Settings this, settings that, how about we talk about crafting in rpgs instead? What's your favorite crafting system and how much use do you get out of stuff like a ''Craft'' skill in play? Feels like it's often handwaved away or kind of shit because either you find what you need as loot or you can just buy the stuff you need. How much do you roll for crafting stuff vs how often do you kind of just make it?

>>96051698 (OP)
It is often handwavy because crafting is often a solitary activity. Not very cool ir gameable. to spend 15 min of everyones time describing your basket weaving. Wanting detailed crafting is often a sign of video game brain i've noticed.

>>96051698 (OP)
It's because "crafting" is not gameplay. There are no choices or tradeoffs or risks or challenges to overcome. There is no character development, it does not mean anything.
Worse, it trivializes resource management while also negating any pressure to adapt which the GM might apply.
In other words, allowing your players to "craft" their equipment is giving away the only power the GM actually has.
And that is the only reason any players ever want to go through the tedium and bookkeeping (which they use as a veil to conceal their true intentions: "but math is so haaaaaard, and therefore I'm actually working hard for my power...") to do crafting. Because they know that it steals power from the GM.

So my answer is always an extremely hard NO when players ask to craft. Not just because I don't want to play Bankers & Businessmen, but also because I know they are working in bad faith. Which is why my answer is not only just NO, it's also immediate removal of the problem from my table, and I give another applicant that seat. There's a long line waiting to get into my games. Go play Artificer by yourself, because you don't need an audience while you play with your excel spreadsheet. Fuck ALL THE WAY off with that shit.

>>96051698 (OP)
I play GURPS and it has a neat crafting system in Low-Tech Companion 3 - Daily Life and Economics; which I adapted to be more generic, and it works pretty well. It's simple, clean, and doesn't get in the way. Players can just pick what they want to craft, we take 30 seconds to calculate the amount of time needed and how much material it costs, and that's it.

I also have more complex rules for creating things from scratch but so far we haven't used it.

>>96051750
Generally I think that having some sort of rule for crafting is important but you don't want anything too complicated that will eat away table time. It shouldn't take much more time than you usually use on buying equipment.

>>96051761
bro that's crazy talk

>>96051761
>tie two sticks with a piece of rope
>GM throws hissy fit and bans you for the audacity

>>96051698 (OP)
The trouble with crafting is you're not expected to take it. When you dont you need to stay viable so items come to you at an expected rate regardless, and when you do take it you arent allowed to deviate from that expected curve or else you break the game
Some notorious examples
>D&D (no crafting rules at all)
>pf (highly time consuming, unprofitable as a down-time activity and only offers limited rewards for significant skill and feat investment)
>dark heresy (incomplete and contradictory rules that only really works with lots of down time and high investment at high levels. Fun to tinker with though)

>>96051698 (OP)
Actually annoys me that GURPS doesn't really have crafting rules. Some guidelines in splats here and there only

>>96051855
Yeah because that's totally what people mean by the term crafting and everyone agrees with you. You're totally engaging in good faith right now and we're all so convinced by how you only have the best of intentions.

>>96052775
That's because the GURPS books more or less go out of their way to warn users (the GM and the players both) that crafting isn't something for adventurers to be doing in the first place. You don't need mechanics for it just like you don't need mechanics for persuading the bartender to pour you a drink. You want treasures? Go on an adventure and find the sword in the tomb. It's that simple.

>>96051698 (OP)
>In Fantasy
Player declares they want to craft a particular magic item. DM thinks it over, agrees, and lays out some stuff they'll need (wyvern horn, schematic from a Red Clan Smith, experience a lightning strike). Once player has the items, they build the item over the next downtime. Basically allows the player and DM to negotiate interest in hooks (DM can put a Red Clan guy in his next adventure and knows you'll want to speak to him).
>In Sci Fi
Exchange rate between money and "salvage", use repair skills to make fear by "spending" salvage without going back to the store. Saves on unnecessary travel.

