the nukes and now she has to commit to this or else everything's kaput. She doesn't feel right doing this and clearly is upset with the notion of the war getting worse following the nuking, but feels powerless to stop it.
>Not really
The light of the human spirit not only failed to bring about meaningful change in the Universal century, but also does nothing to change the nonsensical series of events that led us to this point. Neither Bright nor Amuro manage to actually reform the Federation. The pretty lights aren't going to help the folks at Sweetwater or Shangri-la. Even then, Amuro and Char both fail to understand each other at the end. Then there's Zeta/ZZ, wherein the Federation got worse and the AEUG wound up getting absorbed back into the Federation (that literally sold out Dublin to Haman).
Decades after CCA, Newtypes are practically a myth and the Federation's still shit, which leads to another faction coming in to radicalize the disenfranchised Spacenoids.
G Gundam doesn't make a big deal of understanding, but the environmental concerns Master Asia brought up seem doomed to continue as Gundam fights continue long after the end credits. The entries where things actually get better are the outlier.

>>23332676
>>23332702
One interview that gets me in particular was the part where "Cagalli is the main protagonist of Destiny"

>>23332694
The "Switch" as far the show portraying Kira as the hero and Shinn as a villain starts in Berlin which a few episodes before Athrun officially switches although he's already pretty much supporting Kira's actions by then.

>>23332776
Plus, they already tried retiring in Destiny and we all know how that turned out.

>>23332766
They don't buy that Uzumi was at fault either. To quote them:
>Given the world situation at the time, if Orb had accepted the Earth Alliance's demands, they would have undoubtedly been attacked by ZAFT, who were aiming to complete Operation Ouroboros, which was aimed at taking control of the Alliance's mass driver spaceports, and it was already nearly impossible to avoid war. It could not be denied that the Alliance might demand the surrender of the Coordinators in Orb, including Shinn, so there was no option left for him to continue his daily life.
>Also, if one were to take a more blatant interpretation, one could say that he (indirectly) should have prioritized the people and accepted the Earth Alliance's demands, but since the Alliance was under the control of Blue Cosmos at the time, it could also be interpreted as "the Orb government should have knelt down to Blue Cosmos for the sake of the people, and cooperated to eradicate the Coordinators." Uzumi also sensed the presence of Muruta Azrael behind the Alliance, and even though it's not analogous, ZAFT was under the control of Patrick Zala , so essentially it was the same, and he had no choice but to make the decision made. Either way, Shinn's statement was made by someone who is not involved in politics and does not know the situation, so it was off the mark.

>>23332780
It's rather bleak that the most hopeful the Universal Century's situation ever seems to get is around the time of G-Saviour.

>>23332579
>>23332596
After Orphee got caught with his pants down in the worst way possible and denounced by Lacus/co, I wouldn't be surprised if people just didn't take his word for anything.

>>23332782
I could see the argument made. She's set up as a foil to Durandal and really has a lot of plot importance from start to end.

>>23332780
(Cont.)
>From what we can tell
They can't even get the funding for fully operational Destroy Gundams anymore. They are absolutely on their back leg by Freedom. Ideology might transcend leadership, but militaries certainly don't. Are you implying that people would see the super coordinators holding them at gunpoint and switch over to supporting...the terrorists trying to hold them at gunpoint? The same terrorists that were jobbing to a battery powered Freedom and Justice, no less? It's a stupid move no matter how you look at it. Of course Naturals are going to be wary of Coordinators following Freedom, but picking Blue Cosmos as the people's champion is just not in the cards after the movies's opening, let alone the events of Berlin. In the first place, the last thing anyone wants at this point regardless is more conflict. It's more likely at this point that a new group starts to form seeking a way to equalize the playing field.
>Compass is far more limited
Compass is also loaded with multiple war heroes AND has Lacus behind the helm, who's been using media to her advantage since she was 16.

>>23332709
>Shinn shitting on the old cast, especially Cagalli, Athrun, and Kira, definitely didn't help.
Felt like the other way around with Athrun shitting on Shinn.

>>23332801
NTA but they don't think Athrun was in the right there either, mostly because he keeps using vague phrases instead of getting to the point.
>"War isn't about playing the hero!" instead of "It's good that you saved people, but you also killed people who were no threat anymore!"
>"What the Chairman and Rey say might sound correct and agreeable, but their words will kill the whole world!" vs "The Lacus with ZAFT is a fake, that's why Kira wouldn't side with us, Durandal is lying to everybody!"

>>23332780
>>23332800
>Ideology might transcend leadership, but militaries certainly don't
You don't understand how fanatic terrorists work, do you?

>Are you implying that people would see the super coordinators holding them at gunpoint and switch over to supporting...the terrorists trying to hold them at gunpoint?
By that same logic, you can make the argument that the Foundation crisis served to increase Blue Cosmos's ranks both as a movement and in military power. People on Earth would seek strength in any sort of movement that opposes Coordinators and goes out of its way to kill them like in the movie's starting scene. They would see them as "the ones that actually fight", compared to the useless regular forces, and give them the benefit of the doubt that their brutality will be directed at the enemy.

>Of course Naturals are going to be wary of Coordinators following Freedom, but picking Blue Cosmos as the people's champion is just not in the cards after the movies's opening, let alone the events of Berlin. In the first place, the last thing anyone wants at this point regardless is more conflict.
Novel argues otherwise.

>Compass is also loaded with multiple war heroes
"Oh, look! It's that guy doing cool poses! Can I get some food, please?" Kira and his stable cannot create anything resembling an enduring peace, just put out fires when they flare up. That's the whole point of COMPASS.

>let alone the events of Berlin
Non-diegetic answer: the writing likes to sweep things under the rug. Break The World was a thing for a bunch of episodes, but there weren't many long-term repercussions. Or, as we've been arguing, nobody seems to mind that a nuclear holocaust that would've killed tens of millions has been attempted TWICE.

>>23332829
>the writing likes to sweep things under the rug.
Neo Roanoke, anyone? But I guess brainwashing and helping save the world from Durandal was enough to get him pardoned. And it's not like anyone outside of COMPASS knows that Neo and Mu are the same person.

>>23332790
I mean he said they were a new race superior to even Coordinators and they were promptly all wiped out with relative ease, so yeah it's possible everyone thought he just made that up to sound tough.

>>23332792
She's not even in the final arc other than silent cameos.

>>23332788
>To quote them:
Who's "them"? That stupid Pixiv wiki? I'd rather hear from the koreans at Namu, thank you very much.

And no, that whole argument is bullshit. "Cosmic Era Mechanics & World", an official databook, throws cold water at that notion:
>そういった意味では中立を守るというオーブの決断は国民に犠牲を強いたという意見は、しごく真っ当なものと言える。
"It is quite legitimate to argue that Orb's decision to remain neutral came at the expense of its people".

>It could not be denied that the Alliance might demand the surrender of the Coordinators in Orb, including Shinn
That's why they were being evacuated. If you want a good historical parallel, look at the 1943 rescue of the Jews in Denmark: 99% of them survived.

>the Orb government should have knelt down to Blue Cosmos for the sake of the people
They were still defeated in the war, so the outcome is the same.

>Either way, Shinn's statement was made by someone who is not involved in politics and does not know the situation, so it was off the mark.
The Japanese can't help themselves being pathetic, can they?

>>23332829
NTA but the novel does not necessarily reflect the setting proper. Blue Cosmos is weaker than ever. They have no institutional power in the Atlantic Federation anymore. Their leader isn't some shadowy executive with a shitload of capital, it's just some old soldier guy who the Alliance themselves put an arrest warrant out for. Who gets nuked.

>>23332843
It's no excuse, but it's presented as him not even wanting to use the Destroy, but being forced to under duress from Djibril. Between that and his memories being tampered with, yeah, I could see cause for leniency.

>>23332862
Actually, the Pixiv wiki backs your point up, if anything, claiming that ZAFT's ground forces were exhausted and likely couldn't have invaded Orb.

>>23332865
I think it also doesn't help that there's never a point where he's shown feeling guilty about anything he did, is there? Even with the brainwashing used as an excuse.

>>23332865
>but the novel does not necessarily reflect the setting proper.
No, that's you disregarding the events of the movie.

>Blue Cosmos is weaker than ever. They have no institutional power in the Atlantic Federation anymore. Their leader isn't some shadowy executive with a shitload of capital, it's just some old soldier guy who the Alliance themselves put an arrest warrant out for. Who gets nuked.
That was the state of play before Foundation showed up. Remember that Blue Cosmos was supposedly purged for good alongside Logos, yet the movement still has some military force around a year later.

