Thread 82390453

99% of robot's lives would improve if they realized one thing:
What you believe determines the outcome of what will happen in the vast majority of scenarios. If you believe you will fail, you will fail. More accurately, you will act in a way which will create your own failure.
The reason so many robots believe that things are predetermined, is because they, themselves have predetermined it. They have created a self fulfilling prophecy. And that's exactly what everyone everywhere does.
Create a self fulfilling prophecy. Chad believes he will succeed, so he behaves in a way that would create his success.
Incels believe they will fail. So they behave in a way that would create their own failure.

>>82390453 (OP)
>predetermined
>>82390453 (OP)
>success

>>82390453 (OP)
Huh, so you post outside of /mbti/ sometimes

>>82390468
More than you even realize.
;)

Glad to know everything negative is my personal moral failure

>>82390477
You didnt believe you were going to be 6 foot tall you fool

>>82390453 (OP)
I wouldn't say its 99% like you did, but yes I do believe in self-fulfilling prophecies
>>82390477
kek

>>82390453 (OP)
>What you believe determines the outcome of what will happen in the vast majority of scenarios
cool, but you cant willingly choose to believe what is convenient for you
for example, even if your statement is true, it cant just choose to believe ill be some rich handsome low inhib dark triad chad. because that would be deluding myself, and holding contradictory beliefs at once

>Create a self fulfilling prophecy. Chad believes he will succeed
>Incels believe they will fail
again, this is a failure in basic epistemology. you base your belief systems based on what is reasonable to do so. you cannot reasonably base your belief systems on the convenient but unreasonable, because that contradicts epistemological standards, which are objective and real, and how we come to hold all of our justified beliefs

"the strength of our blieves should reflect the strength of the evidence presented"
this is an objectively true statement, and your little cheat delusional belief system would contradict it, and would be a lie

>>82390453 (OP)
>hey hey listen guys
>actually it's ALL YOUR FAULT
>you can win the lottery if you believe in yourself
I rate your analysis 1/10

>>82390508
>but you cant willingly choose to believe what is convenient for you
Rephrase that into a set of beliefs:
>I believe that it is not possible to willingly choose what you believe in
What does this mean?
You will act in a way which creates your desired (or undesired) outcome. You don't want to change your beliefs, so you believe you cannot, therefore you will not.

But, the fact of the matter is that you can change your beliefs. You can change them to whatever you want to believe, and, furthermore; you don't even need proof to change them.
>because that would be deluding myself,
Here is the root of your issue, and why you do not want to change your beliefs. You have built an identity around these beliefs. They are not "things I believe" they are "who I am". In order for you to change your beliefs, you entire identity would have to change. But, I would gander that you also believe that it's not possible for people to change.

Beliefs are not, and never have been founded on evidence.

>>82390558
Sometimes human will is not enough to transcend the material world. It's nice to hear when people are trying to be unrealistically uplifting, but it doesn't work if you're actually believing these things.

Not living up to expectations crushes so many souls out there, some are better giving up and that's a fact. Who's to say? Well obviously the person we're talking about. We do not know them personally so saying it's your fault and you fell into a pessimistic trap that created your identity is grasping at straws because you want to live in a just world.

>>82390453 (OP)
Honestly, you're probably right.

After a lifetime of being demoralized by repeated failures and coping by convincing myself that failure is inevitable, I ended up forming a tulpa and she's way more confident than me on account of not having the emotional baggage I have. I even noticed girls seem to have more positive body language toward us when she's in control because she just projects an aura of confidence that I can't.

>Chad believes he will succeed, so he behaves in a way that would create his success.
1/10 bait

>>82390616
The only time human will cannot transcend the material world is, you guessed it, when you believe you cannot. If you believe you will lose, you will behave in a way which creates, effectively, guarantees your loss. If you believe you cannot do something, you will not do something.
What you're effectively saying is: "It doesn't work if you don't believe it will work."
Which, ironically, is EXACTLY what I'm saying. If you believe your life is doomed and the only option you have is to give up, guess what? Your life will be doomed and you will give up.

I didn't say anyone was at fault for anything. I did, however, say they are responsible. There's a difference. If you give up, and create and identity around giving up and being pessimistic, that was your choice. You are responsible for that. If you want things to be different, you are the one who has to change those things.

