Thread 96355580

Previous thread: >>96349385

Legacies: https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/

>HH 3.0 - Complete gofile - All Books:
https://gofile.io/d/cnJk0N

>New Edition, to a great wailing and gnashing of teeth
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/setting/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Thread FAQ (very old, remembers Age of Terra)
https://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
https://pastebin.com/8riDmnhS
>30k TACTICA & TIPS
https://pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Age_of_Darkness-Warhammer_30k/2.0_Tactics/General_Tactics

『Adeptus Titanicus and Legions Imperialis』
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/legions-imperialis/
>List of Titan Legions with Badges and Colours
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>More lists
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Titan_Legions
>What size magnets do I need?
5x1mm
>Tactics
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Adeptus_Titanicus/Tactics

>Thread Question:
Any big hobby plans? With pics?

Where is our horus heresy game bwos...

What a shitty OP

>>96355580 (OP)
OP pic should be Mejiro McQueen Vs Tokai Teio desu

>>96355646
You should kys immediately desu

>>96355652
hm
nyo

>>96355580 (OP)
More batch priming, I think my compressor is dying unfortunately. I bought cheap because my good one died. Maybe I need a mid tier. At least I magnetized the bikes. I have two games this week.

>>96355580 (OP)
Man where the fuck is forges of Saturn, I want to know whether I can glue flamers on my saturnine fists or not

Ligma will live!

Why would traitors want to display an icon of an eagle fighting a snake atop their own flags? Isn't that kind of admitting that you're evil and fighting on the wrong side of history?

>>96355709
The snake is the lies of the false emperor?

>>96355580 (OP)
Gotta prime this WS command squad but the weather has gone real wet here for the week.

>>96355703
Real, mine are still on sprue.

>>96355709
Serpent Lodge fighting against the False Emperor

>>96355705
I love this picture. I’m pretty well sunk into IH, but man do I love WE.

>>96355709
Revolutionaries have definitely never identified with snakes before

>>96355725
>power kanabo
Yeah I’m thinking based

>>96355725
>3d printed bodies
>still using those terrible lightning claws
Why tho

>>96355580 (OP)
>Pic
I do enjoy how they made sure we knew Ferrus was absolutely mopping the floor with Fulgrim and only lost because he was trying to get him to surrender and realize he was wrong

>>96355709
Emps is the true snake, he's a worse liar than the snake in the catheric bible. Horus and the space marine legions are the true heirs of the Imperium, it is them that fought and bled to build it and now Emps puts pencil pushers and eraser counters as heads of the crusade? He is a tyrant.

>>96355725
Got a source on all those bits? Ace stuff.

>>96355709
>why would you make yourself the bad guy by killing the noble eagle?

>>96355754
That’s why he was weak. If he had smashed that sashaying fruit then and there a lot of misery could have been avoided.

>>96355709
> icon of an eagle fighting a snake
canonically that was the icon of House Devine from Molech, corrupted by Fulgrim and linked to the EC/SoH.

But besides appearing as interior art since the Black Books, I'd say is the kind of thing the Alpha Legion would love to use. Layered irony, hidden meaning, etc

So I'm reading this summary right, uf I take a Praetor, I could also take an Apex Detachment with a Retinue consisting of a corresponding Terminator Command Squad with a Prime Benefit of Paragon of Battle to have a melee blob on steroids? If I add a Biomancy librarian, this shit becomes nigh unkillable, holy fuck.

>>96355747
Gotta blend in with the locals, some of my mk6 tac srgs have them as well.

>>96355759
All the bits from command squad sprue and 3d prints from Coffee_Sipper on cults. He releases his files every saturday to hide from "them"

>>96355709
Officially, Horus is overthrowing the Emperor because he's evil/corrupt/what other bullshit excuse.

But just like any other civil war/coup, they're not trying to destroy the imperium itself, just change the guy at the top (even if the imperium gets almost destroyed in the process, thats just collateral damage).

>>96355794
IIRC, to be more specific, the Devine icon shown here is actually their pre-betrayal one. After they used a version with the snake winning per the Vengeful Spirit novel. That sounds to me like the one in the kit.

>>96355557

Yeah, I miss the old dirt cheap photon gauntlet option. Currently I'm strongly leaning towards just handing every magos who doesn't have Pinning in his squad a grav-gun for statuses and every magos who does have pinning a meltagun.
I haven't been taking Machinators, might start doing that for my Archmagos Lacrymaerta because I believe he can heal himself as well as his friends, and if he's spending one battlesmith action to make thralls he may as well get a second one for tanks/bots.

>>96355621
is this dolphin porn?

>>96355709
The snake has always represented Horus. The Eye of Horus is a reptilian eye, his armor is called the SERPENT'S SCALES, there's the serpent lodge, etc

>>96355798
Paragon of battle can only go on a command slot. But you can still use combat veterans for +1LD characteristics or master sergeant to get your sergeant/champion model a little better

>>96355820
I don't like the extra joint the plastic cerastus kits have. It makes the arm look more flimsy.

>>96355869
At least change it to auger

>>96355869
>m.jpg
Dumb horseposter

>>96355849
Ah indeed, rules mention a single model.

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between power fists and TH this edition? From I've seen online, it seems one is not strictly better than the other?

Aside from the kraken bolter, what's the best way to differentiate Seekers from everyone else?

>>96355709
they're mexican

>>96355926
PF hits harder, but TH goes before PF

>>96355703
couldn't you just count them as particle shredders anyway? I was considering doing something similar with grav shredders on these for my IH.

>>96355944
Camoflagued armor. Pimped out transport.

>>96355944
Capes, scopes on eyes, white chain link decals on armor,

>>96355926

Hammer swings 1i faster (model's int -2 rather than -3) but is +3 rather than +4 strength. The hammer is going to be better for fighting other heavy infantry, which is why everyone's covering their terminators in the things, power fist is better for cracking vehicles/combat automata/primarchs/presumably big demons but we don't have rules for them yet.

Chainfist is -3i, -1 attack, +6 strength and treats glances as pens, so it's awful for termie fighting but one of the few things that can actually trouble AV14, although even an archmagos with a chainfist hitting at S12 isn't going to be soloing a Land Raider.

>>96355957
>>96355980
Thanks lads. Can't be arsed to remake some Power fists Termies so I'll probably keep the TH on my dudes.

