>All of the gods in Warhammer are just shards of the 4 Chaos gods
Thoughts?

>>96016075 (OP)
Nobody cares about warhammer fantasy anymore.

>>96016075 (OP)
Boring

>>96016075 (OP)
Makes the setting feel smaller and less interesting

>>96016075 (OP)
Extremely gay and lame. Chaosfagging is half of what's ruined 40k, it doesn't need to infect fantasy too.

>>96016075 (OP)
How did this impact your last game night?

>>96016075 (OP)
>today's thoughtsfag post is also an antiwarhammer aaaaand antichaos spam
That isn't even what that bit says.

>>96016221
>posts screenshot of wfb lore
>"antiwarhammer" "antichaos" "spam"
It's not his fault the fluff sucks

>>96016205
This is old lore and has always been that way

>>96016075 (OP)
Contradicted by other material, so take your pick.

According to the most consistent view, this is not exactly wrong, per se, but way too simplistic. If the other gods are portions of the chaos gods, they are actively harmful portions the chaos gods want to destroy. The elf gods were explicitly created as weapons. What happens when the gods of men and elves and dwarfs grow stronger and the portion of the chaos gods they represent grows? Consider why the Slann decided that the creation of Sotek was according to the Great Plan.
The gods are exactly what they need to be.

>>96016075 (OP)
Exclusive to 6th, actually. They realised it was retarded- shocking I know -and was retconned into just being the ravings of madmen.

>>96016075 (OP)
Warhammer has shit worldbuilding and consistency so talking about it is just pointless.

>in universe propaganda from a compromised retard
My thought is if you take it seriously you're even dumber than an ogre.

>>96017676
I mean retarded as it is it at least explains why all the warhammer gods are so dumb and inept. Sigmar and Ulric not sorting out their cults makes much more sense if they're both actually Khorne.

It isn't a good explanation at all but at least it's an explanation and not just an oddity that's glossed over entirely.

A better explanation is in one of the WFRP2e books that says the good gods try not to do much directly because it weakens the barrier between worlds and lets the chaos gods fuck with mortals more, but I guess that's not grimderp Religion Bad enough.

>>96016075 (OP)
WHFRP 1e had the best interpretation of the setting where it was funny British DnD. Norscans were more or less normal people (reek of herring though) while the forces of Chaos were comprised entirely of Dark Cultist type assholes who got seduced by the whispers of explicitly evil gods who competed with the other gods for control.

>>96018232
I miss when chaos warriors were just evil knights and not edgelord space marines.

>>96018269
And I miss when the High Elves were fruity hedonists and Ulthuan was a giant pleasure island. This wasn’t written to say Elves were evil btw, it was a snark on how Elves in LotR would be rancid libertines because they’re all hot and ageless and live in paradise.

Oh and Orcs had women, and loved going to war to stay away from their nagging wives. The lore was so fucking stupid, but there was a purity to it.

>>96018368
Fairly patrician, but I prefer even further back when there was no Ulthuan and elves were just weirdos living innawoods or on the coasts.

>>96016195
Writing that chaos wins no matter what was dumb enough, tieing EVERYTHING to the chaos gods was just insufferable. IIRC in 6e it's also canon that tzeentch controls all mortal beings so any purpose to the setting is further wasted for nihilismwanking.

>>96016254
>wfb lore
Doesn't exist anymore. It's been owerwriren by ToW's Chinese propaganda.
Chaos symbolizes USA, UK, Japan and Mongolia or some shit

>>96016206
How does it feel knowing no one else agrees with you? Everyone else is perfectly fine with discussing lore and other things not strictly related to games and game mechanics. And every time you make a post like this, you either get mocked relentlessly or just flat out ignored. This board will never be what you want it to be.

>>96020020
Yeah, it makes it feel like a complete waste of time engaging with the fluff end of the game for anybody who isn't a chaosfag

>>96016205
Retconning Lorgar's home planet to "deceived chaos worshippers" was the worst piece of lore ever.

>>96016075 (OP)
If you mean the last paragraph, that's not what it's saying. Being "part of Chaos" in this context is just existing in the Empyrean. Which we've always known was the deal all the way back with Solkan.

>>96016075 (OP)
That's not what that page says though. It's saying the Dark Gods are just shards of Chaos. Actually learn reading comprehension you fucking retard.

>>96020486
But that source (WFRP 1st edition) also said that Chaos will inevitably one day devour the world because Law Gods are just one of its minor aspects.

>>96020333
do the chaos fanboys even like it? doesn’t it make everything feel cheap if it’s truly inevitable for chaos to win? why even pay attention at that point

Deepest lore about the lawful aspect of Khorne from times before Malal and Emperor weren't even conceived in some bong's addled mind.

>>96020542
Well clearly some of them must since why else would they have written this shite into the settings

>>96020557
That's not deep lore at all. Khorne is all about giving out rules and edicts to his followers. He's the most lawful chaos god.

>>96020542
>>96020576
Something something muh grim and muh dark.

Given GW's track record maybe they just want to see how much actual shit their audience will willingly consume and put up with, pic related. GW treats its playerbase worse than the likes of EA ever did.

I can't see even big chaos fans liking the fluff. Their armies get coddled hardcore. Everyone else struggles to barely get by in the fluff but chaos is always handled with extra soft kid gloves and their players always reassured that no matter what happens, they'll win the day. The chaos gods are always in control and always on top, it's all according to plan(tm).

>>96020542
>doesn’t it make everything feel cheap if it’s truly inevitable for chaos to win?
No, why would it?

>>96023689
Because we saw what a total Chaos victory looks like, and it was so poorly received the sequel game completely panders to “the good guys” to the point you realize the good guys are indistinguishable from Chaos in the old lore.

>>96018222
>Sigmar and Ulric not sorting out their cults makes much more sense if they're both actually Khorne.
Gods can't "sort their cults" if mortals don't sort their grievances. Gods are symbiotic on mortals, not above and separate from them. The only hypothetical exception would potentially have been Nagash, but even he stood up cults and worshipers.

>>96023703
Chaos eventually destroying everything is just a metaphysical thing. It's like the heat death of the universe or ragnarok.
People get so fucking weird and tribal about factions, treating them like football teams. The destruction of the universe by chaos isn't 'the chaos team winning', it's an event within a fictional setting. And one that fits the themes of the world, which, after all was originally inspired by the Elric stories which conclude in basically the same way.

>>96023703
>Because we saw what a total Chaos victory looks like
Okay, and how is that cheap?

>>96023737
Considering AoS implies that the same four chaos gods will always show up and always be the ultimate “victors”, it does kind of make the entire struggles of all the other guys kind of fruitless if we’re to take the words of the creators at face value and not presume it’s to glaze the face of the Chaos faction to color the setting. Skipping to the end of a book doesn’t necessarily ruin the entire story, but it does lose most of the fun of anticipation and surprise when the outcome is already determined.

>>96023885
That's kind of fundamental though, innit. The same is true for all of us - we're all going to die eventually. We know how it ends.

It's all about how you frame it. In Warhammer, the end is always coming, but it's the heroism of the characters that prevents it ending today. Through sacrifice and struggle they enable one more day in the sun. And maybe it can be delayed almost indefinitely. I like that, in a Dylan Thomas-y kind of way.

>>96016075 (OP)
The 4 aren't even all the chaos gods anymore. AOS has 5 and 30k has implied the existence of eight, one for each point of the star, with only half currently awake/alive and the other 4 destined to exist in some form eventually.

>>96016571
It wasn't. Gav Thorpe and Toumas both said it's true.
Even Rick Priestley.

>>96023885
In TEATD the Emperor almost becomes the fifth chaos god, this makes a bunch of old nonsense daemons had been jabbering about for ages start to seem like a dark prophesy of ultimate doom.

But a team of people manage to convince tge Emperor not to go through with his mindless quest for power, he releases the might of chaos and all those dark prophecies immediately degenerate back into demonic rambling again.

Demons insist on their inevitable victory because the warp is a place where believing in something makes it real. They went in deep on that Law of Attraction self help BS but because they're made up entirely out of vibes it kinda works.

>>96024117
When did they say this?

>>96023955
I admittedly don’t. If you told me as a greenskins fanboy they were the planned winners from the beginning, I’d call it lame too. I’d rather let the players make up their own endings to who is the final “victor” rather than there being a singular no-point-of-return ending.

>>96024155
Did you miss the talk about the Dark King already being in the Warp and is just waiting to be born, and that it's eventually going to happen? The Emperor wasn't the one but it's implied that Abaddon will be the one. It would explain why the Chaos Gods cannot corrupt.

Samus was born from Loken's death and Samus is a Dark King daemon.

