>Mighty Strike Freedom can get mogged by unawakened Banshee Norn
>Psycho-Field can block the Disruptor
What did the EXVS2 developers mean by this?

psycho field is a reality warping ability, the disruptor is powerful but it is still a conventional weapon.

Is that OG Wing Gundam on the right?

>>23370488
Yes, it was fighting the Daribalde

>>23369872 (OP)
Bitch freedom can get mogged by every single FT gundam since they have NANOMACHINES.

>>23369872 (OP)
The Unicorn, Banshee and Phenex are bullshit machines first and foremost. MSF is strong and broken, but it's not a Miracle machine.

>>23370753
>FT gundam
Oh shit, I wonder if those will be next. The mobile version got Snow White a while ago

>>23370753
You don't even need FT.
God, WZ/Epyon, DX, 00 (any version) and AGE-FX would all dunk on MSF.

I dislike Fukudawank but I hate Unicornwank even more.

>>23369872 (OP)
The Disruptor's power is so poorly defined.

>>23370791
It's not actually Snow White, it's some weird variant referencing Snow White.

>>23370810
MSF murders all of those

>>23369872 (OP)
Do we have a video of that or just this image?

>strongest CE MS's strongest weapon jobs to the jobbest Unicorn unit in unawakened mode
heh

>>23372316
>UCwank magic
Unicorn is so fucking bad.

>>23372319
Maybe but it's still more powerful than MSF. Stay mad kiracuck

>>23372401
I guess that's one perk to UC being ruined by all the magic bullshit

>>23372316
>Arcade game has GASP. ARCADE GAME BALANCE.

Don't tell him that there's a boss version of base SF that destroys Banshee.

>>23372424
That's from the new opening animation, not gameplay.

>>23372430
So you can't even replicate it? That isn't really the "own" that you perceive it to be.

I'd expect this same OP to be frustrated because the MSF is somewhat a pure melee suit based on the preview.

>>23372424
That's a cinematic. People wouldn't care if it was a byproduct incidental balance.

>>23372435
So let me get this straight, you went from
>It doesn't matter if it's just gameplay
To
>It doesn't count if you can't do it in gameplay
In one post?

I mean, do we even know what kind of a weapon it is? I don't understand how a linear beam made a giant horizontal cut in the first place.

>>23372483
>focused beam that can disintegrate atoms while also suppressing nuclear fission
Basically a molecular scalpel.

>>23369872 (OP)
>What did the EXVS2 developers mean by this?
Give Capcom a break. Banshee literally has nothing else going for it except space magic. Conventionally it's a pretty weak Gundam. Just a beam magnum (6 shots) and 2 beam sabers.

>>23375675
This doesn't line up with the anime at all. The Disruptor was made before the Proud Defender pack.

>>23372483
It’s a “convergent heavy nucleon beam cannon”, with properties that it directly destroys atoms and suppresses nuclear fission. It is the “ultimate weapon that can’t be defended against.”
https://www.gundam-base.net/staffblog/55399.html

It’s not official, but the fan theory is that it fires charged hyperons, which are able to directly destroy atomic nuclei. So it doesn’t matter what material you’re hitting, they can have every beam defense stacked, no form of matter or energy should be able to block it.
Now, newtype magic on the other hand…

>>23375723
>This form of matter may exist in a stable form within the core of some neutron stars.
Even Newtype magic makes more sense.

>>23375725
We’re talking about a setting where they can make devices that generate large fields that just block free neutrons from doing anything.

>>23369872 (OP)
Not sure how Banshee blocks this considering Banshee can't even block a Colony Laser.

Meanwhile Mighty Strike Freedom cleaves through entire asteroids without issue.

>>23375999
Maybe CE asteroids are pussies

>>23375723
Why is it's ultimate weapon treated in such a minor way in the movie?

>>23376026
>Maybe CE asteroids are pussies
Okay anon. You made me chuckle. I'll give you credit there. Good one.

>>23375675
Remember that Seed Freedom staff said not to place too much credit on databooks. Seed Staff said they regularly have meetings where story elements change, background info changes, and Director Fukuda sometimes changes his mind.

>>23375999
Pretty sure the base 00 vaporized entire asteroids the size of small battleships. No one was going crazy about that.

>>23369872 (OP)
Who knows? Can the pilot react to how fast it is? He should have an ungodly reaction time, the disruptor is bullshit fast.

>>23376123
Because 00 is a super robot anime.

>>23375675
Basically Kira wins as long as he doesn't lose DESIRE

Where do blue beams rank on the CE energy scale?

>>23376559
High. They go straight through femboy armor

>>23376559
Weaker than beam sabers.

>>23375999
>Meanwhile Mighty Strike Freedom cleaves through entire asteroids without issue.

>needed a super special ultra cannon for that
Step aside, Smalltime.

>>23375675
>>23375723
Why is the Proud Defender pack's ultimate weapon a weapon that's literally part of the Strike Freedom Type II, if the data blurbs act like it being used with the Strike Freedom Type II was a make-shift decision and it was actually intended for the Rising Freedom, which doesn't have any way of using the Disruptor?
Seed tech makes so much more sense BEFORE you read into it.

>>23376682
I have no official basis for this but my gut says the disruptor was installed on SF before it got hijacked, but it was the power supply issue that had it not functional. Even after it shifted to being installed on the RF, it still needed more power, and that’s the purpose of the proud defender.

>>23375999
>Not sure how Banshee blocks this considering Banshee can't even block a Colony Laser.

Then what is that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrn88Vr1Oy4 ? I know he did it with unicorn's and his shields help, but he still did it.

>>23376688
It's still weird that Rising Freedom has no way to use the Disruptor, even if it used the pack.

>>23369872 (OP)
Here's the Japanese trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evJwjStvP7E

>>23376707
>Darilbalde in the spotlight instead of Aerial
Based?

>>23376682

Strike Freedom Type 2 is basically a Strike Freedom, with upgrades that were included in the Rising Freedom.

It makes some sense that if Rising Freedom, despite being a battery powered unit, had a bunch of upgrades ( which its model kit says it is state-of-the-art), it would make sense that the SF Type 2 does as well, considering it has the new cockpit design like the RF.

Though it doesn't list the disruptor, it does say that it can change out its equipment, meaning the version from the movie may not have had it installed at the time.

But also: Because bullshit writing.

>>23376682
It's possible the Proud Defender is like a battery or stabilizer in the way the 0 Raiser stabilized the GN drives allowing the 00 to make use of the twin drive system.

Something similar here where on its own the SFII can't use the weapon, but the proud defender adds some part which allows it to.

>>23376733
I think Rising Freedom is state-of-the-art for a "battery powered suit". It's the best they could design for a suit that uses a battery, but it's not the best they could overall. If these suits had a nuclear reactor then they could do better.

>>23376693
>Then what is that
Banshee struggling desperately to block just 30% of a Colony Laser.

Strike Freedom's disruptor is much stronger.

>>23376736
Fukuda said that PD has a 2nd nuclear reactor inside it to help power the disruptor. The Disruptor is too power hungry for just one nuclear reactor.

>>23376688
Well the databooks say Kira designed the disruptor himself, and the Proud Defender is required to use the disruptor. So it doesn't make sense for the Proud Defender to be made for Rising Freedom first.

>>23376776

it's not that the Disruptor needs more than a single nuclear engine. It just needs a dedicated one.

Thus, the Proud Defender has a Nuclear engine just for the Disruptor (and/or its other powers). Thus why Rising Freedom could certainly use it. Strike Freedom couldn't power the disruptor all by itself because its engine is running other systems. Systems that the Rising Freedom would be running off its battery.

>>23376770
> It's the best they could design for a suit that uses a battery, but it's not the best they could overall. If these suits had a nuclear reactor then they could do better.
I don't think battery power is an issue anymore. Nobody except the Gundams even bothers with Phase Shift anymore.
Also, unlike what we saw with the Strike, we don't ever see anyone bugging out after running out of juice.

>>23376682
It isn’t. The disruptor just has extreme power requirements, which Proud Defender lets it meet. Given that SF supports new back units now (lending a bit of ‘Strike’ to Strike Freedom) the plan was always to give it some new power source in that way. PD just fills the role.

>>23376688
No, there is no disruptor on Rising Freedom.

>>23376733
>>23376770
Do we know the RF is a battery-powered suit? I thought it was ambiguous.

>>23369872 (OP)
It means the age of Kirawank is finally over.

How do you cut atoms without causing nuclear fission?
I know N-Jammers have existed for decades, but even so...

>>23376896
I think it just completely deletes the atoms. Fission can’t even take place because the atoms are just gone.

>>23376899
But where do they go? If he uses it too much the entire world will be destroyed

>>23376870
According to it's specs it's battery powered and that's also pretty clear from how it's visualized in the film.

>>23376682
>if the data blurbs act like it being used with the Strike Freedom Type II was a make-shift decision and it was actually intended for the Rising Freedom, which doesn't have any way of using the Disruptor?

My personal opinion is that I think fans are misinterpreting the meaning. I think the switching of Proud Defender to Strike Freedom Type 2 was a last minute unplanned event. The heroes just didn't expect Strike Freedom to still be available and it was a pleasant surprise when Erica pulled SF and Destiny out of storage. But Strike Freedom Type 2 could always use Proud Defender.

Let's examine the facts. We know Kira was originally an Engineer. He loves designing, and constantly tweaks his mobile suits. Kira even helped design and customize Strike Freedom. He knows SF inside and out. Taking that into consideration, I think Strike Freedom was originally designed to work with Proud Defender. We know this since the databooks say Kira designed the disruptor himself and was working on upgrades for Strike Freedom.

Then the events of Freedom Zero happened. Strike Freedom was hijacked/destroyed/unavailable. So Kira was left with Proud Defender the inferior Rising Freedom. Kira is forced to make due and try to make these two items work together.

This is supported by the fact that Kira and entire Compass team are struggling to get Proud Defender to work with Rising Freedom. The darn thing won't even turn on when connected to Rising Freedom. Meanwhile, Proud Defender instantly connects with Strike Freedom and turns on in seconds. Proud Defender fits like a glove. Like it was made for Strike Freedom.

>>23376907
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spallation

>>23376908
>>23376813
>>23376770
>>23376733
>>23376682
There's just one problem. I don't know if this is mentioned in any books, but Director Fukuda told Japanese fans that Kira is unhappy with the performance of Rising Freedom. Kira desperately wants to improve Rising Freedom performance to help fulfill Lacus' dream. So Rising Freedom can't be state of the art. It's probably one or two levels below it.

What's the deal with Strike Freedom Type 2 overheating so much? Did anyone else notice that after Athrun piloted SF and returned it to Kira, the temperature meter was already over 50% overheated? How can SF Type 2 be overheated from just a small fight with Shura?

