Thread 96340081

Why is in every debate we have, 40k fans always act like they don’t need to spend literal years traveling to a fight, while Star Wars fleets already glassed the planet and rebuilt the Death Star twice before they even show up?

>>96340081 (OP)
>Why is in every debate we have

>>96340081 (OP)
>in every debate we have
Link 10+ said debates as proof.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KALKITE.

>>96340081 (OP)
Because any names space marine solos your entire franchise, no matter how long it takes him to get there

>>96340126
>Because any names space marine solos your entire franchise
Doubtful, given that VILE's feats include stealing the entire Milky Way. Peak Carmen Sandiego solos 40K, this is established fact.

>>96340854
Forgot pic.

>>96340081 (OP)
40k ships are FTL so assuming the warp doesn't fuck them over they should be able to get wherever they need to go?

>>96340888
>40k ships are FTL
So are ships in Alien. So are the ship in Starship Andromeda Not all FTL methods are created equal.

the franchise with the larger fan base gets to dictate which laws of physics apply. how would most debates go?

>>96341065
The basic FTL of Mass Effect that every ship has is 10x faster than the fastest Star Trek Starfleet ship, was weird how everyone in that setting treated the destruction of the Relay Gates as an unrecoverable catastrophe when it just means they'd take a year to reach the other side of the galaxy instead of an hour with the slight inconvenience of needing to discharge their drive at a planet every few lightyears. Would also be an incentive to visit 99.9% of the galaxy that isn't within a 1 lightyear radius of a Mass Relay.

Should be the golden age of exploration.

>>96341065
yeah but the ftl in warhammer is pretty fast or the travel time is mostly ignored from what I've seen

>>96340081 (OP)
speaking seriously, the Emperor would have killed for Star Wars Hyperspace drives or Star Trek warp drives. Or any setting that has a quick, reliable FTL tech. 40k Warp drives are literal nightmares powered by caged psyker sacrifices. Unreliable, dangerous, requires fuck-ugly mutant bastards to pilot your ship for you, and can accidentally fuck with time and space if it goes wrong. Frankly it's a bit dubious that any ship in 40k ever arrives at its destination in one piece, but the narrative requires for there to be gigantic crusades of 10 billion cathedral ships not having Event Horizon tier catastrophes so they can arrive in every sector to fight the 200 quintillion Tyranid, Ork, and Chaos ships arriving in every sector every day, because muh there is only war
40k is just so fucking retarded

>>96340081 (OP)
Star Wars fags need to chart a hyperlane route to Sol and once it's charted need to adhere to it or risk spaghetti-ing themselves on loose debris, making them predictable.

>>96340081 (OP)
>act like they don’t need to spend literal years traveling to a fight
It varies depending on narrative need. If its a major character it only takes a few hours.

>>96341900
>40k Warp drives are literal nightmares powered by caged psyker sacrifices. Unreliable, dangerous, requires fuck-ugly mutant bastards to pilot your ship for you, and can accidentally fuck with time and space
why do 40k fans always make it sound so melodramatic and gay

>>96341900
>40k is just so fucking retarded
>>96342029
>why do 40k fans always make it sound so melodramatic and gay
Because over the top retarded gay melodrama is the whole point of 40k

>>96342056
It's also the point of emo music, and you wouldn't be surprised if people cringed at emo dudes.

>>96342015
40k fags need the astronomicon the even move in the star wars galaxy or they are forced to commit to even slower micro-jumps, which would uttlery BTFO them

>AD 2025
>caring about either troon wars or trannyhammer 40000

>>96341537
it's very unpredictable, sometimes it will take 1000 years, or 2 minutes

>>96344511
but in almost every warhammer story it takes a normal amount of time

>>96342029
Because the retarded theatre kiddies ate up newslop and now eager to posture.
>>96341900
Warp drives/gellar fields are purely technological marvels and were reliable for their initial period.
Every modern vessel would still sink like a bitch if it ever gets into tsunami. Imperial vessel has a chance at least.

This, it took the Imperium over a century to notice the Tau and send a Crusade to deal with them, that failed

Every other sci-fi settings run circles around them

>>96345905
>saying this as if Helldivers isn't ST tactics but dumber

>>96342096
I get what you saying, but tbf hyperspace travel is literally a delicate art and requires coordination.
One of the comics, like during the time Sith were just an alien race rather than a group of dark forced users, starts as a result of screwing up a chart and causing a merchant ship to fall into a sun.
Which leads to the twins meeting Naga Sadow.

>>96348122
ST means Star Trek, not Starship Troopers.
And it's only the Verhoeven version.

>>96345905
They literally found the Tau at their most primitive state and it's only because the planet got covered in a Warp storm they didn't exterminated them.
But sure, it took them "centuries" to find them.

>>96340081 (OP)
if 40kfags are obnoxious the rest of you spacebattles losers deserve it

>>96340081 (OP)
These "vs debates" basically boil down to "their FTL is faster so they win".
Which often feels stupid and lame since okay they hyperspace nuke the god emperor as a plot device, dues ex machina type shit from a writing standpoint.

>>96349109
>Some noblebright/lawful stupid setting interloper from another galaxy who gets all self righteous at the darkness of 40K so they go on a terrorist attack against the god emperor that works due to their OP hyperspace only to cause the IoM to fall into another age of strife and make things even worse.

>>96341161
Wasn't the entire issue that the vast majority of ships in Mass Effect aren't FTL in their own right due to the Relay Gates and all the mass transit infrastructure in the galaxy is centered around the Relay Gates?

>>96348167
The films don't really say anything about it other than having to plot a course around known massive obstacles. The EU is pretty unclear about it when viewed as a whole but usually treats it like sailing in that there are better and worse routes to take but you can go wherever you want.

>>96349147
And also leave the Galaxy suffering from the Warp. Because contrary to their believe, the Warp can "bleed" through reality.
And let's not forget that some of this ftl travel methods require coordinates and it's own system to not keep the ship like what happened to that guy who got got stuck in hyperspace that when he came back many years have passed.
Just like how Warp travel requires the Astronomican to help travel and a gellar field.
Oh and let's not forget planetary defenses and fortresses. Terra has a lot of those, namely the Phalanx. And energy shields.
I could go on how FTL travel isn't everything. Cuz Helldivers has a reliable one but everything else of it is unreliable.

I'm afraid it would eventually turn into a Hannibal at the gates situation for Star Wars.
SW could run around destroying undefended planets and ambushing unsuspecting fleets, but they would run into a brick wall if they ever tried to take a fortified system or planet.

>>96349205
If we go by movies, sure, not much is said. I only remember 4 touching on it when Han is gonna do it on the Millenium Falcon and tells Luke that it's really something that you shouldn't hurry because you could end up on a supernova or near it.
Like it happened in that Tales of the Jedi comic.

>>96349262
Funny thing that's exactly how Bucharis' empire crumbles in 40k.
He kept stretching himself until his men got to Fenris, so guess what happened? They got curbstomped and it began yo crash everything he made slowly.

>>96340081 (OP)
They're the only ones who understood the assignment, which is that there is no "debate," there are no comparisons that make any sense, and you aren't arguing in good faith or even arguing about anything. Fictional universes cannot be compared except through narrative contrivance, which means that actually, what you are "debating" is who has more will and who can simply overpower the other with rhetoric and numbers.

The answer is, they can. The fact that the consensus online is still that the Imperium of Man is the good guys and everything in 40k is huge and powerful while like 5 people globally know who Iain Banks even was is a sign of their immense cultural victory, they've just crushed dissenting opinion through weight of fanaticism and volume of voicee, and there is nothing that you can do about it.

Even now, you frame this not as a serious question of lore, but as a compoment in a larger meta-argument, which is an even FURTHER sign that you perceive yourself as part of the losing side of a fandom war, which is hilarious in and of itself.

>>96345832
>Warp drives/gellar fields are purely technological marvels and were reliable for their initial period.
they were never reliable. The Navigator mutants were the crucial missing piece to make warp travel 'reliable' because they could chart courses through the Warp to actually end up in the correct place. Before Navigators came around, humanity had to very, very roughly estimate where its warp jumps would go and had to use micro-jumps, far slower, to ensure at least a modicum of accuracy in their movements. That's still the strategy whenever there's no Astronomicon or the ship's Navigator dies for some reason

>>96349490
you sound like a pretentious faggot, fuck off back to r*ddit

>>96340103
Anon could literally just link the spacebattles forum and be right.

>>96349262
Imperial worlds are so dependent upon trade to compensate for overspecialization that if you destroy all the Chartist fleets, Terra collapses overnight, Mars's forges go cold, Cadia is reduced to rioting over cannibal cults, etc.

>>96349205
>Wasn't the entire issue that the vast majority of ships in Mass Effect aren't FTL in their own right due to the Relay Gates
No, read the codex entries anon. All ship in mass effect are capable of FTL to different degrees. The relays were just so FTL they were basically teleportation arrays that used wormhole tunnels.

>>96349490
Interesting how the rest of the thread is about 40k versus Star Wars yet this post claiming superiority of cultural awareness suddenly uses Iain Banks instead.

>>96349490
is this pasta?

>>96350200
That requires them to attack the Chartist fleets and know where they come from.
Which means give the Imperium that window because you can't do hit and run FTL nilly-willy.

>>96349490
Star Wars is a bigger IP than Warhammer 40K, both are mainstream but Star Wars is mainstream on a level that makes Warhammer 40K look like some irrelevant misery porn some Britons pulled out their bum.

>>96349490
Yeah, narrative contrivance decides everything, Star Wars characters literally respawn in canon. Palpatine got DLC. Boba Fett got New Game+. Your lore can’t even give you a movie, only shitty fan film made by fans

>>96345905
>Every other sci-fi settings run circles around them
True!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1F-07gH5dM&pp=ygUhUHJpbmNlIE9iZXJ5biBNYXJ0ZWxsIFZzIE1vdW50YWlu0gcJCa0JAYcqIYzv

>>96340081 (OP)
Why do you feel the need to relitigate this thread like every week?

Are you taking a break from making your weekly Casters vs Martials thread or something?

Do you even play anything 40K OR Star Wars related, much less something that combines the two?

>>96340126
>any named space marine
>needing a name to be unkillable
*blocks ur path*

>>96342080
My Chemical Romance is more masculine than anything related to the Imperium, if you wanna know the truth of it

>>96351606
>Star Wars characters literally respawn in canon.
Perpetuals and Primarchs, your argument is invalid

>>96340081 (OP)
Do you want to know how war batween Imperium of Man and Galactic Empire would go?
IoM ships would do warp jump, got delayed decade or 2 because of warp shenenigans and Galactic Empire would have alredy fallen to bunch of rebels.
Imperium still hasn't lost war to teddy bears.
Imperium had longer civil wars than total time Empire lasted.

>>96352090
>Imperium still hasn't lost war to teddy bears.
They've lost to feral orks, which is comparable. Especially if you factor in the EU material that makes ewoks stupidly strong for their size since Endor is something of a deathworld.

They also regularly lose to fucking clowns.

>>96352106
>They've lost to feral orks, which is comparable
You mean race designed as bio weapon that reproduce by spores when they die, it's only concern is fighting, have strenght of gorilla and can survive decapitation?
No matter how much EU shit you put at movies empire best stormtroopers losing to ewoks is pathetic. George should stick to wookie rebelion, but teddy bears are easier marketable to kids...
>clowns
You mean supgroup of eldar that even Drukhari: backstabbing sadistic fucks who consider civil war an entertainment, decide to not fuck with?

