Thread 128219675

Mozart violin sonatas edition

https://youtu.be/fgmdiWkjX-A

This thread is for the discussion of music in the Western (European) classical tradition, as well as classical instrument-playing.

>How do I get into classical?
This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:
https://rentry.org/classicalgen

Previous: >>128193068

>>128219675 (OP)
Early thread

>>128219675 (OP)
Went to Copland 3rd yesterday. It was pretty good, I especially liked Trumpet and Bass clarinet parts. What's the best recording?

Russians create the most dark and brooding music ever, and are like "this piece is supposed to represent happiness and optimism"

>>128219833
>What's the best recording?
You just heard it. The best recording is always hearing it live

>>128219879
Harsh winter conditions will do that to a society, it's not like

>>128219879
kek. Love 'em.
I like that Rach 2nd concerto was written after a major depression and dedicated to his psychiatrist. Is there a piece as genuinely and honestly depressing as the 1st movement of the concerto?

What are some good tonal german composers after mahler?

>>128219536
Boring bullshit

>>128220000
Hindemith

>>128219899
Well, sure, but now I want to listen to it again. Also I had a bad seat for it - I bought first row tickets because there was also Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto No. 2 on the agenda, so I was sitting as close to soloist as possible. That was great, but the seat was not very suitable for the symphony.

>>128219879
> this piece is supposed to represent happiness and optimism
Which pieces? Lots of Russian Romanticism is dark and brooding yes, but it's usually advertised as such.

>>128219935
It's more like ideas of "all good thing come to an end" / "it will get worse" / "a person cannot defy their fate" are very central to Russian culture. Tchaikovsky 6 is probably the most obvious example where a lot of melodies start if not cheery, than at least not too gloomy, but inevitably end in death or despair.

>>128219833
All of them, they’re all equally good

I still think no one was as melodically inspired when composing a single piece of work as Rach when he composed the 2nd concerto. He melodic shapes, progression and structure, textures, accompaniment, orchestration - it all sounds literally perfect. Maybe it's just my mind that's hardwired to like the specific kind of emotions associated with it, and there is some bias to my judgement. I just listened to it and I haven't felt better in weeks. It's the most depressing and at the same time uplifting piece for me. Maybe I'm just really autistic.

>>128220253
>Maybe I'm just really autistic.
>in love with one of the most emotional and romantic pieces in all the repertoire
Anon, I...

But yes, there's no denying it's one of those moments of divine artistic creation, where the artist is completely in their element.

>>128220253
so true slaveslopper

>>128220045
Thanks, I'll check him out. Any others?

Main reason why I'm asking was just because I listened to Schoenberg's orchestration for Brahms' piano quartet, loved the big orchestra with all the bells and whistles (literally and figurateively) and I just thought "Man, I realize that I know basically no tonal composers of this era" and wanted to hear more big orchestra works

>>128220253
>He melodic shapes, progression and structure, textures, accompaniment, orchestration
Talking like a cartoon Native

Mozart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfG-LVZxWIA

>>128220045
He wasn't tonal

>>128220266
I don't know how those two contradict each other desu, you keep saying that but I've never read anything like that about autism. Autists don't feel less emotions, they are bad at telling emotions of other people, that has nothing to do with music

>>128220290
Just check Neoromanticism.

Thoughts on this?

>>128220336
??

one could do a lifetime of exploring recordings of Bach's Cello Suites and Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin, there's hundreds of each

>>128220499
oh and same with the Goldberg Variations. It's impressive to create such seminal, universal, ad eternal works of the repertoire

The 12 Greatest Composers Who Were NOT The Greatest Melodists

J.S. Bach
Haydn
Beethoven
Schumann
Mendelssohn
Liszt
Brahms
Bruckner
Mahler
Stravinsky
Janáček
Shostakovich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8s57aIeymo

Well?

>>128220515
Mendelssohn has the violin concerto, c'mon.

>>128220515
Half of these are really quite stupid.

>>128220499
I think the CIA uses that to break prisoners

>>128220578
Which half?