>>23376954
If it does have a fusion reactor installed, that could explain excessive heat generation.
Alternatively, its resting temperature may just be around 50%.

>>23376937
It can still be state of the art and too weak for Kira's purposes. It's like how Impulse was state of the art at the beginning of Destiny but still weaker than Freedom.

>>23376954
The heat could spike all the time, and we just never saw it before because it wasn't a problem in Destiny.

>>23376954
Inadequate cooling lead to potential overheating issues and poor performances.

>>23376985
Impulse wasn't state of the art though. Imoulse was a suit built to follow the Junius treaty.

>>23377021
So was the Destroy Gundam

>>23376937
>but Director Fukuda told Japanese fans that Kira is unhappy with the performance of Rising Freedom. Kira desperately wants to improve Rising Freedom performance to help fulfill Lacus' dream.
If you read between the lines, this is basically Fukuda saying that Strike Freedom is the bestest, most powerful MS ever and nothing can ever surpass it. That's why he had to give Kira a jobber pseud-Freedom for the first arc that gets obliterated.
Also, he's admitting that Kira is only fighting to make Lacus happy, not because he personally cares about the world's fate in and of itself.

>>23377031
>Also, he's admitting that Kira is only fighting to make Lacus happy
That's literally what Kira says in the movie

>>23377033
Yes, precisely. I'm just pointing out that Fukuda's words reinforces this point.

>>23377021
it was loaded with the newest tech, but new doesn't always mean highest performing

>>23377030
Destroy wasn't built to follow any treaty. Logos dropped any pretense of caring about it when they fired nukes on PLANT. Or you think that a continent-trampling behemoth with a bazillion beam guns is powered on batteries?

>>23377038
>Or you think that a continent-trampling behemoth with a bazillion beam guns is powered on batteries?
But... It is?

>>23376985
I want to point out that Rising Freedom was not built by Kira. It was built by Zaft using data from the original Freedom and Orb Murasames. Same thing with Immortal Justice. It was based on data from The original Justice and Orb Murasames.

>>23377044
>I want to point out that Rising Freedom was not built by Kira. It was built by Zaft using data from the original Freedom and Orb Murasames.
From what we know of SF and the like, I don't believe Kira wasn't involved in some capacity with the Rising's design.

>>23377021
Impulse had everything state of the art except nuclear power. Even then it was far more energy efficient than anything from the previous gen

>>23377043
Destroy's powerplant has never been confirmed, but why would a genocide weapon be treaty-compliant? What's the point?

>>23377044
It was built by Orb with some assistance from Zaft personnel which is why it has an STTS model number like the Murasame Kai's instead of a ZGMF one and why the Orb logo is on the OS screen

>>23377047
Well if Fukuda's words are to be believed, then Kira's involvement definitely wasn't to the same level as Strike Freedom. Otherwise why would Kira be so unhappy with it?

>>23377055
There is a source purported to confirm it's battery-powered, but I feel bad pointing to it if I don't have a scan.

>>23377057
Didn't the novels say that Agnes and that other guy were delivering Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice from the Plants? It was fresh from Zaft production lines.

>>23377061
Because even with Kira supervising it they had to have limitations, no reactor, had to be transformable for ease of missions etc. SF they basically had a blank check to make it as op as they wanted because they answered to no one when they were making it.

>>23377064
>Didn't the novels say that Agnes and that other guy were delivering Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice from the Plants? It was fresh from Zaft production lines.
They only say "Freedom" and "Justice". It's implied that the former is Strike Freedom, and that guy is responsible for the hijacking incident

>>23377061
>>23377073
It's just further evidence that Kira is carried by his overpowered mobile suits. The moment he started using an inferior mobile suit or a comparable mobile suit to the competition, he struggles.

>>23377109
>the moment he gets faced with overwhelming force in an ambush, he struggles
Not the own you think it is

>>23377109
Please don't tell me you're as retarded as you pretend to be.

>>23377119
>>23377122
Not the Anon you're replying, but there is a bit of a point there. If the story wanted to portray Kira as an actually capable pilot, then they should've given him a baseline grunt and have him show off with the bare minimum available, rather than being dependent on multilock beamspam on what still is a top of the line machine.

>>23369872 (OP)
If MSF's distruptor is as powerful as they claim it is, no way it should had been fired from such a small nozzle and not melt it's own head off from the sheer power of the disruptor.

As much as I love Kira, I really don't think it's a good idea to elevate him to the point that he can effortlessly defeat proper enemies while armed with just a blunt spoon just because "he's supposed to be good"

>>23377125
>there is a bit of a point there
There isn't. He fought off the Creuset team while he was still a novice and horribly outnumbered. He fought off cutting edge ZAFT suits, themselves comparable to the second stage Gundams, in a Strike Rouge. He beat Shinn (probably the best CE pilot) to the point the Destiny's reactor redlined. He beat Rey in the Legend to the point of doing so unscathed, shooting down his Dragoons with ease. He survived and performed great in an ambush, pic related, for about 20 minutes. He survived being attacked by the Karura and Shiva, plus three Ziggurats, until he exhausted everything he had and his own suit's reactor redlined.

>>23377152
That doesn't mean you need to downplay him and suggest he's some retard who can't pilot mobile suits.

>>23377163
>pic related
And I forgot to attach the pic. Hilarious

>>23377164
What kind of beam are those beam capes? Are they melee-type beams or range-type beams? If it's the former, the beam cape would damage the FT armor upon contact. If it's the latter, the beam cape with disperse the excess energy while absorbing some of it back with the FT armor so that the FT armor and battery doesnt go over capacity.

>>23377163
Sorry, I can't take anything you said with this fucking line
>Shinn (probably the best CE pilot)
Shinn had to be told how to defeat Freedom and even Agnes mocks his lack of skill. Shinn depends even more than Kira on overpowered MS to perform.

>>23377152
>effortlessly
There's the kicker. A pilot can be very good, but it should take effort in his actions, especially when he's outmatched. Otherwise, there's no stakes in it.
Nothing that makes you appreciate the character, which goes back to the other thread arguing about how power fantasy narou-kei protagonists are as bland as they come.

>>23377183
Sometimes a mobile suit pilot cant get it up and erect when they ain't piloting the latest state of the art overpowered mobile suit. It happens to every mobile suit pilot, no shame in that.

>>23377163
Sorry, I can't take anything you said in that post when you come up with this fucking line:
>Shinn (probably the best CE pilot)
Shinn had to be told by Rey precisely how to defeat Kira, and even Agnes mocks his lack of skill in Freedom. Shinn depends even more than Kira on overpowered MS to perform.
Athrun is the actually talented one of the bunch, given that he proved his salt while piloting a basic ZAKU.

>>23377183
>>23377197
I was basing that entirely off of Kira's own statement, that Shinn
>is strong
>is as strong as Kira or Athrun
>maybe even stronger

Sorry that it made you throw a fit.

>>23377202
Evidence on the ground proves otherwise.

>>23377197
>and even Agnes mocks his lack of skill in Freedom.
NTA but Agnes being a terrible judge of character especially when it comes to Shinn is a literal plot point. She never respected him at the Academy and decided he wasn't shit so she will never allow herself to admit that he is actually talented.
When she said Kira was in a different league than Shinn at the start of the movie it's because Kira easily dispatched a group of grunts in quick order
Meanwhile Shinn does the same thing to the Black Knights at the end. The difference in skill between Kira, Shinn and Athrun is mental state at the time not competence or talent

>>23377216
Your opinion, and that's fine.

>>23377109
He still one man armyed a whole platoon with ease and dropped a Destroy in far less time than with the original Freedom. He only had a problem against the Black Knights who were immune to most of his weapons and started out with a surprise attack that crippled his mobility.

>>23377074
Your theory doesn't work because Athrun never gave up control of Infinite Justice.

>Literal role of the character is to be a barely redeemable bitch who complains about Shinn constantly only to get disabled and put in the time out corner on the moon in the same way Shinn was as "apology"
>Taking her word seriously
The actual character you should be listening too when it comes to evaluating skill is Shura since he's the biggest meatheaded fightfag in the movie, but him being defeated in such a humiliating way takes credence away from even that

>>23377178
The beam capes are melee weapons but provide some small amount of protection. Bare minimum you can't touch it carelessly. The Black Knights turn the capes on and off as needed. It doesn't always stay on.

If you re-watch the movie, Shinn uses Destiny, but actively avoided targeting areas covered by the beam cape. Even changing the trajectory of a few attacks when the cape suddenly got in the way.

>>23377237
I think Agnes is downright moronic. Even the Black Knights respected Shinn as the legendary "Freedom Killer". Why does she keep the crap about Shinn being a bad pilot?
They should've rubbed on her face that she wouldn't be anything without her daddy greasing elbows in PLANT, but "heroes" don't do that kind of stuff.

>>23377074
It's not Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. It's specifically stated that ZAFT manufactured all the weapons used on Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice. The suits were sent to ZAFT to be equipped with ZAFT weapons. Then delivered to Orb. Also Athrun didn't let anyone else touch Infinite Justice, and refused to pilot Immortal Justice.

>>23377244
she's a fucking drama queen that shittalks things because she doesn't like it

she be like that bitch in high school who shits on one classmate for getting bad test scores and then will turn around and shit on another classmate for getting top marks

>>23377244
Shinn has fallen from grace in the movie. Minerva is destroyed. FAITH has been disbanded (or Shinn has been kicked out of Faith). Chairman Durandal was his only supporter, but he's dead. The rest of the military either doesn't care about Shinn, or hates actively him. Many in the military hated how the Minerva was given special status and AUTHORITY. Shinn has no supporters left in ZAFT.

>>23377251
Instead, he now has superiors and friends who actually care about him, and he actively is making the world a safer and better place like he always wanted
What a downgrade

>>23377251
>FAITH has been disbanded (or Shinn has been kicked out of Faith).
I say disbanded outright. It was Durandal's personal guard.

>Shinn has no supporters left in ZAFT.
Except for the most powerful individuals around, that is. He basically went from being Durandal's star kid to being the one of Kira and Lacus.

>>23377255
>superiors and friends who actually care about him
But Durandal and Rey really did care about him. The humiliating part is having to work with Athrun, a guy he has every reason in the world to detest.
See, this is what frustrates me about the fucking movie. Shinn has no will of his own and just goes along with whomever gives him a compliment. He should hate Kira for killing Stella, and especially Athrun for all the bullshit during the Minerva. But no, he meekly goes along with them, and Shinn is desperate to impress the commander.

>>23377259
Durandal didn't, Rey did but was also happily using him. Neither even bothered to check on the guy's mental health.
>The humiliating part is having to work with Athrun
Athrun isn't part of Compass, he's with Orb, on loan to Terminal. Or if you just mean when they work together later in the film, they have more pressing issues than personal beef.
>He should hate Kira for killing Stella
Retarded take. It isn't Kira's fault by any stretch that Stella died.
>especially Athrun for all the bullshit during the Minerva
He still doesn't get along with Athrun, but he never hated him, and vice versa. Why even would he?

