Thread 16806491

What most people think heaven is:

>Happy place where you see everyone you love again and are happy and your dog is there

What’s actually taught in the Bible:

>Human’s are evil from the moment they’re born
>80+ years of suffering on Earth because you deserve it
>If you want to live forever you need to believe in Jesus and do everything in your power to overcome your basic biological drives and thoughts every single day and follow every rule of worship
>Die
>Revelation happens at some point
>Wake up on a new Earth in a new “perfect” body with everyone else who got into heaven
>Your spouse and family that do make it in no longer are your spouse or family because marriage/procreation doesn’t exist here and familial blood ties are broken
>Live with like 80 trillion other people as “brothers and sisters” in a place called New Jerusalem that’s 200,000 miles tall
>God’s will and presence will literally mindwipe and brainwash you into fully conforming to him
>You see your mother isn’t there but, it’s ok, because your new “repaired” will makes you think she deserves to be in hell for her sins and you literally can’t feel sadness
>Or possiblt your memories are completely wiped away
>Worship him for eternity like this


Maybe I’m wrong but what the FUCK is this? Is my total rejection of this idea a good or a bad thing? It’s some kind of Orwellian lotus eater nightmare scenario…

>>16806491 (OP)
Religions are at best 2K years old.
Take everything with a grain of salt.
We have progressed in every single area since then, why not religions themselves?

I have studied many religions and formed my own based on the hidden truths they all contain.
I suggest you do the same.
Pick stuff that is logical but also stuff that makes you feel good, because a loving God is like the default.

Personally I believe in karma and reincarnation, but not into bugs or anything, rather a progression where your soul evolves and becomes older and wiser.
Heaven and Hell are perhaps intermediate states between reincarnations.

Apocalyptic mythologies are basically speculations that some day a divine being might be born (again??) and change our civilization's course for the better.

>>16806494
My problem is my rational mind is now directly opposing my Catholic upbringing. I feel that no God who is good would alter your mind to a point of complete conformity of will.

I find the eternal recurrance comforts me more than a heaven.

>>16806499
>I find the eternal recurrance comforts me more than a heaven.
It can feel like a prison though and it probably is.
You are trapped into reincarnating FOREVER in an eternal universe with no way of escape.
Your mind gets broken each time you do it to numb the pain.
Each time you become more and more insane to cope with it.
The only comfort is that others are trapped here with you.

For this reason I suspect heaven is real.
You do go to dwell as one with God in eternal bliss, until you choose to return if you want to.

>>16806512
Why would you go insane? You’re simply living to repeat your life in a good way, you don’t actually know you’re in a cycle or loop. Being with God on some new weird planet, subservient wholly to his will, losing your own mind literally, does not seem like happiness. Also you sound half insane and I’m looking for rational dialogue.

>>16806522
>Why would you go insane?
Cause a gilded cage is still a cage
>you don’t actually know you’re in a cycle or loop.
cause you got mindbroken to forget

> Being with God on some new weird planet, subservient wholly to his will, losing your own mind literally, does not seem like happiness.
It does because it's the exact opposite of what is going on here
Too much egoism can drive you insane.
You will eventually crave subservience to break your own ego.

>Also you sound half insane and I’m looking for rational dialogue.
Ok then bye, hope you find someone better to discuss with

>>16806526
I think you misunderstand the eternal recurrence

>>16806491 (OP)
>i need rational minds
>FOR CRISIS OF FAITH
>writes some non-rationalistic bullshit
some boohoo ha-ha jew wrote some stupid shit in c. 3 CE (new testament) and you fucking believe this after 2000 years? bro, you know why you are having your "crisis of faith(TM)"? because it's stupid, that is it, nothing more, nothing less

>>16806491 (OP)
where in the bible does it mention getting your mind altered in the afterlife?
people are supposed to worship god of their own will
although you probably would need a sacred lobotomy to live eternally without getting bored
truth is heaven/hell isn't real but without it there's zero reason for people to follow the doctrine

>>16806540
I mean yeah, that’s kind of the point of the thread you fucking retard, but thanks for the bump
>>16806542
The thought goes
>You get to the afterlife
>Your family isn’t there
>Your will is perfected, so therefore you wouldn’t care because you are fully consumed by God’s presence

So yeah mind manipulation

>>16806491 (OP)
Bro, gtfo out of here with your stupid American Christianity shit. It's the sciene, not the mental health board. Half the world is laughing at you retards, the other half hates you. If you want to be anywhere close to a respectable, NORMAL nation, you gotta stop with these delusions long disproven, among other things

>>16806603
>Half the world is laughing at you retards

It's more like 24.2% considering 75.8% of the world identifies as following some sort of religion

>If you want to be anywhere close to a respectable, NORMAL nation

10 Countries are mostly not religious whilst every other country is either Christian or Muslim with certain exceptions like Israel, India etc, It looks the the normal is being religious

I'm not religious I just like pointing and laughing at morons like yourself.

