Schumann vs Liszt edition.
This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.
>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:
https://pastebin.com/NBEp2VFh (embed)
Previous: >
>>126855849>When he finished playing, Liszt gave an after-dinner speech, declaring that new trails were being blazed for music everywhere, and even that which a few years before had evoked the admiration of the world was already Rococo. He tactlessly praised the music of Meyerbeer at the recently-deceased Mendelssohn's expense, heedless of Schumann's well-known aversion to Meyerbeer's music and his esteem for his departed friend. Schumann flew into a rage, seizing Liszt by the shoulder and shouting: "And Mendelssohn? Is he also Rococo? Meyerbeer is a runt compared to Mendelssohn, who was an artist who made an effect, not only in Leipzig, but throughout the entire world, and Liszt should hold his tongue." After more similar abuse, Schumann retreated to his bedroom. Liszt made an attempt to downplay the event, but eventually gave up and left the party, saying to Clara as he departed “Tell your husband that there is only one man from whom I would so calmly accept words such has he has just said to me." Liszt drove home with Wagner in a state of "amused embarrassment."
>>126884684 (OP)There's nothing more patrician than having heated, passionate arguments about art.
If I had to choose between Schumann and Liszt as to who I'd rank the better composer, I don't think I could decide. They might be as tied as any two composers could be. Schumann has variety, but Liszt did things on the piano no one else did... argh!
>>126884798For me it's not even close.
>>126884798>>126884826Schumann all the way for me.
>>126884826Oh, uh, m-me too
Anyone here who plays the piano? I bought a Roland FP-10 digital piano for Christmas and started taking weekly lessons in february. Currently practicing on a Mazurka (op 67 no 2) by Chopin, trying to add some musicality and the pedal to the piece while waiting for my teacher to return from her vecation.
Also thinking of upgrading to a new digital piano since the one I have feels so much different to my teachers Yamaha CLP735 (the keys on her piano are super light while mine are really heavy), so it's always a pain playing on her piano. I've been trying out different pianos to find one with a similar key action and the closest I've found was a Kawai. Just need to test it the same day I have my next lesson before I decide whether to buy it or keep looking.
now playing
start of Beethoven: Violin Concerto in D Major, Op. 61
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxoWncOF-FM&list=OLAK5uy_mrjugKJTZLTmhV0Uq07gl0yUl-ENL3zuA&index=1
start of Bernstein: Serenade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-0xYfTZbXs&list=OLAK5uy_mrjugKJTZLTmhV0Uq07gl0yUl-ENL3zuA&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mrjugKJTZLTmhV0Uq07gl0yUl-ENL3zuA
>Following her acclaimed debut album of the Bach Solo Partitas & Sonatas, 18-year-old violinist Hilary Hahn returns with her 1st concerto recording for Sony. Having established herself as the hottest young violinist in classical music today, Hahn's consummate skill and passion for performance have astonished audiences worldwide. Here she demonstrates confidence and virtuosity in her choice of repertoire to record, including an engaging showpiece by Leonard Bernstein.
>>126884893>the keys on her piano are super light while mine are really heavyNot a piano expert, but I think they should be quite heavy. Grand piano keys are usually heavy so it'd be better to get used to the real thing.
>>126884798>...argh!are you gay or something
>>126885098No language is off-limits to me in my pursuit of expression, anon.
>>126885016I tried many upright and grand pianos, acoustic and digital and they all felt so very different from each other, but 9/10 had much lighter keys than I currently have.
I was told to try and find a lighter key action so that I can learn proper technique and control and so that I won't tire out my fingers.
>>126885116Have you thought about why you'd need to rank them at all?
>>126885098No he's just Chinese
>>126885153>but 9/10 had much lighter keys Then you probably need lighter keys. Have you considered buying an upright piano? I think they're cheaper than decent digital pianos.
>>1268851561) I love ranking things, it's in my top 10 favorite activities even, and
2) It was just a fun and demonstrative way to call them both great composers of equal immensity
>>126885175>No he's just Chinesedon't you dare try and claim me, Chang
>>126885175>Have you considered buying an upright piano?Yes, but unfortunately I live in a small pod with grumpy neighbours so being able to turn the volume down or just practice with headphones on is of great value to me. Would love to have an acoustic but that'll have to wait several years until I'm actually good at playing and hopefully will be living in a house by then. For now I'll have to stick to digital pianos, we'll see if I end up with a Yamaha or a Kawai.
>>126885014Yeah... stop this recording after the Beethoven Violin Concerto, sheesh. Sorry, Lenny, but your serenade is trash.
now playing, in honor of the thread
start of Schumann: Davidsbündlertänze, Op. 6 - First Edition (1837)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfGXsrzfMgE&list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw&index=2
start of Schumann: Concert sans Orchestre, Op. 14, Piano Sonata No. 3 - First edition (1835/36)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5AEO7cqjY&list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw&index=20
Schumann: Allegro in B Minor, Op. 8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEwjMmElaH8&list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw&index=23
start of Schumann: Kreisleriana, Op. 16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrdWgm93sVE&list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw&index=24
start of Schumann: Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EHG_cEoIqo&list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw&index=31
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l9p0_aYTWo1dLTKNpA09VOJo0N486TdFw
now playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCHE-UPwBJA
>>126884798Obviously Liszt was the greater composer. No competition there. But people usually prefer Schumann because of sentimental reasons like he's 'closer to my heart' and expresses more 'personal feelings'.
>>126885706Schoenberg could compose some really beautiful stuff too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wel16CQ3r3k
>>126886275Schumann is easier to follow. I can listen to the Liszt Piano Sonata and be selectively amazed, but I would be lying if I didn't say I frequently got lost or felt like it was meandering a bit. Schumann is less innovative but he's also simpler to follow and has catchier themes.