Going back to the "nothing seems to stick in this fucking writing" point, it makes no sense that Eurasia would be the ones supporting Blue Cosmos after the Destroy's rampage. And yet...
There's the excuse that PLANT had been supporting the secessionist movements, but Djibril and his ideology killed thousands more.


>It's no excuse, but it's presented as him not even wanting to use the Destroy, but being forced to under duress from Djibril. Between that and his memories being tampered with, yeah, I could see cause for leniency.
At least have Mwu showing some contrition for his actions. It's not like he lost all of his memories as Neo.

>>23332881
Is there evidence in the movie that Eurasia is tacitly working with Blue Cosmos?

>>23332888
Like Durandal and the first hit on Lacus, no. There isn't any "smoking gun". There's a bunch of circumstantial evidence, though:
>Polkovnik Michael wears an Eurasian uniform
>"Blue Cosmos" mobile suits have EA insignia
>their stronghold is in a buffer zone next to Eurasia

>>23332880
The show gives him a shower scene set to sad music while the orders from Djibril are read out, then he later says "Stella..." when seeing the Destroy being destroyed on TV. That's about it.

I can't verify it because I don't have the novel yet, but secondhand sources say it shows he feels a lot of conflict over it. He's in a position where there's really nothing he can do. Refuse to follow the order? Djibril will find somebody who will. Run away with Stella? She'll just die.

>>23332881
The novel straight up has a different ending than the movie: it is not applicable.
Novels are good for looking into character motivations or inner thoughts, but when they differ in major ways, I wouldn’t defer to them.

>>23332899
I think Super Robot Wars Z also had him showing remorse even offering to let Shinn punch him for Stella when the Archangel permantely joins ZEUTH.

>>23332905
And isn't Agnes an even worse person than in the movie?

>>23332899
>>23332906
I don't give a rat's ass about Neo bawwwing about fucking Stella. She can rot in the bottom of that lake for all Icare.
My point is that, after becoming Mwu again, he never feels a shred of concern about the hundreds of thousands that got killed in Eurasia because of his orders.

>>23332912
She’s more of a hoe iirc

>>23332829
Anon, what are you proposing Blue Cosmos fight with when their mobile suits (which they evidently can't afford to even repair) are torn to shreds and their leadership is a mess? I'm saying they're well on their way to becoming a non-threats incapable of doing more than shooting themselves in the foot. A far cry from the faction that literally would have always stood in the way of pace between Coordinators and Naturals.
>By that same logic
How does my logic get you anywhere close to that conclusion? My point is that Civilians (Natural and Coordinator alike) have historically gotten fucked over by Blue Cosmos in every iteration. They have literally killed thousands of naturals just to catch maybe a hundred coordinators in the crossfire. They've never done or accomplished any good for the world, so there's even less reason to trust them than ZAFT/Compass/Orb. They're also constantly losing. It'd be like choosing to support the Titans late into the Gryps conflict. Was the logic of people being tired of constant threat under WMDs (either by BC or the likes of Foundation) somehow leading to people valuing "strength?"
>Kira and his stables cannot create anything resembling an enduring peace
Ignoring the fact that you've made no case for why that's somehow an immutable fact, I think you've lost the plot a bit here. You were arguing that Compass couldn't earn goodwill the way the Minerva did, I pointed out the Goodwill they already had going for them as the people that stopped the world from ending alongside the current events from the movie. Also, you realize making this argument comes off just a tad goofy after upholding CCA as an example of a Gundam entry doing the opposite of what you just described, right?
>Non-diegetic answer
By that logic, what's the point of this discussion? I could just as well say the Accords will be swept under the rug as a freaky in that Compass took care of and call it a day.

>>23332914
Everybody still with ZAFT by the end of Destiny was complicit in worse but they get a pass? Durandal was about to straight up annihilate all of Orb.

>>23332914
The show basically acts like him rejoining Archangel instantly makes him a good guy again. Aside from Berlin I don't think Team Kira ever treat LOGOS as a huge threat, at least compared to Durandal. Even when Djibril destroys up some colonies.

>>23332931
Logos is almost entirely dealt with by the time they recover from Angel Down to be fair.

>>23332905
I thought Fukuda said things were only considered legit if they made it into animation anyway.

>>23332931
They are horrified when it happens, but they don't blame themselves, and are still more focused on Durandal. On the other hand they're not really in shape to go after Logos at that point anyway, AA still was only jury rig repaired and Athrun was still too injured to pilot without ripping himself open again.

>>23332924
At this stage, "Blue Cosmos" isn't an organization proper anymore. It's an idea. An umbrella designation for any anti-Coordinator armed extremists.
If one iteration gets eliminated, another one pops in using the name.

>I pointed out the Goodwill they already had going for them as the people that stopped the world from ending alongside the current events from the movie.
My argument is that, unlike Durandal and the Minerva who were actually cultivating goodwill, COMPASS only does its thing for the good of the world without concern for PR. Come in, deal with the threat, leave. It's good policy, but mediocre politics.
Even after the Lacus coop defeated Durandal at the end of the second war, there was still opposition to them in and around Eurasia, so what gives? Who is to say that people won't come to the conclusion that their actions are too little, too late?

>My point is that Civilians (Natural and Coordinator alike) have historically gotten fucked over by Blue Cosmos in every iteration. They have literally killed thousands of naturals just to catch maybe a hundred coordinators in the crossfire. They've never done or accomplished any good for the world
Yes. Yes, exactly. They should've been obliterated from the face of the earth after the Logos purge.
And even so, they got enough strength to become a global nuisance that required the intervention of the world's most elite MS pilots.

>Was the logic of people being tired of constant threat under WMDs (either by BC or the likes of Foundation) somehow leading to people valuing "strength?"
I think people would rather fall, yet again, towards an "anti-Coordinator" sentiment than the tiredness you're describing. This is the kind of social trauma that doesn't heal.

>I could just as well say the Accords will be swept under the rug as a freaky in that Compass took care of and call it a day.
Knowing how Fukuda works, that can very well happen. As we argued before, they want to forget about Lacus being an Accord.

>>23332801
>>23332826
Athrun is the only person still on Shinn's shit list. Even Cagalli isn't on there anymore.

>>23332970
>COMPASS only does its thing for the good of the world without concern for PR. Come in, deal with the threat, leave. It's good policy, but mediocre politics.

Kira's apparently become pretty famous as a hero (at least among people who aren't pissed that he stops their side too) so I don't know about that. At the very least Compass also stays in the area to help clean up and rescue people afterwards so I don't really know how much better they can play it politically

>>23332970
>If one iteration gets eliminated, another one pops in using the name.
When they're the only thing left causing a ruckus/disrupting the lives of folks on Earth, whatever support they might have gained following the Foundation fiasco is going to peter out. By that point, they're just doing Compass's PR for them, which leads to extending goodwill and creating the change that will truly turn them more and more into a relic of the past.
>Come in, deal with the threat, leave
It sounds like a problem that could be solved by cooperating with journalists for footage. Lacus has the connections, so it's not off the table. As for doing too little too late, I was actually considering something similar and thought of something. They could probably score some more goodwill (and give their pilots a much needed break) by building some preventative measures for at-risk areas. Collabing with ZAFT, they could maybe get some defense systems working (maybe a fence of Artemis barriers) or some souped up shelters.
>Got enough strength
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they literally steal their shit from some EA base? I agree that their survival in any capacity feels a bit ridiculous, but at the same time, they're very clearly a shell of their former selves. Look at them using Guerilla tactics to stay relevant. Since when did these morons ever use tactics?
>This is the kind of social trauma that doesn't heal.
I think exhaustion/numbness is just as valid a response to that though, especially for those who still have something to go back to. That's not even taking into consideration the advancements coordinators have made In tech. Meanwhile, Earth has seemingly stagnated. I think for the average natural, it's just more trouble than it's worth at this point to rev up the old hate.
>They want to forget about Lacus being an Accord
I gave my two cents on a potential explanation for that here >>23332790

>>23333052
Everything Blue Cosmos has was taken by defectors when they left the Alliance.

>>23333052
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they literally steal their shit from some EA base?
As far as anyone knows, no.

