Thread 23451889

SNEED original or remaster?

>>23451889 (OP)
original (Ocean dub)

>>23451889 (OP)
>SNEED
brain rot

>>23451889 (OP)
Remaster fixes the Full Burst scenes, but turns Nicol's death into something retarded in an clunky attempt to absolve Kira of it. Your choice.

>>23451889 (OP)
Do not trust /m/ with anything Seed-related. There's a guy in here that hates it with a vengeance for some reason and is determined to shit up every and any discussion about it.
That being said, both versions are fine, but if action scenes are a priority to you I'd say watch the remaster.

>>23451889 (OP)
I don't really have any opinion beyond being here to say that Flay was the best character in SEED and it sucks they didn't do more with here on the second half of the series. It would have been cool if they forced her to be a pilot imo. The Strike Rouge should of been for her

>>23452084
>Flay was the best character
Why? Because she was racist?

>>23452101
nta but her character was the only one that portrayed the natural/coordinator conflict in an interesting way that wasnt comical like the super racist war crime lovers. She also made Kira a more interesting character by extension with their relationship revolving around guilt and manipulation bringing out his more interesting aspects.

As soon as Flay leaves the main cast Kira returns to being completely boring and the natural/coordinator conflict that drives the series is simplified by treating the root of all conflict as a few super racists on both sides.

The original.
The remaster reanimates scenes that don't really need it like OP.
And Strike's cut-down of the Blitz is so nonsensical and animated so poorly it makes less sense than the original.

>>23452225
What about the rest of Kira's friend group/Sai? I'd say the Archangel did a decent job displaying the issue overall.
>few super racists on both sides.
I'd say that's more the case with the EA than it is with ZAFT. Both are getting manipulated by Rau, of course, but he's just playing off of pre-existing sentiment. I'd say calling it the root of all conflict is a bridge too far.

My answer has generally been Remaster and switching to OG for a second if Nicol's death bugs you too much. I do miss River, though. Top five Gundam ED right there.

>>23452056
We all hated it when it came out

>>23452338
>What about the rest of Kira's friend group/Sai?
I think they're non characters after Flay gets off. One guy just dies, the girl has one moment when Dearka gets captured and then never says something interesting again, and Sai becomes so boring without Flay that he gets fucking deleted after SEED and is never heard of again.
>Both are getting manipulated by Rau, of course, but he's just playing off of pre-existing sentiment. I'd say calling it the root of all conflict is a bridge too far.
You have to understand how its being framed on a narrative-thematic level, not on a literal plot level. There is pre-existing antipathy and prejudice among the general population off screen and among the nameless grunts that get picked off but they are all portrayed as being stimulated by big super racist leader figures like Zala, Blue Cosmos and Rau, who are set up as the ultimate villains and then defeated by the good guys which immediately results in peace. It constructs a narrative that supports the naive assumption that ethnic conflicts can be solved if you just get rid of the "bad apples" and have all the reasonable people that are good at heart make peace with each other (naturals vs coordinators is actually mainly a class conflict, but SEED treats it just like an ethnic one, which is a different can of worms).

>>23451893
This.
The Demaster serves no purpose outside of showcasing their poor planning by the changes/retcons they had to make just so Destiny could exist. Reanimated scenes look worse the majority of the time, a god-tier and my personal GOAT Gundam ED removed to save 10 bucks, Han shot first 2.0

>>23452370
>They're noncharacters
But they're all still portraying the issues of coordinators and naturals in a way that isn't exaggerated.
>You have to understand how its being framed on a narrative-thematic level, not on a literal plot level.
On a narrative-thematic level, Rau literally doesn't work without acknowledging the hubris/antipathy that led things to this point. And again, Zala himself is someone being radicalized by the ever escalating war. And in the first place, SEED had established the peace earned by the end of the Bloody Valentine war as fragile with the After Phase OVA.
>naturals vs coordinators is actually mainly a class conflict
No, it's not. How many times are you going to push this nonsense narrative?

>23452356
>He's still coping

>>23451893
I just like the old dub because I just pretend imagine Ed and Double D in mobile suits whenever Kira and Athrun yell at each other.

>>23452356
Nigger, /m/'s main banner on this website is the fucking Destiny Gundam. In fact, this board was created specifically because discussions about Seed Destiny were out of control on /a/. Nobody thinks you're cool for hating on Seed and you don't fit in. Go back to xitter or whatever.

>>23452491
You say that like /a/ wasn't a constant bitchfest over how Destiny was going once Kira showed back up and everyone was singing its praises while it was airing. No amount of revisionism is going to change the sour taste the end of Destiny left in the mouth of everyone, including Japan's, or are we just going to pretend Final Plus was not a thing and that was always how Destiny ended?

>>23452491
Nobody liked SEED Destiny's second half when it came out.

>>23452453
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8of1GoOB-eI
Don't forget Miguel was Eddy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HX5SIEXIOo

>>23451889 (OP)
Are there any good quality torrents for original? I wanna watch that since Remaster amplifies everything I hate aboot Hiraiface and at least original looks tolerable.

>>23451889 (OP)
The remaster fixes scenes that were badly draw and off style. The real bad thing is that they cropped to make it widescreen.
>but muh Nicol
Yeah, it's a Han Shot First edit situation but it does not change the outcome or continuity of anything.

>>23452596
First three in Remaster are far worse. Only Arthrun's redraw looks tolerable.

>>23452581
Almost forgot yeah.
>>23452597
>Dearka Elsman vs. Bronzerod Samson

>>23452596
Athrun definitely looks better, but the others... Mu doesn't look good in either even though they did shade the right.