>>96051698 (OP)
In practice there's almost no reason for player groups to engage in crafting. The average player group has the means to generate liquid assets far quicker than participating in any crafting economy, at which point the question becomes why the players would sacrifice their valuable character's time pursuing crafting instead of paying for others to do it for them.

The real life parallel is being a lawyer or doctor; at their insane pay grades it makes very little sense to do ordinary things for themselves. Why wouldn't you hire a maid to clean your house once a week? The same rationale applies to adventurer parties and most forms of crafting.

The sole exceptions to this are forms of crafting that are so vanishingly rare and provide uniquely compelling rewards such as crafting specific magical items in low magic settings, etc.

Whenever players in my games approach the subject of crafting I usually lead them towards instead buying property and investing their raw gold into hiring and retaining services of skilled tradesmen.

Using D&D's RAW it takes anywhere from one week to four weeks to craft a set of full plate depending on interpretation; instead you're far better off hiring the services of a quartermaster to ship in raw materials and multiple blacksmiths to create a streamlined manufactory for said full plate, which you can then sell for significant fiscal returns. In a pinch you can then retask those blacksmiths to build something you need/want at a steep discount.

Usually the circumstances where my player groups feel compelled to mess with crafting are during the first two-three sessions of a game where their characters lack significant personal funds and are trying to save money by crafting their own potions, etc.

>>96052836
Yeah but GURPS characters aren't all adventurers. What if you want to play the demigod smith who forges the epic magic weapon?

>>96052903
>>96052775
>>96052903
Dungeon fantasy has the "make a crafting check to get 20% discount"
And low tech has actual proper crafting rules for mundane shit.
And thaumatology or magic forget which has proper rules for crafting magical shit.
And basic has the invention rules

>>96052831
>that's totally what people mean by the term crafting
What do you think people mean? In my experience when players want crafting they want to start from the basics, like making mundane swords and armor, gear, shelter, etc.

>>96052903
Don't get too pedantic over the term "adventurer". What it actually means is "a player character who is participating in this story, which is called an adventure".

In that sense, it still does not fucking matter what your character is, the problem with crafting is a metagame conflict. Crafting undermines the entire game system and the power structure of the participants sitting at the table. It's fundamentally incompatible with tabletop roleplaying games.

If you want to emulate a deity whose schtick is inventing shit or forging relics, then just use and suitably modify the Gizmos advantage on page 57 of Basic Set: Characters. You're a deity. You literally poof things into being. If you can't, then you aren't a deity. By definition.

>>96053404
You fucking troll. Kill yourself.

>>96052836
>anyway here's the rules for having a job and tech levels and economic status

>>96053873
>>96053881
Please shut the fuck up we don't care you aren't entertaining anyone with you willful idiocy

Why is this one anon having a meltie over crafting.
We've had crafting rules in games for decades.

>>96051698 (OP)
We have a dude at our table that's all about crafting shit.
He bends and stretches the system's (D&D 3.5e) crafting rules to the limit, even doing shit like extracting the positive effect of some cursed artifact without the associated drawback and stuff.

>>96051761
>It's because "crafting" is not gameplay. There are no choices or tradeoffs or risks or challenges to overcome.
Kind of.
For example, our crafting guy has a workshop inside our flying fortress where his minions (both living and robotic) work on some thing on the background, but only himself can make the most advanced shit.
So at some point we knew we needed to better equip the group to deal with a certain threat, and that would take considerable resources (money, a very rare special material), but more importantly, over a month of time where the character would be essentially absent, so we had to plan around that and decide balance the time pressures we were (and still are) under with the time it would take for him to finish his pieces.
Ultimately, we decided we'd do one last dungeon delve to gather some materials (and see what's up with the god fetus that got abducted by aliens) before he closed himself off inside his workshop for over a month (after a quick stop at the monarch's court to report), time during which the rest of the party did downtime investigation and other activities.
And there were consequences for skipping that much time. The situation seemed to change quite a bit, but at least we managed to gather some valuable information in the meantime, so there were pros and cons.
That kind of thing.
Also, the dude has a lot of fun talking about crafting this and that and discussing the intricacies of the system, it's really nice to see.