>>82390775
>If you give up, and create and identity around giving up and being pessimistic, that was your choice. You are responsible for that.
based satanic abuser

>>82390775
i'm being trolled, the world is not the playground of the mind. People get shot and killed by stray bullets without them ever thinking that's how they were going to die. And I'm not totally disagreeing that a mindset couldn't affect the possible outcome, but to say thats the only variable at play is to be completely delusional.

Where did you even get this idea? Are you schizophrenic? because so am I and I sometimes think I'm a godling

>>82390558
>What does this mean?
>You will act in a way which creates your desired (or undesired) outcome.
no because that would be willingly deluding yourself.
i means that if i accept the truths in epistomology, its entailed that my beliefs reflect the evidence thats presented to me

and if the evidence is that im a low value male with no hoes, that no girl has ever liked, im justified in holding my beliefs

The dominant view in philosophy is that people do not have direct, voluntary control over their beliefs. and this position is much more justified to hold than your wishful thinking pro-delusional advocasy

>But, the fact of the matter is that you can change your beliefs
yeah for sure, if there is justified reason for it. i dont see any justified reason for changing my beliefs as to if i could get girls

>You don't want to change your beliefs
well, i want to know the truths. i dont want to believe falsehoods. i think if i believe i could get girls it would be a falsehood

>You have built an identity around these beliefs.
even if thats the case, it would be a justified belief, because the evidence supports it. my life supports it

>Beliefs are not, and never have been founded on evidence.
wrong. this is another epistomological mistake. justified beliefs are the ONLY thing that is founded on evidence, and are the root of all of your beliefs

>>82390453 (OP)
What part of my life would improve? Surely not every part. Some things are out of my control. My looks for example, Which has made me unattractive to women.

>>82390882
My claim is not that you're in complete and total control over the world. My claim is:
>99% of robot's lives would improve if they realized one thing:
>What you believe determines the outcome of what will happen in the vast majority of scenarios.
I could extend a sort of magical branch of thinking to say that the person who took a random stray really believed or wanted that to happen. But, it would be completely baseless and unprovable.
And thirdly, if what I'm saying seems like magical thinking, it's probably a projection of your own misunderstanding. Or, an extremification in order to invalidate ideas you do not like.

>Where did you even get this idea?
It did not come from a singular place.

>>82391060
I feel like you moved the goal post but sure I can agree with that. After all if you remove something from an equation, or alter it you're going to get a different results. It's common sense.
> Or, an extremification in order to invalidate ideas you do not like.
I'm like half away agreeing with you, idk what you're talking about me taking things into extremes.
The thing about logic is that a statement can not be true and false at the same time. If you say that it has a 1 to 1 correlation to the outcome, and results say otherwise then it can't be true.

>>82390453 (OP)
>What you believe determines the outcome of what will happen in the vast majority of scenarios. If you believe you will fail, you will fail. More accurately, you will act in a way which will create your own failure.
You are ignorant. The reality is there is a paradox of believing in agency. If you believe you have free will and you can change things you are more likely to do that. But you can't actively choose what you believe in and there is no free will so you can't do anything with this knowledge. And to believe in free will you have to either have a low IQ or to achieve a lot / have great life in formative years which then makes you want to take responsibility for your good life. But that good life was just chance. And then after you do that you find some losers and try to convince them free will is real because this gives you extra validation and makes you feel good because you lie to yourself it was all thanks to you. In a just world people like that would be lynched.

>>82391166
>And to believe in free will you have to either have a low IQ
nah, a non-negligible amount of philosophers defend libretarian free will

this is phd philosophers who are professors and teach philosophers. its not just low iq people, you are ignorant of the statistics. this is not a fringe position

>>82391191
There is a second part of my explanation, the desire to validate your life being successful. I thought long and hard on this shit and i am convinced this is true. I went from being suicidal everyday to one day getting over it and i see both perspectives. I can clearly see you don't get to choose anything and people who think they do just lie to themselves and others for their ego's sake.

>>82391005
>deluding yourself.
This position is ultimately impossible to argue against, which is why you assume it. It's the equivalent of the Christians citing the bible as proof for the bible.

Anything which goes against what you currently believe will always be viewed, from your perspective, as deluding yourself. Because, from your frame of reference, your beliefs are not beliefs, they are facts. And anything that goes against facts is delusion.
It's the ultimate ego defense. There is no room to be had, there is no ground to be covered, there is no agreement to be reached, you are objectively correct and everything which falls outside of your perspective is objectively false. And for that reason, I'm not even going to attempt to refute it and I'm not going to read any further.

