I think we all know some of you actually do make or sell traditional games for a living. Share some stories about it. Any of you work for Games Workshop or WotC straight up in particular?

Go ask Something Awful instead

>>96118503 (OP)
I'm working as an artist on couple of projects. I'm friends with a team that has a finished tabletop game that failed because it turns out that people do not buy that shit. The customer base is extremely overrated and any new publisher with a new product will most likely fail and by fail I mean sell barely thousand copies. The game was made by a team od 8 guys. All of them play various tabletopgames from their childhood and the art and graphic design was excellent. People just won't buy your game no matter how good it is unless you have a brand recognition.

>>96118503 (OP)
https://archive.is/2024.01.25-152131/https://medium.com/@DrWeisman/the-worst-people-you-have-never-met-or-what-i-learned-during-a-four-year-academic-study-of-online-7da8b9065643#selection-207.0-207.146
This article sums up my experience with the scene. It’s fucking shit. I returned to my normal day job.

>>96118838
Did you somehow not realise that a bunch of unknowns making a new product in a niche field were going to struggle to find customers? How many of your team of 8 knew anything about marketing?

>>96118967
The game was consistently marketed for 3 years and they only needed 20k USD to print and distribute the first batch and couldn't even pass 5000$ on three separate kickstarters. Turns out all the review tubers, game sites, hang-out places, gamestores, conventions - every single one of them lied about the buying potential. Everywhere they pushed their game, the "buying" customer compared to the "interested" customer was like 0.2%. The field is dead.

>>96118854
I have finished reading that article and my day just got better. God it feels good to be living in the Balkans and not surrounded by mentally ill, butchered and brainwashed profligates.

>>96118503 (OP)
Oh look, another lazy piece of shit YouTuber farming for content because he's too lazy to work a real job or actually make his own content.

>>96119330
seconding this
balkans are awesome

>>96118505
SA is even deader than /tg/.

>>96119056
>three kickstarters
>less than $5k total
This is either a marketing problem or the game is so obviously horseshit that it's repellent.

>>96118854
The problem was being involved in the "scene" rather than just with specific people you like and trust. What blindsided that leftoid bitch and so many people besides her is that sharing some broad categorical label does not make a person good, kind, capable, or even sane.

>>96118838
What game? Why in the world would they print without pdf sales to gauge real sales potential? Nerds are stingy and neophobic.

>>96119823
Aight then what is your experience?

>>96119887
>What blindsided that leftoid bitch and so many people besides her is that sharing some broad categorical label does not make a person good, kind, capable, or even sane.
What blindsided her was that she thought and still thinks she is on the right side of history
>>96119887
>What game?
It's this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm4slRrnauw&

Worked at Privateer Press for a few years and then worked at Steamforged

>>96118854

>>96119964
I have a friend who backed the steamforged dark souls game 'cause one of his mates worked there.
I'd love to hear any stories of WHY steamforged is so badly managed.

>>96118503 (OP)
Unless you are an an employee for GW, you most likely do not. Almost everyone has a day job, and most projects lose money.

>>96119889
My experience is that things that are even vaguely interesting typically get a few people to back them. If an actual marketing campaign to raise awareness of a thing occurred, they typically hit their goal in less than 24 hours. The issue with most projects is not securing funding but actually delivering on promises.

Getting almost zero engagement whatsoever means it's either a hyper-niche project nobody is interested in, the thing is throwing up more red flags than the CCP, or the project stayed unknown because the people in charge of talking about it weren't talking about it.

>>96118854
I wondered if the author was going to get into grognards.txt goons, and sure enough they'd done their homework there.

>>96118854
I wonder if the board and card game side of the game design and making has the same issue with mentally ill gay retards engaging in petty Machiavellian plotting.

>>96118854
The thing that amazes me about this story is that all the worst systems, ideas, and E-celebs that /tg/ despises get actively name checked in an article written by a woman who would probably sign off on anyone here being sent to a labor camp for wrongthink, given the power and opportunity.