In Era of Ruin, Erebus talks about the rise of the King in Darkness.

>>96024165
>Do you want the 'real' answer, on the answer as perceived by an educated inhabitant of the Warhammer world.

>In real terms, as described in Hordes of Chaos, all gods are but aspects of the four Great Powers. Think of four overlapping circles within a larger circle. The large circle is Chaos, or what we refer to in the rules as Chaos Undivided. Within that are the four Great Powers. Where they overlap, there are concurrent and conflicting entities which bear portions of the vague consciousness of the Great Powers. Any lesser god will be a dot or smaller circle overlapping the diagram across the relevant Greater Powers. The example of the Horned Rat is a good one, as it is obviously dominated by Nurgle, but does have elements of Tzeentch in there as well.

>If you are talking about perceptions of the inhabitants, then they are unaware of the above (or driven mad by it if they find out!). They are aware that there is a large pantheon of gods, includig the four Great Powers. To them, each is distinct, although some may have different names for the same gods, for example, the marauder peoples have many different names for the Great Powers, and some may even have several names for the same Great Power.

-Gav Thorpe

Toumas said in a seminar that everything comes from Chaos and will return to Chaos. Chaos is the alpga and omega. The creator and destroyer.

>>96023955
A story having a badly written ending can't be excused with "well we also die RL". It would also be no better if orcs, empire, skaven or whoever was the ultimate victor. It's exceedingly lame and only exists for the writers to suck themselves off over how cool they perceive their OC to be.

Fitting that Warhammer is basically a rip of Elric, which was Moorcock sucking his own cock, which ripped LOTR, also Tolkien blowing himself.

>>96024218
Was this transcribed or written? Why does Gav talk/type like such a fag?
>Mmmmyes, theyvare but only aspecte of the Great Four *strokes mustache*

>>96024596
Written on the Warseer forum.

>>96024596
>>96024608
>why is gav such a fag?
>pronouns in bio
There's your answer.

>>96020392
Wait, what? How was Lorgar's home planet before the retcon?

>>96024569
>It would also be no better if orcs, empire, skaven or whoever was the ultimate victor.
It's different because Chaos is a cosmic force.
Chaos not winning would be like if America, Iran, China, or Entropy had equal chances "winning" the universe.

>>96016075 (OP)
Nah.

>>96024854
Entropy is mindless and physical. Chaos is sentient and metaphysical. It's literally a faction of cackling bad guys led by cackling evil gods, whatever limp lovecraft pseudism its writers want to disguise it as.

>>96024975
>Entropy is mindless and physical. Chaos is sentient and metaphysical.
Doesn't matter, it's a cosmic force. It being malicious is simply part of the reason why it's a grimmer world than our own.

>>96025020
That logic doesn't work the way you think it does.
>grimmer world than our own
Yeah, that's why it's not the same thing.

>>96025070
>Yeah, that's why it's not the same thing.
Did I say it was the same thing, or did I compare two different things that shared elements?
That's right, the latter.

>>96025088
Sure, if you squint and ignore all the ways they're different, they're totally comparable and it totally excuses the grimderp writing.

>>96025423
They are comparable, and it is dark writing.
I'm not sure what your problem is.

>>96025479
There’s nothing dark about “lol chaos wins every time”, especially when it’s always the same four jagoffs winning every time instead of some other force coming into ascendance, it’s boring

>>96025513
>There’s nothing dark about “lol chaos wins every time”
1. They don't win every time, they just win in the end.
2. That is dark.

>>96025524
1. That’s literally just restating that they win
2. It’s not, it’s the most boring outcome possible

>>96025540
>1. That’s literally just restating that they win
No it's not. A war can consist of many battles, one can be destined to win the war, but not win every battle. They will win in the end, but not win every time.
>2. It’s not, it’s the most boring outcome possible
Most people would see inevitable doom as being dark. Where does dark preclude boring anyway? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not dark.

>>96025479
>>96025563
It's GRIMdark specifically, but that's Warhammer for you. It's supposed to be edgy grimderp: the setting and chaos has been the "dev faction" since day one because it's the premiere edgelord faction.

I think Warhams is shit and grimdark is shit but then again I also think anchovies are shit, so I just don't eat anchovies.

>>96025563
“lol it doesn’t matter if chaos keeps losing cause they win in the end hurrrrrrrrr” is Saturday morning cartoon villainogic. And that’s boring and lame as shit. There’s nothing dark about a faction who insists that they’re the most darkest and edgiest but have nothing to lose in any conflict cause they “win in the end”

>>96025600
>There’s nothing dark about a faction who insists that they’re the most darkest and edgiest but have nothing to lose in any conflict cause they “win in the end”
How is there nothing dark about evil demons inevitably conquering reality and devouring the souls of all mankind?

>>96025600
It's boring and it's stupid but it's grimdark and that's all the writers care about.

>>96025621
Cause those demons are retarded clowns, anon. They’re not the least bit scary with how little personality they have. The average cardboard cutout is scarier. Hell, the average anon’s stool is darker. And most don’t know anything about interior decoration.

>>96025695
>They’re not the least bit scary with how little personality they have.
Rabid dogs don't have much personality, but I wouldn't want to be locked into a room with one.
>The average cardboard cutout is scarier.
A cardboard cutout cannot hard you under most circumstances.
If a retarded clown killed everyone you loved and ate their souls I'd think you'd consider that to be pretty dark.

>>96025723
> If a retarded clown killed everyone you loved and ate their souls I'd think you'd consider that to be pretty dark.
No, I’d think it’s fucking retarded, especially if he kept itoning “you can never escape your fate we clowns always get the last laugh” while honking his crotch in my face while blowing raspberries and going “ooooooooh bloooood for the blooooooood cluwnnnnnneee whoooooooo” every five seconds

>>96025747
>No, I’d think it’s fucking retarded
I doubt it.

>>96025761
Dunno, I consider you a retarded clown, anon

>>96025772
That's a non-sequitur.

>>96025695
>>96025747
It IS dark anon, just in the same way shit like Jeff the Killer is dark. It's juvenile edginess. Chaos is the kid in a fedora and fingerless gloves who lives with his grandma and calls her a whore for asking him to say grace at dinnertime, then quickly complies when she threatens to take his phone away.

>>96025797
Point is, Chaos isn’t dark, it isn’t scary, and it’s not edgy anymore. Saying “they always win in the end” is a cope, not any thematic. If anything, it makes the forces of Chaos look pathetic that the narrative can’t even give a convincing reason they’ll win beyond “it just happens”. No chance of the Imperium achieving Big G’s dream of evolving into a new superhumanity untouched by Chaos. No chance of the Eldar redeeming their tragic mistakes by permanently destroying the aspect of Chaos they brought into ascendance. No chance of the Necrons rebuilding their ancient empires permanently. No chance of the Orks, Tyranids, or Tau taking humanity’s place as top dog of the galaxy and leaving Chaos in the dust. Not even a chance of some other group like the Cythor fiends or Hrud or whoever coming in from behind for an unexpected chance at reshaping the galaxy in their image. It’s Chaos who is the end all be all cause…Well, just cause, okay?

Chaos is lame. In WHF, 40k, and AoS.

>>96025890
Sums it up yeah.

>>96025890
>Point is, Chaos isn’t dark, it isn’t scary, and it’s not edgy anymore.
I think you're just burned out and can't process fiction any more. I'd be scared of Chaos if it were real.
>Saying “they always win in the end” is a cope, not any thematic.
No, it's definitely thematic.
>the narrative can’t even give a convincing reason they’ll win
The reason is always the same, the stuff of Chaos is corrosive to reality. The world is in a giant acid bath essentially.
>It’s Chaos who is the end all be all cause…Well, just cause, okay?
Because it's a cosmic force of destruction and warhammer is all about dark fantasy.

>>96025942
You legitimately have no idea what you are talking about. Your reasoning amounts to “Chaos wins because Chaos wins in other dark fantasy stories” when that’s nowhere goddamn true. I just listed multiple possible ways the galactic wars of 40k could plausibly go, and you have no explanation for why they can’t happen beyond “They’re not the writer’s pet faction”. Please stop posting.

>>96026021
>Your reasoning amounts to “Chaos wins because Chaos wins in other dark fantasy stories” when that’s nowhere goddamn true.
No. My reasoning is that it's thematic for Chaos to win because it's dark, and wahammer is dark fantasy.
>I just listed multiple possible ways the galactic wars of 40k could plausibly go
Where you said something like
>WHAT IF MY TEAM WON INSTEAD?
Well I'd guess they'd win, wouldn't they? But it's not very thematic.

