LTG edition

>Bans
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/banned-and-restricted-june-30-2025

>News
The 2025 MagicCon and Pro Tour Schedule:
https://www.magic.gg/news/the-2025-magiccon-and-pro-tour-schedule

>Spoilers
http://www.magicspoiler.com/
https://mythicspoiler.com/

CONSTRUCTED RESOURCES
>Current meta, complete with deck lists
https://www.mtgtop8.com/
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/
>Build and share casual decks
https://deckstats.net/
https://tappedout.net/

CUBE RESOURCES
>Build and share Cubes
https://cubecobra.com/landing

CARD RESOURCES
>Search engines
https://scryfall.com/
https://mtg.wtf/
>Proxy a deck or a cube for cheap
https://www.makeplayingcards.com/
https://pastebin.com/9Xj1xLdM
>Play online for free
https://untap.in/
https://dr4ft.info/

>What is EDH?
https://vocaroo.com/1ihc21gJLBh1

>WotC's War Crimes
https://pastebin.com/JRYDiAjq (OLD)
https://pastebin.com/nEcKGAys (NEW)

>Previously
>>96080786

>TQ
Hopes and fears regarding EOE?

>>96102629 (OP)
>TQ
We still haven't seen an insect lord in the set with significantly more insect creatures than Duskmourn, and I'm starting to worry I was a fool for assuming WotC would give the creature type any serious tribal support outside Swarmweaver. The deck should still have enough cards to be function, but I'm worried I'd be better off running a generic landfall deck.

Wrong previous thread you dolt.
>>96091634

This set really, really, REALLY sucks.
Like worse than MKM tier shit holy fuck.

>>96102629 (OP)
>tq
I'm ok with the rav-lands reprints

>>96102629 (OP)
>literally green murder
when, exactly, did they start to stray from the color pie?

>>96102652
Apparently he got some sort of cool art card. Not sure why he's mythic on this version, guess all of the special art cards are probably mythics.

>>96102629 (OP)
red removal: KYS
green removal: KYS
white removal: here have a couple maps
blue removal: totemization
black removal: target creature gets -0/-9999 until end of turn

>>96102657
why do people hate on MKM so much?
Yeah it wasn't a good set, but it had a HUGE number of playable, pushed cards, and made all kinds of impact on standard.
Sure thematics were dumb, story was dumb, card arts were dumb, etc etc, but at least it wasn't a pack full of coasters
MKM was no where near as bad as DFT
And DFT vs EOE is looking like its a cripple fight and I don't know which is going to wind up being worse overall

>>96102629 (OP)
Pauper bulk bin pulls! Only 134 cards to go for goblins and slivers.

goyfbros why did we get demoted?

>>96102863
I'm always on the lookout for pauper Elves cards in the bulk bin but they never show up under $1

>>96102860
all you retards really care about for each set is how many pushed cards you get added to Standard huh

>>96102904
What's the point of showing off an iconic creature while also pumping out strictly better versions that make it useless?

>>96102913
Who else cares about Standard? It's not an environment for Johnny's, that's the eternal formats. It's not for Timmy's either, because they keep fucking up the creature designs with most of the powerful feeling creatures being small and incorrectly statted compared to their art/feel. All the pushed creatures are low cost.

mtga literally gives me playsets of the worst most useless rares just to avoid having to give me something playable

How the fuck is Pioneer so dead on Arena? Why does everyone play Standard?

>>96102969
WotC dropped all support for Pioneer as a format because no one cared about it.
It was essentially only ever for shitty Standard players to play the old rotated cards they were tricked into buying.

>>96102947
goes straight into my brawl deck!

>Green removal

Angels in space

>>96102907
It's hit or miss. I'm very salty as I found a full player of goblin sledder BUT it was the world championship gold border version. Can't play it in any tourneys.

>>96103117
Full playset*

SET THEME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDwjLlkb9fU

why aren't 8rack style decks more common in premodern?
ensnaring bridge exists
the rack exist
dark ritual exists
more potent discarders exist

>>96103237
Because 8rack is sorta stinky as a strat.

>>96103237
https://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?archetype=Pox&format=Premodern

>>96103237
Not actually having 8 racks in the format might be part of the problem. You have The Rack and then all the others are 3 mana.

Why this set ended so shitty? If you could change something about this set what would be?

>>96102919
commander

>>96103483
>If you could change something about this set what would be?
If I could change one thing about EOe, it would be its existence at all.
It was a shit idea from its inception. Completely anachronistic to MTG's setting and a complete breach of its decades of worldbuilding.

The one aspect of EOE that I would change is for it to not exist.

>>96103483
spoilers aren't over yet, right?

>>96102947
I like Banner of Kinship as a playset in my Explorer format Elf deck.

>>96103483
I would never a print a single fucking station card.

THIS
SET
SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

>>96103545
>>96103483
but le shock lands?
le ancient tomb?

>>96103577
Shock lands quickly approaching total market saturation.

>>96103577
When you see shocklands in a Standard set you know it is going to be pure ass and they were clearly added to try to incentivize people to buy it anyway.

EOE has revealed absolutely nothing so far.

Night's Whisper after going through some hoops.

>>96103606
PUT A BLACK HOLE ON IT AND MAKE IT LAME AND GAY

And artifact mana dorks in blue, again.

>>96103577
I already own Shocklands. I was expected things that would shake up my formats, like Sliver support, Eldrazis un Standard finally, busted Warp cards, what i got? A hideous version of Crew, horrible new tokens and boring cards.

No thanks. EoE failed just as hard as FF.

>>96103611
Unique. Visionary. Bold. Creative. Totally fresh. Absolutely unique. Never been done before.

>>96103483
Put some white people in and on it.

>>96103483
White males need representation on mono white cards.

>shock lands are back
Why did they only print 5 in space meaning the next half will be in a different and aesthetically inconsistent. I can't wait to see space Stomping Ground next to Spiderman NYC subway Blood Crypt.

Warp would have been really cool design space if they didn't stupidly staple being able to cast it from exile later, because they're apparently terrified of making a design that isn't infinite free value for no reason.

>>96103660
IMO the saddest thing about warp is that it's just the deformed crack-baby of flashback and adventures. It's just the same old thing we've seen over and over.

is station a lost cause?

>>96103676
>IMO the saddest thing about warp is that it's just the deformed crack-baby of flashback and adventures. It's just the same old thing we've seen over and over.
But actually though it is LITERALLY just Adventure but open to more degeneracy and with less design space.

>>96103657
Arachnid Human.

>>96103657
GB shockland=Uncle Ben's Tomb
Imagine LMAO

>>96103735
don't give them ideas

>>96103483
this set is 20 times better then FF

>>96103611
I like the art.

>>96103609
this art literally is the coolest shit

>>96103858
>this art literally is the coolest shit
BALLS.

>>96103858
>>96103924
>balls are touching
He's right. It's gay.

Bob sucks. I'd mainboard preacher any day over him.

>>96103924
>wtf the black hole worshippers have black holes in their cards

>>96103986
>"Bro, we had a stupid idea and then put the stupid idea on everything that has to do with the stupid idea!"
Wow, that's stupid.

>>96104002
you thinking it's a stupid idea does not make it a stupid idea.

>>96104018
It being a stupid idea does, though.

>>96103986
Oh no no no

>>96104018
>Tch. Didn't you know that everything is relative!
>That's just your opinion, man!
The inevitable, predictable argument employed by 63iq pseuds.

>>96104057
>still can't explain why he thinks the things he does
kek

>>96104073
I can. You are not intelligent enough to be worth it.

>"Nether cast ye your pearls before swine."

>>96104073
I'm not that guy, and while black holes are neat and all, it's really fucking aesthetically boring that there's a black hole on like every third card. Making black holes into completely commonplace things that aren't even a big deal completely wastes their potential, and is another symptom of the completely pedestrian low-effort worldbuilding that has plagued magic ever since they got rid of blocks.

>>96104107
Pearls before swine, anon.
Their reply will be total shill pseudo-intellectual slop nonsense. You already know this will be the case.
It's not worth it, friend.

>>96104107
Why are they not a big deal? They are the Monoists' main symbol and weapon. They don't have to be legendarily rare to be powerful or a big deal. There are literally quintillions of black holes in space, I still think they're terrifying.

