Thread 16776115

>economics is the ultimate culmination in science and math
>runs in to the brick wall of human psychology
What are your thoughts on economics?

>>16776115 (OP)
neoliberal economics is all about trying to avoid realities already seen by Marx via abusing esoteric concepts like individual "willingness to pay" as a measure of exchange value et c.
Its premises are all about making society's vampires able to get even more blood while humanistic measures are simply ignored for the sake of some multivariable money function having a maximum

>>16776121
>ia abusing esoteric concepts like individual "willingness to pay" as a measure of exchange value et c.
Doesn't Marx also believe that someone agreeing to work for someone else for an agreed rate of pay is exploitation? Why do they hate individual freedom in economics?

>>16776122
>Doesn't Marx also believe that someone agreeing to work for someone else for an agreed rate of pay is exploitation?
Short answer: no.

>>16776115 (OP)
Economist don't do science, they do hasbara for the people who own the world.

Everything people say about climate change activists, alternative energy shills, alternative medicine snake oilers or pharma grifters - all of it applies for economists, and for them it's all 100% true.

The entirety of economics academia is built on obtaining the patronage of a bipedal stack of cash and then writing a never-ending stream of papers on why the national/global economy desperately needs [thing that would benefit the bipedal moneybag] or it will literally die.

That's it, that's all of economics, 100% of it.

>>16776115 (OP)
Economics is easy.
You make or acquire goods and products which you then exchange with others.
I just taught you economics.
Economic problems: Assorted barriers in making, acquiring or trading goods and products.
Theres no psychology involved, except in negotiating exchange rates. Skilled negotiators can trade 1 apple for 2 apples.

>>16776115 (OP)

I don't agree with the caption for far left. That would be something like "prices going up because they just do".

>>16776147
Even more skilled negotiators can trade all of your money, lands, and happiness in exchange for dying for immigrants.

>>16776149
Im on the far left and I completely agree with the idiot.
Moreover economy is a 0 sum game, unlike what economists will tell you.
For someone to have money, someone else needs to owe money. (or labor which is the same)
So again the "idiots" who think that the rich are stealing from you are right.

>>16776115 (OP)
this meme becomes low effort and low iq if you just copy paste the text on right side to the left side.

>>16776115 (OP)
>>economics is the ultimate culmination in science and math
No, that would be music.

Economics is 89% psychology 0% science and 1% math

It all comes down to "people are stupid". Modern Monetary theory is "print money until your people kill you"

>>16776255
Actually sociology plays a much larger role in my experience. Economics really starts not making sense when you get into mathematical models. I read this novel theory once broadly on the subject of economics and the first half of the book was school sociology and then he plugged in his model and the variables were the most ridiculous things that you couldn't even begin to tangibly quantify like "oppression" or something.

>>16776149
>"prices going up because they just do".
They don't "just do" though, thinking the modern idea of "targeted 2-3% inlfation rate" is normal or necessary is the midwit position

its cool anon have you seen BS? shits lit

>>16776581
exactly there is absolutely no reason bread should be 2% more expensive than it was before
nothing changed

the only reason inflation exists is so the poor get poorer, while the rich get richer with safe investments which easily beat it
they are literally siphoning money from the poor without doing anything

"economists" are all midwits parroting what they were taught, except the (((ones))) who devised the whole scheme

>>16776614
inflation exists because the entire purpose of central banking is to create more money than you have

>>16776619
it's easy to beat it though once you have 5mil+, you are set
you can get 100K income from bonds to live adequately somewhere cheap, and then invest the rest for growth, which means it will double like every decade or so
it gets way easier the more money you have and you can afford a larger income

>>16776623
life isn't some stupid jewish game with fake numbers

>>16776626
should have studied hard and sucked some jewish dick in ivy league and made it

>>16776115 (OP)
Economics is for rich kids with nepo jobs who are two dumb to learn statistics but need a degree to work for daddy's investment firm.

>>16776121
>>16776122
>>16776126
Marxism is a mental disorder, not a functional economic model.

>>16776255
>Print money until people kill you
And then 100 years later pretend to be the victim while doing the same shit all over again

There's too little philosophy and history in the typical economic curricular desu.