>>96352172
>best stormtroopers losing to ewoks is pathetic
No less pathetic than custodes losing to clowns. Or to a simple fucking worker's revolt run by inbred mutants.
>noooo our clowns/inbreds are heckin epicerino over 9 million!
God 40kids are so fragile

>>96352192
I'm just pointing out that main SW cannon in form of movies don't agree well with what what eu was trying to make, George himself didn't consider eu valid. So eu "ewoks are super strong" or blaster penetrate 3 meters of steel don't hold up to scrutiny when you see in movie ewoks slowly throwing small rocks and small spears or when unarmoured Leia is shoot with blaster from close range, but unlike fully armoured stormtroopers is only slightly wounded instead of totaly knocked out/dead.

>>96348234
No no no anon, they discovered the Tau millenia ago. But once the Tau started conquering imperial worlds it took the imperium 150 years to send a response. They are that slow and inefficient

>>96352090
The Galactic Empire in its most final state had an entire fleet of Star Destroyers that could blow up a planet in seconds.

Light speed a Final Order star destroyer to terra and blow it up in 2 second, Imperium is done

>>96352090
If the Force was acting against the Imperium of Man, it would implode overnight. Palpatine did a fantastic job considering the Force laid the seeds of his downfall 20 years ahead of time.

>>96351026
>That requires them to attack the Chartist fleets and know where they come from.
Neither of those are difficult anon, Chartists are merchant ships, lightly defended, and the Empire could just trace them to their depot worlds that they all collect cargo from and blow them up there. They'll all be warp jumping in one by one and straight into an ambush.
>Which means give the Imperium that window because you can't do hit and run FTL nilly-willy.
It's pretty easy in Star Wars, it's not easy in 40k. Because warp drives are literal fucking garbage for FTL.

>>96350183
They were reliable in the calmer warp currents. And, as a matter of fact, there are still warp drives in the Imperium that do not use Navigators at all.
Naturally, they're more dangerous in the current year and three eyed fishmen are seething about it in addition, but it does work.
There are devices that can do the Navigator's work too, so it's definitely doable.

The inherent danger is warp itself, rather than the drives.

>>96352623
All warp drives work without navigators. You're just flying blind.

>>96352308
>The Galactic Empire in its most final state had an entire fleet of Star Destroyers that could blow up a planet in seconds.
>Loses a galaxy-wide war within an hour to people with none of these
Yeah the Imperium would be fine.

>>96340081 (OP)
The problem with the warp isn't that it's slow, but that it's unreliable as fuck and liable to murder rape you the second something goes from. The time table for warp travel extends from never to arriving before departure. Also, for the purpose of "my setting can beat your setting debates", people frequently neglect that the Imperium's warp travel isn't fucky just because their tech is, but because the setting itself is fucky, thus in crossover scenarios, either the warp fucks everyone or no one, meaning if you transplant the Imperium into the Star Wars galaxy, warp travel might end up basically being Chiss hyperspace travel, conversely if you dump the Empire in the 40k galaxy, hyperspace travel might suddenly begin getting intruded on by daemons and daemons bursting out of the faces of force sensitives might become a common risk.

>>96340081 (OP)
>need to
but thats not true
sure if you average out every warp jump ever made then it would be like 50 years per jump
but some jumps could be a day or a week long
or arrive the day before the call asking them to come

>>96344534
you cant even begin to prove the point you just made even if you spent the next month trying to.

>>96352496
FTL is easy in Star Wars if you punch the right coordinates and aim at the right area. Han basically tells Luke off for insisting on going to Hyperspaces earlier. And we've seen how something like gets the Daragon Twins on a shitlist

>>96353042
its lanes(roads) engines and fuel that determine how long an ftl journey takes

>>96352302
>150 years
Weird way to say days but okay

>>96352192
No one gives a shit about Custodes lol. They are overglorified bodyguards who deserve being punted by naked, weaponless World Eaters(this happened in Outcast Dead)

>>96352192
>No less pathetic than custodes losing to clowns.
These clowns are literally the eldar equivalent to Custodes, one of (if not *the*) most elite fighting forces in all of the setting. Your average clown can literally shred through an entire force of Chaos Space Marines in the space it takes for their leader to wipe the blood from his visor.

>>96353097
anon....

>>96352815
> thus in crossover scenarios, either the warp fucks everyone or no one, meaning if you transplant the Imperium into the Star Wars galaxy, warp travel might end up basically being Chiss hyperspace travel, conversely if you dump the Empire in the 40k galaxy, hyperspace travel might suddenly begin getting intruded on by daemons and daemons bursting out of the faces of force sensitives might become a common risk.

Objection: 40k's reliance on the immaterium for travel has no bearing on FTL methods from other settings that don't work like that. Even in 40k, there are non-immaterium based forms of FTL (like the Inertialess drives of the Necrons, or the gravity-trick used by Tyranids).

You don't get polymorph an entire settings tech tree just to make it fit your demands. In a crossover, each settings tech has to work by default the same way that it would in their own universes, otherwise you are just making shit up. Hyperspace isn't the warp. Star Trek warp drives are not the warp, despite having the name 'warp' in it. Demanding otherwise is an admission of defeat because you think your setting can only compete if you change the rules for the other side to make you have a home field advantage.

>>96352749
They got spawn camped, a feat the Imperium is completely incapable of doing

>>96353144
I mean... The entire Battle of Endor was a Spawn Camping the Empire did.

>>96353136
What? I'm just saying.

>>96340081 (OP)
I will post it...well, not in every 40K VS thread, but in all the ones I notice.

>>96353042
>FTL is easy in Star Wars if you punch the right coordinates and aim at the right area.
Yes. The hyperspace computer handles all that for you. It takes a matter of minutes to set up a hyperspace jump and it's a matter of routine.
Meanwhile, in 40k, every warp jump requires hoop after hoop including charting a course by cogitator, then asking the Navigator if he can actually make that jump, the Navigator replying he doesn't feel like it and to ask him tomorrow, then when he finally decides to do his job, you have to go through a whole hours-long ritual ceremony of loading a psyker in a coffin into the warp drive to be the catalyst to rip open the Warp, and then pray the Gellar field holds when you enter the Immaterium, and pray your Navigator isn't too high on chems to do his job properly, and pray the daemons don't decide to all gang up on and smash your Gellar field so they can eat you anyways... then when you come out the other side, you have to pray you're not several centuries or lightyears off-course.

>>96352623
>They were reliable in the calmer warp currents.
The warp was never calm after the War in Heaven. Warp jumps were always crude and dangerous, this is why early human space expansion was slow as snailshit until Navigators were discovered.
>And, as a matter of fact, there are still warp drives in the Imperium that do not use Navigators at all.
You mean those incredibly unsafe warp route computers that every RT knows is a fucking death sentence? And still requires you to use shorter, slower jumps?
>Naturally, they're more dangerous in the current year and three eyed fishmen are seething about it in addition, but it does work.
Yes, the Leagues of Votann have a far more advanced version of that technology and it's actually far slower than Imperial warp tech.
>The inherent danger is warp itself, rather than the drives.
You're playing semantics. The warp drive is technology that utilizes the Warp. If the Warp is unsafe, warp drives are unsafe. There was never a time period that warp drive was safe or reliable because at no point in human history was the Warp safe or calm.

star wars wins because they dont rely on warp or AI to space travel.

>>96350200
Forget the Chartist fleets, half assing a BDZ on a couple of Agri-Worlds is enough to wipe out a sector.

>>96353294
>The warp was never calm after the War in Heaven.
Yes it was. It depends much on the location and timeline. There are stable warp routes where nothing really happens.
>You mean those incredibly unsafe warp route computers that every RT knows is a fucking death sentence?
Considering they were reinvented well after the Heresy, they have utility.
>Yes, the L-
Don't care about tranny lore, sorry.
But for the record, there are different patterns of warp drives to achieve the same.
>The warp drive is technology that utilizes the Warp. If the Warp is unsafe, warp drives are unsafe.
No, you're doing semantics here.
>There was never a time period that warp drive was safe or reliable because at no point in human history was the Warp safe or calm.
First up, you're wrong, and there are stable warp routes, calm spaces or stable time periods. It's like saying sea is never safe or reliable. Same as there are more stable warp drives, and all of them have nearly infinite durability to keep working for millenia.

>>96353294
>If the Warp is unsafe, warp drives are unsafe.
mercury is unsafe therefore mercury thermometers are unsafe
retard

>>96353190
Anon it took the Imperial administration 150 years since the first sphere of expansion to send a counter attack, in that timeframe any other sci-fi setting would wipe 40k

>>96353400
>Yes it was.
No. Whatever headcanon you're trying to push, the most ancient fluff written tells us that after the War in Heaven, the Warp was never calm again.
>There are stable warp routes where nothing really happens.
You mean stable-ish routes. The warp corridors you're referring to fluctuate a little bit every second, which is why the warp route charts owned by the Navigator Guilds have to be updated regularly to account for the long-term shifts and the constantly evolving hazards of such routes. Navigators are still necessary even when traveling on these routes to avoid running face first into a giant Warp tide that would smash through a Gellar field.
>Considering they were reinvented well after the Heresy, they have utility.
Even the RT books point out they're extraordinarily dangerous to use. They're never better than using a Navigator, they're only for emergencies, like if the Navigator died somehow.
>Don't care about tranny lore, sorry.
Then stop talking about the calmness of the warp, faglord.
>No, you're doing semantics here.
Amazing retort. I'll chalk that up to a concession since you don't actually have an argument here.
>First up, you're wrong,
Nope.
>and there are stable warp routes,
The Imperium's Warp routes are not 'safe,' they're 'safe-r'. Nothing in the Warp is truly safe. Navigators are the first ones to point this out.
>calm spaces or stable time periods.
No. Fuck off with your headcanon.
>It's like saying sea is never safe or reliable.
The Warp isn't the sea, you absolute fucking retard.
>Same as there are more stable warp drives, and all of them have nearly infinite durability to keep working for millenia.
It is incredible the level of delusion you have to simply dismiss every single reason why warp drives suck, from 40k itself, and then say "ackshully the tech is pretty good!" You're just braindead. Another GW-loving fagboy who doesn't even know the lore enough to defend it.

>>96353428
>mercury is unsafe therefore mercury thermometers are unsafe
Yeah, maybe if to use a thermometer you had to step into an alternate dimension that was nothing but mercury, and the mercury was alive and tried very hard to drown you, then that comparison would make sense. That is how absurd it is to declare warp drives safe, or reliable, or whatever the fuck you think they are.
>retard
lol.

>>96353453
The First Sphere Expansion never touched Imperial territories, anon. Neither side ran into one another during that timeframe.

>>96353524
>it is actually if i move the goalposts
retard

>>96353503
>Whatever headcanon you're trying to push, the most ancient fluff written tells us that after the War in Heaven, the Warp was never calm again.
I'm talking about the current state of the war, dumbass. It's dangerous now, but it can be as calm, or as impassable as needed.
If it wasn't calm at times, no ships would be able to sail.
>Even the RT books point out they're extraordinarily dangerous to use. They're never better than using a Navigator, they're only for emergencies, like if the Navigator died somehow.
No, these drives are simply incompatible with Navigators at all. They're self-sufficient and efficient system designed for Chartist vessels.
And if you know RT books, then you know there's also a Void Abacus is. It's even better. So archeotech devices can very well do without any Navigator at all.
>Amazing retort. I'll chalk that up to a concession since you don't actually have an argument here.
Anon above already explained it to you in definitive terms, retard. Screech more or don't.
>The Imperium's Warp routes are not 'safe,' they're 'safe-r'. Nothing in the Warp is truly safe. Navigators are the first ones to point this out.
Yeah, who would have thought that "people" receiving hyper-profits from monopoly on ship travel would lie about it. THAT's canon.
And warp storms exist specifically to highlight what is truly unstable and dangerous. And vessels can survive even there.
>No. Fuck off with your headcanon.
Oh, I see. Of course you're a lorelet retard, that explains everything.
>It is incredible
Indeed, your level of faggotry exceeds typical of 4chan retards. I suggest you kill yourself unironically, imbecile. Warhammer isn't for everyone.