I mentioned this on a different thread, but the Blue Cosmos forces, our bad guys for the first act of the movie, use Earth Alliance uniforms, emblems and even MS colors.
Visual distinction is an important element in anime. Even something as short as Stargazer made the effort: the insurgent GINN is olive green with extra attachments, the Phantom Pain Daggers are black instead of white. In Freedom, "Blue Cosmos" looks exactly like the regular Earth Alliance: they don't even use those colored arm tapes to differentiate forces in the battlefield.

>>23333080
That's consistent with how they were portrayed in SEED and Destiny though.

>>23333936
>That's consistent with how they were portrayed in SEED and Destiny though.
Not exactly. In SEED and Destiny, they were part of the Earth Alliance. In Freedom, they're supposed to be terrorists.
And again, it's a aesthetic issue: the Blue Cosmos-affiliated MS (top) look identical to the regular Eurasian ones (bottom), so we don't "feel" that Kira is doing anything wrong visually.

>>23333080
>Our bad guys for the first act of the movie, use Earth Alliance uniforms, emblems and even MS colors.
Isn't that just to their advantage? Their whole thing in Freedom is playing loose with hit and run terrorist attacks. The uniforms and mobile suits would just be another layer of camouflage.

>>23334233
>Isn't that just to their advantage?
>The uniforms and mobile suits would just be another layer of camouflage.
A priority on the battlefield is to differentiate friend from foe, for any side.

>>23334264
Not for guerrilla terrorists. Their best asset is blending in. You'd want the enemy to have a hard time differentiating you from people they'd get in trouble if they shot at

>>23334212
Daggers are so fucking cool!!

>>23332914
He just puts it on Djbril and Logos I guess. It's not like him taking a stand would have changed anything, Djbril would have just ordered the other Logos goons there to kill Neo reprogram Stella and Sting into seeing someone else as their boss/father figure and have this other guy do it. He was basically stuck.

>>23334282
>You'd want the enemy to have a hard time differentiating you from people they'd get in trouble if they shot at
But if that is the case, why are the Eurasians playing by Blue Cosmos's rules and not adding some kind of marking to their own units, rather than just hoping that they don't get confused by anyone?
Even the Minerva faction's pilots bothered to paint their Zulus to avoid friendly fire incidents.

Again, it's an aesthetic oversight by Fukuda that I don't remember anyone else ever doing (that's why Titans and AEUG colors are a thing). His logic was basically "eh, those are mob trash units from the alliance or blue cosmos or whatever. our guys just style on them. they aren't even getting model kits anyway".

>>23334694
>It's not like him taking a stand would have changed anything, Djbril would have just ordered the other Logos goons there to kill Neo reprogram Stella and Sting into seeing someone else as their boss/father figure and have this other guy do it. He was basically stuck.
No, I'm talking about AFTER he becomes Mwu again. He never feels any kind of contrition for the actions he took as Neo.
And again, whatever bullshit happened to Stella personally is a drop in the bucket compared to the scale of destruction she inflicted on his orders.

>>23336770
*on Djibril's orders

>>23336773
Not an argument, either legally (didn't work in Nuremberg either) and especially not morally.

>>23336764
I mean, I can concede an aesthetic oversight on Fukuda's part, but what does that reallly do for your overall argument?
>>23336770
NTA, but it seems his argument still works. The devastation that took place in Berlin happens with or without him, and that's without factoring in the fact that he was brainwashed.

>>23336825
>but what does that reallly do for your overall argument?
That the Eurasians are being really stupid for not marking their own mobile suits if there's a bunch of terrorists using the same colors.

>>23336847
>That the Eurasians are being really stupid
You had me there.

>>23336825
I still feel the brainwashing/amnesia is meant to be the show's excuse for why Mu doesn't show any regret for anything he did as Neo or face any consequences now that he's back with the good guys again. And like I said before, it's not like anyone outside of COMPASS knows Mu and Neo are the same person or ever will for that matter. As far as the rest of the world is concerned Neo Roanoke is dead.

>>23336778
I don't want to get all Ace Attorney here, but a few points.
>The Nuremberg trials were targeted at policy makers - Djibril in this case. Subordinate officers weren't really pursued, and in later tribunals like the Yugoslav tribunals, subordinate officers under coercion received lighter sentences. The superior orders defense isn't exonerating, but is a mitigating factor.
>Article 31 of the Rome statute of the ICC may apply - that he was suffering from a mental disease or defect (brainwashing) or under duress caused by threat of death.
>His later actions to prevent the use of a superweapon that would destroy the nation of Orb show he has regard for human life and a willingness to prevent further atrocities.
At worst, I couldn't see Neo getting more than 10 years before the Battle at Messiah, and couldn't see him getting more than 5 (possibly with immediate parole) after Messiah.

>>23336922
SHIT I erased one and forgot to put it back in.
>The mission was to engage ZAFT forces in Europe using the brand new Destroy, civilians weren't targeted but were collateral damage due to the overwhelming power of the machine

>>23336957
>civilians weren't targeted but were collateral damage
Djibril's words say otherwise. Innocent civilians were definitely a target of the Destroy's rampage.

>>23337053
Djibril is a fuckin' psycho who absolutely made them use the Destroy knowing it would cause insane collateral damage and reveled in it, but the orders were pic related. Stella for her part seems to consciously engage only ZAFT units and the Freedom, and most of the civilian damage is just due to the thing spraying beams and missiles everywhere.

>>23337245
Djibril's orders sound less like directly targeting ZAFT and more like sending the Destroy, thinking it unstoppable, to obliterate anything in its path: both ZAFT forces and Eurasian civilians.
In other words, the civilian deaths aren't "collateral damage", but part of the operation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateral_damage
>any incidental and undesired death, injury or other damage inflicted, especially on civilians, as the result of an activity
>Collateral damage does not include civilian casualties caused by military operations that are intended to terrorize or kill enemy civilians (e.g., the bombing of Chongqing during World War II and Russian strikes against Ukrainian infrastructure openly described as "retaliatory" and intended to "make towns uninhabitable")

The latter description fits Djibril's description of the Destroy's deployment very well. Remember he's absolutely seething at Eurasians siding with ZAFT.

>>23337371
I mean, Djibril's unstated intent isn't really relevant to how culpable Neo should be considered...

>>23332973
It's been a while since I watched Destiny, what made Shinn have a better relationship with Cagalli?

>>23338721
NTA but it’s not really depicted onscreen.
The novelization suggests that Shinn doesn’t lash out at Cagalli out of pure hatred, he also wants her to fire back and stand up for Orb’s ideals. Essentially, “my family died because of Orb’s ideals, why won’t their head of state defend them now?” forms the basis for him to start really hating her.
But then by the end of the series, she mans up and takes charge of Orb, and actively works to protect its people proactively. He really has no reason not to patch things up with her.

>>23338721
>The novelization suggests that Shinn doesn’t lash out at Cagalli out of pure hatred, he also wants her to fire back and stand up for Orb’s ideals. Essentially, “my family died because of Orb’s ideals, why won’t their head of state defend them now?” forms the basis for him to start really hating her.
This is contradicted by what we see on the series. Shinn hates Orb and its ruling Attha family for those very ideals. He used to believe in Orb's ideals, but after losing his family, all of that rhetoric is now perceived as weakness. Their spiel can be reduced to "neutrality = peace", but that's an idea that was violently destroyed, so Cagalli insisting with that crap is the epitome of nonsense on Shinn's mind.

Think about it: Uzumi refused to yield to Azrael's demands, and Shinn's family was killed. Ergo, if Orb had pushed aside the idealism of its leadership and accepted geopolitical realities (for instance, by officially joining forces with PLANT's Siegel Clyne), they would been alive.

Also, Cagalli is the one that's out of line berating the ZAFT guys while she's a guest on their ship.

>>23338793
You think Orb allying with the PLANTs would dissuade the Alliance from invading…?

>>23338793
It's already said in Destiny that Orb is not in a location where Plant can easily come to it's aid if it's attacked. Allying with them would have just gotten them invaded earlier. And even if the Earth forces just ignore them for most of the war, once Patrick takes over he's already in total Natural Death mode and won't spare Earth for the sake of Orb.

>>23338804
Maybe not (try as you might, you can't manipulate your enemy's political intentions), but it would give Orb enough military strength to fight any potential invasion.

>>23336922
Also the one thing people seem to forget about the Nuremberg trials is that in most cases the people claiming they were only following orders were BSing them and they knew it because most of them were deliberately as cruel and monstrous as possible because they thought it would get them Hitler's favor.