>>96355838
It's Matikanetannhauser!

>>96356032
so horse porn then

>>96355926
There's literally zero reason to ever buy a powerfist in 3rd edition if there's ever an option to take thunderhammer or chainfist.

An absolutely oversized 10man elite terminator unit swinging with 30 powerfist attacks trying to scratch AV14
Average hull points lost was 1.91, 0% kill rate in 10,000 simulated fights.

20 chainfist attacks, Average hull points lost was 16.66, 96% killrate.

How about 5 thunderhammers + 5 chainfists? Average hull points lost was 8.35, The 10-wound kratos/spartan tank was destroyed 4110 out of 10000 rounds. (41.1%)

7 thunders + 3 chainfists? Average hull points lost was 5.03, (5.13% full kill chance) Just 3 of 10 being chainfists still did 250% the damage of 10 powerfists. And the 7 thunderhammer + 3 chainfist unit wins 100% of the time when they fight the 10 powerfist unit, because the 7 thunderhammers all strike before powerfists and massacre the fistfags instantly since they still wound on 2+ with dmg2, they just all strike first.

And if some 30 IQ faggot says "but what about punching rhinos with powerfists", if they're AV10 rear rhinos, then the 7 thunderhammers + 3 chainfists instantly murder the rhino 100% of the time since the 3x chains already kill a rhino 99.95% of the time and the 21 thunderhammer attacks then add 17.5 more hull points from 21 thunderhammers hitting the rhino so essentially it's impossible a light tank survives. So taking thunderhammer+chainfist is always the replacement for pfist trash. If you expect to face more soft targets, you take a higher ratio of hammers. If you expect to kill baneblades, spartans, kratos and stuff, then you increase the ratio of chainfists. But never any pfist.

>>96356115
Bless you math autists for doing the legwork. Appreciate the advice.

>>96355738
Snakes are the fucking primordial evil, anon. It's unironically like having a Rat's Anus as a flag. You know, like Chaos :^)

>>96355764
Ah yes, Stalin the good guy xdd

>>96355580 (OP)
Umas would be abhumans seconded to the Imperial army, not the Astertes.

>>96356129
he's a statistician, not a mathematician

if he was a mathematician he'd know he was wrong

>>96356032
Mambooo
>>96356115
Can you compare terminators vs Contemptors? I want at least one scenario when power fists have a use.
Would chainfists be so oppressive if they didn't give up an attack?

>>96356197
>Ogryn, but they are Uma models
Gimme

>>96356129
np. Melta bombs are also great as well for the legacy units that can spam them, for example 10 deathsworn wolves can have them for +50 points or pay +50 for useless fist upgrades. The melta bombs deal 11.21 hull on average to a spartan vs the less-than-2 of the fists, and they keep the power-axes which strike before powerfists in melee and are vastly superior against 1-wound tactical marines where fists dmg2 is pure overkill.

>>96355869
>My meme was saved!
Happy!
>They have terrible taste
Sad!

>>96356197
They'd make good close-quarters fodder.

>>96356225
I don't mix my tabletop hobbies with my waifus, but I'd buy chernobylite umas to paint up and display on my shelf.

>>96356211
contemptors are WS4... so, you don't even need to crunch the numbers, a unit of WS5 terminators with 7 thunderhammers + 3 chainfists absolutely buttfucks the contemptor every single time.

Jesus what a shit thread

>>96356323
:^)

>>96356211
mara ghal is probably closest to making a contemptor stand any chance.

Attacking mara gal dreadnought WS5 vs WS5, dread strikes first and 0.83 slip through saves to kill 1 terminator expected.
Each terminator averages:
1.5 hits from thammer, 0.75 wounds, 0.5 wounds avg at initiative 2
1.5 hits from pfist, 1.00 wounds, 0.66 wounds avg at initiative 1
1 hit from chainfist, 0.83 wounds, 0.55 wounds avg at initiative 1
So 9 surviving fists deals 6 of the 7 wounds to mara. 3 cfist+6hammer deals most often 5 of the wounds to the mara instead of 6. Next turn mara kills a 2nd terminator then dies to either terminator squad.

So you give up the ability to kill other terminator squads or other light infantry or heavy tanks, to get nearly the exact same outcome against an enemy word bearer super-dreadnought. (and if it was a WS4 contemptor it'd deal 0 wounds average then have died on turn 1 to either squad)

Who does /hhg/ hate MORE:
>uma musume anons
>female primarchs anons?

>>96356115
Damn, sad Deliverer noises. No hammers, but can take either first or dual ravens talons. Guess giving one a MM was the way to go and they will hunt big things and scoring.

>>96356389
I love both.

>>96356389
At least femprimarch anons stay on topic

>>96356351
Hmm I think power fists do more damage than chainfists against Contemptors on the account of not giving up one attack. And can still work against vehicles with weak rears, but anything above AV12 (bigger than Sicaran's), that's Chainfist territory

>>96356347
>Ultramarines at Calth

>>96356389
Me

>>96356389
Primaris

>>96355580 (OP)
>TQ
Had the event for 2.0 at the weekend (lost 3, Won 1 but my list was fun) so now thats done, I can focus on painting shit I actually want to

Finished this ligma thunderhawk today

>>96356399
multimeltas suck balls in 3rd edition. It has 8" range and is only S8 unless you're stationary (and deepstriking counts as moving)

You're far scarier to tanks by taking like 6-7 talons and 3-4 chainfists. Something like kratos has to sprint away from 3-4 chainfists or get killed. It can ignore 1 multimelta and just laugh (even 10 multimelta squads without stationary don't reliably murder AV14)

>>96356389
What's with the inverted grip on the solar aux pistols?

>>96356522
multimeltas are meh anti-armor but are amazing at murdering any multi-wound infantry/walkers
especially those gold fucks

Hi anons. I have a bunch of thousand sons bits. But I am a newfag, and not sure about my painting skills. I am certain they will look like shit. Should I make the switch to another legion and sell my TS stuff?

>>96356532
Shhh, don't tell her that Mechanicus mostly send them surplus faulty stuff they don't want to use.

>>96355705
This is literally the only "marines vs auxilia" picture that artist has ever drawn that didn't immediately trigger my lore autism.

>>96355754
Doesn't Ferrus usually lose to fulgrim on the tabletop?

>>96356546
COLLECT ULTRAMARINES!!!!!

