This is Nemo. He is the poor man's version of GM. Something to it.

>>23335762 (OP)
>He is the poor man's version of GM.
>Better than contemporary GMs

>>23335762 (OP)
The Nemo fucks way harder than the GM ii

>>23335762 (OP)
>Something to it
huh?

This is Barzam town, shitstain.

>>23335762 (OP)
That's a zaku

>2nd gen mobile suit is a poor man's version of 1st gen mobile suit
Bruh.
Nemo was rejected by EFF because it was too expensive. It might be slightly worse than Marasai and Barzam, but it is better than GMs and early Jegans.
Honestly, it was only a slight upgrade away from being a top tier grunt.

>>23336099
Nemo was never rejected for being too expensive, the Nemo itself wasn't ever in the running for adoption by the EFF as a mainline unit. Gryps war was a chaotic time for the EF and by the time things settled down at the end of the first NZ war, GM III was already the EFF standard grunt but the EF still accepted Nemo into its forces as being equivalent to the GM II that was still in service, and techdata from the Nemo was being incorporated into the next grunt, the Jegan.

>>23336138
He's thinking of Gm Quel which got rejected over Hizack for being cheap. But i was gonna say that the Nemo is Basically a gm quel, only the AEUG forked up the cash for them.

>>23335781
Westerners are a minority now fuck home whitey

>>23336160
>fuck home whitey
huh?

>>23336160
American website

>>23336138
Some databooks mention the Federation created the GM III BECAUSE the Nemo was too expensive to mass produce, with its usage of gundarium and complex construction. The GM III still used some gundarium but it was mostly titanium composite and it shared parts with the GM II so the federation could reuse existing supply chains and retrofit GM IIs.

>Nemo into its forces as being equivalent to the GM II that was still in service
The Nemo is at least comparable to the GM III and objectively better in some ways. Not only does it have a full movable frame basically copied from the Mk-II, it has a better reactor than the GM III and full gundarium construction. The GM III only has movable frame in the arms, and uses reinforcing parts to make up for the older frame and actuators, like the knee pads and the bricks on the back of the ankles.

>>23336138
You are aware that GM III is just OYW GM with new engine and Mk-II derived equipment, right?
There were some newly made ones, also known as Nouvel GM III, but at the core they were OYW MS on life support, as EF was financially in a dire state after all the Titans money sinking and had to quickly replace all the Galbaldys, Hizacks, Marasais and Barzams.
>>23336154
Hizack never ran against Quel as Quel was mostly Titans exclusive suit (though they lent it to EFF as EFF suffered MS shortages in some areas).
Titans themselves at some point seeked to replace Quel as their main grunt and had to choose between Pale Rider DII and Hizack. You know from Zeta how did it go.

>>23336372
Quel was first titans only but then they got too costly for the EFF defense budget and the titans were really eating that up, so that was when Quel got phased out for Hizack as a new standard is MS would go.

GM II wishes he was Nemo

>>23336372
The GM III doesn't just have Mk-II derived equipment, it outright shares 30% of its parts with the Mk-II. Add in the modified parts and probably half it is derived from the Mk-II in some way in total. The nouvel GM III isn't a big change from the base GM III. It just has a slightly stronger reactor and additional parts, like the power pack on the skirt, and it's considered to be a truly mass produced Mk-II in terms of performance.

Question.

Which SHIELD was better?

The GM III shield or the Nemo shield?

It seems like the Nemo Shield is smaller, doesn't cover as large an area, and thinner. But the GM III shield is larger, thicker, and more robust?

Why the change? I found a lot of info about the suits but a surprising lack of info about the shields.

OP doesn't know about Nemo's critical hit rate.

>>23336503
Found some info on the Nemo shield for you.
>This is the unit's only dedicated weapon. Like the Gundam Mk-II and Gundam Prototype 1, it has a telescopic mechanism that takes into consideration handling during close-quarters combat. It is coated with anti-beam coating, and the protrusion on the top can be used as a striking weapon called the "Shield Acute", and there is a mount latch on the back that allows for the addition of additional equipment.

>>23335762 (OP)
the whole point of the Nemo is that it's basically just a GM II with a different external shell(to help hide AEUG's suppliers), hence the name "Nemo" which can be translated as No One or Nobody

supposedly a bunch of the surviving Nemos after the remains of AEUG folded back into the Federation military ended up getting converted into GM III's

>>23336099
>>23336138
>>23336231
nta but i remember the source for this
https://anaheimjournal.blogspot.com/2016/08/nouvel-gm-iii.html
>The GM (or Jim) was originally developed during the Old War period as a simplified, production version of the RX-78 Gundam. After the end of the Old War. The original model was produced with budget as a primary concern, but was later modernized with increased power output, an added linear seat system, armor upgrades, and improved sensors, ultimately resulting in the 'GM II'.
then, the important part
>However, at the outbreak of the Grypps conflict in U.C. 0087, they would be a completely outdated unit, and were suitable only as support units for the main forces of the Marasai for the Titans or the AEUG's Nemo, which replaced it in front line duty.
>However, to bring this obsolete machine back onto the front lines effectively, a modernization plan was created: the GM III plan. Though the GM II was essentially the result of only minor changes to the GM, the GM III would be a genuine overhaul and upgrade, greatly changing the characteristics of the GM III itself.
>This overhaul would consist of several major aspects: the ability to equip custom-designed missile weaponry at several points on the frame, armor upgrades, increased sensor range, and adding a backpack unit which had about 30% parts commonality with the Gundam Mk II's backpack, giving it increased mobility with the heavy equipment it now carried.
>This established the GM III as a fire support Mobile Suit and a new production line was added.
>Additionally, in a miscalculation by the AEUG, the Nemo proved to have poor cost performance, so the production line was closed after the end of the Grypps conflict, and changed over to a Nouvel GM III line. Still, in order to further decrease the cost of Nouvel GM III production, later models would utilize the Nemo's generator, turning them back into general-purpose Mobile Suits.
(1/2)