>>96026066
You keep saying “it’s thematic”. You know it’s just as thematic for the forces of a tyrannical despotic force for Order like say the Imperium or a spiteful brutal force for Destruction like say the Tyranids to win, right? Just like it’s thematic for a faction that is willing to sacrifice everything to spitefully take down their arch nemesis ala Captain Ahab ans Moby Dick, like the Eldar race to Slaanesh, right? All that shit is just as much a staple of darker fantasy works. What makes them not “thematic” enough?

>>96026118
Because the destruction of the world and eternal torment of the soul is a darker fate than "government I don't like" or even "space bugs eat everyone."
So it's a fitting finale for the setting that spawned the term grimdark.

>>96026167
No, it’s really not. That’s just “coldsteel the hedgehog” levels of shallow and boring.

>>96026201
No, you're coldsteel the hedgehog if you pretend you can't see the horror in the world going to hell.

>>96025942
Warhammer isn't dark fantasy, it's grim dark fantasy. Big difference. Dark fantasy is the shit, grim dark fantasy is just shit.

That said, NTA you're arguing with, but while Chaos fits the theme of grim defeatist nihilism, I can't see how that makes for an interesting story or setting. It's grim and dark but predictable and boring IMO. And the pretentious manner in which the writers explain it comes off as pretty gay.

>>96026224
I can legitimately think of worse. I could imagine the God-Emperor being reborn as everything humanity wished of him to be and forcibly evolving humans into something horrible and unrecognizable, if he doesn’t just swallow all of humanity whole and start remaking the cosmos as his plaything worse than even Tzeentch can achieve. I could imagine the Eldar succeeding in killing Slaanesh only to cause a far worse psychic backlash that turns them into monsters even the Dark Eldar would fear, or something even more strange and unknowable. I could imagine the endless wars re-evolving the Orks back into the Krork and with Mork and Gork’s patronage outright scheme to wage war on gods wel beyond Chaos. I can imagine the Tau winning but having to live with the fact their faith in the Greater Good has birthed a daemon more abnormal and weird than just the forces of Chaos that they may inevitably lead them to fight their own creation. I could even see either the Necrons or Tyranid settling into the remains of the emptied galaxy for a fight against the things trying to reach from outside the galaxy, like it was the Xelee Seequence or something.

Your “nothing is worse than hell” spiel falls flat to the idea of someone actually getting one up over on the forces of entropy and remaking the galaxy into something far weirder and scarier at will.

>>96026282
>it's grim dark fantasy.
No, that's not a real thing.

>>96026320
>Your “nothing is worse than hell” spiel falls flat to the idea of someone actually getting one up over on the forces of entropy and remaking the galaxy into something far weirder and scarier at will.
Sorry, but nothing is scarier than hell.

>>96026345
You have an insanely limited imagination, and should stop posting henceforth

>>96026357
Bro, all your examples were, "what if the faction turned into scary monsters..."
Scary monsters are not as scary as eternal damnation.

>>96026326
>he says in a thread about the game that coined the genre of grimdark fantasy

>>96026396
It spawned the term grimdark, but not all terms need or have a dedicated fiction subgenre.

>>96026385
Thing is, if you actually read Chaos’s fluff, that’s not how it works. Chaos winning means your soul inevitably gets snuffed out. Your suffering is mighty, but it still ends. Any other faction winning doesn’t give you the chance to tap out at any point. Ergo, Chaos winning is the least scary outcome. You utter moron.

>>96026430
>Your suffering is mighty, but it still ends.
No, because the immaterium is a place beyond time. You can suffer eternally there.
>Any other faction winning doesn’t give you the chance to tap out at any point.
You can just kill yourself if nothing else.

>>96026417
Yes they do, and yes they have, unless you (objectively incorrectly) think all dark fantasy is equally as dark or darker than Warhammer.

>>96026452
Jesus, you are an idiot

>>96026477
>Yes they do, and yes they have
Cool, show me the supercalifragilisticexpialidocious-core novels.
>unless you (objectively incorrectly) think all dark fantasy is equally as dark or darker than Warhammer.
Show me the quantifiable scale for literary darkness.

>>96026483
Jesus would recognise that a peril to the soul is more deadly than any scary monster.

>>96026526
If you don’t even grasp the basic idea of souls inevitably extinguishing in the warp, one of the fundamental points of the warp, then there’s no further point in discussing anything f

>>96026513
Are you ESL?

>>96026542
They can be extinguished in the warp. Doesn't mean they will be when Chaos is ascendant and take your soul.

>>96026547
>Are you ESL?
No, are you?. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is a term. You said all terms have a dedicated fiction subgenre, so show that one to me.

>>96026558
Nice head canon, still not worth discussing

>>96026620
Read anything to do with the realms of chaos, they're full of tormented souls.

>>96026513
>Show me the quantifiable scale for literary darkness.
Easy one.
"The world is doomed if the heroes fail, and their success is not guaranteed" and "The world is doomed no matter what, and the heroes were helping the villains all along" are two distinct levels of dark writing.

>>96016075 (OP)
>THE CHAOS GODS ARE BUT FAKE GODS, TRAITORS TO THE ONE TRUE CHAOS GOD WE CALL THE EMPEROR
>AS YOURSELF WHY IN SPITE OF ALLEGED CONFLICTS, THEY ALWAYS TEAM UP AND WHY EVERCHOSENS AND ABADDON/HORUS MANAGED TO GET THEM TO WORK TOGETHER AGAINS THE EMPEROR? WHY THEY'RE ALWAYS THE SAME AND UNCHANGING IN AESTHETIC OR VIBE DESPITE CALLING THEMSELF "CHAOS"?
>IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE BUT GODS OF ORDER, WHO BACKSTABBED OUR ONE TRUE CHAOS GOD-EMPEROR AND KEPT HIM IMPRISONED IN TERRA
>ALL THE PRIMARCHS ARE TRAITORS, THE ONES OPENLY SERVING THE FALSE CHAOS GODS OR THE PRETEND LOYALISTS KEEPING HIM ALIVE AND UNABLE TO REINCARNATE
>SEE THE TYRANIDS COMING TO TERRA, THEY ARE THE EMPEROR'S ATTEMPT TO DESTROY HIS MORTAL PHYSICAL PRISON AND RECLAIM HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE FROM THE USURPERS
>TO SERVE OUR BELOVED CHAOS EMPEROR, WE MUST DESTROY ALL OF THE TRAITORS AND TERRA ITSELF SO HE MAY BE FREED FROM HIS PRISON

>>96025600
It's boring and lame to you. I quite like the idea of an infinite, malevolent cosmic force of corruption existing and dooming the world with it's mere presence.
I don't understand why /tg/ is so fucking rabidly anti-chaos, but they are a pretty cool part of the setting. If nothing else, I just like tzeentch demon designs.

>>96027502
>"The world is doomed if the heroes fail, and their success is not guaranteed"
That's not even dark though, that can be a set-up for pretty standard heroic fantasy.

>>96026430
All souls get snuffed out. Only the most powerful ones persist beyond a year and a day. Moreover, you are not your soul. The soul in Warhammer is just warp stuff that was attracted to your mind's psychic pull. It's more akin to a parasite that thinks it's you. Is a notebook that you keep and put all of your thoughts into "you"? Your soul has as much to do with you as a daemon does.

>>96030493
Heroic dark fantasy is a thing too. "Dark" fantasy is about tone and aesthetics. "Grimdark" fantasy is utterly hopeless and miserable fantasy, so Warhammer, while "nobledark" describes heroic dark fantasy. In other words, the darkness level between Dracula and Warhammer is very much apparent and quantifiable.

>>96030408
Because nihilistic grimdark fantasy isn't everyone's thing. I mean by and large tg dislikes or is apathetic to the fluff anyway. It's a game about overpriced plastic action figured fighting.

>>96030618
No, grimdark is made up and noble dark is doubly made up, neither term actually means anything in particular.

>>96030648
Wrong but ok

>>96030408
Villains who need the narrative to prop up their victory are genuinely far less interesting than those that are struggling just as much as the heroes in some way. Nobody thought it was clever when Geedubs retconned Abaddon's 13 failed black crusades into retroactive successes just to puff him up for blowing up Cadia, they called it a massive cop out. And frankly, "infinite, malevolent cosmic force of corruption existing and dooming the world with it's mere presence" is like a quarter of the villains in these kind of grimdark settings by this point. They're fine, but they need to do a lot more than just exist to get my praise, and most don't.

>>96030525
Precisely. There's no "eternal suffering" in the warp, everything just sucks hard for a really long time until whatever echo of you remains poofs out of existence. Hardly the stuff of nightmares.

>>96026430
>>96030751
You guys are liars. Souls claimed by Chaos are said to suffer eternally.

>>96031021
The guys who write Warhammer 40k disagree

>wardilator lore
Eho cares?