>>96356522
Well, it's already modeled and fully painted so it stays. I could do a 4-6 split of fist to talon. Though I refuse to use a Spartan.

>>96356522
>>96356115
Chainfists aren't exactly that incredible either, anons.
Your normal terminators get 1 (one) chainfist attack each, and even at str 10 armourbane, your 1 attack still only has a 50/50 chance to do 2 damage, so you're averaging less than 1hp per chainfist terminator against a kratos and the like.
That means a 10 man terminator squad with ALL chainfists would be fairly lucky to even kill a kratos in one turn, and their damage output against everything else is garbage.

>>96356546
Learn by painting anon. Start with the basic stuff like tacticals and only then tackle the more detailed stuff. Look up tutoirals. Worst case scenario you can laways strip them and start over

>>96356673
Sometimes I wish I did.
I love my IW but sometimes I wish I also had a Loyalist force, but I really don't want to buy all the same kits again...

>>96356546
practice makes perfect anon. Never be afraid to try, you'll only learn more and get better.

For that matter, even putting in the effort at all, evne if you are starting out fresh, puts you ahead of like 60% of the playerbase.

So no, if you want to do tsons, do tsons.

>>96356682
That's bait, well guised but repeated for the last 4 threads.

>>96356197
>ogryn are giant super strong retards
>ratlings are midget super snipers.

Why don't the imperial army have more abhuman regiments? Or at least abhuman units attached to regiments. They seem pretty useful ngl.

Is it seriously just space racism?

>>96356679
chainfists go on 3A terminators, not 2A ones. So your entire argument is literally nothing.

>>96356679
it is surprising you're too retarded to even read the thread where the exact odds of killing a kratos are given... yet that's the post you replied to.

>>96356702
>taking retinue terminators.

For what purpose?

>>96356351
>one dread cant fight 500pts of terminators

>>96356720
everyone look at this anon who is so retarded he thinks WS4 2-attack terminators are mandatory and WS5 3-attack terminators don't have a purpose. Laugh at him!

>>96356700
>Is it seriously just space racism?
Yes. That and GW can't be bothered to make models for the lesser know strains like Longshanks.

>>96356702
>>96356719
bruh, the post is talking about a literal 10 man squad of retinue terminators all/mostly taking chainfists.

If you are arguing that its a good idea to gimp your damage output by a third, against all the targets you would ACTUALLY want your WS5 terminators fighting, as opposed to chasing a non-WS tank with your deathstar unit, then uh, have fun as soon as they walk into another comparable unit and get steamrolled due to lower number of attacks at a lower init as they get hammered to death.

>>96356748
still too retarded to read, I see. Please keep embarrassing yourself. I know reading more than one single sentence is hard for you.

>>96356700
Ratlings and ogryns have specialized roles useful to the regular army. Most other abhumans are just humans with funny bits (for example 40k beastmen) and the like, so they're used as meat shield armies and you're supposed to kitbash them yourself since they'll probably never get their own minis.

>>96356759
Ok you're just retarded, thats fine anon.

>>96356772
This brain damaged baby isn't even intelligent enough to come up with even one insult after he was too stupid to read a single sentence... children these days.

>>96356730
>spend 150 ppm on a terminator squad that kills MEQs good.

Or

>spend 270 points on a retinue terminator squad who's only meaningfully better at killing the aforementioned weaker terminators but is nearly twice as expensive and dies to all the same ranged weapons.

>>96356782
you are too lazy to actually write anything, but original anon said 5 chainfists and 5 hammers doesn't even have a 50% chance to kill a kratos, assuming they haven't already lost models.

I dunno why you're smug posting as though these number are good, when its a 500+ pt unit, plus expensive transport, with a lower than coinflip odds of killing a 300pt tank in perfect conditions

>>96356764
Beast memes are better in melee than regular humans but worse at range because their long distance vision is garbage.

Squats are tougher than regular humans and far less bothered by violence or death owing to their fight and fight reflex.

Felinids are irrelevant because they all come from one shitty planet that doesn't matter lol.

>>96356805

So... the cheapest way to Delete a Kratos is still to yeet 10 Vet Breachers with 4 Lascutters from a Rhino at it?

>>96356730
retinue terminators have a purpose. But yea, theyre by no means "must take" or normal terminators but better.
Theyre expensive, trait-less (no vanguard/line) retinue that is going to be what, 50ppm kitted out? And what you get for that extra cost is just greater ability for facemashing enemy elites and terminators.

Regular terminators are (relatively) cheap, very durable vs small arms, come with built in scoring (vanguard) and will very comfortably beat anything that isnt a specialized and kitted out melee elite (ws5 thunder hammers or the like). Theyre also heavy assault, which is a slot you can get without needing to burn either a prime slot or an apex detachment.

There are jobs for terminators beyond fighting other terminators, fighting other terminators is one of the least effective and valuable things your terminators could be doing most of the time.

>>96356840
Im going to guess vindicator laser destroyers or rapier laser destroyers. Those seem like basically the best AT marines have.

>>96356840
Lascutters are significantly better than chainfists at the same job, despite the other anon's rantings.
Double the damage, higher chance to pen, and you get to shoot it before charging in as well.
So its hands down better than normal termies with chainfists, and better than WS5/3 attack termies with chainfists against vehicles, but obviously worse against non vehicle targets.

But yeah, much cheaper squad, cheaper transport, so its better at the dedicated role than the 900+pt deathstar anon is talking about.

>>96356636
Nah, Ferrus would absolutely rape Fulgrim. Brutal hammers still utterly dominate primarch vs primarch fights. Fulgrim can only deal 1 wound when Ferrus fails a save, but Ferrus has dmg3 + 1 for finishing blow + 1 for critical hit, and every single hit from him is a crit against fulgrim skipping wound phase and has a 50% chance fulgrim fails and eats 3 wounds (so fulgrim has to fail 2 saves to die, ferrus has to fail 6.)

Fulgrim is only S6 and flat sword, so if he wins challenge advantage to get his +2A from swordsman rule and using Flurry of Blows +2 attacks and +1A from advantage, he still lands 7.3 of 11 attacks, S6 vs T7 drops him to 2.44 wounds dealt, then 4++ takes that to 1.2 wounds. So he on average deals 1 wound to Ferrus. Ferrus swings and on average Fulgrim fails 1 save from the 6 attacks, but then suffers 3 damage from it and is half dead.