>>23336553
>This is the unit's only dedicated weapon.
?
What does this even mean?

>>23336562
to summarize
>GM II is a mig-21 or f-4 esque shitcan compared to the Nemo being an f-14 (expensive but also the shit)
>GM III punches the GM II up into a decent support machine, then implementing the Nemo generator makes it up to par (so GM III is like an f-18?)
>GM < GM II <<<<<<< Nemo = Nouvel GM III
(2/2)

>>23336477
>it outright shares 30% of its parts with the Mk-II.
That isn't a realistic figure, considering the lack of movable frame and that the most of them were literally the old OYW suits with an upgrade pack. Even things that look similar, like the backpack are said to be less powerful knock-offs.
Same goes for Nouvel, by the way, except it got an advantage of actually being fresh from the factories, rather than being refurbished old stock.
>and it's considered to be a truly mass produced Mk-II in terms of performance.
I swear, this shit is probably one of the most popular promotional slogans at the time, considering that Jeddah and Barzam also try to claim that (and more deserving of that, even if Mk-II is still better than both).
Hell the Nemo variant you can see in >>23336099 is closer to Mk-II than GM III.

>>23335762 (OP)
Pretty sure it's closer to a Zaku LARPing as a Jim.

>>23336553
Thank you.

But is it more durable or less durable than GM III shield?

I'm wondering why doesnt the Federation just keep the same shield if it's so good? Why create so many variants

>>23336566
Every other weapon the Nemo has is borrowed. GM II’s beam rifle, Rick Dias’s beam saber and clay bazooka.

>>23336577
Probably comparable. Both shields have anti beam coating. Trade off between more useful in a melee vs more coverage.

>>23336099
I wish the Nemo looked like this by default. The GM III felt more like a mass produced MK II than the Nemo since the latter looked so dopey.

>>23336575
Most tech you see in Zeta onwards is like triple interbred.

>>23336099
"better than early Jegan" is bullshit
>>23336138
it wasn't a realistic option for adoption BECAUSE it was too expensive. Anaheim closed the assembly lines when the Gryps War ended because it wasn't cost effective. GM III did more or less the same things for a smidge of the cost as a renovated unit. And even that was just a stopgap unit before the Jegan contract.

>>23336681
Just to clarify, so that means Anaheim rejected it before the EFF had a chance to reject it? I don't doubt the Feds would have rejected it regardless, but let's not equate an Anaheim business decision with a Federation business decision because all those Zeta prototypes prove that if Anaheim thought the Feds might want it, they're sure as hell going to try to sell it.

>>23336562
I'm pretty sure it should say 30% of the aircraft/fuselage. The line in Gundam Wars III specifically mentions 機体.

>>23336572
They have a movable frame for the arm. Not exactly the same type as the Barzam but from the same development line iirc. Master Archive mentions this. Also, the rest of the body is redesigned too. it's not just a simple dress up. The main advantage of the movable frame was that it allows for designs with just enough armor and better range of motion because the armor is an add-on, rather than a truly integral part of the structure. But even then, the Federation semi-monocoque frame that all the Gundam-based suits, like the GM use, are basically semi-movable frames. They can ALMOST function on their own, but the armor is needed for bearing high loads, like in combat, and helps to keep certain components in. The downside is that maintenance is harder, it's less modular and not as easy to add equipment, it's heavier by design, and it's less efficient. That doesn't mean it's always inferior in performance though. There are examples of other OYW upgraded MS that are just straight up better than some gryps era MS, like the Efreet Schneid in Unicorn, the Regelg in ZZ, and probably the Tristan (although the NT-1 had a partial movable frame). There are also TMA in Zeta that don't have movable frames but kick the Mk-II and Hyaku-Shiki's asses, like the Asshimar.

>>23336626
The Nemo being based on the Mk-II's movable frame is a retcon from databooks. The staff didn't originally intend it. It was just going to be a GM II upgrade. The ANT movies compresses the events so much that we see the Nemo right after the first major battle where Kamille's father dies in the movie, before they even have a chance to study the Mk-IIs, so Tomino didn't care about that lore.