>>96104153
>Why are they not a big deal?
Go ahead. Use your brain. You can figure out what your interlocutor is expressing, and engage with that notion in good faith, rather than simply devolving into pedantry and vapid questioning.

At least, I hope you can. For your sake.

>>96104092
>I could totally do that I just choose not to
Why are zoomers like this?

When WotC said they were doing a space set, the last thing I expected was for them to adapt the famous 1992 Danish English-language satirical science fiction short film,

Very bold of them. Very brave.

>>96104165
>larps as a christian
>ur actually not talking in good faith
kek

>>96104165
I am engaging with you. You say that the monoists having lots of black holes makes them less special. But that's fucking retarded. Black holes are their symbol, their weapon, their identity and their ideology is "make as many black holes as possible, then toss yourself into them".

>>96104216

>wtf why does the system with a black hole in its center have a black hole in the background of arts
it's like asking why so many photographs have the Sun visible

>>96104232
why doesn't the black hole pull everyone to their death then retard

>>96104250
black holes' gravity is not inescapable or infinite. there is a staggeringly massive black hole in the center of the galaxy and yet we're still talking to each other instead of being pulled

>>96104232
WotC designed the set, anon.
WotC chose to put the same motif on a third of all the cards in the set, anon.
It was their creative choice to make everything repetitive and identical, anon.
The sun is an ever-present aspect of earthly existance.
Black holes in EoE are lazy worldbuilding propped up by a crutch of vapid "Le Epic!!!!!" (tm) trope worship.

>>96104224
>gets btfo
>completely avoids the subject
You're too stupid to explain your own thoughts and are too disingenuous to actually follow a religion.

>>96104280
Stay mad about your proven inability to engage in meaningful conversation, brainlet.

>>96104250
Because space is much larger than you think it is. And emptier, too.

>>96104232
Competently shot photographs don't have the sun visible, though. Visible sun in a picture means the subject is backlit and the whole thing will be overexposed. You should always have the sun behind the camera for a photo.

>>96104264
Sothera isn't "a motif" on a third of the cards. It's literally just there, at the background, because it was the fucking sun. If I take a picture of Earth a good amount of the angles will show the fucking Sun because IT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SYSTEM RETARD

>>96104297
>Because space is much larger than you think it is. And emptier, too.
Except EoE space. In EoE space, black holes and big ass planets and shit are literally everywhere, all close together. Just like modern neoliberal morality. Literally everywhere in the multiverse has exactly the same moral values with zero exceptions, even the villains.

>>96104305
>Sothera isn't "a motif" on a third of the cards. It's literally just there, at the background, because it was the fucking sun. If I take a picture of Earth a good amount of the angles will show the fucking Sun because IT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SYSTEM RETARD
See, your problem is that you are talking as if the entire concept isn't a shit idea to begin with.

Newsflash: It's a shit idea. It was also badly implemented, but it being a shit idea from tip to tail negates all possible arguments about the implementation of said idea. A tree rotten to the root, bears no fruit.

>>96104312
>Literally everywhere in the multiverse has exactly the same moral values with zero exceptions, even the villains.
?????
what the fuck are you even talking about. the whole set is about the utterly incompatible morals of the main factions.

>>96104333
>the utterly incompatible morals of the main factions.
But all of them accept the gays. That is non-negotiable common ground.

>>96104324
the "entire concept" of a system with a black hole in the middle? you mean like every fucking black hole, because they form from stars in the first place and the solar systems they had don't magically go away??

>>96104346
No the concept of this dumbass bottom-of-the-barrel, lazy trope space opera shit in MTG, you idiot.

>>96104339
there is no mention of a single character's sexuality through the story or the cards. nobody is having any sex at all at any point.

>>96104354
>"If nobody says it, it's not obvious."
A totality of evidence does not require a confession.

>>96104372
sounds like you're going around and obsessing over whether characters take it up the ass or not when nobody ever so much as mentions sex in the story because it's simply not relevant.

>>96104354
ITT we should argue about pauper and modern again

>>96104376
Yep. Sure am.
Not a fan of totally retarded settings that obliterate verisimilitude for the sake of conforming to neoliberal utopian fantasies.

Deal with it.

>>96104390
why is there verissimilitude in the suicide cult hating gays for no actual reason whatsoever

The set isn't giving me much to work with (as expected), but there are a few salvageable designs.

>>96104397
I don't think the suicide cult would care. Overwatch chuds would be the ones persecuting gays.

>>96104397
Non sequitur.
Verisimilitude comes from consistency in reasoning of people within a setting.

Verisimilitude is broken when the political fixations of a creative director break the 4th wall in how obnoxiously obvious it is.

>>96104390
Yeah, so the story should pause every five minutes to clarify to us what the characters' opinions on gay sex are when it adds nothing to the story and they have no reason to do this, purely to appease you, got it.

>>96104415
Argument from absurdity. Do better.

>>96104422
Literally explain to me how this "obvious fixation" exists when at no point nobody as much as mentions their sexuality or clarifies to us what the factions' opinions on gays are? There aren't even any couples period.

>>96104407
Why would they bother?

>>96104430
>Literally explain to me how this "obvious fixation" exists
It is plainly obvious by virtue of the evidence, and in line with the totally consistent track record of the company which produced the product.

>>96104439
>it's obvious because of the evidence
>ok show me the evidence
>the evidence is obvious because of the evidence
yeah you just make up shit to get mad about huh

>>96104312
Anon what the fuck are you talking about.

>>96104402

>>96104447
Gaslighting does not work on competent people.

>>96104447
>ok show me the evidence
I don't know why you thought this would be difficult.

>>96104524
Where in the story does it say Sami is gay?

>>96104533
Please refer to,
>>96104372

this is some epstein tier logic

>>96104548
You might as well say the guy in >>96104464 is gay because he's surrounded by men trying to touch him. Anyone can post irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with their claims.

>>96104580
As much as I enjoy you pretending to be a retard, i think I'm done. Bye.

>>96104602
>flees when confronted by logic, has to resort to ad hominem
many such cases

>0 Battles
>In Space Opera set
>Get worse Crew/Saddle instead
I will never forgive Mark and his bunch of retarded monkeys.

>>96104607
I already informed you that gaslighting won't work.

Your assertion that defining characteristics of a subculture being present in the gender expression of an individual are not evidence of that individual's gender expression is psychotic and disingenuous beyond compare, and you are a vile moron for making a claim as stupid and insane as that.

>>96104621
You only need to look at real life to see plenty of LGBT people who despise the other letters in the group, it's fairly common. Try again lol.

>>96104651
That is totally irrelevant to the failure of WotC's worldbuilding and a complete non-sequitur of my rejection of the stupid ass assertion you attempted to make.

Parents are fighting again...

>>96104621
came back mighty quick, eh?

>>96104688
Guess I couldn't leave well enough alone.

>>96104680
do your coming out right now and watch the fireworks

i hate vehicles so much

Surveil X where X is number of artifacts you control then draw 3 cards

>>96104753
>5 mana
Into the trash it goes.

When ~ becomes tapped draw 1 then discard 1

Neat effect.

And a 1 mana 2/2 with reach and basically upside.

>>96104771
They really just had to add the 1 damage cloause and turn it from an interesting piece to generic midrange slop, didn't they?

Just make it 1B or even B without that clause. I hate the trend of overcosting shit just to staple on it being able to enable itself.

>>96104753
translation is missing the Affinity for Artifacts line, right?

>>96103111
Outstanding artwork.

>>9610777
wait did you say...
REACH

*AND*
UPSIDE?!

Oh hey combo piece for the warp niggas

>>96104777
White schizo found dead in a ditch

>>96104771
3 mana for this trash?
No thanks.

>>96104777
>Ahead of the curve body
>Reach
>Upside
Bros. It's over. Webstriker's Revenge is here....

>>96103483
>>96103545
at this point I'm only excited about common cards. pic related could break the format and make blue base affinity great again

>>96104777
>1 mana
>unconditional 2/2
>reach
>artifact
>non-legendary
Is green back? The opponent gets a lander token too but I can't imagine that'll matter much compared to the rest.

>>96104820
>Is green back? The opponent gets a lander token too but I can't imagine that'll matter much compared to the rest.
I can only imagine if you build a deck with this fucking busted ass power crept beyond believe POS, you're going to be building it with getting more out of that lander token than your opponent in mind.