>>23377265
>Athrun isn't part of Compass, he's with Orb, on loan to Terminal
Athrun isn't an object. He was never part of Orb's military. He isn't "on loan" to anyone.

>>23377259
>He should hate Kira for killing Stella
No. Shinn should hate Neo aka Mwu La Flaga. Neo was the one who put Stella in that Destroy Gundam. I'm honestly surprised we didn't get a scene of Shinn confronting Mwu.

>>23377274
Mhm

>>23377278
Why is it the fault of a guy who was literally brainwashed, and not Logos or Blue Cosmos who made her into a soldier who can't leave or else she dies?

>>23377280
Mwu should at least feel bad for what he did, even under brainwashing.

>>23377280
Logos brainwashed Mwu to be loyal to them, but logos didn't force Mwu to use Stella in Destroy Gundam. Bare minimum, if SOMEONE needs to be blamed for Stella's death then it's Neo. I think Neo holds more responsibility for Stella's death than Kira. Remember that Kira doesn't even know who Stella is. They never met.

>>23377285
How didn't they? Djibril ordered and threatened him into it. Mu didn't just decide "heheheh what if I put this half-dead girl into this thing and make her go kill people until her body gives out?"

As far as individual blame goes, I'd rank them Djibril > Shinn > Neo > anyone else > Kira. Djibril is the one who gave the orders, and Neo carried them out, but Shinn is the one that made it possible. He fucked up massively and directed his anger toward the Freedom instead.

>>23377285
If Mwu said no then Djbril would have ordered the other Phantom Pain guys to kill him and then rebrainwash Stella to see someone else as her father figure. Then this other person would put her in the Destroy. They were basically trapped and Mwu knew it.

>>23377289
1. Shinn doesn't know Djibril personally. He doesn't even know about Logo's relationship with Neo.

2. Shinn knows Neo. Plus we know Neo had access to plenty of other pilots for Destroy Gundam. He didn't need to use the half dead unreliable girl to pilot Destroy.

>>23377251
isn't Shinn with Orb again?

>>23370950
Katoki is playing a dangerous game with presenting the Wing IP as solely his own

>>23377244
Agnes had a crush on Shinn. Even the subtitles confirm it. She was fighting Lunamaria and Agnes final lines is about loving Shinn too .

>>23376813
>I don't think battery power is an issue anymore. Nobody except the Gundams even bothers with Phase Shift anymore.
>Also, unlike what we saw with the Strike, we don't ever see anyone bugging out after running out of juice.

Battery power is still an issue. In case you didn't notice, Impulse Gundam ran out of power. Even with an improved and upgraded battery it ran dry.

I don't understand something. What is the advantage of Mighty Strike Freedom's Katana over just using a beam saber? Does it do anything special?

>>23377475
Fukuda didn't care so why should you.

>>23377475
Looks cooler. At first I thought it was to counter the anti-beam shit that the Black Knights had going on, but normal beam sabers get through that just fine so I don't have a clue.

>>23377493
That's apparently the canon explanation but yeah you can just overpower that shit anyways.

>>23377475
I was waiting for it to use it as a lightning rod for the electrical currents the backpack uses, but it never happened.

I don't know why Seed fans on this board are OBSESSED with Seed Databooks, but don't pay attention to any of Director Fukuda or staff interviews.

Fukuda and staff have said across several interviews that:

>Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice are based on the original Freedom and Justice. Not Strike Freedom and Immortal Justice.

>Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice have some capabilities that exceed the original Freedom and Justice. But in other aspects they don't (such as not having nuclear reactors).

>Mighty Strike Freedom's lightning attack is lethal. Fukuda compared it to a gamma-ray lasers or microwave-based weapon (used by the Earth Federation in Seed Season 1). The lightning attack is a miniaturized version of those weapons and Fukuda called it a weapon of mass destruction.

>Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice were originally meant to have more of a mass produced look and share a lot more common parts between eachother. Fukuda wanted a more "standardized look" but Mecha Designer Kunio Okawara still made them too unique looking despite his requests.

>But Fukuda didn't mind and just rolled with it, and used the designs since Bandai gave him a firm deadline for the movie. Fukuda liked the designs anyway and thought they were cool looking. Fukuda said Okawara always likes to make mecha unique and cool looking. Even if Fukuda requests them to be more plain.

>Kunio Okawara jokingly denies this in another interview and said he followed Fukuda's requests.

>Okawara respectfully said he had a lot more freedom working on Seed Freedom compared to working with Tomino on his animes. Tomino provides a vague drawing of what he wants for a mobile suit. Whereas Fukuda is more open and makes most of his request verbally like "Add more vents here. Remove armor here" etc.

>Fukuda envisioned that Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice would be mass produced. Orb, Compass, and The Atlantic Federation would take over production of RF and IJ to make an elite force of pilots.

>>23377557
>Mighty Strike Freedom's lightning attack is lethal. Fukuda compared it to a gamma-ray lasers or microwave-based weapon (used by the Earth Federation in Seed Season 1). The lightning attack is a miniaturized version of those weapons and Fukuda called it a weapon of mass destruction.

so a zap and you'll start popping? a mini-cyclops? I thought it was just to disable things.

>>23377557
>Mighty Strike Freedom's lightning attack is lethal. Fukuda compared it to a gamma-ray lasers or microwave-based weapon (used by the Earth Federation in Seed Season 1). The lightning attack is a miniaturized version of those weapons and Fukuda called it a weapon of mass destruction.
This one is made up

>>23377657
It's possible to do both. Anything organic will go pop instantly, and anything that's sturdy enough to not immediately pop will be turned into a disabled husk. Resembling fried electronics.

>>23377557
>I don't know why Seed fans on this board are OBSESSED with Seed Databooks, but don't pay attention to any of Director Fukuda or staff interviews.
Seed fans are weird. They literally can get the word of god from Fukuda himself (he literally has Xwitter account), but Seed fans choose to cling to databooks instead. Very strange. Fukuda even said in one interview that he tells the databook writers what info can and can't put in the book. And Fukuda sometimes changes his mind even after a databook is already released which instantly makes the databook outdated. Like I said, seed fans are weird.

>>23377657
>I thought it was just to disable things.
Kira zapped those missiles. That wasn't disabling. That was destruction.

>>23377475
It's an anti-ship sword that's beam resistant. It isn't standard on the Proud Defender, it was just included for when it launched as an additional weapon for Kira.

>>23377557
Fukuda is not the only person that works on the Cosmic Era setting. He isn't the final word on the canon, Sunrise is. A page of a gunpla manual or guidebook is inherently reliable, while interviews usually get cited shittily as "in an interview" or "across several interviews" with no direct quote or statement of where the interview was published. This makes it so your interpretation becomes the only one anybody else can access.

Case in point, you say this:
>Mighty Strike Freedom's lightning attack is lethal. Fukuda compared it to a gamma-ray lasers or microwave-based weapon (used by the Earth Federation in Seed Season 1). The lightning attack is a miniaturized version of those weapons and Fukuda called it a weapon of mass destruction.
Is that what he said? Here's the actual text where he talks about it. He says that it was conceptualized as an EMP weapon, and he only considered making it a miniaturized version of a gamma ray laser or microwave weapon, before realizing it would be terrifying if they could miniaturize those, so it ended up the way it did instead. He also considered making it like the moonlight butterfly, but it ended up just becoming the moonlight butterfly, so that was no good.

>>23377823
Nope. This was pulled from a fan translation of his words from 2024. Posted on another forum.

>Fukuda: My first thought was using something like an EMP which is a very potent electromagnetic pulse.
>In the Seed universe, we do see weapons of mass destruction like gamma ray lasers and microwave based weapons. I decided to equip Kira's new machine with a weapon along those lines, and it ultimately took form as we see in the final version.
>Miniaturizing such a deadly device would be outrageously dangerous in real life, but in the movie we decided to go ahead with it anyway.

>>23377841
That is an odd translation. You’ll note that Kira/キラ isn’t even in the text. Here’s an alternative
>It was conceived as an EMP weapon.
>In the world of SEED, there are weapons of mass destruction like gamma ray lasers and microwaves, and I considered making it equipment that could use those things, but this is what we ended up with.
>If you think about it objectively, miniaturizing something like that would be pretty terrifying.
I’ve looked pretty hard, and can’t find anything in the Japanese sphere to suggest it ended up with those kinds of weapons.

>>23377871
Are you suggesting that people are just making shit up?

>>23377877
It’s just odd and I wonder if they’re looking at something completely different or if it’s just people playing telephone.

>>23377463
That line was about Shura bro

>>23377871
Um...EMPs don't cause things to explode.

>>23377795
>>23377557
>I don't know why Seed fans on this board are OBSESSED with Seed Databooks, but don't pay attention to any of Director Fukuda or staff interviews.
>They literally can get the word of god from Fukuda himself
Because Fukuda is well-known to make up bullshit. Do I have to bring this up again?
https://aeug.blogspot.com/2003/11/#106993390420757213

>>23377463
>>23377918
She doesn't love Shinn. Her whole thing is being desperate for attention and other people's affection.
The only reason why Agnes betrayed COMPASS is because she got rejected by Kira.

>>23378403
Neither did the defender’s lightning

>>23377109
You do not insult Kira on this board or else all of South East Asia will come after you

>>23378403
>Um...EMPs don't cause things to explode.
Exactly. The lightning caused all those missiles to explode. So what do you think happens when the lightning hit all those ships? The stored ammunition on board those ships probably exploded too. Some people on this board are so stupid and lack common sense.

>>23378444
>Neither did the defender’s lightning
So the missiles that Lacus targeted with lightning just randomly decided to explode on their own? Lmao. Come on. Who are you trying to fool?

>>23378413
>Because Fukuda is well-known to make up bullshit.
Fukuda is the CREATOR and DIRECTOR of Gundam Seed. If he makes up bullshit, then that's his Bandai given right. YOU as the fan have to sit there and eat it. As long as Bandai/Sunrise don't object, THEN Fukuda has the final say. So stop whining.

>>23378413

>Director Fukuda makes some directorial decisions during production.

>Explains those decisions to fans and his thoughts.

>REEEEEEEEEEE he's making bullshit up!!!

???

What is the problem here.

>>23378669
>makes some directorial decisions during production
No, he makes up shit on the spot, which get directly contradicted by other shit that happens five minutes later, and when they ask him about it, he can't give a coherent answer.

>>23378600
Same faggot.

>>23378691
Yeah, I'm not sure why they think him having a title precludes him from the demonstrated incompetence.