Let's be honest, movable frame doesn't make a difference for average pilot. The most performative difference it can make is for high end or transforming models where every bit of extra mass and modularity matter to the machine working as intended, especially if cost is not really a limiting factor

On a lower end machine like the Barzam or Nemo, the movable frame doesn't seem to do a lot that's different for most grunt pilots. At that level of expected performance the only thing a movable frame will do is maybe make life easier for the mechanics when they have to repair and maintain the machine. The Barzam and Nemo series exist with movable frames because the Titans and Anaheim are still formally testing these technologies. If it was the Gundam MkII's job to see if the movable frame is viable on a full-body basis, then the Barzam and Nemo line are there to see if movable frame's efficiencies translate into a net gain when it comes to operational uptime (easier to repair and save time on maintenance?), logistics (is it better or worse for manufacturing and spare parts management?) and overall usability (tests done in controlled situations with a few machines doesn't net you answers for every possible situation so sometimes you need to deploy it en masse to see how the troops like or hate it in the field).

>>23336572
>and it's considered to be a truly mass produced Mk-II in terms of performance
> swear, this shit is probably one of the most popular promotional slogans at the time,
That's kinda of funny since the thing that made MK II standout was its moveable frame not it's performance.

>>23336477
>it outright shares 30% of its parts with the Mk-II.
>and adding a backpack unit which had about 30% parts commonality with the Gundam Mk II's backpack,

>>23336818
The biggest benefit of moveable frame for grunts is reduced weight, increased propellant, better ambac, easier repairs, and much easier to upgrade and modify. While Having lower thrust the Jegan seems much more agile than the GM series. Though that may or may not be related to the Jegan adopting what ever made zeon style suits easier to pilot that their EF counter parts.

>>23336900
>That's kinda of funny since the thing that made MK II standout was its moveable frame not it's performance.
The funny part is that Mk-II performance level would age like fine wine, as most of the time it wouldn't have to face hyper performant shit like Gaplants or Doven Wolves. And that's even without G-Defenser.

>>23335762 (OP)
I don't care what anyone says, the Nemo performed admirably and it's my favorite grunt unit

>>23336900
>>it outright shares 30% of its parts with the Mk-II.
>>and adding a backpack unit which had about 30% parts commonality with the Gundam Mk II's backpack,
You can see for yourself. From Gundam Wars III:
加えてバック・パック等機体の3割強をガンダムMk.IIと同設計の物に換装し

>>23337422
Yes

>>23336571
The way I always took it was more like, since you mentioned it, the Hornet family. Setting aside the F-5 lineage and the YF-17, the vanilla RGM-79 is essentially the F/A-18's A/B variants. Gundam doesn't really do the kinds of feature upgrades that real planes get for the most part, but the GM II is roughly analagous to the C/D version of the legacy bug. It's a block upgrade that standardises some new features and is objectively the better of the two, but it's still fundamentally the same airframe, or mobile suit.
The GM III is more analagous to the Superbug. It's nominally an evolution of the existing design but in practice it's a new system and superior in a way that represents a more generational leap in performance.
The Nemo can still be the Tomcat in this comparison, since the Super Hornet finally displacing it still fits

>>23336571
Personally, I like to think of Nemo as a GM Custom of its time.
All the variants it got show that it got quite some promise if someone bothered to make revisions based on field applications and breakneck speed Gryps time MS development advances.

>>23336503
>>23336553

The shield always seemed like a holdover from L-Gaim but flipped around so no one thought to show it at a melee weapon.

What is with all these OPs with broken English all over this site?

>>23336562
>>Additionally, in a miscalculation by the AEUG, the Nemo proved to have poor cost performance, so the production line was closed after the end of the Grypps conflict,

What does this even mean? Was the Nemo too expensive? Was the Nemo's performance too underwhelming? Or the secret 3rd option of Anaheim Electronics not wanting to the fund the AEUG for free anymore, and wanted to get back to business as usual and sell expensive suits to the Federation?

>>23340844
It means that the basic bitch Nemo in the configurations from the beginning of Zeta cost almost like ace tier MS and Federation was broke going into ZZ.
One of major reasons for the cost was usage of Gundarium armor, which is expensive for grunts.

>>23340924
>It means that the basic bitch Nemo in the configurations from the beginning of Zeta cost almost like ace tier MS

HOW???

It's like me saying "GMs were considered too cost inefficient, and in 0086 Balls were brought back into service for the Titans"

The words are English but the statement makes no sense.


>One of major reasons for the cost was usage of Gundarium armor,

But almost Zeon every single suit uses Gundarium. It's common after 0083. And Zeon is on a budget! Even the Titans use Gundarium in nearly all their suits. Barzams, Marasais, Byarlant, etc.

The whole point of Gundarium was that it strengthened the frame durability of the suit to allow for higher G maneuvers and top speed without cracking the frame.

How does going backwards suddenly make the Jegan more advanced than Nemo?

>>23340957
>But almost Zeon every single suit uses Gundarium. It's common after 0083. And Zeon is on a budget!
You mean Axis Zeon/first Neo Zeon and that was Haman throwing around resources and money. It only gone on budget later on after they blew their riches to do crazy shit like mass-producing Doven Wolf, a mobile suit regular pilots struggled to use to at least half of its potential.
Later on Char went for relatively cheap ass Geara Doga that used ceramic composite, same as Jegan.
>Even the Titans use Gundarium in nearly all their suits. Barzams, Marasais, Byarlant, etc.
Jamitov literally wanted to fuck up Earth economy so that everyone would migrate to space.