>>16806491 (OP)
Obviously, your religion is made up bullshit. You seem to realize this already. What more do you want me to say?

>>16806620
The "you retards" was pointed at US-Americans in general, especially the 40% whose religion is to suck Bibi's cock.
Did your god grant you your argument? I guess so, because it's full of shit and not even touching the point

>>16806631
I assume you have really bad eye sight or you might just be stupid.

Learn to read.

>>16806540
>after 2000 years
This isn't true for anybody, as no one lives 2000 years. Its in adulthood that people typically experience a faith crisis, then either leave forever or return after becoming a father. This has gone on for 2000 years, but we mostly aren't marrying young or dying young, anymore. The common man gets to think about the world as only the elderly, the exiled, or philosophers had. We're no longer churched into faith. Nobody should be made ashamed of taking 20-30 or even 80 years to question religion.

Why in the absolute fuck is this on sci and not x

>>16806830
jannies suck

What is actually taught in the Bible has gone through politically motivated re-translations more than once. Hell was not biblical until someone in power needed to scare the peasants into submission.
It's not some fringe claim either, it got so bad that at some point there was a "King James Only Movement" to dismiss rampant edits of the Bible. Even though KJV is already quite removed from the original.
Point is, believe what your heart tells you but use your head too. One thing you can know for sure is that if there really is a God who gave you free will, he didn't want to stop you from questioning.

>>16806491 (OP)
Most religions are stupid

When i would had to choose one religion i would take nordic mythology. This way i can pretend ragnarok already happened, gods are dead, only humans survived and there is no skydaddy anymore. Only humans making their own lifes hell.

>>16806491 (OP)
>What’s actually taught in the Bible:
This will be fun.
If you're going to make this claim, back it up with specific Bible verses.

>>16806491 (OP)
you forgot to take the hallucinogenic death-induction drugs.
physical death is for plebs who aren't real christians.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R3pfsUgtL9A

>>16807138
Isaiah 65:17 says, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”

All the new heaven and Earth stuff is the culmination of Revelation. The old things of life “will pass away”. We are taught that the ressurection and will alignment with God is real. You must misunderstand what you’re reading.

I obviously am finding this hard to rationalize and wanted to talk to like minded, scientific people.

>>16807135
That's as stupid as any other religion.

>>16807234
>For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
Well yeah, an eternity in Heaven would eventually mean forgetting the finite time in the old world.
What you need to justify is:

>>80+ years of suffering on Earth because you deserve it
>>Your spouse and family that do make it in no longer are your spouse or family because marriage/procreation doesn’t exist here and familial blood ties are broken
>>God’s will and presence will literally mindwipe and brainwash you into fully conforming to him

Another interesting one is:
>>Live with like 80 trillion other people as “brothers and sisters” in a place called New Jerusalem that’s 200,000 miles tall
Revelation is clear in saying 144,000 Jews are in the city proper. But the courtyard, reserved for the gentiles, is explicitly not measured.

If you're relying on some sort of extra biblical exegesis for these claims of yours, that's all well and good. But you said the Bible itself teaches these things which I'm not sure it does.

>>16807273
>Well yeah, an eternity in Heaven would eventually mean forgetting the finite time in the old world.
Why the fuck would anyone want this is my point

>We are told all human suffering is because of free will and the imperfection of mankind AKA it’s our fault: https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/evil

>Matthew 22:30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.“

>The sanctification is a reorienting of your will. You cannot choose evil because you won’t even concieve it in God’s presence.

Also

>Revelation 21:4
New International Version
4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

The teaching is that, even if you knew your family was in hell and seperated from you for eternity, you wouldn’t care because you’d be reoriented differently mentally

>Even so, it’s taught it will be a new planet

Nothing here is extra biblical it’s literally what is taught

>>16806491 (OP)
Midwits can't into faith

>>16807297
>Having faith for a horrible outcome
Why? Why would I want to spend eternity like that?

>>16807290
>Why the fuck would anyone want this is my point
Because life on Earth is dogshit compared to life in heaven?