>>96031070
You idiot. You missed the word "claimed". People who are killed by daemons get their souls claimed and suffer eternal torment.

Souls that enter the Warp dissolve into it, but time is not a linear line in the Warp. There is a window in which daemons can swoop in and claim the souls before they dissolve. Daemons in the Warp gather around areas of mass death to pick up the souls entering the Warp.

In novels such as "Darkness in the Blood", daemons are seen chasing shoals of souls. In ADB's own novels such as Echoes of Eternity, an Imperial person dies and is claimed by a daemon.

>>96031089
You're the idiot who doesn't understand the admittedly retarded lore. That arrangement only applies to Chaos worshippers, and that's cause they fucking asked for it. Everyone else just dissipates into warp essenc , by Chaos's own words, and whatever echo is left is what's eaten and then turned into nothing. Fucking read, bitch.

>>96030052
Ah yes the Thorian inquisition approach

>>96031099
Wrong, dipshit. How about you read more of the codex and how their realms are filled with souls claimed by Chaos, and they are suffering eternal torment.

>>96031099
>That arrangement only applies to Chaos worshippers
No, it happens to Chaos worshippers as a default, because their souls are already claimed, but you don't need to worship a daemon for it to take your soul.
If you're lucky you'll just wink out of existence, but a daemon could just scoop you up instead.

oi, wot do you reckon when youz boyz die?

>>96031110
Nah, already got the words of ADB to prove you wrong, but thanks anyways

>>96031120
Nope. It says nothing about the fate of the souls claimed by daemons. I accept your concession.
I again say, how about you actually read ADB's novels and short stories, or the rest of the codex you snipped that from?

>>96031132
Just admit you don't know what you're talking about already, chaosfag, and that Chaos is the weakest element of all the warhams out there, cause I've seen nothing to counter the point that Chaos is terminally fucking boring compared to every single other faction in all those games combined

>>96031146
You were proven wrong and now are throwing non-sequiturs. Pathetic.

>>96031158
Stop talking about yourself in the third person, dumbass

>>96031174
Ctfl-F souls in the codex, dipshit. You will find numerous mentions of eternal damnation.
Case in point, Khorne enslaves the souls of warriors who died in their sleep rather than in war. Or the souls who get lost in Tzeentch's realm. etc.

>>96031146
>Chaos is terminally fucking boring
How?

any lore of the metaphyisics of the setting after 3ed edition are a strict downgrade and can therefore be ignored

Fine if you don't have team sports brain where you can't seperate chaos the in game armies from chaos the metaphysical force. Like Khaine being a subentity of khorne is obviously a natural thing given the names and portfolios and the fact some dark elf witch elf models have big khorne runes on them, but by being a subentity he's fundementally more orderly and ameneable to a coherent material world because he encompasses less possibility, in the same way practicing amber magic is safer than practicing dark magic since you're filtering out only a portion of the possibilities from the chaos. The gods aren't big guys, they're regions of the realm of soul personified for easier devotion, while something like Khaine would be a smaller region inside of khorne that is semi independent.

Also there are 18 trillion lesser chaos gods and the game used to have a chaos god generator.

I think the worst part of this argument is that both of you appear to give a shit about what ADB thinks

>>96031187
Read the words of the writer, dipshit. Every single soul that hits the warp dissipates into pure thought. The warp is literally just thoughts and psychic energy. Everything that's left is an echo, a remnant, of whatever "you" was. Whatever is being "eternally damned" isn't you any longer, it's the equivalent of a drawing of you being torched by the neighborhood bullies while "you" are long long gone.

>>96031197
Cause frankly, Chaos isn't Chaotic. It's always the same four bumblefucks with the same four gimmicks that are apparently always the ones meant to always win. And that's the status quo the writers want, and how the fans always console themselves with "lol chaos wins in the end". They WANT the same four goobers to always be the ultimate victors, whose ultimate goal is to...what? Blow themselves up in the end? Collapse the warp in unto itself until it's big enough to start the whole process? To basically do this shit forever instead of, you know, actually doing something radically different?

Chaos is boring. Khorne is a fake sitting on a pile of skulls cause he's too much of a lardass to actually change shit. Nurgle's a basement dwelling incel who jacks his unwashed microdick off consoling himself that he'll be the ultimate victor cause entropy whatever while crying to himself that Macha refuses to put out. Slaanesh is a glorified blowup doll who jacks off to hir own reflection while crying themselves to sleep and shoving eldar soul echoes up their pozzhole that Khorne and the Emperor refuse to anally destroy their bussy like the good old days. And Tzeentch is worse than any of those fucks combined because every single instance of "Just as planned lol" is one massive cope as he sucks his own dick for eternity.

The big four chaos gods are boring. Always have been, always will be. Their servants are infinitely more interesting. But we don't have a setting where we can remove their followers from them.

>>96031274
>Their servants are infinitely more interesting.
And all the narrative focus is on their servants...
I don't get what you're complaining about. The four Chaos Gods are not characters, they're just flavours of corruption.

GW writers do not have a consistent understanding of their setting and alternate freely between a half dozen different paradigms (the human gods are pure fiction, morr is literally 100% real and functions as advertised, all souls that go to the realm of souls are consumed by a god, ect, ect) so don't argue about it like there is a "right" interpretation and counter examples matter.

>>96031301
The opening post is ABOUT those four particular characters, how the hell did you miss that?

>>96031322
>The opening post is ABOUT those four particular characters
The opening post actually highlights how they're not characters. They're great powers with no real form that manifest in many different ways and have often contradictory or illogical motives and goals.

>>96031363
So they're boring and have no point to existing? Got it.

>>96031476
No, they're interesting plot devices, and their point is to facilitate the existence of their bizarre followers.

>>96031496
They're genuinely not

>>96031522
And why not?

>>96031541
Cause every single thing revolving around them is just

>bloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzbloodskullzthronethronethrooooooooooooone
>plagues plagues plagues plagues plagues plagues plagues fart shit piss puss boils grandpa lurvs you
>wiener joke
>lol my plan to lose was always my plan all along so i really win forever because im always losing forever aren't i so clever teeheeheeeheeheeheeheeheeee

And nothing fucking else. And it's been old for decades. Gork and Mork are shallow as fuck too, but they were always a joke from the start instead of meant to be "plot devices". And all the other gods are at least characters who can plan, scheme, fight, and suffer setbacks. Chaos is the only one that gets away with "They don't have to win cause they always win IN THE END ahurhurhurr" and have zero purpose to doing what they do besides basically jerking themselves off in their followers' faces with their catchphrase.

As they are now, they're not interesting plot devices. They're memes. Memes that have been deader than "the cake is a lie xd" for ages.

>>96031607
imagiantion failure and reading material failure on your part

>>96031607
>And nothing fucking else.
That's just not true. You're taking the community meme versions from over a decade ago as their inviolable forms, but that's simply not the case. This is a problem that exists only in your perception.

>>96031627
You yourself said they're "not characters" and just "plot devices"

>>96031644
> over a decade ago
Kid, I hate to break it to you, but that's them NOW.

>>96031675
*from over a decade ago
That's the point, it's just an old meme that has no bearing on reality.

>>96031675
You're interpreting reddit memes as the limits of creativity within the setting because you are low intelligence

>>96031689
>>96031704
It's the only way Chaos is ever presented in the lore now, frankly. I do remember a time when by the Chaos book's own internal logic, the four chaos gods did also represent human virtues as well as vices, but that point is basically so long gone in favor of the meme versions of the chaos gods the fandom obsesses over.

>>96031707
>It's the only way Chaos is ever presented in the lore now
It's not, you literally have displayed you know and dislike the memes, but the memes are not something from the fluff, but a deliberate distortion of it.

>>96031707
again, reading material+imagination failure on your part

>>96031720
>>96031713
Frankly, I've yet to see anything remotely interesting done with Chaos in the past few years, and absolutely no refutations of this presentation of any of the Chaos gods beyond "nuh uh".

>>96031729
All you're doing is regurgitating memes that have been around for over a decade. I doubt you've tried to ever actually engage with the fluff in good faith.

>>96031729
GW hasn't done anything interesting at all in terms of fluff in the last few years, why are you narrowing that down to the chaos gods? The only gilmmers of creativity are cordoned off to the specialist games (where there is some fun stuff going on with chaos)

>>96031744
Then show me some.

>>96031745
Cause that's what the thread is about. But you're not wrong.

>>96031769
>Then show me some.
No, just go and read them, you know where fluff is produced.

>>96031769
If everything made in recent years is dogshit, and everything written about the chaos gods is dogshit in recent years, that doesn't mean the chaos gods are dogshit, retard, it means the current writing staff is just incompetent. If you want ANYTHING interesting, you need to read pretty much exclusively old fluff or specialist games fluff, anything coming out of main games for the last decade has been utterly without value.