>>96350190
This isn't Spacebattles, nigger.

>>96353250
Yeah I had to recheck I was wrong.
That being said all of that above is at best an exageration or a worst wrong.
>Navigator doesn't feel like it
Will be forced to do it. Same case as Astropaths. "I don't want to" DO IT.
>Ritual
Has never been done.
>Loading a Psyker into the coffin
Hasn't been done either.
>pray your Navigator isn't too high on chems to do his job properly
Does occasionally happen if you are a lowly one instead of one that uses other coping mechanism
>pray the daemons don't decide to all gang up on and smash your Gellar field so they can eat you anyways...
Only happens if you managed to be unlucky, attracted someone or decided to warp that is unstable.
>then when you come out the other side, you have to pray you're not several centuries or lightyears off-course.
Only happens if you pick unstable warp jumps or just unlucky.

Come on, we all know who wins and even, dare I say soloes

>>96353809
One-shotted by conscript

The fight I want to see is the IoM vs the Zentradi.
Both sides are made for only war, but its finally a matchup where the Imperium doesn't have a numerical advantage. The IoM even has a significant technological advantage over the Zentradi in a number of aspects (Zentradi don't fix their ships and don't have shields) but the Zentradi have the advantage of ground warfare being inconsequential to them (only a handful of Imperial ground weapons are of any threat against the Zentradi, space marines are no threat to them at all) and travelling around in fleet sizes that would make the Imperium shit itself, and they need a reason NOT to glass enemy worlds they fight, since they are entirely spaceborn and couldn't give less of a shit about controlling planets.
The Zentradi showed up to Space War 1's final battle with more than 4 million capital ships alone, not even counting escort ships or attack craft, and those ships are of comparable size to the larger IoM vessels. This is a single Zentradi armada, one of an estimated 350 different competing groups scattered across the galaxy.

>>96353034
I mean how many 40k stories are there where the characters have to go to a place (other than the eye of terror) and it takes them 20 years to get there? Probably not nearly as many as the stories where they just go to the place and the issues involved with warp travel are ignored.

>>96354089
Aren't the Zentradi literal giants, as like Anac tier? Or am I thinking of another faction?

>>96340081 (OP)
>dorsal turrets not even tracking the giant slice of Za whatever the fuck that thing is
LOL! not even a contest!

>>96349490
>series A uses laser weapons
>series B uses laser weapons
>NOOO YOU CAN'T JUST COMPARE THEM!!!!

>>96352231
>george didn't consider eu valid
you mean the same george that retconned the force into bacteria?
what he considers valid doesn't really matter

>>96353960
Galactic laser btw.

>>96353294
>There was never a time period that warp drive was safe or reliable because at no point in human history was the Warp safe or calm.
Wrong.
Between the Fall of the Eldar and the Horus Heresy, warp travel was usually safe and calm. That's how the Imperium conquered the galaxy in barely 200 years. This is not headcanon, it's stated multiple times in 40k/HH books.

It was even faster during the peak of the Dark Age of Technology, with even humanity using Startgate-style warp gates for ships

But in these 40k vs. SW debades, fanboys forget a few things:
>It's the Warp the same as the Hyperspace?
They share a lot of similarities, and you could argue that 40k ripped off the SW D6 RPG seminal lore (both released in 1987)
Are they fighting in the same galaxy with the same rules?
>Both SW and 40k need warp/hyperspace routes to travel fast.
In unknow territory, they both are reduced to short jumps to map their destination.

>>96354173
Sci-fi writers don't necessarily know what they're talking about. In one episode of Battlestar Galactica (the original one), a Cylon Basestar is said to be "the only one in the galaxy" even though the entire series at this point had been suggested to take place in just the one galaxy; the writers probably meant "star system" or "this area of space".

In the Japanese series Star Wolf, main character Ken is said to have abnormally huge strength (enough to fight off a forklift) because he's from "another constellation", even though a "constellation" is just a grouping of stars that might not actually be anywhere near each other, they just look close from the perspective of a given planet's night sky.

And then of course there's Solo's (in)famous line about making the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs when boasting about the Millennium Falcon's speed, even though a "parsec" is a unit of distance, not time.

And so on.

So, yeah. Not all lasers are necessarily created equal.

>>96354282
if your laser isn't a shot of high intensity light, then it isn't a laser.
it's kinda strict what a laser is.
starwars uses lasers, i.e. high intensity light. Star trek uses phasers, which is energy based, so one could argue plasma.

>>96340081 (OP)
Star Wars just sucks. It was pathetic and boring in the beginning, now it's worse than what GW did to 40k.

Debates about Star Wars aren't debates, they're basically just dunking on the family freak that is SW.

>>96354343
that's because star wars isn't a technical series like star trek is.
it's a western in space.
when was the last time a western talked about the alloy their revolver is made of? or the biological functions of their horse?
Star wars has the depth of a theme park, and that's fine.
but let's be real here, 40k is essentially "does this idea seem gothic and hrrifying? put it in!" without any regards to how stupid it is.
it's pseudo "deepness"

>>96354156
You are correct. Zentradi are all giants, ranging from 10-14 meters tall, and they most commonly fight each other so all of their military hardware is designed for that. they typically deploy not as ground troops in body armor (because, again, who cares about planets?) but in combat robots that are designed to function as space fighters as well as ground attack units.

You can see how this would be something of a problem for 40k. Their equivalent to an imperial guardsmen is what is, essentially, a warhound titan that can FLY and doubles as a space-fighter. And they throw these guys at problems in human wave tactics, because thats the standard in Zentradi vs Zentradi conflict. And as a result of usually fighting things their own size, all of their weapons are going to be overkill as far as human sized targets and vehicles are concerned.

>>96354267
>Between the Fall of the Eldar and the Horus Heresy, warp travel was usually safe and calm.
*Relatively* safe and calm. You keep forgetting a word. That's okay, I'll keep correcting you.
>That's how the Imperium conquered the galaxy in barely 200 years.
Actually, the biggest reason why warp travel was so much safer for the early Imperium than ever before in history was the Astronomicon the Emperor built, which provided a super-reliable point of reference for Navigators to use to find their way. But I don't expect a no-lores faggot like you to know that.
>This is not headcanon, it's stated multiple times in 40k/HH books.
You're mixing up completely separate ideas and confusing yourself. First you were trying to talk about pre-Imperial warp travel, now you're talking about Great Crusade warp travel and the Fall of the Eldar banishing most of the warp storms that had plagued the galaxy during the Age of Strife, conflating entirely separate time periods to try and salvage a headcanon you've already had ripped to shreds.
>It was even faster during the peak of the Dark Age of Technology, with even humanity using Startgate-style warp gates for ships
No. If you're talking about the warp gates used by the Araneus Continuity, those were built by xenos. Xenos that returned to punish them for borrowing technology that wasn't theirs.
>They share a lot of similarities,
There are almost zero similarities between Hyperspace and the Warp except that they are both alternate dimensions. Beyond that, they have nothing really in common.
>In unknow territory, they both are reduced to short jumps to map their destination.
As soon as Star Wars has mapped a hyperspace lane, it's mapped forever and safe to travel on. Warp corridors are constantly shifting, and even the 'safe' routes are not safe, but merely more reliable than trying to blaze an uncharted path through the Warp.

>>96353596
>moving the goalposts
lol, fucking retard doesn't understand the difference between a glob of mercury and the Warp but wants to pretend they're the same thing

>>96353637
>I'm talking about the current state of the war, dumbass. It's dangerous now, but it can be as calm, or as impassable as needed.
The current state of the Warp is constantly changing. It's the one thing that is universal about the Warp.
>If it wasn't calm at times, no ships would be able to sail.
No you fucking retarded lorelet, the whole reason Navigators are necessary because the Warp is never calm. They literally navigate the ship around constantly changing currents and eddies of Warp tides that can crush a ship, Gellar field and all, or completely turn it around and send it elsewhere, or even push it into a different era of history. It is because these tides are so ubiquitous and universal that you need Navigators to be constantly adjusting the trajectory of a ship, or in the worst case scenario, forcing an emergency shift to Realspace to avoid certain death. This is true no matter where in the Warp you go.
>No, these drives are simply incompatible with Navigators at all.
You don't use the shitty computers unless you have no other choice. The Navigators are your most reliable option. Void Abacuses are not superior to a skilled Navigator in any way, shape, or form. The books are very clear about that.
>Anon above already explained it to you in definitive terms, retard. Screech more or don't.
No, he's just as retarded as you are.
>Yeah, who would have thought that "people" receiving hyper-profits from monopoly on ship travel would lie about it. THAT's canon.
The Emperor himself acknowledged the Navigators were vitally important to warp travel. They're so important, in fact, he built the Astronomicon to assist them. They're not lying about this.
>And vessels can survive even there.
Going through a warp storm is one of the most dangerous things a ship can do. You act like it's perfectly safe.
>I suggest you kill yourself unironically, imbecile. Warhammer isn't for everyone.
lol, retarded faggot

>>96354858
>The Emperor himself acknowledged the Navigators were vitally important to warp travel. They're so important, in fact, he built the Astronomicon to assist them. They're not lying about this.
Yeah, while it's not wrong they will monopolize it, it is true they are necessary for Warp Travel. Many of the other alternatives are usually riskier. While a Space Marine can do it if they are a psyker, they are way less suited for the job.
This is not getting to the fact that the existence of Navigators is what Jaghatai uses as Proof that the Imperial Truth is a lie.

>>96353685
>Will be forced to do it. Same case as Astropaths. "I don't want to" DO IT.
Navigators can't be forced to do anything. They work because they have agreed to work in exchange for a tithe to be paid to their guild, but they are not subservient to ship captains or even Imperial Guard generals. The Guilds have near infinite power because they're literally the only thing that holds the Imperium together and they can doom entire sectors, entire Imperial Guard fleets by simply going on strike. If you threaten a Navigator, they'll simply blacklist you and your ship forever. Only the highest ranks of the Imperium can get away with it, namely Inquisitors and Space Marines.
>Does occasionally happen if you are a lowly one instead of one that uses other coping mechanism
They can also go insane from gazing into the Warp for too long, or simply suffer physical health consequences from doing their jobs and die.
>Only happens if you managed to be unlucky, attracted someone or decided to warp that is unstable.
Or if someone on your ship is of particular interest to Chaos, or if daemons simply decide to destroy you because they're hungry.
>Only happens if you pick unstable warp jumps or just unlucky.
It is incredible how far you're willing to delude yourself that warp travel is safe.