Captcha D00MY

>>128220674
>>128220674
hehe

>>128220515
>you may like them but that doesn’t make it true
>I’m being objective
I’m out. After reading his bio I was approaching with an open mind, but it’s his opinions dressed as truths.

now playing

start of JS Bach: Suite 1, BWV 1007
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TsdhXBMcSY&list=OLAK5uy_msEHafke5L4uJ0hqTOczzOZ5LPDbLjbzQ&index=2

start of JS Bach: Suite 2, BWV 1008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zDRhXrz06s&list=OLAK5uy_msEHafke5L4uJ0hqTOczzOZ5LPDbLjbzQ&index=8

start of JS Bach: Suite 6, BWV 1012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiW14GAzUzQ&list=OLAK5uy_msEHafke5L4uJ0hqTOczzOZ5LPDbLjbzQ&index=13

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_msEHafke5L4uJ0hqTOczzOZ5LPDbLjbzQ

An exciting, exuberant cycle. One best suited for daytime.

>>128220721
Ever fuck with Jean-Guihen Queyras’s cello suite recordings?

>>128220515
Which Janacek piece has the best not the greatest melody?

>>128220757
Absolutely! His are fantastic too. Both of his also fall under the "exciting, exuberant" and "best suited for daytime" descriptions. Consider his the masculine side of the coin to Gaillard's feminine Bach in that first cycle of hers (her second cycle is much more mellow, meditative, and introverted).

>>128220693
They're always, that sounds legitmately hellish to me. The Goldberg variations wouldn't be so bad, although it would quickly get boring listening the same piece over and over again

>>128220787
I get what you mean, when I first tried listening to them, I thought they sounded way too harsh, severe, dry, even academic. The entire time I kept wishing they sounded more like Beethoven or Brahms, with the softer, more expressive tones of the romantic classical I was familiar with, and that they simply weren't for me. But I kept revisiting them periodically, and over time they eventually clicked, and now I recognize them for the brilliant musical masterpieces they are.

The Goldberg Variations was love at first listen, that's a work that's appealing to everyone I think.

>although it would quickly get boring listening the same piece over and over again
That's kinda the domain of classical. This isn't like modern pop/rock/hiphop genres where you get heaping multitudes of new albums every year.

Lute Suite E minor Sarabande
https://youtu.be/gOEL1UGRlzE?si=ifDoaFoC5TlvVEdh

>>128220787
>>128220820
I wanna note that every time I'd revisit them, I'd try with a different recording, and this allowed me to hear the pieces in a wide variety of colors, not to mention find performances which were more amenable to my tastes. That's what I'd recommend doing if you ever feel like trying them again in the future.

Wand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFb6z9EpcUc&list=OLAK5uy_mms0LNuKLnC1K66384Q_zbdw_S-JhvgXI&index=5

>>128220779
I like your taste, anon

>>128220886
Thank you, and likewise :)

Berglund!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3lHIEMkyHo&list=OLAK5uy_mKPFSgABjGBtWQ6ZgtLbdF_71AIthG4W0&index=12

Rate my drip bros

Also I heard Bartok's 6 String Quartets for the first time and realised how much I've been sleeping on him since it basically sounds like proto Vienese School shit

>>128220775
maybe the andantino from "in the mists"
https://youtu.be/gFCpQIsMJmM?si=EJndRmt42qb4Nw2D

or the ballada from the violin sonata
https://youtu.be/Mc1jsqRGJo8?si=so0Z0bSV57t9HH6A

>>128220820
Brahms is just as bad


> This isn't like modern pop/rock/hiphop genres where you get heaping multitudes of new albums every year.
But there is classical still being made and in the past there’s 100s of composers with 100s of pieces

>>128221102
I think maybe it would be better without the staves
But Schoenberg has a very striking iconic look. It’s really cool y til you remember he’s Schoenberg

Standard repertoire alone is big and diverse enough for a lifetime, but lifetime isn't enough for them.

>>128221102
4, 5, and 6 are fucking awesome. Thanks for reminding me of them.

>>128220837
Lute is lowkey the goated instrument after viol in the baroque
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCt1lF4kZ-o&list=RDiCt1lF4kZ-o&start_radio=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OAZukcPeCI&list=RD2OAZukcPeCI&start_radio=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENBj8_X34MQ&list=RDENBj8_X34MQ&start_radio=1

>>128221332
What about the viola de gamba?