>>23378587
>The stored ammunition on board those ships probably exploded
Didn’t happen
>So the missiles that Lacus targeted with lightning just randomly decided to explode on their own
Explosives explode

>>23378716
>Explosives explode
Like others have said, EMPs don't cause things to explode. Which you claim Mighty Strike Freedom's lightning is.

>>23378742
>While EMPs (Electromagnetic Pulses) don't directly cause explosions, they can trigger secondary effects that might lead to explosions.

>>23378742
>When a nuclear weapon detonates at high altitude, the resulting EMP can affect a vast area. The intense electromagnetic pulse can induce voltage surges in missiles within its range, potentially causing them to explode prematurely or malfunction.

>>23378742
>EMPs don't cause things to explode
Neither did the defender’s lightning

Why doesn’t somebody just ask Fukuda?

>>23378796
They did. The anon is this thread doesn't believe the interview, and is using Google translate instead of actually getting professional Japanese translations done.

>>23378810
>instead of actually getting professional Japanese translations done.
You mean instead of finding somebody who will fuck with the translation to fit their narrative

>>23378758
>can
>might
>maybe

If hundreds of missiles are being fired at Freedom, then by your own logic the EMP would not detonate all of them simultaneously. Since you only said there's a chance of maybe it happening.

>>23378766
>nuclear weapon

Mighty Strike Freedom is not detonating an exploding nuclear weapon. You are claiming the lightning is just some harmless EMP that only disables. This is your claim. Stop goalpost moving.

>>23378820
>This is your claim
It's actually Fukuda's
See >>23377871

>>23377871
The problem with your theory is that Fukuda has said that the entire enemy fleet and anyone who saw Mighty Strike Freedom on the Battle of the Moon is now dead or destroyed. None of them survived. This was in response to a Japanese fan asking Fukuda if using Mighty Strike Freedom and the other nuclear powered suits violate the Treaty. Fukuda gave that answer.

>>23378835

Wait was this the same interview from last year where Fukuda basically said...

>"No one can report a Treaty violation if no one is alive to talk about it" while chuckling?

What an absolute madman. I love Fukuda.

>>23378831
No one cares about your mistranslated text. If you have the courage then post the original Japanese text so everyone can laugh at you.

>>23378835
>Fukuda has said that the entire enemy fleet [...] is now dead or destroyed
Wrong, he said that the fleet's electronics were disabled and that the enemies who actually saw MSF were killed

>>23378844
Didn't happen, the Junius Treaty wouldn't apply in the first place

>>23378858
He did post it, retard >>23377823

>>23378858
I don't speak rune, but it definitely looks like >>23377841 was complete bullshit.

>>23378418
Is Agnes a potential homewrecker? Granted Lacus is the original homewrecker but Agnes isn't giving Kira a state of the art mobile suit toy to win his affection.

>>23378899
>potential homewrecker
Overt homewrecker, she has a habit of stealing others' boyfriends, per Lunamaria.
>Lacus is the original homewrecker
... Who did she homewreck?

>>23378897
That machine translation is so bad. No wonder you are confused.

>>23378904
>Who did she homewreck?
Fllay X Kira

>>23377163
>That doesn't mean you need to downplay him and suggest he's some retard who can't pilot mobile suits.
He is, he fucking sucks in every suit that isn't a decade ahead of what he is fighting in tech level and in any suit that lacks the aimbot his suits from freedom onward had. Like he got fucking raped by basic bitch grunts when he had to downgrade to the perfect strike. He is always carried by his suits, it's like if amuro stayed early MSG amuro all the way into CCA.

>>23378923
But they broke up by then

>>23378897
Post the original Japanese text. I'll go ask several people who know Japanese to read it.

>>23377197
>Shinn had to be told by Rey precisely how to defeat Kira
The Freedom-Impulse battle is peak jobbing for Kira, but saying that Shinn owes the battle entirely to Rey is fucking horseshit.

>>23378928
Are you retarded?

>>23378941
How stupid can you be
See >>23378871

>>23378947
Basically it means Shinn doesn't bother to strategize for shit and he's usually fighting on I dunno, instinct or adrenaline or something, but at least he can execute when given a plan

>>23378951
Are you? Have you not watched the shows?

>>23377197
>>23378947
I don't mind Shinn losing to Kira. But it needed to be done differently.

It should have been done similarly to how the movie handled it.

1. Surprise ambush Kira in Freedom.

2. Bombard him with lots of missiles. Shinn in Force Impulse snipes and Destroys one of Freedom's wings while Kira is distracted.

3. Freedom crashes on ground and can't fly anymore. Thus Freedom can't evade easily or use full burst, and removes it's main advantage (speed).

4. Shinn lands in Sword Impulse and takes out Freedom in a ground sword battle where Kira is at a disadvantage.

>>23378941
Make sure you ask them to pick which of the two translations they think is more accurate then.
t. Guy who originally posted it and can read Japanese.

>>23378897
The machine translation doesn't even match your claims you fool.

>"In the world of "SEED," there are weapons of mass destruction such as gamma ray lasers and microwaves, and I was thinking of making it into equipment that could use those things, and in the end it turned out like that."

Learn to read next time you ESL. You don't belong here.

>>23378941
Don't waste your friend's valuable time. The other anon is ESL. He doesn't understand basic grammar rules.

>>23378972
>your claims
My claims are that >>23377841 was overtly lying, and that is true.

>>23378961
The plan basically amounted to using a loophole.
>>23378963
Yes, hence why I'm asking if you're retarded. He took one hit that the Strike literally couldn't block the whole fight. Your argument looks even worse if we consider that the original version had him just going out in the Aisle pack.
And you understand the Destiny is stronger than the SF, right?

>>23378928
Well that's not true. He actually kinda shat on them, given those grunts can perform on par with the second stage Gundams.

>>23378972
When asked, the first thing Fukuda says is that it was conceived of as an EMP weapon. He goes on to say he considered making it a WMD, but in the end, it ended up being what it is.

At absolute worst, a machine translation that has clear issues parsing the text translates it vaguely. The odd "posted on another forum" translation is leagues behind and clearly embellished.
>Don't waste your friend's valuable time.
I absolutely welcome other people reading the interview and offering their own interpretations. That's why I posted the text.

>>23379014
He’s still going for disables too

>>23379018
Yes. He also seems to be doing multi-lock shit in a suit with no multi-lock.
End got cut off, here's the part where he takes damage from his shield not being able to handle the beam it blocked.

>>23379014
>>23379023
You might get more mileage out of using the original aired version, that would inherently reduce the size a lot

>>23379027
Why not just lower the resolution of the output or change the bitrate?

>>23378947
>saying that Shinn owes the battle entirely to Rey is fucking horseshit.

It's true though. If it wasn't for Rey pointing out Kira's disable only tactics and suggesting a strategy on that level Shinn would have kept trying to fight him head on and getting creamed like he was doing in the early simulations.

>>23379014
>>23379023
>He actually kinda shat on them
No he didn't. He ambushed them and they dodged his missile barrage. In that first clip he destroyed the gun of the first one and disabled the last two. In that section clip he dodges shots, fires his weapons at 4 enemies, one is hit in the head, a zaku blocks, another zaku loses its gun or something and the gouf dodges. He then abandons his pack to protect the Eternal, disables one and throws his sword at the other leaving him with no weapons. He did pretty good but he didn't shit on anything. He lost all his weapons and his shield.

>>23378972
>I was thinking of making it into equipment that could use those things, and in the end it turned out like that.
>like that
I was on the fence but this sentence makes it clear. The lightning is lethal. I think other anon is just so biased because he's so used to Kira going for disabling that anon is not used to the idea of Kira killing enemies now.

>>23379018
>He’s still going for disables too
I don't think so.

In universe reason:
I think that's simply the best old Strike Gundam can do against newer suits.

Out of universe reason:
They are reusing footage and recycling animation

>>23379027
True.
>>23379039
I tampered with them for the first one, but it still cut a bit off to get below 4 MB. I think I just wasn't setting the bitrate low enough.

>>23379059
Just given how outnumbered he was, I think it was a pretty great showing. Far from getting 'fucking raped' in any case.

>>23379066
Bear in mind, that MTL struggled to parse 'S EED'. Seems like it doesn't like vertical text.

>>23377823
>>23378941
You anons better be fucking grateful, I went to the trouble of transcribing and translating that text line by line.

>当初考えていたのはEMP(電磁パルス)だったんです。
>「SEED』の世界の大量破壊兵器として、ガンマ線レーザーとかマイクロ波がありますけど、そういったものを使える装備にしようと考えていて、最終的にああなりました。
>そんなモノを小型化できるというのは冷静に考えたら相当ヤバいですよね。
>最初は“月光蝶〟的なものをやろうと思ったのですが、結果まんま“月光蝶〟になってこれはダメだなと(笑)。
>そこからさらに考えて、「モスラの鱗粉のようなものはアリなんじゃないか、鱗粉の中から雷撃を放ったり額からビームを撃ったりはどうだろう」 そういったイメージです。
>それで色々とデザインするにあたり世界観に合わせて調整して、現在の形におさまりました。

>What I originally had in mind was an EMP (electromagnetic pulse).
>In the world of SEED, there are weapons of mass destruction like gamma-ray lasers and microwaves. I was thinking of designing equipment that could use those kinds of weapons—and eventually, it turned into what we have now.
>When you think about it rationally, being able to miniaturize something like that is pretty insane, right?
>At first, I wanted to do something like the Moonlight Butterfly, but it ended up turning into exactly the Moonlight Butterfly—and I thought, "Yeah, this isn’t going to work" (laughs).
>So I kept thinking, and thought: “What if we used something like Mothra’s scales? What if it could shoot lightning from the scales or fire a beam from the forehead?” That was the kind of image I was going for.
>From there, we adjusted the design to fit the worldbuilding, and that’s how it ended up in its current form.

>>23379117
I appreciate the effort, anon.

>>23379117

>>23379117
>>23379066
>>23378972
>>23378897
>>23377823
This story reads like Fukuda may have started out with the idea of an weapon EMP weapon. But then it morphed into more of a weapon of mass descruction similar to microwaves (Cyclops), and then miniaturized it inside Proud Defender.

>>23379138
Yeah basically, it's a mishmash of EMP, WMD, Moonlight Butterfly and... Mothra.

>>23379117
Mystery anon comes in with the save. Thanks bro. Now we know for sure Fukuda made lethal lightning and it was based on Mothra.

What the fuck Fukuda you hack, you just turned Kira into a mass murderer. You've ruined him now. I must forsake him and find a new Messiah.

Okay I feel ripped off. Why was Perfect Strike Gundam VS Providence Gundam showed so much in the opening of the Seed Remaster but they never showed it in the anime? All we got was Perfect Strike in the Battle of Orb, but no Perfect Strike vs Providence Gundam. I was genuinely hyped but I just saw it was normal strike Gundam. Wtf. Why hype it up so much and not do it???