>>96353685
Oh, and regarding the rite of refueling a warp drive, from Star of Damocles:
> The contents of each coffin-shaped casket was evidently hazardous in the extreme, for Lucian could see, even from the gallery on which he and Korvane stood, the flesh of each bearer slowly cooking, sloughing from his face to reveal muscle and bone beneath.
>As the procession wound its course across the curved deck below, Lucian watched the tech-adepts of his own crew as mey worked upon the many dials and levers mounted around the base of the great column at the centre of the chamber. Lucian knew that the tech-priests would have prepared long and hard for their task, for it was the most perilous operation a vessel could undertake, including, Lucian mused, actual combat. The consequences of a mishap were scarcely worth considering, and would cost Lucian and his crew far more than their ship and their lives.
>At the last, the bearers of the lead casket lifted their burden high upon arms almost bare of flesh. The casket was pushed forward into a gaping socket in the side of the column, the door of which swung wide as the Oceanid's tech-priests pulled levers and voiced their prayers to the Machine God. With one, final heave, the bearers pushed their casket into the waiting maw, the frost encrusting it vaporising in a cloud of mist as it was slid home.
>With a crash, the door swung shut. The bearers collapsed, each lead robe almost entirely empty. With an obscene, sucking noise, the cables attached to the remains of each corpse tightened, before snaking back to the airlock, the small attendant gathering up the remains of each bearer, before turning back for the airlock.
> 'Emperor preserve us,' Lucian heard Korvane mutter, and turned to see that his son had developed a severe and quite spontaneous nosebleed. He touched his hand to his own nose, unsurprised to see blood upon his palm as he pulled it away.

>>96354858
>drooling lorelet doubles down after being told
Lol, lmao.
>The current state of the Warp is constantly changing.
Yeah, sometimes becoming calm and sometimes not. Thanks for playing yourself, subhuman.
> the whole reason Navigators are necessary because
Artifacts are rare and few.
>Void Abacuses are not superior to a skilled Navigator in any way, shape, or form. The books are very clear about that.
Yeah, to the point navigators are trying to suppress even their entire existance out of fear of obsolescence. Got it.
>No
Yes, imbecile. You repeatably got told and refuse to admit you're subhumanly retarded.
>The Emperor himself acknowledged the Navigators were
Cheap and available. Compared to rare technology. Meanwhile they were merely means to an end until he got his subspace built around the warp, which means they meant to plug holes for a few millenia tops.
>Going through a warp storm is one of the most dangerous things a ship can do.
And yet survivable. Despite all your crying.
>lol
Lol, kill yourself, retard. I mean it.

>>96354976
>citing BL
Lol. Lmao. He just keeps digging himself with headcanon.

>>96355105
>b..but 40k tanks are powered by the souls of children who were abandoned in the street! they're so dark and brooding!!!

>>96354963
>Navigators can't be forced to do anything
You just literally said Space Marines can do that and they are not that high on the totem pole.
Also, a Navigator could never blacklist you, the paternova is the only one with authority and they could blacklist the navigator or even their own house instead. They can't "I don't wanna" out of it because their mere action represents their house. Even their protection has limits.
>They can also go insane from gazing into the Warp for too long, or simply suffer physical health consequences from doing their jobs and die.
Ironically, this is basically why forcing a Navigator is a bad idea. Same case with the Astrophatic choir, they die for the same case
>Or if someone on your ship is of particular interest to Chaos, or if daemons simply decide to destroy you because they're hungry.
For that to happen, it requires a more unstable Warp Route as that could help them weaken the geller field. Or, in worst case scenario, someone sabotages the geller field, like it happened to those infected with that gellerpox virus since it's not infallible(like a certaint Golden man)
>It is incredible how far you're willing to delude yourself that warp travel is safe.
I never said that. I said Warp Travel isn't this picture 99%. Every book about 40k doesn't goes "oh we got 200 years late" every second. At best it's like rolling a d10 and hoping you don't get 1-3, and the chances of that happening increase with distance, and how the warp moods is. And if you do, you then have to roll a d6, praying you don't get a 1-2. Cuz everything else would cause damage but not get your ship irredemeably fucked with no chance of retaliation.

>>96355061
I mean, him citing a book kinda proves me wrong on the casket part even though I really don't remember that even being mentioned on every other book.

>>96340081 (OP)
>40k fans always act like they don’t
Maybe because...they don't? 40k warp travel moves through time as well as space, it's entirely possible for a fleet to arrive somewhere before they left. It's mostly consistently predictable, but not infallibly.

>>96355333
Well, that happens when the Warp's fucky-wucky actually benefits you.
Warp travel is roll to travel and if you get a 20, it goes "you got to the place you wanted before the threat came in."
If you get a 1, you get "welp, cliche but goodbye to your ship. And yourselves."

>>96354777
>uppity SWfag
oh, you're one of those retards
> a super-reliable point of reference for Navigators
DaoT humanity had warp beacons over the galaxy. Even the Imperium still builds them when they can.
>You're mixing up completely separate ideas
No, you're a disingenous faggot trying to confound the issue because it doesn't fit the narrative you want to set. Like all faggot fanboys in VS. debates
There's the very canon fact of Humanity having a warp-based pan-galactic civilization for 10,000 years BEFORE the Age of Strife
>If you're talking about the warp gates used by the Araneus Continuity
I'm not, wikifag. Do your own homework
>zero similarities between Hyperspace and the Warp
>mapped a hyperspace lane, it's mapped forever and safe to travel on.
Retard alert! You clearly know nothing about either beyond shallow takes. Like the influence of realspace objects in both, and what happens when they change.

>>96355260
>You just literally said Space Marines can do that and they are not that high on the totem pole.
In what world are The Emperor's Holy Angels of Death not high on the totem pole?
>Also, a Navigator could never blacklist you, the paternova is the only one with authority
Guess what happens when you mistreat a Navigator. You think the House isn't going to find out?
>They can't "I don't wanna" out of it because their mere action represents their house.
Oh they absolutely can. They are more than happy to abuse their immense influence for personal depravity, as well as stand by their brethren for doing the same. The Imperium considers them depraved scum for good reason, and it's not just because they're mutants.
>For that to happen, it requires a more unstable Warp Route as that could help them weaken the geller field.
Incorrect. In Watchers of the Throne, a Sister of Silence's ship comes under targeted daemonic assault every time they enter the Warp, and the gellar field cannot hold out against the pressure. They were traveling a stable warp route to Terra the entire time, but the route gave them no protection against the Immaterium's denizens. The same happens in the novel Farseer, which is ancient fluff, and Guilliman upon his resurrection is so frequently hit by daemonic assaults while trying to reach Terra that eventually he has to give up on warp travel entirely and use the Webway instead.
>I never said that.
You called warp travel safe. It is the entirety of your argument that the technology is safe. Clearly it isn't. I hate that I had to pull teeth to get you to acknowledge that, but I'll take the W.

>>96355422
>warp travel is le random
no is not, you navel gazing loretuber cocksucker
Warp ships in 40k travel the warp for literally thousands of years of service.
You're a retard parroting memeshit

>>96356082
>comes under targeted daemonic assault every time they enter the Warp
because it happened during the opening of the Great Rift, and with the fucking Chaos Gods targetting them, you lying dipshit

Funny how you forget to mention that the Indomitus Crusade forces under Guilliman were able to have super fast and safe travel because the Emperor was helping them.

>>96355034
>Yeah, sometimes becoming calm and sometimes not.
Nope. There are no calm periods or areas. There is only Chaos ever since the War in Heaven.
>Artifacts are rare and few.
Those artifacts are more dangerous and unreliable than using Navigators. How many times do I remind you, dumbfuck?
>Yeah, to the point navigators are trying to suppress even their entire existance out of fear of obsolescence. Got it.
Because there are RTs desperate enough to use unreliable archaeotech over paying the price a Navigator House demands for their services, yes. It doesn't make the choice a wise one. There's a reason they're lost artifacts rather than preserved tech: it's because all the RTs who use them don't survive for long.
>Yes, imbecile.
No matter how many times you try to play semantics, you'll never make warp travel safe, secondary. The entire point of it is that it's perhaps the least safe and reliable FTL method imaginable. That was the whole concept from its inception.
>Cheap and available.
Cheap and available is not why he would bother to create the Astronomicon, the opposite of cheap and available. He had void abacus tech, in fact he was probably the one who invented it, yet he still didn't use it on his personal flagship. Wonder why?
>Meanwhile they were merely means to an end until he got his subspace built around the warp,
They were the only way the Great Crusade could succeed, much like his alliance with the Mechanicum.
>And yet survivable. Despite all your crying.
At immense risk, with high odds of death even with the best Navigator money can buy, yes. There's a good reason why the Emperor didn't launch the Great Crusade until after the majority of warp storms in the galaxy were wiped out.
>Lol, kill yourself, retard. I mean it.
I feel bad for you. I mean, being a lorelet is one thing. But basing your whole identity around a setting you don't even know? That's wild.

>>96354963
>Navigators can't be forced to do anything.
Another retarded hot take from a lorelet. In reality they're indentured slaves for life with few exceptions. They're SOLD by their families as part of deals when they're not forced at gunpoint or worse (like in CSM ships)

>>96355061
I accept your concession.

>>96356165
>There are no calm periods or areas. There is only Chaos ever since the War in Heaven.
100% factually false.
You sound like the delusiona chaosfag shill that infects /40kg/ with his drivel

>>96340081 (OP)
Because star wars is fucking gay.

>>96356068
>DaoT humanity had warp beacons over the galaxy. Even the Imperium still builds them when they can.
I don't think you know enough about 40k lore to be fighting SW fanboys on the internet if you think this is true, my guy. The beacons you're talking about were actually Pharoses, built by the Necrons. Humanity didn't build them, they simply made use of them just like Guilliman tried to do after the Ruinstorm hit his empire.
>No, you're a disingenous faggot trying to confound the issue because it doesn't fit the narrative you want to set.
Dude, you started by talking about pre-Age of Strife humanity easily warp traveling, then pivoted to talking about the Great Crusade when you got called out on that BS. That's how I know you're trying to leverage a genuinely pathetic knowledge of 40k lore into some kind of personal identity, which is frankly hilarious.
>There's the very canon fact of Humanity having a warp-based pan-galactic civilization for 10,000 years BEFORE the Age of Strife
The Human Federation of which you speak suffered from extremely restricted warp travel between colonies, because of the fact that warp travel was so unreliable and dangerous. This is why they invented STCs to provide all the technological and scientific necessities for colonists once they reached their destination, because odds were they would never see another ship from Terra for centuries at a time. Worsened by the fact they didn't have Astropaths to maintain communication, either.
>I'm not, wikifag. Do your own homework
So you don't have a source, in other words? Classic lorelet.
>Like the influence of realspace objects in both, and what happens when they change.
It's very odd that you're trying to equate the exceptionally rare instance that a hyperspace lane changes in SW with the rather common problem in 40k of warp lanes shifting over time. In SW, a hyperspace lane getting cut off by a star going nova or other causes is so rare as to be a major historical event.

>>96356127
>because it happened during the opening of the Great Rift, and with the fucking Chaos Gods targetting them, you lying dipshit
Nice to see you don't even read my posts.
>also in the novel Farseer
It's something that can happen at any time, anywhere. Generally more common in warp storms or when a powerful daemon has a vendetta against someone on the crew, but the core point remains unchanged, which is that daemons in sufficient strength can and will smash through gellar fields.
>Funny how you forget to mention that the Indomitus Crusade forces under Guilliman were able to have super fast and safe travel because the Emperor was helping them.
Again, 'relatively' fast and safe.
>>96356100
I don't think you even read the lore. At this point you might as well throw out the entire preamble of the codexes and books as well, the part where it talks about "There is only war."

>>96356189
>100% factually false.
You could just read a 40k book, you know. The constant, chaotic flux of the Warp being basically the underlying cause of half the problems that ever happen, from daemonic invasions to Astartes getting corrupted by said daemons. The difficulty of a Navigator's work is directly tied to this issue as well.

>>96356100
Nigga I don't watch loretubers, they exagerate shit.
The Warp literally is traveling on something that genuinely doesn't give a shit about time. Samus himself was born after the Siege of Terra and that mf was appearing before the Heresy was even plotted.