>>23452586
You can find it on nyaa.

>>23452628
I used to download this one, but the original's quality is so-so. Or is the bestest quality?

https://nyaa.si/view/1227785

>>23452432
>But they're all still portraying the issues of coordinators and naturals in a way that isn't exaggerated.
Thats why its a bad move by SEED to give them infinitely less screen time and development than the obviously evil super villains, Im saying its telling that SEED would rather focus on war crime lovers 1, 2 and 3 instead of the characters that could portray the ethnic conflict with nuance.
>Rau literally doesn't work without acknowledging the hubris/antipathy that led things to this point.
Rau's philosophy is emtpy, comical super villain stuff thats been done before countless times because its a ridiculous strawman ideology that sane people dont actually support and is only agreeable in a "I get your point" sort of way so that it can look like the heroes are fighting a villain with motivations more nuanced than they actually are but can ultimately dismissed as the ramblings of a madman like any ideology that arrives at the conclusion that humanity should just self destruct. How can you take him seriously on an ideological level?
>No, it's not. How many times are you going to push this nonsense narrative?
I dont know who youre talking about but youre free to disagree because Im not interested in regurgitating the argument here.

>>23452491
>>23452447
>>23452056
I dont get why its so hard to accept that SEED is just a naturally divise show on /m/, not unlike Wing or Victory. Trying to act like SEED is unarguably good by accusing every detractor of being a pure contrarian makes you look like youre trying too hard to fit in by constantly appealing to popularity and board culture. Anyone that disagrees with you is not literally one schizo, youre being schizo for thinking it must be so.

We all agree the GSD remaster is objectively better right?

>>23452633
There's one that was extracted from a Blu-ray collector's set.

>>23452384
Based. River is the best SEED song

>>23453105
There’s no reason to watch OG Destiny now unless you want to see how badly production issues can harm a show

>>23453184
There's no reason to watch remasters. The people who hate Seed hate it from their memories of watching it broadcast and fansubbed. It feels like the show I watched and the show they watched are two completely different things.

>>23453192
but i watched the remaster and hated it

>>23453105
>captain mommy titties
Not even a question.

>>23453166
I'll search for it.

>>23453008
>Thats why its a bad move by SEED to give them infinitely less screen time and development than the obviously evil super villains
Goalpost shifting aside, that's literally not the case. And again, what I said is covering the Archangel itself, not just the Heliopolis group.
>war crime lovers 1, 2 and 3
The only warcrime lover is Azrael (although even he sees the Coordinators as a legitimate existential threat). Patrick might hate the naturals for Junius 7 and killing his wife, but he's also someone being driven to take more drastic actions as the Earth Forces continue to ramp things up/commit more warcrimes. The fact that he became the way he did is seen as a tragedy, not some unavoidable facet of who he is. Calling Rau a warcrime lover is like saying Char loved the atrocities committed in CCA when half his argument against Amuro is that the complacency of the Federation allowing him to get this far and their continued weaponization of humanity's hope in the first place is what justifies him to act as he does.
>Rau's philosophy is emtpy, comical super villain stuff thats been done before countless times
Ignoring the fact that this paragraph is somehow more reductive than the philosophy it attempts to criticize, you're again missing the point. On the most basic level, Rau is a person born of the greed/envy of the Cosmic Era. He played both sides, but the pre-existing problems of the Cosmic Era were what allowed him to get so far in the first place. The darkness of the times literally shaped him into what he is and informs the actions that he takes. Therefore, he doesn't work on a narrative-thematic level a without acknowledging it. I don't see how this is a point of contention.
>I dont get why its so hard to accept that SEED is just a naturally divise show on /m/, not unlike Wing or Victory
Anon, no one is arguing that. There was literally one/two schizos in the SEED Freedom thread and he came here now.

>>23453311
One of them came here*

>>23453311
>Goalpost shifting aside, that's literally not the case. And again, what I said is covering the Archangel itself, not just the Heliopolis group.
I wasnt moving goal posts, your response just had a different point that was irrelevant to what I was arguing. If we talk about the rest of the Archangel, I dont really see what characters youre pointing to, considering that after Flay leaves there is no one else on the Archangel that expresses antipathy toward Kira or coordinators as a group, probably because Murrue, Mu and Natarle are the only major characters on the Archangel outside Kiras friends.
>he's also someone being driven to take more drastic actions
The fact that Zala ends up pushing for complete natural extermination removes him from being in a position you could be pushed into because of unfortunate circumstance, no sane person arrives at that conclusion even in the face of tragedy and war crimes, and the series has him die like a mad man executed by his own men who can clearly see hes not sane anymore.
>Calling Rau a warcrime lover is like saying Char loved the atrocities committed in CCA
Thats your misreading of CCA. Chars justification for the axis drop is making earth uninhabitable and forcing all of humanity into space to bring about the newtype awakening of all of humanity. He never thinks or says that the mere fact the Federation is corrupt and exploitable somehow justifies him taking advantage of it to show it off to everyone, thats not where his motivation as a character lies.
Rau wants humanity to commit war crimes because it will hasten what he thinks is their inherent wish for self destruction, the death and destruction is the direct end goal for him.
>person born of the greed/envy of the Cosmic Era
This is a sophistic interpretation that can be applied to many villains by analyzing them with a basic milieu-theory framework. The same can be said for Giren, Paptimus, Haman, Char and whoever because of how broad your interpretation is.

Okawara style or Shigeta style?

