Is this actually an accurate representation of the tabletop game? Should one structure their campaigns like this with the Camarilla being the vampire mob using young new vampires in their chess games against each other while also being manipulated behind the scenes by greater powers? I'm asking because it seems like fans online think that the tabletop should be more personal horror while Bloodlines presents it more as Vampire gangland.

>>96080098 (OP)
I despise the organized crime meme and would strongly disagree that is how Bloodlines presents itself. However, on the off chance this isn't one of the WoD bait threads that have been spammed as of late, I ask you this.

Why do you give a fuck what "fans online" think? If you want to run the tabletop, run it with whatever tone or direction you and your friends want.

>>96080138
>I despise the organized crime meme and would strongly disagree that is how Bloodlines presents itself.
Why do you disagree?

>>96080138
>I despise the organized crime meme
It's not a meme. This is literally how the 1e book outlined play when WoD was first coming out.

>>96080181
I'm just gonna repost an old diatribe because I ain't rewriting this crap.

The mafia (la cosa nostra in specific) and organized crime in general do not rely on the absolute veil of secrecy that vampires do. Most mobsters are, especially by the time they hit the big leagues, known to be mobsters by the authorities and sometimes even civilians. They hide behind due process, corruption, and in some cases like the Mexican Cartels, the inability for the state to hold a monopoly on violence. This a bad comparison for vampire, where no character can be a "known vampire" for very long. Furthermore the double life of a mobster is far more simple than the double life of a vampire holding on to their humanity, itself not a universal practice. Not to mention, It also doesn't help that the term is often used more in reference to mobster movies than actual organized crime practices.

There *are* some similarities between organized crime and unlife, but not enough to warrant the constant comparisons. Anecdotally, I have never ran or played in a Vampire game that felt like a mob movie or like actual mafia hijinks. Camarilla games (the norm for my group) feel more like a political thriller or a character focused drama than goodfellas or godfather. Sabbat games don't feel like playing the Cartel either, frankly the Cartels run a tighter ship and the Sabbat gives very little fucks about making money off of dope. That's the big area where the comparison falls apart in my estimation, organized crime is ultimately a financial enterprise. Vampire politics are more about survival throughout the centuries, and far more diverse in their purpose, scope, and interest.

>>96080243
>Why I think it's reductive
This is the bigger problem. It's inherently limiting. "Just add whatever horror movie on top of that and you have a plot for vampire" puts you in an extremely limited window of what you can do. One of the things I like about vampire is you can play it many different ways, you can have high level political intrigue, a holy war of the damned, a study of the human condition, a classical tragedy, or the tale of normal people having their lives turned upside down, to name a few.

So when people repeatedly reduce VtM to a mafia movie but with vampires, especially as a way to shorthand its themes or what it plays like to prospective players, it can put them into a mindset that becomes very hard to break out of. You see this in the D&D community with the people who refuse to stop playing 5e, even when they want to do things that D&D in general, let alone 5e, is unfit to run.

To liken it to something as narrow as organized crime or more accurately the pop-culture perception of organized crime is needlessly limiting what someone can do with VtM, when it is frankly capable of doing so many more interesting things.

Even if I were to accept that it were a reasonable comparison, its overuse does a disservice to the other comparisons one could make. It isn't helped that I typically see this view pushed by tabletop youtubers, who are frankly infamous for reductive, moronic takes designed to make nogaems clap.

>>96080243
>>96080248
The "Vampire is just like the Mafia, just run/play it like it's a mob movie/show/whatever" thing (I agree its inaccurate and reductive) is a super old meme at this point, but I think the blame for its current year resurgence can be laid squarely at the feet of one Youtube video in particular. Having said that, >>96080138 what bait threads have been spammed?

>>96080248
In spite of what those Shadowdawk simping Austinites have to say, I think Camarilla intrigue is a lot closer to a spy thriller than Bloodfellas.

>>96080582
>Why did God give Caine superpowers if it's supposed to be a curse?
>Why can't Werewolves beat Pentex?

Those threads. Which YT video in specific do you think caused the resurgence?

>>96080599
I'd agree. Even at the bottom of the Camarilla's pecking order the rabbit hole is very deep.

>>96081023
>Which YT video in specific do you think caused the resurgence?
"You've Been Playing Vampire The Masquerade WRONG" with 150k views

>>96080599
Anyone who looks at the Camarilla and thinks organised crime (in the sense of the mafia) before local government corruption, espionage, and corporate backstabbing lacks creativity, IMO

>>96081323
>local government corruption, espionage, and corporate backstabbing
But I thought you were arguing against it being like organized crime?