>>128221387
Viol and Viola da Gamba are the same thing

>>128221420
I looked up Viol and the first result was for a 24/7 rape and sexual assault helpline

>>128221446
Well it does have its roots in the Arab world and North Africa, so its does make sense

now playing

Rachmaninoff: Symphony No. 2 in E Minor, Op. 27: III. Adagio (Transcr. Trifonov for 2 Pianos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yumXgK72CEQ&list=OLAK5uy_l02KaxRhw0K6vrm3eNvASng5WGiyS98do&index=2

start of Rachmaninoff: Suite No. 2 for 2 Pianos, Op. 17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOCOALeujc&list=OLAK5uy_l02KaxRhw0K6vrm3eNvASng5WGiyS98do&index=3

start of Rachmaninoff: Suite No. 1 for 2 Pianos, Op. 5 "Fantaisie-tableaux"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWZRGk3-KHk&list=OLAK5uy_l02KaxRhw0K6vrm3eNvASng5WGiyS98do&index=7

start of Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances, Op. 45 (Version for 2 Pianos)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw1ib9gUApI&list=OLAK5uy_l02KaxRhw0K6vrm3eNvASng5WGiyS98do&index=10

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l02KaxRhw0K6vrm3eNvASng5WGiyS98do

>>128221536
Any thoughts on this recording, RachAnon/ChoFan?

Any thoughts on this recording, RachAnon/ChoFan?
>>128221536

>>128220000
Schreker, Zemlinsky, Schmidt, Pfitzner, Marx, the list goes on.

Wagner was Mozart's successor.

>In the last years of his life Wagner liked to call himself the 'last Mozartian'. He played Brünnhilde's E major passage from the last act of Die Walküre, 'Der diese Liebe mir ins Herz gelegt', and lamented the general failure to appreciate his sense of beauty which, he believed, made him 'Mozart's successor'.

>>128220000
seconding Schkreker, Zeminsky, and Franz Schmidt >>128221620

This may be a myopic, momentary opinion I'll come to regret later, as sometimes happens when I get overly excited about a recording and/or piece I'm listening to, but:
Listening to Bolet's and Arrau's recordings of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes really demonstrates just how poorly other pianists, particularly modern ones, play the work. Or at least not to my taste. Too often it's all virtuoso showmanship and no poetry and emotion. You don't ever get the sense Bolet and Arrau are trying to show off, whereas with lots of modern pianists, that seems to be their primary concern -- or if not that, rather, it seems they're too in love with their technique, that's a better way of putting it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne9Jg06F95o&list=OLAK5uy_kWu_YDCuSf5eMVT3eo-e9rnD_CagDdd40&index=4

>>128221536
>>128221617
Never listened to piano arrangement of thes, nice.
To say anything substantial about it I'd need something for reference. Sounds pretty good so far though. Not a big fan of Trifonov, but he's not bad by any means. It does take away a bit of the magic there imo, the string swells give that adagio its character that's missing here, since piano is a percussion instrument. Have you listened to Bruckner's 7ths adagio for piano? That was really good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zVQvvvX9pU

>>128220515
is this retard (the Anon, not Hurwitz) ever gonna off himself?

>>128221795
They're posting classical content, chill the fuck out. I appreciate their posts if anything, helps generate some discussion.

>>128221772
I hadn't heard that before. Listening now but just from the first few minutes I can tell it's lovely. Which is no surprise, since the Adagio is one of the most divine pieces of classical music ever written!

>>128220515
Reasonable enough. Off the top of my head, don't find myself humming to any of these composers.

>>128220715
You should've listened to what he said right after that, dummy.
And yeah he's being objective. The quality of the "melody" is determined by its singable, catabile quality. For example, Beethoven was not a good melodist, not because he couldn't write good melodies, but because he chose to write small, unremakable, catchy motifs to properly develop them instead. It's harder to develop long, bel canto melodies and Chopin, Schubert, Tchaikovsky had their own unique approach to that.

