>watch a video on how to design games
>starts railing against AI art and using it at any stage, from production to prototyping
So is it better to never release a game and never pay any artists, or prototype with AI art and use that a springboard to pay for real art?
I got 210 cards I need to do art for I can't doodle this shit

>>96245752 (OP)
thousands of indie games were published without AI

>>96245846
But they didn't hire traditional draftsmen, I imagine they hired people who used photoshop

>>96245846
Before AI was a thing. They also didn't pay artists and used their own shitty doodles or nome at all.

>>96245752 (OP)
Did the video producer give a reason for avoiding AI art?

>>96245752 (OP)
Just keep in mind that your game will be rejected out of hand as more slop if you use AI.

>>96245752 (OP)
> I can't doodle this shit
Why not? Did your hands fall off or something?

>>96245924
This.
Example: Me.

>>96245911
>ai is theft!

Use public domain art wherever possible instead. Much classier that way.

>>96245752 (OP)
Neat thing about advice is you don't have to take it.

>watch a video on how to design games
>I got 210 cards
Why are you only now watching videos about how to make a game when you're already so deep into making the game?

>So is it better to never release a game and never pay any artists, or prototype with AI art and use that a springboard to pay for real art?
Why do you need to waste time generating images when you probably already have an idea of what the card is and what should be on it? Just tell the guy you're paying "here's what I want" if you actually believe that to be an option and cut out the robot middleman.

>>96246618
>GIVE
>ME
>MONEY

>>96246641
I never told him to pay artists, he brought it up himself in the OP post. Really, good flourishes in the margins is all he needs to make the cards visually appealing. I don't care about the ethics of ai, I just selfishly want the world to be less ugly.

>>96245752 (OP)
why do you need art at the prototype stage anyway? it's just filler
also though if you think you can sell the prototype to people to pay artists, then doodles are the more sound commercial decision
the people that are going to buy some shelf queen indie card game want DIY "sovl", they don't want to look at some shitty AI illustration

>>96246641
What’s the issue with paying someone to make it look good and give it a unique flourish to attract future customers?
>it costs money
Yes, all investments do. Frankly, you don’t get something for nothing. You can either do the job yourself, scrape by with whatever public domain stuff you can find, or pay someone to make it look good.

>but muh ai of the future
If OP needed a yes-man, he’d be asking chat gpt instead of asking a Mongolian basket-weaving forum. The card game itself should be functional, I don’t see why he can’t spend an afternoon doodling some pictures for alpha/field testing and then look to spruce the art up with professional assistance to make his cards stand out fro. The competition

>>watch a video

>>96245752 (OP)
People would rather sell their soul to an artificial alien god than LEARN TO DRAW


Why do you need art assets for a prototype game anyways? Nearly all art for prototype games are placeholders. In fact, art is one of the last things you add when making a game

>>96245850
>Muh draughtsmen

>>96245752 (OP)
Why would you need art in a prototype? I mean unless you're doing a public sale's pitch and need the shinies.

>>96246916
>If OP needed
OP needed to engage in bait and you know it
delete the thread
nothing of value would be lost

>>96246940
>people would rather type a few words and press a button than spend thousands of hours learning a skill
No shit.

>>96245752 (OP)
>I got 210 cards I need to do art for I can't doodle this shit
If you are talking beta art, yes, you can.

Will it take time? Sure. It'll also take time to prompt the AI well enough.

>>96245752 (OP)
>So is it better to never release a game and never pay any artists, or prototype with AI art and use that a springboard to pay for real art?
You will forever have the stink of AI clinging to your game and people will use it to tell others not to play it because it has a bad reputation.
>But I think AI is good/I feel like that shouldn't happen
Cool, but it doesn't matter how you feel or what you think. People who hate AI will shit on it and avoid it, and if your game isn't shit (And the Pareto Principle says it probably is unplayable dogshit anyways), it will have no growth potential.
So you know what? Go ahead, it's probably gonna flop anyways.

>>96245752 (OP)
>Internet gets self-righteous about something
It's better to ignore it and do whatever the hell you want.

>>96246940
How is it any different from CNC machine tools replacing manual ones? Aside from the fact that it's threatening the jobs of people who thought that sort of thing only happened to the peasants.

>>96247562
>Rational conversation
>With someone bloviating on the internet
You're not talking to them about the topic. You're talking to them about their sense of self-worth. That's not a conversation you can win, anon. They've tied their self-worth to being mad about Thing on Internet. Why do they bring it here instead of Twitter? Who knows. With hystrionics like using AI is selling you "soul to an artificial alien god," do you really think you're about to engage in a rational conversation?

