>>509846648
>Fiat isn't money, it's a debt obligation. It has NO intrinsic value.
I agree. Still I earn in (mostly fictional) fiat currency and am required to pay with (mostly fictional) fiat currency for anything I want or need.
>What is money? It' is a MEDIUM (not token) of exchange.
Ok, now I know you're dishonest. Or live in a fictional alternative world born of your own imagination.
>First, the medium of exchange [wall of text]
Show me a capitalist economy with a monetary system you approve of.
>The fact you have found some utility for fiat to exchange for goods and services doesn't make it money,
Show me a capitalist economy with a monetary system you approve of.
>NOR is fiat a store of value.
It is, just a really shitty one which bleeds value over time.
Show me a capitalist economy with a monetary system you approve of.
>The tangible things you bought with the fait are far closer in reality to money than the fiat itself was.
Why would I care about this?
You're actually deluded or dimwitted. The word you should be using is WEALTH. Yes, fiat currency or fictional fiat currency is NOT WEALTH. And WEALTH is what, in capitalism, you spend fiat or fictional fiat currency to acquire. Yes, that's true. Yes, I agree with you that (today mostly fictional) FIAT CURRENCY IS NOT WEALTH but merely CLAIMS ON WEALTH. And that WEALTH is what you spend (today mostly fictional) FIAT CURRENCY TO ACQUIRE.
But the word is WEALTH. NOT MONEY.
Now show me a capitalist economy with a monetary system you approve of.
>Put your 1000 lei in a box and bury it for fifty years. Spend the 1000 lei on a gold chain and do the same. Dig them both up and see which one was a better store of value.
Again, we already agree that:
1. Fiat currency or fictional fiat currency is NOT WEALTH.
2. WEALTH is wat you spend fiat currency or fictional fiat currency ON, in order to ACQUIRE.
3. Fiat currency is merely claims on wealth.
>real money
You mean WEALTH.
>"captialist" system becomes
Is a ponzi scheme.

>>509270295
Further increasing the pressure to print more and ever faster is the propensity of a large part of the population and also some corporations and businesses to NOT spend all the fiat currency they receive as wages, dividends, rents, royalties or payments for goods sold or services rendered as soon as they receive said fiat currency. And instead electing to sit on part of their income as fiat currency savings in a bank. Which parks that fiat currency out of circulation, at least for a while, and thus contracts the circulating supply of fiat currency by expanding the parked supply of fiat currency. Which, in turn, makes it necessary for new fiat currency to be created and injected into circulation (by giving it to people and businesses who don't have fiat currency they would nevertheless like to spend and are willing to borrow it from a bank in order to spend it) to replace, in circulation, the fiat currency which has been parked, out of circulation, by people and business who keep at least part of their savings as fiat currency in a bank.
Yet another intrinsic, fundamental, systemic problem of the capitalist model is that fiat currency flows within it are uneven and asymmetric. For example, people pay more to businesses as payment for their goods or services than people receive back from businesses as wages, dividends, rent or royalties. This is because ALL businesses have at least expenses towards other businesses, such as suppliers and subcontractors, utilities companies. This means that people, as a whole and as a class of economic agent, pay more, on average, to businesses, as a whole and as a class of economic agent, than businesses pay back to people as wages, dividends, rent or royalties. The difference has to be perpetually made up from and through consumer credit. Which is people constantly borrowing money to make up the shortfall/discrepancy between what they need to pay for goods and services they need or want and what they themselves are paid.