>>96104771
>activate only as a sorcery
I'm pretty sure that kills it, unless there's some sick combo

>>96104797
>wotc when they designed this card with their wilds of eldraine banger Monstrous Rage still being legal

>>96104771
>seems goo-
>only as a sorcery
nvm its mid

>yet another "do thing? do thing again" set
Pretty soon we're going to see decide with a commander, 69 lands/veggies, and 30 doublers

>>96104883
>Create an artifact, then you may sacrifice an artifact
It's so fucking tiresome........

>>96104883
I want viable lander token generators in common so bad

>>96104777
Why yes, I am going to play RG robot aggro, how could you tell?

A free overcosted Healing Salve and a free overcosted Reach Through Mists are one thing.

But Rampant Growth is just a 2-mana spell as a baseline. Lander tokens saccing for 2, not 3, is awfully egregious.

>>96104883
Would be great if the lobster didnt have 2 of toughness

>>96104919
it costs 0 mana to put a rampant growth into my hand
I just draw the fucking rampant growth

if I had to pay 3 mana to get the lander token and 2 more to activate it, good job I paid 5 fucking mana for a ramp spell

>>96104883
>red just gets to land ramp now too
colorwheel in shambles

>>96104777
Green Goblin guide.

>>96104963
They appear to be costing it at 0 mana to tack it onto cards.

Also, mono-red, mono-blue and mono-black all getting largely unconditional pure land ramp lmao. Not white though. White still needs to ask permission!

>>96104524
>>96104533
Thon can't be gay because thon is non-binary......

>>96104984
>Thon can't be gay because thon is non-binary......
What if they want buttsex with only other non-binary people?
Is that a kind of gay or is it something else?

>>96104975
Yeah, white doesn't get conditional ramp. Same as Red. Red's ramp is all conditional here

>>96104965
mono red commanders will become more viable

>>96104975
Rampant growth on turn 2 is way more powerful than rampant growth on turn 3 or 4. So far I think only that one green card can get you that.

>>96104998
>red can do anything as long as it is temporary
Murder but Red
Destroy target creature. At the beginning of the next end step on your next turn, destroy it again.

>>96104975
There is no mono blue or black lander card, what the fuck are you talking about? There's just one colorless draft chaff.

>>96102860
>>96102913
How many standard playable cards are in a set is a pretty good metric on if the set is good or garbage
MKM had an absolute ton of cards see play
DFT had almost zero cards see play
NEO and BLB completely redefined standard when they released
EOE and FIN are both dropping like wet farts


MKM was a trash selling set and FIN sold like hotcakes, but how many cards can you name from both sets that are all over the meta?
>starting town
>opera love song (before mouse nerf)
>vivi
>yuna
>a single chocobo deck
That's about it for the entire set
Meanwhile MKM had
>aftermath analyst, analyze the pollen, archdruid's charm, assassin's trophy, break out, case of the gateway express, cease/desist, cryptic coat, deadly coverup, deduce, delney, fugitive codebreaker, ill-timed explosion, insidious roots, UB kellan, lightning helix, long goodbye, no more lies, not on my watch, novice inspector, no witnesses, outrageous robbery, pick your poison, proft's memory, push/pull, reenact the crime, repulsive mutation, rubblebelt, scene of the crime, shock, gorehound,steamcore, torch the witness, toxin anal, urgent necropsy, vein ripper, voja, warleader's call, worldsoul's rage
>the 5 surveil lands

ALL of which saw play
granted some were short lived, like codebreaker being power crept by mice

Ikoria was a set symbolized by the fascist patriarchy (coppercoats) oppressing sexual deviants (bonders) and it was better because of it.
Space Wars has no such dynamic where one group is held under any one other group, and that's why the progressive signaling doesn't work.

>>96105012
Yeah that's literally how Red kill spells work, by dealing damage, which goes away inbetween turns

>>96104797
Ok, so in paper, how am i gonna remember which one of my identical 4 copies of a creature was cast for its warp cost and which i played normally?

>>96105012
Nah. For removal it just needs to be damage based. Something like
>1RR
>Instant
>Damage from this spell can't be prevented.
>This spell deals X damage to target creature, where X is that creature's toughness.

>>96105036
Counters, tokens, dice, small papers, more game pieces! Everyone loves clutter!

>newfriends don't know that red has always been the ramp color

>>96105036
...the same way you remember which of your identical creatures have summoning sickness and which don't. by having a non-goldfish memory

>>96105036
If they're identical, it doesn't matter which one you warped.

>>96105012
>>96105040
you mean like this?
they literally gave us a red murder in this set on top of giving us a green murder
the green one is better since it kills 3/4 or 4/5 creatures

>>96105064
>the green one is better since it kills 3/4 or 4/5 creatures
And also can kill larger shit in many different circumstances.

>>96105064
>doesn't kill the T1 card draw engine

>>96104524
Why the fuck is a faggot ass they/them on a damn magic card?
>Wizards of the Coast
More like cocksuckers of the most.
Also
>Touching the ball shaped robot instead of the "pussy" cat with a blue and pink planet behind "him".
If that isn't a rainbow "flag" of a "I'M QUEER!" then shocklands are low tier trash, and news flash they ain't.
Whats next, gonna shove whatever the fucks in "his" right hand up "his" ass? Like holy fuck somebody cast some testosteronacadabrah on this intergalactic flamin cum in ass space bitch. 2RW, yeah sounds about right for someone who looks like "he" take two dicks up the ass and then spends the next morning with a burning sensation and the taste of semen. Cuz you know this cocksucka probably sucks any dick he can get his hands on. Only thing legendary about this card is the amount of dicks sucked to get this trash made. That and the subtle racism of "the clinks and clanks of tinkering." on the flavor text of a card with an asian guy on it. Let me guess next your gonna print a black dyke with "took the cooky book from her nook."
Spook not nigger, chink for blondie by the way.

>>96105064
That says power, anon. It couldn't even bolt a hypothetical bird.

>>96105060
Summoning sickness lasts 1 turn. This shit can take half an hour to metter

>>96105073
No 3 mana spell can kill that bitch, she flips on turn 2

>>96105040
Finally my sideboard card can shine!
Also we're post FF now, they don't care about numbers anymore, just have the card deal 1 000 000 damage

>>96105085
Anon, it only affects creatures that were warped in that turn. It's not making you keep track of which creature was warped in on a previous turn.

>>96103111
Cool art for token tribal slop

>>96103483
Remove all the humans, force them to commit to the space theme. Even our heroic they/them leader would be more tolerable as some sort of ayy instead of a disgusting hapa genderspecial.

>>96105085
...Warp literally only works for one turn too.

>>96105081
I have no problem with cocksuckers. Women suck cocks, faggots suck cock, I'm okay with both
these are troons, while some are degenerates who get off on posting videos of fisting themselves in public others are asexual. Most of them aren't even cock hungry, they are straight male incel crossdressers

>>96105094
No it doesn't. Haste is irrelevant but trample can be given to a warped creature that entered 10 turns ago

>>96105118
...no, it can't. A warped creature exiles itself at the end of the turn. Then you can cast it by ITS NORMAL COST. After that point, it is no longer warped.

>>96105118
>a warped creature that entered 10 turns ago
most literate /mtg/ poster

how do you guys even play this game if you can't read what is in the cards

>>96105061
Big brain.

>>96105081
triggered lol

>>96105137
>blinks it

>>96104817
Wish it was colorless ichor, but we can work with blue.

>>96105081
Advanced schizopost, well done

>>96105155
>becomes a new object and thus wasn't cast for its warp cost

>>96105155
...the creature is no longer warped then either, you retard. the same way evoke doesn't trigger again when you blink a creature that's about to be sac'd.

>>96105118
no wonder you guys complain about too much text on cards, truly embarrassing

>>96104250
a black hole has the same mass as the star it used to be
you might as well ask why didn't the sun pull in everyone to their death

>>96105185
>a black hole has the same mass as the star it used to be
And it used to be a star massive enough to break the strong electromagnetic force and collapse itself beyond a state of matter.

MKM > FIN > DFT > EOE

>>96105217
I'd put FIN at the bottom because UB in Standard is a crime against game design, but yeah pretty much.

EOE is an unfathomable turd.