>>23453166
Bruh 400gb

>>23453385
Your initial point was that Flay was the only one that expressed the setting conflict between Coordinators and naturals in a non-exaggerated way. Mine was that this would apply to all Kira's friends and the Archangel in general. Then you made the argument about how they don't get enough screentime and development.
>Murrue
Absolutely treated Kira as a means to an end until around episode 11.
>Natarle
Questioned Kira's place in the Archangel as a pilot both due to his status as a civilian and a coordinator. This also changes in episode 11 when he proves how effective he can be. This arguably doesn't really go away until she learns about his survival much later.
>Mu
Actually chill the whole way through.
>no sane person would try to wipe out the people that just attempted to nuke your entire race off the map
Firstly, people would absolutely at least consider blasting down such a group, especially after moderate effort end up backfiring. Secondly, do you not realize someone going mad from grief and an increasingly insane war is generally a tragic trait? Athrun's final admonition to his father (who he wanted to talk some sense into) is the same that he gives Shinn.
>He never thinks or says that the mere fact the Federation is corrupt and exploitable somehow justifies him
In literally every argument he has with Amuro, he points out that he's being used by the Federation and that the people infesting the Earth are parasite. Now, do you think the person Char is describing when he says this is Mirai or Adenauer Paraya?
>This is a sophistic interpretation that can be applied to many villains by analyzing them with a basic milieu-theory framework.
He was literally created and raised (through bribery, mind you) to be a perfect copy of someone else and cast aside to die horribly the second he was revealed to be defective. Are you saying that isn't enough to back up the point I'm making? If so, on what grounds?

>>23453436
Yes, I made the point that Kira's other friends dont have enough screentime to be interesting, only Flay, who is. If you find them more compelling than I do thats fair but I think they arent.
Your points about Murrue and Natarle are such boring and biteless examples that dont compare to Flay at all, and you say yourself that they just stop doubting him as early as ep 11.
>Zala
They could have done more to make him sympathetic but Zala simply fails as a tragic villain with how little time is spent not showing him trying to advance natural extermination. The reason his moderate efforts backfire is also because of the blue cosmos super racists pulling the strings, which strengthens the false narrative that racism is solved by getting rid of the bad apples going at each others throats. If you think hes such a brilliantly written tragic figure then I wont waste time convincing you otherwise because my standards for such characters are different.
>CCA
The things he says about Amuro being wasted on the corrupt Federation dont support your misinterpretation about him justifying his actions on the basis of the corrupt federation inviting exploitation which somehow justifies doing so as a showcase of their corruption. The corruption of the Federation is supposed to be the prime example of humanities stagnation and decay that serves as the impetus for Amuro and Char seeking reformation in the form of Newtypeism. Char isnt making some attempt at showcasing the corruption of the Federation to the world, he exploits them as a means to achieve the Axis drop and the reformation of humanity, and you completely misplace his actions in the context of his motivations. There is something to be said about Char wanting to dish out "heavenly punishment" to humanity which has passed up so many chances for redemption, but thats another secondary motivation that doesnt work in the shallow way you described.

>>23453436
>>23453681
>Rau
Rau's origin would be a strong piece of evidence for your argument if it werent for Kira being the ultimate result of that greed and envy who becomes the savior that symbolically redeems the world in his battle against Rau, which runs counter to the metaphor (intentional or otherwise). The final battle of SEED just creates the narrative that whatever fundamental greed and corruption that Rau represents is not something fundamental enough that cant be fixed by good guys like Kira and Lacus uprooting the bad guys from control and stopping them from exerting their bad influence on the rest of humanity, circling back to the simplistic bad apples narrative.

>>23452596
I wonder if there’s a fan edit somewhere that splices together the original with the redrawn sequences. Because I can’t stand the upscaling and cropping they did for the HD remaster

I just hate how they use Destiny Kira design into SEED Kira design. It's fucking jarring.

>>23453681
>you say yourself that they just stop doubting him as early as ep 11.
Alright, let me make myself a little clearer. Murrue saw Kira as a tool to bail their asses out first, a coordinator second, and a person third (this is called out by Natarle when she hypothetically sulks about the Lacus situation). As her foil, Natarle saw Kira as a Coordinator first, a civilian burden second, and never even seriously considered his use. When Kira proves his abilities, Natarle begins to shift her thinking towards seeing Kira as an invaluable asset/tool for the war effort, even trying to cockblock the attenpt to give him an out of the military. THIS is the attitude towards Kira that Natarle doesn't start shaking off until at least the battle of Orb.
>Zala
I agree they could have done more, but that's besides the point. You were making the case that he was a war crime lover that was pulling the strings for the race war, I'm saying the show portrays him as a figure radicalized by the war.
>CCA
Are we seriously going to pretend Char's last words didn't involve him condemning humanity for being cruel enough to launch an asteroid on Earth? Not any shit about the future of Newtypes (something he arguably revealed to be bullshit earlier in their fight) there.
>Char isnt making some attempt at showcasing the corruption of the Federation to the world
Literally what in my posts even suggests I was implying that?
>Rau
Stopping GENESIS was Athrun's doing, along with that one nameless soldier.
Stopping Azrael was taken care of by Natarle, Murrue and Mu primarily. Flay symbolically does more to refute the inherent wrongness of Rau's philosophy, which is why he shoots her.
Kira fighting back Rau was good since he was about to wipe the Eternal and there's no way he could get away with what he did, but he wasn't the ultimate savior of the day. And after-phase still exists to tell you that this perfect peace following the Bloody Valentine was never a thing.