>>126886336Late Romantic slop.
>>126886275Really? Where's Liszt's string quartets, piano trios, violin sonatas, and piano quintet/quartet? Prefer who you want but "obviously?" c'mon now, son
>>126886449Lmao, and what does any of this have to do with Liszt being a superior composer to Schumann? It's the same retarded shit people do whenever any of the Romantic Progressive composers are praised. 'Wagner's a great composer? where's his string quartet?' Like are you retarded? Do you think the measure of a great composer is writing a string quartet? Are you so incapable of identifying any other qualities of music that you just judge composers according to how many genres they wrote in?
>>126886491I accept your concession.
>>126886491Versatility isn't everything, but it's not nothing either, ya feel?
If you have a moment, what are your top 3 piano sonatas?
>>126886570Beethoven 32
Schubert D.960
Liszt Sonata in B-- no wait, Scriabin 5
>>126886508And writing string quartets isn't the only type of versatility. This is really a very stupid criticism given that Liszt was an extremely versatile composer and covers an enormous rang of music across his entire oeuvre. It's not even a Wagner situation either, since Liszt DID write in and reinvigorate older forms, such as the Oratorio.
>>126886602Uh, except Schumann has everything. String quartets, piano trios, violin concerto, violin sonatas, cello concerto, cello pieces, piano quartet/quintet, tons of lieder.
>>126886602>>126886617Liszt wasn't even versatile enough to write a piano concerto, even Chopin did that! whereas Schumann's is one of the all-time great ones
>>126886657>Liszt wasn't even versatile enough to write a piano concerto? He has two.
>>126886672Whoops... uh, um, that's how bad they are, I forgot they even exist! Phew, saved it. I've been up all night, gimme a break.
>>126886570beethoven les adieux
schumann 1
beethoven 31
>>126886682They're pretty alright, I find it easier to listen to by comparison to his Sonata at least. Kondrashin/Richter have a really good recording.
>>126886692They're fine, yeah, I just legitimately blanked out on them for a moment and couldn't resist the point in my argument's favor, its falsity notwithstanding.
>>126886570Chopin no.3
Schubert no.21 D.960
Hammerklavier
>>126886617And most of it is garbage. Schumann's never been considered a master of form, he just experimented a lot and sometimes produced something great, sometimes something awful, and often it's in between. Also, Schumann never wrote a tone poem.
>>126884798Obviously Schumann. Liszt is a basically virtuososlop composer with a few interruptions of artistic seriousness.
>>126884798Liszt comfortably.
>>126886617Schumann's string quartets are garbage
0kt
md5: a4b17454e9f4a1da98538f978f091ed9
🔍
I definitely didn't mean to turn this thread into cringe shitflinging between lisztfags and schumannfags I sincerely apologize.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zYXyJqvkGo
>>126887303Schumann may not have been have had the greatest knack for form, although he was no slouch at his best e.g. Symphony 4, but placing him against Liszt makes him look like Brahms. Liszt is one of the most formally incompetent composer in the repertory and huge swathes of his work suffer from bloat and a meandering, directionless tendency with multiple false starts even when the material has promise. Listening to basically any Liszt tone poem is like being blueballed.
>>126887689You clearly just have a specific idea, narrow-minded idea of what form should be and are criticising Liszt on that basis.
>>126887754so true liszter sister
>>126887768Thank you Schumann faggot.
>>126887782so true liszter sister
>>126887689>Listening to basically any Liszt tone poem is like being blueballed.if he wanted to write generic sonata form he could have. the form in his symphonic poems is constructed to reflect... the poetic content.
>>126887803That's cute but it doesn't make them good music. There are much better examples of novel formal writing in tone poems.
>>126887818>There are much better examples of novel formal writing in tone poems.because.. there just is!
>>126887899Yeah, there is. Dvorak for example among contemporaries.
Tchaikovsky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuvcZ3NhE3U
>>126886570mozart 18 (fav recording Siegfried Mauser)
beethoven 29 (fav recording Charles Rosen, with 3rd movement by Jean-Bernard Pommier)
beethoven 31 (fav recording Steven Osborne)
I don't like classical because it doesn't have a constant beat in the background keeping time. it doesn't make me wanna groove and move.
>>126887616>Schumann's string quartets are garbageuh, hate to embarrass you in front of all your friends, but,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T896-9lBW5g
>>126888166Yeah, you have been corrupted by shitty pop "music", you're a normalfag. Many such cases.
>mfw I get Romantic and listen to Bruckner 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gybeenk-ClA&list=OLAK5uy_kvX6Mv0Cy0y-hFRuOXKNF6CHtOplV9bMw&index=1
>>126886570Liszt B minor
Scriabin 4
Beethoven 8
>>126888166I don't know why you think music needs a drum beat for there to be rhythm.
Bach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhWSpDvJdUQ
>>126886672they're 3 ackchually
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DsSLScju2g
>>126884684 (OP)Liszt:
Best Romantic composer
Better pianist than Chopin
Coined the phrases “Transcription” and “paraphrase”
Better virtuoso than Paganini
Very prolific: even had time to write a bunch of choral music no one listens to
Could drink heavily without it affecting his speech or piano playing
Wrote a new theory of music he was too scared to publish and is now lost
Supported all his fellow composers
Invented Impressionism, atonality and modern music
Despite all this he was a genuinely good nice guy and not a massive arsewank like Wagner
Died a brutally depressed alcoholic at 74
And that’s why Liszt is the best
>>126886570Schubert D.959
Beethoven 30
Beethoven 31
Schubert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSEHbtwyXPg
>>126888568Choices are a bit generic, aren't they?