I will buy this
I will not buy Spider-Man.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH PEOPLE THOUGHT THIS SET WAS GOING TO BE GOOD AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAD HOPE FOR THIS SET AAAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

>>96105256
I had hope for this set and it was answered
it's bretty gud
waiting to see how the limited environment ends up tho

>>96105217
>MKM
>top of anything
The set was a fucking turd

>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=71249&f=PREM
107 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=71247&f=PREM
60 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=70894&f=PREM
130 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=70154&f=PREM
98 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=70075&f=PREM
128 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=69859&f=PREM
177 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=69584&f=PREM
78 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=69543&f=PREM
123 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=68297&f=PREM
279 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=68163&f=PREM
92 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=68886&f=PREM
84 players
>https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=68956&f=PREM
66 players

Come back to Premodern, /tg/.
Come back home...

>>96105256
Only the spaceships seem to be shit so far.

>>96105276

Can you actually play Crusade in Premodern or is it subject to the retarded No-no list Wizards shat out a few years ago?

>>96105276
OPEN UP. THE DOCTOR IS IN.
>>96105375
Yes. You can play crusade in premodern. JotC's crusade ban only applies to JotC official formats.

>>96105405
>Set sucks except random one drops are cracked to the damn stratosphere

>>96103832
>this set is 20 times better then FF
20×0 is still 0

>>96105425
Yup. All new MTG expansions are designed entirely for Coomander with a few hyperefficient cards for modern aggro decks.

>>96105400
Based Tog poster!

>>96105425
oh my fucking god, not the "ONE card in your hand of your choice costs ONE MORE COLORLESS to cast"
truly staggeringly powerful

>nerf two OP aggro decks
>ban some self-bounce jank
>ban the one card that made the cancer combo efficient enough to play
>format is now 86% aggro
Nosewater's bans were GENIUS. Now standard is FLOURISHING MORE THAN EVER.

>>96105462
>dimir kaito
>aggro
what kind of retard manages that site

>>96105462
if you consider midrange and tempo decks "aggro" then yeah there's a lot of aggro

>>96105458
It's a 2-power 1cmc creature with upside on top of that effect, anon.

Do not underestimate the power of 1 mana of tempo in formats where everything is cracked turbo omni speed retardo land.

>>96105478
>>96105485
Kaito deck wins in 5-6 turns. It is aggro.
>midrange
The closest thing to midrange in 2025 MTG are control decks.

>>96105478
>what kind of retard manages that site
The one that knows a deck with 28 1-drop creatures and a curve that tops out at 3 mana is an aggro deck.

>>96105503
I guess that because people concede in turn 6 to control, control is aggro now

>>96105462
>UR aggro
>uses banned card as its icon
>look at the results
>it's actually all UR Soul Cauldron

>>96105506
you mean like the first midrange deck ever invented by Uri Peleg in 2007 Worlds that played 23 creatures and not once cast even a single one of them for more then 3 mana?

>>96105503
Grandpa, turn 5-6 is the late game nowadays

>>96105458
It's savannah lion with vigilance for the same cost.
AND then on top of that it still has more.
Maybe it should've gotten flying too. Might as well, it's an angel.

>>96105510
>because people concede in turn 6 to control
The dimir deck can do 20 damage in 6 turns.
>>96105529
And that's why the format is 86% aggro. You just can't viably play control or midrange anymore.

>>96105506
Dimir Aggro doesn't run that many creatures

>>96105538
>you just can't viably play control or midrange anymore.
you say, as DIMIR MIDRANGE is the top deck currently

>>96105542
Most of the decks are running 20+ creatures.

>>96105547
It's Dimir Aggro. Not Midrange. It's not a midrange deck. The last time we had midrange decks was more than a deck ago

>>96105550
The range I was seeing was more like 18-24 creatures

>>96105538
>The dimir deck can do 20 damage in 6 turns
yeah, let all their shit stay on the field and the midrange deck will deal a ton of damage
how surprising

>>96105530
oh my god they powercreeped the card from uh Alpha holy fucking shit
how could they make this 2/1 with upside for W??? it's unbelievable

>>96105538
Quit being obtuse. You know the definitions of midrange and aggro have shifted as the game has sped up.

>>96105577
Kinda like how the turn 3 win decks win on turn 3 only if you let them keep all their stuff on the board but if not it takes them 8-9 turns to win. Doesn't stop them from being aggro.

>>96105562
it's literally a midrange deck, that's what the official name is.
If your category for something hasn't worked in a decade, maybe it's your category that's incorrect

>>96105582
Come on, you can see the power difference between that and Inquisitor

>>96105588
buddy if I let the first Doran Midrange deck keep Doran in the field they can very easily smash me in 6 turns. a single Tarmogoyf can deal me 20 damage in 5 turns. you are just retarded

What is the definition of aggro and midrange?

>>96105583
>the definitions of midrange and aggro have shifted
They haven't. Legacy and modern had turn 2-3 win decks in 2012. The old definitions for aggro/midrange/control stand now as they did then. Standard simply has gotten modern power cards so the only meaningful difference is that there have been faster aggro decks.

>pre-memedern keks getting uppity again
If your format has the concept of a "budget deck" your format is comically expensive and you are just gaslighting naive retards into joining so you can farm them with your strictly superior and more money intensive decks, a 100 "budget" deck is almost always slang for "Spend 100 bucks on a dogshit deck that cannot be upgraded into a real deck" or, in the best case scenario "Spend 100 bucks into a worse version of a good deck so you can get your skull caved in except when you get lucky".

Along with that most of the premodern decks are 250$+ put into worthless cards, and "Muh proxies" isn't a really good argument because most people don't like them, it looks bad, and also most stores will still demand shit like gold bordered cards (even more worthless) as "proxies" or you'll say "just use chinaman proxies" without noting all the disadvantages that has, like getting store banned.

I'd even note that a lot of the actually good decks have shit like x4 Cradle, wastelands and a shitton of your tournaments also demand print specific because once more, it isn't a sanctioned format with hard set rules and said printings are all on the inherent reserved list.

Oh and btw, the average pauper deck is now in the 50 to 80$ range buying at the comically overpriced big name shops like TCGPlayer and Starcity of david with any expensive card being a perenial multi format staple (lotus petal, hydro/pyro variants) most of the time and the only real barrier of entry is skill, because in mtgo you can very easily pay your renting and then buy your deck and keep printing $

Sorry, not sorry if you are going to shill your format, which other than not being very competitive and having one big issue for long term high intensity play (closed format, which is also the inverse for long term low intensity play) isn't super bad, at least be fucking honest Mr. I am so super vvhite and aryan but I'll behave like my own racist caricature of a scheming brown jew

>>96105592
it's not even the best 1 drop with vigilance

>>96105604
Kinda like how the turn 3 win decks win on turn 3 only if you let them keep all their stuff on the board but if not it takes them 8-9 turns to win. Doesn't stop them from being aggro.

>>96105610
trvke

>>96105615
if the first fucking midrange deck ever conceived fills your definition of aggro (dealing 20 over 6 turns) i guess that every deck ever has been aggro then

>>96105217
>MKM
>Over anything
>FIN
>Second place
Found the shitter UBslop enjoyer
What a bunch of retards you are for real-

>>96105610
Who are you replying to again? No one is talking about premodern except like three posters who have made only three. But cool. It's great to know that you're a
>scheming brown jew
who's using premodern to take attention away from the FIRE design slop.

starting to think it's not worth saving wildcards for pioneer since so few people play it.

>>96105625
True midrange cannot do 20 damage over 6 turns. True midrange is intermediate between control and aggro. Aggro tries to win withing 5-6 turns and has the potential to do so just like Dimir Aggro/Tempo does. Control tries to make the game go as long as possible to guarantee they can win the game through some combo or through card advantage in a lot of turns. True midrange is intermediate between the two.

Unfortuantely, there is no true midrange in current day standard. Dimir Aggro, or what's falsely called midrange, plays like a tempo deck and hence is not midrange.

>>96104965
Yeah, they've now said Red is secondary for ramping. Green still does it best.

>>96105711
>Control tries to make the game...through some combo
it's amazing that these are the people trying to tell you what aggro, control and midrange are

>even /a/ is making fun of us now

>>96105711
Turn 1: Birds of Paradise
Turn 2: Doran, the Siege Tower
Turn 3: 7 damage, interaction
Turn 4: 7 damage, interaction
Turn 5: 7 damage, interaction
there, 21 damage by turn 5.