>>96247591
>>96247562
get a room

>>96247603
Stop being a voyeur, weirdo.

>>96247562
>t. can't rptate the apple
>the wobbot wiww do it fow me :3

>>96247562
>How is it any different from CNC machine tools replacing manual ones?
Maybe I've been miss-informed, but I don't think CNC machines ever required global industrial espionage and IP theft just so that they'd power up when you flip the switch.

>>96247562
The basic problem is that if you want to make the art look acceptable, you need to put in time and effort, but no sloppa wants to put in time or effort, and furthermore lacks the aesthetic sense to even come back from dinner to a completed gen of 100 pics and select the one that looks best.

>>96247562
LLM machines are only really good for replacing the kind of art nobody pays attention to anyways, not for the kind of artwork that actually stands out from the competition. That along with model collapse means people will stop caring in about a few years.

>>96245846
And they largely lost their creators money

My money is precious and dwindling.

Why should I spend what little I have on something you didn't put the effort to make?

Got to some art school or smth and ask kids to draw shit for you for pennies.

>>96246916
>I don’t see why he can’t spend an afternoon generating some pictures for alpha/field testing and then look to spruce the art up with professional assistance to make his cards stand out from the competition
Why is doodling shit prototype drawings better than generating decent ones?

>>96247864
It's going to be replaced with competent art later, so it's unironically faster that way

>>96247591
>>96247095
>stop discussing this
>stop having conversations
>this conversation I don't find value in is worthless and needs to end right now
yikes

>>96247824
Are you paying me for a game or for goon material? I'm a game designer not an artist

>>96247877
>I'm a game designer
Good one, anon! I almost snorted at it.

>>96247877
>Are you paying me for a game or for goon material? I'm a game designer not an artist
Art in game books is prolific for a reason, anon, and that reason is it's what the audience wants. The days of a 40 page book with ten B&W pieces are long gone.

>>96245752 (OP)
>So is it better to never release a game and never pay any artists
Obviously it's better if most peple who can't power through the basic process of creating something don't use a system to create a thing and then say they did made it. It's a waste of space and time.

You couldn't even get 3 friends together to try out some ideas you had, what makes you think you'll get the thousands needed to make it rentabke? You might have spent too much time with chatgpt being your yes man and now sound deluded.

>>96247899
Good thing making art is cheaper and faster than ever with generative AI, if art is what the people actually want
>no no they want artists making the art
This just reminds me of that AI child drawing of sonic and people cooing over that. People don't know what they want, they only know AI was supposed to eliminate jobs for dirty truckers not le enlightened arteests

>>96247911
>You couldn't even get 3 friends together to try out some ideas you had
This thread is about the art for the game though, not the game itself, friend

>>96247914
>This just reminds me of that AI child drawing of sonic and people cooing over that. People don't know what they want, they only know AI was supposed to eliminate jobs for dirty truckers not le enlightened arteests
You're free to huff this copium, but there's a reason this thread was made. AI art is trash sloppa people hate, one guy on 4chan successfully tricking retards here doesn't change that.

>>96247929
AI art is trash sloppa, which is why it is fine to be used in the prototype stage because that's where trash sloppa exists. Claiming that AI art has no place at any point of a game's development is silly and anti-progress

>>96247936
Uniorinically, if someone is so apathetic as to turn to AI art for their prototype work, then they might as well just take an even faster and far lower effort route to steal shit from google image search. Cause AI slop is literally everywhere and you don't need to waste your own electricity to make another piss-colored animu waifu image when a trillion already exist on the internet.

>But that's theft
Lol
Lmao even

>>96247953
So at the core you agree with my and my sentiment that using throwaway art for the prototype stage is fine, as long as you don't try to go on and sell those actual AI art pieces as part of your game.

>>96247963
It's not my game, anon, so I literally don't care what OP does or doesn't do. I've been one of the people saying that just mspainting your images would be a good stop-gap here, after all. I disagree that using AI art is the most efficient manner when I've highlighted two other methods that are far faster, just mspainting it or google image search placeholders, but that's a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

Though I'm definitely not going to act like I have any hope in OP, because starting a thread trying to defend the use of AI before he's even done it indicates he only started the thread to get asspats and assurance he's "doing the right thing", not cause he cares that much about getting his game off the ground.

>>96247936
I don't have anything against AI art in the prototype phase; Mythic Bastionland used some, then paid for some very nice pieces from an actual artist that gave it unique character.