>>16776626
Life isn't but economics is
Welcome to the world of Fiat currency and the IMF

>>16776115 (OP)
Most economics is a justification for wealth disparity, "we want the rich to get richer, lets create models that says that's good".
If the goal was a health society we would look at the economic systems of the 50s and 60s and stick with them.

Not science. Not math.

>>16776666
>Not math.
And yet it's one of the few career paths for math fags to escape homelessness

>>16776670
You're thinking of finance, not economics.

>>16776121
Karl marx got filtered by simple calculus

>>16776581
More people requires more money which causes inflation. Constant population growth being mirrored by constant inflation is a healthy sign that the population is capable of supporting itself ON AVERAGE. So most people cannot afford houses anymore in the west, yet it's far better than living next to a designated shitting street in pooland

>>16776681
>More people requires more money which causes inflation
The inflation we're talking about is expansion of the money supply beyond what is needed to cover increased population.

>>16776680
>Marxie boy was so fucking stupid he couldn't figure out basic infinitesemials and the concept of the limit.
>Japanese Marx fanboys: "MATHEMATICS IS BOURGEOIS!!!!!!!!!

I love leftists so much. Whenever they end up believing or saying retarded shit they always default to buzzwords like they are trying to wish the problem away with incantations.

>Niggers are shit at math?
>MATH IS RACIST!
>Women are shit at math?
>MATH IS SEXIST!
>Marx was shit at math?
>MATH IS BOURGEOIS!

Never gets old.

>>16776681
>More people requires more money
It actually doesn't
>Constant population growth is good
No it isn't. Transitioning to a largely automated society obligates population decrease.
>Most people in the west can't afford houses
Yes, because population increase and inflation robbery.

>>16776723
Economic fags don't care about monetary theory. They just pretend the central bank is infallible and that M3 is a BMW type.

>Ye goys Im just gonna make my own money and threaten you with prison and theft if you dont use it. Now I can print money and you dont, your money printing is called counterfeiting, while my money printing is justified somehow.
Its the biggest scam in world history after the scam of taxation and slavery. Nothing new under the sun, nothing ever happens

In a civilized society, one does not apply violence.
Instead, one pays others to apply violence for them.
Economics is the extrapolation of this concept, wherein people realized that spending their own money is a vile, savage behaviour.
The correct approach is to spend other people's money and tell them how to spend it too.

>>16776772
>the correct approach is theft and dictatorship
I see where youre coming from

>>16776776
Good, when you make it to the top remember to keep this place open and make sexism the national policy

>>16776781
Bro if I was in power I would create the right to secession and reduce regulation, taxation and state "services". I would open the currency market and make gold, silver and bitcoin legal tender. I would end the fed.

The deep state would probably assassinate me for it

>>16776630
nobody, not even any marxist who has ever existed, ever called marxism an economic model, schizo. you need to read up.
Actually, you're even more stupid than the crowd trying to "disprove" complex numbers by saying they're called imaginary numbers and thus cannot be.
>>16776680
any source beyond that ifunny meme? (there isn't one because you're just some American retard)

>>16776784
>Marxism isn't an economic model!
>The foundation of Marxism: a book titled "Das Kapital"
Mhmm. Ur so right oomfie.

>>16776800
>didn't read past the title
NTA but that explains your understanding.
Marx pointed out the fundamental flaws of capitalism but didn't provide a well reasoned alternative, this doesn't make his criticisms any less valid and we are still suffering under capitalisms flaws today.
I'm classical liberalist mixed markets with governments willing to nationalize vital sectors was about as close to perfection as we have even come, the only reason it ended is those with lots of money wanted more "passive income" aka money for nothing.
Any system that rewards doing nothing will always gravitate towards everyone wanting to do nothing so to hid this we invent titles like "landlord" and "venture capitalist" to obscure the fact these people don't do anything.

>>16776784
This is well established even if it makes you seethe. You're welcome to visit the source material from Marx himself. Not terribly challenging to find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_manuscripts_of_Karl_Marx

>>16776736
>Constant population growth is good
Who are you quoting? Those aren't my words.

>>16776614
>nothing changed
Never happens and is as much of a agreed upon lie as Dark Matter because it makes the models easier to deal with. Economics is full of these agreed upon lies that are ignored until their impacts accumulate to a level where an additional theory is added to explain the unexpected impact without acknowledging the agreed upon lie.