>>509211820
There are 2 types of fiat currency:
1. Physical cash and coins printed, minted or coined by the central banks (or for them by private businesses under exclusivity contracts with the central banks).
2. Money of account. This is fictional cash and coins which don't exist physically and are just promises to pay cash or coins, in the same nominal amount, to the holder, on demand. They exist on the ledgers of the banking system.
Banks have been granted the right to "legally" deceive the entirety of society that the second type of fiat currency is the same as the first or that it doesn't exist, with the implication being that the second type of fiat currency is actually the first type when it really isn't. The proof that these two are not the same type of fiat currency, and also the proof that there is *A LOT* more of the second type in existence than the first, is that banks can run out of the first type of fiat currency to honour "withdrawal" requests against the second type, by depositors who think they're the same thing, and to avoid that happening, there are laws on the books in every country to force private individuals and businesses to store their physical fiat currency notes and coins, above a meagre amount, in banks and thus only use the second type of fiat currency for their larger transactions. In addition to this, convenience and online purchases ensure that most people prefer the second type of fiat currency.
While only central banks control the creation and issuance into circulation in the economy of the first type of fiat currency, any non-central bank anywhere can issue more of the second type of fiat currency into circulation. They do this by pretending to "lend" the first type of fiat currency to willing borrowers. But in actual fact, they just create more of the second type of fiat currency when they approve the "loan" (which is actually credit and not a loan) and issue it to the borrower. Or a credit card holder pays for something with it.

>>508904115
There are 2 types of fiat currency:
1. Physical cash and coins printed, minted or coined by the central banks (or for them by private businesses under exclusivity contracts with the central banks).
2. Money of account. This is fictional cash and coins which don't exist physically and are just promises to pay cash or coins, in the same nominal amount, to the holder, on demand. They exist on the ledgers of the banking system.
Banks have been granted the right to "legally" deceive the entirety of society that the second type of fiat currency is the same as the first or that it doesn't exist, with the implication being that the second type of fiat currency is actually the first type when it really isn't. The proof that these two are not the same type of fiat currency, and also the proof that there is *A LOT* more of the second type in existence than the first, is that banks can run out of the first type of fiat currency to honour "withdrawal" requests against the second type, by depositors who think they're the same thing, and to avoid that happening, there are laws on the books in every country to force private individuals and businesses to store their physical fiat currency notes and coins, above a meagre amount, in banks and thus only use the second type of fiat currency for their larger transactions. In addition to this, convenience and online purchases ensure that most people prefer the second type of fiat currency.
While only central banks control the creation and issuance into circulation in the economy of the first type of fiat currency, any non-central bank anywhere can issue more of the second type of fiat currency into circulation. They do this by pretending to "lend" the first type of fiat currency to willing borrowers. But in actual fact, they just create more of the second type of fiat currency when they approve the "loan" (which is actually credit and not a loan) and issue it to the borrower. Or a credit card holder pays for something with it.

>>508221474
Further increasing the pressure to print more and ever faster is the propensity of a large part of the population and also some corporations and businesses to NOT spend all the fiat currency they receive as wages, dividends, rents, royalties or payments for goods sold or services rendered as soon as they receive said fiat currency. And instead electing to sit on part of their income as fiat currency savings in a bank. Which parks that fiat currency out of circulation, at least for a while, and thus contracts the circulating supply of fiat currency by expanding the parked supply of fiat currency. Which, in turn, makes it necessary for new fiat currency to be created and injected into circulation (by giving it to people and businesses who don't have fiat currency they would nevertheless like to spend and are willing to borrow it from a bank in order to spend it) to replace, in circulation, the fiat currency which has been parked, out of circulation, by people and business who keep at least part of their savings as fiat currency in a bank.
Yet another intrinsic, fundamental, systemic problem of the capitalist model is that fiat currency flows within it are uneven and asymmetric. For example, people pay more to businesses as payment for their goods or services than people receive back from businesses as wages, dividends, rent or royalties. This is because ALL businesses have at least expenses towards other businesses, such as suppliers and subcontractors, utilities companies. This means that people, as a whole and as a class of economic agent, pay more, on average, to businesses, as a whole and as a class of economic agent, than businesses pay back to people as wages, dividends, rent or royalties. The difference has to be perpetually made up from and through consumer credit. Which is people constantly borrowing money to make up the shortfall/discrepancy between what they need to pay for goods and services they need or want and what they themselves are paid.