>>23379144
>>23379159
To be clear, nothing there suggests it's lethal. You're better off relying on that other statement about everybody who saw Mighty Strike Freedom being dead.

>>23379164
Is Mothra's lightning supposed to tickle you?

>>23379167
Well... basically yeah.

>>23379167
I mean people face tank nuclear explosions in setting, it's just a minor tickle at worse.

>>23377475
>I don't understand something. What is the advantage of Mighty Strike Freedom's Katana over just using a beam saber? Does it do anything special?
It was originally meant as an upgraded weapon for Akatsuki. Probably as a way to save power and deal with Antiship swords and beam shields that Destiny uses. But it was temporarily repurposed for Proud Defender. Especially since we saw how normal beam sabers struggle against Black Knight Antiship swords, and how powerful the BK AS swords were. The BK swords were cutting through the latest physical shields and shattering beam shields. So they needed a way to physically parry BK swords.

If you carefully re-watch the fights, you will notice that everytime a normal beam saber and Black Knight AS swords clash, the Gundam is almost always pushed backwards. Rising Freedom, Immoral Justice, and Strike Freedom were all pushed backwards during their saber clashes. Even the Z'Gok was pressured backwards.

>>23379319
Infinite Justice doesn't seem to have much trouble going against Shura with it's sabers

>>23379321
True. When they clashed it was about even. My personal theory is that Infinite Justice beam sabers are more powerful than SF, and tuned for close combat. Infinite Justice Type 2 doesn't have a lot of heavy beam weaponry. So more power from the nuclear reactor can be diverted to the sabers. Also other anons have pointed out that Red is the most powerful phase shift colour. So when when IJ physically slams into opponents, it doesn't lose or take damage.

>>23379324
What? PSA only influence the durability of the mobile suit. It have no influence on the physical striking power of a mobile suit's beam weapon.

>>23379011
>And you understand the Destiny is stronger than the SF, right?
LMAO you can't be serious
SHITnnfags actually think this

>>23379352
A phase shifted beam saber means the saber handle is more durable. It can withstand higher temperatures. And higher temperatures means it have a hotter/stronger beam.

RF and IJ had their phase shift beam sabers, and beam saber shields. Rising Freedom and Immortal Justice cut straight through enemy shields and forced back many grunt suits. Meanwhile the Astray and Gelgoogs were stuck in clashes with enemy grunts.

>>23379173
>>23379167
Should have had a micro-dragoon launcher as a reference to Mothra's stinger missiles in GMK

I have a hypothetical question. Reverse the roles during the ambush scene.

- Shinn in Immortal Justice VS Shura

- Kira in Rising Freedom VS the other Black Knights.

How well would they do?

Immortal Justice is better configured to fight in melee against Shura's close range unit. It has more beam sabers than Rising Freedom. Could Shinn beat Shura?

Rising Freedom can deal with the aerial long range attacks better. Could Kira hold out against the bombardment from all those Ginns and Drone missile units?

Thoughts?

>>23379354
How is the Strike Freedom stronger than the Destiny?

>>23379079
>I don't think so
Anon, Kira chucking his sword at a Zaku's head and going for disables with the anti ship sword in general are new animations.

>>23378964
Tactically, it's sound. That said, wouldn't it be better for Shinn to just grab an anti ship sword for the Force Impulse to better leverage its newfound superior mobility?

>>23379079
>the best he can do is specifically aim for their weapons and cameras instead of their large center masses
Actually cope retarded

>>23379558
I think there's a weight issue with doing that. The Force pack + the heavy anti-ship sword is too much weight. In the show, Shinn had to toss away the shield and rifle when he tried that.

>>23379560
Well...Mobile suits have targeting systems. But didn't Seed Season 1 tell us that mobile suits also have evasion systems programmed into the OS? Kira had to reprogram Strike Gundam so many times just to get it to properly dodge attacks on Earth and Space. It's highly possible that the Zakus are actively trying to evade while being shot at.

>>23379569
Stop typing

>>23379533
>How is the Strike Freedom stronger than the Destiny?
Lightning attack >>>>>>>>> Shadow Clones

>>23379580
Best part is the clones ain’t even solid. Just close your eyes haha they ain’t real

>>23379553
I think you are overlooking something here. Andy was piloting Gaia Gundam, and he was also struggling to hit the Zakus and Goufs. Andy killed one unit, but could only manage he to get glancing hits most of the time. Like shooting the head or arm. Several of the enemy even completely dodged Andy's attacks, and he would curse in his cockpit. Remember Gaia Gundam is much newer than Strike Gundam. So if Andy is struggling, then so was Kira in Strike Gundam.

>>23379505
The result would be the same

>>23375723
>So it doesn’t matter what material you’re hitting, they can have every beam defense stacked, no form of matter or energy should be able to block it.
So could it take out the Dark History Turn A?

>>23379533
It's literally stronger in every way than the Destiny.

>>23379801
Not in speed

>>23379533
>How is the Strike Freedom stronger than the Destiny?

Strike Freedom >>> Destiny
(but it would take a long while for SF to win because Destiny would run out of power)

Strike Freedom Type 2 <<< Destiny Spec 2

Mighty Strike Freedom >>> Destiny Spec 2

Mighty Strike Freedom === Zeus Destiny Gundam Spec

(Depends if MSF Nano particles can block nuclear powered armor piercing bunker buster lohengrin positron cartridges.)

>>23379877
Yes it is.

>>23379799
If it can hit it. If it’s straight up destroying atoms, there’s no possible way to block it outside of magic.

>>23379906
Nah, plamo manuals call Destiny the fastest MS of its era. Strike Freedom is the "strongest"

>>23379895
You forgot to put Destiny Spec 2 Final Battle version. It has premium bandai plamo recently

>>23379600
Or not because Kira is a much better pilot than Andy, as Andy himself admits often.

>>23379914
>quantizes in your path

>>23380151
That's just like overclocking your CPU
Although what I don't understand is the Orb bitch said she didn't change anything other than their cockpits so was this just something Destiny could always do?

Lets be honest, in a straight fight with everyone in there own ideal MS's, the Infinite Justice type 2 wins because Athrun is a better pilot than both. The hax weapons mean nothing if your opponent is smart enough to counter. A machine is only as good as its pilot

>>23380351
I think a strong argument can be made for any of the three being the strongest.

Athrun is one of the greatest ZAFT aces in history, who has great conventional skill and can also be underhanded, but his willpower can be shaky to where it seems harder for him to enter SEED mode than the others. A hesitant Athrun is only on par with your typical ZAFT ace.

>>23379799
In SRW terms, you have to use spirit commands to tank it, it ignores defensive abilities and sets your defense to 0.

>>23380351
I haven't seen seed. What the fuck was shinn thinking here?

>>23380469
He's completely lost his mind there. He's hyperventilating and hallucinating and screaming his head off in the cockpit, and nearly killed his own girlfriend.

Is Mwu a weak newtype? Even years after Rau's death, Mwu's piloting skills didnt improve at all and is no where near Rau's level. Never mind the fact that Rau is piloting with a Coordinator OS while Mwu is piloting with a waterdown Natural OS.

>>23380215
Nope. Strike Gundam is much weaker than Gaia Gundam. Strike Gundam is much weaker than even a Gouf. Kira is pilot the weakest mobile suit on the entire battlefield.

>>23380631
Not necessarily true, he holds his own against the Impulse in a Windam.

>>23380648
NTA but you're hilariously retarded

>>23380679
>NTA
No one believes you.

>>23380648
Yeah and Kira does much better than the more powerful Gaia, in the weaker Strike and doesn't struggle as much as Andy because he's the best pilot there.

>>23380724
I don't much care what a retard like you believes

>>23379580
No wonder you thought I was being a Shinnfag. I was talking about the ogs.
>>23379567
I get what you're saying, but at the same time, I'm pretty sure a weakened freedom should still be more mobile than a healthy Sword Impulse. Kira was too slick for Shinn even using the Force Silhouette, so sticking with the Sword Impulse that has to commit to all its attacks seems like a waste of the disadvantage you've put the Freedom in unless you're counting on the Phase Shift to carry. I can imagine using Silhouette spam is still an option, although I imagine it would be harder in the snow. That being said, I wonder if there couldn't be a plan to try and take down the Freedom by burying it and leaving the Minerva to finish it off.

>>23380731
Is the Gaia more powerful? The Ootori pack is better than the Gaia. Way more weapons, it should be way more maneuverable considering Gaia's thing is the land quadruped mode that is useless in space. Strike Ootori by all means should be better than Gaia in everyway.

>>23380750
>Is the Gaia more powerful?
Yes. By a long shot. The second stage Gundams are considered on par with or superior to Freedom and Justice, minus switching back to batteries. Strike Rouge is several orders of outdated, and Ootori closes the gap significantly, but not totally. And in the original airing, it was using the Aile Striker regardless.

>>23380762
I've only read that the rifles and sabers are on par with Freedom and Justice's. Not the units themselves. We see Freedom embarrass the other units multiple times.

>>23380768
I've got you covered. First sentence.
>The Second Stage series, which inherited the basic performance of the Freedom and Justice, surpasses mass-produced units like the GINN and ZAKU Warrior in terms of fundamental structure.

>We see Freedom embarrass the other units multiple times.
Because Kira is leagues above them.

>>23380783
NTA but how the fuck do you find this kind of shit so fast?

>>23380791
Look on Japanese sites for info with citations, follow the citations, pray.

>>23380731
>Yeah and Kira does much better than the more powerful Gaia, in the weaker Strike and doesn't struggle as much as Andy because he's the best pilot there.
How does Kira do better? Strike lost everything. The pack was destroyed and Strike had no limbs left. All Kira did was jump into battle with a surprise attack, unload all his weapons, and then got shot at from all sides until Strike was nearly destroyed.

Meanwhile Gaia was still intact and still fighting.

>>23380803
>Strike lost everything
Kira lent Andrew his rifle since he lost his already. Then he lost the pack because a Zaku from across the map was attempting to take out the Eternal and he couldn't intercept in time otherwise.
>then got shot at from all sides until Strike was nearly destroyed
He took one hit throughout the entire battle while he was actively trying to fight, and even then, the attack was blocked but broke through the Strike's defenses. >>23380794

>>23380749
The thing is that original Freedom was built for long range combat. Not melee fights. Melee is supposed to be a last resort and it only has 2 beam sabers. And if you look at Kira's history, the pack he least enjoyed using was Sword Strike.

In addition, Kira never actually killed any of the Extended pilots. Athrun killed one, and Yzak and Dearkka killed the others. Kira actually has no solo kills against the Extended.


>Kira was too slick for Shinn even using the Force Silhouette
If you rewatch the Shinn VS Kira battle carefully, once Freedom loses a wing, Force Impulse is actually faster then Freedom Gundam. The original Freedom has a lot of thrusters in the wings. So the loss of a wing is a huge blow.