>>16776115 (OP)

It runs into the brick wall of exchange being pure ideology and so-called reality being an Occasional block of Laws rather than a movement of "powers", actually.

>>16776115 (OP)
Murray N. Rothbard was one of Ludwig H. E. von Mises's top students.
They didn't use statistics in economics.
They used praxeology.
Which is a novelty.

One can read Rothbard's magnum opus at:
https://mises.org

AH IM GOING INSANE, THEY JUST CANT FUCKING HELP THEMSELVES

>>16776776
The decision masters (The deciders, as George Bush used to say) contribute their voice and commands to the global civilization. Its a trade, they give commands, and receive profit.

>>16776115 (OP)
The American economic system and stock market is basically a big casino. It's all a scam.

>>16776911
>basically a big casino. It's all a scam.
theres no casino, and no scam for the most part beyond propaganda to pacify you

>>16776808
>but didn't provide a well reasoned alternative
That the alternative he provided wasn't well reasoned does not mean that he did not provide one, nor that it doesn't count as an economic model, nor that this model hasn't been attempted over and over again to disastrous results

>>16776619
Central banks print money as part of "expansionary monetary policy" aka bailing out banks and investment firms with freshly printed money, which necessarily means everyone else's money becomes less valuable. Economists exist to explain Why That's a Good Thing™, and how the private interests in the fed don't lead to corruption because THEY JUST DON'T, OKAY!?

i'm a simple man. i see someone discussing [he who shall not be named], and i stop reading.

>>16776909
Of course it would be you giving the commands instead of being on of the millions of disposable slaves plucking the fields. Also its a very good incentive for making profit if all of it is stolen by a parasitical crop of so called "elites" that contibuted nothing but their dictatorial delusions and mental diarrhea.

You only know slaves and masters, freedom seems to be foreign to you. I hate people like you. Maybe one day youll learn that people dont like to be slaves

>>16776115 (OP)
Rothbard was right. Neoliberal socialists stay sneething.

>>16776918
>nor that this model hasn't been attempted over and over again
Marxism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism all have different names because they are different.
As for disastrous results Leninism lead to the most rapid industrialism in history and China is proving today that a socialism heavy mixed market can take a country from 3rd world to superpower in ~50 years.

>>16776927
Your just speculating and conveniently dropping the fact that lenin, stalin etcetera killed more people than hitler. If you want to think clearly you need to start from first principles and see how far they reach, what they imply invariantly. For example read Mises book on socialism and you will learn from first principles what is possible and what impossible a priori.

>>16776926
>neoliberal socialists
This is the high quality sort of post I come here for.

>>16776927
>3rd world to superpower
Who cares, if you're just someone living there? You really think more than 0.001% of chinamen give a shit about that, and wouldn't immediately less internal influence for less external influence.

>>16776934
Presumably that's just a weird way of focusing on state intervention, which would be true for both.

>>16776808
>so to hid this we invent titles like "landlord" and "venture capitalist"
or "banker"

Has there ever been 1 (one) economics thread on /sci/ that wasn't a stealth /pol/ thread? I don't know why the jannies don't just ban the topic altogether especially since it's not science & math anyway.

>>16776969
Economics goes in /his/ along with climate modeling, philosophy, and all other humanities.

>>16776969
It's a topic susceptible to one guy behaviour.
And boy does c*****ism have an army of one guys.
Wish they did something productive with their lives. Like hating deadlock.

The fact that economics tends to be so politically chared just tells you what strong incentives are involved in the discipline. Many peoples paycheck depends on their particular view and unbiased economics is rare, sadly. So you can expect a lot of bad faith actors in economics.

That science has problems with it just shows the flawed incentive structure of current science itself.