I will say this, though:
You remind me of "I was the first second generation Blizzard employee."

If you want to actually have a conversation, well, the balls in your court.

>>82390477
>Glad to know everything negative is my personal moral failure
Yep it is.
You do nothing to improve so you get no rewards out of life. But it's ok you'll seethe about how life didn't hand you a free ride, like a woman. That is your life.

>>82391024
Why are you asking me this? As if I have some sort of insight into the areas of your life that need to be improved? Surely, you're the one who knows what needs to be improved, and what can be improved, and what you're actively avoiding.
Does every single aspect of your life need to improve? Obviously not. Especially when you consider the fact that improvement is exponential.
>>82391122
I didn't move the goalpost. I've said the same thing, what is changing is your understanding of what I'm saying.
>I'm like half away agreeing with you, idk what you're talking about me taking things into extremes.
Go back like 2 posts where you ask if I'm schizophrenic and imply that what I'm saying is magical thinking, where you also use an extreme, and largely irrelevant, example of someone catching a stray bullet.

>>82391318
It is easy to improve your life when you have genes that make you work hard, a good support structure and you look attractive. People around you pat you on the back and you feel nice about improving yourself.

>>82391373
>and what CAN be improved
This is very important, Because the things that I can improve have no affect on my wellbeing. The things that I can't improve does though. If I wasn't unattractive (ugly face) I wouldn't be miserable. My outlook on life and what I perceive to be true has no relevance on my outcomes when it comes to the things that actually matters.

>>82391166
>But you can't actively choose what you believe in
That's a very convenient belief for someone who doesn't want to change their beliefs. Your whole position is just like the other anons, a whole lot of ego defense.
You just don't want to accept that your choices put you there. And fine, don't. I'm surely not going to sit here and try to convince you.

>>82391406
It is objective truth. Go find a random god on the internet and believe in him if you are an atheist. Or if you believe in a god become an atheist. It is impossible without some serious mental illness.

>>82390453 (OP)
I disagree because it doesn't line up with what happens to me in practice whatsoever.

>>82391390
Yeah well society doesn't give a fuck about you because you're white and male. They want you dead in a ditch while calling you evil for exsisting and celebrating your demise. All of society wants you dead so who is going to help you?

>>82391445
>Yeah well society doesn't give a fuck about you because you're white and male.

>>82391398
>Because the things that I can improve have no affect on my wellbeing.
Reframe this into a belief, and you've highlighted exactly why you are stagnant.
"I believe that making changes will ultimately not change my wellbeing. Therefore, I won't change anything, and instead will let things continuously get worse."

I bet you, there's like 10 things directly in front of your face that could be changed which would make a huge impact on your well being. And you even know what they are. But you don't want to acknowledge them for one reason or another.
And you've even blamed everything on a single problem, and if it's not that one thing being fixed, there's no point. Your entire framework is self sabotage. Proving the point of the OP.
>>82391421
>It is objective truth.
Wow, how could I have seen that coming!? There's no way I could have predicted you'd say that!!!
>Go find a random god on the internet and believe in him
No. Not because I cannot, but because I do not want to. Changing your beliefs has real consequences and I'm not going to go believing in random things all willy-nilly just to prove a point.

I know it's possible because I've done it, not only that, but I've seen other people do it.

>>82391520
>I bet you, there's like 10 things directly in front of your face that could be changed which would make a huge impact on your well being
Not really. My main desire is finding a girlfriend. Unfortunately I can't do that because I'm too ugly. I really don't care about anything else and of course that doesn't mean that I actively avoid things that make me feel good or self improvement, I just know from experience that it won't help me one bit in living out my dreams.
>inb4 still your outlook
I've probably self improved more than you and when you get no reward for it whatsoever your outlook isn't gonna be rainbows and sunshine.

>>82391520
>No. Not because I cannot, but because I do not want to.
If you can do that then you should seek medical help.

>>82391373
oh I see I totally missed that sentence, or forgot about it, yea I guess you didn't move the goal post. the schizophrenic part was because it borders delusion don't take it as adhom I don't think schizophrenic people are dumb or stupid.

besides my mistake I still believe that what I said is true. The example of catching a stray was to show that there are real things that can affect a person's life that are outside their control, and having a positive mindset wont change anything.