>>23454184
Hypocritically*

>>23454184
Ill just let your point about Murrue and Natarle stand considering its clear that how they treat Kira does not serve as an insightful flashpoint into natural/coordinator tensions in the same way his relationship to Flay did, it does nothing to supplant the important thematic function she served when she leaves the Archangel.
>Are we seriously going to pretend Char's last words didn't involve him condemning humanity for being cruel enough to launch an asteroid on Earth?
The line he said about humanity polluting earth is not about the Axis drop at all, its about humans destroying the earths environment by draining its resources and fighting wars on its surface (as shown in previous Gundam series). The Axis drop in his view is ultimately good for earth because it will force all humans off it and give it time to recover naturally.
>Not any shit about the future of Newtypes (something he arguably revealed to be bullshit earlier in their fight) there.
Char is a multifaceted character (unlike Rau) who is driven by a primary goal of Newtype awakening but also a petty man who harbors the secondary motivations of wanting to punish humanity and having a final duel with Amuro. That doesnt mean his beliefs about Newtypeism are all lies, it shows the gap between Char the symbol and Char the man, who ultimately proves Amuro right by showing that the Axis drop isnt a necessary last resort as stated by his ideology but also born out of his frustration and desire to settle personal grudges.
The line about pollution is still ultimately related to Newtypeism because in that moment he is arguing against Amuros reformist approach by telling him that humanity pollutes earth despite their capacity for understanding.
>Rau
I didnt say that Kira saved the day alone, I was talking about the what the fight conveys on a thematic level.
>After-phase
Didnt watch and its ultimately not relevant because Im talking about SEED in isolation.

RX78 fixed the originals
https://nyaa.si/view/1801041
https://nyaa.si/view/1808448

>>23454748
>CCA
I'm not talking about that line, I'm talking about this one in picrel. Some of the literal last words spoken before his death.
>That doesnt mean his beliefs about Newtypeism are all lies
He treats every Newtype on his side as a tool or means to an end, has literally no plan for after Axis is dropped, and tells Amuro in their final battle that he's not trying to bring new life to the world (with the context specifically being Amuro asking what he's planning to do once his Newtype revolution succeeds). The examples for him actually believing in a Newtypism rather than using it as an excuse to lash out against the world at this point are a scene between himself and Nanai (someone he's also using/lying to) and... I don't know, his old "souls weighed by gravity" slogan? I guess you can say he sort of places Amuro on a pedestal, but that's for the purpose of gaining an ultimate victory over him more than anything else.
>also
Anon, Char had Amuro dead to rights multiple points during this movie and constantly prioritized getting his rocks off with a massive final battle over the security of this plan he apparently believes in. At best, the higher cause Char claims to believe in is practically a lie he's telling others and himself this far in.
>I didnt say that Kira saved the day alone, I was talking about the what the fight conveys on a thematic level
On a thematic level, Kira is not standing alone against Rau the way you're suggesting but holding him back long enough for everyone I mentioned to get the chance to do the right thing as people rather than weapons of whatever nation claims them.
>not relevant
Anon, it's literally the epilogue to SEED. Going off the ending as it stands doesn't offer enough context to give your point any weight regardless.

>>23451889 (OP)
Destiny actually needs the remaster because the original airing looks like genuine garbage, but for Seed it was mostly necessary.

>>23455594
unnecessary*, I meant

>>23455594
Wings of Words should've stayed

>>23455557
>CCA
The line you posted is exactly what I was talking about. "Destruction" refers to pollution, not the axis drop he himself is doing.
You completely fail to understand Char and CCA in the broader context of 0079, Zeta and ZZ, and try to think of him as a character as shallow as Rau when the way they are written couldnt be more different. Char very clearly believed in Newtypeism, starting with 0079 after meeting Lalah and developing into a full belief in Zeta at the speech of Dakar.
CCA presents a jaded Char that begins to resort desperate measures out of frustration and spite after all the sacrifices to defeat or reform the federation failed. It doesnt mean he doesnt believe in it anymore or is using it as a pure tool to fool others, his ideology has become jaded and compromised as a result of his cynicism and pettiness, and so he justifies the axis drop as both a means to Newtype reformation and as heavenly punishment to humanity.
>He treats every Newtype on his side as a tool or means to an end
This is his prime character since 0079 and further develops into Zeta and speaks to his inability let other people get too close to him or let himself form a genuine connection with them. Its why his proteges Lalah and Kamille end up victims because even though he genuinely cared for them deep down he couldnt bring himself to treat them as more than soldiers, which begins to haunt him into Zeta and CCA. Simplifying this as "he doesnt care about Newtypes" is a misreading on your part. Its also why Char fixates on Amuro because their connection as enemies and rivals ironically brought them closer than any ally Char would allow to get close to him.
>prioritized getting his rocks off with a massive final battle over the security of this plan
This speaks to his flaw of narcissism and overconfidence leading to a misjudgement of priorities, once he gets his duel with Amuro he still tries to carry out the axis drop and tries to talk Amuro down from stopping it.