>>96031777
You're the one insistent that it's good, so the burden of proof is on you

>>96031791
Kinda does

>>96031842
>You're the one insistent that it's good
No, that would be a fools errand given the subjectivity involved. At this point I'm saying they're not the memes you imagine them to be.

>>96031791
>mfw 10th Edition Warhammer
>mfw GW can't shut the fuck up about Chaos
>mfw 4th War of Armageddon
>mfw Orks are sidelined so the Space Furries can be homosexual with the Red Faggot.

>>96031874
Again, prove otherwise.

>>96031973
Go read.
See if you can find your memes.

>>96016075 (OP)
Gay just like the rest of chaos
>b-but chaos is not gay
All chaos follower are weak faggots who gave up on life because it was too hard for them.

>>96024218
>>96031070
Why do they type like this?
>>96031874
Why do YOU type like this?

Only honest way I can describe it is pseudointellectual homo vernacular. Like they're discussing the most interesting and dramatic thing ever, when it's just their dumb edgelord faction in their dumb edgy setting. Fart Huffing might be a bettet descriptor.

>>96031991
Sorry, the burden of proof is on you, anon

>>96031744
Bruh in one of the new novels two nurgle guys are sitting in a hot tub farting at each other and discussing how evil they are. Chaos is straight autistic.

>>96031197
Not him but "bad guy who is completely invincible and controls everything and will always win" is very dull. It's equivalent to the
>*teleports behind u* nothin personnel........kid
meme. Then it goes from dull to irritating when the writers seem to literally masturbate to Chaos, demanding everyone else love it as much as them.

>>96032115
>Why do YOU type like this?
>Only honest way I can describe it is pseudointellectual homo vernacular.
>Fart Huffing might be a bettet descriptor.
So you think I sound like either like an unintelligent gay man trying to sound intelligent or a man who sniffs farts.
I don't see the connection. You're a real nigger thug or possibly a bile licker I guess.

>>96032122
It's not, you'd need to prove that the memes are true to the canon.

>>96032152
>Not him but "bad guy who is completely invincible and controls everything and will always win" is very dull.
The bad guys are the actual Chaos characters though, and they aren't like that at all.

>>96032161
I accept your concession

>>96032182
Which one of the three are you?

>>96031274
I like chaos tho.

>>96031274
Chaos being completely static and unchaotic probably is the worst part of how it's written, even moreso than it always winning. It's absolutely ordered, unchanging, and homogenous, the opposite of what pure chaos should be.

>>96020319
Didn't answer my question though

Talking about old chaos lore, does anyone have the name or more information on the chaos god that Chaos Space Marines used to put pointed starts and arrows on their shit to earn the favor of?

All the spikes and arrows used to be essentially a superstition for one lesser chaos god, I just cant remember what he is called.

>>96032114
Perhaps the same could be said of all religions

>>96025747
>especially if he kept itoning “you can never escape your fate we clowns always get the last laugh” while honking his crotch in my face while blowing raspberries and going “ooooooooh bloooood for the blooooooood cluwnnnnnneee whoooooooo” every five seconds
lmao now I want to run a clown model as a greater daemon

>>96031274
>Chaos isn't Chaotic. It's always the same four bumblefucks with the same four gimmicks
This is something that bothers me too since it feels like despite their name they're actually pretty damn orderly in how they're composed. If anything the Imperium is the more chaotic one between the two factions.

>>96034032
This is part of why Malal was so kino. Chaos god of chaos and entropy. Hated both chaos and order, and provided a balance of power. The other chaos gods feared him and his power was proportional to theirs, so they had to be careful. Wildcard incarnate basically.

But GW lost the rights to him and his planned minis (and very narrowly avoided getting taken to court by the creator), so he was no more. They claim they never liked him anyway, but I think it's bitterness. That and Malal was far more interesting than what chaos is now, and hams writers are pretty awful and creatively devoid. Gotta have the same 4 virtually identical dickheads with virtually identical demons, and guys like Gav think it's the best written evil side ever and demand you be pleased with it.

>>96034326
>Gotta have the same 4 virtually identical dickheads with virtually identical demons, and guys like Gav think it's the best written evil side ever and demand you be pleased with it.
Actually schizophrenic take
And we already have a chaos god of entropy: Nurgle. You are literally taking the barest, most surface level meme tier ideas about the chaos gods and making your entire opinion about them based on that.
It's fine if you don't like chaos, but most of the things you've written ITT have been plain wrong.

>>96034353
>t. ADB
And Malal was a better entropy god because his portfolio didn't include shitting yourself for w/e reason.

>>96034326
>That and Malal was far more interesting than what chaos is now
You say that only because it's unused.
If it was still canon, GW would expand on him and his faction and you'd perceive it as lame just like the other four.

>>96025890
>Saying “they always win in the end” is a cope, not any thematic.
Communists claim that Communism is inevitable. Doesn't make it so.
Chaos followers claim that Chaos is inevitable. Guess what?

>>96034326
>Gotta have the same 4 virtually identical dickheads with virtually identical demons
They're not virtually identical! They're different colours. So there!

>>96034326
Nah that's still just the same status quo but with an extra dude slapped on top, not much chaotic about it. desu GW really should have had a few extremely customizable minor and major Daemon kits so you could create whatever chaotic bullshit of whatever entity you wanted while leaving the big four as the example ones for people who don't want to homebrew. That way things could maybe actually feel more like a ever shifting swarm of chaotic beings.

>>96033225
It was three: Ans'l, Mo'rcck, and Phraz-Etar

>>96023689
Because the struggle dosen't matter, imagine being a boxer and learning that all your fights were completely rigged, all that training and sacrifice and discipline was a waste of time, the fights you were set to win you could have walked in blind drunk and you'd still win, at that pint why even pretend to be an athlete?

>>96031174
That would be second person, anon.

>>96032152
>Not him but "bad guy who is completely invincible and controls everything and will always win" is very dull. It's equivalent to the
>>*teleports behind u* nothin personnel........kid
>meme. Then it goes from dull to irritating when the writers seem to literally masturbate to Chaos, demanding everyone else love it as much as them.
It's worse than this, really. Rather than just always winning, in fact, Chaos always loses, but we are informed (rather than shown) of their inevitable victory.

Imagine if, in fact, the Imperium was gradually losing territory to Chaos; if each passing year, their section of the map got smaller and smaller, as they desperately tried to gather the forces necessary, allied with anyone they had to no matter how vile and dangerous, etc, to stop Chaos, and still failed.

Instead, the Imperium is massive, sprawling, and routinely wins victories against Chaos. But then the writers say "but it's going to lose anyway, lol," while nothing in the actual writing backs it up. Reading Ciaphis Cain, for example, the Tau seem more threatening than Chaos. The fucking Tau.

>>96016195
Exactly, even the big four are best left as abstract, ill defined concepts that might be parts of a greater whole or not even exist outside of the shared delusions of a few pitiful mortals that looked to deep into the abyss. Or, a shared joked of a few lower order deamons that "pick up the phone." This isn't something you should ever "know" as a player, and should be left open in your mind as the GM so that you can deliver whatever you need to, whenever you need to for your game/table.

>>96037966
That sometimes seems like what they go for but like >>96031321 said perfectly the writers are insanely inconsistent. We'll go from "not even real beings but vague whirlpools of mortal thought" to "primordial alien gods evilly plotting schemes together" and back again every other book. If it was in-character inconsistency that'd be pretty cool, but instead it's OOC inconsistency because the fluff writers blow. They've always blown.

>>96016075 (OP)
Personally, I always felt like some of the Chaos gods had the things that they’re gods OF be slightly forced in their association with Chaos. Besides being a Trickster like Loki, what are some other domains that would work well in Chaos gods versus Order gods?

>>96038985
>slightly forced
>god of entropy is also the god of farts and aids
"Slightly" forced?

>>96039204
>>96038985
The only Chaos God done well was Hashut. Strong presence in worship, very clear strengths without overstepping into “universal force,” and excellent aesthetic which bleeds into everything his followers do.

>>96039224
The problem there is Hashut is the god of tyranny and slaves, basically order/law taken to its extreme. Hashut is easily the coolest chaos god, but he's not chaotic whatsoever.

The writers trying to cram everything into a law or chaos box because Muh DND and Muh Morecock is really part of the problem. The concept of a cosmic alignment chart is restrictive and dumb.

>>96036502
That's not really the same situation.
A more appropriate analogy would be every boxer knows that one day they'll have their last fight. The best way to prolong their career is to keep fighting, and keep winning while minimising the hurt they take.