>>96356167
>Another retarded hot take from a lorelet. In reality they're indentured slaves for life with few exceptions.
No? You seem to have some serious misconceptions. A Navigator would have to be practically disowned by their own House for mistreatment of them to be simply ignored. They're quite protective of their own, for obvious reasons. The inordinate power of the Navigator Houses is a major aspect of the lore, and no, the majority of them are not slaves. The majority of them live in opulent luxury worthy of planetary governors.

>>96356295
Yeah, there's literally a codex that Abaddon meets his past self prior to meeting a Dæmon just to decieve the latter by giving the former it's real name.
The same thing happens in Black Legion novel where Saronos takes Ashur-Kai Qezremah as part of the deal to escape the Eye of Terror properly, and then it's revealed Saronos is Ashur-kai from the future.
Idk why I got accused of saying the Warp is safe with all this

>>96356329
I only get my warhammer lore from pancreasnowork so

>>96356411
>Grievious Glazer
Genndy had him fucked.

>>96356419
I feel like they did that because Lucasfilm realized there was a miscommunication on the kind of character grevious was meant to be.
I dont think Lucas intended them to be some powerful terminator, Genndy just went all out due to doing action and wanted to deliver on the kind of action that isnt easy to depict in live action. My first impression of Grevious was that they were kinda just an aging cyborg guy who led the army as well, a general. I was surprised they even had a fight w/ Obi-Wan. Genndy meanwhile had them be more like some super assassin.

>>96357151
They wanted some cyborg monster for obi wan to fight and wanted to make them important to kill so they made them a general but then also an underling with no real authority. And Star Wars is a huge franchise with multiple studios doing multiple projects at any given time so they have lots of cooks in the kitchen, it is not surprising the characterization of even some clone wars era antagonist like grevious is depicted differently by different people. It is part of where getting canonicity on something is hard since someone who wants to hype clone troopers can go point at 2003 Clone Wars ARC Troopers and say "look at that!" while someone else can go point out the movies where they're canon fodder because their role in the given story changed. The story matters more than power scaling. Like I would hope one of the takeaways from the sequel trilogy for anyone who wants to write was that you can go make up some super death star that blows up half a galaxy but if the story is boring or nonsensical, no one will care.

>>96355260
>I mean, him citing a book
Citing a BL book proves absolutely nothing, considering it's fanfiction that changes with every author.
>>96356165
>Nope.
Yep. No matter how you try to ignore facts.
>Because there are RTs desperate enough to use unreliable archaeotech over paying the price a Navigator House demands for their services, yes.
It's not unreliable. That's the whole point.
And they're lost artifacts because it's DAOT tech, you imbecile, from before RT era.
>No matter how many times you try to play semantics, you'll never
be able to disprove safe warp routes or stable time periods. Keep crying.
>Cheap and available is not why he would bother to create the Astronomicon, the opposite of cheap and available.
Because Navigators were unreliable without it. Building one beacon for everyone is quantifiably cheaper, but of course, you're too dumb to understand that.
>He had void abacus tech, in fact he was probably the one who invented it
Enough with the headcanon, subhuman.
>They were the only way the Great Crusade could succeed, much like his alliance with the Mechanicum.
Neither sentence is true, actually. They were simply better options at the time. Again showing your lorelet.
>At immense risk, with high odds of death even with the best Navigator money can buy, yes.
I accept your concession.
>I feel bad for you.
You should feel bad for yourself, if you get btwo by someone who supposedly doesnt' even know the setting on the regular.

>>96357467
Anom, a BL book is the reason why Deathwing is painted all bone white in the codex.

>>96341148
Glup shitto solos every other fanbase

>>96357681
A short story actually.

>>96357708
Fuck I forgot Deathwing is part of like an anthology.
Tbf it's still the first 40k BL book afaik

>>96357718
Well technically I guess. But that very early, and as a matter of fact, that story is no longer canon, you know? They aren't space injuns anymore.

Novels that came later only get progressively dumber. Accepting them all as canon is accepting that marines use multilasers and demons can possess untouchables.

>>96357742
>demons can possess untouchables.
Don't remind me of Nemesis. Such a dull novel.

>>96354320
Phasers aren't plasma but some disrupters are. Phasers are completely scifi molecular distengration weapons. The 40k equivalent is the necron Gauss Flayer.

>>96355105
Why do you think they're so desperate for those lost STCs? The imperium have and always been just dumpster diving from the scraps of a better age

>>96355105
>>96355245
The damage stardestroyer.net has done to arguing about stuff on the internet is immeasurable.

Though at least you aren't freeze framing cinematics to calculate their basic rifles are nuclear bomb-tier.

>>96357825
Sounds like google+ powerscaling communities like vsbattles all over again. Trust me, I know.

>>96354133
in the inquisitor cycle they often take a 6 months to a year just to hop from one planet to the next

>>96358079
Well that contradicts RT RPG, at least. Afaik, it takes you a whole year to cross the galaxy from one end to the other straight.

>>96358126
You would have to ask Abnett where he gets his warp travel times from.

>>96353236
can you get higher quality image?
I camt read it

>>96351062
Warhammer fags complaining about primaris is a single drop in the ocean compared to the murder rape nuke that disney dropped on the entire star wars franchise

>>96354089
Black Library would need to invent new bullshit archeotech to pull out of their ass to give Holy Terra a way out of a Zentradi invasion of Sol.

Otherwise the entire Zentradi fleet just teleports into Earth orbit, bypassing all of the other defenses in Sol, and can bombard the planet immediately. Holy Terra goes from perfectly fine with clear skies to a glassy wasteland in under a minute, most of the defenses don't even have time to fire a shot before its over.

>>96359505
No, but I can find the original posts.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/49187332/#49199048

Most of the play-by-play is for fun, the important part is the final analysis at the end. The Imperium loses even if they have broadly better tech (that's actually questionable, I severely undersold the strength of Federation or, for that matter, Imperial weaponry), because the Empire and the Federation are willing to work with outsiders and understand their own technology; while the Imperium has xenophobia as a first resort and doesn't understand its own technology.

When you couple with Star Wars' hyperspace being strictly better at maneuvering around the galaxy, and the Star Trek's warp drive being strictly better at maneuvering at tactical speeds, you end up with the situation that the Imperium will never be able to pick when battles happen and will never be able to land decisive blows.

>>96359956
Star Trek in particular also has the advantage of having a long history of dealing with an neutralizing energy beings, negative space wedgies, psychic powers, supposed gods, other dimensions, etc.
40k can throw Warp related stuff at Star Wars and the Imperials would be completely helpless to do anything about it.. But a ship like the Enterprise has a shockingly good track record of coming up with counters to weird magical bullshit, usually on a short timeframe.

So a lot of the stuff that 40k assumes is hard to counter is just a regular episode plot for Star Trek. And the more the federation comes to understand the warp, the more dangerous that is for the Imperium.

"We have modified the main deflector dish to emit a pulse that shorts out Geller Fields" would be normal Star Trek technobabble but be absolutely catastrophic for the Imperium.

>>96360030
And TV shows like Voyager and Lower Decks even demonstrate that it's not just the Starships Enterprise that deal with godlike alien assholes and negative space wedgies. This is, in fact, *normal* in the Star Trek universe, or at least not uncommon. Random background captain of an unnamed ship we meet in just one episode? Yeah, he's probably had to play peacemaker between Loki and Coyote at some point.

>>96359956
Interesting. Actually I think, yeah, you were underselling Trek and Wars weapons tech. If you were to take a ship that isn't the Enterprise D but later and more modern, they'd also have things like slipstream drive which lets the Federation now travel to the Delta Quadrant any time they want, according to Star Trek: Prodigy. Interestingly as well, the interdiction ships from Star Wars would be quite effective on 40k warp drives too, as large gravitational wells in realspace can cause major turbulence to 40k ships if they pass by too closely in the Warp. I think also if we were to split hairs, 40k ship weapons tech is mostly mass drivers (macrocannons), with the far more powerful lances and torpedoes being far, far less common. Mass drivers can certainly do some nasty damage, but they're not at all on the same level of power as directed energy weapons like turbolasers and phaser arrays. It's the kind of primitive weapon that Picard would laugh about facing, like, "are these guys serious?" Add in the fact that 40k ships usually need at least ten minutes to reload their weapons because they have to do so via work crews dragging the next round by hand into the macrocannons or torpedo launchers, and it's very clear very quickly that 40k weaponry is extremely inefficient if compared to generally any other setting.
But in a general sense, the logistical advantage that both Star Trek and Star Wars enjoy over 40k due to actually understanding their own technology, and being able to actually build more ships in general, and not having to roll the dice every time they travel at FTL speeds, is impossible to overestimate.

>>96360068
Like someone pointed out upthread, the FTL advantage actually works out even if you scale up. Even if the Imperium's total starfleet outnumbers the Empire's total starfleet 100 to 1, the Empire can nevertheless always bring more ships and more firepower to any given battle, because hyperspace FTL is just so much faster than the Warp. The Empire very literally loses nothing by just deploying literally their entire starfleet into one place at one time, because the Imperium does not have the speed needed to capitalize on the fact that they would've left most of their territory undefended.

25,000 Imperial-II Star Destroyers suddenly appearing over Holy Terra, opening fire the moment they appear, is nothing to laugh at, especially since that's about twenty-five times more firepower than the Death Star's planetkiller.

>>96359556
This is genuinely truth. If I went into a rant about every single thing bad Disney has done to Star Wars, I would never hear the end of it

>>96360102
Trying to invade Terra seems like a nightmare, similar to the Battle of Coruscant in scale and potential for disaster. I think the Empire could just blockade the Sol system and destroy all incoming Chartist ships carrying vital cargo to sustain Terra's infinite need for resources and let the world destroy itself. Starve it for a decade if they have to, but eventually it'll just explode when the Emperor doesn't get his 1,000 psyker meal a day and the Golden Throne fails.

>>96360132
And yet, as bad as the Rise of Skywalker was, and it IS a piece of shit movie, make no mistake...

But every time I think about bad it was, or how bad some other Disney choices were, I ask myself, "but is it really worse than the Yuuzhan Vong?" And so far my answer has always been "no". And the Vong aren't even the worst part of the old EU, they're just my yardstick for judging the shit Disney's pulled.

>>96360201
>I think the Empire could just blockade the Sol system
Much easier said than done, like not fighting Russia in winter. I think the garrison in the Sol System alone would be strong enough to go toe to toe with anything less than whole star wars empire army and win

>>96354089
I always liked the Zentradi, paperclip maximizer with a biological component, they're the foot soldiers of a long dead alien empire who didn't trust them with any weapons of mass destruction. But with time and massive automated factory/shipyards they've gotten to the point where they field fleets in the millions, all armed with plasma and laser cannons and that many warships dozens of kilometers long covered in massive weapons is enough to glass any planet instantly. Oh and they're gene modded humans made into extremely resilient giants, cloned in the trillions to fight some long forgotten civil war using standardized designs hundreds of thousands of years old.

And that they're extremely surprised by nuclear weapons or the 'super dimensional energy cannon' that the aliens and later humans recovered since they're trained and indoctrinated into fighting their creator's civil war with limited weapons. I remember something about them having a standing order to destroy any enemy that uses those kinds of weapons which is why they glassed the earth instead of capturing it. Or was it about culture and music? They definitely had some kind of long standing order that changed how they dealt with the Earth.

Feel like watching it again, been 20+ years.

>>96360273
It is worst than the Yuuzhan Vong because the entirely of the Sequel trilogy is "Hurr Durr Breaking the Jedi Spirit" as if Luke didn't went against Obi-Wan and Yoda by saying "No I won't kill my dad"

>>96360068
Trek tech gets slept on a lot because they rarely give hard numbers, but from onscreen statements and depictions any heavily armed Trek vessel is capable of slagging a planet by itself.