>>96053873
>Crafting undermines the entire game system and the power structure of the participants sitting at the table. It's fundamentally incompatible with tabletop roleplaying games.
Oh ok that's why I can play GURPS with Ultra-Tech/THS and use the minifac/3d printer to make whatever the hell I want

>>96053911
Those are for the GM to construct their setting with. They are not for players to even know about. And you know that, so you're proving you're acting in bad faith in the act of deceiving and misleading readers. Or you don't, in which case this is a board where adults are speaking and you need to shut the fuck up before we tell your mom you were on 4chan.

>>96054453
How is that not literally just going shopping?

>>96054490
>dropped in darkest Africa with a minifac
>HURR SHOPPING

>>96054478
>Those are for the GM to construct their setting with. They are not for players to even know about
You can't even make a character without knowing about those rules you double nigger

>>96051761
Play a game, faggot. Crafting systems have been implemented in countless games for decades, and they work just fine.
It's baffling how many issues on here could be resolved, if you idiots would just pick up a rule book from time to time.

I allow crafting at my table. Mundane stupid stuff is done in down time, stuff like making basic armor/weapons/items or trade goods. I won't waste significant session time on a players desire to be an isekai guy living the easy life.
What I will waste significant time on is if a player or players want to craft something extraordinary, which means they need to collect cool exotic resources, find mystical teachers and masters to impart skills, locate a special anvil, forge or hammer, and do a complicated ritual that might fail.

>>96051761
>There are no choices or tradeoffs or risks or challenges to overcome. There is no character development, it does not mean anything.
>Worse, it trivializes resource management while also negating any pressure to adapt which the GM might apply.
Sounds like you're just a shit GM.

>>96051698 (OP)
It takes a very specific player to work, someone that simultaneously is very invested in the system and knows it well enough to not slow the game to a crawl using it, and also someone that's not an asshole trying find the most degenerate crafting combinations.

These two qualities are often mutually exclusive.

>>96051750
Crafting isn't very good or interesting in most video games either.

>>96054280
How does 3.5 handle it? If you fail a crafting roll do you just fail to make the item or do you still makr it but now it's bad? My worry with crafting system is the situation where you try to set up your crafting shot, roll,then fail completely so all that preparation was pretty much for nothing

>>96054894
>Crafting systems have been implemented in countless games for decades
Name five, and work on your art.

All I will say is, as much as I love ACKS, the crafting requirements are a little bit excessive imho. Specially for an osr game

>>96056289
Who the fuck wants to keep track of whether you're carrying 46 or 47 bear asses in a tabletop game?

>>96051698 (OP)
get the needed materials and tools
make a roll in a relevant skill
better roll = better item or more of said item or quicker crafting as appropriate.

>>96056129
I never dabbled besides help planning which items to make, but as far as I can tell, for crafting using just the Craft skills, you make your check, if you fail by a certain amount, you only waste time (Eg. might take an extra week to finish), or if you fail real bad, you have to pay an extra cost that's something like half of the material cost or something.
For magic items, either crafting one from scratch or enhancing an existing item (like making a masterwork sword a +1 sword), you can't fail, you just need to have the correct feat, access to the necessary spell, and pay the cost (money, xp, materials, and a whole lot of time), and you are dandy.

>>96053873
>It's fundamentally incompatible
Retard. You've seriously never considered that crafting could just be like any other method of getting a resource?

>>96054478
you have never opened a GURPS book. these rules by default apply to every character and the player indeed interacts with them.

>>96056493
So it's shopping with extra steps. Which is to say, taking one of the most tedious parts of TTRPGs and making it more tedious.

>>96056168
Nta, but D&d3e, ACKS, Ars Magica, BitD, and Wildsea all have dedicated crafting rules of various complexity.

>>96056584
Which extra steps are your tiny mind envisioning?

>>96052859
I've never heard of using crafting systems to make fear.
Can you elaborate on the link between fear and crafting, and how it saves on travel?