>>96039330
>That's not really the same situation.
NTA but your analogy isn't appropriate either. The framing of Warhammer's conflict isn't
>Law and Chaos fight each other and eventually Chaos will overtake Law
it's
>Chaos is everything, the alpha and omega, it controls everything, and the side of Law is just Chaos puppeting itself for fun, all of reality is their game
So you can't even do some kind of desperate last stand heroic struggle thing with it. It's straight up a grimderp lose-lose scenario where the fact "good" guys even exist is just Chaos having a giggle, and they control literally everything at all times.

>>96039350
>>Chaos is everything
Chaos is the source of everything, like in Greek Mythology.
>>It's straight up a grimderp lose-lose scenario where the fact "good" guys even exist is just Chaos having a giggle, and they control literally everything at all times.
That's not the case, Chaos is not united and in control of itself. You could perhaps imagine that there is an all powerful true God that all the other gods and daemons are just aspects of, but that's the case we've never been properly introduced to them.

>>96039278
>The writers trying to cram everything into a law or chaos box because Muh DND and Muh Morecock is really part of the problem
Which is ironic since they've basically taken the entire law end of the spectrum and old yeller'd it for a long time now

>>96039386
Warhammer Chaos has evolved (or devolved) from it's Moorcockian roots. Chaos does not represent disorder, but rather primordial potential.

>>96039384
>Chaos is the source of everything, like in Greek Mythology.
No, as in the 4 chaos gods control every part of reality. 6e, same edition as OP's pic, says that Tzeentch decides when human hearts beat. The chaos gods are verifiably omnipotent, predate all of existence, and would continue to exist even if mortals didn't.

>>96039399
>same stagnant group of four dudes and friends
>>>>>>>>>>primordial potential

>>96039400
>No, as in the 4 chaos gods control every part of reality.
They don't, as they cannot control each other or even themselves.
They are vastly powerful entities, but far from omnipotent.

>>96039405
Yeah, and Chaos gave rise to only a handful of Children in the original Greek myth too.

>>96039415
They can't control each other but for all intents and purposes they're omnipotent. They control literally everything else, so if the only thing that the chaos gods can't control is each other, that still means the only thing capable of opposing them is each other, and all the excuses of "muh rage against the dying of the light" and shit are null and void. WFB 8e solidifies this and says mortals have never even beaten chaos at all, the chaos gods just get bored of winning and leave or they get one-upped by each other, with mortals not even being a factor whatsoever.

>>96039430
NTA but Greek mythology has dozens, possibly hundreds of gods with widely varying portfolios. Chaos has 4 that are
>wants to kill everyone with magic
>wants to kill everyone without magic
>wants to kill everyone with sex magic
>wants to kill everyone with poop magic

>>96039400
>>96039432
I wonder how hard the chaos fanboy writer of this crap was when he wrote this one handed

>>96039432
>They can't control each other
And as I said they are also unable to control themselves, they are not omnipotent.
Mortal life must struggle in the gaps between godly ambition, but so what?

>>96039442
I mean, I 100% unironically think at least some of the writers have fapped to chaos before. Bare minimum ADB and Gav Thorpe have.

>>96039455
>And as I said they are also unable to control themselves
Yes they can.
>but so what?
The constant excuse chaosfags and/or hamshills use of
>it doesn't matter that chaos always wins, because it's all about the struggle!
is wrong, because there ISN'T a struggle or a fight. Everything in Warhammer is framed as Chaos quite literally playing with itself.

>>96039437
>NTA but Greek mythology has dozens, possibly hundreds of gods with widely varying portfolios.
Chaos only has something like five children: Gaea, Tartarus, Eros, Erebus and Nyx.
>Chaos has 4
Those are the four most powerful, and they in turn have their own children.

>>96039476
>Chaos only has something like five children: Gaea, Tartarus, Eros, Erebus and Nyx.
More than Warhammer Chaos and far more varied even with those five.
>and they in turn have their own children.
No they don't. Every other god in Warhammer is, depending on your version of the lore, them creating personas for their great game, or in post-End Times lore mortals unrelated to Chaos who have magic powers but are nowhere even remotely near them in power.

>>96039473
>Yes they can.
They cannot, Tzeentch often foils himself and can't help but meddle. Khorne cannot control his temper. Nurgle is forever stuck in his cycle. Slaanesh has his obsessions. They are beings without self mastery.
>The constant excuse chaosfags and/or hamshills use of
>is wrong, because there ISN'T a struggle or a fight.
There is, though, it's just ultimately futile.

>>96039509
There isn't a fight because it's just Chaos vs Chaos with mortals being used as toys. Chaos could end everything in the blink of an eye if it wanted to (also canon). The existence of mortals in anything is by Chaos's will at Chaos's leisure.

In simpler terms, it's stupid faggotry.

>>96039489
>Every other god in Warhammer is, depending on your version of the lore, them creating personas for their great game
That's not true, other gods exist, and will some degree be created from the same stuff, but will have their independce to a degree. Khaine for example is clearly derived from Khorne to a great degree, but Slaanesh too. He's not merely a mask for Khorne in the way that Khorne and Kharneth are the same entity.

>>96039460
>tfw the original manuscript was 100% stained with Chaosfag cum
>tfw there was probably some poor intern who had to scrape it off before it went to the printers

>>96039524
>Chaos could end everything in the blink of an eye if it wanted to (also canon).
>The existence of mortals in anything is by Chaos's will at Chaos's leisure.
Chaos doesn't have wants or will so far as we know. The gods do, but hold each other in stalemate usually.

>>96039540
>other gods exist
>He's not merely a mask for Khorne
You need to reread.

>>96024218
>>96016075 (OP)

>>96039558
>Chaos doesn't have wants or will so far as we know
I mean, yeah, they do, it's just retardedly basic and badly written wants of BE EVIL xD at all times.

>>96039574
Why would you read words covered in chaos fanboy cum you homo

>>96039574
I have read all of this long before this thread. OP mention's all gods are just shards of Chaos. This does not mean all those gods are bound to a unified will. Gav mentions that gods are born of the overlaps between the gods, and again does not say they are bound to a unified will.

>>96039581
>I mean, yeah, they do
No, the gods do, the champions and the rest do, but there is no collective will so far as we know.

>>96039616
>everyone has the same will but there's not really a collective will
I'm dunn hier.

>>96039624
Everyone has a will of their own. There is no collective.

>>96024218
If Great Horned Rat = Nurgle/Tzeentch, Hashut = Khorne/Tzeentch, Khaine = Khorne/Slaanesh who would the other variants be? Slaanesh/Tzeentch? Slaanesh/Nurgle = Great Maw?

>>96039639
The Great Maw is a giant mutant creature rather than an actual god.

>>96039634
When that will comes down to doing the exact same acts of evil with a different color scheme, it's collective. Mass Effect 3 didn't have different endings.

>>96039658
>When that will comes down to doing the exact same acts of evil with a different color scheme, it's collective.
If two countries both bomb and torture each other does that mean they're actually just the same country?

>>96016075 (OP)
So, what, Gork and Mork are just lame-ass Khorne allegories? Not only is that way less cool, it retroactively ruins several key points of lore when Orkz fucked up Chaos.

>>96039670
If an army from one part of a country and another army from another part of a country invade somewhere, it's still one country doing the invasion.

>>96039634
There exists collective will, it exist the precise instant two people come in contact with each other and understand eachothers "personality" and capacity of perception. For example, a group of people supeditate their personal will into collective law , this collective law thus changes the individual and molds him into the collective, In some sense, collective will is more powerful and substantive than individual will

>>96039670
So those countries have wills of their own (doing warfare) therefore there exists the expression of collective will (The state undergoing an action, war, trade, politics, etc) THEREFORE collective will exists

>>96039880
>>96039899
I'm not saying collective will doesn't exist. I'm saying there is no collective will of Chaos.

>>96039911
But there is. In this case is the absolute destruction of the material plain and of Order. The other thing is that the individual components of Chaos (the 4 faggots) have other interests of their own. But they pull to the same end.

>>96039933
>But there is.
Nope. They might all want a similar end, but will not agree the method.
Two Kings might both want a new world order, but each disagrees who should be in charge. So while each shares a desire for domination, it is not a collective desire.

>>96016221
>These are the greatest of gods to whom all other gods-each and every one-are but portions or conjunctions.
>To imagine that those very deities were but shards of the infinitely more mighty thing that is Chaos would be to terrifying to even contemplate.

>>96039969
If that were the case there would not be a point to Chaos undivided, the existance of chaos undivided points to the collective will of the chaos gods, they are all different aspects of Chaos, which ultimately, notwithstanding the means, want the same end, erradication of Order.