What's this effect called? Curiosity+? It's on a body.

And this sure is... A land.

>>96105752
cool aggro deck, what's your point?

>>96105753
I call them piracy

>>96105765
This is literally the most archetypical midrange deck ever. You do not fucking know what midrange is.

>>96105775
It's doran aggro, not doran midrange. Whatever site you used just miscategorized it

>>96105724
It's amazing how ignorant you are about how control decks generally win if the opponent doesn't concede. For example, before aggro summer, there was a demon excruciator + jace mill combo that popped up in the dimir control deck which hasn't been played very much for a long time for obvious reasons. Aggro is too strong in the current standard which is why it's 86% aggro.
>>96105752
>23 creatures including Tarmogoyf
>wins in five turns
Yup. It's aggro.

>>96105753
Shit, three art variants, and I like every one of them.

>>96105711
>True midrange is intermediate between control and aggro.
literally wrong. a midrange deck is a deck trying to use disruption, mana acceleration, or smaller threats as a bridge to play bigger threats (in this case, Annex, Kaito and Preacher) then just trying to 2-for-1 the opponent every turn until they win. it is perfectly acceptable for a midrange deck to simply curve out and smash you, just as it is perfectly acceptable for it to grind the game out with value pieces. it's not "something inbetween" it's "can be both as needed" retard.

It is sad that the space set turned out shit. I mean, we could all see it coming but people where hopeful because of Tezz (our boy) but they forgot that WotC absolutely hates the character and have no clue about character development.

Well. Now it it time to wait for Spooderman set and the Doom of Lorwyn (yey gay and not racist elves!)(Can't wait for the asian and ebon black elves and kithkins!)

>>96105861
Tezzeret literally won at everything and is currently an unstoppable, invincible god of technology who came out of EoE with exactly what he wanted. how the fuck do they hate him?

>>96105812
>disruption
Feature of control hence my description of true midrange being a hybrid between aggro and control
>mana acceleration,
A feature of aggro. Decks that do this are typically just skipping one early attack to tap a mana creature much like the old elf aggro decks used to do when they were a thing a long time ago. Still no one tried to pretend they weren't aggro.
>or smaller threats as a bridge to play bigger threats
Again, old-school elf aggro.
>Annex, Kaito and Preacher
Preacher serves a similar role to tersa as a "draw engine." Kaito usually comes out after a couple turns of aggro on turn 3 as a ninjutsu and is just another creature part of the army of creatures swinging every turn. By this point, probably 10 damage in total has been done if the opponent hasn't done well with his blockers. Only a couple more turns of aggroing and Dimir Aggro will have won. The Annex deck is probably the only thing close to a midrange deck in the format and possibly the only exception. Even so it is extremely aggressive to the point where it's not really midrange. Unfortunately in this format, we do not have midrange decks. It's all turn 5-6 or fewer turns to win aggro decks.
>then just trying to 2-for-1 the opponent every turn until they win
That's just aggro v. aggro gameplay.
>it's not "something inbetween" it's "can be both as needed"
It is an intermediate between control and aggro. It does not win in 5-6 turns like an aggro deck would while it does not like to go for long games since it cannot do the attrition game as well as a control deck. Hence why it is intermediate between the two.

>>96105872
>Tezzeret literally won at everything and is currently an unstoppable, invincible god of technology who came out of EoE with exactly what he wanted. how the fuck do they hate him?
By ignoring his established character to gain trope points.

>>96105946
What'd they ignore? He's basically as he was the last we saw him when he wasn't under somebody's thumb. Tezz isn't incapable of caring about others, he just cares about himself more than anything.

Aggro: Expend all resources you have as fast as you can to kill the enemy as fast as you can
Control: As your chief priority ry to control the board and preventing your enemy's plays from having impact
Combo: Reach boardstate X; everything else is secondary
Midrange: Control or threaten as needed, always maximizing efficiency and value, and grind out the enemy through these plays until you win
Tempo: Put your enemy on the backfoot through the entire game via hybrid cards that are threats and also answers; ride that state where they try and fail to answer your threats until you win

>>96105960
He doesn't even care about the team as people, he just sees them as useful pawns to his plan. The most he gets to that is approving of Alpharael's desire to live at all costs, which is literally what Tezzeret is all about.

>>96105945
>Preacher serves a similar role to tersa as a "draw engine."
are you fucking retarded. tersa is card selection, not draw.

>>96105983
Yeah. He's at least... Mildly fond of the crew, but moreso in that they're useful to him and amusing. He sort of cared for Jace when Jace was working for him, too, and hell the Planeswalker's Guide shows even now he kinda wants a telepath on staff.

>>96105945
Oh my god, you're retarded.

>>96105965
How many of these archetypes are playable nowadays? And don't dare tell me all of them

>>96105993
>tersa is card selection, not draw.
>discard up to two cards, then draw that many cards.
Here's the draw. Keyword = draw and it triggers all abilities requiring the draw keyword.
>Whenever Tersa Lightshatter attacks, if there are seven or more cards in your graveyard, exile a card at random from your graveyard. You may play that card this turn.
When it has threshold, it is effectively a "draw engine."
>>96106004
If you want to see someone who's really a retard, look in the mirror.

>>96106021
Only aggro and tempo. Combo has been banned and the other archetypes are too slow.

The game has three archetypes.

Aggro - Card efficiency.
Combo - Card quality.
Combo - Card Interactivity.

That is it.
Midrange is not a thing.
Midrange is just bad control.

Maybe "Card synergy" would be better for combo.

Either way. that's it. Three archetypes. Efficiency vs Quality vs Synergy. Everything else is fake.

>>96106033
>Midrang and Tempo don't exist, they can't hurt you
Found the schizo bad player.

>>96106021
>Aggro
Yes, Gruul Delirium is a good example.
>Control
Yes, UW Control or monowhite are good examples.
>Combo
No, though Omniscience was the archetypical combo deck.
>Midrange
Yes, currently the top dog of the format.
>Tempo
No, there aren't many hybrid threat/disruption cards like UB Faeries' Spellstutter Sprite or Vendillon Clique to make it viable. It lives and dies by those.

>>96106060
Tempo is about card efficiency.
It is just aggro with a different shape.

>>96106061
>>Midrange
Not a real archetype.
>>Tempo
Not a real archetype.
>>96106060
>>Midrange and Tempo don't exist
He's right. It's either aggro, control, or combo. There are no other archetypes.

Man, WotC really wants people to die to Nemesis in EOE.

>>96106068
Aggro is about winning with no cards in hand.
Control is about winning with a full hand.
Combo is about winning with your whole deck on your hand.
Midrange is about winning with one more card then your opponent.
Tempo is about winning while your enemy has no cards in hand.

>>96106068
>It's either aggro, control, or combo
Card efficiency, card quality, card synergy. That's the entire game.

>>96102947
Use leyline axe in your memework colossus deck

>>96106064
>>96106068
How can you tell Midrange and Tempo are not real archetypes when literally the best deck in the format right now is a MIDRANGE combo? No, not aggro, no not control and obviously not a combo but a fucking Midrange deck

>>96106082
Hey WotC, I have an idea that would be SO COOL AND LE EPIC!!!!
Hear me out! Seriously! I think it would be the most awesome and epic thing ever printed! Okay... okay! It's.....

ONE
MMMMILLION
DAMAGE

>>96106092
If they were real archetypes then they would have their own categories on top8.
>MIDRANGE combo
Some players like to come up with silly names to try to make themselves sound special when they're just playing an aggro deck.

>>96106105
no i just think mtgtop8 is retarded. every other site uses midrange and tempo

>>96106105
>Some players like to come up with silly names to try to make themselves sound special when they're just playing an aggro deck.
The only reason "midrange" as a concept began is because WotC power crept cards to the point where they filled multiple roles.

You could have a deck that played as both combo and aggro because the cards just do everything.

But that doesn't mean Midrange is a thing. That just means you can put Aggro and Combo together.

>>96106117
If you put aggro and control together it's obviously a new type of deck, you complete retard, because if you try to handle it as though it were aggro or control separately you'll die

>>96106122
>If you put aggro and control together it's obviously a new type of deck,
No.
It's still an Aggro deck and it is still separately a Control deck.
This is just a result of Wizards printing power crept shit that fills both roles. Midrange is not a new archetype, it is just another name for power creep.