>>23341002
You are trying to phrase it like everyone else is the anomoly. But the only anomoly here is the Federation not using Gundarium in Jegans.

The whole point of Gundarium is thar Neo Zeon discovered a cost effective way of mass producing Gundarium. Then that method spread to Anaheim Electronics and AEUG. Then it got leaked to the Titans and pretty soon it spread everywhere.

>>23340815
Thirdies are online now.

>>23341029
Hriomoot needs to build a firewall to keep Indians and other thirdies out already. But I imagine Jeetbux from their traffic is too good to refuse

>>23340957
>But almost Zeon every single suit uses Gundarium
Axis is literally a mining asteroid. They don't even live on it, it's just a mining asteroid they slowly built facilities into. Luna Titanium was invented and made in 0G at Luna II, another (former) mining asteroid. Connect the dots.

>>23340844
Could fall into GM Custom/Quel category. It got sandwiched in between GM III(cheap surplus upgraded) and new cost effective designs such as the Barzam and Jegan. The Barzam apparently was only a bit more expensive than a GM II while being a much more capable MS with the latest technologies.

>>23341217
Then you are defeating your own argument. If it's so easy to make in 0G then the Federation shouldn't need to worry about cost.

>>23340844
Not sure if there's any information to support my thoughts, but here's the way I headcanon it.

The Nemo has a movable frame developed by Anahiem/AEUG personally, one that's cheap enough to allow for mass production but not cheap enough to produce it in large enough quantity to entirely replace the AEUG or Karaba's GMIIs. This was fine for the AEUG until the last stages of the Gryps War, by which point the Titans were deploying mobile armors and newer mass production units that the Nemo couldn't keep up with, so they decide to make a new unit with more firepower. But, because the Anaheim/AEUG developed movable frame was never entirely refined, trying to convert the Nemo into a more powerful unit became too difficult. So, rather than work around their own frame, they ditched it and the Nemo in favor of making an entirely new unit based on the movable frame developed by the Titans, which by then had been proven as mass production viable, for more powerful units, through the Barzam.

>>23341631
>But, because the Anaheim/AEUG developed movable frame was never entirely refined, trying to convert the Nemo into a more powerful unit became too difficult.
There's a bunch of counter-examples though.

>>23336138
>>23336231
>>23336372
How is the GM III better than Nemo when then the GM III doesn't have moveable frame? It's established early on that Moveable frame gives a huge agility advantage. Like when Char was easily dodging GM II's using a single Rick Dias.

And speaking of Ecole du Ciel, Gemeaux is sex.

>>23341717
The tech spec shit is never going to affect the way the shows are directed. Especially if Tomino is involved. If Zeta Gundam called for more suits than just the Mk-II surfing down the river to Jaburo, you can be sure movable frames wouldn’t factor into what’s in the scene.

>>23341717
Who says the GM III is just plain better? The Nemo's issue seems to be that it's too good for its role as a grunt - you're building these advanced machines that are nearly on par with your Zeta Gundam, and they're just for your grunt pilots? Whereas the GM III is quantity over quality.

>>23341717
Movable frame isn't inherently superior. It allows for lighter, more modular designs. That means using armor only in places where it's strictly needed or where it's optimal, resulting in lighter weight and better weight distribution. Now the motors don't have to work as hard and they can move faster, because there's less weight to throw around on a limb. The armor is also out of the way of the range of motion simply because there's less of it to get in the way. You can get away with a little less thrust on verniers too because of the lighter weight and better weight distribution.

Semi-monocoque needs full armoring because the armor provides part of the structural integrity. So it's heavier and the weight distribution isn't as good. The motors have to work harder and need higher voltage and higher torque to achieve the same results as the movable frame design. Now you need a stronger reactor. Or you can add space age super capacitors, like the GM III does with the knee pads (which also hold fuel tanks iirc) and the things other junk around the back of the ankle. And you need higher power thrusters, like the Mk-II inspired thrusters attached to the calves. The Nouvel GM III goes further, by adding those extra large energy packs on the skirts, inspired by the RX-78-2.

The NT-1 Alex, although it was retconned to have partial movable frame, in older sources achieved higher range of motion and flexibility with a layered armor design. So even without a full movable frame, it was able to achieve a high degree of freedom. The drawback was that it was more complex than other OYW suits. So the movable frame isn't strictly necessary to achieve a good design. Movable Frame was pivotable because it influenced pretty much all MS designs going forward and represented a paradigm shift in design philosophy, but it wasn't solely responsible for the big improvement in MS performance in the Gryps era.

>>23341717
>Like when Char was easily dodging GM II's using a single Rick Dias.
The Rick Dias is just a better suit. The GM II is barely better than the GMs, and just a little better than the original RX-78-2. And those guys were amateurs. Lila kicks ass in a glorified relic.

>>23341786
>The Nemo's issue seems to be that it's too good for its role as a grunt
Eh, that's going a bit too far. While it wouldn't take much to make it an ace worthy machine, the base Nemo got a grunt-tier performance.

>>23341836
The specs suggest that if we gave the nemo a small upgrade it would be on par or better than the hyaku shiki. Though that just tells what we already know of stats being nonsensical after thoughts.