>>23338810
>It's already said in Destiny that Orb is not in a location where Plant can easily come to it's aid if it's attacked.
Has it occurred to you that Yuna is a lying sack of shit that hates Coordinators? Regardless of the fact that ZAFT has a massive base near Orb's homeland, PLANT was able to launch a massive airlift to help Earth in the wake of Break the World. And you are telling me, just because that moron said so, that ZAFT doesn't have the ability to help Orb?

>Allying with them would have just gotten them invaded earlier.
And invasions can be successfully defended against, especially with a treaty ally. Why is this so difficult to understand?

>>23338811
I don't think a couple Zaft MS garrisons stationed there, which is all they'd likely get since Orb is far away from where all the major action is, would be a particular help against a full on Alliance invasion.

>>23338831
yet they were able to bring enough forces later to invade orb themselves

>>23338742
>>23338793
>>23338811
Cagalli's attitude isn't "naïve", but outright moronic. She's blaming ZAFT and Durandal for the actions of a rogue group that almost killed her. Her only argument is "waaah waaah didnt we all wanted peace", when the attackers (which we later learn are an anti-Coordinator task force from the Earth Alliance) are not interested on the bullshit she's selling.
The writing is trying to make you see her point, but I'm as angry as Shinn is in that last shot.

>>23338916
Idk who you’re arguing with but I’ll bite - how is she wrong? Durandal is boasting about how great his country’s mobile suits are, immediately after three got stolen and went on a rampage. What good did “having power” do for Armory One?

>>23338793
>>23338916
Surely you see this is contradictory?
>Orb shouldn’t have taken a stand, they should have joined the genocidal war
>ZAFT was right to rearm itself without cooperating with the other powers, even though it ended disastrously

>>23338916
In her defense, she has a head injury

>>23338978
in an ideal world, cagalli isn't wrong to try to push peace. the armory one attack would be perceived at minimum as an embarrassment for ZAFT, a national security crisis for PLANT, and a blow to the perceived competency of Durandal or whoever the fuck is the equivalent of minister of defense for PLANT. but this is CE where everyone who isn't kira and friends are stupid and greedy, everyone else has agenda to escalate current politics toward war. durandal benefits because it's step zero of his secret master plan, EA benefits because they just want to steal latest enemy tech and fuck over coordinators. armory one attack is quickly swept away and never properly investigated, some retard coordinator in charge probably literally just said "oh it's just naturals being naturals" and handwave it away as it is an inevitable act of nature of someshit

>>23338793
But then he's shocked when Orb bends the knee to the alliance. I think it's more that Shinn hates Orb for not having the power to defend itself.

>>23338978
>Durandal is boasting about how great his country’s mobile suits are, immediately after three got stolen and went on a rampage.
Which proves that they are pretty good machines.

>What good did “having power” do for Armory One?
There's a difference between tactics and strategy. The theft was an "intelligence failure" (the fact that it might've been orchestrated by Durandal is a different matter), but that doesn't take away from the fact that PLANT has a foe that's determined to destroy it by any means possible. Cagalli, on the other hand, ignores both the responsibility that a leader has to protect its people (sounds familiar...) and the reality of the world with people like Blue Cosmos in positions of power.

>>23338984
>ZAFT was right to rearm itself without cooperating with the other powers
But ZAFT did exactly that, keeping its side of the agreement on weapons limits and inviting a foreign leader to their new military base. Cagalli is upset about the rearmaming happening in the first place. And the fact that Orb refugees are working in their development, a matter she has no say in.

>>23339011
A lesson that Cagalli learns, given she proactively uses the Orb space fleet to oppose Durandal and Foundation later.
She wanted Orb to just sit idle in its own bubble instead of actually being a world power

>>23339025
>given she proactively uses the Orb space fleet to oppose Durandal and Foundation later.
So why does she keep the "neutrality" charade if they are a PLANT ally?

>She wanted Orb to just sit idle in its own bubble
Neutrality means exactly that, consequences be damned.

>>23339013
Isn't part of Cagali's problem here also owed to Earth Forces breathing down her neck with allegations of assisting ZAFT?

>>23339013
>a strike team made up of infantry backed by outdated old Daggers is able to lay waste to your military base that you’re showing off, and they steal three new units
>said new units are so much stronger than the rest of your forces that only another newer model can match them
>as you have soldiers dying, warships being crippled in the harbor, you start boasting about the one mobile suit you have left
If anything she didn’t tell enough.

>>23339030
You realize I’m talking about much later in the series… right? After Cagalli has her arc?

>>23339054
Yes, I am aware. But Orb still maintains their "neutrality" stance, despite it making no sense thanks to Terminal and various other public and secret schemes.

>>23339057
Which part of the “do not invade other countries, do not allow other countries to invade, and do not intervene in other countries’ conflicts” does she not abide by?

>>23339065
>do not intervene in other countries’ conflicts
That one.

>>23339066
How so?

>>23339069
Maybe we can accommodate the operation against Durandal as "acting on self-defense", but Compass has no justification: Orb is providing direct technical support, personnel and hardware to an organization whose agenda is to literally "intervene in other countries' conflicts".

Why was Aegis forgotten?

>>23339074
Oh okay, I was genuinely confused.
Compass is an international agency specifically given peacekeeping authority. Orb’s fleet doesn’t intervene until Requiem gets aimed at them.

>>23339090
Unsalvageable.

>>23339090
Technical dead-end. Neither ZAFT nor the Alliance bothered with such a complicated transformation scheme again.

>>23339107
nah man, both zaft and the alliance bothered with it, and they went full retard

regenerate gundam has a similar profile to the Aegis but it's scaled up to basically psyco gundam size and the body can split into 7 independent modules that can fight on their own, and if damaged the modules can be replaced in the middle of battle.

rosso aegis gundam adds even MORE transformations. it has extra backpack binders that can form into flight wings in MS mode, the chest can open up to fire the beam cannon and have bending capability similar to forbidden, and there's some kinda fuckstupid 4 legged mode where the rear binders are used as additional legs

>>23338881
Because that was where their major enemy was and the war was otherwise over so they massed their Earthbound forces to invade. Zaft is not gonna station the majority of their forces in Orb to protect it from EA's reprisal, they've got a war to fight on several other fronts. Orb isn't a strategic location for them. It's out in the middle of the ocean away from both EA fronts, they already have a mass driver, they already have mobile suits and they already have space colonies. They'd be able to set someone like Waldfeld's squad there to operate out of Orb at best. They can't have the majority of their fleet guarding Orb.

>>23339074
It's not breaking neutrality to supply equipment. The US did it in WW2 prior to joining the war and is still doing it in Ukraine. And the personnel are Compass personnel, not Orb. They aren't considered part of the Orb army.

>>23339870
enemies will always complain it breaks neutrality unless you tell them to fuck off instead of supplying any form of anything other than a middle finger

>>23339090
I still think this was the coolest Athrun suit design wise. I love the shoulders and head.

>>23339837
I should've pointed out ON THE MAINLINE SERIES, NOT ASTRAY OR MSV.

>>23339870
>>23339891
Anon, it's not a legal issue: there are dozens of loopholes you can come up with to maintain cover; just ask Switzerland.
The issue is that this "neutrality" is sold as one of the country's core principles (and, to be fair, these are really the Atthas' principles: the Seirans and the other nobles didn't care much about them). It's not like these principles are either legally binding, since the Seirans did aid the Atlantic Federation eventually; or that Orb had its neutrality imposed by a foreign power, like what happened to Finland or Austria after WWII.

Cagalli was crying about merely helping the EA with a weapons program on the first war, made a huge hissy fit in front of the cabinet ("dame da! dame da! dame da!") about Orb joining the "World Security Treaty Organization" on the second, and now she's actively intervening on the conflicts of other countries. Just because they're wearing different uniforms and insignia doesn't take away from the obvious fact that they are Orb personnel, thus, a violation in principle of Orb's self-proclaimed principles.

I finally watched the Seed movie yesterday.
It was very Seed, so I didn't really like it but I guess it must've made Seed fans happy, which was the main objective.

It made Kira look pretty bad with his insane savior complex - he genuinely believes he has the capacity to singlehandedly bring about permanent peace and he gives up on the world the moment something doesn't go his way.
I guess it's an upgrade from Destiny where he's perfectly infallible and always correct; also Assram slapping his shit was satisfying.