It's wasn't a voluntary process to be resentful, or depressed, or anxious due to the fact that you did not make the cut for societies expectations. You asked for a metamorphosis of the mind as if to invalidate everyone's lived experiences. That's all, and its why you're getting this reaction from everyone.

>>82391442
So you're saying people don't self sabotage? Especially the people here? Self sabotage is the biggest thing that keeps people depressed these days.
>>82391576
>Unfortunately I can't do that because I'm too ugly.
Same root belief. If you don't actually want to change, fine. I'm not going to try and convince you.
You say you've self improved, but you're still holding onto the beliefs which prevent you from improving. So, clearly, you're lying to yourself.

If you don't change what you believe, nothing will change. It's the only thing that matters. Which is why so many people do not see "improvement" from their self improvement. Superficial changes change nothing.
>>82391577
If you don't believe in free will, it is you who needs medical intervention.

>>82390453 (OP)
>If you believe you will fail, you will fail
What causes this belief? Question mark, I am just asking a question.

>>82391677
>no u
I don't accept your transition.

>>82391657
Telling people to change their mindsets does not invalidate their experience. That's really all I can say to that.
>and having a positive mindset wont change anything.
And here's the root of your beliefs.
"What's going to happen is going to happen, the world is ultimately random, and everything is outside of your control, regardless."

And what you will get from this mindset is what it presents. Randomness. Meaninglessness. Hopelessness. You'll get exactly what you ask for. Because that's how it works.
>>82391692
There's lots of individual causes that mostly stem from trauma of one sort or another. There's a singular root cause, which is that it gives you control. Choosing when and how you fail gives the illusion of control. Which is likely related to someone, or something taking control away from them.

An example of this is a child who is physically abused as a child. So, as a way to regain control, the child acts in a way which gets them physically abused. If they're going to be abused, at least they can control when, or how, or why. This behavior then becomes a habit which is applies to every portion of their life.
They think something in their life will go poorly, so instead of letting things play out, they make it end poorly on their own terms.

Make sense?
>>82391726
Yes, you. Not no you.

I will just say the quiet part out loud. Scum that tries to convince losers they chose their shitty life instead of working hard like the scum in question are the biggest pieces of shit out there. Your cushy life is a result of random stuff you didn't choose. And that is fine. Enjoy it. But if you use that life to then find losers and lie to them and yourself you earned what you have, you should die from cancer.

It is the next level of greed to have what others don't have and to try and feed your ego that it is all because you did it by yourself.

>>82391788
You can't blame the past forever, anon.
You have to let go eventually.

>>82391827
non sequitur. therefore i don't care about your fortune cookie wisdom.

>>82391843
If you think that's a non sequitur, you don't understand what you said, or what I said.

>>82391677
>Same root belief.
Yeah okay whatever femoid.
>You say you've self improved, but you're still holding onto the beliefs which prevent you from improving. So, clearly, you're lying to yourself
What am I holding on to? That I'm too ugly to get a girlfriend?
>If you don't change what you believe, nothing will change
So I should just be delusional and pretend that everything us fine is that it?
Femoid word babble.

>>82391778
>>And here's the root of your beliefs.
>"What's going to happen is going to happen, the world is ultimately random, and everything is outside of your control, regardless."

I'm not really saying that, don't know where you got that from me. Just because some outcomes are innevitable it doesn't mean everything is random, and everything is outside of control. I don't believe in predeterminism. Can you give some examples about what scenarios would lead to your desired outcome depending on your belief.

>>82391860
>What am I holding on to?
Your old beliefs.
>everything us fine is that it?
That would be silly. Then you wouldn't change anything. You already believe that everything is fine as it is. That's why you won't change anything.
If anything, I'm telling you to stop believing that everything is okay the way it is, you fucking woman.