>>23455557
>>23455676
Needless to say Char is not some comical super villian with a grand plan pulling all the strings like Rau, he is a flawed person that allows his pettiness and narcissism to overtake his once great ambitions for humanity, and you must understand him as such, not some guy with a grand plan that has it all figured out and just deceives people for it.
>Rau and Kira
Kira being alone or supported by friends is completely irrelevant to what I was saying, it doesnt change the fact that Kira being the result of the ultimate coordinator experiments make him the same embodiment of greed and envy as Rau is supposed to be, only for him to be a savior instead of a villain. Kira winning alone or with help is irrelevant because him being portrayed as a hero figure despite having thematically similar origins to Rau throws a wrench in your interpretation of Rau.
>after-phase
The final scenes of SEED still work as a simple thematic conclusion that implies the heroes paved the way to peace or will continue to fight for peace to achieve it someday, whichever it is doesnt change the tone of naive optimism regardless of how many sequels and spin offs you insert into the points between. CE simply doesnt try to tell a story about century spanning conflicts that may never end in the way early UC does, its fundamentally optimistic so as to affirm the actions of its heroes.

>>23455676
*his prime character flaw

>>23455626
I think this is the whole reason it was changed. Maybe he felt that using it for Kira's best moments wasn't all that fitting after all, if the lyrics apply to much of the cast.

>>23455676
>The line you posted is exactly what I was talking about
The context of the conversation has so far been entirely been centered on Axis/Axis Shock, and Char (who prior to this point could easily be pinpointed to be talking about those on Earth) speaks in the broadest terms possible when addressing humanity. Your interpretation seems a reach at best.
>It doesnt mean he doesnt believe in it anymore
Anon, this is your problem here. Your entire argument pretty much comes down to, "he cared about before so he must care now!"
Even though you provide nothing from the film itself to bolster that claim.
>CCA presents a jaded Char that begins to resort desperate measures out of frustration and spite after all the sacrifices to defeat or reform the federation failed
You mean the ones he literally abandoned first like the AEUG?
>Lalah and Kamille
So are you suggesting then that Char cared about Quess and Gyunei deep deep down?
>he gets his duel with Amuro he still tries to carry out the axis drop
There's nothing left to drop in Char's eyes after he gets his duel. Axis passed the point of no return. Him telling Amuro to stop is a testament to how insane the latter's last gambit is, not any actual concern that a single mobile suit could push back an Asteroid.
>Grand plan
Where have I described either Rau or Char like that?

>>23455723
>Rau and Kira
If this is your argument, then I mean no offense but it's a bit silly. In the first place, you're leaving out the obvious nuance that Kira was actually raised as a person whereas Rau was raised as an object and then only able to survive/gain value to others through his abilities. Kira being morally superior to Rau or the hero BECAUSE of his status as the ultimate coordinator would throw a wrench in my interpretation. The show treating the Ultimate coordinator status as a good thing would throw a wrench in my argument. SEED does neither. The show makes the argument that Kira is an individual before all else (also revealing that the whole Ultimate coordinator thing was kind of pointless regarding his abilities anyway) and the whole matter is kept a secret known to very few.
>after-phase
By that logic, 0079 says the Universal century ended happily ever after the One Year War after the Zabis were wiped out and Char gave Newtypism a chance after giving up on it for five seconds. The same could be said of CCA, which ends with Zeon/Feds joining together to stop Axis, Amuro showing the light of the human heart and Adenauer (the literal face of the Federation's corruption) getting taken out by Quess.
>naive optimism
You keep going on about this but fail to actually say anything of merit regarding this enigma of an argument.

>>23456492
>Your interpretation seems a reach at best.
Environmentalism and the pollution of the earth has been an ongoing theme in Tomino Gundam and youre the one reaching if you think its about something else. You see he is also doing the Axis drop for environmental reasons, as I have said multiple times before, those two topics are not unrelated or mutually exclusive.
>Your entire argument pretty much comes down to, "he cared about before so he must care now!"
In your inability to view characters in a nuanced way you seem to think that he either believes in Newtypeism or doesnt when the answer lies in between where Char can no longer believe the uncompromising version he held up in Zeta. He hasnt given up on turning all of humanity into Newtypes, he gave up on doing it through reformism like Amuro is trying to.
>You mean the ones he literally abandoned first like the AEUG?
Char went MIA after Zeta. You have to say more than that if you want to interpret his disappearance as abandoning AEUG since his reasons for staying hidden in ZZ and the exact process of his shift of character between Zeta and CCA is left ambivalent.
>So are you suggesting then that Char cared about Quess and Gyunei deep deep down?
No I didnt because he approaches them as the already jaded CCA Char, not the 0079 and Zeta Char that still saw hope in Newtypes. Did you forget the part where I said Char changes as a character?
>There's nothing left to drop in Char's eyes after he gets his duel.
No, he clearly made an effort to still have the Axis drop happen after the duel and gets frustrated about the psychoframe interfering when Amuro steps in.

>>23456517
>>23456799
>Rau and Kira
The problem with Kira being the same product of greed and envy as Rau is that in your interpretation Rau is supposed to critique the society of CE by showing it produces madmen like him while Kira runs counter to this by showing that actually all that greed and envy can produce kind and talented people if you just raise them in a happy family, unintentionally conveying that all the inhumane experiments that lead to Kiras birth actually paid off. Whether he is a hero because of his origin or not is irrelevant, Rau fails as a condemnation of the society of CE when Kiras is of similar origin but doesnt end up maladjusted at all, undermining your idea that Rau embodies the greed of CE when Kiras existence affirms it.
>0079 says the Universal century ended happily ever after the One Year War
Literally yes, 0079 was conceived as a standalone work first and has a happy ending that was only recontextualized five years later in Zeta Gundam.
>naive optimism
This is something Ive been getting at the entire time when I say that SEED crafts simplistic narratives about how racism and ethnic conflict is resolved, Im saying its gross simplification of these topics speaks to a worldview that is informed by naive optimism when the reality of the topics SEED talks about are much more complex and multifaceted in a way it clearly fails to portray.