BREAKING NEWS: ProsBloom reclassified as an aggro deck because it can deal 20 damage by turn 6

>>96106132
Aggro-combo.

Crombo.

>>96106132
how does this deal 20 damage by turn 6

>>96106160
>put Squandered Resources on the board
>explode all your lands, play Cadaverous Bloom
>explode all your cards, play Curiosity, draw
>repeat until you find a X cost kill spell
>X = 20, win

>>96106082
I didn't realize I would be monkey paw'd this hard when I asked for a FTK in EOE.

>>96106082
oh my god a 9R combo to deal, uh... 10 damage? how fearsome

>>96106208
>oh my god a 9R combo to deal, uh... 10 damage? how fearsome
13 damage! Nemesis has haste you dummy.

>>96106208
Anon...people don't pay retail MV to get artifacts into play in current year (or enchantments, for that matter).

>>96106105
>Nooooo my fake shitty mtgtop8 doesnt have this archetypes therefor THEY DON'T EXIST
What an absolute faggot you are.

>>96106215
that only makes it even worse, because now you need to mill or discard the thing, then reanimate it with white
so, you have another color involved and an additional layer of complexity for a payoff that does not even kill the enemy.

>>96106131
>Midrange is not a new archetype, it is just another name for power creep.
100% truth
>>96106132
No. It's combo. Aggro puts down creatures and attacks or drops burn spells as in the case of red. Personally I don't think turns to win really matters that much. What matters is how the deck is actually played. What's called "midrange" by autists who want to sound special is just slow aggro.
>put down a few creatures
>attack until enemy dead
>throw in some interaction to get creatures out of the way.
Just slow aggro. And that's how """midrange""" decks are built. Something like 18-24 creatures and 14-16 spells like every other aggro deck.

Control runs a lot of instants and sorcs to kill creatures and counter spells. Then win through card advantage and attrition or being able to chip away at the opponent's library or lifetotal over time. Best case scenarios there are 2-6 creatures in there you could use to chump block or win with if the man-lands/mill doesn't work out.


Combo is either solitaire decks, i.e. storm, or a control deck that stalls and draws until it can get out its combo. The existence of combos that win the game, i.e. as in a storm deck to mill out your opponent with a couple of brainfreezes after playing 8-10 eggs. ProsBloom:
>ditch 6/7 cards in hand for 12 mana
>draw 12 and ditch 11 to produce 22 black
>drain life for 20 or whatever other convenient card for whatever format is being played to pump the mana into
Not necessarily aggro or control. Strictly a combo deck.

Friendly reminder you can be a combo deck with an aggro plan B. Greasefang is a combo deck undenialiably and you still have some high damage cards

>>96106233
Your retardation being vehement doesn't make it true. A midrange deck is focused on value rather then pure damage- of fucking course it wants to attack when all the good value cards of the format require you to attack, nigga

>>96106233
>100% truth
Damn right.

If i slap a PW into a creature/removal deck is instantly a Midrange deck?

>deck is partially control, partially aggro
>"we should come up with a word for this kind of deck"
>NOOOOOO YOU CAN'T IT'S NOT A REAL DECK NOOOOOO
incredible levels of retardation, thank you. you go and try to treat Dimir Kaito like aggro and simply remove all their stuff and wait for them to run out. see how that goes.

start your engines is such a shitty mechanic. you can't just have a few start your engines cards you need a fuckton of them to reliably get it to trigger by turn 4-5

>Start your Engines
>Station
Which one is worse? QUICK!!

>>96106284
It is important to keep definitions clear in all things.

Midrange is a fake word. It is called power creep allowing degenerate play patterns. Midrange is not an archetype, it's a symptom of a disease.

>>96106285
Yeah it's a big mechanical faceplant to have a mechanic called "speed" that does nothing but slow you down and gate your cards from working
I maintain that Speed would be fine if it had no limit and cards cared about your Speed value rather then max speed. Speed Demon would be super fun if it was the case

>>96106269
>A midrange deck is focused on value rather then pure damage
Funny thing since the value of the creatures is often based on how much damage they can do in a swing.
>of fucking course it wants to attack
Hence aggro.

>>96106297
Start Your Engines definitely.

Cringe name gets it bonus points. And, as terrible as it is, Station is actually playable in an abstract kind of way.

SYE is legitimately unsalvageable. It demands you have a deck of 30+ SYE cards to get it consistently online, and also demands your opponent to do literally nothing while you get the mechanic going.

It's also a total flavor fail. Racing set has the slowest mechanic ever. Total farce. It might actually be the second worst mechanic of all time, behind the obvious undisputed champion that is Companion.

>>96106298
Magic changes around the time of Lorywn, and this is what enables midrange.
>creatures are inherently the most important element of the game, and so the game should have good creatures that are worth playing competitively
>creatures that cost more than 2 mana are popular and have a lot of cool design space, but they mostly interact poorly with removal spells that tend to cost 2 mana.
>if a creature does something merely by coming into play, now it interacts well with removal.
That is true. It is a good thing, though, that their design became more creature-centric. Games SHOULD take place in the battlefield over the stack.

>>96106297
Battles. At least with Station you can tap the creatures that you don't plan on using to attack. With Battles you basically give your opponents extra life in exchange for whatever the Battle gets you, which is usually a creature or something.

>>96106298
The rock is a deck that existed before you were born anon

>>96106329
>It is a good thing, though,

>>96106335
The core of Battle is essentially "enchantment that can be attacked". Their plans are apparently to just have battles that come up in your side and can be attacked by enemies to be removed

>>96106298
>It's called "Power creep"
You are a fucking retard. Is Midrange and will be always Midrange.

i can't help but notice he's not in this set

anons have already forgotten about his millions

>>96106347
Battles are never coming back. Complete failure of design and gameplay on all fronts.

>>96106372
They're 100% coming back in Avatar.

Why don't UB sets have planeswalker cards

>>96106344
>The rock is a deck that existed before you were born anon
Rack is a combo deck.

>>96106392
The rock, not rack. The rock and his millions. >>96106367 grindy, tough deck that controls the earlygame with efficient removal and then makes large, difficult to handle efficiently plays in the midgame.

>>96103483
you would have to change absolutely everything about it to get it to a good point

>>96106082
Pauper playable?

>>96106409
>tough deck that controls
Gee I wonder what archetype it is.

>>96106329
>Games SHOULD take place in the battlefield over the stack.
MTG is not designed for the battlefield. Not much going on other than choose when to swing, with what, or what to block with. There's no card grid where anything like positioning or any other factors are accounted for. It's either attack, block, or not to or hold something for the stack. Very shallow. Having much more stack interaction is ideal. The game is about being a wizard after all. It's called "Magic: the Gathering" not "Dual creatures: the Summoning"

>>96106436
Well, you're just wrong.

>>96105965
>most famous tempo deck of all time just casts a 3/2 flying on turn 1 and protects it for a few turns
I don't really view tempo as an archetype, more like a game plan. I also don't view it as running hybrid threat and answer cards, but more like getting ahead on the resources curve often by interfering with your opponent's resources.
For example, Delver is an aggro control deck. The pieces of Delver of Secrets, Dragon Rage Channeler, and Murktide Regent are all hyper efficient beaters with evasion and no disruption. The tempo aspect comes from much higher card quality and free counterspells.
Now if we look at something like old Trinity decks, we can see tempo control. Use green mana elves to slam down Trinisphere followed by Plow Under, completely destabilizing your opponent's mana base and draws. Trinity was undoubtedly a tempo deck but didn't run combination beater and disruption cards
In chess, tempo is when you gain an advantage while forcing your opponent to spend their turn. Normally the advantage is having to move a higher priority piece out of the way. For example, when a pawn attacks piece, the owner of that pawn gains a tempo as its bad to trade pieces for pawns. The owner of the piece must spend a move extracting the piece, while the owner of the pawn claimed more board space by moving the pawn forward. You are correct that in Magic terms this would be running a threat that is also an answer, but there are other ways of gaining tempo. Putting your opponent in check so they must respond to your threat or lose is similar to what Delver does, by presenting nonstop threats that your opponent must answer or lose. Using free to cast cards by exiling from your hand is similar to using a gambit (giving up pawns usually to secure new advantages). Putting your opponent in gay baby jail with Trinisphere and Plow Under gains tempo because your opponent can only take moves that do nothing or are bad for them (the latter known in chess as zugzwang)

>>96106461
No he is right.

the reality is taht true midrange has never been tried

>>96106430
It controls the earlygame while playingnhard to answer threats and accumulating value and grinding the enemy out. It's clearly not entirely a control deck (who would not do the latter) nor an aggro deck (who does only the latter), but rather something inbetween.