>>23341836
Rosamia was able to get great performance out of it, but that's missing the point anyways. It's using all this high end tech when your grunt suits are supposed to be your most disposable.

>>23341862
>The specs suggest that if we gave the nemo a small upgrade it would be on par or better than the hyaku shiki.
That sounds about right and actually was done with Nemo High Maneuver.
Hyaku Shiki's biggest feature is beam-resistant coating anyway, not the raw performance.

>>23341033
>Hiroshimoot
>Doing anything that could impact his cashflow
lol lmao, dude has been doing anything and everything except making this site actually be less shit.

>>23341832
Char is also just a good pilot

>>23341292
Feddy requirements are not the same as the Zeeks. When the Feds adopt a new MS, it needs to be churned out by the thousands to arm all of their forces properly. Colony garrisons, the fleets docked at Luna II and Konpeito, Londo Bell, and then lastly the ground forces. This is why they rarely ever use gundarium for their grunts.

When the post-OYW Zeeks adopt a new MS, they're only ever building like 50 of each model at most. Haman's forces never totaled more than 200 to 300 MS at any given time. They're more concerned with being able to achieve their objectives in the short term rather than balancing the budget after the war, so they're more than willing to spend money on basic grunts that not only match the enemy's GMs (Gaza series) but a middle class of grunt that probably costs like 2 to 5 times as much for higher specs (Bawoo, Zaku III, Doven Wolf) and also fund newtype projects like Quin Mantha and MP Qubeleys

The exceptions to the Feds being spendthrifts are the AEUG, Titans, Londo Bell, New Desides, etc, which are smaller factions, some independent, some still part of the Feds. They have a mission that requires more than just the most basic bitch MS and they're in a special enough situation that they either have better budget than the average EFF unit so they get to spend money on better gear, or other ways to fund and supply themselves. In the case of the AEUG they're half bankrolled by Anaheim and the rest of their equipment comes from defecting EFF soldiers and raiding operations to capture units. The New Desides built their own custom high performance MS from their asteroid MS development shop. Titans held power in the EF government and military via Jamitov, who managed to pass rules like Titans having rank and priority over the regular forces. All of this ends up putting even more budgeting pressure on the regular forces, especially the ground and naval arm who get last dibs on anything.

>>23341715
If Nemo is good enough to become a base for sexy Newtype not-Gundam, it is good enough to me.

>>23342204
You don't think Zeon didn't make thousands of Zaku 2 machines? Their requirements are just as vast.

>>23345125
Why are you suddenly talking about OYW Zeon? The Zaku IIs were worse than the GMs by a lot. The only Zeon MS that wasn't was the gelgoog because of how late it was made.

>>23345125
There would be more of them left after OYW if that was the case.

>>23345154
Doesnt really seem like that , they go down pretty easily just like a zaku does.

>>23345198
GMs took A Baoa Qu, a fortified position, after losing half their fleet and their entire chain of command. They were canonically better just going by the show.

>>23345209
*because Zeon's chain of command broke down mid-battle, when Zeon was winning up to that point

>>23345238
They had Kycillia

>>23345245
Kycilia wasn't as effective a leader as Gihren and Gihren's death was a massive morale loss and even caused Delaz and others to retreat.
Just saying, Zeon was quite to blame for their own defeat

>>23345288
That's not the show though. Gihren's prized Doloses were lost right after she shot and killed Gihren. Right before he's shot he even says the Dolos have N field secure and after he's shot, it cuts away a Dolos blowing up then back to Kycillia and we learn the Dolos fleet is gone. Zeon was going to lose no matter what. The Federation was just better.

>>23345343
In video game terms:

Giren was giving everyone a buff with his aura. He was also a good commander.

Kycillia's buff wasn't as good as Giren's. She also sucked at making judgment calls and commands during battle. She's more of cunning political leader than a true battlefield commander. Her aura was weaker.

Zeon was willing to fight to the last man and willing tk fight tk the death with Giren in command. When Kycillia took command, a bunch of people said "Aw hell nah" and left. The remainders fought less hard.

Even if Zeon had lost, I have no doubt Giren probably could have escaped and regrouped with a ton of his forces. While the Federation would have been completely spent.

>>23345343
>That's not the show though.
It is word of god however, and the show suggests Gihren is confident in their chances (and he doesn't seem to be underestimating the EFSF - he compliments them just a bit before).

>>23345209
Okay but in practice a zaku machine gun will take down a GM pretty easily from what I remember. Like easy enough it creates the illusion the GM has no armor. I’m pretty sure the GM can one shot a zaku with its laser if it hits the right spot. So ultimately it’s just whoever gets hit first loses. I think the GM on paper is faster than the zaku but when you see them fight in the show it doesn’t seem to be to any noticeable degree. I think they just made a lot more GMs.