>>96360290
You've lost a couple of details, but Its also possible you saw robotech and thus got a distorted version of the story. I know robotech is different, but not exactly by how much.

Quick rundown: the Zentradi USED to have reaction weapons (nukes) but don't anymore. Their ships are all built with launchers designed for them, but whatever production line for building reaction weapons that was supposed to supply them got blown up a million years ago. So all of their ships have the launchers, all of their commanders and soldiers are trained to know how to use them, but they don't actually HAVE any to use. But they still immediately recognize them once humanity fires nukes at the Zentradi scout fleet. Its like how they know that their ships can be repaired, but have no idea how to do it themselves and are likewise shocked by humanity having salvaged the crashed Macross.

They had a standing order from a long time ago not to attack or interfere with 'miclones', aka human sized aliens. They don't remember why, just that its against the rules. Commander Britai decides to violate those rules and attempt to capture the Macross anyway, both because it fired at them and because he really, really wants to know where we got our nukes and our repair tech. Things we know how to do, but the Zentradi do not, so if Britai's fleet can make us talk then his fleet would have a major advantage against other Zentradi and they could break the stalemate and win the war(s).

>>96360343
Except no it's not worse than the Vong, because it doesn't reach backwards through time and throttle canon. Unlike the Vong, where you get stories suggesting that Palpatine knew about the Vong and the whole Empire thing was just him getting ready for the Vong, and also so did Thrawn, and also so did Revan 3,950 years ago...

>>96360288
The garrison of Imperial Sol is indeed quite fearsome, easily surpassing any fortifications in Star Wars or Star Trek, but if all the Empire needs to do is blockade it, it's definitely doable. They can raid the system to whittle it down with the advantage of hyperspace drives being quite quick to engage and disengage. They can fight more or less as the Eldar do, jumping in, hitting a key target, and jumping back out before the Sol defense fleets can arrive in force to crush them. The Sol fleets can't be everywhere at once, and once the outer defense perimeter is compromised, blockading the system becomes a viable possibility. The biggest disadvantage of the system's defenses is that it's designed to protect Terra and Mars first and foremost, so most of the actual firepower is naturally clustered around those two worlds. Again, like the Eldar, the Empire can bait the defense fleets with feints, hyperspace jumping a few thousand ships into the heart of the system and bombing Terra briefly before jumping back out. The Custodes are likely to understand it's a distraction given their superhuman strategic acumen, but they also wouldn't be able to risk Terra's void shields failing under a sustained assault.

>>96360383

But the Zentradi are bad at trying to just capture something intact instead of blowing it up with brute force, so they keep losing because they can't commit their full strength or they don't get what they want. They decide to use spies, end up getting exposed to human culture, and it ends up poisoning Britai's fleet because this is the first time they have ever experienced anything that isn't being a disposable weapon and it turns out they LIKE the idea of not having to fight all the time and good food and entertainment and shit. So the more they learn about the humans, the less they want to blow up the humans and the more disorderly their command structure becomes.

The rest of the Zentradi faction that Britai works for declares that Culture is some kind of dangerous contamination, like a memetic virus, and that the potential benefits of the tech they could steal is not worth the risk of further contact with humanity. So they decide to wipe out humanity and all of Britai's forces as well, since they have been 'infected by culture'.

Britai and his fleet team up with mankind to try to survive together. We win space war one, but most of the Earth is wiped out in the rain of fire and only about 50,000 humans and a bunch of Zetradi defectors survive the war, and they go on to build a new civilization together that feeds into the later Macross shows.

>>96360388
Idk, the sequel trilogy establishes Palpatine literally made Anakin in the past, as opposed to the Force making Anakin because Plagueis and Palpatine's experimentations were a no-no.
That is throttling the canon by reaching backwards in time

>>96352496
>Neither of those are difficult anon, Chartists are merchant ships, lightly defended,

And what if they stop lightly defending them in response to the attacks?

>>96360102
>Empire's total starfleet 100 to 1, the Empire can nevertheless always bring more ships and more firepower to any given battle

Not if you're attacking multiple places simultaneously

>>96360201
>think the Empire could just blockade the Sol system and destroy all incoming Chartist ships carrying vital cargo to sustain Terra's infinite need for resources and let the world destroy itself

That entirely betrays their supposed hit and run tactics lol.

>>96360397
You're overthinking it. The Empire doesn't just have superiority in FTL travel, it has superiority in FTL communication and information processing. It can map out the Imperium far more effectively than the IoM can and it can coordinate itself far more effectively than the IoM can. Forget whittling away at defense perimeters with hit and run tactics, how about simultaneous assaults on Agriworlds? What good is a defense perimeter when the people manning it haven't been fed in two weeks? How do you maintain its potency when you've got to peel away vessels and manpower to disperse them across the sector to protect the food supply of trillions?

>>96360570
Immediately virus bomb the gungans to assert dominance then dispatch deathwatch kill teams to assassinate disney executives. Grand admiral prawn would immediately shit the bed with his source of plot armour removed and the war would be over.

>>96356265
> The beacons you're talking about were actually Pharoses, built by the Necrons.
Imagine posting this retardation and still larping as a 40k lorefag and pretending to be taken seriously.

First of all, the Pharos network wasn't based in the warp, nor there's any evidence that DaoT humanity knew about it, retard.
Second, not only DAoT psychic beacons have been mentioned in 40k lore, they even made one, the Choral Engine, the point of the recent Angron campaign book.
Which you clearly knew nothing about, just like you know nothing about 40k or SW beyond shallow hot takes.
>Human Federation
There was no such thing. We have no idea of the politics of the DAoT just like the rest of your headcanon bullshit is made up.
>warp vs hyperspace
you don't know that reaspace stellar bodies also affect the warp in 40k. More evidence of you being a larper
>>96356295
>>96356313
You avoid the central point of ships in 40k travelling the warp for literally thousands of years of service because it doesn't support your bullshit.
You're a disingenous bullshiter
>>96356336
More fanfiction from somebody that hasn't read books with Navigators

>>96360570
This is all based in the idea of hyperspace and the Warp being different things and existing in both universes, which is highly debatable.
>protect the food supply of trillions
Lol, this is 40k. That has already happened a few times in the Imperium history. The answer is that they let people starve and riot while biding their time for reinforcements.

>>96361292
>the Empire can simply starve out the Imperium by targeting the planets vital for food supply due to its extensive overspecialization
>lol the Imperium doesn't need food to function

>>96361623
the Empire cannot do shit to the Imperium logistics, and these scenarios of all ISDs magically teleporting around are fucking retarded fanboyism. Do you think key 40k worlds are left unprotected? The GE couldn't even fully secure a smaller section of their own galaxy against much weaker enemies that the Imperium. And it only lasted a few decades.

ISDs are also very lightweight ships by 40k standards, similar to a Cobra class destroyer with additional starfighters. And nobody is scared of Cobras in 40k.

What happens of the Imperium decides to visit Corruscant?
What about 40k teleportation tech and boarding parties that imperials cannot hope to defeat?
What about imperial psykers being a lot stronger in battle that the single digits force users?
What about the AdMech and their toys?
The list goes on and on.

I love SW, but it's retarded to pretend that 40k is not in a different scale, just like The Culture or the Xeele are stronger than 40k

>>96353236
I remember that bullshit.
>>96359956
And even in the same threat star fags got reminded that their vessels aren't worth a damn.

Star Trek does have retarded shenanigans, but there's nothing Star Wars can actually throw at Imperial Cruiser to stop it.
Small Craft? Flak Turrets.
And that's assuming the carrier won't be immediately obliterated upon first contact.

>>96361819
The Xeele on on something. Those guys eat Star Systems for breakfast

>>96361819
>Do you think key 40k worlds are left unprotected?
No, I just don’t think they can defend against a foe that can transport ships across the galaxy in a matter of, at most, days. From the Outer Rim to the Deep Core is a journey of like a week on the outside with an x1 hyperdrive, two with the standard x2 hyperdrive of a Star Destroyer. Traipsing through the Core can be done in a matter of hours.

Conversely even with a completely calm Warp, a similar journey from the outer edges of the Milky Way to the core could take years. So, yes, from the perspective of the Inperium, the Star Destroyers of the Empire ARE magically teleporting.

(And this is setting aside that in Star Wars, ships can come out of hyperspace right on top of planets, whereas 40K ships must exit near a system’s periphery and slowly make their way insystem at sublight speeds)

>The GE couldn't even fully secure a smaller section of their own galaxy against much weaker enemies
Yes, but it’s precisely because they ran afoul of more or less this very tactic. The Rebellion was focused on a highly mobile startighter corps and hit-and-run tactics. In the old EU canon when Thrawn popped up he used more or less the same tactics against the New Republic and it worked too. Strategic maneuverability is often THE deciding factor of wars.

>What happens of the Imperium decides to visit Corruscant?
It takes them years to possibly decades to find it, and then years to possibly decades to get there, while in the meantime the Imperium loses the war overall so it doesn’t matter. Also the Imperium fleet exits at the system’s periphery, giving the Empire time to both call for reinforcements (which can arrive in just a few hours to at most a few days if called in from other Core worlds) and evacuate important personnel if necessary.

>What about 40k teleportation
What’s the range?

>What about imperial psykers
How often are they used in fleet battles? This is a battle of starfleets, not ground troops

>>96361929
>but there's nothing Star Wars can actually throw at Imperial Cruiser to stop it.
Star Wars turbolasers can crack planets down to the mantle. That puts them at parity with most standard 40K weaponry, with the caveat that they can fire a lot faster.

>>96362318
Yeah, strong enough to destroy an stray asteroid probably.

Every 40K weapon can crack a planet to the mantle if they fire at it for long enough.
40k has it's own laser macrocannons too, btw.
The armour plating of capital vessels is all but invulnerable to that.
But then there're lances.

>>96340081 (OP)
big army beat small army says sun tzu. empire is heavily outnumbered and their tech is more or less equivalent. therefore they lose.

>>96342029
cause 40k is dogshit fiction which no one seems to accept.
>itz so le brootal
and then every story is rife with edgelord bullshit, cheesy tropes, plot armor, fucktarded power scaling, inconsistency in writing, nothing significant ever happening, memes written into the books, and nauseating numbers of “epic” badass speeches from musclehulk #50000. 40k is pure slop and now that the tabletop is shit theres nothing worth saving from it.

>>96362292
>a foe that can transport ships across the galaxy in a matter of, at most, days
In the SW galaxy, not in the 40k galaxy without mapping it first. And assuming that hyperdrives even work in the 40k galaxy. Or that it isn't the same as the warp. Those are fanboy assumptions.
>even with a completely calm Warp, a similar journey from the outer edges of the Milky Way to the core could take years
Nope, it took months. Even less for Chaos marines favoured by the Gods.
>It takes them years to possibly decades to find it
it only takes reading the mind of a prisoner that knows the way.
And "decades" is a lot in SW, but a blink in 40k
>giving the Empire time to both call for reinforcements
what reinforcements if they're busy defending other systems from the Imperium?
If you handwave the political realities of the GE, I can do the same for the Imperium. Except that the Imperium already did it in canon with the Indomitus Crusade fleets thanks to Gulliman authority.
You don't really get the scale of the logistics of the Imperium.
>This is a battle of starfleets, not ground troops
In SW, sure. In 40k, boarding actions are routine.
Lets see a ISD stop not only teleportation attacks, but also trying to stop boarding torpedoes that WILL go through their shields.
And space marines are not the only ones capable of this, btw. Imperial Navy breachers of the Admech also do it.