I usually don't even require a roll, just that the players possess the knowledge (usually an appropriate skill, i don't like generic crafting skills), resources, tools and time necessary.
the more esoteric and advanced projects might require rolls for complications

>>96056634
Usually some subsystem of the skill rules. After all, what's better than a shopping trip than adding some skill rolls to the procedure?

>>96056334
>He doesn't track his bear asses
Get a load of this rube.

>>96056825
>complains about players having too much power
>doesn't make them roll for acquisition
Must be a dndrone or something, my shopping trips are literally just "I want X item" "roll for it against Y appropriate TN".

>>96056168
The guy you were replying to.
I'll pick from the list of games I've played:
>Dungeonslayers
>Genesys
>Barbarians of Lemuria
>Pathfinder 1E
>The dark Eye

Point still stands: You're a nogames faggot, that has likely never read a rule book.

>>96057113
Wots dat, Shadowrun? Always liked the FASA availability rating mechanic to be quite honest

>>96051698 (OP)
Realms of Terrinoth had pretty solid crafting rules.

Essentially needed to make a check and burn through material that equalled half the value of whatever you were trying to make. Crafting time was 1 day + the difficulty of the item you are trying to make. So a basic bitch dagger would be an easy check, so two days of down time. Magical anything would be at the minimum a Formidable difficulty (5 difficulty dice) and, for those unfamiliar with Genesys, is some very "high level" shit to accomplish with any kind of regularity and the cost of a magic item, even really mundane shit, is batshit, so it's best not to even try.

>>96056334
I mean for a legendary weapon of a certain kind I would say it makes sense. But I'd rather you kill one monster that gives the weapon it's magic of a specific type, than a whole bunch, that just gets grindy. And it calls into question, if you were able to kill 45 trolls, why did you need a magic weapon in the first place?

>>96059340
Custom brew. Treats items like a skill system (though obviously less permanent than innate abilities). Got a beefy computer? You can get a beefy bonus to tech rolls. But you gotta obtain it first, and the better value it is, the harder that gets.

Interesting arguments on both sides.

>>96051698 (OP)
crafting is lame and gay when they make you do it in video games why the fuck would anyone want to do it in a table top game unless they're lame and boring and think padding out a run time with dull activities to give themselves the illusion of progress is a good idea. You're living in a skinner box. Rethink your life.

>>96057113
Wow. Just what I wanted. An additional subsystem to make shopping trips take up more of the session.

>>96061893
>>>/v/
>>96061372
What sides?

>>96051698 (OP)
My favorites are PF2 and Cyberpunk 2020.
First one has a rather neat, solid system which goes well with core gameplay.
The latter allows for some insane stuff, not excusive, but a nice hook for adventure.

>>96061893
Just don't do video game crafting like ACKS apparently does

>>96061935
Availability is a based mechanic, because it prevents richfag PCs from just buying power armor unless they also have the connections to go with it.

Crafting can be cool if it's something narratively meaningful not just utilitarian. Think Celebrimbor crafting the ring. I ran an Exalted game where one of the players was a solar crafter and all instances of him using craft were to create some sort of wonder to solve a problem at hand

>>96061935
Not sure how you can get shorter than a simple check, but go ahead describe how you run shopping trips (you won't)

>>96051698 (OP)
I think crafting can be a fun side thing for players who want to make potions weapons and all. However you can't just hand wave the items and make it simple money and game time. I think a system with materials skill checks and game time required to make such times would work for it. Plus going on a quest to gather the materials to make a new magic sword or armor is a good GM side gig for a week if people are out or if they working to the main BBEG and all.

>>96054478
Those rules are literally in GURPS Lite you absolute retarded nogames nigger.

>>96062349
>go ahead describe how you run shopping trips (you won't)
Doesn't pretty much everyone run them as
>go to ye olde magic shoppe
>pay for desired items in pure gold
>leave

>>96051698 (OP)
If the game doesn't have crafting rules I just treat it as an alternative version of going shopping, usually with a caveat that rare magical items require themed resources.

You want a Cloak of Shadows? Go hunt a nightwalker. Want Gloves of Strength? You did fight a mutant gorilla last encounter. Shield of Spell Reflection? Get a beholder's antimagic eye.