>>23345385
>Zeon was willing to fight to the last man and willing tk fight tk the death with Giren in command. When Kycillia took command, a bunch of people said "Aw hell nah" and left. The remainders fought less hard.
Half of this is made up and the other half is from 0083. Delaz left because he was a loyalist to Gihren, but there's little to no evidence Zeon just didn't fight hard when they were cornered with no way out. There was no magic trick. In Mobile Suit Gundam Zeon just loses because they're weaker despite having every strategic advantage. They were already starting to lose before Gihren even died. Kycillia sees the battle and while Gihren's jerking himself off she tells him the Federation is actually fighting well but he brushes her off. Gihren was high on his own farts and didn't even think the remnants of Revil's fleet would regroup around the White Base (which arrived late) and enter the fray and Zeon gets caught off guard by them even if it's only 8 ships or whatever. He was smart, but deluded. That's also why he thought it was a bright idea to make light of killing Degwin in front of Kycillia

>While the Federation would have been completely spent.
Zeon was more spent than the Federation was and the Federation was going in a straight line to Side 3 and Kycillia lost most of her fleet detachment that came from Granada. They were going to get fucked if they lost at A Baoa Qu.

>>23345398
>It is word of god however
That only matters when it's the same story. The novel isn't.

>Gihren is confident in their chances
This is Gihren moments after being confident his sister wouldn't shoot him in the back of the head.

>>23345451
That's Secret Rendezvous, which Tomino penned as a companion piece to the series proper. I'm pretty sure in the novel, Gihren dies at Side 3 when Kycilia shoots his dick off...
>This is Gihren moments after being confident his sister wouldn't shoot him in the back of the head.
That's different, he's an autist who only thinks in logical terms and can't even understand Kycilia caring enough about their father that she'd throw away Zeon's victory.

>>23345431
This largely depend on which sources you want to include.

The anime does hint that the Zabi family does possess some sort of newtype aura.

In the databooks, it's said that the Federation overestimated their own abilities in Operation Star One. They had spent too much resources against Solomon and taking ABQ. The databooks say the Revil was gambling on delivering a decisive hammer blow to Zeon before they could fully prepare their defenses. He wanted to push past Solomon, ABQ, and attack Zeon's home colonies. But the Federation was severely hurt by the battle of Solomon and even considered not attempting the Battle of ABQ. But Revil pushed forward.

The databooks further say that Zeon still had plenty of space forces scattered about. That the units we see at ABQ are all the units Giren could summon under his command before the Federation attacked. Some units were too far away or busy with other missions. Kycillia also left the majority of her fleet at Granada and did not bring them to the battle of ABQ. Plus Zeon still had homeguard fleet protecting Side 3.


If we include manga, there's a numerous scenes were Federation Admirals are having ptsd flashbacks or having discussions about how they were extremely lucky Zeon surrendered. For they truly had no strength left after the Battle of ABQ to launch another offer since. If Giren and Kycillia survived it is likely the Federation would have been in trouble since Zeon still had strength left and could rally around the Zabis and push the Federation back.

>>23345469
>he's an autist who only thinks in logical terms
Here's him learning that a "new" fleet showed up. It's actually just the White Base leading the remnants of the fleet he just hit with the Solar Ray. And then he immediately brushes this off. He may be smart, but again, completely deluded. He doesn't react to things properly and fails to grasp the gravity of a situation when he gets overconfident.

>That's Secret Rendezvous, which Tomino penned as a companion piece to the series proper
>companion piece
Hard to take that seriously when it was published 20 years later. It seems more like an attempt to retcon the show, at best. It's interesting as something that fills in holes that weren't there, like Lalah's backstory, but not so much when Tomino decides to rewrite stuff he clearly forgot about or disdained. I noticed the Dolos fleet being wiped out right after he died was cut out.

>>23345478
If we're going to include databooks then there's really no debate that the GM is head over heels better than the Zaku. Even the Federation's victory is usually attributed to the fact that the GMs were better, had better weapons, and had Amuro's learning computer data which made them punch even above their weight in paper specs.

There's also the fact that side stories keep adding new gundams and secret federation fleets, some which were on the verge of being completed had the war not ended and budgets dried up. There's an entire federation fleet that apparently just patrols the area between Granada and Side 6, according to the end of 0080. There was also the smaller autonomous fleet with the Thoroughbred and its Gundam that went to Granada with Bahkaro. The G-3 and Blanc Rival arrive too late to participate in the actual fighting at A Baoa Qu with yet another new fleet, which we see a glimpse of in A Baoa Qu: The Ride's animation. There are also sources, B-Club iirc, that say as much as half of the federation's MS survived the OYW, while zeon suits were relatively rare after the war. And then Unicorn made the end of the war seem like the Federation had the decisive upper hand and basically forced Zeon into accepting shitty terms of surrender and ransacked Side 3 and made everyone from Side 3 unemployable. The current idea seems to be that the Federation curbstomped Zeon and abused their power afterwards.

>>23345598
When did this become a discussion about GMs VS Zakus in performance?

I mean GMs are better but that's mostly because of beam weapons and Amuro's data. But the difference is not so vast that a Zaku can't win. It merely puts a Zaku 2 at a disadvantage. Give a Zaku 2 a heavy bazooka, a heathawk, and a competant pilot, and there's a good chance the Zaku could win or out up a solid fight.

I'd say a GM vs Rick Dom is a good comparison.


That being said, I don't disregard the Federation's ability to build ships, the main issue is they were out of manpower by the end of the war. Conquering the Earth Orbit and Solomon was their comfortable limit. Conquering ABQ was stretching the Federation to their breaking point. There's no way they had anything left in the tank to take Granada and the Side 3 Colonies.