Director Fukuda often talks about how he dislikes using brand new more powerful suits suddenly appearing to defeat enemies. He prefers incremental upgrades to older suits, and for pilots to use a bit strategy in battles. Which I gotta give Shinn credit for.

The behind the scenes interviews for Seed Freedom movie, Fukuda talks about how he would defeat Compass and the Archangel. He says fighting them head-on would never work. But if you can get close, surprise them and then disable some of their major weapons and cripple them, then that's how he would do it. That's why I think how Rising Freedom getting destroyed is how I imagine the original Freedom should have been defeated. Again, just my personal Opinion though.

>>23380803
Waltfeld does well at first, taking out two Zakus and a Gouf, but he has his beam rifle destroyed and is surrounded by the time Kira arrives.

>>23380819
I agree that melee is one of Kira's weaker points, but Kira's weakest area is still more than most. Even with your plan, Kira would technically still have Shinn outgunned with a beam rifle, two railguns, and one shoulder cannon left.
>Kira actually has no solo kills against the extended
He's been puking them regardless, though.
>If you rewatch the Shinn VS Kira battle carefully, once Freedom loses a wing, Force Impulse is actually faster then Freedom Gundam
Well, I'll be damned. You have a point. The difference between how Kira was handling Shinn's ranged pressure before and after is definitely worth noting. I guess my question is whether the loss in mobility was enough to push the Sword Impulse over the Freedom. I think it all depends on how quickly Shinn can realistically end the fight before Kira decides to lock in for the encounter.
I agree with your idea for the most part. Just offering my two cents.

>>23379319
>shattering beam shields.
A physical weapon with a beam edge would always bypass the beam shield. It's been like that since Destiny. Was like that even in Astray manga.

>>23380883
Rising Freedom and Strike Freedom block melee attacks from physical weapons with a beam edge in the movie. But Rising Freedom struggles A LOT more. The beam shield flickers after one or two hits and then shatters. Strike Freedom's beam shield flickers a lot (but doesn't break) like it's on the verge of breaking, and Strike Freedom's entire body is thrown backwards.

I think it's clear that beam shields should be treated as more of a "last resort" shield. Something you shouldn't rely on primarily. Physical shields at more durable and don't use power.

>>23380803
Kira takes out 8 to Waltfeld's 4.

>>23380865
Once Freedom Gundam is grounded and can't fly, then it's no better than Gaia Gundam. In fact, I'd argue that Gaia Gundam is better in many ways when it comes to melee and ground warfare over Freedom Gundam. And Sword Impulse handled Gaia Gundam just fine. Just replace Gaia Gundam with Freedom Gundam in this image. Those dual swords are no joke and carry huge weight.

>>23380909
But Kira only accomplished that by sacrificing his suit, and going for mutual destruction. Kira would sacrifice an arm just to destroy a Zaku head. I'm honestly not sure what Kira was thinking.

>>23380819
Freedom can use it's sabers combined with it's speed for high speed melee fly by hits which is something Kira uses extensively. It doesn't really need a fancy melee weapon.

>>23380914
Kira lost the pack because he had no choice, but otherwise losing the arm was just because the Zaku's cannon was more powerful than the Strike Rouge's shield.

>>23380910
>Once Freedom Gundam is grounded and can't fly, then it's no better than Gaia Gundam
I see what you mean, but the Freedom still has options, even if they're not great at this point without the usual speed or flight to lean on. If Shinn can keep up the pressure or even take him down before he readjusts his mindset for the battle, then it doesn't matter. If he takes too long or Kira holds on long enough to realize he really will have to fight his way out of this one, he still has his railguns and shoulder cannon to lean on (didn't bother mentioning the rifle since there's no way that thing's surviving the initial onslaught).
>Those dual swords are no joke and carry huge weight
Damn straight. Honestly, using Sword Impulse for the fight might be worth it just to get some more dualbladed action alone.

>>23380865
>>Kira actually has no solo kills against the extended
>He's been puking them regardless, though.

Well that's only Seed Destiny Extended. I can't remember if it was posted here, but someone shared a databook entry that said the next generation of Extended from Seed Destiny were different. Their combat potential was lowered in exchange for greater mental and physical stability. It makes them easier to control. They don't need the medicine anymore. Just those rejuvenation beds.

everyone knows the gundam power scale:
turn a/x
gn drive memery
ibo
massive power gap
psychoframe
v2
everything else

Im 75% sure that if Gundam Seed Destiny's production wasn't so messy and rushed, then the animation would have made so many things clear. We wouldn't be having arguments are phase shift, beam saber clashing, beam shields, what weapons beat what armor, etc. It's such a shame Sunrise staff dropped the ball so hard with Seed Destiny. But at least they made up for it with Seed Freedom.

>>23381344
I still don't understand how Arondight managed to get cut in half in the final battle

>>23380910
>Those dual swords are no joke and carry huge weight.
If they carry such weight why was Freedom able to catch one

>>23381453
>I still don't understand how Arondight managed to get cut in half in the final battle

It's not like Anti-ship swords are invincible. In Impulse, Shinn broke them twice before. They are a tool like anything else, and tools break when abused hard enough. Shinn was swinging that Arondight sword pretty hard for a long time.

If you rewatch the fight, Destiny and Infinite Justice clash over and over again in the background for a while. Sparks were flying. Lunamaria was watching them. My guess is during all those clashes, Athrun was repeatedly hitting the same spot on the Destiny AS sword over and over until it finally broke in that one scene. Shinn just didn't notice what Athrun was doing and that's why Shinn was shocked.

Similar to how a shield will eventually lose its anti-beam coating when hit long enough and then breaks apart.

>>23381344
Anon, there are still retards sperging about clashing beam sabers in SEED Freedom. And who's talking about phase shift?

>>23381494
Ugh...I remember that people would argue for years about phase shift. They would argue if shields can have phase shift. They would argue if weapons can have phase shift. They would argue about backpacks having phase shift. Pretty much everything was up for debate.

>>23375999
It didn't block it
The op cuts away before banshee barrier fails and Riddhe gets mugged by Kira

>>23381344
For the most part, the show is clear, people just haven’t seen it in a while

>>23381539
No it isn't. That's why you have people making stuff up like this
>My guess is during all those clashes, Athrun was repeatedly hitting the same spot on the Destiny AS sword over and over until it finally broke in that one scene

>>23381656
How does that contradict what I said? The show is clear, Arondight isn't impervious to beams.

Everything you list in >>23381344 is perfectly clear. Any confusion is unironically from not paying attention.

>>23381671
>Everything you list in >>23381344
Not my post. Nothing in Seed Destiny suggests Athrun was hitting the same spot on Shinn's sword over and over again. The sword just broke because Shinn was meant to lose and people even used to argue that in his rage, Shinn cut it off or Athrun somehow hit the back of the sword.

>>23381684
>Not my post.
Not my problem.
He hit part of the sword that didn't have a beam on it. It cut through. End of story. An anon not remembering 100% clearly does not make the show unclear.

>>23381700
If he just cut the tip off, the beam shouldn't have stopped since the emitter below is undamaged.

>>23381700
>He hit part of the sword that didn't have a beam on it. It cut through. End of story.
Yeah...but how.Unless Shinn swung metal first there's no way that would ever happen without leaving the Justice totally open to just getting cut through first

>>23381701
You have no basis for that, and he cut about half the length off.

>>23381704
>Yeah...but how.
I just said that. By hitting part of it that didn't have a beam on it.
>there's no way that would ever happen
It literally did.

>>23381713
Something being shown to have occurred doesn't make it clear.
Meyrin and Athrun survive a beam saber being shoved inches away from where their cockpit was, they survive but it's never clear how they did

>>23381715
>Something being shown to have occurred doesn't make it clear.
We know how it could happen, we know it happened. Saying it's impossible is wrong.
>Meyrin and Athrun survive a beam saber being shoved inches away from where their cockpit was
No they didn't. The chest got pierced well above the cockpit.
>they survive but it's never clear how they did
They get rescued as soon as Destiny and Legend leave. We see this.

This is why I suggest most confusion is just from people not having seen the show recently. Over time, you forget details, and your brain assumes those details never existed.

>>23381737
This is way closer to the cockpit than whatever shit caused Yzak's scar

>>23381749
No

>>23381713
>You have no basis for that, and he cut about half the length off.
He didn't cut half the length off. We see both notches for the emitter are still there. The only parts of the sword that have no beam are the tip and the back. If he hit the back then Shinn was swinging the sword backwards but we know that's not true because we see the position of the sword after Athrun's swing. If he hit the tip, then the emitter wouldn't be damaged. We see in your screenshot that the notch for where the emitter begins is fine. What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. IYou're full of shit just like the show you're defending. You're aren't even trying to argue logic, you're just saying because it happened it's okay no matter what.

>>23381797
>He didn't cut half the length off.
Yes he did. We see the red mark is on the piece that was cut off, plus a bit extra, which is about half, just short of the folding point. See >>23381713
>The only parts of the sword that have no beam are the tip and the back.
And the sides. Given that Shinn has the edge oriented to his lower right, and Athrun cuts it with a swing to his upper left, he hit the side dead on.

>IYou're full of shit just like the show you're defending.
Quit with the hysterics.

>>23381812
>Yes he did.
If that was the case he wouldn't have been able to cut it since the beam edge would block it. Especially since Athrun is cutting upwards and we see the energy from the direction of his sword cutting towards the beam blade.
>And the sides. Given that Shinn has the edge oriented to his lower right, and Athrun cuts it with a swing to his upper left, he hit the side dead on.
Athrun cuts towards the beam blade. His slash is in the same direction the sword is oriented.

>>23381822
>If that was the case he wouldn't have been able to cut it since the beam edge would block it.
Except that isn't how the beam weapons work in SEED Destiny. A 'cutting' beam can't block other cutting beams.
>His slash is in the same direction the sword is oriented.
See filename.

>>23381857
>Except that isn't how the beam weapons work in SEED Destiny. A 'cutting' beam can't block other cutting beams.
You're definitely wrong about this.
>See filename.
Yeah, you're wrong. Thanks for posting a scene that shows what I said. The beam path is going the same way the sword is facing.

>>23381857
>A 'cutting' beam can't block other cutting beams.
nto this shit again

>>23381864
>You're definitely wrong about this.
And now we're reduced to "nuh uh". Nice.
Athrun always uses his shield to block Arondight. Shinn always uses his shield to block other sabers. This is the case from the start of the show in fact, with Gaia using its shield to block an Excalibur.
>The beam path is going the same way the sword is facing.
Do you lack spatial reasoning skills? If Justice swings up to its left, then that's up to Destiny's right. Or do you think that single transitional frame you screencapped meant anything?

>>23381876
But that's correct. It's to give shields more of a purpose in battle than to just be effortlessly destroyed the instant a beam saber comes out.