>Today I will remind them

BAB
A
B

>DAILY REMINDER
>DAILY REMINDER

IAA
A
A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyWOIKCtjiw&list=RDKyWOIKCtjiw&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLugJIWdpCM&list=RDtLugJIWdpCM&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-utT-BD0obk&list=RD-utT-BD0obk&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxx7Stpx7bU&list=RDcxx7Stpx7bU&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCoOqsxLxSo&list=RDkCoOqsxLxSo&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgjwiadze1w&list=RDSgjwiadze1w&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ44z_ZqzXk&list=RDOQ44z_ZqzXk&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGyBRbbHpno&list=RDpGyBRbbHpno&start_radio=1 [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed] [Embed]

>average BABIAA listener

We will disarm and subdue every 18th-19th century heretic that would put on a Mozart Piano concerto or Chopin Nocturne

We are the Mockers of Mozart
We put a chokehold on classicism

We are the Cuckolders of Chopin
We are the Rapists of Romantics

We are the murderers of Mahler
We strike fear in every pretentious and neurotic writer of 1 hour symphonies

>Listening to Bach
>not listening to Mozart
>Listening to Marais
>Not listening to Haydn
>Listening to Ravel
>not listening to Mahler
>listening to Stravinsky
>not listening to Schoenberg or Shostakovich

Is there a better feeling in this world?

>Your Romanticism
>My Foot
>Your Classicism
>My Fist

I will crush the Mozart enjoyers, and liberate the Chopin listeners with Vivaldi, Josquin, and Perotin

>Bach
>Machaut
>Ives
>Marais
>Buxtehude
>Stravinsky
>Reich
>Bartok

No Mozart, No Brahms, No Haydn, No Mahler
No Autistic Teutonic spirit shall oppress or taint the Gallic, Latin, and Slavic soul

>>128221828
>since the Adagio is one of the most divine pieces of classical music ever written!
I agree. I love how the chromaticism and counterpoint intensifies in each reprise of the first theme, and every line makes perfect melodic sense, it's not added just for the sake of counterpoint, which is IMO unique. Something truly inspired Bruckner there, they say it's Wagner's death.

Mozart gives me the ick,

As does Brahms, Mahler, early-middle Beethoven, Bruckner, Chopin, Schumann, Strauss II, Hindemith, Schoenberg, Reger, Berg, Tchaikovsky, Boulez, Stockhausen, Haydn, Bruch, Salieri, Shostakovich, Clementi, and Prokofiev

That is all

Stop flooding archives and making it harder to search for composers fucking imbecile.

>when they listen to Mozart and Haydn concertos and completely neglect the Sun Kings court
>When they listen to vocal works by Verdi, Rossini or Puccini, but not Palestrina or the Franco-Flemish School
>When they don't listen to Marin Marais more frequently than Beethoven or Brahms
>No Perotin or Medieval Music

>>128221940
>Is there a better feeling in this world?
Scriabi's Diner

>If it ain't BAROQUE, don't fix it
>I dumped her because she BAROQUED my heart
>I had to go to the doctor because I BAROQUED my leg in a gondola accident
>I would go to the concerto with you, but I'm BAROQUE
>The Baroque BAROQUED the renaissance mold

Remember not all Romantics are bad but all bad composers do tend be Romantic, except for Classical, all Classical composers are shit
Below is a list of acceptable Romantics:

>Field
>Chabrier
>Franck
>Tarrega
>Wagner*
>Any of the Russian 5
>Grieg
>Alkan
>Late Beethoven

NO MOZART
NO CHOPIN
NO MAHLER
ALL ROMANTICS SCRAM!

ALL CLASSICISTS EAT SHIT AND DIE
THIS THREAD IS FOR MARIN MARAIS!

SONATA FORM SHOULD DIE
ONLY CONCERTO GROSSO FOR I!