>>126888837And? I was asked for my favourite piano sonatas and listed them. What's your point?
>>126884684 (OP)>Liszt drove home with Wagner in a state of "amused embarrassment."Wtf did they have cars back then?
>>126888992it was a spaceship actually
>>126888188He's right though, that's a failing of classical. You can be snide about it all you like.
I was thinking that last night, classical does not have anything that rocks in the same way as this just for example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38CRu1rCaKg&list=RD38CRu1rCaKg&start_radio=1&ab_channel=JohnWasson-Topic
Classical fan boys will dissmiss that as being of no value, but classical doesn't do everything and that's not a bad thing exactly.
Having said all that, that person is probably trolling or baiting
>>126889072not sure what this has to do with /classical/, maybe try >>>/mu/ instead?
>>126889104classical is mu
Etudes Tableuax by Rachmaninov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtObD71L8Ek&list=RDAtObD71L8Ek&start_radio=1&ab_channel=olla-vogala
Romantic SLOP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV_7nOxeFi4&list=RDAtObD71L8Ek&index=2&ab_channel=olla-vogala
>>126889072>classical does not have anything that rocks in the same way as this just for exampleWhat you posted is awful percussion slop. The rhythm present does not exceed some of the great classical pieces in sophistication. Besides there's nothing, not even 2 minutes in I turned that shit off.
When it comes to classical music - it is about balance. You can't have highly expressive dynamics, harmonies, complex rhythms and different instruments all at the same time with a monkey on percussion in background. It doesn't work in good music, something you wouldb't be aware of since you're neither a musician or classical listener.
Percussion is seldom used in classical music, mostly during climaxes or pivotal points in structure. And because of that it has MUCH greater effect than simply blasting it all the way through. It is not a weakness (or "not doing everything" in your own words), but a strength. Repetitiveness is inherently a weakness, because it induces monotony. A classical orchestral piece has more diversity in timbre than *any* given popslop on the other hand, it is as far from monotony as humanly possible, without losing coherence that is. So you're mistaken, classical music does everything, in moderation, and exactly how it's supposed to be. That is why it's considered to be of high phonoaesthetic value.
Emotional dishonesty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79XmMnCS_S4&list=RD79XmMnCS_S4&start_radio=1&ab_channel=ChessChess
>>126889735>Classical fan boys will dissmiss that as being of no value>Is snide about itYou responded exactly how i said you would. You don't need to be so defensive my guy, it was just a mild observation
>>126889920>popslop brainwashed half-monkey fails to grasp the concept of monotonyI am not surprised.
Nanga Parvat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9iVxMSlyJU&list=PLu6D2w79TomJd1NiCuWP7YZnyKPAS5Fjz&index=6&ab_channel=SergioC%C3%A1novas
>>126889954I guess you do have to be that defensive huh? Oh well
>>126884684 (OP)I thought we agreed to no AI slop
Mephisto Waltz no 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhj3yc8VQkQ&list=RDYhj3yc8VQkQ&start_radio=1&ab_channel=AndreiCristianAnghel
>>126884684 (OP)Best recording of Dvořák 9th?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOofzffyDSA
>>126890140>me and the voices in my mind agreed, don't you know that?
>>126890231Klemperer
Ancerl
Fricsay
Kubelik
>>126886336It annoys me that he actually did write some good music
>>126890267He wrote quite a bit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ukPsvh51hI
>>126884684 (OP)Need /mu/‘s opinion on this:
>>>/pol/509246847Could Detroit be saved if its children were taught classical music instead of rap?
>>126890339now it's once again the Paris of America
>>126890325No this is closer to standard Schoenberg trash
>>126890267I love Pelleas und Melisande https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wis4ku1XBNg
>>126888166>>126889954Classical music stimulates the mind, rather than the body. That's the best part about it.
>>126890240Thank you!
>>126890339> Could Detroit be saved if its children were taught classical music instead of rap?I'm fairly sure it's more about 95% of rap lyrics glorifying being a criminal, fucking sluts, shooting police, shooting other gangs and doing drugs, rather than deficiency of rap itself as a music.
Dvorak's symphonies > Brahms' symphonies
>>126890267i like most of the atonal and pre-atonal stuff
the serial stuff can be selectively good, like his Piano Concerto or Moses und Aron, but it's a lot more variable
>>126890475In terms of quantity, yeah.
>>126890460>Classical music stimulates the mind, rather than the body.Then why do classical pianists autistically gyrate ejaculate noises while performing?
>>126890506The physical process of producing music is frankly irrelevant to me in any way except for the end result.
>>126890475They're great and a little overlooked outside the 9th but I wouldn't go that far.
Is Shajarian considered classical?
>>126890475For me its his Stabat Mater and Requiem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDNy4YuCxdk&list=RDuDNy4YuCxdk&start_radio=1&ab_channel=RogerWright
inb4 not sure what this has to do with /classical/
The Engulfed Cathedral
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEFuhWLenTA&list=RDmEFuhWLenTA&start_radio=1&ab_channel=adam28xx
Verdi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7vqTeS7CpI
Handel
https://youtu.be/-qDwz3JdD1c?si=lHdXEUPpq2FcGYLw
>>126884684 (OP)Kali ma
Kali ma
KALI MA!
Schubert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z00TDWqzmew
Wagner’s depiction of germanic mythology is campy/foppish.
>>126892503kill yourself faggot.
Wolf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxEtpAHis-8
>>126892629Wagner based Das Rheingold on a medieval german revision of the Völsunga saga. Wagner’s operas were the Marvel adaptations of the 19th century.