What you're inciting to (That Chaos is not an entity because they fight) is like saying that Evil does not exist because it comes in different ways. At the end of the day Chaos is Chaos, doesnt matter if its blue, green or red

>>96016075 (OP)
So the Emperor was right all along. All religion is a plague that ultimately serves the will of Chaos.

>>96040037
The emperor is wrng because the fluff is written by LA-NYC-London nihilistic faggots, Chaos is wrong because it is written by nihilistic faggots, warhammer is wrong, because it is written by pisspoor writers tbqh

>>96040025
>If that were the case there would not be a point to Chaos undivided
Chaos undivided in its common form is pretty much just trying to fish for favours from anyone.
Chaos undivided in the form of all the gods actually getting behind one guy like Archaon or Abaddon is a very big deal because it represents a collectivising of the will of the great Chaos powers, and that is why it's seen as an apocalyptic event.
>What you're inciting to (That Chaos is not an entity because they fight)
You could view Chaos as a singular entity, but so far as we know that entity does not have a singular will. The most powerful wills within the Chaos entity are the four great gods.

>>96040037
The Emperor was wrong because all thought serves Chaos. Religion can be used to shape thought in useful ways for psionic warfare, and so he shouldn't have discarded it.

>>96040079
>Archaon or Abaddon is a very big deal because it represents a collectivising of the will of the great Chaos powers

So there IS a collective will of Chaos.

I understand the broader point of the lesser daemons having wills of their own, but still they are subserviant to the collective will of Chaos. For exampel a Daemon of Chaos cannot help the God emperor, it goes against is nature of subserviance to broader chaos.

>>96016075 (OP)
I just sharded, maybe warhammer fans can worship that.

>>96040100
>So there IS a collective will of Chaos.
No, but occasionally their goals will overlap. They never suborn their will entire.
Chaos entities did help the Emperor, they gifted him the sorcery necessary to create the Primarchs, and gifted him power on Molech.
The Emperor is steeped in Chaos.

>>96039509
>There is, though, it's just ultimately futile.
That's saying the same damn thing but with extra steps

>It's important to vote, even when the vote is rigged, right up until you do actually vote in which case your vote no longer matters

>>96040096
Religion isn't necessary for that. A stable Imperium secured by the human webway and free from the excesses of the Eldar would have been sufficient to generate the positive emotions necessary to calm the Warp. The only reason faith is seen as "necessary" in the current settings is because of Lorgar. It's literally all his fault. If he had decided that it's meaningful enough for him to better the lives of humans across the galaxy even without a divine patron, everything would have worked out fine.

>>96040164
>Chaos entities did help the Emperor
True, but I meant help in the good faith argument, of course they helped the emperor because they meant to use the primarchs against him

>>96040183
It's not, it's like saying there is no struggle in your life because one day you will die. All struggling against death is doomed to fail ultimately, but you can fight to stay alive for longer.

>>96025747
This sounds like in-universe avant-garde anti-Chaos propaganda. Portraying Khorne and his followers as retarded clowns who keep pouring blood on a giant throne of clowns. A bunch of serious classical plays are ruined when bloodclowns kill everyone and then honk their crotches in the audience face. It culminates in a guy in a bloodthirster costume losing in battle to an actor playing Karl Franz.

>>96039805
No, they would be a region of the warp composed of ork souls that was within or conjoined with the region called khorne.

Gods are regions of the soul realm composed of similar souls. The big four are simply the biggest four identifiable regions. Within them and adjoing them are smaller gods that both are and are not them, in the same way you could say Transnistria is and is not Moldova

>>96040279
That's asinine and you know it

>>96040340
I don't think it's asinine.
It's ultimately about the meaning of life.

>>96040352
It really, really isn't. Cause I'd hope that the meaning of life is more than the whims of an edgelord, unwashed neckbeard, camwhore, and hiroomoot giggling to themselves in an infinite circlejerk

>>96040313
I mean, I guess that's something, but Gork and Mork were stated to be strong enough to shrug off attacks from the other gods and were impossible to put down, so they need to take up residence on a significant enough chunk of Khorne's space that is also separate otherwise empowering them paradoxically empowers Khorne, but also now this means Khorne's influence is significantly less than the other gods and this throws the balance of Chaos out of whack and I can feel my inner monologue intoning "this is fucking stupid" as I write this.

>>96040446
Personally, I've always taken it to be that
a) The Chaos lore has always been full of shit, and the big four aren't anywhere as all-encompassing as they want you to believe
or
b) Gork and Mork combined could kick Khorne's teeth in if they worked together, but by their very nature they're too busy fighting each other over who's stronger to consider it

>>96040397
>It really, really isn't.
It is.
>Cause I'd hope that the meaning of life is more than the whims of an edgelord, unwashed neckbeard, camwhore, and hiroomoot giggling to themselves in an infinite circlejerk
Leave the warhammer fluff aside for a second and allow yourself to explore the concepts of mortality and meaning.
One day you will die. One day after that, the last living person who remembers you will die. It doesn't matter if you're a price or a pauper, all trace of you will vanish. So what does your life matter? Is there any meaning? You'll have to find your own answers.

Returning to the warhammer fluff, this is what the futile struggle against Chaos resonates with (plus some stuff about sin and morality), and why I find it to be quite powerful.

>>96040496
Except that's not how Chaos works at all in Warhammer's fluff, which we're discussing, so frankly you are a moron who has his mouth wrapped more firmly around his penis than Tzeentch does

>>96040507
>Except that's not how Chaos works at all in Warhammer's fluff
In what way?
Do you think it's not ultimately futile to fight Chaos?

>>96040531
Let me put it into the most easy to understand terms you can understand
Despite coming from the same origin point, Chaos with a capital C is not the same as the chaotic stew of magical essence that the Winds of Magic come from, nor the primordial congealed mass of psychic thought and energy called The Warp.

Chaos is a very specific faction of Daemons found within the warp, ones specifically malevolent to mortal life, focused on propagation of themselves and their influence through violent action and active corruption of the material plane. Oftentimes this faction of daemons consists of the recognized Gods known as Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh, with others such as the Horned Rat and Hashtut being separate but also occasionally lumped in due to their similar malevolent intentions.

The God-Emperor of Mankind, the Old Ones, the Elves and Eldar endeavored to control the chaos of the winds of magic/the warp in order to contain the effects of Chaos while they built their respective societies. Chaos is a faction that can be fought and potentially beaten. The chaotic flows of energy that make up magic/psyker powers can't.

>Do you think it's not ultimately futile to fight the chaotic flow of energy?
Yes, because it can't be controlled without exploding or unless you become a God yourself, only contained or siphoned off of.

>Do you think it's not ultimately futile to fight Chaos?
No. You actually can. In theory, if you punch Tzeentch hard enough in the face enough times that his followers stop believing in him, eventually he as an entity will shatter apart, and the individual pieces will form daemons that won't have the same power or influence or even identity Tzeentch had. And if you try to tell me it can't be done, look at 40k Khaine's situation and how everyone says he's doomed to one day vanish into nothing.

>>96040692
>No. You actually can.
Well I disagree, I believe fighting Chaos is futile.
If you don't believe that, then that's fine, but the conversation that was ongoing was predicated on the fact that both sides of the conversation held that to be the case.

>>96040743
That's why I made the distinction between the origin point of chaotic thought and energy and Chaos as a wargame faction very clear. A lot of people lump them in together, which is where we get this wankfest of "Everything is doomed to fall to chaos, Chaos will always win ahurrhurrhurr" from. Like, Nagash actually came close to matching if not dominating against the four Chaos gods during the End Times, and Age of Sigmar makes it clear that they can't do diddly dick to him, so the notion that Chaos is invincible is clearly false. The fact that everyone conflates the chaotic stew of magic/psychic energies that the Gods draw most of their power from with Chaos the faction just contributes to a lot of unnecessary confusion and wanking.

>>96040692
It is specifically and explicitly stated that the winds of magic come from tzeentch.
Really this is just a difference in view, the anon you're arguing with views chaos as a lovecraftian force, you view it more as just a traditional evil spirit faction. Neither of these are false because there's lore and fluff that supports both views, so there's really no point in arguing.

>>96040881
>so there's really no point in arguing.
I know you're right, anon, like really, I do. But this is still an internet forum, and people have asked me as an anonymous nameless nerd to explain why I don't respect how Chaos is portrayed in Warhams as some kind of all-powerful unbeatable force. Which necessitates focusing on their quantities as a defined faction in a wargame rather than some ill-defined concept that was done better in fiction like with Moorcock and 2000 AD.

>>96040928
Eh, I think it was done ok. I like how you can separate the big 4 into the 4 facets of chaos(destruction, change, entropy and corruption) and I think the doomed world aspect of warhammer is neat.
I get why you don't like it tho, it's not for everyone.