Most likely outcome Fulgrim dies on round 2 while Ferrus has 4/6 wounds remaining.

>>96356805

I did not realise that thing was so damn cheap. That's moderately terrifying, I thought it cost at least as much as a Spartan.

>>96356840

Theoretically, nine or ten meltabombs does it, barely, which would suggest a reasonable performance from an Allied/Forge Lord Thallax squad designed to run at tanks and stick bombs on them. 225 for nine Thallax with the bombs, +10pts with the Ld8 sarge.

>>96356857

I think 10 Vet Breachers with 4 Lascutters in a Rhino rolls in somewhere around the 330-340 point mark? Plus they aren't that bad against generic Terminators either since they're WS5 and four of them are packing Str12 AP2 weapons that do 4 damage.

>>96356847
Also, because this was a bit of a tangent: chainfists are the LAST weapon you want on your terminator command squad, especially in any sort of number, because the odds of you having to kill a tank in melee (or having that chance) are rather low, while the cost to your ability to kill other terminators/melee elites (the thing that terminator command squads want to be doing and the thing theyre supposed to be good at) is far too big. A chainfist command squad will get utterly dumpstered by a thunder hammer command squad, it will put out 2/3 of the damage it should be doing into basically every target OTHER than AV14 tanks and maybe dreads. It is not worth it.

Are Emperor's Children elf coded?

>>96356878

Simarillion Era jerkwad Elf maybe. Even then it's kind of a stretch.

>>96356840
he just pops the rhino on turn 1 since he has stable move and shoot with 24" guaranteed melta rhino-killing and then you have wasted 315 points to not even ding the paintjob on his 365 point tank and your breachers with just 4 lascutters and chainswords get killed any every unit in the enemy's army.

There's no way to get a rhino to drive within range of a kratos for lascutting as he can just put his roadblock units and your rhino has to stop and can't drive that turn since shooting phase happens after movement is ended. (And the rhino never makes it to turn 2, so a single turn of roadblock is all he needs)

>>96356878
Why is the face on the loincloth like that?

>>96356840
>So... the cheapest way to Delete a Kratos is still to yeet 10 Vet Breachers with 4 Lascutters from a Rhino at it?
Have you tried three vindicators? Maybe four if you want the fucker REALLY dead. The marines have a specialized big target killer (several even), using them for the job isnt shameful.

>>96356888
Could maybe deepstrike them in? A drop pod or a termite would do it.

>>96356871
Yeah, vet breachers are genuinely a really strong unit.
WS5 is such a brokenly powerful advantage, they happily smash them up (no hammers is a fairly big drawback though).
Defensively they get the funny T5 against shooting, and heavy type makes them harder to status, although it also makes geting anywhere/charging without a transport much harder but hey... 60pt rhino vs 240pt landraider/400pt spartan is a bargin, so over all 100% they're great for their cost.

>>96356840
You make it snapfire with venators. Or you infiltrate a 10 man headhunter KT with meltabombs and laugh at the mental image of 10 guys just covering the entire thing in meltabombs

>>96356888
rhino can just drive through infantry, so your option to road block the tank killer unit is to block it with enough tanks that it can't drive around. Or simply ignore it and use vanguard(3) to clear out objectives.

Or like other anon said deepstrike them or fly them in with a dreadclaw or something.

>>96356888
Whats he using for a roadblock? Rhinos can drive right through infantry now anon.

>>96356894

Can you charge from Droppod or Termite? The shooting phase is unlikely to do much more than 2 or 4 points of damage. It's in close combat that the things throw out St12 4D attacks.
It's also perfectly viable to just take an ordinary unit (or a legion unique if you want, Immortals are the best ones but there's a few others out there) of 20 Breachers and give them 4 Lascutters and just... swarm up the board to him, or put them in a Spartan?

>>96356902

Still have to survive a turn within 10"ish of a Kratos, plus whatever else you're now a prime target for.

>>96356919
>Can you charge from Droppod or Termite?
No, but it does get you into lascutter range (and the kratos only moves what, 10"? so it cant really get out of charge range. Its not great, but its a better way to make them work than a rhino imo.

A storm eagle would also do well actually, fly on, disembark them, shoot, charge for your D4 S12 melee.

>>96356895
>Defensively they get the funny T5 against shooting

Sheildwall works when you're charged too don't forget. Not very useful against TEQ's with Hammers admittedly.

>>96356894
>>96356919
>>96356910
You can't charge from DS,but you CAN from aerial reserve, so dreadclaw vet breach team is a go.

>>96356924
Of whatever you're using to kill the Kratos is cheaper than the Kratos and can kill it before it gets to fire then survival is optional.

>>96356935

>You can charge if you fly OVER the earth but NOT if you go from UNDER the earth.
What is this anti-moleman bias.

>>96356934
Shieldwall doesent do much vs a lot of things, but its specifically good vs small arms fire (which is what breachers were generally bad against in previous editions, being less cost effective tactical marines vs bolter fire)

>>96356934
Hilarious for further bullying WS4 basic units though

>>96356940
The rules are kinda unhinged desu, like just over all there is these weird lack of consistant behavior that I can't quite explain.

>>96356874

You can also happily thunder hammer most weak vehicles - even fairly bulky superheavies are often rear armour 12, so you'll do a few hull points and a couple of glances, while anything rear AV11 or less is probably going to die just to weight of thunder hammer hits.

>>96356894

The main issue there, if the thing isn't bubble wrapped, is that you can't charge out of deep strike. Airdrop from an Assault Vehicle seems like it would stand a better chance, though - I'm pretty sure you can charge out of that and your Storm Eagle or Caestus Ram has a chance to come in on round 1.

This is the annoying thing about Thallax killsquads - they have both meltaguns and meltabombs plus native deep strike, but Mech have no flyers, let alone flyer transports, so they can't charge round 1 and the S8 meltas alone aren't going to do the trick. They absolutely atomise anything without AV14 all around, though, and there's something to be said for popping up, blasting a vehicle with half a dozen multimeltas and then daring the enemy to either turn around and deal with you or watch you shoot a second vehicle and charge a third,

>>96356936
You cant charge with infiltrators turn 1, so its not really optional. You need them to survive a round of shooting (at least) to do their thing.