HAYDN IS LIKE A ROTTEN WHEAT
WHAT I NEED IS A BACH CELLO SUITE


BACH AND BEFORE, IVES AND AFTER

>>128222091
Scriabi's deli is pretty good too

>>128221873
I listened to the whole thing. As a counter to your argument about melodies being singable and cantabile, he even lists Prokofiev as a great melodic writer. Prokofiev, as a generalization, wrote incredibly disjointed, leaping melodies (that I still find incredibly beautiful - the opening cello line of his Sinfonia Concertante is a great example of this to me). I’d also argue Tchaikovsky didn’t write long lines typically. He often wrote small melodies and used compositional techniques like repetition and sequencing to elongate them into phrases - I think his 6th symphony 2nd movement is a great example of this.
A large part of my issue lies with the use of blanket statements in music. I think pigeonholing great melodies into just what’s singable or what’s memorable is overly limited. And honestly Beethoven 5’s opening is incredibly memorable as a melody, and is singable as well. Yet he says it isn’t called a great melody because it’s an incredibly short melody that gets developed throughout the course of the movement. I’m partially playing devils advocate with Beethoven 5, but I guess I’m trying to offer the idea that the interesting parts of music for me lie in the grey details, not in black and white “objective” statements. Not for me personally, but if others get something from it that’s cool.

>>128220515
>Beethoven
>not a melodist
LMAO

>>128222207
>Prokofiev, as a generalization, wrote incredibly disjointed, leaping melodies
Every composer wrote both long, cantabile and short motivic phrases, but that's not the point. The point is where these composer excel at and how they approach music. Prokofiev's melodies can be chromatic and unstable, almost like Rachmaninoff with dark irony thrown in there, but that's why they're so unique and gorgeous.
>Tchaikovsky didn’t write long lines typically.
Yeah, many of his big tunes are actually short, but they are cantabile, something you'd hear in songs, folk, art or pop songs, or arias, that's my point. Writing vocal music is a different approach entirely, in counterpoint for example, jumping major sixths is forbidden because singers can't do it. That's just a small detail, there are natural rules that can't be put into academic terms, but they are always recognizable as something 'cantabile' e.g. Beethoven's pathetique 2nd movement, it's even marked cantabile.
>Beethoven 5’s opening is incredibly memorable as a melody, and is singable as well.
It's not "melody" in proper sense, just a motif. There's a fundamental difference. The line can sometimes blur, sure, but the 5ths motif is definitely not a "good melody", that would naturally occur in folk music for example.
>in the grey details, not in black and white “objective” statements
What's the difference?

>>128222302
The Prokofiev melody I mentioned is long and legato, though I’d argue not cantabile because it hardly features any stepwise motion. I wouldn’t call it motivic either - it’s rather wandering imo and doesn’t get developed. I think his melodies are unique and gorgeous too, and are often chromatic, so we’re on the same page in that sense. I think he’s a great example of the grey area I’m talking about. If we expect something like a Schubert melody from him, 9/10 we’re going to call it garbage because it’s vastly different in its structure.
The difference between black and white vs grey thinking to me is the rigidity of the framework by which one approaches music. A melody is one way of conveying an emotional idea, and calling one better or worse because it follows standard rules of melodic writing isn’t emotion-centric. I have no issue getting intensity and fury from Beethoven 5’s opening melody/motif. I think that makes it an effective (and affective) melody.
I think we agree about Tchaikovsky - I think what we’re discussing now is closer to the grey area (cantabile but not long motifs). I would argue we should approach all melodies like this. What makes them work? Not are they cantabile or do they fit this particular description.
I think being aware of general rules or guidelines has its place.

>>128222560
>I wouldn’t call it motivic either - it’s rather wandering imo and doesn’t get developed.
Yes, that's another aspect of a "melody". It's not motivic, it stands on its own, a singable tune, not necessarily a building block (although sonata forms force composers to somehow twist those melodies into building blocks, and they often struggle with that).
And yes Prokofiev's melodies are much quite different from Schubert's. So there is a huge diversity in approach to melody-writing. If you take away chromaticism from Prokofiev, it will start to sound like Rachmaninoff, which itself isn't *that* far from Schubert.
Black and white, binary thinking is indeed flawed in this case, and no one is arguing for that. It's more like a spectrum, as most things are in life. And there is a lot of nuance. It's also pointless to approach it academically with pure logic and empiricism, some things are best left to the ear alone.
> I think that makes it an effective (and affective) melody.
To some degree it is obviously subjective, but Beethoven's 5th really isn't great as a melody, it's great as a motif that builds the rest of the movement. As a standalone melody, it has very little to offer.