>>96040986
I personally hate it cause I view a Chaos victory as AN ending, making it THE ending is lame, especially since the end goal is for Chaos to just wait until there's enough sentient life after snuffing it out the first time just to do it all over again. If you're doing a doomed world, you should have more than one outcome, especially a bad one. Like if the undead actually overcame the living and turned the natural order upside down so that the living now serve their undead masters. Or if the rat men actually managed to outscheme the other sides of chaos and order by blowing the whole planet up by overreaching yet again. Or we actually get to see the Old Ones' vague plans actually happen and have a bunch of dino and toad men proceeding to turn reality into their bitch while Archaon malds. Anything other than "time to put the toys back in the box until age of sigmar"

>>96041082
I don't know, I guess I just instinctively view chaos winning as the only logical ending fantasy could have had. I can agree the End Times sucked, but that's because they were poorly written, not because the concept of a final chaos victory was fundamentally shit. I just like the funny two headed bird and the big fat guy who throws out exploding nurglings out of his gut.

>>96041107
>I guess I just instinctively view chaos winning as the only logical ending fantasy could have had
Ever seen Siegfried's ending in Soul Calibur IV where the so-called sword of Order that he thought was good because it opposed Soul Edge revealed its final game plan and froze the entire planet into an icy ball, with all of the human inhabitants as solid ice sculptures that cannot move or do anything but think, essentially essentially freeing the world from evil's grasp forevermore at the cost of no longer HAVING a world?

There's a lot of ways you can achieve horrific apocalyptic endings in fantasy. Death by the forces of evil is honestly the most tame and mundane one by now.

>>96040279
>but you can fight to stay alive for longer
Uh, no, you can't fight various causes of death.
>there is no struggle in your life because one day you will die
Presumably my life isn't a game set up by four retards in an alien cartoon hell dimension. Potentially there's more after death as well in a spiritual sense. Two things that are untrue of Warhammer.

It's not like the ending is vague and tense, you know exactly what the beginning is (chaos gods made everything), you know exactly what the journey is (chaos gods use you like a mini and control everything you do), and you know exactly what the ending is (chaos gods eat you and everything else when they get bored).

Since that sounds about as fun as getting fisted by a fat, greasy Indian man and equally as gay, I'd rather pass and not bother with it.

>>96016075 (OP)
chaos wanking has to be one of the worst aspects of any warhammer setting, especially since to keep it going they still have to make chaos lose so its feels like they are both to overpowered and massive jobbers that are mostly a minor inconvience, should have just made it so that while the chaos gods are among the most powerful, they are still vulnerable to being usurped hence why they constantly have to interfere in mortal affairs or risk losing their seat of power, not this crap about how they are le unstoppable and they can never really lose even when they do

>>96041960
nobledark imperium fixed this problem but nobody cared enough about 40k fluff anyway so it died

>>96042085
>nobledark imperium fixed this problem but nobody cared enough about 40k fluff anyway so it died
Details please?

So is the Warp meant to be more like the Afterlife, the Dreamlands or the Collective Unconscious of all sapient life?

>>96044101
More akin to a cancerous tumor, really. The Warp normally just exists as a byproduct of the soul being extinguished, with all the messy emotions and psychic signatures lingering in one space until they eventually dissipate. It's just been so thoroughly polluted with the psychic reverberations of regret and anguish that it's kind of become cancerous, and all of the negative emotions that are meant to eventually filter themselves out refuse to leave and continue trying to draw stronger psychic signatures aka souls to them in order to expand and grow without limit.

>>96017676
/thread

>>96024975
>Entropy is mindless and physical. Chaos is sentient and metaphysical
none of that is true.

my crackpot theory is that the chaos gods are atemporal theological parasites. they exist out of time and propagate themselves by infecting the concepts of other deities. khorne is so similar to khaine because he's been trying (unsuccessfully) to eat him for like a million years. most of the native norscan gods (the crow, the hound, etc) got retroactively turned into the chaos gods a long time ago and now always already were the chaos gods.

>>96044223
ah yes the intelligent cosmic force of energy being expended over time, and the mindless force of four cartoon villains with their cartoon demon soldiers murdering the universe

>>96044006
it made the emperor an actual god and not an evil retard, basically tyrannical but in a lawful neutral sort of way, and he's on par with the chaos gods who are all still extremely powerful but not omnipotent and capable of losing so they have to actually be careful, but the emperor can also permalose. then the other gods are all also real and have their own goals and exist as genuine competitors even though the emperor and big 4 are the top dogs overall. basically the order vs chaos vs destruction struggle becomes an actual struggle and not a grimderp wankfest

>>96041082
>>96040986
The End Times sucked because they immediately followed the Storm of Chaos, where GW made it very clear you “chose the wrong ending” and proceeded to write pulp-tier slop explaining how everyone you knew and loved are idiots and Chaos wins. Also they’re apparently demigods like in the Marvel movies. The fact the lore was shit isn’t the point, it was a severe breach of trust between the fans and the company, because the fans wanted and worked for one thing and got shat on it as a result.

If you don’t like the metaplot’s player-driven direction, you do a reset. You don’t take your ball and go home. Legend of the Five Rings got utterly retarded by the last years of 4th, but instead of saying Rokugan is consumed by Fu Leng they decide to roll back the clock to before Old Man Hantei dies. And 5th edition is fantastic for it.

WHFRP 4e desperately wants to be WHFRP 1e and succeeds in a lot of ways, but is still ultimately mired in the utter brain damage that WHFRP 2e and WHFB 6th edition brought to the setting. Mallus without Archaon is a better setting, if not in the lore than as a place to set your stories.

>>96046448
I never understood what the problem was with the post-Storm of Chaos setting. I get the event having a lot of scrutiny behind it, both on Geedubs and the participants' side. But the resulting setting shift wasn't that bad. The Empire may have been saved from total annihilation, but it's still got huge gaping holes in its defenses and is at its weakest that it's been in a while. Orks and Beastmen are running amok more than ever now. The Vampire Counts are now outright part of the Empire and probably are going to force the issue with the Elector Counts. And Sigmar's heir is still out in the wilderness waiting to be found. That sounds like enough to work with. What's the issue?

>>96046527
Because it humiliated Archaon and presented a world where Chaos was not the ultimate force of nature. To put it more simply, their OC was killed and they threw a tantrum. End Times was written concurrently with Fall of Cadia, btw. That entire period of GW was intense and unrelenting Chaos masturbation.

>>96046563
Never understood why chaos fans cared so much for Archaeon. He wasn't even the coolest chaos general.

>>96016075 (OP)
We had a thread about this some years ago. The eight points of the chaos star were meant to represent the eight chaos gods and the winds of magic. We *think* it's:
>The big four, including their aspects like horned rat and hashut
>Malal/Malice
>Gork/mork
>Order gods are on one arrow
>(Your dudes) God

>>96046631
Archaon was written at the height of “edge is cool” and hyped as the 13th Everchosen. They put too many “main character” stickers on Archaon to simply retire him. You could kill Tamurkhan tomorrow and he’ll either come back or have a satisfying conclusion, but Archaon was always built for more and Storm of Chaos was somehow not enough for GW.

Which is very strange, because Asavar Kull was basically Kurgan Archaon and he was still allowed to die - and the aftermath of the Great War against Chaos was ripe for roleplaying!

>>96046701
>Which is very strange, because Asavar Kull was basically Kurgan Archaon and he was still allowed to die - and the aftermath of the Great War against Chaos was ripe for roleplaying!
Should have had an event about the remaining forces of Chaos rallying to denounce Archaeon as the "false" Everchosen and picking a new ultimate champion the old fashioned way via beating every other candidate down

>>96046631
Mary sue OC who had the author's noses up his ass because they thought he was the coolest thing ever. There's also some 2edgy4me satanism reference with his title, and edgy = smart to the writers.

>>96040205
Congrats on having the most retarded take in a whole thread of retarded takes. Eldar had that too and look where it got them. And if you don't think humans would make each other's lives miserable just because they can, go read the news.

>>96038714
>the writers are insanely inconsistent.
Which, is good for Chaos.

The utter hatred this board has for chaos astounds me

>>96049119
The masturbatory love Warhammer's designers have for Chaos astounds me

>>96049119
Grim Dark is enjoyable when everything is bad because flawed or malicious people make selfish and destructive choices, because there's an inherent hope to that, that if people don't make those choices and choose instead to do the right things at the right times, things could get better.

Chaos wankers endorse the dumb kind of grimdark, where nothing you do matters, no choice or effort on anyone's part means anything, and everything sucks and gets worse no matter what. It's cringe.