>>96081802
>>96081323
>organised crime (in the sense of the mafia)
>(in the sense of the mafia)

>>96080243
>>96080248
Yes, you're right. The Masquerade is akin to espionage for non-official cover agents, where the stakes are much more lethal to the participants and so require far more secrecy and espionage tradecraft. The idea of double- and triple-agents also fits the Camarilla/Sabbat far better.

That said, I think Bloodlines did a bang-up job of presenting the kind of atmosphere a tabletop game should have, with political rivalties, backstabbing, betrayals, assassinations, petty rivalries and plain insanity throughout.

>>96080098 (OP)
It's a decent representation, yeah. The biggest difference between the video game and the ttrpg is the combat, though. There isn't that much action or combat, if you're running it by the lore. The countless vampires and monsters populating every dungeon are probably in the many thousands, if you add up everything in the game. That population is a hundred times what it should actually be.

>>96080243
>>96080248
Cope

>>96081857
Oh I would agree Bloodlines is a good game and a perfectly fine inspiration for your chronicle, I got my intro to the setting through it as well. I just hate the mafia oversimplification.

>>96080138
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know what's common. You gotta know what is normal if you want to deviate from it with purpose, and actively avoiding influence from the norms is just another form of blind adherence to norms.

>>96080098 (OP)
>using young new vampires in their chess games against each other while also being manipulated behind the scenes by greater powers
This is a major theme of V:tM, yes. Vampire society is a vast network of intersecting secret societies, conspiracies and cults, which are more alien and unknowable the further you go up the chain. The Jyhad is a game played over centuries, nothing is ever as it seems. Mafia isn't a perfect metaphor, but a kind of neo-noir paranoia is a good place to start.

>>96081023
>Why did God give Caine superpowers if it's supposed to be a curse?
I hate how that can be answered with a Google search
Anyone who reads this and doesn't know
God gives Cain the classic curse
Lilith makes him a god
Three angels give an opportunity to repent and be freed
Cain said no
Gets cursed to only drink blood,die in sun and fear fire
Curse is passed by blood due to Liliths influence
That's why she's called the dark mother and Cain dark father

>>96080138
>>96080243
Ah, I see the problem now, you're actually unironically autistic and cannot comprehend analogy and comparisons without it being 1:1.

Reconsider suicide.

>>96085343
Sabbat nonsense.

>>96085569
The Sabbot nonsense is the idea he wants his children to be mindless monsters
Cain just wants to make a living in this economy as a Taxi driver
>It's my head cannon Cain stays hidden just to keep away from his annoying descendents bothering him for blood,schemes or start the biggest supernatural war since the war of rage

>man I sure hope this is a genuine thread and not WoD bait thread
>it's a WoD bait thread

>>96085569
The Sabbat don’t allow Lilithfags, their inquisition hunts bahari

>>96085963
I hate that White Wolf apparently hated the Cain taxi driver thing and made sure it wasn't canon. The idea that Cain is just wandering the earth, quietly observing and not really wanting to get involved in vampire shit and doing normal work is a fun idea.

>>96080098 (OP)
>Is this actually an accurate representation of the tabletop game?
its a close approximation of how you were supposed to run games way back in the 90s
but the tabletop moved on to focus on the cammies vs sabbat, with the tremere as the protagonist house with the anarchs in the background
whereas VTMB is still rooted in the anarchs vs cammies conflict

>>96080098 (OP)
>That a ghoul? Ova here!

>>96086767
I'm only here outta respect fuh my Sire

>>96086049
To me VtMB is closer to the platonic ideal of how a Vampire campaign plays out. It's the campaign you want to have, but have a hard time executing.

>>96086049
>>96086895
So if I wanna try to run a Vampire campaign Bloodlines would be a good template to base it on?

If you're a tabletop World of Darkness player who got into the World of Darkness franchise through the actual tabletop game, Bloodlines is kind of cool but very formulaic and basic, where every clan only exists as a very simple stereotype. It's good for onboarding newbies, at the risk of them becoming a Bloodlines secondary, but it's definitely not a perfect interpretation of Vampire the Masquerade.

If you're a Bloodlines secondary who got into the World of Darkness franchise through Bloodlines before they knew anything about the game, Bloodlines is the absolute ideal of everything that Vampire the Masquerade and the World of Darkness should be. It is the perfect interpretation of the World of Darkness. The actual tabletop World of Darkness alternates between being way too edgy and serious, and way too wacky and weird, while Bloodlines is the epitome of what the World of Darkness and Vampire the Masquerade should be instead, and represents all of the squandered potential of the franchise.