>>23381876
We're never escaping this bullshit, are we?

>>23381890
>And now we're reduced to "nuh uh". Nice.
Stupid. You've been making this argument for years. Every time you do people post Legend and Strike Freedom clashing swords.
>Do you lack spatial reasoning skills? If Justice swings up to its left, then that's up to Destiny's right. Or do you think that single transitional frame you screencapped meant anything?
Do you lack the ability to understand what the beam line was meant to represent? I don't care what direction he swung from. I care what the result was and the result was a slash going from bottom left to upper right. They put that there for a reason.

>>23381895
>Stupid.
Again with the hysterics. I'm stupid because you're wrong? Please.
>Every time you do people post Legend and Strike Freedom clashing swords.
Please, pivot away from the Arondight as hard as you can. It's understandable.
>I don't care what direction he swung from
> the result was a slash going from bottom left to upper right
I posted a webm explicitly showing the Justice swinging and you still can't figure it out. Do I need to do an MS paint doodle for you to get it?

>>23381891
Discussing CE is a poor decision in general.

>>23381922
SEED haters should try not being retarded then
What fucking person needs directions explained to them like >>23381921

>>23381922
I don't think so, it's a lot of fun when people are acting in good faith and are trying to interpret character motivations or how exactly some mechanics work or whatever. The issues arise when people forget or straight up ignore details in the shows. How many times has "Kira survived a nuclear explosion!" been relitigated over the decades?

>>23381924
It's more bias than lack of intelligence. If you dislike something, points in its favor seem less credible, and points against seem more credible.

>>23381921
>I'm stupid because you're wrong?
No, because you're wrong and making things up. You've been using the same disproven argument for years.
>Please, pivot away from the Arondight as hard as you can. It's understandable.
That's not pivoting, stupid. That's an example of two beam blades clashing contradicting your argument.
>I posted a webm explicitly showing the Justice swinging
And I posted a picture of the result of that which shows the slash going from bottom left to upper right.

>>23381933
>If you dislike something, points in its favor seem less credible, and points against seem more credible.
Yeah, that’s being retarded
>NOOOOO SEED DESTINY IS BAD I COULDN’T BE WRONG, NEVER!!

>>23381934
>No, because you're wrong and making things up. You've been using the same disproven argument for years.
Wrong on both counts.
>That's not pivoting, stupid. That's an example of two beam blades clashing contradicting your argument.
You want to veer this into an argument about whether or not that ever happened instead of keeping on the topic of Arondight. I've given four examples of clashes going saber-to-shield to match your hypothetical "one example".
>And I posted a picture of the result of that which shows the slash going from bottom left to upper right.
You posted a screencap of a transitional frame. Justice would have to be sideways for your version to make sense. You're not being honest about anything here.

>>23381948
I'm not even sure if people believe what they argue in these threads anymore.

>>23381953
>Wrong on both counts.
Right on both accounts
>You want to veer this into an argument about whether or not that ever happened instead of keeping on the topic of Arondight. I've given four examples of clashes going saber-to-shield to match your hypothetical "one example".
Clashes going saber to shield doesn't mean that sabers can't clash. We know they can because we see it happen.
>You posted a screencap of a transitional frame.
No, I posted a screencap of the aftermath of Athrun's slash with the show showing us what they wanted us to interpret.

>>23381968
>Right on both accounts
Maybe the other anon is right, this IS getting retarded.
>We know they can because we see it happen.
It never happened in Destiny. You're mistaken. SF and Legend have one shield-to-shield clash and one saber-to-shield clash.
>No, I posted a screencap of the aftermath of Athrun's slash
You're making up facts that contradict the animation itself, and again, it only works the way you say if Justice is sideways.

>>23381933
>it's a lot of fun when people are acting in good faith and are trying to interpret character motivations or how exactly some mechanics work or whatever.
Yeah, but that happens maybe 1% of the time. Shit like the other response to my post and the greentext memes are by far the majority. It's like stepping barefoot on a pile of broken glass hoping that this time it's all lying flat.

>>23381981
>Maybe the other anon is right, this IS getting retarded.
It's been retarded since 04.
>It never happened in Destiny. You're mistaken. SF and Legend have one shield-to-shield clash and one saber-to-shield clash.
It did happen in Destiny.
>You're making up facts that contradict the animation itself, and again, it only works the way you say if Justice is sideways.
I'm going by what the animation showed. Even using your chart Athrun would have still hit the beam blade considering how long Justice's saber is, how deep the cut was and the angle Shinn was holding the sword.

>>23381993
Yeah, I guess that's true. Threads like the Rau thread don't come up often, but even in this thread, there have been some thought-provoking posts. >>23375723 >>23379117 >>23380783

>>23381998
>It's been retarded since 04.
Well, for what it's worth, I am not whoever has been arguing about it for years. I really don't think it makes a lot of difference whether the beams clash or not, except in super fringe cases like "could you harm Arondight by slashing at it normally".
>It did happen in Destiny.
I'm surprised that was the fight you were talking about. They're both going saber to shield there. This one in Phase 49 was the one I thought you would go for.
I don't really wanna argue anymore anon, we'll just have to accept that we disagree on this.

>>23382018
>They're both going saber to shield there.
This is what I mean by you're full of shit. We literally see the energy from their sabers clashing creating pink beams of light and a ring.

>>23382029
I disagree.

>>23382052
Strike Freedom's shield isn't even in position. The shield arm is nowhere near the beam saber. Same for Legend. You can see the top of its beam shield peeking between two dragoons. >>23381998
They aren't blocking with their shields.

>>23381998
>a single frame of animation error supersedes all other examples and word of god
sasuga SEED hater kun

>>23382062
Hey, you could be right, I just don't find it conclusive. I think he could have just blocked it, the shield is fairly long.

>>23382085
To be fair, I did say "in SEED Destiny" >>23381857
Although frankly, given that mirage colloid is supposed to be how beam sabers don't clash in SEED, and it's outlawed for military use in Destiny, I don't see why they wouldn't clash.

>>23382089
>error
You can do better than that.

Can we all agree SHITnn is a loser

>>23382157
SEED Destiny did a terrible job of actually demonstrating the Destiny's speed outside of like two scenes

Why are you people arguing about beam sabers clashing? Seed Freedom already made it clear that they DO clash and repel eachother.

>>23382216
More examples

>>23382219

>>23382216
That's Freedom, not the others >>23381890

>>23376733
>It makes some sense that if Rising Freedom, despite being a battery powered unit, had a bunch of upgrades (which its model kit says it is state-of-the-art)
>state-of-the-art


Never use databooks as primary sources. Listen to what the DIRECTOR says and use that. It carries more WEIGHT.

>On Strike Freedom VS Rising Freedom, and Immortal Justice VS Infinite Justice...

>Fukuda: Who decided that new models must be stronger? I’ve always questioned that specific idea. Morosawa and myself always thought that older models are more familiar and reliable to the pilots. Truthfully, there’s no point in making new models unless they’re two or even three generations ahead. For example, The Destiny Gundam was an over-spec unit when it was first manufactured, and it’s still good enough today.

>>23382296
Who said Rising Freedom was better than Strike Freedom? It's just modernized with the latest technologies.

>>23381857
>Except that isn't how the beam weapons work in SEED Destiny. A 'cutting' beam can't block other cutting beams.
Says who? Show me where it says that.

>>23382379
It can't even block physical blades.

>>23381656
>>23381453
>I still don't understand how Arondight managed to get cut in half in the final battle
>>23381700
>>23381857

You are ovethinking it. The sword breaks because it's reached the limit of its durability just like in this webm. Athrun had been clashing their swords for a while. Knowing how crafty Athrun is, he probably hit a weak point or just kept smacking the same spot until it broke.

So many of you whining about beams but can't even explain this.

>>23382216
You have 1 retard claiming beam sabers don't clash. 1 individual with too much time arguing with the 1st retard claiming beams do clash. While everyone else knows beam clash and prefer not to engage with the retard.

If beam sabers can clash with Zaku heat aces, then why can't beam sabers clash with eachother? I feel like I'm living in crazy town. Do Seed fans lack common sense?

If beam sabers can clash with Zaku heat axes, then why can't beam sabers clash with eachother? I feel like I'm living in crazy town. Do Seed fans lack common sense?

>>23382685
There are at most two people arguing for the beams not being able to clash and even then, the one persisting the most ultimately says that whether they don't doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things anyway.

>>23382379
>Says who?
Fukuda himself believes it and asked for episode 11 of SEED to be corrected for the remaster. The PG Strike Rouge + Skygrasper manual and volume 2 of Destiny MSV further back it up and explain why they don't interact.. CE beam sabers don't have enough reaction force to block each other, and it's likened to trying to block water from a hose with water from a hose. Certain beams are able to interact, like Freedom using its saber to block beam rifle shots, or Strike Freedom using its Calidus to negate Destiny's high energy beam cannon, but any indication of beam sabers clashing before CE 75 is simply in error.

This is only controversial among a subset of western fans. This has been established among Japanese fans for decades.

>>23382910
>Fukuda himself believes it

No he doesn't. Fukuda has literally said he will come up with a visual idea first, and he and the staff will "come up with a logically justification" later. That mobile suits are extensions of the very characters themselves. He believes character growth and drama should take priority over logic and rules.

>>23382910

Very strange stance for you to take since Director Fukuda has said the opposite.

He told fans not to place their faith in Gundam Seed databooks because the production team are constantly changing their minds and ideas.

>>23382928
And his visual idea was that they shouldn't interact until Freedom. Obviously.

>>23382768
It really doesn't matter. It's really just fluff to justify shields being more useful. I only brought it up earlier off hand.

>>23382910
I've looked through both that manual and Destiny MSV and I never saw anything about that in either of them.

>>23382910
Um...No. Fukuda said that he hates battles that end too soon because it's no fun if enemies are killed in one shot or one slice. He has sabers hit shields because he finds shields important and interesting. That shields can be used as melee weapons and so they can't be ignored during battle. Pilots must pay attention to both arms.

This is probably why Episode 11's was redone. Not only is it low quality animation, but the left arms of Strike and Duel aren't doing anything in that scene. Just hanging there. Fukuda dislikes that. He likes dynamic combat. All things must always be moving or doing something.

Fukuda even said he took inspiration from riot shields and them being used as melee weapons (shield bashing) by riot police. You can see that in the design of Strike and Freedom's shield. They look like riot shields especially with the eye slit.

>>23382938
>And his visual idea was that they shouldn't interact until Freedom. Obviously.

Did beam saber technology radically change between Destiny and Freedom?

Why are you so hyper obsessed about this idea that beam sabers in Seed can't touch? To the point where you have to make 7 different exceptions to the rule so your arguments don't fall apart.