>>96062651
People, e usually add a haggle roll to it. But if your players are taking that simple step and extrapolating it into something exhausting, then maybe you should stop playing either lobotomy patients.

>>96062798
>But if your players are taking that simple step and extrapolating it into something exhausting
Availability/crafting rolls are distinct from haggling and who the fuck thinks they're "exhausting"

>>96063137
Mr "crafting is fundamentally incompatible with rpgs"

>>96054894
Nothing is more eye-roll inducing than when garbage like you think you know enough to comment with "nuh uhhhh~!" The anime waifu reaction image is the cherry on top of the soft-serve curl crowning your shit head.

>>96054581
Categorically and absolutely wrong. Which you would know if you had read those books. So you're excluded from the conversation now.

>>96054568
Yeah, your GM totally drops you in naked darkest Africa without any resources and expects you to hastily assemble a full arsenal of nuclear weapons to prepare for the boss.
Huurrrrr indeed.
Tell us all how your survival crafting minigame contributes to the story. Go on. I'm dying to hear this. Tell us how inventing civilization from nothing but specifically "darkest Africa" is such a fucking interesting story.

>>96062349
Why isn't everything just a simple check?
>I wish to roll to win the game.
>Very well, flip a coin.
>I rolled a 2.
>Congratulations, you won the game.
Do you think maybe the problem isn't about rolling? Maybe the problem is some other effect that activity has on the story / game in a holistic sense?
Or you're just engaging in bad faith. Again. I'm sure you'll deny it again, too.

>>96064039
Ok, I'm interested to see where you try to move this goalpost. Now that your "it's le tedious!" argument has been thoroughly blown the fuck off, you're saying... What? That it ruins the tone of the game? Stop pussyfooting around and speak plainly, ffs!

>>96063987
Kek, Ribbon and Cestree are /tg/ staples, newfag.
Examples have been provided. Play a game, loser.

>>96064156
He probably thinks "crafting" is when you assemble an assault rifle in paleolithic setting.

>>96063987
>le waifu reaction image
>not even "work on your art"
You're not even a newfag, you're a fucking larva.

>>96063996
>B26 in character creation refers to B516 which is the job table
>AAAHHH I CAN'T VIEW SUCH ELDRITCH HORRORS HELP ME NIGGERMAN!

>>96064013
All it needs to do is make a gun out of scrap or something, dumbass
A 3D printer is going to raise fewer questions if you get inspected at the border than a gun would. In THS they're universal too so you can just feed the gun back in the printer probably

>>96064360
Maybe, but my guess it's some utter tripe like "it breaks le flow of le adventure", or some other cripplingly retarded critical roleism.

>>96051698 (OP)
How I like to do crafting is pretty complex, so I don't think you'd like it.

>>96051698 (OP)
99% of the time, it's a glorified fetch quest, with the remaining 1% being your players walking into a chance situation like a workshop where they might use the several levels of skills they dumped for a one-time cool scene of MacGuyvering a contraption or useful tool.

I like the way The Dark Eye does it. Your skill checks in the system always result in quality levels, which makes it easy to determine how good your crafted object is. Also, all craftable objects have levels of complexity: primitive, simple and complex. A wooden spear is primitive, everyone with some points in wood carving is capable of crafting one, given they have the materials and tools. A spear with an iron tip is simple. To craft it you need the general feat "Weapon Smith" that covers all simple metal weapons, plus the points in the associates talent (metal working in this case). But to craft a complex weapon, like some very fine spear exclusive to a certain culture, you need to spend points on the knowledge for that specific complex weapon, on top of the Weapon Smith feat.

>>96065933
Or a fibreglass spear with perfectly tuned aerodynamic balancing, fetching stabilizers, rifling, and sonic beacon.

>>96062219
ACKS hater alert.
Hell, ACKS isn't the only system that does "Video Game Crafting."