>>23456517
One more thing,
>The same could be said of CCA
this is completely wrong because the ending of CCA is obviously written and framed in an ambiguous way and doesnt work as a happy ending like 0079 and SEED could.

>>23456799
>Environmentalism and the pollution of the earth has been an ongoing theme in Tomino Gundam
I never said otherwise.
>You see he is also doing the Axis drop for environmental reasons
How does this so totally override my own topic in your mind? You're really thinking Char isn't sneering at the very people he's using to commit this act, especially when he repeatedly goes out of his way to give Londo Bell a chance to stop or kill him?
>You have to say more than that if you want to interpret his disappearance as abandoning AEUG
No I don't. He had all the means in the world to get back to leading his faction (colony support, communicative technology wherever he winds up, Newtype telepathy, etc.) and he chooses not to. What reason is there to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't abandon the leadership role when he had to be guilted into doing what the AEUG needed for Dakar?
>He hasnt given up on turning all of humanity into Newtypes
Again, what you have to support this is a single line in the movie spoken to a character he is using. Char is at his most honest when he's around Amuro and talk of evolving or reforming humanity is discarded outright by the man himself. His actions towards every Newtype not named Amuro point to his belief in Newtypism being hollow at best and a lie at worst. Also, he was at least on some level trying to get himself killed through this entire thing. The most I can say is that Char is seeking to symbolically avenge the death of his dream through the drop. Axis was chosen specifically for a reason.
>Did you forget the part where I said Char changes as a character?
I know he changed. It's still your job to show in some way how he changed yet maintained that honest care for Newtypism.
>No, he clearly made an effort to still have the Axis drop happen after the duel
What part of laughing at your rival and declaring yourself the ultimate victor sounds like "making something happen" to you?

>>23456816
>greed and envy can produce kind and talented people
How do you not see this as disingenuous? In the first place, almost nothing of Kira's actual talents/abilities are actually owed to being the Ultimate Coordinator. Remember, the artificial womb was made to erase a margin for error as minor as someone's eyes not being the preferred color. Without the artificial womb, Kira would be very slightly less talented as a coordinator at most. Secondly, Kira growing up to be heroic after a normal childhood instead of his Father's latest project standing in contrast to Rau becoming a suicidal misanthrope after living constantly aware of his status as a failed clone following his upbringing as a product does nothing to invalidate my argument. Rau still faced more of the cosmic era's greed and was warped it. Kira faced less of it and still almost lost himself. A more honest reading of the scenario is that being raised by a loving family and (eventually) finding like-minded friends saved Kira from becoming a less wretched version of Rau or a Berserker living only as a weapon. The care received redeems Kira, but it doesn't justify what was done to him, and the narrative doesn't even remotely entertain the notion that it does. It wouldn't have been a hurdle that he needed to clear if it was. It's like saying alcoholism isn't so bad if the alcoholic then goes on to become a hero after recovering.
>Naive optimism
I know it's something you've been getting at this whole time, but your words on the matter are too reductive/broad to actually mean anything. Are you saying it's wrong to shoot down nukes aimed at Civilian areas? Is it naive to try and stop poor faith shitters when they crop up in positions of power?
>CCA again
Even if you say that, the reasons for optimism outweigh the reasons for dread in CCA's ending.

>>23453179
>>23452384
>>23452351
>>23451893
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3nWXDLkOgI

>>23456939
>You're really thinking Char isn't sneering at the very people he's using to commit this act, especially when he repeatedly goes out of his way to give Londo Bell a chance to stop or kill him?
You try to argue this is his sole motivation when that is a secondary one.
>Again, what you have to support this is a single line in the movie spoken to a character he is using.
>It's still your job to show in some way how he changed yet maintained that honest care for Newtypism.
I have done exactly that and I'm not going to repeat myself and provide you a full recap and analysis of CCA just because you cant parse the basic character motivations and themes behind the movie and dont understand how to seperate primary and secondary character motivations. You can take this as a concession on my part if you want, I capitulate before your ignorance.
>Are you saying it's wrong to shoot down nukes aimed at Civilian areas? Is it naive to try and stop poor faith shitters when they crop up in positions of power?
I havent suggested anything like that at all, and I dont know what Ive written for you to get the idea that this is what I was suggesting.
>I know it's something you've been getting at this whole time, but your words on the matter are too reductive/broad to actually mean anything.
I literally said
>This is something Ive been getting at the entire time when I say that SEED crafts simplistic narratives about how racism and ethnic conflict is resolved, Im saying its gross simplification of these topics speaks to a worldview that is informed by naive optimism when the reality of the topics SEED talks about are much more complex and multifaceted in a way it clearly fails to portray.
If you dont understand how this is a criticism of how Gundam SEED deals with its themes then Im at a loss at how to repackage and simplify my argument to make it understandable to you.

>>23457063
>>23457103
Id write more about what Kira and Rau represent but Im honestly not interested anymore. I concede and declare you the victor of this argument.

>>23451889 (OP)
Desert Eagle in the forehead sounds like a better option.

>>23453914
Someone should try.

Where can I download the original fansub with all the old names like "Asuran" and "Kagari" and "Lux"?