>>23345125
>You don't think Zeon didn't make thousands of Zaku 2 machines?
did you lose sight of the conversation? we're talking about high cost machines using gundarium.

in order to make thousands of zakus, they made them out of basic bitch steel which was the worst armor. it made them heavy as fuck (~75 tons, heavier than the Sazabi) and they were really only designed to withstand light autocannon fire from feddy fighters and small ground units (30mm shells or smaller)

>>23335762 (OP)
Stronger than GMs

>>23345870
Its weird this is technically the safest combat in gundam, that pilot is completely untouched, without the risk of catastrophic beam weapon chain reactions blowing up reactors from random leg shots you get this combat that looks incredibly brutal but probably has way lower incidental casualties.

>>23345870
No YOU are missing the point.

The point is that after 0083, Gundarium becomes incredibly common. It's not some rare material used only on Gundams anymore like in the OYW.

And Gundarium isn't even "Luna-Titanium". Gundarium is the improved and cheaper metal that was created by Neo Zeon. Then leaked to Anaheim Electronics, AEUG, then the Titans, and eventually everyone had it.

You are trying to reverse the lore by trying to make Gundarium "rare" again. It's not. It never was. Using other metals in MS construction makes no sense after Zeta Gundam. All the production lines have been configured for Gundarium. No one uses Steel or Titanium anymore. That's old tech.

>>23335762 (OP)
Jobs to the Jesta, aka the special forces Jegan with 70% of the nu gundams performance

>>23347749
Cool, explain why Jegan and Geara Doga sticked with Titanium then.
And why in late UC no one used pure Gundarium anymore (at least until G-Saviour).

>>23347900
F91 suit use Gundarium. Wtf you talking about.

>>23347749
>>23347900
The Gryps war and first neo zeon war probably depleted everyone's supply of Gundarium. So they went with titanium ceramic to cost effectively armor their grunts after those wars. Miniature mobile suits all use some form of ceramic composite which might indicate that for some reason pure gundarium wasn't worth putting on them. Since only full sized ms are still armored with pure gundarium.

Are their any sources that go into detail of the benefits of super ceramic composite, High-Titanium, and neo-ceramic composite?

>>23347960
>Ceramic Composite

>>23347900
That's simple.

It was a way to keep Londo Bell in check. Didn't you read any of the lore books or manfa? The Jegan was originally designed specifically for Londo Bell use only. However the Federation was afraid of Londo Bell becoming like another Titans. So the compromise was to give Londo Bell tons of weaknesses. Londo Bell had tremendous authority to inspect, arrest, etc. But their manpower was tiny and their best suits were gimped. They could barely enforce their authority.

They were allowed to get new higher performance suits, but they had shit armor. The same reason why Londo Bell only had 5 or 6 ships maximum. The same reasons why the Federation government originally banned Londo Bell from owning any Gundams. The same reason why the Federation confiscated Amuro's Zeta Gundam and put it in secure storage. They didn't want Amuro to rebel.

In the worst case scenario if Londo Bell rebelled and tried to take over, at most the Federation could send a Fleet and crush them no problem. 6 Londo Bell ships were nothing against a regular Federation forces fleet with hundreds of ships and thousands of (older) mobile suits.

>>23347983
Ceramic is simply better for heat resistance than metals. As magic as Luna Titanium is, it's still titanium.

>>23335762 (OP)
>This is Nemo. He is the poor man's version of GM. Something to it.
Superior version of GM is what you meant to say

>>23347749
>The point is that after 0083
Then that shitter was wrong for even trying to answer the argument with OYW production of Zakus

>You are trying to reverse the lore by trying to make Gundarium "rare" again
Your entire argument is BTFO because the point was always COST, not rarity.

>>23348025
argument makes no sense when they still give londo bell other gundarium MS including more gundams and then the rest of the feds adopt ONLY the titanium armored MS

>>23348672
No it makes perfect sense. Almost all the Titans MS were Gundarium. The Federation doesn't want that to happen again. So Londo Bell is only allowed to have ONE Re-GZ which isn't even is as good as Zeta Gundam. They even say in some mangas that all requests to get any other MS from Federation storage were denied. Amuro couldn't get anything else.

>>23348712
>They even say in some mangas that all requests to get any other MS from Federation storage were denied. Amuro couldn't get anything else.
bet you can't even name one manga where that happens, meanwhile londo bell have the jeddah, regz, the delta plus, the rezels, the jestas, the nu gundam

this is the same kinda bullshit that claims amuro isn't allowed to have the zeta but fat fucking chance of anyone ever posting a source

>>23347566
If you really want to get nitpicky there's not even a reason that the Zaku should be falling over at the end. It's a mission kill on the MS for sure but it should still work. It's not like it was in the middle of some complex maneuver where sudden loss of the primary camera array would make sense to cause a loss of control.
The pilot's flopping, think the meeting with the EZ-8 made him realise he might be fighting for Zeon but he's not so keen to die for Zeon.

>>23348737
>londo bell have the jeddah, the delta plus, the rezels, the jestas,

All this happens AFTER Char's Counterattack. When the Federation realizes they made a mistake with underfunding Londo Bell. And that Londo Bell saved the Earth from Char's Neo Zeon. So they lifted the restrictions on Londo Bell and gave them a lot more funding.