>>96362318
BDZ fanboy bullshit that magically only happens in tertiallry sources at best. The legacy of that lying shill called Curtis Saxton and stardestroyer.net fanboys.
Meanwhile in real SW battles in the movies, turbolasers are little better than IRL guns. Every time.

And again. ISDs are the backbone and mainstay of the GE fleets, while in 40k terms they're little better than picket ships. And only because their TIE fighter wings and land troops

>96362541
it took a while, but finally the shills behind this thread showed their true face, again

>>96360495
Then the Empire can hit the places no longer defended by those warships they moved to running convoy defense duty. Just like the Drukhari do.
>>96360553
>That entirely betrays their supposed hit and run tactics lol.
They only need hit and run tactics to weaken Terra's outer defenses enough to establish the blockade. It's not that complicated. They can even jump in the moment Chartist ships arrive and hit them there. Or they can trace the Chartist ships back to the depot planet they collect their cargo shipments from and destroy that depot instead.

>>96362576
nigga I don’t care about some crusade against 40k I just don’t like it.

>>96361243
>First of all, the Pharos network wasn't based in the warp
You really need to stop getting all your lore from youtube and the wiki. The Pharos was the Necron beacon that Guilliman activated to create a substitute Astronomicon for his Imperium Secundus. Pharoses do create massive warp signatures.
>Second, not only DAoT psychic beacons have been mentioned in 40k lore, they even made one, the Choral Engine,
I'm amazed you managed to find something in all your wiki diving, lol. Too bad we know for a fact the Astronomicon was superior to all previous warp beacons. The Great Crusade was the period that warp travel was at its safest and quickest thanks to the Astronomicon providing a better landmark in the Warp than any time ever in history. The Emperor is a genius beyond geniuses.
>There was no such thing.
Man, you are really out of date, huh. Try reading some books sometime. The Human Federation was the name of the empire of humanity prior to the Age of Strife.
>you don't know that reaspace stellar bodies also affect the warp in 40k.
??? You were the one who claimed that in the first place, I never even said that. I've been explaining that warp routes change over time for several posts now, not because of realspace, but because of the Warp itself being unstable and constantly changing. Why are you now arguing against yourself? Are you legitimately retarded, or just schizo?

>>96361292
>This is all based in the idea of hyperspace and the Warp being different things and existing in both universes, which is highly debatable.
This is such a retarded point. If you're just going to say they don't exist in each other's universes, both empires fail and no war even happens. If you're saying they're the same thing, which they aren't, then Star Wars has perfect control over it and 40k has almost zero control over it and loses the war.

>>96362589
SW ships do not know the routes and hazards of the 40k galaxy
There's no guarantee that Hyperspace works the same.
The SW ships are weaker than 40k ships
They will never get a chance to run away if they're fired upon.
"Terra's outer defenses" start at Pluto.

>>96362594
Who is asking you to like it?

>>96362576
It's predictable, really

>>96362630
>If you're saying they're the same thing, which they aren't, then Star Wars has perfect control over it and 40k has almost zero control over it and loses the war.
Lol. If they are the same thing, then SW ships are utterly fucked the instant they try to enter it in 40k's Milky Way.
You don't know what a Geller field is, do you?
Conversely, 40k would find themselves traveling without issue in SW, besides maybe the lack of known reference points for their Navigators.

>>96361243
>You avoid the central point of ships in 40k travelling the warp for literally thousands of years of service because it doesn't support your bullshit.
That... doesn't actually prove anything? It just means most ships in the Imperium are dusty old relics, which has always been the case. It doesn't express the rate of attrition to the Imperial fleets, but we know for sure the Imperium is running out of ships because the shipyards on Mars and other Forge Worlds can't produce them fast enough to replace the losses across the Imperium.
>More fanfiction from somebody that hasn't read books with Navigators
Weird that someone so out of touch with the actual lore is so confident about it.

>>96362631
>SW ships do not know the routes and hazards of the 40k galaxy
They don't need to? Hyperspace isn't the Warp. The only hazards to SW ships is gravity wells, and those aren't that hard to map.
>There's no guarantee that Hyperspace works the same.
Then there's no guarantee the Warp works the same. All 40k ships blow up the instant they try to enter the Warp. GG no re.
>The SW ships are weaker than 40k ships
Direct power comparisons are hard, but SW ships don't have to reload their macrocannons by hand for hours between volleys, so SW sweeps through sheer volume of fire, easy.
>They will never get a chance to run away if they're fired upon.
Lol, 40k ships have to line up for broadsides. They're absolutely never going to hit a star destroyer.
>"Terra's outer defenses" start at Pluto.
Terra's outer defenses start at the Oort cloud you stupid faggot. Jesus Christ, the dumbest motherfuckers on the internet fanboy over 40k without even knowing the damn lore.
>>96362665
>Lol. If they are the same thing, then SW ships are utterly fucked the instant they try to enter it in 40k's Milky Way.
Nope. If Hyperpspace and the Warp are the same dimension, then that just proves SW has zero problems with hyperspace travel, so the Warp is harmless to their technology. Thanks for conceding.

>>96362620
The Pharos being seen in the warp was a side effect and not its main function for the Necrons.
You are trying to deflect about being wrong about these 2 points:
1.The Pharos being used by the DAoT
2.The DAoT using their own psychic beacons to travel the warp safely for 10,000 years before the Age of Strife
>we know for a fact the Astronomicon was superior to all previous warp beacons.
No, we don't because we don't know anything about the DAoT except that their civilization was much safer and stronger than the imperium until it fell apart.
>The Human Federation was the name of the empire of humanity prior to the Age of Strife.
bullshit fanfiction
>I've been explaining
>muh schizo
you've been trying to confound the issue because you don't like the correct answers.
You're a liar and a shill, a subhuman that makes the world worse by your disgusting existence.

>>96362666
>we know for sure the Imperium is running out of ships
No, we don't. That's fanfiction bullshit.
The imperium makes new ships all the time when they want, and they did for the Indomitus Crusade. The attrition comes from the endless battles, not from warp travel itself
> the actual lore
you don't know or care about it, shill

>>96362721
>The Pharos being seen in the warp was a side effect and not its main function for the Necrons.
Irrelevant. You claimed it has no effect on the warp, you're wrong and again proving yourself an illiterate retard pretending to like 40k.
>1.The Pharos being used by the DAoT
Yes.
>2.The DAoT using their own psychic beacons to travel the warp safely for 10,000 years before the Age of Strife
I'll admit you found one example of such a thing. Congratulations. However, the Pharos network was already in use by DAoT humanity as warp beacons, the tech adepts studying the Pharos device in the novel Pharos figured that out.
>No, we don't because we don't know anything about the DAoT
Read the novels. We know there was a Human Federation along with several xenos empires that were considered major threats to it. We also know what the Men of Gold were (an 'improvement' upon humanity meant to replace mankind; the Emperor destroyed them), Men of Iron were (they even have minis now), and the Men of Stone (now known as the Leagues of Votann). STCs have appeared more than once, and it turns out they were actually AI tech printers that were deployed with colonists to cover all their technological needs due to a lack of support from Terra because warp travel was so unreliable and dangerous.
>bullshit fanfiction
Read the damn novels. Jesus.
>you've been trying to confound the issue because you don't like the correct answers.
Every single post I tear you to shreds, why are you even still bothering to reply at this point? You've gotten one singular actual thing correct, you are wrong about everything else. Your central premise is outright contradicting the fundamental lore about warp travel, you want it to be safe, but 40k specifically emphasizes how unsafe it is.
>You're a liar and a shill, a subhuman that makes the world worse by your disgusting existence.
lol, you haven't even consumed primary sources on 40k lore, I bet you only ever watch youtube shorts about it

>>96362697
>They don't need to?
So you don't know that in SW the hyperspace routes needs to be mapped in advance? And you dare talk about it here? holy shit
>Direct power comparisons are hard
yes, they are when your big capital ships are little more than escorts and picket ships in 40k
>reload their macrocannons by hand for hours between volleys
>40k ships have to line up for broadsides
>. They're absolutely never going to hit a star destroyer.
Not only you know jack shit about 40k ships, you've never seen a SW movie, lol
>If Hyperpspace and the Warp are the same dimension, then that just proves SW has zero problems with hyperspace travel
No, it would prove that in the SW galaxy the Inmaterium is calm and not corrupted into Chaos like in 40k. Which doesn't apply once they enter the Milky Way.
>Terra's outer defenses start at the Oort cloud
>Thanks for conceding.
You finally outed yourself again, shill. Kys parasite

>>96362738
>No, we don't. That's fanfiction bullshit.
Other than Battlefleet Gothic talking about how it takes centuries to build a single battleship from scratch, so losing a single ship is an almost irreplaceable loss?
>The imperium makes new ships all the time when they want, and they did for the Indomitus Crusade.
Actually they mostly pulled fleets away from defending the Segmentum Pacificus, which turned out poorly when the 4th Tyrannic War began because the whole segmentum is borderline defenseless now.
>you don't know or care about it, shill
Apparently I both know and care more about 40k than you do, since you can't even be bothered to read primary source books for basic lore.

>>96362770
>The Pharos being used by the DAoT
Wrong. You have no source of that. It never happened
> We know there was a Human Federation
Wrong. You have no source of that. It never happened. There's no history or names of the human civilization of that era
>warp travel, you want it to be safe, but 40k specifically emphasizes how unsafe it is.
Being dangerous is not the same as not being reliable. Again: Ships in 40k routinely travel for centuries or thousands of years of service.
You're trying to confound the issue playing with semantics.

Doubling down in your retarded patronizing and posturing doesn't work, shill

>>96362786
>So you don't know that in SW the hyperspace routes needs to be mapped in advance?
You said hazards unique to the 40k universe. But SW doesn't travel through the warp, so why would they need to know about warp hazards? Everything in realspace isn't unique to 40k, Star Wars has stars and planets and black holes as well. Even void storms.
>yes, they are when your big capital ships are little more than escorts and picket ships in 40k
Size matters very little in an engagement of spaceships. What matters is firepower and defense, and we have no exact measurements of energy output to work from. We can only estimate. However, what we do know is that directed energy weapons vastly overpower mass drivers in the amount of energy they fire from simple physics.
>Not only you know jack shit about 40k ships, you've never seen a SW movie, lol
Apparently you haven't even watched Angels of Death, the easiest way to see 40k ships in action. Guess what they show? Work crews reloading macrocannons by hand, and strike cruisers being both A) slow to maneuver and B) having to wait until the Drukhari ship actually enters broadside angles to fire. 40k is legitimately cooked in almost any engagement with any other sci-fi franchise, except extremely low power settings like Alien and Avatar.
>No, it would prove that in the SW galaxy the Inmaterium is calm and not corrupted into Chaos like in 40k. Which doesn't apply once they enter the Milky Way.
Nope, if they're the same dimension then SW has perfect tech that removes all threats from the Warp. The Warp is omnidimensional and disturbed throughout all of the universe because of the War in Heaven.
>You finally outed yourself again, shill. Kys parasite
My man doesn't even know that the Sol system's Oort cloud was conquered by the Dark Angels Legion and turned into a bunch of defense stations and outposts to be the first line of its defenses? And you call me a shill and a parasite? Lol

>>96362844
>The Warp is omnidimensional and disturbed throughout all of the universe because of the War in Heaven.
So you ARE the delusional chaosfag spamming 40kg with your drivel fanfiction, lmao

>>96362831
>Wrong. You have no source of that. It never happened
The novel named Pharos, like I said in my last post.
>Wrong. You have no source of that. It never happened. There's no history or names of the human civilization of that era
I already said where the information comes from. You can feel free to stick your fingers in your ears and whine all you want, but you can't change the lore.
>Being dangerous is not the same as not being reliable.
If it's reliable, that means it is trustworthy and there's not a great deal of danger in its use.
>You're trying to confound the issue playing with semantics.
But that's literally what you just did. You just tried to imply safe and reliable aren't related terms when it comes to technology. If it is dangerous and unpredictable, then it clearly isn't reliable.
>Doubling down in your retarded patronizing and posturing doesn't work, shill
At this point I think you could have finished reading Horus Rising if you had spent the amount of time debating me (and losing) on expanding your knowledge of the 40k universe instead.