>>82391860
>calling OP a femoid
kek

>broooo just believe it will be all fine and suddenly it will be all fine
i am sick of normgroids fucking saying this, i believe i will fail and it just softens the hit, i believe i will win and i just end up failing the same like a retard and i do the first thing instead. you just can't will success into your life by repeating you WILL win despite life's circumstances like a down syndrome retard, believing that will make you not put effort into it and just take a worse shock when you find out your happy guy larp failed miserably. dismiss all emotional illusions of will and ask yourself from another point of view if you're fit to do mentally and physically, if you aren't don't even bother, done. no need to kill yourself mentally over you being an useless bum when you understand this

>>82390453 (OP)
aint that the bitch from a mech anime made by the same dudes from deadman wonderland?
also
>just MANIFEST AAAAAAAAAAAA
okey bro, i'll manifest an 18yo virgin gf, i'm sure that will work

>>82392240
Manifesting doesn't work for NPC's like you.
You have to have a soul in order for such magic to work.

>>82390453 (OP)
That's what Soka Gakkai is about. Human revolution begins from yourself.

>>82390453 (OP)
I believe you are retarded So I act in a way that makes you retarded.

>>82391963
>don't know where you got that from me.
You said it. And it really, REALLY sounds like you believe in pre-determinism. Because the way you framed the below quote was that the person who caught a stray would have caught that stray regardless of anything. There is no changing what would have happened.
>Can you give some examples about what scenarios would lead to your desired outcome depending on your belief.
It's not about scenarios. It's about your perspective, and how you have influence over any scenario in which you take a part.

The perspective you take determines the situations you will find yourself in, and how you will behave within those given situations.
As an example, a person who has a victim mentality will find themselves in situations where they are the victim. And to them, it will appear as if they just have bad luck and things are random.
But they're the one creating that with their own perspective of themselves and the world around them.
>>82391657
>The example of catching a stray was to show that there are real things that can affect a person's life that are outside their control, and having a positive mindset wont change anything.
Specifically this part:
>and having a positive mindset wont change anything.

So do you think the neets who believe that they're destined for greatness because they were told that they are so smart, are in fact likely destined for greatness?

>>82392831
No because they don't actually want to be great.

>manifesting
One of the earliest wishes I ever remember making (largely because I have a poor memory) was to have a large cock (I made this wish when I was starting / in the middle of puberty).
It's 8 inches now.

Monkey's paw: I have no one to use it with lol.
At least fapping is nice.

>>82390453 (OP)
STFU You can accept reality or live in a lie i choose the obvious. Now Fucking KYS.

>>82390477
>>82390477
Should have manifested a higher IQ, being tall having a strong jawline and being born to rich parents.

>>82392027
>I believe I will fail and I fail
>I believe I will win, but I do the same things as if I believed I would fail, and fail the same way as if I believed I would fail
So what you're saying is you still believe you will fail. Because that's how you behave. Just because you change the words you say doesn't mean you've changed your beliefs.
You've highlighted why so many people believe it's not possible to willfully change your beliefs. Changing your beliefs means changing your actions.
Trying to superimpose a counter-belief over your current belief system will do nothing.
>>82392240
No, they were created by different people as far as I know.
>just MANIFEST AAAAAAAAAAAA
Well, at it's core, yes. Manifestation is simply acting out a belief. You're perfectly content to manifest failure, pain, and your own unending suffering, why can't you do the opposite?

Manifestation is not saying "I want x, y and z to happen" and then it happens. It's believing that those things can happen, then making them happen.

Belief is the core principle to action. If you do not believe in something, you will not act. You type on your keyboard because you have placed belief in that keyboard, the computer, the internet, etc. You sit on your chair because you believe it's a chair.

If you disagree with OP it means you think one of the most successful women on earth is wrong. And she isn't.

If a kid terminally bound to wheelchair believes he can never become an NBA basketball player then he will never become an NBA basketball player. If a kid bound to a wheelchair believes he can one day become an NBA basketball player then he will become an NBA basketball player. Simple as.

>>82393086
If a bald 5'2" Indian/Filipino balding janitor wants to be a supermodel he can just manifest and it will happen

>>82392625
The funny thing is, even though you're being ironic.
This is exactly true.

But, hey, at least you're honest about what you're doing.

I cannot delude myself into believing that someone will give me a chance if no woman has ever reciprocated interest in my life or approached me of my own volition. It's not like my personal self-hatred and lack of confidence were born in a vacuum. They have calcified after years of reaffirming evidence. Belief has to draw from some semblance of reality.

It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's reality and years of established evidence reaffirming itself. When you lack the validation of others, you cannot brainwash yourself to magically start believing this time will be different. You have no evidence to base that on. Concurrently, if you have the validation of the genuine lack of approval of others through their sheer indifference to you after decades of non-interest, it's evidence enough.