>>96070051
I don't know about any others
D&D does retard crafting but using XP to craft is pretty unique to it

what the fuck is "video game crafting"
I thought we were talking about crafting in tabletop
jesus these numbskulls gonna be the death of me

>>96070673
"Video Game Crafting" is basically gathering items and being able to craft them into weapons and armor with a simple skill check and game time. Crafting has been in DnD for years but often it wasn't worth it as it often cost XP to make something rather gaining XP for crafting. Where you being able to buy it cost only money

>>96070673
Vidya crafting is to me when you have a very specific list of materials that doesn't necessarily make any sense, like 50 orc skulls or something. D&D and GURPS just generally list "material cost" and that's fine.

>>96070512
Well, it's unique but gets in the way. As the spent XP hold you back unless everyone is spending their XP and all. Hints why I would homebrew it out and require skill check and level requirements

>>96070841
Way too broad of an example.
Nearly all ttrpgs do the "collect material then skill check" procedure. Video game crafting is when you have arbitrary lists of specific materials, often omitting the skill check.

>>96070849
Pretty much, though I don't mind the fetch quests and all for paying crafters especially for things rare and all. Like it requires proof you can handle said weapon so bring proof of your skill with collecting 50 skulls of something and gathering the materials needed to make it and some money. However I hate the just using gold and time, or using someone xp to make craft a item. I think make items have a craft level, material list and maybe a "blueprint" works best. That way at least the first one they make they need to find someone to help them who knows, or a book that teaches them to do it till they get it down.

>>96064223
>>96064369
Those are cartoons, they aren't real girls, and they can't love you because they are not real. And we can all tell from your phrasing that you're new enough to have never been confronted before. Maybe you should put some pants on and go get a job before I tell your mom you were gooning on 4chan again.

>>96064400
What does that have to do with the context of the conversation?

>>96071804
Because a certain nigger claimed the player isn't even supposed to look at the jobs or economy rules
Which is wrong

>>96071798
Big talk coming from someone not real

>>96071798
Should we call an ambulance?
You seem awfully worked up over something.

For anti-crafters ITT, what is the fundimental difference between,
>You find a +1 Longsword
vs
>You find magic metal +1 that you can use on any type of weapon you want once you return to town
or,
>You find gloves of climbing
vs
>You find stocky fantasy moss that makes contact with solid objects have more friction you can allow players to craft into whatever they want
?

The worst part of getting loot in tabletop as a player is essentially being forced to allow the GM to hand you these items on their own terms instead of allowing the players to turn items into whatever they would prefer for their character/s with the same or similar outcome based on the crafting material used in question. Does ot really matter if they get gloves of climbing vs boots of climbing, or rope of climbing of the end result is that their ability to climb gets better no matter how they choose to swing it?

>>96051698 (OP)
GADGETS
Heroes sometimes find themselves in need of a unique item in the middle of a story. While it normally takes a great deal of time to design and manufacture complex devices and machines in the real world, Heroes with superhuman intelligence or technical skill can do this in almost no time when the situation demands it. These hastily constructed items are Gadgets. To create a Gadget, you need to have at least 6d Technology. You also need access to tools, materials, and facilities. Assuming you have these things, the steps to creating a Gadget are as follows.

Step 1: Assign Complexity. Assign the Gadget a Complexity of anywhere from 3 to your Technology rank. A gadget’s Complexity determines how powerful it will be and how hard it will be to create.

Step 2: The Challenge Roll. Make a Technology roll using the gadget’s Complexity as the threshold. If successful, you build the Gadget. See step 3. If you succeed by only 1 or 2 points, the gadget will have some unique flaw, quirk, or side-effect, the nature of which is entirely up to the GM.

Step 3: Build the Gadget. If you make the roll, you gain a number of Hero Points equal to double the item’s Complexity to buy Abilities, Talents, and Powers that represent your new Gadget. By default, all Gadgets have the Item Con. You get no extra points for that. However, you can give your Gadget any other Pros and Cons you wish. Optionally, you can also use these Hero Points to modify mundane gear as discussed above — in effect, the Gadget represents your special modifications.