>>23457333
I don't think 20 year old torrents would still be seeded, you might be out of luck

>>23456939
>You try to argue this is his sole motivation
No I don't. The whole "lashing out at the world" thing is the relevant link between Char and Rau so that's what this conversation has been focusing on as a consequence. Seriously, how hard is it to ask for clarification?
>I have done exactly that
No you haven't. I make the claim that Char has effectively given up on Newtypism and now at most seeks to avenge it (disclaimer: since I apparently have to spell it out, I am not saying this is Char's sole motive). To uphold this claim, I use evidence from the movie. You counter by ignoring that and giving me a Sparknotes of your interpretation of Char's psyche informing his decisions. Literally every argument you've made regarding Char's Newtypism in CCA relies on us simply accepting your interpretation of events to be true or just plain ignoring Char's absence in ZZ to give him an (unearned) benefit of the doubt.
>I havent suggested anything like that at all
You haven't said ANYTHING I can definitively agree or disagree on regarding the topic. That's the point I'm trying to make here.
>I literally said
Anon, do you not see how ridiculously broad that statement is? It might as well have said nothing at all. In the first place, the closest we get to ethnic conflict getting resolved on a global/cultural level occurs in Destiny under Durandal's leadership (something that predictably fell apart following his defeat). At any rate, are you saying the way individuals unlearn their pre-existing biases by exposure to the declared "other" is naive? Is the belief that there are corrupt individuals in the world who will actively play on the existential fear/resentment following a tragedy wrong?
Saying something needs to be more complex isn't saying HOW said thing needs to be more complex. In other words, be more specific.
>>23457109
Was it any good, what you were planning to write?

>>23451889 (OP)
Everything down to the openings are scuffed as shit, makes it endearing, but I'd imagine the inconsistencies get especially annoying when they start reusing the same clips in fights. If I remember right SEED reuses shit more than Wing, and Wing reused that one clip of a Taurus firing into space damn near every episode in the 2nd half of the show.

>>23457537
Also the Red Frame was in the original OP1 so that's cool

>>23452356
Isn't SEED the most popular Gundam series in the world? The west has Wing but SEED was very popular even among less hardcore mecha fans, it was basically the first big Gundam in half of Asia to the point where China has I believe the only non-japanese 1/1 scale—that's also a freedom mind you—and SEED is pretty popular in the European side of things. Basically if you watched any Gundam in the 2000s it was very likely to be SEED, also it's always among the highest rated Gundam series' on any anime platform/forum.

>>23457570
Don't feed it.

>>23457428
>the relevant link between Char and Rau
>I make the claim that Char has effectively given up on Newtypism and now at most seeks to avenge it
I make the argument Char hasnt given up on Newtypeism completely in the way you claim and spent this thread trying to frame the events of CCA as a last resort to Newtypeism instead of just some shallow "lashing out at the world", which it partially is, but framing it as the main reason or objective is wrong, its a tangential thing. I just couldnt stand your comparison of Char to Rau by implying that Char is doing the Axis drop for the same shallow reasons a madman like Rau is.
>>23457428
>Literally every argument you've made regarding Char's Newtypism in CCA relies on us simply accepting your interpretation
If you think your interpretation is so rock solid and everything I said so far seemingly isnt substantiated by the movie and previous anime at all then I wont waste effort trying to correct your shallow reading of what CCA is about.
>You haven't said ANYTHING I can definitively agree or disagree on regarding the topic.
Thats to be expected because I think SEED is far shallower than you would like to believe and CCA is far deeper than you give it credit for. Of course the things I say will sound disagreeable to you.
>At any rate, are you saying the way individuals unlearn their pre-existing biases by exposure to the declared "other" is naive? Is the belief that there are corrupt individuals in the world who will actively play on the existential fear/resentment following a tragedy wrong?
I didnt, I said these arent the only things there is to racism the the way SEED frames it.
>be more specific.
A depiction of serious topics needs to be more complex because simplifying the issue does nothing more than make light of it, which I hope you can understand to be a bad thing on its own. I dont need to make up a fanfic version of SEED for you just because you cant understand how this is a fault of the show.

>>23457428
>>23457884
>Was it any good, what you were planning to write?
It would be no good, seeing as this argument has devolved into me repeating myself. Of course I dont expect to change peoples mind with internet arguments, so this is the kind of moment where its good to leave it be.

>>23453008
SNEED was released after 9/11 and in that context I think that it had a good message. The EF had to be the bad guys in order for people to give their own country a benefit of doubt when it comes to intervention

>>23451889 (OP)
Original beats out the remaster purely because of the emotions and Kira actually having a character flaw.

>>23457884
>Char has given up on Newtypism because he doesn't even bother caring about the Newtypes on his team, is plainly trying to get himself killed by the end of this, and says in no uncertain terms that he has no plans for reforming humanity to Amuro in their final battle. He also says that the girl that initially reminded him of Lalah simply annoyed him so he turned her into a tool
>He also specifically chose Axis (an area of great disappointment/bitterness) specifically for this operation, even telling the rock to burn up and take its awful memories with it.
>Char actually has plans for reforming humanity because he did in previous entries and if I say he's jaded by past experiences, then that means I've said something of value to contradict this
Your defense for your reading on Char's Newtypism is just woefully underwhelming. I don't want you to repeat yourself, I want you to actually use scenes from the MOVIE to make your point the way you did with the environmentalism thing. Where do you think you've done that? At most you've said, "well, actually Char just gave up on THIS specific version of Newtypism."
Did you think that's all you needed to make a point?
>If you think your interpretation
It's not that my argument is iron-clad. It's just that your case is weak and in some cases built on willful ignorance.
>Thats to be expected
Anon, is English your first language? How did you even remotely get this from what I said?
>A depiction of serious topics needs to be more complex because simplifying the issue does nothing more than make light of it
What is SEED in particular doing regarding its narrative that fails to see the "bigger picture?" Outside of SEED, can you even describe this bigger picture, or is it just some fuzzy idea in your head that's not worth talking about? You seem to be averse to details in general, now that I think about it.