>>96120248
Emotionally stunted reprobates recognize their own, no matter how much they try to hide it

>>96118854
I'm just wondering how long until Ettin or one of the other goons and losers named in this article notices this topic and calls for backup to accuse you of being Zak and cry on rizon for a mod to kill the thread.

>>96120306
Well, the article is from a year and a half ago and was apparently taken down very shortly after being posted, so I suspect its already been hashed out to death by that lot.

>>96119889
What game?

>>96118503 (OP)
Closest I've done is free plastering and feedback for a dude's free system. I enjoyed playing, he seemed to appreciate what our group told him about exploits we found. Very boring story where everyone wins.
>>96118854
Times like these I'm glad I border on schizoid. Socialization beyond the superficial is for the birds.

>>96118854
Jesus fucking Christ.
These creatures really do have mental issues.

>>96120248
>shitty people exist
>but i am not one of them because of my identity politics!
Do you not get the irony of your response, in which you mindlessly accused her of wanting to send you to the gulags? I mean damn, my guy. Just a baby step inching towards self-reflection wouldn't kill you.

>>96120993
It's honestly kinda hilarious to watch when you're not in the middle of it.

>>96118854
You've forgotten about the audio to support the content of the article:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GJAJNbF2Tg

>>96118854
>>96121767
Jesus fucking CHRIST, is anyone in this scene mentally healthy?

>>96120248
To be honest most of you guys would benefit from being sent to a workcamp, you guys need to get more time outside and face real problems.

>>96125278
I was thinking...is this just a perfect simulation of a Dark Elf society?

>>96118854
What a fascinating read, anon! Thanks!

>>96125350
go bitch about it on troonsky lol

>>96126382
Well no, because the women are ugly.

>>96118854
Wow, it's almost like leftists are, to the man, self absorbed narcissists that think everything should belong to them.

>>96129665
The osr and ttrpg industry is poisoned. They’re rats fighting over scraps while giants like WoTC are sharting rainbow garbage in the customers’ faces.

>>96118503 (OP)
Single bump for visibility. Fuck the psychos.

>>96120248
In the author's defense, she seems like the kind to be called a TERF because she didn't immediately validate some insane troon's version of the world, despite actively validating that the troon is a woman.
I would be extremely surprised if the author was not constantly harrassed online herself.

>>96120958
>Socialization beyond the superficial is for the birds.
Any "scene" where there is a large portion of troonery is guaranteed to either have already gone completely insane or will soon. They're mentally ill and drag any culture they're allowed to exist in down to their level. Its just how they are.
If there is any takeaway from this its that trying to publish and work on any TTRPG product is best done with a private handle and no public presence. Publish your shit and never touch Social Media beyond bland corporate marketing.

>>96141296
Pretty obviously she was, despite irrefutable evidence and a thorough list of receipts. Can't muster much sympathy. These kind eating their own is better than modern HBO.

>>96129665
If you weren't just as bad as them you wouldn't have made that post.

>>96129609
because the "women" are men

>>96141528
god i love when i get to post this

>>96141538
Of course you do. You're a subhuman driven by spite. Put pronouns in your bio and you're indistinguishable from them.

>>96141581
and you're either a terminally 4chan-brained neckbeard who thinks going LE BOTH SIDES makes him seem intelligent or a disingenuous leftist maliciously LARPing as one

>>96141318
Can confirm that not being terminally online is the preventive measure against faggotry.
>>96141528
Return to Christ, faggot.

>>96141581
Why would I use pronouns in my bio? I know what I am. Those incapable of identifying my sex based on my name alone should be shot.

>>96141649
Ma'am, calm down. Some people don't have the cultural understanding on why Jane is feminine, and James is masculine.

>>96141528
>pointing out narcissism actually means you're a narcissist as well!
This sounds exactly like something a narcissist would say when called out on their behavior.

>>96141948
A damn shame movie theaters are a dying industry, you'd make a killing as the projector.

>>96120163
You're being extremely vague. Can you give usw some details on some games you've tried to market?