Every friend group I have had has dropped ties with me with time. No female even considers me a candidate for dating. I am not even rejected, it's as if I don't even exist in their view. I know my inner negative self-critic isn't entirely objective in their view and assessment of me, so I have to rely on external validation. Those external sources don't know my inner voice, and they cannot judge me prior to interacting me much in a way that I'd be able to self-sabotage. When every external validator comes to the same reasonable conclusion or confirms what my own inner voice has already concluded, then I know it's not some semblance of belief. It's just indicative of my lack of value. It's just reality. Some people simply just have shit lives or have nothing to offer.

>>82393310
It is a self fulfilling prophecy though because of feedback loops. Yours is negative so you start with being a loser kid, become more negative, continue being even bigger loser etc. On the other side chad gets his virginity stolen when he is 13. Sees girls like him. Becomes confident. Girls like him even more.

In that way it is true. You just don't get to pick the feedback loop.

>>82393352

Yes, that's a feedback loop. But the argument is that it's almost entirely mindset. It is not - especially in a case when it's about the relational aspects of other people in which it's far more complex.

That loser kid wasn't necessarily born a loser. That was affirmed by reality and external validation. Sure - a kid may be genetically predisposed to be more sensitive to criticism or more quiet in social situations. That doesn't overcome years of negative detraction from peers though. They were labeled as such as they went about life, or at least they realized that when they were less successful than their peers in certain facets. Group and relational dynamics over long periods of time form a group consensus approximating a decent average. Over a long enough period of time and enough experiences with other people, you are exposed to enough people you can rule out your own mind being the sole poison against you. Yes - it will self-sabotage and things with time. People can look past that or will, if you meet the right ones. If they don't, it's more revealing that something is fundamentally off that goes beyond a simple belief issue. People will realize something is off.

Avoidance begets more avoidance. It leads to behaviors that isolate and seclude more. But reality trumps self-deluded thinking, and that original choice to avoid or isolate wasn't born from someone of someone's own mind alone. It just reinforces what already was.

>>82393310
This is the third identical reply I've seen here.
>I cannot delude myself
This is the same thing everyone says. But you're already deluding yourself. But you don't see it as a delusion, because you believe that your beliefs are "objective true". Thus you cannot challenge them, because they are facts.
To you, your beliefs are not beliefs. They are facts. The evidence for this is the next quote. Because facts are based on evidence.
>You have no evidence to base that on.
Then there's the implication that beliefs are founded on evidence. This is not how beliefs work. This is a rationalization to justify beliefs, it comes AFTER the belief. Beliefs are fundamentally irrational. Beliefs are emotional, they are not factual.

What you have done here is created an identity around your trauma. You cannot change it because it's "who you are", and it safeguarded by the belief that it would be delusional to think you could "be someone else".

You are the prime example for what I'm saying. You are literally THE PERSON who would benefit the most from listening to what I'm saying. But you cannot let go the belief that prevents you from actually listening and making the changes.

>>82393446

The identity isn't mine alone to create. Yes - a human being will attempt to rationalize. They will try to match a belief to support their view or their identity. This is why one cannot solely rely on their own thinking alone. That's their own belief. That's their rationalization of how they ended up in the situation they are in.

Over a long enough period of time and after you interacted with enough people, you can holistically average the opinions of other people to achieve a type of accurate group consensus. This consensus will approximate the mean of reality, keeping you grounded as you can at least approach some form of objectivity. If everyone I've met or interacted with comes to the same conclusions, it's evidence enough. You are trying to rule that out completely. You are ignoring the reinforcement by outside sources.

Epistemologically - yes - you cannot truly know what people are thinking about you. You can end up picking and choosing what sounds true to reinforce your own beliefs and rationalize. Other people don't know your mind. What you are left with are facts about your situation which you pick and choose from. If every friend group you ever had abandons you - that's a fact. As to why - that's speculative belief and rationalization. If no woman ever approaches you or considers you for a relationship - that's a fact. As to why - you can only speculate or rationalize. If this pattern repeats itself over a long period of life, it's evidence of further issues.

You are arguing a chicken and egg issue. Certain behaviors reinforce the reality people live in - that is true. But, given a long enough data set, you can rule out some of those behaviors and associate with some fundamental aspect of the person. Some of the problems that a typical robot faces are judgments before they even have a chance to self-sabotage. Someone would be able to see past those behaviors over a long enough period. No amount of belief is going to change reality.