>>96356947
>and the S8 meltas alone aren't going to do the trick
There are more targets than spartans, kratoses and land raiders. Thats actually not a significant portion of vehicles.

A kill team of thallax, whether a more restrained squad of like 3-5 or a big unit of 10, dropping in behind enemy lines to blow up a tank absolutely works. Everything from leman russes to krioses to vindicators and predators to knights to superheavies will die to that stuff. It is LITERALLY just titans and the AV14 boxes that dont get alpha struck by it.

>>96356961
Also, fun fact, you can ally in a MOD to drop them in turn 1 guaranteed. Try it if someone has an annoying baneblade or whatever you dont like.

>>96356961
The problem with this, and generally how GW has balanced AT in 3e, is you very much CAN focus on av14 bricks, and most AT does nothing useful to them.
Melta is so unreliably bad against av14, that it would quite literally be better if it just didn't have armourbane so you could at least maybe disable the tank, rather than praying for pens which won't reduce its abilities in anyway, and you won't get enough melta pens to actually kill it entirely, unless you have some overwhelming number of them.

Honestly, when it comes to av14, you either field an overwhelming amount of powerful AT, so you can viably 1 turn torch vehicles, or you just choose to ignore them entirely. There is really not much middle ground, as you're basically wasting your time if you're not blapping them.

>>96356985
>so you can viably 1 turn torch vehicles
Have you considered "killing it over several turns"?

You probably arent wiping out a terminator squad in one volley either. Thats sort of the whole point of these big durable units, they can survive punishment. The downside is that theyre expensive, big and slow. So you can just fire again next turn.

>>96356961

Thallax are 6-9 now, so 6 is the restrained size. No idea why that changed from the old 3-12, but what can you do. They're really good supplementary deep strike, absolutely, and luckily they work fine without a Reductor magos phoning in from 24" away to give them +1BS because the Reductor magi are pretty bad. I'm just sweating the AV14-killing because Marines have a metric ton of AV14 all around, they do a wide variety of different jobs and it's very possible to spam them and fill them with dangerous assault units, so you need to kill or disable some somehow. A general policy of every techpriest having a gravgun is my current best option besides meltabomb charges or allies.

>>96356981

.....Huh. Somehow I assumed that just wouldn't work due to faction rules, but I suppose Mech can cybertheurge a Marine vehicle if they want, so go wild. I might make the world's least stereotypical Death Guard MoD, then, since I was planning to do some DG allies anyway. The MoD is also some good ablative 2+ save and another meltabomb, which is nice.

>>96356991
You retard, there's no point to anything that can't one shot vehicles because all the anti-tank weapons have armorbane so if they dont kill it it's operating at full efficiency and can blas you to hell in return

>>96357010
>.....Huh. Somehow I assumed that just wouldn't work due to faction rules
Nah, its just a -1 to mental stats penalty. Which isnt great but you can survive it for a suicide drop squad.

>>96356894
we've already crunched the math in previous threads. It never works.
Your overpriced lascutter squad becomes more overpriced with deepstrike and still fails to kill kratos. Deepstrike is absent turn 1, only a maybe on turn 2, and warmonger is overpriced shit that ruins the unit very hard when it suffers even 1 wound from someone intercept shooting them, Lascutters are a pathetic dmg2 every turn they deepstrike or have to chase a tank with their pathetic 8" range (and having to be 1.1" away to DS guarantees they will never get even one stationary shot all game)

Melee is never happening for them, as that happens turn 3+ Minimum and he can always have brought a unit over to charge the breachers long before it's legal for them to charge any tanks.

A drop pod requires a large space to deploy with no enemies nearby where they can place models within 8" of the kratos, they deal tickling damage for 1 turn if they do get to deploy, then the enemy just drives kratos away, shoots half the breachers dead and has a melee squad charge point-blank and kills all the breacher squad. Budget mechanic can be included to negate all tickle lascuttere damage entirely.

4 lascutters is a pathetic 1.8 average hull done after he pops smoke and laughs at the deepstrikers. He has 10 and you are basically guaranteed to immediately lose all 305 points of the drop pod breachers trying to attack the heart of his army in easy charge distance and shoot distance of every murderous unit.

The worst thing is, when you lost 305 to lightly scratch a kratos to 8/10 HP, the lascutters don't ever inflict status, so it fights at 100% shooting and mobility afterwards.

>>96356991
Have you considered that killing half a squad of terminators makes it massively weaker?

Pens not causing any effects anymore means doing 9hp of damage to mr kratos does not reduce its damage output in any way - while a landraider/spartan will likely drop off its cargo after 1 turn of moving and have fulfilled its primary purpose.

So yes, it can potentially be a waste of time shooting it, because that means you're not shooting other shit. This is even more significant now this is a 4 turn game - wasting half the game hoping to stop 1 tank from shooting vs actually doing meaningful, guaranteed stuff to other units is a genuine decision.

In 2e I can happily shoot mr kratos/spartan over 2 turns, because even if the first turn of shooting doesn't kill it, I have good odds of incapacitating it in some meaningful/useful way, or getting a lucky explode result.

Pens being only damage means they are very much all or nothing.

>>96357011
Oh no, not the land raider firing back! Whatever will four D1 lascannons do!
No dipshit, its not "kill it in one shot or nothing". "oh no I didnt status effect the tank" so what? Did it do *something*? How terrible! Everyone knows that if a tank gets even a single shot off thats just GG right? Its why whoever goes first just always wins, since apparently the game is nothing but one shot kills.

>>96357021
we already established putting them in a flyer like a dreadclaw is the useful option, not deepstrike.

Dreadclaw means you fly on from the side of the board, shoot your lascutters, charge and melee with lascutters, all on the same turn.
You could even do this T1, but you're more limited on the table edges you can come in on.

>>96356522
And what is the range of chainfists? I mean, I'm not taking Tartaros lmao

>>96357032
while you are shooting at his av14 bricks t1 and doing nothing meaningful, he is shooting softer targets that are guaranteed to reduce your offensive output immediately, while said landraider/spartan moves at full speed and deploys their terminators into your lines/objectives, then it can just pivot and shoot full power afterwards.
Meanwhile, your damage is now lower since your opponent actually took damage off the table, so your ability to finish things off is diminished even further, while you get to choose between (trying) to finish off the 6 lascannon landraider that can now just serve as a glorified turret, or dealing with more meaningful units.