Bach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T40EH1BtJD8
Alan Hovanhiss Mihr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUbldHd6ESo&list=RDGUbldHd6ESo&start_radio=1&ab_channel=noochinator1
>>126892503This is why I can’t take Jews who refuse to listen to Wagner because of his supposed antisemitism seriously. Wagner is kitsch. He reduces Sigfried to a jackanapes prancing around in tights. If André Rieu joined the NSDAP, the same people would be kvetching about the aryan undertones of his concerts. KOEK.
>>126893903>sigfried um actually it’s Siegfried, sister
>>126890231Bernstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7YaiW6vmPk
now playing
start of Dvořák: Symphony No. 7 in D minor, Op. 70
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1X1jyuzREg&list=OLAK5uy_lYU2QnL2o4Aisf6tJyZ4K-eV8dOUzQMs4&index=27
start of Dvořák: Symphony No. 8 in G, Op. 88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXm_z8-Lev4&list=OLAK5uy_lYU2QnL2o4Aisf6tJyZ4K-eV8dOUzQMs4&index=30
start of Dvořák: Symphony No. 9 in E minor, Op. 95 "From the New World"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWDqy5PmBCA&list=OLAK5uy_lYU2QnL2o4Aisf6tJyZ4K-eV8dOUzQMs4&index=34
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lYU2QnL2o4Aisf6tJyZ4K-eV8dOUzQMs4
Einstein on Wagner:
>I admire [Wilhelm Richard] Wagner's inventiveness, but I see his lack of architectural structure as decadence. Moreover, to me his musical personality is indescribably offensive so that for the most part I can listen to him only with disgust.
But you did listen to him! KOEK!
Wagner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC6f8FbnVMQ
>>126894419I don't care. All these STEMlets never even wrote so much as a simple 4-part chorale so who are they to talk about "architectural structure" in music?
>>126894447Einstein could have been a professional violinisy.
> If I were not a physicist, I would probably be a musician. I often think in music. I live my daydreams in music. I see my life in terms of music.> When at seventeen, Einstein played Beethoven’s violin sonatas to a school examiner, the latter observed that the teenager’s playing “was remarkable and revealing of great insight.”
Recs for lesser known violin sonatas (or similar type works)? Need a break from the usual rotation of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, Schumann, Franck, Elgar, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Grieg, wonderful as these all are.
>>126894514Busoni's. Esoecially no.2.
![8147OL6r4-L._SL1500_[1]](/thumb/mu/1751164204962144.jpg)
now playing
start of Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 4 in A Minor, Op. 23
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5vOJxyVwqg&list=OLAK5uy_l0wYczPEXtRltyk9N6VdpvKBiNLA8kUR8&index=15
start of Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 5 in F Major, Op. 24 "Spring"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_7pUasdzqY&list=OLAK5uy_l0wYczPEXtRltyk9N6VdpvKBiNLA8kUR8&index=11
start of Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 6 in A Major, Op. 30, No. 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvh7aKhh54c&list=OLAK5uy_l0wYczPEXtRltyk9N6VdpvKBiNLA8kUR8&index=23
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l0wYczPEXtRltyk9N6VdpvKBiNLA8kUR8
>Beethoven: Violin Sonatas was Kavakos's debut recording on Decca Classics and was released in January 2013. "The unrivaled elegance and beauty of Leonidas Kavakos's sound would be reason enough to embark with him on a traversal of the complete Beethoven sonatas for violin and piano, but it's the probing musicianship he and the excellent pianist Enrico Pace bring to it that make the ride so thrilling. The conversations, arguments and flirtations between violin and piano that Beethoven writes into these sonatas are all rendered with spirit and impeccable taste." (The New York Times) The Strad described the album as "a masterly set that combines Beethovenian ferocity and gentleness..." Sony is proud to once again present this monumental release to the public.
>Often described as the violinists violinist, Der Tagesspiegel wrote that Kavakos has quite possibly the most beautiful violin tone imaginable.
>>126894683I thought so too, glad you agree :)
>>126887656Don't feel bad, any discussion is good discussion.
seeing my lawyer tomorrow to change my will. instead of playing Bach's Mass in B minor at my casket viewing, instead I want them to play Chopin's Nocturnes
>>126894926fuck off retard.
>>126894944Brahms' Requiem instead then?
>>126893903did you actually watch Siegfried because there's no way that's what you got from it
![81zmbmVfAqL._SL1400_[1]](/thumb/mu/1751454248180518.jpg)
now playing
start of Brahms: Rhapsodies, Op. 79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b76pK6FRGJc&list=OLAK5uy_kVYEG29P_GOFmM71eHcT5f5kwG3LOzueE&index=2
start of Brahms: 3 Intermezzi, Op. 117
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5Ao5cbSzq4&list=OLAK5uy_kVYEG29P_GOFmM71eHcT5f5kwG3LOzueE&index=4
start of Brahms: 6 Piano Pieces, Op. 118
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln24_E8HAr0&list=OLAK5uy_kVYEG29P_GOFmM71eHcT5f5kwG3LOzueE&index=7
start of Brahms: 4 Piano Pieces, Op. 119
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFnyRz-SVGw&list=OLAK5uy_kVYEG29P_GOFmM71eHcT5f5kwG3LOzueE&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kVYEG29P_GOFmM71eHcT5f5kwG3LOzueE
Shame this recording doesn't contain Op. 116. I also just added Lars Vogt's (RIP) recording of the same pieces sans the Rhapsodies, looking forward to checking that out and seeing how it compares. I'm listening to this one first because I'm on a Lupu kick after listening to his Schubert. One can't have too many recordings of Brahms' late piano works, or any of his music, for that matter.
I wish I had played the piano somewhat as a kid, so I would be better prepared for understanding classical music and what's actually going on in it as an adult. Oh well.
>>126894419Why are Jews always the advocates for form over expression? Hanslick, Schenker, Schoenberg, etc. and now Einstein. It's a strange pattern.