>Regular Beams don't count!
>Beam boomerangs don't count!
>Beam shields don't count!
>Anti-ship swords don't count!
>Destiny's beam palm doesn't count!
>etc etc etc

I can't wrap my head around the sheer stupidity of the arguments. I'm genuinely wondering if people here have a mental disorder

I'm taking this as an EXVS2 thread

Mobile Suit winrate history of Overboost
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0Z9Lb8vJc

>>23382977
>Fukuda said that he hates battles that end too soon because it's no fun if enemies are killed in one shot or one slice.
Then why did he do precisely that in Destiny? Numerous times (Kira vs Chaos, Kira vs Saviour, Destroy Gundams becoming easy mooks)?

>He likes dynamic combat. All things must always be moving or doing something.
And the end result is that things are a fucking mess, where the audience can barely understand what is happening on screen.

>Fukuda even said he took inspiration from riot shields and them being used as melee weapons (shield bashing) by riot police.
Where did he say that?

>>23386254
NTA, but
>Numerous times (Kira vs Chaos, Kira vs Saviour, Destroy Gundams becoming easy mooks)?
Sting wasn't the main fight/attraction, so what would be the point for drawing things out? Even the battle with Athrun is a partial climax to an ongoing greater battle. Same argument could be made with the Destroys.
>And the end result is that things are a fucking mess, where the audience can barely understand what is happening on screen.
Just say you can't keep up.
>Where did he say that?
I'd also like to know.

>>23386652
>Sting wasn't the main fight/attraction, so what would be the point for drawing things out? Even the battle with Athrun is a partial climax to an ongoing greater battle.
This is only making excuses for Fukuda's crappy direction. Either the battles are interesting on the terms he himself is claiming, or aren't. Otherwise, what is the fucking point?

>Same argument could be made with the Destroys.
Psyco Gundams in mainline UC are unique, devastating weapons that are utterly terrifying every time they show up. Ditto any equivalent "giant MA", such as the Neue Ziel or Apsalus. Fukuda had no reason to put half a dozen Destroys in the episodes of Heaven's Base or Arzachel: those could've been any kind of mook for Shinn and Rey to blast with ease, rather than cheapen it out.

>>23386678
>You have to spend three minutes on Kira fighting jobbers in a greater battle or else it's crappy direction
You're kidding, right?
>Psyco Gundams in mainline UC are unique, devastating weapons that are utterly terrifying every time they show up
... You're kidding, right? Psycho Gundams are the lamest aspect of any UC show, where are you getting this crap?
>Fukuda had no reason to put half a dozen Destroys in the episodes of Heaven's Base or Arzachel
In the first place, that's how LOGOS operates. Secondly, the Destiny was literally touted as ZAFT 's strongest machine like maybe three episodes ago, so that power should be displayed in some meaningful way. Thirdly, Shinn's whole thing in the backend of Destiny is seeking an absolute power to protect others and put an end to wars which cause incidents like Berlin and the first battle of orb.

>>23386710
>>You have to spend three minutes on Kira fighting jobbers in a greater battle or else it's crappy direction
>You're kidding, right?
Not "three minutes", but at least give this bone a bit more meat than just "kira disables its foes in a literal flash".

>In the first place, that's how LOGOS operates.
I am talking about the WRITING and DIRECTION, not the fictional world of the story.

>Secondly, the Destiny was literally touted as ZAFT 's strongest machine like maybe three episodes ago, so that power should be displayed in some meaningful way.
And what's wrong with having it, say, blow a single Destroy when Impulse could barely dent its armor? There was no need to make the Destroy a worthless mook model.

>>23386785
>Not "three minutes", but at least give this bone a bit more meat than just "kira disables its foes in a literal flash"
I'll grant you that they should have done more for the battle with Athrun, simply on the basis that the Savior deserved better.
>And what's wrong with having it, say, blow a single Destroy when Impulse could barely dent its armor?
How is what you outlined preventing the Destroy from becoming a mook in your mind? If the Destiny could do it once, what's stopping it from happening again?
>There was no need to make the Destroy a worthless mook model
I don't really see the value in pretending it's some massive threat after it served its main purpose. Most mobile armors end up getting punked in a similar way once they've outlived their narrative purpose. At the very least, the Destiny mogging Logos's strongest soldier has some narrative point to it.

>>23386829
>pretending it's some massive threat
>pretending
This is your mistake, right here. The Destroy didn't just materialize in the middle of Berlin. The damn thing had trampled across a whole continent before it was stopped.

>If the Destiny could do it once, what's stopping it from happening again?
What's the upside into turning it into a mook? What does the story gain by this development? All I see is Fukuda being too lazy to come up with interesting concepts, so he goes back to repeating elements over and over.

>Most mobile armors end up getting punked in a similar way once they've outlived their narrative purpose.
And there is usually one unit in most of those cases (Big Zam, Elmeth, Neue Ziel, Alpha Azieru, Shamblo, etc). Apsalus was constantly being refined and upgraded in 08th. They even made the Neo Zeong even more terrifying in Narrative than what it was in Unicorn

>At the very least, the Destiny mogging Logos's strongest soldier has some narrative point to it.
The first time around, maybe. Doing it repeatedly on the same battle, and then again (and then again in Freedom) makes the storytelling look like it ran out of ideas.

>>23386837
>What's the upside of turning it into a mook?
Allowing more time to be spent on the actual focus of the second half? Establishing Durandal's ZAFT as more powerful and thus (with his increasingly untrustworthy nature) something to be more concerned about?
>All I see is Fukuda being too lazy to come up with interesting concepts, so he goes back to repeating elements over and over.
Anon, isn't your whole point that you want instances of the Destroy appearing to be more like Berlin?
And in the first place, when have mobile armors been particularly interesting? You listed a discount Big Zam that still got beaten with a single stab, and the Neo Zeong becoming more bullshit in Narrative. Moreover, if this is what you're qualifying as a decent development, adding Freedom into this (which has the Destroys growing weaker as Blue Cosmos fails to wrack up the funds to repair them) makes no sense.
>And there is usually one unit in most of those cases
Which changes what, exactly? They still got punked.
>They even made the Neo Zeong even more terrifying in Narrative than what it was in Unicorn
I wouldn't call the Mickey Mouse mobile armor that literally got "Soredemo"d to death terrifying.
>Doing it repeatedly on the same battle, and then again (and then again in Freedom) makes the storytelling look like it ran out of ideas.
If you believe the Destroys to be mooks, I don't get the fuss. It'd be like arguing that 0079's storytelling ran out of ideas because there are still Zakus out for the final battle.

>>23386254
>Kira vs Chaos

I read that Fukuda said that he was trying to depict the horrors of war in Seed Destiny. Fukuda was discussing how the Japanese had become too isolated from war in the 2000s. They started viewing war as entertainment through TV, newspapers, manga, etc. So Fukuda injected some extreme situations in the anime to show the Japanese that war isn't always fun or entertaining. That some situations in war aren't cool, and don't end well. So I guess Chaos and its pilot Sting got the short end of the stick. Somebody had to get shot down.

I don't really agree with Fukuda's approach here. But it's his choice. Wasn't a bad choice but there was room for improvement.

>Kira vs Saviour
This was a decently long battle. They were fighting for most of the episode. Although I agree the end of the fight was bad. Saviour deserved better.

>>23386894
>Although I agree the end of the fight was bad.
I actually quite like it. Kira is absolutely pissed at Athrun acting ridiculously and does everything short of actually killing him.

>>23386710
>In the first place, that's how LOGOS operates. Secondly, the Destiny was literally touted as ZAFT 's strongest machine like maybe three episodes ago, so that power should be displayed in some meaningful way. Thirdly, Shinn's whole thing in the backend of Destiny is seeking an absolute power to protect others and put an end to wars which cause incidents like Berlin and the first battle of orb.

I don't mind Shinn winning, but the way it was done was....bad. Having Destiny be able to completely defeat a Destroy Gundam with a single slash of its sword, and block all attacks with its single beam shield was too much even for Seed. Beam shields are powerful but not THAT powerful. Destiny was blocking beams that were like 5 times bigger than the suit itself. Beam shield didn't overheat or break. Nothing.

>>23386897
>I actually quite like it. Kira is absolutely pissed at Athrun acting ridiculously and does everything short of actually killing him.

Didn't Fukuda say that Kira was the one who realized he was acting foolish? That after Kira was shot down he realized he couldn't fight everyone by himself and stop wars alone. Maybe not worded exactly with those words but I recall some interview where he says something along those lines. Kira realizes his motivations were mistaken.

>Athrun acting ridiculously and does everything short of actually killing him.

How so? Athrun tried to visit Orb but was almost shot down. Cagalli had lost power in Orb. So he went to Zaft and at least tried to do some good and be a mentor to Shinn. Athrun isn't going to sit idly by and let the EA shoot nukes at Zaft. His friends and loved ones are still there.

>>23386950
>How so?
Athrun getting told about an assassination attempt on Lacus's life, knowing about Meer and deciding to do nothing about it was a dumb move.
>Athrun isn't going to sit idly by
Shinn and Kira's big issue with him in the first half of the series is his waffling on shit. He obviously gets some shit done, but he spends the first half of Destiny so petrified of the idea of making the wrong choice that he winds up almost doing nothing.

>>23387206
>Athrun getting told about an assassination attempt on Lacus's life, knowing about Meer and deciding to do nothing about it was a dumb move.

Please remind me on when he was told about it? I mean A LOT of people want to kill Lacus for her meddling.

>knowing about Meer and deciding to do nothing about it was a dumb move.

But they all knew about fake Lacus. She was singing for 2 years. The broadcasts reached Earth. Lacus and Kira knew about her but did nothing. How is that Athrun's fault?

>>23386902
>Having Destiny be able to completely defeat a Destroy Gundam with a single slash of its sword, and block all attacks with its single beam shield was too much even for Seed.
I don't know, I think there's some narrative merit behind the Destiny's strength. Thematically it fits Shinn well, and highlights Durandal's own desire for a power that cannot be opposed. Still, I get what you mean. They could have shown the battle eating away at the Destiny's power, which also would have merit.

>>23387218
>Please remind me on when he was told about it?
Right after the Archangel's first intervention. He went out of his way to arrange a meeting on neutral ground to talk things out.
>But they all knew about fake Lacus.
What are you talking about? Meer doesn't make any public appearances before the start of the war. They wouldn't have known about her before Athrun.

>>23386950
He didn’t tell Cagalli or anyone else he was joining ZAFT again, he ditched her when she needed him most without a word, and then justifies it as being for Orb’s sake, then gets angry at Kira and Cagalli for trying something to reduce the killing.
He’s done absolutely nothing to help Orb, but lectures and attacks Kira.

>>23387218
>Please remind me on when he was told about it?
Ep. 25, but by then, he’s acting as a ZAFT sycophant. “The other side is bad, my side must be good. Kira must be mistaken, it can’t be that I am.”