>>16776980
Tell me why I should hate capitalism

>>16777055
same reason why you should hate communism
it was proven to not work
we do not have capitalism today, even if the intentions were to have communism
it failed exactly like communism failed in the USSR
so if you hate communism for that reason you should always hate capitalism

the reality is that no system will work as intended, because as soon as people find themselves at the top, human greed will prevail, and they will change the rules of the game

>>16777055
same reason why you should hate communism
it was proven to not work
we do not have capitalism today, even if the intentions were to have capitalism
it failed exactly like communism failed in the USSR
so if you hate communism for that reason, you should always hate capitalism

the reality is that no system will work as intended, because as soon as people find themselves at the top, human greed will prevail, and they will change the rules of the game

>>16776845
dead meme
>>16776784
>Nobody ever called marxisim an economic model
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHHA

Your gaslighting doesn't work on me moshi.
>Schizo
Typical jew. Lie more you dishonest piece of garbage.

>>16776808
>COMMUNISM is Not an economic model
>Marxism just explicitly targets economics as a foundation for all modern problems and creates a value theory that re-defines the sourceing and social pooling of wealth
>Totally not economics.
LOL

MENTAL DISORDER

>>16777095
Try making this post again with ranting about communism. Why should I dislike capitalism?

>>16777136
NTA but I think he's saying you should dislike capitalism unless you control M1

>>16777138
I like capitalism because it has kept me fed every single day of my life and given me endless opportunities to do something with my money. I would like to see a more National Capitalism approach where we don't do this disgusting thing with the USD where we pay interest to (((banks))) to create our own currency

>>16776115 (OP)
Economics is the greatest science humanity has ever conceived of and correctly describes all behaviors at every level.

>>16777142
You could also like a vegetable garden, a bee hive, and a petting zoo for the same reason. Explain how you get to control the money supply under National Capitalism.

>>16777146
First thing is to get the money back to the gold standard, next is to issue it ourselves instead of using a hodgepodge of banks and a "federal reserve".
If I want I can buy a bee hive, plant a vegetable garden, or even start my own petting zoo.

>>16777150
Then gold miners and people who already own gold control the money supply. That's not any better.

>>16777136
try reading comprehension

>>16776115 (OP)
I'm a third-year economics student.
I'm fine with the mathematical toolkit our department provides.
If I were younger, I would have preferred a major like Physics or Electrical and Electronics Engineering to obtain a better toolkit and apply it to finance.
Otherwise, macroeconomic problems cannot be solved without being the head of the central bank, and I honestly don't care about the politics of the economy that anons have debated for decades on this board.

>>16777152
>people who control resources benefit
Well yes, we have resources to that we can trade for the gold we need to make maintain our currency if domestic production is not sufficient. Are you claiming a currency backed by something tangible is not better?

>>16776614
>poor gets poorer
>rich gets richer
well rich meant to be rich
poor meant to be poor
It makes perfect sense from the perspective of social darwinism. The only thing that's missing is to kill the poor faggots to eliminate poverty and repopulate the world with high iq sigma gigachad rich people.

>>16777197
Better for who?

>>16777202
Rich people care about accumulating resources
Poor people care about accumulating money

>>16777205
Asset backed currency is better for the general population
Fiat currency is better for conglomerates and the government.

Fiat currency makes it much easier to accumulate wealth for corporations while it makes it easier for the government to deficit spend without the consent of the governed.

>>16777212
You didn't explain how it's better. How would letting rich people with gold control money with gold be any better than rich people with interest controlling interest? I don't think you've thought this through. I'm open to reasons.

>>16777232
Do you not understand what a currency being backed by gold means? How is it the rich controlling gold when every single bill can be brought to a bank or treasury in exchange for precious metals?

>>16777245
Have you heard what used to happen whenever a lot of people tried to do that?

>>16777252
Bank runs existing is not a good reason to have a currency that is backed by nothing.

>>16777254
Why not? How's a Scrooge McDuck vault better than printing confetti, unless you're the duck with the gold.

>>16777258
In this case the duck with the gold is the people whose currency is backed by that vault of gold instead of slips of paper owned by the person who owns the vault of gold redeemable for nothing

>>16777290
The duck with the gold just gives it away to the general public instead of the specific people who elected it?

>>16777232
Asset backed currency:

There are 1000 dollars in circulation
There is a population of 19 citizens and one king
Each citizen has 50 dollars as does the king.

The king tells all his citizens they each need to give him 20 dollars so he can fight a war and take over a neighboring country while also allowing free immigration and the export of manufacturing.

The citizens tell the king to get fucked and the country is fine.