I think this final fight was even more of a FLAWLESS VICTORY than Destiny and Kira's ultimate gundam was so idiotically overpowered that it doesn't even make sense. This is gundam so obviously there's a degree of suspension of disbelief but out of all the shows, Seed was the setting where the energy level of suits actually mattered at certain points, a gundam conjuring a gigantic thunderstorm disabling gorillion missiles and then shooting some lazor that destroyed multiple ships was just silly to me.

>>23340000
Oh, then most of the Gundams onscreen are dead end failures then. Of the original 5 prototypes, only Strike has any kind of continuing lineage. Forbidden has like a single MP version of it show up in animation in Destiny.

>>23338721
There's not too much detail aside from Fukuda saying that they patched up offscreen on twitter, he also said Shinn patched up with Mu as well, and an Audio Drama stating he apologized to her since they never interacted with each other in Freedom.
https://youtu.be/1bAgUXdHp6U?si=0JJdNH-3qhmBHhja&t=76

>>23340089
>he genuinely believes he has the capacity to singlehandedly bring about permanent peace
Apart from mulling on Durandal's death (and it's not like Kira killed him), he doesn't care very much about peace and that that crap. It's only a means to an end: Lacus's love. That's the one and only reason he goes through all that.

>and he gives up on the world the moment something doesn't go his way
Considering that the world keeps fighting itself to the death and he can merely just put out the occasional terrorist flareup, it makes sense. And besides, why does the fate of the world have to depend on him (or rather, a core group of people) almost exclusively?

>Seed was the setting where the energy level of suits actually mattered at certain points
Only at the very beginning of the first series; things go off the rails very quickly. The equivalent tech development that takes UC half a century happens in less than five years in CE.

>>23340105
>And besides, why does the fate of the world have to depend on him (or rather, a core group of people) almost exclusively?
Problem is most people in the Cosmic Era aside from Kira, Lacus, and all of their allies are either evil, misguided, or both. Plus, if a new villain comes along, they'll most likely go after Kira and Lacus first. Seeing them as the biggest threat just like Durandal in Destiny.

>>23340078
>Just because they're wearing different uniforms and insignia doesn't take away from the obvious fact that they are Orb personnel, thus, a violation in principle of Orb's self-proclaimed principles.

Considering they'd seemingly given up their Orb military commissions to be part of Compass (which isn't even HQed in Orb) then they wouldn't be considered Orb military personnel anymore, unless you somehow believe that being part of the Orb army means you are forever part of it even if you resign and join another force.

>>23340105
>Apart from mulling on Durandal's death (and it's not like Kira killed him)

He basically did. The only reason Kira didn't personally shoot him is Rey got to him first but Kira effectively lead the charge that deposed Durandal so he may as well have killed him personally.

>>23340105
>Considering that the world keeps fighting itself to the death and he can merely just put out the occasional terrorist flareup, it makes sense. And besides, why does the fate of the world have to depend on him (or rather, a core group of people) almost exclusively?
I think Compass is fucking stupid but him refusing to fight the Accords because "muh Lacus keked me (maybe)", when he was the one who gave them the excuse to pull the trigger in the first place, was pure selfishness. Especially when they were about to nuke his sister.

>>23329223 (OP)
>no other gundam series has a more entertaining interactions between the protag and deuteragonist
78 cleans.

I love how based Athrun is. Even though he was totally gay for Kira, he managed to stay a hetero chad by banging the sister instead

>>23340439
Athrun canonically has a side hoe and Cagalli just accepts it.

>>23340439
>Assram
>based
The idiot is the reason why the events of Destiny happened as they did.

Shinn should have killed him.

Lunamaria canonically has the most plump and tight cockpit

>>23340466
Even though it makes sense in terms of skill levels and Athrun 'actually trying', Athrun defeating Shinn at the end feels really undeserved. The show tries to portray it as the master finally putting down the wayward student, but Athrun was such a shit mentor because the plot required him to be useless and talk gibberish for Shinn to remain aligned with ZAFT.

>>23340585
I think the Athrun vs Shinn fight is mostly meant to display just how much Shinn had deteriorated due to not actually understanding the cause - he doesn't actually want to be on the side that genocides Orb but he tries to convince himself that it's necessary for the world without war he's being promised.

>>23340439
>>23340452
The only women Athrun is attracted are women related to Kira. If Via was still alive, he'd probably want to fuck her too.

>>23340089
>>23340105
While Lacus does factor heavily into his motivations, I do think saying it was just that would be hugely reductionist. He got the only man with a long-term plan for fixing the Cosmic Era killed, and has only managed to drum up a peacekeeping force in return that has spent its entire first half putting out fires caused by other conflicts. This is to say nothing of stagnating relations between Coordinators and Naturals, which fuels these wars to begin with. The longer the CE stagnates, the heavier the guilt for that action (not to say he would realistically make a different choice), the larger the need to personally fix this mess that he caused and left his loved ones (Lacus especially) to fix. Realistically, placing the blame and burden almost entirely on himself doesn't make a lot of sense, but these things hardly operate on logic alone.
>>23340133
>I think Compass is fucking stupid
In what regard?

>>23340095
>>23338742
>offscreen
Damn it, I hate it when that happens.

>>23340913
>He got the only man with a long-term plan for fixing the Cosmic Era killed, and has only managed to drum up a peacekeeping force in return that has spent its entire first half putting out fires caused by other conflicts.
Orphee is a pathetic, manipulative sack of shit whose main interest was robbing Lacus, but his argument still stands: the only things Kira (and the rest of his little "nakama") is able to create are chaos, destruction, hatred and death.

>This is to say nothing of stagnating relations between Coordinators and Naturals, which fuels these wars to begin with.
Exactly. Unless Lacus and her coop come to terms with this reality, the only possible future for the CE is perpetual war.

>>23341376
The Destiny Plan isn't a solution either, as the movie clearly shows. It will just flip the scale so the Coordinators/Accords are the abusive assholes.

>>23340752
I wouldn't blame him.

>>23341376
I wouldn't call that Orphee 's point with his argument, but he'd be full of shit if it were.
Even if Kira/co. bent the knee to the Destiny Plan, Blue Cosmos remnants would still exist, Foundation would still exist (and hardly be content to accept a system that didn't outright enslave naturals and put them at the top), and while relations might diminish with competition becoming less of a thing, there would still be plenty unwilling to accept Durandal's answer, which would lead to further conflict. These issues have no bearing on Kira/Compass's actions breeding hatred (which they haven't, as far as we can tell).
I've already said this before, but Compass/co. being unable to change things is hardly a foregone conclusion, especially by the movie's end.
Anon, Lacus, Murrue and Kira are literally the first ones to inform us of the problems currently plaguing the setting, including shitty race relations. Lack of awareness isn't the problem here.

>>23342943
>Even if Kira/co. bent the knee to the Destiny Plan, Blue Cosmos remnants would still exist,
No, they wouldn't. An important part of the Destiny Plan is enforcement: hunting down and if necessary kill anyone who opposes it. While the hard deterrence factor is provided by Requiem, a task force of elite pilots is still required for whatever task where a giant doom laser is overkill.
For Durandal, it's Shinn and Rey.
For Aura, it's the Black Knights.

>>23342943
>I've already said this before, but Compass/co. being unable to change things is hardly a foregone conclusion,
The movie's finale is telling to Naturals that Coordinators cannot be trusted in any regard, since they got the planet blasted by a madman twice already. And a bunch of Coordinators will look at Orphee and think "yeah, we ought to be rulers of this world and use the Natural untermenschen as serfs". Or what, you think people are just gonna "forgive and forget" as to everything that transpired just because Lacus says so?
As much firepower as they might have, as many political leaders they can rally to their proposals, Lacus and her coop cannot change people's hearts. At least not at the scale where it would make a difference.

>Lacus, Murrue and Kira are literally the first ones to inform us of the problems currently plaguing the setting, including shitty race relations. Lack of awareness isn't the problem here.
If they acknowledge things haven't improved much, then the only logical conclusion is that they are doomed to hunt terrorists and wannabe overlords for eternity.

>he doesn't know there's an entire subculture dedicating to rewriting SEED

>>23344717
>an entire subculture dedicating to rewriting SEED
Nigger, what the fuck are you even talking about?