>>96080098 (OP)
There's several versions (editions) of Vampire roleplaying system and each puts implicit emphasis on different aspects of the setting, but each can also be used (if perhaps less efficiently) for other themes.
tl;d: either works

>>96087479
With the tabletop, I actually think Requiem is actually closer to getting you that Bloodlines experience ootb than VtM or V5.

>>96087622
If you can get the Bloodlines secondaries to leave the World of Darkness alone and move to the sinking ship of CofD instead, I'll give you a blowjob.

>>96087652
Isn’t World of Darkness also a sinking ship with how paradox is handling it?

>>96087705
Yes, but it's sinking slightly slower, therefore I can look down on it for one last smug moment before I drown too.

>>96087705
Paradox is already making moves to ditch it - they transferred the trademark and all associated responsibilities back to White Wolf, who is now their subsidiary, but the move suggest they are getting ready to let them go together with WoD as a whole (including accountability for Bloodlines 2).

>>96087793
It's amazing how much the Nordic LARPers have mismanaged Bloodlines 2

>>96080243
>la cosa nostra

It’s just “Cosa Nostra”. It means “our thing”. La Cosa Nostra would be “the our thing”, which is just as nonsensical in Italian as it is in English.

>>96087793
It's also run by a Dnd head
Wod is going to be all about how misunderstood the supernatural is and toss the rest in the garbage

>>96087716
Spoken like a Ventrue

>>96088682
>It's also run by a Dnd head
Really? Whose in charge of White Wolf these days?

>>96080248
>is needlessly limiting what someone can do with VtM, when it is frankly capable of doing so many more interesting things.
VtM is exactly the same as dnd: a dead IP that ran its course and can't be used to play anything else because is unimaginative

>>96080098 (OP)
>Is this actually an accurate representation of the tabletop game?
No, the amount of combat (and the nature of it - killing multiple Vodhz, the tzimisce, and whatever the fuck is the sheriff) is *way* too much.
Other than that, yes, up to a point.

>>96080243
You act like vampires don't act in an "openly secret" manner just like mafiosos. They just hide the fact they're damned devils that can never venture out towards the sun again.

>>96089626
The things in sewers were actual Vodhz? IIRC they were made from 3 co-joined people and war ghoul should be 10+.

Its pretty accurate to VtM 3rd edition and its derivate games.
A lot of things have changed since then. And not necessarily for the better.

So how does VTM Redemption do in comparison to Bloodlines in representing the tabletop game? Better? Worse? Far too different to compare?

>>96089626
>and whatever the fuck is the sheriff

A Nagaloper. One of the Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom. Nagalopers are probably a Tzimisce bloodline. The Sheriff becoming the Chiropteran Marauder is a six-dot Vicissitude power from Vampire: the Dark Ages.

>>96091071
Dark Ages part of Redemption playthrough has you kill more vampires than there was in entirety of Europe at the time, the game makes learning new powers way too easy (should require mentor and extensive time investment, not just reading a book), and obviously some powers were tweaked because their tabletop version would make no sense in hack&slash game, but in broad thematic strokes it fits the setting.
Bonus points for mentioning Josef Zvi, who later becomes Prince of Prague.

Bloodlines would have been better if you could fuck LaCroix

>>96089626
So if you just reduce the amount of combat encounters by a lot, make it more dangerous when it happens, and otherwise just focus on the politicking and scheming in bloodlines you’d have a decent tabletop campaign?

>>96091516
Ideally you would want to make all of the characters deeper than the one-dimensional clan archetypes that fill Bloodlines.

>>96091556
that was a conscious choice on their part, because they went into the game with the assumption a majority of people playing this game have never heard about the WOD series before
and many of the kindred you interact with may be the only representative of that clan that you meet, so they were made to have as many stereotypical traits of their clan as possible so your first or even only experience with one would be the textbook example of one

>>96093370
But that's a bad idea for an actual tabletop game, which requires players to read through the books and gain an adequate idea of what the clans are like, before they even begin their first session. Throwing nothing but cookie-cutter clan archetypes at your players may end with them getting bored, even if you somehow make them as compelling as the ones in Bloodlines.

>>96086002
To be fair the Sabbat Inquisition is ludicrously incompetent. They have more infernalists and lilithfags than the Camarilla does.

>>96080098 (OP)
Mechanics-wise - kinda. It's a VERY loose interpretation of the system, but I guess a necessary one for this kind of a videogame.
Tone-wise - yeah. As much as White Wolf wanted VtM to be about "personal horror", the game itself was always leaning more towards "grungy superheroes with fangs" type of stories, to the point at one point WW just embraced the inherent sillines of the setting. And Bloodlines takes full advantage of that.