Fiat currency:

There are 1000 dollars in circulation
There is a population of 19 citizens and one king
Each citizen has 50 dollars as does the king.

The king tells all his citizens they each need to give him 20 dollars so he can fight a war and take over a neighboring country while also allowing free immigration.

The citizens tell the king to get fucked.

The king prints 1000 more dollars immediatly spending it on a war while flooding the country with immagrants and exporting all the manufacturing.

Each citizens now only has 25 dollars, the numbers on the bill doesn't matter.

The king exports more manufacturing jobs by spending the new printed money and prints even more money... he gives that newly printed money to the imported workers.

The citizens are now poor and the king has 1,000,000,000,000 that he gives to all his other king firends so they can rape little kids and buy everything.

That's the difference.

>>16777298
How does a currency of real bills stop a king from issuing war bonds to people who have assets and paying it back to them with the blood of people who don't?

ITT: smooth brains don't know the difference between economics and finance.

Finance is mathematics, centered on resource management given a set of rules or parameters created by economic policy. Economics is philosophy, centered on deciding the axioms and principles upon which civilized societies base their resource management decisions.

It's like the difference between political science and civics. Economics is not a hard science, and can only be viewed as such if you take a set of principles as true at phase value (usually due to >your countries propaganda)

>>16777303
>Finance is mathematics, centered on resource management given a set of rules or parameters created by economic policy.
>smooth brains don't know the difference between economics and finance.
Lol what.

>>16777302
Anon you're arguing with a /pol/tard who can't even spell immigrants. Save your (you)s

>>16777306
The truth sounds foreign to the retarded, as always

>>16777307
I guess I'm sympathetic to some of his antipathy.

>>16777302
You said it yourself--buy in. The citizens have to willingly give up money to support a war with asset backed currency.

Without asset backed currency the government can and does spend money without ever needing to worry about paying it back. That was the whole reason there is no constitutional framework for banking in the constitution but there is a framework for gold or silver backed currency.

If you have asset backed currency it makes skimming off the top using credit vehicles almost impossible.

Fiat currency only is ever created to pay for war and the US has been emergency spending out of debt since the 1900s.

Article 1, section 8, clause 12 of the constitution prohibits funding the federal standing army for longer than a period of 2 years during time of war--which is why there's been endless wars since 1900.

The government literally robbed the people of all their gold to pay for the world wars and lied about everything.

>>16777293
Do you know what a reserve requirement is?

>>16777310
>finance is when you paint math on top of economic policy until the policy changes
Yeah, finance is totally different than economics.

>>16777307
>leSpelling
I don't edit. If you focus on the typos and not the message that just tells me you're the kind of guy who cares about superficial things.

>>16777306
>>16777303
Finance is an aspect of economics.

>>16777314
No, only the citizens with assets have that choice. Same as it is now.
>>16777315
Sure. Do you?

>>16777315
Currently or historically? Currently it's a lie told by the federal reserve to make them believe they cant print infinite money at a whim.

>>16777320
Yes?

>>16777322
>only the citizens with assets have that choice.
>Same as it is now.
You're really not doing yourself a favor if you're trying to seriously claim the currency we have right now is the same as one that can be redeemed for physical metals

>>16777322
>only the citzens with assets
They're all that matter. Back when the US had a small population this was ideal and crated the most powerful and technologically advanced society in recorded history.
>Same as it is now
Not true at all. You have to be in the billionaire club or one of their psychopaths to matter.

The credit creators deciede everything--which is why fiat currency is shit.

>>16777325
You're not if you claim it can. Redemption for fizz has literally never worked out for anyone except the same people who'd have been bailed out either way.

>>16777325
>Fiat currency = debt
worse, he's trying to claim debt is an asset.

>>16777327
What evidence do you have that the gold holders are more reliable than the confetti printers?

>>16777329
Where?

>>16777330
You mean other than the fact that it observably created the smallest wealth divide between rich and poor ever in recorded history or the fact that it created one of the most technologically advanced societies in recorded history?

Or are you looking for the inverse that demonstrates that fiat currency creats wealth divide and social stagnation -- which is shown very clearly from the data post 1970s when nixon took the US off the bretton woods agreement.