(I'm not >>96247953)

>>96245880
Mothership still uses the crappy original art for the covers because it had built momentum with just the designer doing the art.

>>96248011
I am OP friend, I've developed a game and 200 cards around it. It was faster for me to generate the images for those 200 cards than it would have been to MSpaint doodle, or to even find random google images that meet what I want.
I don't intend to sell a finished product using AI art, but I heard an opinion that AI art doesn't belong anywhere even in the prototyping stage and I wanted to bring that discussion here

>>96248026
Then good for you, now focus on getting your game done instead of wasting time here

>>96246641
can you believe those fucks want me to pay for a hamburguer? how entitled can you get?

>>96246940
>Why do you need art assets for a prototype game anyways?
because he's so AI poisoned he never actually asked around how the process works, made no connections with anyone with experience in the field where he wants to work, and assumed everything is popped out already finished like an AI picture.

>>96248035
Wasting time here having these kinds of discussions are small things that contribute towards the final product. If you don't like the discussion in this thread you are welcome to leave it

>>96248049
I've worked in the board game industry for 6 years and traveled across the country doing convention work. You are poisoned by anti-AI sentiment that you've become rabid

>>96247914
>Good thing making art is cheaper and faster than ever
I heard that artists only require half a gallon of water to stay hydrated, but that must be an Anti-AI lie because I can't draw for shit, no matter how much water I drink.

>>96248026
>I am OP friend, I've developed a game and 200 cards around it.
Earlier it was 210.

>>96245880
>>96245846
this but free public use pics/ bring do small and obscure that no one cares if you took art.

>>96247914
why didn't you post a good example then?
The pylons aren't consistent with the one right after and the road is made for giant three wheelers.
You ask a company to make you a picture, they gave you shit and you came here to tells us how nice they are.

>>96248053
If you want me to be frank, OP, then there's not much to really discuss. While I somehow doubt that you can't just steal 200 images from 4chan alone, if you've already committed to doing AI even before the thread is over, then that's your decision. I wouldn't, but only cause I don't personally consider AI art to be worth the waste of electricity.

>>96248075
>The pylons aren't consistent with the one right after and the road is made for giant three wheelers.
Works for a prototype

>>96248098
I'm committed to having a discussion on the use of AI for prototyping because I have used AI to prototype the images for my cards

>>96245992
>>96245911
You can't copyright it, so anyone can use the art

>>96248111
Then you have your answer. "Do whatever, it's your life."

>>96247923
he wouldn't be looking for any purpose advice videos and discussing it here if he had people trying out his game.

>>96248060
sure you did, that's why you make pity threads on /tg/

>>96245752 (OP)
AI Art doesn't offend me I've never cared. I guess it mostly sucks but whatever, all art sucks these days. Unless it's of Elves, elf art can still be good.

What must be totally excised from reality is AI writing. I can spot ChatGPT's atrocious verbiage from a mile away and it makes me want to kill myself every time I see it.

>>96248136
>how dare he continues to learn and develop as a game designer
lol

>>96248111
I will note, the only reason I know Mythic Bastionland used AI art in its prerelease form is that a guy's review/discussion of the game spent ~4 minutes of the 15 minute runtime bitching about it and saying that it's basically just that this was done a ways back/by a guy he likes/that he's said over and over that it's just placeholder that means he will talk about the game at all.

>>96248158
Buddy, if you have 5+ years of experience in a field you don't need the advice a youtuber is gonna give you. I don't even believe you have 5 years of experience jacking off.

>>96248201
Buddy do you think working in the board game industry means I worked specifically as someone who designed the games?

>>96247914
>This just reminds me of that AI child drawing of sonic and people cooing over that.
If you'd read the actual thread nobody was "cooing" over that. People called the poster retarded and he had very obviously replied to himself.
But I don't expect a slop poster to be able to discern details lmao

>>96248319
>he was only replying to himself
From the people that brought you hits like
>every meme is a psyop
And
>talking about something means you're a marketer

>>96245752 (OP)
The reason most normal people don't like AI slop isn't because anyone can make it and it hurts le artists, it's because of how you can't go anywhere on the internet without stumbling upon AI slop due to big corpos and xitter grifters pushing it non stop for years, to the point where everyone is fucking sick of it.

Go ahead and use AI for your game or whatever you want to do. Just don't be surprised when there's massive rejection from anyone who would actually want to interact with it, since the only people who want to see AI slop are the ones using it themselves, and they're more likely to just take your shit and AI generate their own from it for their newest grift.