>>23344721
>he doesn't know anything about fanfics

>>23344692
Yeah but what exactly is the argument here? That the world is just fucked and everyone should die like Rau said? Durandal wasn't a solution he was just going to turn the world over to the Accords who also weren't a solution, they were just gonna be the evil tyrants themselves. The Lacus faction putting out fires and stopping wannabe overlords is pretty much the only "good" solution no matter how flawed because at least some people can be free and have peace for some amounts of time. Yeah you can't make everyone like each other and have total peace but no Gundam universe can.

>>23344523
>A task force of elite pilots
So...Compass? You also failed to account for Foundation very likely trying to take down/undermine Durandal for being too soft on the Naturals/fucking them out of their glory.
>>23344692
>The movie's finale is telling to Naturals that Coordinators cannot be trusted in any regard
>The movie where the day is ultimately saved by a group of coordinators and naturals is telling to Naturals that Coordinators can't be trusted
There's no doubt that Orphee's dumbass set relations back, but that doesn't suddenly mean things will stay that way. With the universe running out of threats readily available to cause trouble for civilians besides Blue Cosmos (which is running on fumes), Compass just needs to keep doing what it has been doing (maybe with more humanitarian aid/preventative measures) to help the world heal overtime.
>And a bunch of Coordinators will look at Orphee and think "yeah, we ought to be rulers of this world[...]"
Maybe if Orphee managed to accomplish something other than embarrass himself. As is, he lacks any sort of charisma or passion to believably inspire many. One should also note that the coordinators would have been under the Accords too, so that's a conflict itself waiting to happen. Foundation with all its tech advantages couldn't take down Compass, but some dollar store armies are supposed to?
>forgive and forget
Relations between Coordinators and Naturals were improving over SEED Destiny despite the second Bloody Valentine literally starting with Coordinators attempting to drop a colony on the Earth. If Durandal can accomplish that overtime using PR and a single ship for the most part, there's no reason to believe Compass can't accomplish the same.
>They are doomed to hunt terrorists and wannabe overlords for eternity
Arguably what Kira resolved to do by the end of Destiny. That said, it's only been a year. Problems this deep are going to take some time to solve.

>>23344993
>besides Blue Cosmos (which is running on fumes)
And you don't think a major city being obliterated by Coordinators isn't enough to put thousands of people behind anti-Coordinator ideas? As I said before, "Blue Cosmos" isn't much of an organization, but rather a brand name.

>Compass just needs to keep doing what it has been doing (maybe with more humanitarian aid/preventative measures) to help the world heal overtime.
That task is just too big for our main characters to achieve on their own. What you are proposing is bigger than them.

>Maybe if Orphee managed to accomplish something other than embarrass himself. As is, he lacks any sort of charisma or passion to believably inspire many.
It's less about Orphee himself and about the basic idea of Coordinator supremacy, which got enough buy-in from ZAFT to get a bunch of their personnel involved in a coup. Don't mistake the messenger for the message.

>One should also note that the coordinators would have been under the Accords too, so that's a conflict itself waiting to happen.
Yes, but as a privileged caste under the system: Aura as Empress, Black Knights as court nobility, Coordinators as samurai and Naturals as subhuman "eta" (穢多, "great filth") serfs.

>If Durandal can accomplish that overtime using PR and a single ship for the most part
That's because the Earth Alliance were ruthless motherfuckers that were literally enslaving people. When you come off as the humane alternative to an occupation army, you get half of the job done.

>>23345077
Again you aren't really suggesting a solution otherwise that doesn't also involve a ton of death and oppression

>>23344692
This is just the typical SEED hater take
Blue Cosmos went from the de facto rulers of the Alliance to a fringe separate from their main forces to a barely functional guerrila force that gets literally nuked
The Zala hardliners are all dead, the Durandal hardliners are all in prison or dead
CE’s extremists weed themselves out, it’s just a matter of time before CE is perfectly fine

>>23344993
>So...Compass?
Congratulations, you figured it out!

Think about it, Anon. Aura tells us that Lacus was created to be "loved by the people and guide them", which is exactly what has been happening. With her, an Accord, at the forefront of global events and a squad of elite MS to act on her behalf, we are basically looking at the implementation of a Diet Destiny Plan. Even if they aren't creating a caste society nor using city-destroying superweapons on innocents, the other elements of a wise leader at the top with loyal enforcers are pretty much identical.

And I don't think Fukuda realized the implications of this. From a writing perspective, it would've been much better if the Black Knights had wanted Lacus for her symbolic value as a leader (to use a historical example, Mussolini as putative leader of the German puppet RSI) to give Orphee some legitimacy, in the same way Durandal used Meer: "a fake didn't work out, so let's kidnap the real one". Instead, we got a lot of ridiculous character favoritism with her being an Accord with literal mind control powers.

>>23345113
>we are basically looking at the implementation of a Diet Destiny Plan
No we aren’t, that’s dumb Darth Lacus bullshit

>>23345108
>to a fringe separate from their main forces to a barely functional guerrila force that gets literally nuked
Didn't you read what I said later? You think they wouldn't get their movement sup

>The Zala hardliners are all dead
That's what everyone thought, and yet the PLANT Defense Chairman went all the way to the top and attempted a coup.

>the Durandal hardliners are all in prison or dead
Or rehabilitated, like Agnes's family.

When the fuck are you going to understand that radicals are a thing that isn't just "eliminated"? That they get constantly reinforced (or weakened) as events transpire? The US spent two decades fighting the Taliban and decided to throw the towel at the end.

>>23345132
>You think they wouldn't get their movement sup
*supported and strengthened in the aftermath of Moscow's destruction, both militarily and in popularity?

>>23345121
>that’s dumb Darth Lacus bullshit
Except it's not a dumb fan theory anymore. We are literally being told in the movie that it is exactly the case.

>>23345132
>You think they wouldn't get their movement sup
No, they’re done
>the rest
You aren’t at all in touch with what goes on in Cosmic Era, you’re trying to paint a narrative off of “what if” instead of “what is”

>>23345138
It is a dumb fan theory, the movie directly contradicts the idea that Lacus wants ultimate power, and she expressly has no idea she even has special powers

>>23345153
>No, they’re done
Says who? You?

>You aren’t at all in touch with what goes on in Cosmic Era
Okay, then, what about the ZAFT radicals that went along with the coup? Why wouldn't a similar group pop in again?

>the movie directly contradicts the idea that Lacus wants ultimate power
It's not about what Lacus wants, but what she is effectively doing towards the world. She's not an "influential figure" anymore, but someone created to be Empress of the World acting in such as role.

>>23345113
>we are basically looking at the implementation of a Diet Destiny Plan. Even if they aren't creating a caste society nor using city-destroying superweapons on innocents, the other elements of a wise leader at the top with loyal enforcers are pretty much identical.

Lacus heads the global police at best, and she's likely stepping away from that post movie too. If anything the movie confirms she didn't become the global overlord like everyone thought after Destiny since she quickly stepped down from any form of Zaft leadership.

>>23345178
>Lacus heads the global police at best
Which is functionally the same as what Durandal intended for his two knights, "submit to my will or get destroyed".

>and she's likely stepping away from that post movie too.
Except for the "lol not really" epilogue.

>the movie confirms she didn't become the global overlord like everyone thought after Destiny
What do you think leading Compass is all about? She has the ear of PLANT's Chairman and is more influential than anyone else.

>>23345164
>Says who?
Basic logic bro - they're literally just international terrorists who indiscriminately attack Coordinators and Naturals by the time of Freedom, nobody is going to look at the actions of the Accords, stopped by a group that's mostly Coordinators, and conclude "wow I'd love to become a suicide bomber now!"
>Why wouldn't a similar group pop in again?
I literally said that extremists weed themselves out in CE - if they pop in again, they'll be stopped again (the same for if a group like Blue Cosmos formed again)
>acting in such as role.
Wrong, she literally turned down that exact role. Did you even watch the movie??

>>23345205
>Which is functionally the same as what Durandal intended for his two knights, "submit to my will or get destroyed".
Wrong, Compass is subject to international law and oversight

>What do you think leading Compass is all about?
Bro thinks pic related runs the world

>>23345205
>Except for the "lol not really" epilogue.

They're not going back to Compass in the epilogue they're staying with Kira's parents and taking it easy for awhile, just with Strike Freedom in the basement incase another global disaster happens.