>>96106468
>he is
*I am

>>96106465
>Delver is an aggro control deck
Don't forget about the pauper version where it's even more aggressive thanks to the terrors.

>>96106465
>I don't really view tempo as an archetype, more like a game plan
That's pretty much the fact of the matter.
Tempo is just a flavor of aggro.

>>96106479
>It controls the earlygame while playingnhard to answer threats and accumulating value and grinding the enemy out. It's clearly not entirely a control deck
MTG has three archetypes.

Aggro, which values card efficiency.
Control, which values card quality.
Combo, which values card synergy.

It is a control deck.

>the universe within set feels more universe beyond than the universe beyond set

>>96106496
>One day, some guy mentioned "Why don't we do a space set?"
>And everybody clapped!
>>>And then we actually did it.

Retards. The lot of them.

>>96106490
If you care about two of these, then it's a different deck then just caring about one

>>96106506
>If you care about two of these, then it's a different deck then just caring about one
Nope.

>>96106496
UB seems more like a cashgrab for /a/-cucks, /co/-cucks, and /tv/-cucks who normally wouldn't play the game and who would probably just jump into coomander anyways because it became more socially acceptable.

>>96106496
yeah this really felt like Classic Magic

>>96106515

>>96106534
yeah i clearly remember that time Urza expained to Xantcha in a tooltip that she needed to grind XP to unlock Firaga so she went and fought a blitzball match againat Braids. really hit my nostalgia there.

>>96106541
now shakespeare quotes. thats the stuff of legends.

>>96106490
Can you please explain the difference between card efficiency and card quality?
If anything I view aggro as leaning on card quality, with little draw but relying on a strong 6 or 7 and the additional handful of draws throughout the game. I view control as leaning on card quantity, while still running powerful individual cards like Counterspell but relying on cards that draw 2 or more to overwhelm the opponent later in the game with a clear card quantity advantage.

>>96106566
>Can you please explain the difference between card efficiency and card quality?
Efficiency is ability to kill someone per mana spent.
Quality is ability to guarantee an inevitable victory per mana spent.

>>96106584
...that doesn't mean anything. These two aren't different things. The focus of Control is card advantage, it wants to have more answers then you have threats. In fact it will often play oversized answers in exchange for additional possibilities, like modal cards.

BEHOLD.
THE FUTURE!

>>96106614
>...that doesn't mean anything. These two aren't different things.
They are. Learn to language comprehension.

>>96106618
nice card
sounds funny. both of these aren't really good but might be decent if you can tutor them out

>>96106629
how do you qualify "an inevitable victory" per mana spent? for aggro victory comes when your health is brought at 0, so Lava Spike is a control card now because it brings you closer to winning at a fast rate?

>>96106654
You ask too many questions that you can answer yourself with two seconds of thinking.

>>96106654
>so Lava Spike is a control card now because it brings you closer to winning at a fast rate?
This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted in /mtg/.

>>96106659
"closer to victory per mana spent" is a nonsensical statement. Control doesn't evaluate most of its cards in how they its further own victory, it wants to hold off the other players' own. It wants answers, not threats, and it can use even an 1/1 fish token to close the game if needed.

>>96106659
no, he's right, you're an idiot and your words aren't even coherent sentences
>Quality is ability to guarantee an inevitable victory per mana spent.
when does a card have more "inevitable victory" per mana than another card?
it's an uncountable concept
comparing one inevitable victory to another inevitable victory doesn't make sense
this is so stupid it can't even be called wrong

>>96106711
>"closer to victory per mana spent" is a nonsensical statement.
Well good thing I didn't make that statement then you fucking retard.

The spacecraft borderless frames look so awful. Just give them the normal artifact frame.

>>96106717
>when does a card have more "inevitable victory" per mana than another card?
Think.
Use your brain. Take your brain, and apply it. A single time. Go on. Get your Agency Outfitter
to find your Thinking Cap and put it on.

>>96106717
>when does a card have more "inevitable victory" per mana than another card?
Man can't tell the difference between Goblin Guide and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria.
Incredible.

>>96106725
>Quality is ability to guarantee an inevitable victory per mana spent
how do you calculate this, you dumbass?

>>96106759
>how do you calculate this, you dumbass?
With your brain, moron.
By playing the cards and seeing the results of you playing the cards, idiot.

>>96106758
so control is just "play the good cards and not the bad cards" then? i guess every noncombo deck is control now

>>96106771
so aggro DOESN'T want to play good cards that guarantee victory, retard?

>he's still here
>he's still unable to explain why he thinks anything
kwab

>>96106774
>so control is just "play the good cards and not the bad cards" then?
No. Try agian.

>>96106823
You not being able to understand the explanation is not my concern.
Your low IQ is a you problem. I have no need to pander to it.

>>96106827
You clearly haven't given any definition to card quality that makes it different from card efficiency.

>>96106788
>so aggro DOESN'T want to play good cards that guarantee victory, retard?
You being under a geas that demands you believe "Good" has only a single, generic, one-size fits all definition is not a problem I can help you with.
Seek the sorcerer who put you under this spell, and beg forgiveness.

>>96106870
>You clearly haven't given any definition to card quality that makes it different from card efficiency.
I did,
It's right here.
>>96106584
You not being too stupid to parse these statements thoroughly enough to comprehend their differences is a you problem.

>Aggro
>Tempo
>Midrange
>Control
>Combo
This is the undeniable scale.

>>96106876
retard, just admit your definition is bad and amounts to "aggro plays cards that are good for aggro and control plays cards that are good for control" instead of any real thought on what makes each each

>>96106901
>Aggro
>Control
>Combo
FTFY

>>96106894
Define "inevitable victory" and explain how Lava Spike does not guarantee an inevitable victory by dealing damage to my opponent (they are now closer to losing the game)

>>96106905
>retard, just admit your definition is bad and amounts to "aggro plays cards that are good for aggro and control plays cards that are good for control" instead of any real thought on what makes each each
No, because that is not the case.
The definitions I gave are clear statements that parse differently when critically assessed. You are just flailing in ignorance and impotent rage at your own stupidity, over not being able to parse said statements adequately.

>>96106496
I KNOW THIS FEEL

>>96106912
>Define "inevitable victory"
Anon, its two words. They aren't even difficult words, they're like 3rd or 4th grade maybe.
Use. Your brain. Read the words. Sound them out slowly if you have to.
in e vi ta ble
vic to ry

Then you can go to a dictionary and look them up if you still don't understand them, and need the extra help.

>>96106916
again, define "ability to guarantee an inevitable victory" and explain how this is measured in a card and how does Lava Spike not possess great ability to guarantee an inevitable victory

>>96106926
>again, define "ability to guarantee an inevitable victory"
The ability.
To guarantee.
Inevitable victory.

It is six grade school level words.
If you can not parse this statement, you are hopeless.

>>96106934
How does aggro not want this quality? How does Burn not fit this, even if no control deck plays burn spells?

>>96106909
The scale for retards is not a fix anon.

cats

>>96106837
Do you hear yourself? You sound like such a faggot when you talk.

>>96104777
The strongest green creature is an artifact.

I gotta agree with this
>>96106909
and disagree with this
>>96106901

>>96106968
I would fuck her, if you know what I mean.

>>96106920
>in e vi ta ble
holy esl

>>96106977
what did anon mean by this?

>>96106960
My god, you can not be this stupid.

I guess I have to explain to you how to parse statements. Great, you're a fucking toddler who can't read. I'll hold your hand, little baby, don't worry!

Two statements were made. They were presented as contrasting statements, meaning each negates the other.

The first statement is in regards to "Aggro", which states that Aggro values the ability to kill.
The second was in regards to "Control", which states that control values inevitable victory.

As these were contrasting statements, this implies that aggro holds lesser regard for inevitability. Thus, it values fragile but efficient (fast, in case that word is too big for you) means to secure wins.
And, inversely, that means control does not value what aggro values. Which means the statement about what control values implies something more secure and, as was stated, inevitable. Reliable, robust. Choose your synonym.