Grosvenor!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbjunBC0jEA&list=OLAK5uy_lOXn2GLtkt6rytn-M-YI6qOiZDQli-qtU&index=1
>>126896351it's their larger brains and intellectual capacity
>>126896648Intelligence certainly has something to do with it, but it can't be that alone, because it's not like Wagner or Debussy have any lack of intelligence. I think the reason why Jews tend to favour a more conservative, formalistic aesthetic in music is something to do with intelligence minus passion, or perhaps minus self-confidence. We all know Jews can be a little neurotic, a little insecure when it comes to expressing themselves, and so they naturally gravitate to a more impersonal and abstract musical conception when appreciating or composing. It's kind of like that meme notion about retards and geniuses having similar beliefs because the prior is motivated by his instincts and the latter returns to his instincts with his higher intelligence, but the midwit is disconnected from his instincts and only motivated by his intelligence. Hence why a composer like Wagner is simultaneously criticised for appealing to retards but there is also a long tradition of geniuses revering his music.
>>126896648Also a midwit like Hanslick obviously did not have a larger brain, kek.
>>126896351Because expressive music can promote antisemitism.
>>126896063Never too late to start. I'm 30+ and started taking lessons earlier this year, it's a lot of fun.
>>126884684 (OP)>Liszt made an attempt to downplay the event, but eventually gave up and left the party, saying to Clara as he departed “Tell your husband that there is only one man from whom I would so calmly accept words such has he has just said to me."I don't get it, did he mean Schumann or someone else.
>>126896351the whole premise of your question is wrong.
a.) Jews aren't that bright. Their IQ is actually around 95 and their only country, the glorified military base of Israel, requires US funding to stay afloat.
>but some study with questionable sources said their average IQ is 115!I don't care. It's 95.
b.) as a Romantic, Schoenberg (whose textbooks and essays you should read before posting on /classical/) saw form and expression as two sides of the same coin. Once again, you're barking up the wrong tree and being antisemitic for the wrong reasons.
>>126896814the ability to spew verbal diarrhea does not make you intelligent.
>>126897141I never said Jews are on average higher iq. Don't know why you're responding to that.
>Schoenberg (whose textbooks and essays you should read before posting on /classical/) saw form and expression as two sides of the same coinYou're confused by terminology. Most people will say form and expression are 'two sides of the same coin', but for one person that could be used to justify Shenkerian analysis and for another it could be used to reject it. Suffice it to say, Schoenberg's dodecaphony is completely opposed to Romantic aesthetics. And I'm not even being Antisemitic, I never said all Jews conform to this pattern and I never said it was a bad thing.
>>126897152If you think that's 'verbal diarrhea' then you're extremely low iq. You can disagree with what I'm saying, but there's nothing incoherent or far fetched about how I'm saying it.
>>126897227>Schoenberg's dodecaphony is completely opposed to Romantic aestheticsincorrect
>>126897141Israel is a nation of Mizrahi mutts. The highly intelligent historical Jews were all Ashkenazi or Sephardic (Einstein had some Sephardic ancestry ).
>>126897270He's retarded. what he said but Wagner can also be said about Mozart.
subjecting people to music at funerals is the worst thing you can do
>>126897332unless it's John Cage. 4"33 slaps fr fr.
>>126897270You're defending an indefensibly stupid position, that's why you have no argument. The last of the Romantics, like Strauss and Pfitzner, opposed Dodecaphony because it's a fundamental break from Romanticism. And Wagner and Brahms would have had the same opinion of it. I'm not saying Dodecaphony is bad, but you could not find a type of music more antagonistic to the fundamental ethos of Romanticism.
>>126897295>what he said but Wagner can also be said about Mozart.Of course it could, but to a lesser degree, because whether it's Hanslick or it's Schenker, Conservative types do not accuse Mozart of sacrificing form for the sake of expression. Are you just going to pretend the latter critiques don't exist?
Bach
https://youtu.be/lcMhm4aaSbc
Very fun idea for an arrangement, a bit dry of a performance but well played overall.
>>126897611Pretty good. Technically it is HIP because the accordion is essentially a handheld organ.
>>126897611Has there been any major composer that wrote an accordion sonata?
>>126898381Lmao. You could probably make the argument that a romantic orchestra is HIP
>>126894514https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al4Lvun1WNM
guys i play a clarinet and I need some cool solos to play
>>126898842Mozart clarinet concerto, brahms, bach transcribed
>>126897141>a.) Jews aren't that bright. Their IQ iactually around 95 >Yet they control the world and have dominated white people maybe for centuries(depends who you ask on this) >this isn’t ackshually a paradox because white are just too heckin nice and get tricked by their goblinish ways This is what Nazis actually believe
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H47ow4_Cmk0&pp=ygUUdGlkdXMgbGF1Z2hpbmcgc2NlbmU%3D
>>126899007most Nazis i've seen (not saying i agree) say Jews are highly intelligent but soulless/evil.
>>126899036Not here they don’t. That is the obvious conclusion. From what I’ve seen Askanazis have the highest average IQ, it’s fairly clear that they’re a very high achieving people- Jews themselves don’t like to talk about or believe in genetic IQ for obvious reasons. But I see plenty of people saying they aren’t intelligent at all here. In a way it’s kind of funny - it’s like you hate someone so much you can’t even concede any good points to them even one that advances your own argument. Someone you hate punches you in the face and breaks your jaw out of alignment for weeks and you can’t eat solids but you hate them so much you can’t even say it was a good punch- it was a terrible girly punch and you just have a rare bone condition that causes slippage but only if you’re hit in exactly the right spot etc
>>126899036>>126899007>>126897141>>126897227>>126897270>>126897386>>126899119Are we really gonna have this retarded racial argument about Jews every single thread? Judaism and the culture around it is bad, there is no secret ooze in Jewish genes that make them horrible evil masterminds ready to take your foreskin. A Jew like any other human can be cool or a cunt. Right now in the upper echelons of society there definitely is a lot of nepotism, in-group preference and an overrepresentation of Jews within government institutions. That's due to how this culture developed and the specific values that were passed down within this group of people, not due to their race. I think this entire discussion is just mindless and embarrassing. Especially because most of the people hating on Jews here would 100% agree with the talmud if you switched "jew" with "aryan" and "goy" with "non-white".