You can't seriously be this ignorant of the history of banking in the US and the history of the US money systems?

>>16777332
Openly state fiat currency is debt based and debt is a liability.

It undermines every argument for fiat currency made in this thread.

>>16777333
You don't get that BW is evidence against your argument, not for it? It's literally the gold (and silver) holders being unreliable.

>>16777335
Fiat currency sucks just as much as asset-backed currency, exactly, and for the same reasons.

>>16777320
Civics is an aspect of political science

>>16777328
see>>16776723

>>16777340
Why does the denominator matter?

>>16776933
You think capitalism has never killed anyone? What about cost cutting causing the Bhopal disaster or the profit motive of Dole Fruits leading to the 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état? What about the hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths in the US every year because of privatized heathcare or every worker killed by cost cutting?
Lots of people like to make the "socialism / communism kill millions" argument without thinking for themselves how many deaths can be attributed to capitalism.

>>16777336
You're telling me that being forced off the gold standard by international bankers was what the people wanted? I can't tell if you're being disingenuous or have a mental disorder. The only people that wanted this were the global bankers, not the citizens and you're delusional conflate leaving the gold standard with asset backed currency being "le-bad"

>>16777338
So you don't know the difference between a liability and and asset... I thought as much but I appreciate you confirming.

>>16777426
More people were killed by Mao in the great leap forward than died in all of WW2 and Stalin killed more people than is claimed to have died in the "holocaust" in the great purge before WW2 even started.

Marxism is a mental disorder.

>>16777339
no, civics is a general class that covers current events, history, economics and world religions.

It replaced history and economics in the public school curriculum...

Political science for people that know enough about everything to annoy their friends and family but not enough about anything to get a real job.

They are similar in that they're largely pointless fields of study made up to waste time and grift money and the major difference is one is taught as a class in highschool and the other is taught in college as part of a predatory lending scam.

Also, how dude worded his retardation implied that finance and economics are totally separate. They aren't. Finance is a sub-set field of economics. They are intimately tied. Talking about finance IS talking about economics and structuring finance is predicated on economic systems of value.

>>16777428
Here is a socialist using the same metrics used to calculate the "death toll of communism" to find a "death toll of capitalism".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIB4e8AfPcM

And if you want to see a neutral historian pointing out the issues with it and still concluding capitalism has likely killed more there is this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Dy200NYD30

I would recommend capitalist stop using the "communism kills" argument because by that same logic capitalism kills more.

>>16777435
>Watch you-tube
I will not
>Watch more you-tube
I sill will not.

If these people understood math they wouldn't be Marxist.

If you had a brain in your head you would be able to give a synopsis of their thesis but you can't, because you don't understand math either.

>>16777439
>If you had a brain in your head you would be able to give a synopsis of their thesis
The "communist toll" is based on communist casualties in every war, simply doing the same with with capitalist casualties instantly blows that number out.
Also included are those that staved under communism, doing that same with those that starved under capitalism blows that number out. As these famines are less reported the big ones are The great Indian Famine, the Irish Potato Famine, the Ethiopia Famine, the 1907 Chinese Famine (pre-communism) and the Bengal Famine.
Then there are deaths from accidents these are added to the communist toll by virtue of happening in a communist country, by that same logic every industrial, engineering and natural disaster death in every capitalist country is the fault of capitalism.

There are very few actual Marxists in the world but many that see the failings of neoliberal capitalism and want to either return to the more socialist classical liberalist mixed markets or go further left to the Nordic model.

>>16777447
>The communist toll is based on casualties in every war
I specifically said the Great Purge and Great Leap forward--these were NOT wars.

These are two specific events that killed almost 100,000,000 people.

>Starved under capitalism dwarfs those starved under communism.
lol, the great Indian famine was 1/10th of JUST Mao and Stalin and the Irish famine was 1/10,000,000th. of JUST Mao and Stalin.

Holy fuck you suck at math and are grasping at straws.

I can point to just TWO communist takeovers that you have to dig through history to even come close and half of those are overseas holdings.

I didn't even fucking have to mention Pol Pot, North Korea, the HoloDomor or most of the African despots you're going to pretend are capitalists.

I'm pretty sure you're the same guy that things debt is an asset and not a liability.