>>128222778
>not motivic
I’m going to repeat myself, but Tchaikovsky had tons of motivic melodies, which I know you previously agreed with. And I think we both agree that we enjoy Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev’s melodies.
>no one is advocating for binary thinking
This discussion started because I was repelled by the posted video in response to what I consider a binary statement - “we’re going to be objective” regarding something I believe is subjective. If someone loves all of Bach’s melodies and considers him be their favorite melodist, that’s true for them. If Schubert is a worse melodist for them, I can’t argue that. I don’t agree, but it’s subjective at a certain point. I think this gets at the point you’re making, which is that the ear reigns supreme.
>beethoven 5
I mean it’s not my favorite tune by any means, but man have I heard a lot of people humming just the opening couple bars in my life. I think it’s fair they might consider it a great tune.

>>128222966
He did, but he seldom treated them like motifs. Especially in the ballets, there's barely any 'development', just restatement, because they can stand on their own. Beethoven's 5th certainly wouldn't stand on its own, it would be painfully boring and repetitive without the variations and development.
>we’re going to be objective
Objectivity doesn't imply binary, especially in music. I think Hurwitz implies that and Mendelssohn has to be the biggest outlier in his list, because he wrote tons of great tunes unlike Beethoven.

>>128221840
I mean I think Beethoven wrote a couple of catchy bangers

>>128223083
They are indeed bangers, Grosse Fuge has to be greatest of all time collection of bangers, but not quite as melodic as Tchaikovsky's bangers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pcOl59jZdQ

Hi. I'm a casual listener to classical music but I enjoy it 90% of the time (except English language operas). Can you guys recommend a piece or a composer that is heavily drenched in the melodic minor scale? I really want to get those mode's sound in my bones, specially the altered scale. Thanks

>>128223079
I think in the context of musical melodic preferences, calling ones preferences objective can imply binary. I could see arguments to the contrary. At the very least, I feel strongly that subjectivity is more honest a description of what he came up with than objectivity. I’m not sure if this difference comes across as pedantic - to me the difference between subjective and objective in music is important. Recognizing everything is subjective to some degree helps develop a more personally interesting musician. This may be a comment on where I come from though. I learned the standard idioms and interpretations of cello rep at a young age, and it took work to break away from the strictness that existed in my head. But I love music so much more now as a result.
So obviously I’ve got a personal stake in the matter. I’m not particularly interested in hearing “objective” statements at this point, but I do recognize that classical music is built on tradition both compositionally and in interpretation. And I still think it’s relevant and important to learn the traditions, I just feel like I’ve had plenty of that (and honestly from people I trust a little more than Dave - not because his opinion is wrong or bad by any means).

>>128223188
Melodic minor is usually used in ascending minor scales, rarely on purpose, I think. So when you see ascending melody, it's probably in melodic minor, and descending, natural minor. Harmonic minor is the standard however, since it's what functional harmony demands (leading tone). And most minor music is predominantly in harmonic minor. Chopin's 1st ballade has a small section of melodic minor, notice 6th and 7th are raised (bars 200 onwards, before the coda)
https://youtu.be/VmFmAvwO1pE?si=C6Uwg_fTJH5JMl2c&t=442
It's unusual and exotic, but this a moment of huge tension, right before the climactic coda and culimation of the piece.
Op. 62 no.1 and heroic polonaise have some melodic minors as well, I can find and timestamp them for you if you want. But I don't know of any piece I listen to that's exclusively in melodic minor. Have you tried asking AI? If you can read sheet music you'll track them down easily

>>128219486
Obvious samefag is obvious

>>128222662
It's newbie and a bit immature but understandable.

now playing

start of Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 7 in C Minor, Op. 30 No. 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3zcpcoctqE&list=OLAK5uy_lHIZWlM7Oy00EEsc98itTS-YMl_i1S8tE&index=2

start of Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 10 in G Major, Op. 96
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-4vcf-QgEs&list=OLAK5uy_lHIZWlM7Oy00EEsc98itTS-YMl_i1S8tE&index=5

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lHIZWlM7Oy00EEsc98itTS-YMl_i1S8tE

Gonna go through these guys' entire cycle of these works. This felt like a good starting place, despite being the last in the set to be recorded and released. Should be good!