>>23457934
Are you talking about Nicol's death?

>>23458004
Correction: You DID in fact use one example from the movie with one of Char's final lines (a point I brought up first, but details).
>that humanity pollutes earth despite their capacity for understanding
But the moment discussed has nothing to do with people understanding one another. It has to do with humanity's capacity to care for the world around them. You might say as a counter that Newtypism is all about radical empathy, but Char has pointedly rejected this narrative. Furthermore, marrying this moment with the environmentalism theme means linking it with Earth, linking it with souls weighed down by Earth's gravity (assumed non-newtypes for the sake of your interpretation). Unless you're suggesting all those in the Earth/Neo Zeonic forces pushing back that rock spontaneously became Newtypes, I don't see how Char could be linking this back to Newtypism.

While I love River as much as the next guy, I'm honestly surprised so many said they preferred the original.

>>23451889 (OP)
original, you can only watch the compilation cuts for destiny though

>>23452056
>There's a guy in here that hates it with a vengeance for some reason and is determined to shit up every and any discussion about it.

That sounds like a certain tomino hatin annotard

>>23460130
Why would a "tomino hatin annotard" talk about seed?

Some retard really said Athrun had a chance to take out the Calamity in episode 42 and I feel like an idiot thinking he was right without checking.

>>23457404
>I don't think 20 year old torrents would still be SEEDed
Heh
>>23457578
Seed it.

>>23465980
>Seed it

>SEED thread
>most of the replies are people arguing about CCA.

>>23467396
Tbf, we were arguing about SEED and CCA at the same time.

>>23467309
Athrun really won in the long run
>the true protagonist of Destiny
>punched the shit out of both Shinn and Kira
>piloted the coolest suits (zaku, gouf, zgok, not to mention his gundams)
>got two women at the end of Freedom, cute hacker orbiter that can watch in the corner when he goes down on Cagalli
>didn't wait 20 years to kiss his girl

>>23468306
>piloted the coolest suits
But he didn't get to pilot the COOLEST suit!

>>23468583
>But he didn't get to pilot the LAMEST suit!
Ftfy.

>>23468598
>Ftfy.
But anon, I posted the Destiny, not the JOBiour.

Gundam seed will always look retarded with that crappy artstyle

>>23468783
Fortunately, it wasn't the Justice.

>>23468876
It was all part of my plan.

>>23467396
Based isn't it?

>>23468306
JOBrunfags are funny.

>>23469144
hey man, I love Kira and Shinn too, but I'm just stating the facts here

>>23457570
I watched it recently and it was extremely popular for a good reason. It wasn't the best, but it was a gritty military sci fi with great character chemistry, voice acting, and development. It was also shaped subsequent mecha series like Code Geass and Cross Ange.

>>23478094
I didn't realize SRWY was out already. Did they add the type IIs?

>>23480424
No Type IIs.

Kira never killed anyone who didn't deserve it.
Nicol? Killed himself.
Heine? Got himself killed

>>23452084
i hated flay and that's why she's my favorite character
she was the only character to provoke an emotional response from me in seed or seed destiny

>>23452084
They pretty much made it a point to show that she was completely useless in any way and so she just acted as a bedwarmer/cocksleeve. Would've been very weird to just say she's a mech pilot now

Remaster, particularly the Blu Ray version which swaps out a good chunk of the zoom and crops in the Youtube/Broadcast reversion for redrawn scenes (there's still a bunch that remain, but the Blu Ray version is less noticeable). It's also better for continuity purposes for leading into Destiny, SEED Freedom, and the upcoming Freedom Zero movie because of the removal of the recap episodes, Mwu's death being removed, things like the Perfect Strike existing.
>>23451893
There's some digital rips that contain the old english dub spliced to it but not all of them contain it.

>>23451889 (OP)
It's like choosing between Ebola and AIDS.
If I had to, I'd rather choose the OG one (Ebola).

>>23468879
>my
Are you neglecting Cagalli again? You know what happened last time.

The remaster ruins the ED timing for episode 1. That's all.

>>23452013
>grampaw still seething his comfy simpsons threads will never return
It's been eight years. Sneed is a meme, get over it.

>23457884
>The Chartard outs himself as a petty hypocrite arguing in poor faith after several posts of posturing about higher media virtue
Tomino couldn't have written it better himself

I only ever saw the first seed Destiny movie, but remember liking how they streamlined events. Are the other compilations any good or should I stick with the remaster?

>>23498241
Look at cope on you. Better hope he doesn't read what you posted under your breath.

>>23499014
>Cope
Retard, he literally said it himself. What do you think you're defending here?

>>23499041
>he literally said it himself.

That other anon called himself a hypocritical chartard arguing in bad faith? i'm confused.

>>23501906
He was going on and on about needing to see nuance only to reveal the entire reason the discussion partially derailed into a CCA slapfight in the first place was because he saw a slight comparison between CCA Char and Rau being made and started building up strawmen in his tardrage.

>>23451889 (OP)
>>23452596
>>23452597
Hirai’s art style took such a giant nosedive, the original scenes all look way better, how did he manage to get worse at making nice looking characters?

>Hirai has mindbroken him completely
Best artist.

>>23502677
Gotcha. Yeah, fuck that guy.

>>23502725
Is this post serious? No way.

>>23451889 (OP)
Remaster for the sex scenes