>>23345077
>And you don't think a major city being obliterated by Coordinators isn't enough to put thousands of people behind anti-Coordinator ideas?
Anon, the goal isn't to totally erase racism from the world. It's just to get things so people can actually live their lives without an existential threat looming over their heads. Your argument that Blue Cosmos is just a brand name at this point strengthens my point that their power is fading. Not even the old hate that the Destiny Plan reveal no doubt stirred can get BC more than what we see in the movie. Even if we see an uptick in activity for them in the short term, in the long-term they'll inevitably shoot themselves in the foot and do Compass's job for them.
>That task is just too big for our main characters to achieve on their own.
Even of that were true, that doesn't make it impossible at all. Perhaps they can't, but they can make some friends who can get the ball rolling. Or perhaps they can't but they can make things just stable enough to facilitate a path for the ones who can.
>Don't mistake the messenger for the message
People by and large won't entertain your ideas if you can't even get them to respect you. The one face of the ZAFT mutineers we get is blatantly using Foundation as an excuse for getting revenge on Naturals for Junius 7, so he wasn't even particularly enticed by the message, though he does pay it lip service at first (same with Agnes if you want to count her).
>As a privileged caste
Doesn't that just make it even easier for uppity coordinators wanting even more from life to cause meaningful disruptions?
>That's because the Earth Alliance were ruthless motherfuckers that were literally enslaving people
How is that particularly different from BC and Foundation, then? If anything, people are going to take them to task for not doing MORE now, which can open the door to them getting more funding.

Was the energy crisis on Earth ever resolved? I remember talk about using the N-Jammer cancellers for this in SEED but I don't recall it being brought up past that point or even in the epilogue.

>>23345357
The Junius Treaty only bans NJCs for military use. It hasn't explicitly been stated afaik, but it's safe to assume that means that reactors on Earth are outfitted with NJCs between shows, so the energy crisis is over.

>>23345098
Complaining about shit without offering any sensible solutions is just the way of the modern world, man.

>>23345357
Such details are unimportant to Fukada's world

>>23345098
>>23345693
There has to be some sort of solution that isn't a stark choice between...
>the peace of the world depends on a handful of people led by Lacus Clyne
and
>perpetual oppression under the Destiny Plan

>>23345825
Any solution between those two extremes requires the people of CE to not be bloodthirsty retards, and while that's entirely possible with enough of a cultural push over time, that doesn't sell Gunpla (unless CE goes full Awakening of the Trailblazer). So Team Lacus World Police it is.

>>23345851
>unless CE goes full Awakening of the Trailblazer
Which isn't a bad idea. The whale fossil was hinting at some sort of extraterrestrial life, a shared thread (aliens) would work out to put aside differences, and Coordinators were created to explore the deep cosmos.

I think >>23345861
>>23345851 you're both onto something. Before the war, people's perception of coordinators was pretty decent, all things considered. Something about the pitch of coordinators as the next step or guiding step of humanity into a future in the stars really appealed to people. If that space craze could be recaptured along with some new discoveries, maybe that could lead to some progress. Outside of that, maybe an AI revolution?

>>23345861
One of the nice things that both CCA and Awakening of the Trailblazer do is making the climax feel like a collective effort that demands sacrifice from various factions. At best, the Freedom movie puts a few Earth Alliance ships exploding on the background. Big whoop. Compare that to the Jegans moving to stop Axis, or Graham giving his life to open a way inside the ELS (yes, I know the latter side material resurrected him).
In practice, this means that "heroes styling on retarded villains plotting to conquer the world" needs to go off the window, and I don't think Fukuda is intelligent enough to lay off repeating his old ideas, or that Bandai will ever give the CE to anyone else, Astray notwithstanding.

>>23347807
We've only had like two villains that actually wanted to conquer shit in SEED, though. Btw, does anyone know if Fukuda was brought in for that phone game side story?

>>23347827
>We've only had like two villains that actually wanted to conquer shit in SEED
Yes, and the others want to outright commit genocide.

>>23347807
We make jokes about FLAWLESS VICTORY because there is no sense of sacrifice from our protagonists. Even if they get trashed on the first act, they end up coming up on top after the final battle is over:
>Strike Freedom loses its DRAGOONs, gets a better upgrade. Body takes little damage.
>Infinite Justice loses its silly Z'Gok armor and its right arm against Shura.
>Destiny takes no damage
>Impulse takes no damage
>Duel and Buster take no damage
>Akatsuki takes no damage AFTER TANKING A MOTHERFUCKING REQUIEM SHOT
>Millennium takes no damage
Even Hilda's GELGOOG and Agnes's GYAN are in decent shape.

Compare that to Awakening of the Trailblazer:
>00[Q] and Setsuna are mutated into ELS hybrids
>Raphael/Seravee II is destroyed early
>Harute is destroyed
>Zabanya is wrecked
>Graham's Brave is destroyed in a suicide attack
>Ptolemaios II is almost fully assimilated by the ELS

>>23347851
Even OG SEED's final battle had some losses for our protagonists. Even if Mu ended coming back in Destiny with just a scar.

>>23347865
>Even OG SEED's final battle had some losses for our protagonists.
More than just "some", it was a pretty big toll. Night and day compared to Destiny and Freedom:
>Freedom wrecked, its METEOR destroyed
>Justice (self-)destroyed, alongside its METEOR
>Strike destroyed
>Duel and Buster wrecked
>Archangel heavily damaged. Eternal and Kusanagi took some hits as well.

>>23347851
Akatsuki was actually heavily damaged after blocking Requiem. It basically fucked the suit up bad enough that Mu had to just get the fuck away as fast as possible.

>>23347940
Actually according to the new G Gen story Justice's Meteor survived. When Eternal and AA separate they're still both fucked up from the battle but Eternal has one Meteor attached meaning they must have retrieved it. When the story proper starts two months or so later they even replaced the lost Meteor, although Freedom is still a wreck

>>23348006
Apart from losing the shield and some heat glowing across the armor, it looks fine, considering it received a blast that obliterated a city and an entire fleet.
Shinn did more damage to Akatsuki when Cagalli was piloting it.

>>23348149
It's also sparking and every cockpit alarm is blaring. That was pretty much the limit of the armor

>>23348149
It looks like part of the right shoulder melted completely off.

>>23348209
That’s just the angle.

>>23347807
>In practice, this means that "heroes styling on retarded villains plotting to conquer the world" needs to go off the window, and I don't think Fukuda is intelligent enough to lay off repeating his old ideas
Yeah, CE encountering aliens with Fukuda at the helm is just going to be a redux of Seed Freedom, except the new Orphee and co will have blue skin and be more racist or some shit like that.

>>23347851
>Compare that to Awakening of the Trailblazer
I wouldn't call Setsuna becoming an immortal metal man with God powers and a stronger Gundam a loss by any stretch. Even with the other things you listed, everyone either got out fine or would go on to get revived.

>>23348515
So, he'll just be Sinclair/Lotor?

>>23348522
>I wouldn't call Setsuna becoming an immortal metal man with God powers and a stronger Gundam a loss by any stretch.
There's the symbolism of "Setsuna gives up his own humanity for the sake of the future". Sure, he's "powerful", but at what cost?

>Even with the other things you listed, everyone either got out fine or would go on to get revived.
As I've been saying across this thread, anime is a visual medium. The way things are portrayed on screen is fundamental.
Yes, nobody important got killed other than Graham (and even then...), but seeing everyone fighting to an inch of their lives and getting thrashed left and right gives more weight to the story than just brushing off the bad guys with little consequence.

>>23348593
>Sure, he's powerful, but at what cost?
...None? Like, Setsuna had maybe two to three meaningful connections with anyone within Celestial Being or in the outside world, and his newfound position only really "forced" him to put the weakest one on the backburner.
>Yes, nobody important got killed other than Graham (and even then...), but seeing everyone fighting to an inch of their lives and getting thrashed left and right gives more weight to the story than just brushing off the bad guys with little consequence.
If we were talking about any other foe than the Els, I'd agree.

>>23330273
Generally all Gundam shows or many of them, are set in times where tensions are high and bigots are seen on all sides as a consequence of various precedents that have led to an escalation.

>>23348667
Yeah Setsuna already was so mentally fucked from his past that he was pretty detached from humanity and obsessed with his Gundam work. Turning into an metal alien and leaving humanity behind would have probably not bothered him at all.