By looking at sentences in context and using your critical thinking skills, you too will be able to read the written word and understand what it is trying to say. It's an incredible skill. You really should practice it.

i gotta agree with this
>>96106901
disagree with this
>>96106909
and ignore this
>>96106975

>>96106977
I keep rereading this, ans I cant pick up whaf youre putting down, mate.

So what the consensus seems to be is:
>tempo and midrange are fake archetypes
>aggro, control, and combo are the only real archetypes

>>96107013
Factual.
Aggro, control and combo are archetypes.
Tempo is a flavor of aggro. A sub-archetype, if you want to be flowery.
Midrange is just power creep by a different name.

>>96107013
The consensus? Sounds more like the Schizophrenia

>>96106993
I am not that anon but I will say the following

Burn decks are known for their inevitability.
Control decks sometimes feature burn as a win condition

The other anon is upset because your definitions don't apply to things we know about deck building and archetypes.

The other anon is also upset because you keep calling control decks inevitable but you are unable to say what makes them inevitable (which is gaining access to more resources than the opponent, you know, *card quantity*). Repeating the word inevitable and then saying the definition is elementary doesn't answer what that anon is asking, which is "what makes a card inevitable?"

If you make multiple posts and the other person is disagreeing with definitions, there is always the possibility of your ineptitude in explaining or your misuses of terms. You should consider this as a possibility instead of leaping to a self-evidently proficient reader being illiterate.

Its a triangle. Aggro, Control and Combo. With the other three types the points between them.
Aggro + Control = Tempo
Control + Combo = Midrange
Combo + Aggro = ???

>>96106993
So yeah, like i said, your explanation amounts to
>aggro likes aggro cards
>control likes control cards
and thus means fucking nothing.

>>96107086
You resort to feigning stupidity and incredulity, and that is sad.

>>96106977
can you elaborate?

>>96107082
Why are you just making this shit up and even want to add another unnecesary term?

>>96107079
>which is "what makes a card inevitable?"
This is a question any MTG player would be able to answer with minimal cognitive effort.

>>96107013
Combo is not an archetype, it's a win condition

>>96107117
Good point.
Just aggro and control then. Makes sense to me.

>>96107100
You should be able to answer this question then

>>96107097
Its true. Its a shit playpattern but its there.
>Tibalt Trickery in Pio
>Legacy Spy
Hell its like YGO. Either you have the combo or you lose.

People who refuses to acknowledge Midrange and Tempo as archetypes are really clueless about this game right?

>>96106985
>>96107012
>>96107096
You know, have sex with her.

>>96107137
I refuse to humor midwits feigning ignorance to mask their inability to communicate.

>>96106977
Such a cryptic statement...
Could it be true?

Aggro and Midrange are fake archetypes.

Let's say we're going tall to get a turn 3 win like with hero being called aggro. Then compare it to going tall with eldrazi ramp. The only qualitative difference in that case is when it happens. Turn 6-8 is just a slower version of hero. Not much of a difference in terms of gameplay other than speed. Best case scenario if we use aggro v. midrange, midrange is just slower aggro.

Similarly the classic goblin lackey deck goes wide to put out a siege-gang on turn 2 with the swing to then try to win in 4 turns. Whereas the slower token spam strats have to take 6-8 turns. Similar strat. One just takes 4 turns to win and the other 6-8 turns. If the latter is midrange and the former is aggro then midrange is just a slower aggro.

Nonetheless the play strategy is to get a creature out in play and attack with it to win using spells to either protect that creature or get threats out of the way so you can win. Same strategy in both cases. Only meaningful difference is when it happens. One is just "slower" than the other.

>b-but quality v. efficiency
Okay. Dark ritual > bog imp > discard big giant creature > exhume/reanimate. You can win 3-4 turns with that yet the big giant creature is very high quality so it doesn't make sense. Same strategy for win: get big creature into play and attack a few times. Everything else is there to protect it, clear the way, or back-up plans.
>b-but reanimator is COOMBO
After the reanimator is gone, the gameplan after that is virtually identical to aggro/slow-aggro in the go tall strat. But it's faster than midrange so if we ignore the way to get the creature in (reanimator instead of ramp) it's qualitatively the same as eldrazi ramp (use some cards to get a big creature to win in play as early as possible). So why even make these arbitrary distinctions? But because it wins turn 3-4 it's not midrange, it's aggro or combo?

>>96106993
>I'm not retarded they just don't understand
kek we read you loud and clear buddy

>>96107191
>So why even make these arbitrary distinctions
For what reason do you assert the distinctions are arbitrary?

>>96107191
>This much text just to say stupid shit
You need help.

>>96107100
I know the answer and while the other anons aren't right they are 10x closer than you.

Anyway, you can shrink shit.

>>96107165
in the ASS?

that's a really, really involved troll
are you still a winner if you spend so much effort?
surely at some point pretending to be confidently retarded is just not worth the time investment

>>96107346
>target not restricted to just creatures one player controls
what? wotc still does that?

>>96107346
>flavor text and image are about miniaturizing a friendly creature as a preparatory step
>card effect lets you forcefully shrink enemies in the middle of an attack
>also it makes you very slightly stronger for no reason
talk about rule and thematic mismatch

>>96107435
I mean, you can use it to shrink your own thing to make it unblockable, but weaker. Or use it to shrink your foe's things. It's hard to convey both effects in a single piece of art.

>>96107463
>you can use it to shrink your own thing to make it unblockable
yeah, that would be a fun mental image if that was all it could do
but the ability to do it to enemies implies something like a shrink ray or baleful polymorph
the depicted gentle magic hand just doesn't look like an offensive tool

The only archetypes are
>creature tapping
>burn
>mill
>JotC win condition card
Prove me wrong /tg/.
>protip: you can't.

>>96107346
love cards that makes things into 1/1s

>>96107557
Vigilance tribal.

>>96107561
You like 1/1's eh?

>>96107599
Just the tapping creature archetype without the tapping part.

>>96105425
I agree it's cracked.

Do you think it feels as shit as getting Thoughtseized on T1? I feel like it's really close to that feeling because this thing is going to remove like 2-4 of your life and some fraction of the time the card exiled becomes too expensive to play on time costing you the game.

I just don't get the git probe ban. It's just peak with an alternate cost and that's not banned. Hell you could run Urza's glasses too.

>>96105276
Hi ritual poster I played at the 60 player event!

Not sure what to think of this. Probably too expensive to see any real play but hey.

>>96107663
It's Peek but you can cast it for free. Of fucking course it's banned.

>>96107663
the alternate cost is 0

>>96107746
-2 life is not zero

>>96107756
your bait is worse than the "midrange isn't real" one

>>96107756
you start with 20 life. you start with 0 mana.
calculate which one is worth more.

>>96107756
it might as well be. 2 life for a deck that's 1 card shorter, a storm/prowess trigger, hand information and a sorcery card in the grave? sign me the ruck up

>>96107772
>>96107773
>>96107788
if losing 2 life is so free then why do burn decks run shock? Why is bolt good if 2/3 of it is free?

>>96107772
>>96107773
>>96107788
But they printed the anti-git-probe card in the same set. Banning git probe is absurd

>>96107808
>>96107814
which bait is better?

>>96107821
The one you responded to

Starcage lockdown + mycosynth lattice exiles all lands

>>96107845
we did it gang, we broke mycosynth lattice

>>96107845
with a 9 mana 2 card combo in modern you can just win the game instead

>>96107692
>doesn't even grant trample like craterhoof
damn that's pretty bad

>>96107845
>>96107857
>>96107867
lattice is banned in modern because of k4rn

>>96107692
>green
>7 mana
>6/6
Embarrassing

>>96107887
>LEGACY 9 mana 2 card combo
you can win g1 g2 g3 with just that

>>96107692
Cute top end for limited but there's way better big boys to cheat out in constructed

>>96107808
"shock, but it reveals your hand" would be unplayable garbage
shock is often teetering at the edge of playability

>>96107899
>>96107899
>>96107899

Has this one been done before?

Newbie here
Can cards from packaged commander decks be used in normal magic? and if not how can I tell them apart from the normal cards?
I bought a final fantasy themed box because it promised all thematic and cool cards from one FF game but apparently it's not meant for 1 on 1 magic and I just want to play with my friend who is also new.

>>96103111
WE ARE MY SPACE VAMPIRES?!?!