>>128223083
>>128223176
Prokofiev's themes in his cello sonata already tops anything Beethoven ever did, melodically speaking. But hey, maybe that's just me.

>>128219675 (OP)
Bach Partita No. 1 in B minor, BWV 1002 is as close a human can get to God as possible. It's transcendental. How could Bach conceive of such a beauty? I kneel!

Here it is by Itzhak Perlman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16eLsa8tQww&list=PLd6wzPury_f7ZABd1zknWGvVTeCH95Ug_&index=2

I'm listening to this version: https://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497027

>>128225166
Yeah, once they click just about every other violin sonata (piano duo included) begins to pale in comparison. Their sublimity is a monument to the highest peaks of human creativity, no doubt. And I'm not familiar with that Schroeder set but the rest are among the best of the best for the works. The Cello Suites are similar in both greatness and style too when you want more.

>>128225238
This November I'm listening to Yo-Yo Ma performing Bach’s complete Suites for solo Cello for the first time in one evening, in Boston. Very excited. I think I heard The Cello Suites but without very involved listening on my part. Do you listen to a recording before going to see it live (if previously unheard) or wait for a live performance to make a definitive impression?

>>128225330
Very exciting! I'd love to go to that if I could.

>Do you listen to a recording before going to see it live (if previously unheard) or wait for a live performance to make a definitive impression?
I-I've never been to a live classical performance/concert... don't tell anyone tho. Anyway, personally I'd treat it the same as how people treat rock/pop/hiphop shows, which is get acclimated with the pieces beforehand if possible.

>>128221626
this is true, mozart would have written tristan und isolde had he lived twenty years longer.

>>128223501
Ok some Chopin pieces then thank you. Unfortunately I can't read music, but I can recognize the melodic minor sometimes when it ascends with the whole tone thing or feels very tense with the raised 7th before resolving to the root - but this is only when it's played mostly straight. I'd appreciate if you could anon, these pieces are quite dense and I might miss the certain trees in the forest. And no I haven't since the last times I've tried it can't really think and recognize patterns - it will even churn up incorrect answers confidently. I treat it these days as a slightly better search engine. Thank you

>>128217770
>So does Leslie Howard's!
Just took a look at the more obscure assorted discs from his set and goddamn, it's too comprehensive lol. There are some discs where I don't even know what I'm looking at in terms of recognizing the pieces, and it might sound silly but I don't like to listen to a piece within a firm grasp of its context and its place, lest I end up listening to a bunch of pieces that are, say, recreations and mashups of outtakes and discarded compositions and arrangements and rough drafts, etc., without knowing it.

What are some recordings that just ruin every other performance of a work for you?

https://youtu.be/ldWaO4sWots?si=PZsmagGQIUAOqd0_

https://youtu.be/5BaLVjoLUAQ?si=FsZflxwOle-yLLEe
(Moravec might have the best Chopin Nocturne cycle on record)

https://youtu.be/UlhPYOlo_b8?si=eJx3SwNNrJDT8gPF

>>128217770
>So does Leslie Howard's!
Just took a look at the more obscure assorted discs from his set and goddamn, it's too comprehensive lol. There are some discs where I don't even know what I'm looking at in terms of recognizing the pieces, and it might sound silly but I don't like to listen to a piece without a firm grasp of its context and its place, lest I end up listening to a bunch of pieces that are, say, recreations and mashups of outtakes and discarded compositions and arrangements and rough drafts, etc., without knowing it.

>>128217770
>>128226412
doublepost: man, the Liszt at the Theatre and Liszt at the Opera and New Discovery volumes are especially daunting lol. Obviously I knew some of these pieces existed but this is extensive

>>128226407
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deEK3deSURg

Look at that, the young French conductor who looks like a black Mahler has come out with a Berlioz Symphonie fantastique. Will it be better or worse than Makela's recent splashy release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ule2jaHx8YQ&list=OLAK5uy_mkqMjNpi5kxKhZvMvCAb-B2gcV-BD7Ig8&index=2

Bach after 3 days of Scarlatti

Listen to Chopin

As I followed daily reports from the Chopin Competition, I was perplexed to hear several respected commentators claim that Vincent Ong’s performance of Chopin’s Etude Op. 10 No. 2 in the first round was too slow and overly careful. Yet, among all the contestants who performed the piece (five, if I counted correctly), Ong was the only one who actually played it at the tempo indicated by Chopin himself: quarter-note = 144 (originally, he had indicated half-note = 69, which would correspond to quarter-note = 138).