Either way, we're in a /classical/ thread. Discuss classical music for crying out loud, if you really want to have petty IQ measuring contests: Discuss it somewhere where it's relevant, not in this thread.
Bruckner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnMpN-mUm8Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU-vU12tP6Q
>>126899237>Right now in the upper echelons of society there definitely is a lot of nepotism, in-group preference and an overrepresentation of Jews within government institutionsNothing to do with intelligence, ability or talent though?
>>126899237No one wants to hear it but this crap where a couple anons restart the same shitty argument every single thread is what sisterposting was started to prevent back in 2022 or so.
Bach
https://youtu.be/UvfoPx4eL_s
>>126899237oh so you don't want to hear about JEWS? you don't like hearing about JEWISH BLOOD LIBEL? WHAT ARE YOU ANTISEMITIC? fuck you racist.
>>126899286>Nothing to do with intelligence, ability or talent though?Any race with a decent average IQ that happened to have the same positions as the Jews could have gotten into that situation if they played their cards correctly and didn't fuck up.
>>126899286No. It has to do with ethnocentrism and culture, not intelligence.
>>126899036>>126899119It is 100% factually incorrect to claim that jews have higher intelligence than average
>>126899287People are having heckin discussions that I DON't LIKE??!! NO better start sperging out and shitting and pissing myself on the floor!!
>>126899354>>126899357thank you wignatsister
>>126899361thank you schizosister
>>126899357So they have a superior culture to white then? Is that what you're saying?
>>126899383If by superior you mean parasitic, then perhaps.
>>126899354Sounds like an argument for DEI
>>126899374>>126899383Cope which was debunked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stLCurXu0fc
>>126899431Thank you brother
>>126896351That seems to me to be a pretty standard complaint from classical fan
>>126899431I'm not watching half an hour of an alt right youtuber reading studies he doesn't understand. We'll meet in the middle and say Jewish are superior at the only skill that really matters-dominating other races
>>126896351>>126894419I can never relate to this arguments cause I'm just always a why not both guy. Though I personally tend to prefer the more structured stuff, I feel like if you can't appreciate relatively formless stuff it's cause you haven't put in the time to appreciate it. But maybe in the time before recordings it wasn't worth it to put time into stuff that doesn't immediately suit your proclivities so these preferences were more meaningful.
>>126899393Just about every Jew I know made their kids grow up playing the piano and violin and they all have at least a moderate education in music composition and history
Meanwhile whitey gets taught football and McDonalds education
>>126899976Whats a Mcdonald's education?
>>126899976You can even see this when you drill down into whitey. I have a big family (white) with lots of uncles/aunts and cousins and the libtarded ones all have fashy praxis. Le farmer's market fascism heirloom tomatoes in the front yard of the all white neighborhood type stuff, still able to run marathons deep into their 60s (one even did a triathlon), while all the Trumpers in my family are fat and have more vulgar tastes and have brown friends etc.
>>126899891Concession accepted.
>reading studies he doesn't understandDon't project now, lil guy.
>>126899976>playing the piano and violinThat's fairly common in European and East Asian families too, especially upper middle class. You do realize a subjective observation is full of bias and means little, right?
>>126900098Concession accepted, sister.
>>126900113thank you wignatsister
>>126900069I'm just saying my guy you could have linked to actual academic studies not a fucking Youtuber lol
>>126900215thank you wignatsister
So about music..personally? I'm a fan
>>126900188Concession accepted, sister.
He's showing and discussing actual academic studies for brainlets like you who can't read it themselves. Cope and seethe.
>>126900264thank you wignatsister
>>126900188 >>126900269Concession accepted, sister.
>>126900202He's showing and discussing actual academic studies for brainlets like you who can't read it themselves. Cope and seethe.
In Meistersinger's harmonies, one hears the echoes of Bach's intricate counterpoint, as if the ghostly specter of the Baroque master had momentarily forsaken the organ in favor of the opera house.
Richard Wagner once said of Johann Sebastian Bach’s music: “That made me what I am. My unending melody is predestined in it.” In Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, Wagner demonstrated to post-Tristan sceptics his mastery of traditional musical forms. Sonorous chorales, an overture which Wagner described as 'applied Bach', a fugally-inspired toccata, an unforgettable quintet and counterpoint worthy of Bach all feature in this magnificent score celebrating the marriage of inspiration and tradition.
The whole of Die Meistersinger— shaping itself before our very ears — is Wagner's answer to his critics, a song offered them to meet their specifications, filled with all the things they demanded and found wanting in his other work: diatonic structures, counterpoint, singable tunes, ensembles, folk dances worthy of Weber and chorales worthy of Bach.