>>96248369
There's also that whenever there's an update you get a month of new looking stuff before it's been exploited to the point you get sick of seeing it because it's fucking everywhere.
No matter how it looks, people will turn it into corporate memphis.

>>96248363
Yes anon, conveniently the replies were all spaced to within a minute of eachother, it's pure coincidence, AI is truly soulful!

>>96248917
Anon the image itself has two posts that are only 6 seconds apart. You're getting monumentally blown the fuck out right now.

>>96245752 (OP)
AI slop looks like shit and "amateur game designers" are likely to use whatever they get from their prompt without trying to fix or modify it at all.
If we're using AI slop, why not ask a chatbot to write a game for free instead of paying "game designers" to do it.

>>96249340
I didn't pay a game designer to get my game designed, why should I be required to pay an artist to do my prototype art?

>>96245752 (OP)
If I see AI art I dismiss whole thing as slop.
If I see shitty stick figure doodles it signals to me that creator is willing to pour his heart and soul into his game, and this is something I can support.

Simple as.

I think this all stems from the migration of hyper commies and leftists in to the gaming space. The people railing against AI art i think are the same kinds of people who imagine they'd be poetry teachers in a communist regime. These 'artists' took refuge in a hobby that was about crunch and objectivity and are slowly whittling it down to objective garbage.
These people were never supposed to be put out of work by AI, they were supposed to be the one immune profession and they get taken out first

>>96249389
>required
And there it is, the sign you're doing this just to get assurance that those filthy "ai haters" are against you. Like cripes, just do it if you really want to, nobody's stopping you

>>96249485
>only commies think AI slop looks ugly
No, just anybody with eyeballs.

>>96249389
You're prototyping, you double nigger. Youy don't need art at ALL during prototype stage. Curb your autism, draw some funny shitdoodles and focus on making a mechanically good game first.

>>96249485
Nah, I'm as right-wing as it gets and I recognize AI as symptom of jeetery/general brownness.

>>96245752 (OP)
I think you should consider how AI art and the perception of such will affect your potential sales. I gotta wonder what you need so much detailed art in your prototype for so bad though.

>>96245752 (OP)
Just use the ai art if you don't think it's such a big deal

>>96249556
Its one thing to think it's ugly or brown coded, but another to rabidly fight against any use of it at any point in a games development

>>96249592
If you use AI for commercial purposes you're spiritually brown, sorry pal, them's the rules.

>>96249613
I see

Who knew 4chan was the home for all the corporate shills?

>>96250025
The artist corporate shills or the game design corporate shills?

>>96248062
funny thing about flesh and blood artists is that they want water, electricity and housing, same as GANs, but they also want things like 'food', 'prestige', and 'profit', all of which cost money and none of which are demanded by GANs
the unfortunate reality is that they'll have to compete with a machine to produce throwaway slop art, and considering the degenerated ability of the average individual to genuinely appreciate art, the fleshie artists are pretty much already priced out. furry fapcore artists are gonna have to double up on their dayjobs, and generic fantasy doodlers will have to start working on the design side rather than the execution side if they want to stay fed.

progress marches forward and cares not for those crushed beneath its tread.

>>96247628
>muh IP theft
you do realize, anon, that when an artist posts an image to some manner of hosting service to display it to the public, that they no longer retain universal distribution rights in perpetuity? that art 'theft' isn't happening because the holders of the distribution rights--the hosting service--allow their services to be crawled by bots, which in turn feed the art--acquired perfectly legally under the terms of use and/or corporate use agreements--to the AI that then produces uncopyrightable compositions thereof.

while i agree that the artist should retain those rights in full, feelings and ideals don't override contractual agreements. if they didn't read the Ts&Cs before they put their art out there, there's nobody to blame but the uploader.

>>96249556
>I'm as right-wing as it gets
We're you born retarded or did you get hit on the head later in life?

>>96245850
Do you have any fucking idea who draftsmen even were and what was their job?

t. one of the final years until they closed the school, because AutoCAD was everywhere.

>>96250568
>you do realize, anon, that when an artist posts an image to some manner of hosting service to display it to the public, that they no longer retain universal distribution rights in perpetuity?
They actually do. Automatic copyright applies as soon as the work has been created and can't be voided unless you explicitly enter into an actual contract. The hosting service you mentioned generally don't care and don't control who uploads the image, so they can't sensibly claim that their TOS grants them the right of the commercial use of anything hosted on their services.

Also stealing your product to train a machine that is literally meant to shit into your sandwich (and that could not identify a sandwich without millions of people having been forced to point at all manners of sandwiches for years) is not a case of fair use.