>>96129665
The only reason anons don't act the exact same is the anonimity. Most on this mongolian basket weaving forum have no claim to being an inch less mentally ill

>>96118854
>after several months studying incel culture online I decided I needed a break to do something less depressing, something with lower stakes — or at least a lower chance of being stalked and murdered in my bed
Yeah not reading 50,000 words by a victim-mentality fantasist sorry anon.

>>96145369
This. Put money and a professional reputation on the line and see how quickly that changes.

>>96145685
I feel the fact they do have so much money and reputation invested and still choose to act like gossipy high school mean girls with their own colleagues is personally appalling, but maybe I just don't get the appeal to begin with.

>>96145999
>so much money
They don't. They're fighting over scraps to make less than minimum wage. That's why it's so petty and vicious, much like the zero-sum attention economy you see in social media.

>>96146030
But clearly its possible to not be the industry equivalent of catty bitches, since the whole reason the guy in the article was targeted was because he was trying to not do that.
Its not like the industry immediately changes your brain to be into gossip and ruining people's lives. Its the intersection of being already prone to doing shit like this, being terminally online, and fighting for scraps of attention.
Obviously the situation in the indie scene with so many authors doing stuff like this would make it almost impossible not to engage with it on some level, but it still doesn't mean that a theoretical alternate indie scene HAS to devolve into this if we were to start again. Leftists attacking each other for not being extreme enough, or making shit up about each other using that as ammo is not an inherent part of writing indie RPG books.

>>96147090
>since the whole reason the guy in the article was targeted was because he was trying to not do that.
No, Zak was a catty bitch in his own right.

>>96147121
I don't follow any of these people, and I generally hate e-drama, all I know is whats in the article, and according to it, Zack's greatest sin was telling people to verify whether someone actually did the thing you are condemning them for, in a bit of a rude way.

I've seen this thread with this one random study maybe half a dozen times here ofver the last couple of years.
You can't just rehash the same story again and again about your inability to market your product.
Assuming this ins't a rehash of someone else's story.

>>96118854
Article begins
>self published paper with 0 peer review as credentials
>Queer
>Huehue assault warnings weapons
>Can't even pass with filters on
>(((weisman)))
Tranny doing what troon's do second best, screeching and shitting themselves online about delusions of being relevant enough to be bullied.
What they do best is just'ing themselves then 41%ing
This retarded anon will never be a real woman

>>96118838
>>96119056
Anon won't even give the name because it fears being laughed at for how retarded their not!slop project was
>>96119823
This is implying the average kicktard doesn't throw money at whatever is the latest feel for it award factory

>>96119929
I understand I'm late here, but that game is just mechanical noise. It's an illegible pile lf cards and zones that even if I personally was really interested in, I'd never find another person who'd let me explain it to them. Maybe the writing is great, but no one is gonna read it.

I'm really sorry so many people lied about buying that, but this isn't indicative that tabletop is dead. Its just oversaturated with garbage like this that asks multiple people to digest a lot of complicated rules, and no one has time for that. It's indistinguishable from the game on the shelf next to it.

>>96147121
>>96147164
>>96148033
The Zak haters are here I see. Is it hard being such insufferable cunts?

>>96147150
If there is one thing these people can’t stand the most it’s accountability. They all want to be cry bullies screaming and wailing that they’re victims. It has nothing to do with the facts all women are saints and all men pieces of shit. He was a straight white make holding them accountable, the writer would never admit it but that’s exactly what made him a target. It’s a sad state of affairs for the ttrpg community and one that’s toxic, actively driving people out of wanting anything to do with the industry.

>>96118838
It's cause there's a new Kickstarter table top game coming out every month or so, it's an absolutely flooded market, and people don't wanna spend money on a new game that might not have any other players like your friends game, how many of those thousand buyers are gonna be able to find someone else to play against? You cant blame the potential customers for not wanting to risk buying a product that's just gonna sit in their wardrobe gathering dust cause no one else knows it even exists

>>96145369
If that helps you sleep at night, loony troon.