>>126900276thank you wignatsister
I am in a world, where I am taking a stroll in a beautiful park built by the divine, suddenly my legs feel tired and request to stop. Cordially I went on ahead to sit under the shade of a chestnut tree. My fatigue washes away from me as I slip into my imaginative daydreaming, I can hear the melancholic chirping of the sparrows and the water flowing from the creeks, feel the gust of a chilly wind approaching my face, smell the rejuvenating fragrance of the good earth. But then I realize I was just listening to the start of Lohengrin. I a poor soul, venerate the gods for creating such beauty and allowing an inferior soul like me to experience it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG53S27HI5k
The Holy Grail... Amazing how I am beset by these medieval visions when I listen to the mythic compositions of Wagner, Master of Music and Poetry. I am fighting alongside Richard the Lionheart and drinking wine with the Knights of the Round Table... I hear the call of the Black Forest, the rustle of trees, the scream of the eagle, the clatter of steel... Truer than the truth, the Spirit of Western Man is animated towards infinity in the most epic of legendary music. We are going to make it bros.
https://youtu.be/a53s4jyCqqU
At times like these I think of the Master of Music and Poetry in whose name this general was consecrated. Wagner would not have allowed his discord kittens to grow so unruly. With his integral and organic conception of the artwork he would, while paying the respect due to those composers out of whose genius was formed these pristine instruments of musical understanding, recognize these matters as beneath the dignity of the true artist for whom they are but tools of his unified expression. Come, let us embrace one another as sisters and retreat to the seraglio to repose in profound meditation upon the works of the Master.
https://youtu.be/yF0pwSC7qWg
>>126900276>He's showing and discussing actual academic studies for brainlets... who can't read it themselves.My guy you were the guy who watched it and linked it ROFL
>>126900369>guy who watched it Did I? I linked, I never said I watched it. LOL.
>>126900295Concession accepted, sister.
>>126900369>>126900426thank you wignatsisters
now playing
start of Peterson-Berger: Symphony No. 3 in F Minor "Same Ätnam"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBpnlRXsMVw&list=OLAK5uy_kMcLVkXTGdhV4jX-OwctouorJpMHLabME&index=1
start of Peterson-Berger: Earina Suite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cVoApb54tA&list=OLAK5uy_kMcLVkXTGdhV4jX-OwctouorJpMHLabME&index=5
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kMcLVkXTGdhV4jX-OwctouorJpMHLabME
>>126900426So for all you know it doesn't debunk anything then? Good to know
>>126900507It does, you absolute retarded cunt. He's showing studies. No, I did not need to watch the video, everything cited is in the description. You could put all this time into watching the video if you were honest. You're a trolling bitchfaggot
>>126900433Concession accepted yet again!
>>126900507thank you wignatsisters
>>126900542I accept your concession seething sister
>>126900555fuck you said plural sisters to one post, first mistake I've ever seen you make unless you're an imitator
>>126900542thank you wignatsister
Gidon Kremer, y/n?
Also why do so many sites use this .webp garbage, forcing me to screencap the pic instead of being able to directly paste it into the 'selected file' field here on 4chan? so annoying
>>126900585He's done good stuff. I like his Schnittke.
>>126900603thank you wignatsister
>>126900568>first mistake I've ever seen you make unless you're an imitatorThe real one is too busy working as an intern at DG China
>>126900615I accept your concession sister
>>126900654thank you wignatsister
>>126900660I accept your concession sister
>>126900670thank you wignatsister
>>126900675I accept your concession sister
>>126900709thank you wignatsister
>>126900715I accept your concession sister
>>126900726thank you wignatsister
so now that the dust has settled, what's the best recording of Chopin's Piano Sonata no. 2 and 3?
also this album cover makes me feel physically ill, yuck
>>126900744o forgot the blurb
>Chopin's Second Piano Sonata is one of the most powerful and terrifying pieces of music written in the 19th century. Its funeral march is already famous (you know the tune, even if you don't know that you know it), but what makes the piece so extraordinary is its finale--a 90-second ride through hell that has been described as "the sound of the wind sweeping over a graveyard." Next to this expressionist masterpiece, the Third Sonata sounds rather more conventional, but in Murray Perahia's capable hands, it's no less compelling. A true keyboard poet, Perahia has turned in performances of both sonatas that have long stood as among the finest available. --David HurwitzA true keyboard poet. Maybe I should be listening to more Perahia.
>>126900735I accept your concession sister
>>126900759Don't care about Chopin much but I like Perahia. Good Mozart, Mendelssohn, Schumann.
why classical music is so melancholic? rarely I hear upbeat classical songs.
>>126900763thank you wignatsister
>>126900790I accept your concession sister
>>126900800thank you wignatsister
>>126900778The same reason most 'serious' or art films are dramas and tragedies, I suppose.
Anyway, there's plenty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-68BMs2c1c
Lots of Mozart is happy and upbeat and positive, including many of piano concertos and string quartets and symphonies. Beethoven. Schubert. You're right as you get into the romantic era the ratio begins to tilt quite a bit but there's still joyful stuff there.
Wagner's music is so confrontational. Even in his photographs his gaze is so penetrative. You just know from the first notes he's ready to ravish you. No composer comes at you with more force and leaves you begging for more. Just brutal. He keeps going and going until the flower of womanhood blossoms within your bud. If he were around today he would be the biggest Alpha in the My Little Pony fandom.
>>126900778I often ask the opposite, why is classical so rarely melancholic, especially pre-romantic era.
Listen to any Beethoven symphony, you can't possibly tell me any of it is melancholic. Sure, there are some movements like the funeral march of 3rd or II of 7th, but it is always upbeat, joyous, heroic and dramatic
>>126900812I accept your concession sister
>>126900844thank you wignatsister
For me, it's the Alban Berg Quartet (ABQ [Aye-Bee-Cue])
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihvr6zSL1XE&list=OLAK5uy_k97p7mWR10dlF4SNSbqzftbb7s-x1XbSg&index=17
>>126900778More jovial music.
>>126900863Prefer Hagen or Quartetto Italiano for Mozart.