>the nu gundam

The origins of Nu Gundam constantly change.

One source claims it was done using Bright's personal authority.

Another source claims the Federation only reluctantly allowed its development due to Neo Zeon returning.

Another source claims Amuro was allowed to make Nu Gundam if he kept it as a budget Gundam and used interchangeable parts with Jegans to keep the repair costs low.

Another source says Char called Nu Gundam trash and that he was disappointed with Amuro developing such a weak Gundam.

There's like 3 other origins too.

>>23345848
Man that pilot got unlucky.

>>23348773
He was out of the mission when the arms got shot off, unless he planned to try kicking the guntank to death, I'd flop too at that point just to make sure the EZ8 doesn't go for a third burst.

>>23348981
All of these are true. Bright used his political connections to fund it, and it's obviously a budget model that was rushed out. It's basically a super ReGZ with a psycommu and funnels. The specs are barely a match for the Jagd Doga

Nemos have dumb faces

>>23350060
you have a dumb face

>>23335762 (OP)
The what something to it?

To answer one guy asking for a source on how Amuro was denied suits. Gundam UC Testament has a chapter about the Delta Gundam and at the end, Astionage laments they couldn't get the Delta Plus for Amuro.

>>23354866
THANK YOU I finally have something to reference

>>23335762 (OP)
I liked him more when he was stealth Gelgoog.

>>23354982
>>23354866
I feel like this is a meme with Gundam writers at this point. I've seen multiple excuses now. Each Gundam writer comes up with funny excuses to not give Amuro a better suit for Char's Counterattack.

>We have 5 spare Zeta Gundams in storage. But it costs too much to ship it to space. So Amuro can't have it.

Or

>We built a new Psycho Gundam Mk 3. But it uses too much fuel, and Londo Bell doesn't have the budget to for the fuel tank. So we will keep it storage


Or

>We have several ZZ Gundams but Anaheim lost the cockpit modules. We forgot where we put them. So Amuro can't have use them without a cockpit

Each writer pushing the limits to see how far they can go with saying why Amuro can have it.

>>23355025
the Earth Federation politicians are terrified of Amuro, which is why he can't have a Gundam

>>23355025
The idea of Amuro being forced to use a Psyco Gundam III/MP/IV because the alternative is a Jegan is kinda hilarious to me, but in universe they actually all got stolen by Titans Remnants and the EFSF/AE hid the plans out of shame.

>>23355126
>Amuro being forced to use a Psyco Gundam III/MP/IV
>stolen by Titans Remnants
in some reality, we could have had this

behold my awful photoshop

>>23355172
GDoors is such a stupid idea, I love it

>>23355126
>>23355079
>>23355025
>>23354982
>All these new stories set right before CCA have the main characters running around with Gundams.

Great. Now Pre-CCA era is getting filled with Gundams. This makes Amuro not having a Gundam REALLY silly.

It's just like all these 0079 One Year War side stories where suddenly there are 50 secret Gundams running around. And these new Gundams are way better than Rx-78. So now White Base and Amuro aren't special anymore

>>23355419
the Moon Gundam gundams are all fake

>>23355419
>This makes Amuro not having a Gundam REALLY silly.
It's inline with how paranoid the Feds were about Amuro in Zeta.

>>23355602
But Bandai is trying to have their cake and eat it too.

First they make stories about Amuro being forced to use Re-GZ.

Then they retcon past anime and say "ACTUALLY Amuro had his own Custom Zeta Gundam during Zeta and ZZ. He was busy off-screen fighting the Titans and Neo Zeon so we never saw it. Except for Gundam Evolve and Side story mangas. "

This doesn't make any sense because why would the AEUG and Karaba allow Amuro to have his Zeta taken away? The AEUG/Karaba merged with the Federation and made Londo Bell. There's no way they would allow one of their heroes to have their main Gundam taken away and replaced by a Re-GZ.

Maybe if they said Amuro's Zeta Gundam was destroyed, THEN I could buy it. But all the side stories say it was taken away somehow and put in storage and forgotten.

It makes no sense!

>>23355614
Amuro probably totaled his Zeta at some point

>>23355614
>Look man, it kinda got jacked by this plucky Spacenoid and his/her friends and it wound up getting blown up in some awesome battle.
>Right in between it getting delivered to Amuro/it being taken away from Amuro
>You want to see that happen? Too bad, no

>>23356097
>>23355639
Given that Quattro was supposed to receive a Gundam MK-III with red anti beam coating and it got wrecked in a battle during transit, they probably would say that Amuro's intended/backup MS all got trashed by Zeon/Axis/Glemy/Titans remnants.

Hell, following AE's typical fuckery the data for the MK-III got given to the EFF NT labs and used for the MK-IV and MK-V, of which one was intended for Amuro but either mothballed or was the unit stolen and given to Axis. Axis then made the Doven Wolf, some of which were given to AE afterwards, which were turned into Silver Bullets, which were developed into the Nu Gundam prototype. So it got back to Amuro in the end.

>>23355435
How about Senitiel Gundams?

>>23336231
Which data book? Stop making shit up

>>23355079
Yet they budgeted money for Amuro to build Nu that he designs