This isn't even a theoretical, we've literally seen anons talking about batresp in these threads, I've seen it in my local group, and this is basically the same thing they did to dreadnaughts going from 1e to 2e

>>96357025
>to mr kratos does not reduce its damage output in any way
That was also true in previous editions, most vehicle damage results were ignored by reinforced vehicles (or else didnt prevent them from firing at full efficiency). The benefit to doing 9HP to the kratos is that you then kill it with the 10th. So no, glances are not better than pens in literally any way, because a vehicle that cant react or cant move for a turn or snapshoots is still a vehicle that can do things, while a dead vehicle isnt.

>a spartan gets its value from moving a unit 10"
It really doesent. Or rather, if thats all a spartan or land raider does theyre not even worth killing in the first place. If they move their spartan or land raider to disembark their contents turn 1 you can just fire at the contents.

>wasting half the game hoping to stop 1 tank from shooting
"killing your worth in points over two turns" is actually a very good return on investment. Most shooting WISHES it was anywhere near that efficient.

>, I have good odds of incapacitating it in some meaningful/useful way
5/7 vehicle damage results (and all glancing hits) do nothing to it in terms of damage reduction because reinforced vehicles ignore that shit/you can fire just fine without moving, with the 6th blowing up A weapon (the one your enemy needs least). The 7th kills it (which is technically disabling it I gues).

>Pens being only damage means they are very much all or nothing.
It doesent, because the game lasts more than one round.

A kratos that snapshots for 3 out of 4 turns gets an effective 200/250% worth of shooting (snapshots halve effectiveness for non-blast weapons). A kratos that dies in two turns gets 100/200% Because it simply gets less turns to fire.

>>96356748
I'm the guy he posted that example at, and yeah I don't take a full unit of 10 terminators. Let alone 10 elite terminators.
Though I do respect he kept it believable by arming 7 of them with hammers, as fighting infantry would be their purpose, and only 3 chainfists are kept as special purpose weapons...
I am fortunate Grave Warden are not elite but still have 3A. It is a pity they still have to pay for chainfists when they already have Powerfists base, but whatever. The edition is retarded anyways.

>>96357081
>he is shooting softer targets
With what guns lmao, half his army is a spartan and terminators.
Is he going to scratch the paint on some rhino? KIll a couple of marines? Fire at an AT unit and die on return fire?

>while said landraider/spartan moves at full speed and deploys their terminators into your lines/objectives
At MAXIMUM, if this is the most committed push he can do turn 1, he is now 16"/17" up the board with the terminators (well, maybe a little bit more if hes white scars). That is not some massive threat range that will get them into the ideal position, thats "one round of jetpack/bike movement" assuming there was no terrain slowing him down along the way and he commited fully (meaning that he is now stuck with his terminators where he placed them.

And if thats all he wants out of his land raiders or spartans then they have served their purpose for him, but theyre also basically worthless at that point and he just wasted a giant chunk of points on very little.

>>96356878
Only because they're both the "better than thee" stereotype

>>96357016

Takes the Thallax down to where they were anyway, because the MoD has slightly more Ld. Also means you can skip the Thallax sarge so that's 10pts saved.

I'm pretty sure that the usual deep strike method for Thallax is "we were buried here in the earth all along", which does imply that this Master of Descent is a moleman. Maybe it does suit Death Guard after all.

A Forge Lord to bring in two squads of Thallax is looking more appealing by the day.

>>96357081
>he is shooting softer targets that are guaranteed to reduce your offensive output immediately
With what?

A spartan with ten terminators inside is 800~ pts (easily more, closer to 1000, before we get into any characters). It has the damage output of "four !lascannons and a twin lascannon" at best, maybe a pintle weapon. That firing into "softer targets" kills 2/3 marines. Its not firing into anything that shoots good because those things can just shoot back and kill it dead if it survives the initial round of shooting. Its not firing into (for example, they probably wouldnt be around to get shot) terminators because it kills like one terminator if it shoots.

What is that shooting crippling exactly? Is it killing a rhino?

>>96357042
if he truly allows you to melee him from your airplane, then that does the trick (390 points of lascutter+meltabomb+dreadclaw would one-shot the kratos on turn 2+. Though it requires him not to simply park the tank against a side of the map or terrain and then screen it with other squads preventing your 390 points from scratching his 365 until he's killed several of your tanks. And once you've killed the kratos your entire 390 points is basically guaranteed to die the second the other player's turn comes.)

Still, that would require the kratos player to actually react to that threat unlike a warmonger/deepstrike which are utterly forgettable "threats"

The main issue is, like every deepstrike/airplane support gimmick, it's illegal to play without the other guy knowing your army list before the game and what units are held in reserve, so you're always at the disadvantage of him having deployment to counter your plan, then turn 1 movements to rearrange and counter your plan, and if he goes first, then also turn 2 to move and setup screens to counter your reserves plan.

The airplane rules just seem incredibly gay bullshit so I haven't actually playtested them in 3rd edition - nobody here will be using any planes in 3rd so there's no point. Even if they were good, I'm not gonna buy a glorified $132 cardboard-token that just teleports a unit onto the board once a game then often just disappears forever, particularly not if it's just used for no purpose but to be WAAC gay shit which allows people charging out of an airplane when angels with wings aren't allowed to charge from deepstrike.

Never seen any actual humans using the shit in any games.

>>96356961
>There are more targets than spartans, kratoses and land raiders
Yeah: the AV10 rear Vindicators you brought to kill those Spartans, Keratoses and Land Raider! Hahahaha

>>96357124
>I'm pretty sure that the usual deep strike method for Thallax is "we were buried here in the earth all along"
They have jetpacks so I assume its dropping in like assault marines or whatever. But I guess coming from beneath the sands like necrons also works.

>>96357081
Aux and marines both have units that can kill AV14 from range. Its mostly just admech who are up shit creek.

>>96357135
>keratoses
Is that some sort of dinosaur?

>>96357137

They do both, back in 1e they even had an upgrade that let you switch them from narratively-unspecified Deep Strike to teleportarium Deep Strike so you could use them in Zones Mortalis. One of the most unnecessarily specific upgrades I've ever seen.

The ones Decima uses on Istvaan III and the ones the Darkmech use on Tallarn both bury themselves and lie in wait with multimeltas, and then obviously they can all fly.