>>96119056
If they couldn't even raise 5 grand then their marketing was dog shit

>>96121126
>>96141528
>>96145369
Midwit

>>96148720
>You cant blame the potential customers for not wanting to risk buying a product that's just gonna sit in their wardrobe gathering dust
This ain't the 80s. You have youtube reviewers, you have customer reviews, hell, every normal company showcases how their games works and most devs even have some kind of instant response apps or discord servers where they can answer your questions fast and precise. If a dev does all of this and the interested customer ain't buying then either it's A) expensive or B) the field is dead.
>>96148297
>with garbage like this that asks multiple people to digest a lot of complicated rules
Then you are obviously not the target audience and that is fine. I wouldn't play that game too but there is obviously a market for that (the team who is behind that game being into that kind of stuff and buy and explore those kind of games) and they did research it.

>>96120534
>>96148113
You two don't have a big attention span, do you? I have a feeling you won't like the game >>96119929

>>96148811
Breakdown to us your marketing strategy then.

>>96149906
Do what Hollywood does, hire a horde of Indians for cheap to relentlessly shill it (using sock accounts ofcourse because no one will listen to an Indian knowingly) all over Reddit, FB, YouTube comments section, forums, discord and here

>>96149906
>You have youtube reviewers,
mortal kin in yt yelds 1(one) video of a reviewer, were does the reviewers plural happens?
>every normal company showcases how their games works
Publisher's channel has 10 videos, 6 are music for a boardgame, 2 are teasers one of which didn't even break 100 views.
Like some anon said above, if there even was someone supposed to talk about this stillborn project he stayed silent. Only 600 stumbled on the trailer, basically 0 reach.
The only advertiser that can be found is the single video you offered when asked, it links to a Kickstarter with 89 backers, that's a 4% conversion rate assuming it was the only thing you did; which you imply it's not, it gets worse if true.
You spent no effort or money that can be seen but got results that'd barely satisfy some dudes doing indiscriminate, target every demographic, piss money out the window type advertising.
You have no say on what the industry is like, you did (?) for a company that didn't bother to tell its costumer base it exists. Your local healing crystal shaman probably has better reach and you can't tell me that's a bigger costumer base than not gloomhaven with 6 gorrilion tokens

>>96150425
Bro.
You didn't have to murder the guy like that.
Or maybe you did, because anything less might not get through to him.
Either way, amazing post.

>>96149906
The real answer is to make a game that can has better adaptability so it scales more realistically with the demographics you have access to.
By spreading yourselves too thin for a vague 'mass marketability' ploy and getting disheartened at your lackluster numbers you should instead properly cater to your base and make a heartening standalone piece of art you can build from, on that tightrope as a fanatic of your own game until you get that momentum and attempting not to completely overextend and bankruptcy, you need friends dawg, that much is clear.
When one of my favorite artists built his empire he started making porn by commission, he did it smart and catered only to the clientele that would steer his reach in the direction he really wanted to go and built his base with consistent and high effort work.
he made graphic novels of his very specialized focus, silk screens, and generally engages in whatever new thing he feel is going to give him the skills he wants pulling from everywhere, to build himself. The audience he needs to take his next steps formed naturally in response to passion, he now presses his own books and creates quality work on his terms. If he thinks he isn't successful it's just because is that much more deserving of it.

If half of the games that attempt to go mass market worked their way up to that level gradually there would be better quality pie for everyone, but no, we have trash pie from trash companies and no one cares about any of it anymore because no one wants to play with garbage and they can't tell the difference.

>>96118503 (OP)
I worked in a game store and had to quit because I was developing a coke addiction

>>96118854
I gave it. Fags interviewing retards. Trashman save me

>>96118854
>I am done interacting with a scene that vindicates certain harm when done in a self-perceived righteousness but condemns harm that they consider immoral.”
>-Game designer Maria Fanning’s farewell message to the RPG industry, January 2021
>This is an article I found I had to write in the middle of my research for an academic study, and it is the kind of article where you need to state your credentials up front. I have a research-based degree from Oxford University’s Centre for Evidence-Based Social Intervention, I got my MSW at Smith College School for Social Work, and I have a doctorate from the University of Birmingham in the department of Social Work, Sociology, and Criminology. You can look up the papers I have published online. For the purposes of this article, the category “credentials” also unfortunately needs to include the fact that I am a queer woman and a multiple-assault survivor. So trigger warning.
This author sounds like a faggot and so do you.