>>96080098 (OP)
Real answer step by step:
Step 1. Read the rules
Step 2. Ponder upon what kind of game the rules suggest
Step 3. Play the game
It is this fucking simple but /tg/ is too low iq to under stand this.

>>96080098 (OP)
The reality is that vtm is a lot of things to different people and changed what it was trying to be multiple times over the course of editions. It ranges from Anne Rice Simulator on one end of the spectrum to Blade: The Unlicensed on the other, with Blood Cult Boogie and Emo Machiavellis somewhere in the middle.

>>96093551
> which requires players to read through the books and gain an adequate idea of what the clans are like
I personally advise against this for a first session. A complete read through of even the core book will leave the players having significantly more knowledge than a typical neonate actually has. Especially if the first game is going to be a fairly bog-standard Camarilla or Anarch one, my advice for a first-time troupe is for the players to learn the rules and not bother with details about clans and history beyond the stereotypes, and for a first-time storyteller to lean into those stereotypes the same ways first-time DM is probably best off doing a simple dungeon with goblins or something.

>>96094977
>and not bother with details about clans and history beyond the stereotypes

(in fact to some extent I encourage Storytellers to give deliberately wrong informationto new players, especially concerning independent or opposed clans. A typical Cammy neonate should think the Sabbat are a single clan, for example).

>>96094178
More like Anne Rice to The Fantastic Four. VtM turned into cape-shit by the end of its run.

>>96095336
Hey, if that's the game people wanted to play, who are we to tell them they're wrong?

>>96095366
ngl, I'd play in Crimson Bat's party and be laughing my ass off the whole time

>>96095366
I legit am playing the crimson bat archetype at an online game right now

I am the RED NIGHT!
Also called hobo Batman, the party’s default dialogue option if no one speaks quickly enough, the tank and heavy muscles, as well as underground parking lot enthusiast.

>>96095366
I'm a strong believer in the term Wacky Wild World Of Darkness

It's as horrific as real life but it's also full of wonder and funny happenings like Supernatural Wrestling or Midnight Circus
Just look at any Chinese Emperor

>>96095323
>hey neonate, did you know that killing the head vampire will cure your affliction?

>>96080138
>>96080243
>>96080248
This autist REALLY hates the common and sufficient vernacular you use, and he's going to make damn sure you're as uncomfortable as possible for daring to use it in HIS presence!

>>96080248
Problem is that cuts both ways. The premise is without further guidance little more than saying 'superpowered protagonists exist'. Nascent fans have to start with something or their creative faculties will never be engaged.

>>96102070
I demand a higher quality of elevator pitches, then. If a basic intro to VtM with its ancient conspiracies, unique lineages, and secret societies isn't enough to stoke someone's creative faculties, I'm not sure they have any.

>>96102200
>I demand
Nah, make a better one or I'll purposefully spam the mafia trope everywhere I can from now on.

>>96095336
>turned into cape-shit
Yeah I said blade.

>>96109256
Some motherfuckers is always trying to ice skate uphill.

>>96080098 (OP)
>Vampire Gangland
It is this. New player characters are children of their sires, who are established members of the Camarilla. They are pawns on the chessboard.
That being said, there are lots of different ways to set up your campaign. If you don't want a Camarilla campaign, then do a Sabbat game.
>Surprise. The Sabbat is even worse
Sabbat players are expendables in a greater war
>Completely anarchist Anarchs
Okay, you're Anarch vampires. You still live in a place where older, wiser, vampires live and are subject to their games.
>We live outside of the city
Okay, go watch "Near Dark" and see how that goes for your players. Now throw werewolves into the mix who hate vampires and live in the countryside
>Bro, I just wanna vamp alone, bro
You now live in the Alaskan wilderness. It is -30F outside. You freeze solid.
The structure and hierarchy of Vampire society exists to keep the players under control as they play evil monsters in a modern world full of sheeple. Use it. It is a fine constraint and will make your games better. Let the players run amok, especially that first session, and then let session 2 be about getting hauled before the Prince to explain themselves and learn consequences.

>>96080098 (OP)
Frankly I think both are true. The very nature of an organization like the Camarilla means they would have to use underhanded tactics similar to any organized crime family. The personal horror comes from individuals having to deal with their new lives in this much more hellish environment. I really didn't like that Bloodlines didn't fully embrace how drastic of a change it is for you. I can only imagine this is a result of rushed development because my favourite encounter in the game is with someone called Samantha. When you reach Hollywood she suddenly recognizes you. This could have been a source of a lot of solid character work but you're only able to get rid of her in various ways. Can't talk to her, plead with her, and biting her is just like biting any other NPC. Bloodlines nails what I think larger Vampire Society operates like but has some harsh misses on what its like to have just been turned.