>started off dreading SEED due to its reputation
>watch it, do all I can to not enjoy it
>over a decade later, Cosmic Era is hands-down my favorite Gundam setting

>>23347807
>>23347851
I wouldn't call the battle against Foundation a Flawless victory, but I get what you mean. That being said, I believe that the threat being faced dictates context. Graham sacrificing himself against the threat that would go on to not only facilitate his resurrection but his acquirement of a Gundam hardly is too farcical to take seriously the way the team would have meant. To put it in gaming terms, the battle against the Els is a boss raid larping as humanity's last stand.
Axis, as a rock chucked by a bunch of resentful/desperate Spacenoids, has the capacity to represent something bigger than Char and works as a great threat to bring people together. Even for Char, Axis represents something beyond his rivalry with Amuro or his cynicism for humanity.

The Foundation doesn't really work like that. They're an outdated, naive idea from a bygone era trying to drag everyone back down with them by paying lip service to greater concerns in the CE. Compass's opponents are either vengeful fools, or arrogant sheltered fools raised by a literal womanchild. Despite possessing the ability to read minds, they never bothered to really learn about others in a meaningful capacity, and were poorer for it. With the partial exception of Shura, they were also all smug cunts that had the gall to talk about their superiority while jumping everyone with superior tech. All that in mind, is it not somewhat fitting that they wound up getting their shit wrecked by those who actually went through the Bloody Valentine conflicts?

>>23351940
>I wouldn't call the battle against Foundation a Flawless victory, but I get what you mean.
Our heroes style on the bad guys while taking token damage. It's as close as FLAWLESS VICTORY as you can get.

>Graham sacrificing himself against the threat that would go on to not only facilitate his resurrection but his acquirement of a Gundam hardly is too farcical to take seriously the way the team would have meant.

>With the partial exception of Shura
Shura is the most arrogant of the bunch: "i'm the bestest soldier ever!". You're probably thinking of Ingrid.

>All that in mind, is it not somewhat fitting that they wound up getting their shit wrecked by those who actually went through the Bloody Valentine conflicts?
To me, at least, no. I don't feel like our protagonists are going through any lasting sacrifice in this battle (note that Fukuda brings back the old flashbacks: Nicol, Natarle, that guy that got decapitated by the Aegis's shield). The effort feels like it was made by this small group of people rather than shared among the world, which is what CCA and AotS do feel like. The latter takes a lot of time setting things in motion across the planet, to give the crisis a sense of absolute urgency.

>They're an outdated, naive idea from a bygone era
I like to think in terms of the writing itself: Fukuda and Morosawa couldn't think of any new motivation for the movie's villains, so they had to bring back the Destiny Plan and Requiem yet again.
While Orphee was openly hateful of Naturals in his speech, Durandal's offer of the Destiny Plan might've had some buy-in from some people tired of conflict. It's a good offer for some: let somebody else make the hard decisions for you. And does it really matter that it's an "outdated, bygone idea" if there are people out there that still believe in it? Dogmatic Communism still has its adherents decades after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

>>23351940
>>23352131
>Graham sacrificing himself against the threat that would go on to not only facilitate his resurrection but his acquirement of a Gundam hardly is too farcical to take seriously the way the team would have meant.
This bullshit fanservice shouldn't have happened in the first place. How hard is it to keep characters dead?

>>23352131
>Shura is the most arrogant of the bunch: "i'm the bestest soldier ever!"

Shura arguably deserved that arrogance, he was the one Foundation pilot that was actually very good regardless of the tech gap

>>23351940
Their mental powers don't include mind reading. They're Newtype powers redirected towards mental control over others.
>>23352131
It's an F91 rip off because Fukuda has zero original ideas.

>>23352131
>Token damage
The Strike Freedom had no weapons left by the time help arrived and the Akatsuki was basically out of the equation following its uno reverse stunt. Not a flawless victory.
>Graham sacrificing himself against the threat that would go on to not only facilitate his resurrection but his acquirement of a Gundam hardly is too farcical to take seriously the way the team would have meant
I beg to disagree. What did Graham ultimately lose in the end that he valued? You talk of lasting sacrifice, but Graham literally only gained.
>Shura is the most arrogant of the bunch
No doubt, but I was moreso referring to his willingness to engage his opponents 1v1 rather than dogpiling them.
> I don't feel like our protagonists are going through any lasting sacrifice in this battle
We're in agreement there. The disconnect seems to be what we took from that result. Orphee and co. might have lost horribly, but they lost horribly for a reason.
Foundation has no real care for the history it tries to weaponize, and as such remains fragile. Compass have actually lived through all that history (hence all the old flashbacks), and with that comes the wisdom and inner strength to crush them despite their advantages.

>Fukuda and Morosawa couldn't think of any new motivation for the movie's villains, so they had to bring back the Destiny Plan and Requiem yet again.
We actually were going to potentially get a very different movie, so I don't think that was necessarily it.
>While Orphee was openly hateful of Naturals in his speech, Durandal's offer of the Destiny Plan might've had some buy-in from some people tired of conflict
Durandal had ten times the charisma and had just wiped out LOGOS and still couldn't get anyone fully onboard with the more Natural-friendly version of the idea. What makes you think anyone's going with the shittier version proposed by the retard that nuked his own country?
>>23352481
Just say you didn't watch the movie

>>23352575
Meant for
>>23352548

>>23352575
>his willingness to engage his opponents 1v1 rather than dogpiling them.
Point, but the dogpiling doesn't work at all against capable opposition. Drone GINNs are easily taken care of; they're basically Musou enemies.

>I beg to disagree. What did Graham ultimately lose in the end that he valued? You talk of lasting sacrifice, but Graham literally only gained.
See >>23352139

>Foundation has no real care for the history it tries to weaponize, and as such remains fragile.
There's also no "Foundation" we see outside of Aura, the Black Knights and the ZAFT coup faction. Even Full Frontal had some semblance of popular support on places like Palau, while Foundation massacres civilians.

>and still couldn't get anyone fully onboard with the more Natural-friendly version of the idea.
This is an issue with the writing. Since we're tightly focused on our Orb-aligned protagonists, we're obviously going to miss anyone on Earth that might've their reasons to support Durandal's plan. Even the novel gives a small glimpse of this through Kuzzey.

>We actually were going to potentially get a very different movie, so I don't think that was necessarily it.
I don't believe anything Fukuda says. On some interviews, he says that they had some wild ideas for the movie, including Kira clones and the like. On Twitter, he claims that the whole plot comes straight from Morosawa's notes from 2005 or so. So which one is it?

>What makes you think anyone's going with the shittier version proposed by the retard that nuked his own country?
Orphee burned any conceivable buy-in that Durandal's plan might've had, and is not shy about his hatred of Naturals. He doesn't have "ending all conflict" in mind, just crown himself emperor of humankind.
And, to be "fair", the official story says that the nuke was launched from an Eurasian platform under their orders. Sure, Orb has intelligence that tells the full story, but it's a good "trutherism" angle that can further destabilize Eurasia.

>>23352616
but the dogpiling doesn't work at all against capable opposition.
The mobile suits for the Black Knights dogpiled all their opposition too.
>I don't believe anything Fukuda says. On some interviews, he says that they had some wild ideas for the movie, including Kira clones and the like. On Twitter, he claims that the whole plot comes straight from Morosawa's notes from 2005 or so.
The two concepts aren't necessarily opposed. He had some crazy ideas but ultimately deferred to the plot his wife wrote. Or, his wife wrote the plot but the exact ideas for the more disposable threats had space.
>Even Full Frontal
He was using Char's influence, led the least monstrous version of Neo Zeon, and actually gave a shit about the wellbeing of spacenoids. Of course he had popular support.
Foundation is openly drinking the Kool-Aid of the man that nearly wiped Orb off the map. Likewise, it makes sense if they don't find support outside of a few radicals.
>This is an issue with the writing. Since we're tightly focused on our Orb-aligned protagonists, we're obviously going to miss anyone on Earth that might've their reasons to support Durandal's plan
Eh. Having a face to the idea that people are on the fence regarding the Destiny Plan would be nice to see the intricacies of what's being provided in the eyes of the Earth, but we at least have the takewaway.
>But it's a good "trutherism" that can further destablize Eurasia
You think Compass could get any points clearing the air for them?

>>23352616
>And, to be "fair", the official story says that the nuke was launched from an Eurasian platform under their orders. Sure, Orb has intelligence that tells the full story, but it's a good "trutherism" angle that can further destabilize Eurasia.

Considering how badly Foundation burned any good will they might have had I don't think it will take much convincing to reveal that it was just part of Foundations plot

>>23352131
>that guy that got decapitated by the Aegis's shield
TOLLE WAS 16, HE LOVED TO BANG MIRIALLIA

>>23353126