>>126900849I accept your concession sister
>>126900886thank you wignatsister
>>126900894I accept your concession sister
>>126900876Love the Italiano set. Haven't heard the Hagen.
>>126900901thank you wignatsister
>>126900899It's what you feel when listening to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YTkw06FpyM
>>126900912I accept your concession sister
>>126900925thank you wignatsister
>>126900933I accept your concession sister
>>126900945thank you wignatsister
>>126900955I accept your concession sister
>>126900964thank you wignatsister
My friend's sister works at the movie theatre. She's my favorite concession sister.
>>126900967I accept your concession sister
>>126900981thank you wignatsister
>>126900990I accept your concession sister
>>126901000thank you wignatsister
>>126900970:O why? What's that thing they say? That the cello is the instrument that most closely imitates the human voice? How can you hate it
>>126901004I accept your concession sister
>>126901016thank you wignatsister
>>126901013>That the cello is the instrument that most closely imitates the human voiceWhoever said that has not heard a human voice
>>126901022I accept your concession sister
>Jews aren't smarter than gentiles in fact they're dumber. But they're overrrated in the most powerful postions and control white because....because they just do OK?!
Maybe Jews found a cheat code
>>126900098>>126900098>(an) hero marches on in her full glory, and in honor of sistershitter thou shalt bring about the decline of this general once more!HEILS SISTER! THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. GLORY TO THE SPAM. DEATH TO /CLASSICAL/!
>>126901041thank you wignatsister
>>126901059I accept your concession sister
>>126901067thank you wignatsister
what is Wagner's best non-opera work?
>>126901080I accept your concession sister
>>126901082An excellent question wagner sister
>>126901086thank you wignatsister
>>126901082Siegfried Idyll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDGo8wytUEA&list=OLAK5uy_nlsbOzH2Oa-FQeSTLeVtypFdRQthmagPI&index=1
>>126900778You must be listening to a particular niche of composers
lots of superior western culture itt
>>126901092I accept your concession sister
>>126901093Thank you Wagner sister
>>126901106thank you wignatsister
>>126901114I accept your concession sister
What's an appropriate amount of composers to be able to name? I think I could just about do over 50, not sure exactly how many I could name though
>>126900098>>126901055>AND ONCE THE ENEMY IS DEFEAT, I SWEAR WE WILL RID THIS WORLD OF WIGNATSISTER. ONCE. AND. FOR. AAAAAAALLL. I PINKY SWEAR!
Tragic that sisterposter disappeared at the exact time a poster arrived even more annoying than the OG Wagnerite that sisterposting initially arose to combat.
>WE MUST SPAM AND SPAM AND SPAM AND SPAM
>SISTERSHITTER WAS RIGHT TO SPAM WE MUST SPAM
>WE MUST ASSUME HER ROLE TO SPAM AND SPAM AND SPAM AND....
>>126901127thank you wignatsister
>>126901168I accept your concession sister
>>126901174thank you wignatsister
>>126901013Just listen to this and you'll understand
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5Ef8hMXEg&list=RD4l5Ef8hMXEg&start_radio=1
>>126901182I accept your concession sister
>>12690113350 huh? Hmm. Now I'm wondering if I can name 50. That sounds like a lot but maybe it's not so much. My knowledge of Baroque and Renaissance composers is lacking so that's probably why, you can get a good 15-20 just from that if you're familiar with those eras, which I am not.
>>126901196thank you wignatsister
>>126901133do you consider whether coming across as autistic is appropriate or not?
>>126901207The /metal/ tourist drowning the general in a soup of Rachmaninoff and arguments about atheism and intelligence research for the past few months.
>WE MUST SPAM AND SPAM AND SPAM
>SURELY WE WILL DEFEAT OUR ENEMY AND KEEP /CLASSICAL/ TO OURSELF
>my precious...
>WIGNAT!!! WIGNAT!!!
>>126901204An excellent question sister
>>126901200I accept your concession sister
>>126901226thank you wignatsister
>>126899237But my posts were just about Jewish culture. I never said Jews dislike Wagner because they're genetically predisposed to it.
>>126901215> a soup of Rachmaninoff Sounds tasty.
That person has been here for a while though and while the sisternigger was here
>>126901234I accept your concession sister
>>126901238I' don't know if they neccessarily dislike him. Seem's like there's some issue where some do indeed like him but don't like him for being antisemetic
>>126901242Yes, but they're still a newfaggot by general standards and it's clearly got worse without sisterposter drawing aggro.
>>126901251thank you wignatsister
>>126901255It clearly got better in every single way imaginable except some warrior wannabe taking his place
Bieber Passacaglia in G minor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2h8yhU1_Ls&list=RDV2h8yhU1_Ls&start_radio=1
>>126901271Sorry didn't realise I was talking to a retard. I rest my case.
>>126901270I accept your concession sister
>>126901288thank you wignatsister
>>126901285>talking to a retard>this is coming from the spammerOh the irony.
>>126901303I accept your concession sister
>>126901325thank you wignatsister
>>126901349I accept your concession sister
>>126901376>troll editionfuck off
>>126901381Uhm sister I thought you said you liked the way classical was now?
>>126901252I was just referring to the strong cultural faction of Jews who dislike Wagner on aesthetic grounds. It's too common to just be a coincidence, but not so common to dominate Jewish culture, which, as you say, tends more to reject Wagner's music for his politics than anything else.
>>126901376I will not be posting in that one
>inb4 jannies clean up the mess
>new troll OP gets deleted
>multiple permanent bans
>>126901376You are the worst trash that ever visited this general. Worse than sisternigger and that's saying something.
>>126901456>Worse than sisterniggerFactually wrong
>>126901463At least sisternigger had 1 in 1000 posts that was an interesting perspective from academia. But yeah, I'm pushing.
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