>>96362549
>it only takes reading the mind of a prisoner that knows the way.

Doesn’t work. Most people in the galaxy can’t by-memory chart a course to Coruscant (and certainly not your average Imperial soldier), they only know it’s in the Core, which is still a region of space tens of thousands of light years across. Asteogation computers do the actual calculations.

>And assuming that hyperdrives even work in the 40k galaxy. Or that it isn't the same as the warp. Those are fanboy assumptions.
40K itself has multiple FTL methods that don’t involve the warp, as was pointed out upthread, so 40K is already canonically friendly to at least the idea of hyperspace functioning normally.

If anything it’s more likely that in this crossover scenario, the Warp (and other 40K FTL methods) don’t work, since there is no FTL method in Star Wars besides hyperspace. Even the Yuuzhan Vong in the old EU used it, they just called it something different.

>if they're busy defending other systems from the Imperium?
Are they, though? Again; the Empire has considerable advantage in strategic maneuverability thanks to a vastly superior FTL system. This is much more likely to be the Imperium defending against the Empire as a result, as the Empire can explore the Milky Way, map out hyperspace routes, and start launching meaningful attacks faster than the Imperium can do the same to the Galaxy Far Far Away.

>>96362844
>So you don't know that in SW the hyperspace routes needs to be mapped in advance?
Answer the question instead of deflecting with nonsense, shill
>Size matters very little in an engagement of spaceships
mass does not matter in space battles? Holy shit, you're retarded
>What matters is firepower and defense
Of which 40k ships have in spades
> Angels of Death, the easiest way to see 40k ships in action
More retardation. 40k is not SW. Movies and animation are the least important canon, if you can even call those that
>muh broadsides
Not only SW ships are shown doing the same all the time, but 40k ships also fight long range battles often. You're lying.
> if they're the same dimension then SW has perfect tech that removes all threats from the Warp
No, if they were the same, the SW galaxy would be full of daemons. It's not, so they would not know what awaits them in 40k. Retard.
>muh Oort cloud
you cling to that to avoid the point that SW ships would never get past Terra's outer defences.
That also is irrelevant because that's not even the actual entry to the Sol system in 40k. You don't know it, of course

>>96362885
>Hyperspace is not the same as the Warp, and it would work in 40k
>if it was, it would work like in SW for the GE in 40k, but not the other way around
pure SW fanboyism

As if mapping new routes in SW was common. And not everybody using the same ones since millenia ago.

>>96362844
>40k is legitimately cooked in almost any engagement with any other sci-fi franchise, except extremely low power settings like Alien and Avatar.
you're trying too hard and showing your hand

>>96362902
>mass does not matter in space battles?
Not necessarily, no. The NCC-1701 Enterprise outmasses the NX-74205 Defiant, but I know where the smart money is in a showdown between the two.

>>96362925
As I understand it, the Warp isn’t exactly point-and-click either, otherwise all 14 Black Crusades would’ve just targeted Holy Terra and only Holy Terra.

I’m just saying that if we’re questioning whether or not hyperspace works in 40K, the setting itself says “maybe” since it already has multiple non-Warp FTL methods.

>>96362965
The Federation design ethos makes their ships to not be build or look like warships on purpose. They carry a lot of empty space inside.
The Defiant being a notorius exception, and only of the few that had strong bulkheads everywhere like other races.
ST weapons are usually overkill for their mass.
>>96362984
Yes. Both the Warp and Hyperspace rely on practice in mapped routes to travel fast in both universes. "Secret routes" are also a thing in both.
SW travel is way faster in well know routes, of course. But uncharted territory necessitates special effort and is slow in both.

>>96362984
No, the black crusades didn't target terra directly because they could reach it
They didn't target terra because they would lose against a a full strength Sol Sector garrison that will recieve an insane amount of reinforcement. The black crusades were meant to strengthen the forces of chaos and weaken the imperium not to simply make way for the fleets to reach Terra.

>I’m just saying that if we’re questioning whether or not hyperspace works in 40K,

Regardless of if it works or not, the hyperspace lanes would need to be mapped and their capabilities would be limited by these lanes. Star wars FTL also has its limits.

>>96353140
>You don't get polymorph an entire settings tech tree just to make it fit your demands. In a crossover, each settings tech has to work by default the same way that it would in their own universes, otherwise you are just making shit up. Hyperspace isn't the warp. Star Trek warp drives are not the warp, despite having the name 'warp' in it. Demanding otherwise is an admission of defeat because you think your setting can only compete if you change the rules for the other side to make you have a home field advantage.
But... but... my dad can beat up your dad so there!!!!
All arguments about power scaling in crossovers come down to that level of argument. It's all BS. Connecting unrelated franchises is always stupid, and demeans both sides (unless done extremely carefully, which means virtually never, especially in fandom).

>>96363031
But having laid out a route, hyperspace is much faster.

So say that this is, I dunno, the Milky Way and the Galaxy Far Far Away somehow passing near each other. Like within 25,000 ly of each other. About the distance from Sol to the Canis Major overdensity, and about 2/3 the distance from Sol to the Milky Way’s core.

The Empire finds a way to, I dunno, let’s call it Callix, a system at the edge of the Carina-Sagittarius Arm. The Imperium finds a way to Endor, a system in a roughly equivalent area of space and lack of importance in the GFFA.

Having found Callix, the Empire can reliably travel to and from it in a matter of days to weeks. Having found Endor, the Imperium can travel to and from it over the course of months or years - warp permitting.

So the Empire is going to be exploring the Milky Way a lot faster than the Imperium is exploring the Galaxy Far Far Away.

>>96362637
the guy who’s saying I’m part of a secret anti-40k brigade apparently. Which aint even true I run plenty of games in the 40k setting. the writing is one of the game’s low points. Theres a shitton of books and only a handful are decent. And that handful is still slop writing.

>>96362589
>Then the Empire can hit the places no longer defended by those warships they moved to running convoy defense duty. Just like the Drukhari do.

That's just operating on the assumption that the garrisons are being reduced enough to matter. Star wars and 40k ships aren't 1:1 hell a star destroyer is roughly the same size of and the same capabilities of the smallest ships of the line in the Imperium of man.

>They can even jump in the moment Chartist ships arrive and hit them there.

How would they know when the chartists are arriving? Unless suddenly the empire has a whole network of psykers eithin their navy they would have no way of detecting warp travel.

>Or they can trace the Chartist ships back to the depot planet they collect their cargo shipments from and destroy that depot instead.

Why would the depot be entirely undefined? Also again they have no way of observing how ships move through the warp so how would they be able to figure out their comings and goings?

>>96363102
>The Empire finds a way to, I dunno, let’s call it Callix, a system at the edge of the Carina-Sagittarius Arm. The Imperium finds a way to Endor, a system in a roughly equivalent area of space and lack of importance in the GFFA.

>Having found Callix, the Empire can reliably travel to and from it in a matter of days to weeks. Having found Endor, the Imperium can travel to and from it over the course of months or years - warp permitting.

Right but that relies on the assumption that there is a direct lane in the first place. The warp doesn't have this requirement. You can get anywhere you need to go given the weather is agreeable at that time which it is more often then not.

It's like traveling via a river versus via the ocean. Yeah going around a land mass is going to take longer, is riskier, and your ability to do so is dependent on the weather conditions, but if there isn't a river in the first place the point is moot.

>>96363143
>the smallest ships of the line in the Imperium of man.
The smallest ships of the line in the Imperium can, with one shot, crack open a planet’s crust down to its mantle?

‘Cause that’s canon now. Didn’t used to be, but if we’re talking modern Disney-era Star Wars, it’s canon.

>>96363143
>Why would the depot be entirely undefined?
It isn’t, necessarily, but what is it defended by?

>swarms and disables your archeotech cruiser
Can the Empire of Man defeat the humble buzz droid?

>>96363041
That and even if they took Terra, the neighbouring sustems would take what remains of them.
This is why Horus made sure he had enough supplies plus he had all of Mars on his side, before he did the push to Terra.
Of course, he hurried it because he was on a time-limit.

>>96363202
>The smallest ships of the line in the Imperium can, with one shot, crack open a planet’s crust down to its mantle?

Yes, any cobra destroyer can use and carry cyclonic torpedoes

>>96363212
Hundreds of thousands of garrisoned soldiers, void shields, forts as large as hive cities, ground based anti ship weapons like macro batteries. Depending on the system and planet it might have it's own small defense fleet of destroyers and frigates.

>>96363304
Not exactly the standard weapon for ship to ship battle, are those?

>>96363346
All the ground stuff is irrelevant since the Empire is raising and destroying, not occupying. But tell me more about the composition of this small defense fleet.

>>96363198
So how long would it take them to actually get to Coruscant, then? As in, map out a route to it. Like I said, no one does astrogation by hand from memory, so all a psyker is going to get is “it’s a Core World”, which still gives them an area some ten or twenty thousand lightyears across to search.

>>96363385
>Not exactly the standard weapon for ship to ship battle, are those?

Well I mean you certainly can use them like any other torpedo I guess, It would be way overkill though, a regular torpedo does just fine at that.

>All the ground stuff is irrelevant since the Empire is raising and destroying, not occupying. But tell me more about the composition of this small defense fleet.

Well the orbital defense weapons and void shields aren't irrelevant, ship scale weapons in 40k have much further ranges than star wars ones after all. It's pretty hard to raze a planet when all its important bits are behind shields, and if episode 5 is anything go off of ISDs struggle against such defenses even in a scenario where they're more focused on destroying the enemy utterly instead of capturing territory.

The defensive fleets aren't standardized in anyway so they're mostly going to be dependent on the importance of whatever they're protecting and local resources available. They're also locally run and thus aren't technically part of the imperial navy. Outside of major systems that have things like forgeworlds, major naval bases like cadia, space marine chapter homeworlds, or Terra, you're not going to see ships larger than escorts (so just frigates/destroyers) and they typically won't have warp drives seeing as they aren't meant to leave the system. There's no real numbers available to look at for the maximum amount of ships on a typical fleet but, assuming they'll be smaller than any given sector battlefleet it's safe to say <75.

As far as I can tell the ships they use are essentially just imperial frigates and destroyers with the warp drives taken out, and then smaller vessels meant for policing and anti-piracy.

>>96363391
>As in, map out a route to it. Like I said, no one does astrogation by hand from memory, so all a psyker is going to get is “it’s a Core World”, which still gives them an area some ten or twenty thousand lightyears across to search.

To find the path? Fast enough to not be an issue. Finding where you want go is the easy part about warp travel and there's examples of navigators doing it a few hours. And even then that's taking the safe option, navigators can find the way to any given system at the drop of a hat in an emergency.

>>96359956
thank you man appreciate

>>96340081 (OP)
>>96340081 (OP)
These "debates" are always lame and retarded. But as a nigga who knows shit about Star Wars. The way hyperspace works is that it has to actually be mapped out. The big hyperlanes in Star Wars were meticulously crafted to be as fast as they are over thousands of years navigation. Building hyperlanes is an extremely long, expensive, and potentially dangerous project