Whether or not you succeed, creating a Gadget takes one scene that lasts about 10 minutes times the item’s Complexity. Gadgets are inherently unstable and often temperamental. Roll one die each time you use one. When you roll less than the number of times you’ve used it, the Gadget stops working. The maximum number of Gadgets you can create per issue equals half your Intellect.

>>

>>

These rules cover the spur-of-the-moment, emergency kit- bashing that tech-savvy Heroes are notorious for. Characters who always have at least a few gadgets at the ready will normally have a Power like Omni-Power (Gadgets). However, if your GM allows it, you may be able to use these rules to create Gadgets before an adventure begins. If so, these Gadgets will still count against the total number of Gadgets you can create per issue.

You can also use Science to create Gadgets that represent compounds and materials or Medicine to create Gadgets that represent drugs and medicines. If your GM allows it, you might even be able to create magical or techno-magical Gadgets, depending on the game world. In that case, the GM will have to determine which Talent applies to creating such things. Regardless of what you create, the maximum number of Gadgets you can create per issue always equals half your Intellect.

>>96074617
Yes, of course it matters. For one, they might not find any of those items, which may require them to approach a situation in some other way, or expend other resources - therefore, it isn't a trivial decision.

Secondly, the gloves, boots, and rope all occupy different equipment slots, so each one has a different opportunity cost, according to what other items are available that the character could have equipped instead.

In that hyperboria system, astounding heroes and sorcerors of hyperboria or some shit, one of the base classes desperately needs crafting time. The witch gets numerous poisons and potions they can make, which effects that range from pretty damaging to the opponent falling in love with you for years.

This produces a constant thought of how you could get that guy/dragon/whatever that's stronger than you to drink one of your brews, along with a constant need to find some downtime to make more brews.

It leads to a playstyle involving much more planning and trickery, rather than fighting most obstacles.

>>96070841
>>96070849
>abstractions made for the sake of expedient gameplay are video games now

>>96076559
Yes. If you're not crafting a magic item in real life every time you do so in a game, you're playing a video game.

>>96075246
You havn't even begun to explain how this is a problem, Anon.

>>96077605
I didn't say it was a problem, and your post didn't ask if it was a problem. You asked if there was a difference between them. I explained what the difference between them is.

Is everyone on this site fucking retarded? Why do every single one of you imagine shit in posts that isn't there?

>>96077608
NTA, but just so you know, anon, when you have to resort to pedantry and semantics, you've lost the argument. Shut the fuck up, you insufferable little shit.

>>96079273
It's not pedantry nor semantics. You asked what the difference was, and you received an answer. You shut the fuck up.

>>96080854
You're arguing with more than 1 person, Anon.

>>96082416
Incorrect.

>>96076559
If there's a detailed list of stuff it's video gamey
Nobody likes that sort of thing, which is why there are spell component pouches

>>96076559
I do think it's pretty silly to require an extensive list of materials for every crafting attempt. Just ask for one or two thematically appropriate materials and have them pay the gold cost as if they were shopping otherwise.

>>96085743
Once again, having the lists and a check is an abstraction so you don't have to study engineering manuals just because you want your character to make something.
Detailed lists of stuff have existed ever since humans started writing things down.
But I guess someone should have told them not to do that, because it's too much like something that would be invented a million or so years later, because "nobody likes that sort of thing".

>>96085924
Thinking something is pretty silly doesn't make it video games, and drawing a false comparison just for the sake of hyperbole is extremely stupid.

>>96051698 (OP)
>Crafting
2012 called. They want their force-fed vidya mechanics back

>>96087385
You don't need a list. You don't have to study engineering manuals in either case. So this isn't an argument for or against your method.

>>96089280
>You don't need a list.
So why did >>96085924 and >>96085743 mention lists as part of their stupid nonsensical vidya comparison?

>>96091031
Because lists are things in video games, which you don't need in RPGs. Like they said. Is there something wrong with your eyes?

>>96073988
You should work on your art.

>>96091785
Nope, you should work on yours.