One may object to other aspects of Ong’s performance – and that is of course their prerogative – but this reaction to tempo is curious. It seems to reflect a broader confusion that often surrounds the notion of speed in performance. Consider Kevin Chen’s superhuman rendition of the same etude, taken at roughly quarter-note = 188. It was undeniably thrilling. But have we now decided that 188 has become the new standard? Is this what we expect from every performer? And is Vincent Ong's 144 a problem because someone plays it faster? How about the originally intended 138?

We are often adamant about honoring the score and respecting the composer’s intentions, yet in this case, the one pianist who actually followed Chopin’s metronome marking was faulted for being “too slow.” After all, Ong was following the Ekier edition, as required by the competition, doing what the score asked for. We can of course get into ontological discussions as to whether 144 manages to portray the spirit of the etude, etc. But this is not the point of this post.

This paradox is not unique to Chopin’s 10/2. Glenn Gould’s breakneck tempo in Variation 1 of Bach’s Goldberg Variations in 1955 has, over time, come to define the piece for generations of listeners, even though its writing clearly suggests a polonaise – a slow, stately dance. Yet few modern pianists dare to play it that way; the precedent has become a kind of mythic benchmark.

>>128228474
Good post.

>>128228474
The real issue is that you're playing chopin instead of a better composer

Never properly listened to scriabin, what's his essentials?

preferably ones without any occult stuff...

>>128228835
>preferably ones without any occult stuff...
just don't listen to Scriabin then

>>128228835
the only essential scriabin are his piano sonatas.

>>128226298
I realized the nocturne modulates a lot and uses heavy chromaticism, even though the passage is there (in middle section, in two different minor keys), it's much easier&clearer to analyze Bach:
https://youtu.be/2DQYGOiaZVI?si=OycQqcB17qf-it_3&t=1019
Chaconne has a clear D melodic minor scale run right there.
But this is the kind of thing you can hear anywhere, just play it on the keyboard lol. So my question is what exactly are you looking for and why?
And yeah, AI does hallucinate a lot when you ask such questions, that's why you should use its search tool, it'll read through several threads. Even then you should confirm it because right now it gave me tons of wrong examples and wasted my time. It's better to use search engine yourself in this case desu.

>>128229293
his Op. 54 and Op. 60 are absolutely essential, and i would say all of his symphonies are essential, also the Etudes and Poèmes.

>>128228835
Start with the glorious 8/12 etude:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ClDFmFmr0k
Fantasy in B minor, *the* Scriabin piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL3E5aCQlG0
Pay attention to the second theme - one of the greatest melodies ever composed.
And sonata no.4 (before you move to the rest of the sonatas):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5MFrX8yWhs
Perhaps the GOAT coda, only behind Chopin's 4th ballade and appassionata codas really, there's nothing more satisfying than those 3, I'll die on that hill.
As for orchestral stuff, of course, Le Poème de l'extase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YnsbmSGHJs
Try to keep up with the subjects, development and overall texture, you'll drown in its beauty.

>>128229374
Oh and also, try different recordings, that goes without saying. The 4ths coda comes in many different shapes and forms, Hamelin has an incredibly fast one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqOicJVsEbA
Pogorelich is not very expressive and not authentic, but his coda is brutal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9BZWNBFV1U
In the fantasy, some pianists pay closer attention to the polyphony than others, which is imo essential. For example, Hamelin's is kinda weak, but still worth checking out, but Sofronitsky's is essential:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvc2K_5JWho

>>128228474
>Glenn Gould’s breakneck tempo in Variation 1 of Bach’s Goldberg Variations in 1955 has, over time, come to define the piece for generations of listeners, even though its writing clearly suggests a polonaise – a slow, stately dance. Yet few modern pianists dare to play it that way; the precedent has become a kind of mythic benchmark.
So what recordings play it as a slow, stately dance? Gould wasn't the first to play it very fast.