>>96118854
>https://archive.is/2024.01.25-152131/https://medium.com/@DrWeisman/the-worst-people-you-have-never-met-or-what-i-learned-during-a-four-year-academic-study-of-online-7da8b9065643#selection-207.0-207.146
>multiple-assault survivor
How come the ugliest people you'll ever see all claim this kind of stuff?

>>96151369
>Multiple-assault survivor
I'm calling bullshit unless he's talking about the jeet and paki illegals that would hump a goat if it was unattended, and even then he deserves it for looking like the blob and trying to pretend to be feminine

>>96119929
>discount K6BD board game
Why would you think this was going to sell? Genuinely? This isn't even an RPG.

>>96150249
>Do what hollywood does
>on used car budget
>>96150425
All of what you said is true but a lot of the promo stuff and videos were taken down to be later reuploaded with better art, promo, better presentation, etc + The guys decided to shelf the project and bundle it up much later with some other stuff they're working on
>you did (?) for a company
>>96150802 I didn't work on it, my close friends did. I'm talking because I was closely familiar with the project and what they were doing. I have nothing to lose by you guys pointing out what went wrong.

>>96118854
>By the 4th page it's clear she isn't saying anything of value
>Check the total length of the "article"
>MFW

>>96152262
Indians will literally work for next to nothing, it doesn't cost much to hire a few to shill the crap out of something, stop coping and just accept that your friends had no fucking idea how to market their convoluted game

>>96118503 (OP)
I worked for a british company that makes model kits and games. Pretty lit for the most part. Worst part is dealing with the ASPD folks who hide behind the autism excuse and the old fat divorced dudes who bitch about everything. Other than those weirdos, it was awesome. I would give stories, but it's honestly not that eventful. The bad stories are all just some flavor of getting some glass-eyed weirdo to fuck off so I can sell the actual customers stuff. The job really made me hate fat people and video gamers oddly enough.

There is a comforting "fuck it" you get when you give in and work with a big company instead of against it.

>>96152262
If you can't spare a few grand to game platforms like IG and TT, you have no business making a game in the hope of not losing money. The board game revolution and a decade of crowdfunding means that you're competing with a decade of proven meeple pushers.

Istg, this is exhibit 50,000 of the Peter Principle applied to small business.

>>96152821
>stop coping and just accept that your friends had no fucking idea how to market their convoluted game
I'm yet to see a suggestion or a thing they haven't done already.
>>96153280
Well over 5000$ was spent in marketing

>>96153405
From the sounds of it they didn't do shit
>Well over 5000$ was spent in marketing
It's amazing that you think that's alot of money to spend on marketing, and honestly the money would have been best spent on indian shills
Like this anon says >>96150425 only a single paid review and basically nothing on their own channel, how the fuck did they expect people to even know the game existed? Iv seen boomer hippies selling healing crystals with better marketing than that, your friends had no fucking idea what they were doing so it's no wonder their game got zero attention

>>96149906
>but there is obviously a market for that
Obviously there isn't because it didn't sell
>You have youtube reviewers, you have customer reviews, hell, every normal company showcases how their games works and most devs even have some kind of instant response apps or discord servers where they can answer your questions fast and precise.
They managed to get 1 YouTuber to review it and they haven't uploaded anything on their own channel for over a year, they gave up on their own product so why would you expect the buying public to care about it? I get that they are your friends and you want to stick up for them but it seems like they just designed a game with themselves in mind, didn't do much market research, didn't have a solid business plan past getting the game printed and didn't put much effort into marketing it, it doesn't matter if the game is good you need to know how to sell it to the public, and frankly after watching that review it looks like a hard sell, just endless cards and tokens and mechanics, it all looks pretty overwhelming to someone first coming across it, they should have started with a more simplified streamlined version of the game that they could then sell expansions for once they had built a player base. As for marketing what did they actually do? Apart from that one review and their dead YouTube channel I can't find any presence of the game on social media, and that's like the bare minimum for advertising a new product, seems like they didn't put much effort in to creating awareness. Did they go on any podcasts? How many YouTube reviewers did they contact? Did they take the game to conventions? Did they send out any free copies to LGS and game clubs so people could try it?