>>16777478
>can point to just TWO communist takeovers
You have had them drilled into you by capitalist propaganda, you haven't heard of the others because they don't fit the narrative of the ruling class.
>most of the African despots you're going to pretend are capitalists
Not real capitalism? Are most assets owned by individuals or the state, it's a pretty easy test.

>I'm pretty sure you're the same guy that things debt is an asset and not a liability
I'm not but if you can take a 1% loan, put it into any index fund and make more than 1% loans can indeed be used to turn a profit without doing anything productive like starting a company with suppliers, employees and customers.

>>16776122
>>16776126
Short answer: no.
Long answer: "exploitation" in a particular term in Marxian economics that defines the difference between value produced and the proportion of that value given to workers. So even socialist states had calculated "rates of exploitation" to determine how much of the value produced was spent on workers versus other projects

>>16776623
>it's easy to beat it though once you have 5mil+, you are set
It's also easy to beat it if you own land and produce your own food and other value from it.
This is why the elites want to make owning land harder for the plebs.

>>16777509
>"exploitation" ... the difference between value produced and the proportion of that value given to workers
So in the example given, a worker agreeing to work for a wage would be seen by the Marxist as exploitation since clearly they won't be as equally compensated as the employer

>>16776938
Also, neoliberals don't just typically opt for a government controlled command economy, they successfully advocate for and implement taxpayer bailouts of big banks and taxpayer subsidies to the biggest corporations, as well as in many cases a general 'welfare' state, they are essentially lite fascists, in favor of a centralized economy and society but not totally, and a centralized society is essentially what socialism is.

The west adopted the socialist idea fully in the early 20th century, and well it lead to everything that happened in the early to mid 20th century, since then they backed off a little but kept some socialism, which of course grew out of control again and is currently failing again, let's hope we learn the lessons of the 20th century and let socialism die, completely, without having to suffer too much of another cataclysm, sadly some degree of turmoil is inevitable now.

>>16776630
>RENT SEEKING IS HECKIN AWESOME!1
and then you have to pretend 100% of the problem is "jews" when rent seeking wasnt le heckin awesome after all

>>16777653
What the hell is rent seeking? Do you want to ban being able to rent a house?

>>16777645
If you honestly believe that state owns more today than in the past you might want to read this.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_the_United_States
When the state gives money to privately owned business that is called Crony Capitalism, not socialism.

>>16777661
>When the state gives money to privately owned business that is called Crony Capitalism, not socialism.
It's called fascism, which is another branch of socialism, corporate socialism, sometimes called corporatism. The names don't really matter, when you take taxpayer money by force and give it to the biggest corporations, i certainly wouldn't call that a free market, i don't know if i'd call it capitalism but i don't really care, after all Marx coined the term capitalism.

>>16776115 (OP)
It's pseudoscientific garbage.
Many theories rely on assumptions that are prima facie absurd because without them the mathematics becomes very complicated even on a micro scale, and macroeconomics becomes computationally impossible.
Ask an economist why African countries are complete shitholes despite being resource rich, and you'll get a bunch of retarded copes and hand waving (eg. "They just need to industrialize" or "much colonialism").
They'll never give the actual answer, which is "Niggers are too retarded to produce or maintain advanced, industrial economies."
One of the biggest mistakes the Western world made was allowing economic thinking influence government policy.

>>16776680
People before real analysis was invented:

>>16777697
Consider premises of profit motives, or power motives for those in politics. Economics helps illuminate some such activities they would prefer, but contradiction comes up in that the economics proper would be a pulpit and tool of such people. The modern world is in stark contrast to not just history and tradition, it is in glaring relief to even a hundred, fifty, twenty, ten years ago. The signs they want to hold up as important literally didn't fucking exist for grandma and grandpa, they didn't even exist for your older cousins. So it is a whimsical self-delusion, how can whole generations get by without such a thing, how could it be true if it has such-and-such contingency.

>>16777686
>It's called fascism, which is another branch of socialism
No, fascism is authoritarian capitalism with Russia being a great current example.

>>16777749
>fascism is authoritarian capitalism
What do you call taking money out of my wallet at gunpoint to give to a government designated company if not authoritarian capitalism?

>>16776228

What?? No, dumbass.