What mechanics make crafting interesting? Obviously if crafting is something you find completely unfun, I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise. Here's some things I think makes crafting unfun:
- The book-keeping exceeds the payoff.
- Success, in general, for crafts should be guaranteed. Blacksmiths make serviceable swords. You shouldn't be worried about failing at a task.
-It's shoehorned on to the normal "gameplay loop" and so it interrupts the other fun stuff.
- Attempting to overly mechanize contingency by altering modifiers rather than letting players make decisions first.

Thing that make it interesting:
- You can use shit you discover on your adventures.
- If you must roll to craft, you should get some benefit out of it
- Crafting, like encounters or well designed traps, should be about how you solve them not "I roll to craft"
- Lots of exciting stuff comes out of unexpected results. Crafting rarely allows for unexpected results

>>96056289
Here's the God's honest Truth: ACKS is perfectly fine. It's a work of art, in fact. The reason ACKS is a problem to some people and what makes it "Vidya" is the way to run things like magical crafting in ACKS is to WITHOLD the information in the Player Guide. No perusing lists of items and checklists of things to get. "What are you trying to craft?" "Some wand that lets me shoot fireballs, like that other Wizard had" "Okay how do you intend to make it?" Now the player has to figure out how to even learn to make it. Now they have to adventure to find out that it requires time and rare resources.

Here's where I might adjust ACKS. Rather than having to acquire an absolute bucket of Hellhound Fangs; maybe you only need one hellhound fang. But getting a hellhound fang is going to absolutely suck. The gold barrier is fine, in my experience as these incentives to adventuring are useful.

>>96092129
Con't

When the player dedicates time to crafting it, let them roll. Not to save money (maybe they can save a bit) or resources or even time (though that's probably the best payoff of a good roll)

Allow the roll to change aspects of the intended item in a way that is surprising or favorable if they roll well. They didnt *just* get a wand of Fireball, now when it's out of charges it begins to glow and pulse. Your testing revealed that the energies within the wand from the hellish force will tear it open and- yes, your testing is irrefutable, your arcane arithmetic is correct- birth a Hellhound after a certain amount of time. Careful testing has revealed that the energy appears to reach a nadir shortly after four seconds.

Now you have a Wand of Fireball that also serves as a Hellhound Grenade when it's used its last charge.

Lastly, you need to allow for downtime and record keeping in your game. Pendragon does this so well. You have to give your players a few months to do shit between adventures. Have a session or half session where they decide on various downtime activities and grow their character, train their character, and expand their domain.

>>96075225
/thread

bump

>>96101909
I mean...
>>96092134
>>96092129
>>96075225
>>96075218

Pretty much solved it.

>>96092134
>>96092129
I'm going to put it to you plainly, chief.

Any system which demands more investment than the created item is useful is a system no one will use. You'll get someone to bite the bait once. Maybe they'll even praise it. Then never do it again. Cause, whenever they approach the issue, they remember how much pleasure they got out of what happened versus how much work it cost. This evaluation is automatic in the background of the mind of the person. Not active. It spits out in your conscious view as
>Eh.. maybe some other time.
before you go to do something more practical. Note, this is also why certain types of video games will never be popular. No matter how big a clever upstanding nerd you pretend to be, you've done it too.

Let me put it simply. The effect given must be more than what was put in to gaining that effect or you've wasted every unit of [work] that went into it. Even abstract units of work. This is how the world works. Methods that take more energy than they put out in results have always been bad. I'll put this in an even more basic way. Suppose you put more effort in to gaining food than you get energy from the food. What happens? You die.

>>96102270
Incorrect, I have used every crafting system that has ever been made, and regularly.

>>96102270
You didn't read my post, did you?

Quite the based thread.

>>96107187
Which were your favorite?

>>96056289
Huh that looks like FATAL tier boring unplayable autism.

>>96054280
>D&D 3.5e
That has so many god damn effects, magical trinkets, mundane items, grafts, and shit that you can craft from zero or on existing items, it's kind of insane.
The Magic Item Christmas Tree Character effect at its finest. I love it.

>>96126142
Dude, any math outside of simple addition and subtraction is "unplayable autism" to you