>>96118854
Yep that's totally real. Nevermind the fact that the courts found Zak Smith guilty on all but one count.

>>96154618
Half of those aren't even crimes.

>>96152637
When do they ever say anything of value?

>>96154618
Guilty of what? Being a creepy sex-pest? I could have told you that just by looking at him. These aren't criminal convictions.

>>96154618
Go back to whatever shithole discord you crawled out of.
I don't care that some degenerate got his ass bullied. I DO care that it seems to get the retarded "indie scene" to shit and piss themselves, which is universally a good thing. You people are a plague and its hilarious you fight for scraps of attention because nothing you've ever written has been of enough quality to warrant what little you get.

>>96154730
>>96155364

Yes they are, dumdum.

>>96155893
Yeah? How many books did (You) publish?

>>96156015
How many dicks did you suck to get yours published?

>>96157013
8, one after the other in quick succession

>>96157168
The old boardroom meeting slut.

>>96119929
The art and graphic design on this were not excellent. Or they were excellent for computer screen but in print your dark and edgy turn into dark, blurry mess in anything but the sharpest light. Print has a much lower contrast than screens so you need to have very clear contrast between different elements.

>>96156015
>Yes they are, dumdum.
It was a civil case. "Found guilty" implies criminal conviction. The court just determined that her claims of him being a creepy sex-pest were mostly true. Again, no shit. He's a male leftist who dates a porn star.

>>96119347
Why does this paranoia live rent-free in your head?

>>96157603
Watch as the retarded leftoid you're talking to melts into the ether after demonstrating you know more than absolutely nothing about the American legal system.

>>96118854
Miserable fucks all

>>96118854
jfc they're practically aliens at this point with no relation to human beings

>>96119929
>bloated dungeon crawler with generic art and no miniatures doesn't sell
weird

>>96158269
I know right? How did people not flock to it in droves? Obviously there's something wrong with absolutely everyone else and not the product itself

>>96118838
Just because you create a game that's "high quality" doesn't mean you're entitled to my money.

>>96119929
This game does not look good anon, it looks like a mess

>>96154618
That list of checks and Xs was made by Skerples.
That was from a defamation case Zak won and Viv lost

Every idiot, even me, can write shit in a text
document and post it online. Nobody who posts that list ((13 times already) seems to be able to describe what proof was offered of those things in court, because it requires some effort to check what was the Judge's decision. I'm sure in the US you can check the court documents, can't you?

>>96163394
I'm just surprised it took this long for the goons to show up and defend themselves. Usually when Zak comes up and their disgusting, murderously mentally ill 'community' comes up, they go balls-out in spamming. What makes it funny is Zak is a huge fucking faggot and not liked on 4chan, either.

>>96158269
>>96159139
Market is simply too crowded for that kind of thing right now. You need to do a thing or serve a franchise that other people aren't. And even then if you're a literally-who you need to be a 1-3 man operation at most.

>>96118854
Is there a TLDR of this tranny rambling? That article is way too long.

>>96165171
TL;DR Tranny justice warrior shocked to discover "her side" is filled with Goons and backstabbers, late to the party by over a decade by this point

>>96165253
I think the main takeaway is that the goons and backstabbers admit to doing so, without anonymizing themselves, and without remorse.
That they are proud of being scummy people isn't a surprise. That they believe others support them is at least somewhat surprising.

Really the entire article is a cautionary tale about engaging in online spaces full of troonery and virtue signaling, how prevalent they are, how openly they act, and how incestuous the whole indie scene really is. If anyone wanted to publish a module or write for TTRPGs I would consider it required reading.

>>96165253
Better late than never.

>>96165410
Seconded. I want to make nerd things for a living? I've just learned not to have a relationship outside of professional with these people.

>>96165171
Degenerate mentally unstable people proven to be untrustworthy for some weird reason