Reaper Autocannons or Plasma Blasters on Siege Tartaros?
I'm leaning Plasma.

So phosphex rapiers are mandatory now, right?

>>96357032
Some anon in past threads showed how 400 pts of terminators in a Land Raider could defeat 600 points of Tacticals. Don't act like you can afford to ignore Land Raiders and their cargo.
Not only must you destroy that Land Raider, you have to destroy it by turn 2. I heard triple Las Vindicators can do the trick

>>96357081
>brings 100 tactical marines for the price of one spartan and its terminator deathstar.
>terminators disgorge from the Spartan and fuck up one of my 5 20 man units.
>get vapourised next turn because they're still only terminators.
>opponent is now effectively down 1k points because his Spartan can't do shit against massed infantry and his terminators are dead.

>>96357124
>I'm pretty sure that the usual deep strike method for Thallax is "we were buried here in the earth all along",
What? Even back in 1.0 they teleported in not dug in

>>96357114
10+6+1+4.5 = 21.5 threat radius. 24.5 if Tartaros.
Unless the enemy swears to remain confined to their deployment zone (and miss the actual game), they will be in range

>>96356748
I made the mistake of assuming you were more intelligent than a kindergarten student, but you are mentally retarded so the useful numbers went to waste.
If you look on your screen you see multiple different pieces of text (we call these PARAGRAPHS), each paragraph is a list of different types of units and weapons.

It is useful to be able to compare different loadouts at each size of unit. One example was "10 chainfists" or "10 powerfists" which is a useful example to know the very upper-limit (because if the upper limit is unable to even kill a tank - as was proven with easy to read numbers for 10 powerfists) then they're immediately disqualified from being a scary tank-hunting threat.

The post then described what would happen if instead it's simply 3 chainfists instead of 10 chainfists. A mere 3 dealing 5 average hull points to a chainfist is an unacceptably high number so the tanker would need to avoid that squad (in contrast to the 10 powerfists which wouldn't need to be avoided by a kratos or spartan at all, the game would end before 10 powerfists hurt it)

A unit that had 30 attacks only dropped to 27 attacks and in exchange increased its threat to AV14 to 250% the previous powerfist level. Sadly, you, being a mental retard, simply looked at the more than 1 sentence and your pea brain instantly shut off and went back to playing reruns of gay porn in your retard brain.

>>96357161
>400 pts of terminators in a Land Raider could defeat 600 points of Tacticals
Really? Terminators can beat tacticals in close combat (or shooting I guess)? Never would have guessed. Yea, terminators will wade through power armor goons given time, probably best NOT to throw power armor goons at them. Their ranged damage output is lower than their equivalent in racticals (a 40pts terminator fires four bolter shots, a 10pts tactical can fire 3), so its not like theyre going to be melting people at range. And while they (or any other power weapon/better unit) will eat tacticals in melee theyre going to need to get there first.

Land raiders and spartans also have absolutely abysmal damage output into tacticals especially, its hard to find a worse target for them. Killing 3~ tacticals a round is just NOT what you want out of your 300+pts tank.

>I heard triple Las Vindicators can do the trick
Triple las vindicator will on average do it in one round.

>>96357175
It's around that 21-24" threat range for White Scars terminators on foot with a weather wizard following them around. And you can afford 3 weather wizards instead of 1 landraider. That's one of the only things that probably keeps White Scars far ahead of Dark angel shit-tier this edition. Fast terminators where even catas get to rush and charge.

All I'm getting from this thread is that some of you sound miserable to play with.

>>96356622
Arent those Nostraman auxillia recruits

>>96357154
Plasma if you want to spend 250 pts on a unit that can only kill 13 marines across 4 turns
5 termies times 2 shots times 2/3 BS = 6.6. Times 4 turns is 26.6.
Times (3/6*1/3 + 2/6) = 13.3 marines killed in a game.
So you better don't forget, for all their guns, Terminators are melee units at the end of the day

>>96357195
No, I dont think those are damnatii. Those have darker cloth afaik. Blue is just a common SA color.

>>96357150
It's probably some new horse girl

>>96357161
triple las vindicators never do the trick for anything. Nobody ever has to give all 3 line of sight if they don't drive - and their damage is a joke if they're not stationary.

>>96357161
Only if we assume a gamestate where 1 army is composed of 60 tacticals and the other is composed of 10 retinue terminators in a spartan.

Most Retinue terminators are no more durable than their heavy assault counterparts against shooting. 500 points of terminators grt fucked by 500 points of anti terminator shooting and most anti terminator shooting won't have its damage meaningfully reduced because you shot it with some lascannons.

You'll kill 200 points of tacticals with your 500 points of terminators then eat shit and die.

>>96357182
Idk if they told you, but transports kinda make it easier for terminators to reach those power armour tacticals you don't want them to reach. Hence this whole exercise in killing them by turn 2, you know?

>>96357196
Or you could take regular tartaros instead of siege tartaros and spend 150 points on a unit that kills 9 marines across 4 turns.

>>96357205
>Retinue termi
Didn't even finish reading, anon. The exercise involved 5 regular normal terminators, meaning you can indeed afford a lot else.
More than the guy with 60 Tacticals, that's for sure

What's the best way to run Leviathans this edition? Feels like melee isn't a great idea this time around

>>96357218
You know its not one big unit right? Its probably closer to 6.

>Hence this whole exercise in killing them by turn 2, you know?
Or what? They charge and kill 100pts worth of tacticals before sitting wherever they land for the rest of the game?

>>96357218
You don't need retinue terminators to do that, you don't even need transports really.

For the price of 5 retinue terminators in a land raider you can get 3 units of 5 HA terminators on foot.

>>96357159
They're not mandatory, but they are quite good.

>>96357231
Their guns are trash, if you want to run them you run dual chainfist and zone of AV14 from going anywhere near the center of the board

>>96357229
>The exercise involved 5 regular normal terminators
There is literally no circumstance where 5 regular normal terminators can kill 600pts worth of tacticals over the length of the game. They could be in close combat turn 1 and not manage it.

And if "ability to kill tacticals" is a consideration there are literally COUNTLESS units that can do it, and do it better. Destroyers kill like 20 a turn.

>>96357231
Double autocannon.

>>96357229
Writing 400 points of terminators in a land raider could mean 2 different things and i assumed you were being especially retarded.