>>16807290
>>We are told all human suffering is because of free will and the imperfection of mankind AKA it’s our fault:
That is distinct from saying "suffering on earth because we deserve it."
Someone playing in traffic doesn't necessarily "deserve" to be run over. But B is a natural consequence of A. What we have on Earth is not about what we "deserve."

>Matthew 22:30
I will accept that.

>The sanctification is a reorienting of your will. You cannot choose evil because you won’t even concieve it in God’s presence.
Where did you pull this from?

>>16807290
>He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[a] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
What follows from this statement is not necessarily this:
>you’d be reoriented differently mentally

>Nothing here is extra biblical it’s literally what is taught
You are describing a particulare exegesis which many Christians do not follow.
That's not "from the Bible." That's elaboration after the fact.

>>16806491 (OP)
That is the lame ass revised version.
In the original humans were created to be slaves, so the lesser gods could rest. Cattle can only hope to live until they die of old age. Only very few are selected for being useful and extremely competent to serve as house niggas. That's it, no heaven, no hell.

>>16807301
Heaven sanding away your human choices and removing marriage/sexuality entirely for an eternity praising God sounds nightmarish compared to life here. According to this line of thinking you would see your loved ones in hell and say “they deserve it” or worse forget them entirely.

>https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-i-make-emotional-sense-out-of-suffering-when-it-happens
“Original Sin” is Adam eating a fruit. Adam wasn’t real. There is no basis in reality that “original sin” is anything other than human nature, and we’re being punished for it.

>where do you pull this from?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/what-is-heaven-really-like
>How we will be able to know of the existence of the damned without being pained by it is a mystery, but we can only conclude that the glorified human mind will be configured in such a way that it is able—without pain—to recognize both God’s justice and the free choices of men that led to damnation.

Your human mind will be replaced with one where you are fully oriented towards God and can not feel what you once felt. You won’t sin or have free will because you will not want to have any other will but God’s. Your will is gone. It is supplanted with God’s will and sense of justice, meaning you’d be happy the “evil” are in hell (your grandma forgot to go to confession a few times)

So yes the wiping away all tears line directly leads into this, directly from Catholic teaching, and I think you vastly misunderstand the gravity of it

>>16806491 (OP)
I do not under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES want to end up in heaven.
It sounds like the worst nightmare imaginable.... and you're trapped there forever.
I cannot imagine a worse torture than being in heaven for all eternity and longer.
I would rather have eternal unknowable darkness as far from that shit as imainable and anyone who doesn't understand this should READ WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY ABOUT HEAVEN and if that sounds 'great' to you you're fucking mentally-ill.
Me, I'm not going into that light.
Keep it.
Fuck your holy spirit with a big sack of razor-blades, dumbass!
Keep that shit to yourself, you truly evil fuckers!

>>16807234
That was made on the fly to keep some assholes in power.
The old testament is trash-tier fan fiction. Marcion was right when he rejected that satanic nonsense and other drug fueled hallucinations like the rEvElAtIoNs. The Book of Enoch is far better fan fiction, but still satanic. The only thing we know for sure is that jews who hate Christ are evil.

>>16807319
>directly from Catholic teaching
That was my whole point in all of this. It's coming from Catholic teaching and NOT the Bible.
That's not inherently "wrong" because of this. But you ARE relying on extra biblical exegesis and NOT The Bible itself. Which if fine, Sola Scriptura is anathema anyway, but understand this is the perspective you're coming from.

>>16807379
Catholicism is considered the most true of all the demoninations though

>>16807435
*according to Catholics.

>>16806491 (OP)
can you add citations that show from what you deriving those conclusions or interpretations. as a Christian you need to be like Jesus. it's a waste of your energy to worry about these minor details that I don't think you are interpreting correctly. all that matters is what Jesus did and said. trust me, god will reward you just like he did Job. you've read job, right?

the thing about job though is that God directly interacted with the mortal world back then, he doesn't do that anymore. christians are on their own now and the reward is not anything in this mortal realm. literally do what Jesus would do, that's all he wants

you are one of the beings that God created that has free will, knowledge of good and evil; and he wants to see what you will do with that privilege. beings without free will are of no use to him and neither are beings who abuse their free will and knowledge of good/evil. and the Bible is not the end of the story and it's probably impossible for anyone to truly comprehend what is to come

you should do whatever makes you happy but don't be hedonistic. hedonism is a destructive path to take. be religious if you want. most people are religious or at least spiritual and it doesn't seem like that will change any time soon

I'm not talking about epicurean hedonism, I'm talking about modern selfish, intellectually bankrupt, creativity deprived, human trash, hedonism. there is a big fucking difference