>>82393558
>The identity isn't mine alone to create.
It is. The external world does not create your identity. Things happen to you, then you choose to identify with those things or not. This is why people who were abused as children wind up in abusive relationships as adults, then find themselves in a revolving door of abusive relationship after abusive relationship.
They have attached themselves to their childhood trauma and built an identity around it and they have carried that trauma into the present and continue to act it out. Which means, they will get exactly what they got as a child, abusive relationships.

This is exactly what the people here door too. They were rejected as children in some way or another, they took that rejection then built an identity around it. Then they act in a way that rejects themselves further. It's all for the illusion of control. If you can make people reject you, then you don't have to worry about them rejecting you. Self sabotage is the ultimate defense mechanism for the unknown.

>You are trying to rule that out completely. You are ignoring the reinforcement by outside sources.
Not even remotely close. You just think I'm saying something that I'm not saying.

>it's evidence of further issues.
You have a good point here. But you don't know what that issue is. Or, at the very least, you're unwilling to accept that is what the issue is. What I'm saying is, the underlying issue is not some superficial thing like being ugly. It's your perspective. Your outlook on life. The belief structure upon which your identity is founded creates these outcomes.

>You are arguing a chicken and egg issue.
The egg came first. Just as did the beliefs. Beliefs create actions, not actions create beliefs.

You, and people like you, cannot separate "who I am" from "what I have experienced", which continuously recreates the past in the present. Which is also why you have the response "trying to invalidate my experience".

>>82393711

You cannot separate your lived experience from yourself. They are co-constructed. You can never know yourself, as you are unable to separate yourself from the environment you have experienced. You are a subjective participant in the experiment. You are constantly evolving and growing as well as your experiences. Your concept of self is simply a snapshot of yourself at a given time. You won't be the same tomorrow as you are today.

To assert you can know who you are is foolish and biased. You can only approximate to know a portion of yourself. Your identity or "who you are" exists in many facets. There's the you as you know yourself or proclaim to. There's the you as assessed by others (an external self). There's the you as in a tribal/macro sense. These are all layers of identity. You can only control your internal self - and only partially.

Not all things in your life are strictly yours to control. You don't have total self-efficacy. Your beliefs do shape your behaviors, and it does act as a feedback loop. However, it's not the sole determining factor. Those interactions and that sense of the external self aren't solely due to some ill-informed sense of self-belief. Only partially. More over, many of the subtle slights and ostracization that the average robot experiences aren't even due to active behavior on their part. They are rejected or ignored even before those behaviors can be judged or manifest. Long-term data averaged out of the external self approaches a degree of objectivity. Your internal self can choose to reject it all. That's your choice to make. Will it make a difference? Perhaps. It's better than wallowing in self-pity perhaps, but it's also blatantly biased in scope. It also may not make a difference. Reality is cruel and unforgiving.

You are basically advocating for self-delusion and bias akin to cognitive behavioral therapy. That doesn't often work in a social schemas with long-term group consensus of reality.

>>82393915
You can separate yourself from your experiences. You are the being which experiences, not the experience itself. But, this is largely irrelevant. I'm speaking mostly about your ego identity. Which you also struggle to separate from yourself.

You have 3 intertangled ideas, the self, the ego, and the experience (trauma). In your mind, there is no dividing line between these things. They are all one in the same, but beyond that you think they cannot be separated. And you believe this because it keeps your ego identity safe. If you cannot identify the ego identity and separate it from the other things, the ego doesn't have to change. It can remain the same forever. To the ego, change is death. And to a person who is consumed by their ego, they take on this belief. Change is death.
All change is to be resisted with every possible defense mechanism.

>aren't even due to active behavior on their part.
You've actually hit the nail on the head here. The behavior is "inactive", it's unconscious. It's not deliberate self sabotage in the moment. Their belief structure has conditioned them to act these ways by habit. It's how they maintain control over their lives. Same exact reason a person winds up in abusive relationship after abusive relationship.

In order to change this, you need to break the cycle. Which means changing something that you've known forever. Which means letting go of a part of yourself which you believe to be your whole self. That's why it feels impossible, because the ego will resist that and interpret it as death. Because the ego is the thing that must change, and as I said, the ego interprets change as death.

>Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.

Anyway, goodnight.