That said, 400 points of terminators in a land raider lose to 10 tacticals and 10 autocannon HSS who also cost 400 points so its really not all that.

>>96357161
>how 400 pts of terminators in a Land Raider could defeat 600 points of Tacticals
Anon there are a lot of units that can trade upwards in points into tacticals/despoilers. Theyre some of the worst "overall fighter" units in the army.

The issue with a unit designed to beat them is that it has to do it quite quickly, because theyre also cheap, come in a very common slot, and score lots of points. Its not enough to be able to kill X tacticals over the course of a game/before those tacticals kill you. Its about being able to do it fast enough and in great enough number to actually stop them from doing what they want to do (be lots of units that claim objectives and win the game). And thats something that land raider + terminator unit will not do.

>>96357240
this keeps coming up and its such a retarded argument made from some basement living single cell organism

>>96357092
>That was also true in previous editions
No it isn't?
Lascannon pens are 1/6 chance to instantly kill it,1/6 to immobilise, 1/6 to remove the main gun.
Melta is the same but 1/3 chance to instantly kill it.

Thats at least a 50% chance to do very meaningful, or lethal damage, and importantly means you are never 'wasting' shooting into a tank. Even if you can't kill them by hp stripping over however many turns are left in the game, that single shot can still take them out.
In 3e, there DOES get to a point where its statistically pointless to shoot these kinds of vehicles, where you simply won't have enough damage to kill them in the time left (or it becomes pointless).

>If they move their spartan or land raider to disembark their contents turn 1 you can just fire at the contents
Yes that is literally what I am saying. I have never suggested its not viable to shoot av14 - I am saying that is a genuine tactical decision in 3e on whether its worth shooting the brick or shooting other stuff instead.
i.e. how many units/turns of shooting does it take to kill this brick, and what am I losing out on by shooting that instead of all these other targets?

>>96357114
>With what guns lmao, half his army is a spartan and terminators
Its not like a spartan is some giga points efficient AT platform but... it genuinely is respectably good.
A spartan can move at full speed and have 4 lascannon shots with 3 damage each. That is ample for killing a pred/vindi/sicaran.

Also the laser destroyer upgrade is finally an actual credible switch, instead of being a straight downgrade in the last 2 editions, but is probably still worse over all.

>That is not some massive threat range that will get them into the ideal position
Thats more than enough to threaten mid field objectives, with your vanguard unit who's primary purpose is to clear objectives, so yes.

>>96357273
>>96357263
I guess it could be a decent tac squad mulcher with double storm cannons and the phospex launcher. Though maybe the grav bombards are better sicne they force status as well, and they've got more or less the same daamage profile as the cannons. Cyclonic melta seems pretty nice as well. Actually, with 3 shots each and AP2 they might be even better into tacticals than the storm cannons? Need an autist to math this out

>>96357297
The land raider terminator deathstar argument or the footslogging terminator argument?

>>96357169
>bring 100 tacticals
>gets hit by phosphex mortars at a fraction of the price and they all die and run away from panic(3)

I can make funny arguments that don't actually relate to the point too, anon.

>>96357304
Personally im going to try the grav weapon. I think it might be usefull since im playing Night Lords. And then i can still go melee because twin claws only give you +1 attack anyway so i can miss out on it no problem.

>>96357182
Why do people keep saying 'spartans are bad because they can only kill a few tacticals per turn'
Do people not realise that have D3 double shot lascannons that do full damage on the move?
Spartans are pretty reliable at deleting all the av13 tanks in a single turn. Of course using it as AT alone doesn't make its points back, but its doing this for free on top of transport duties, and take considerable firepower to kill.

>>96357315
One phosphex rapier costs like 75pts or something. Thats almost the cost of an entire 10 man tactical unit. Having those phosphex mortars requires a siege breaker, and you cant take as many because the slots are more limited.

>>96357233
The vanguard terminator unit squatting on an objective after killing the line tacticals on it is unironically doing its job, yes.

>>96357308

the undeveloped brain saying X or Y unit will NEVER get LOS on a transport barrelling down the table at your deployment zone

>>96357300
>Its not like a spartan is some giga points efficient AT platform but... it genuinely is respectably good.
>A spartan can move at full speed and have 4 lascannon shots with 3 damage each. That is ample for killing a pred/vindi/sicaran.
You'll need to kill 3 predators to make your points back which assumes you'll be fighting someone who brings 3 predators.

You bounce off of russes and Krios because AV14 cuts both ways, you even bounce off of an Annihilator malcador who has decent odds of killing you before you kill him and is almost half your price.

>>96357196
>>96357224
So what, are the Siege Tarts a meme option?

>>96357327
that one rapier can just lock down an objective on its own if it has something to hide behind.
Honestly panic (3) is kinda just bullshit, in general.

>>96357321
Is the kit easy to magnetize? The new box set is giving me ideas. Actually, will it even come with all the weapon options?

>>96357325
>Why do people keep saying 'spartans are bad because they can only kill a few tacticals per turn'
They dont exactly kill other things very well either. You can substitute tacticals for vets and its still not a great damage output.

>Spartans are pretty reliable at deleting all the av13 tanks in a single turn
They fail to kill a predator or vindicator per volley (on average). They also (often) wont want to fire at tanks, because those tanks can have the exact sort of weapons that hurt spartans. Just about the only think spartans are GOOD at killing is custodes (where the d3 jibs them and they have a shitty 6++ for defense) and walkers. But "good for dread hunting" goes for a LOT of special weapons now.

>but its doing this for free on top of transport duties,
It is 400pts, it does nothing for free. It needs to do a LOT in a game to justify its existence.

>>96357325
Doesnt have stable so will snapfire for multiple targets sadly

>>96357315
Phosphex quads don't kill stuff very efficiently anon, you're paying for panic 3 not for damage.

Tacs would be running away all game but actually killing them requires their points in phosphex and takes the entire game.

>>96357337
>You'll need to kill 3 predators to make your points back
They are not just dedicated AT though, they're also doing transport duty, while still doing AT at full power even when moving full speed - not many units have such mobile AT, which is kinda funny.

>which assumes you'll be fighting someone who brings 3 predators
Spartan works out the same against any of the av13 marine vehicles, they all have 6hp or less, so pred, vindi, sicaran, all of them just need 2 pens to kill.
If your opponent is not bringing any light/medium vehicles (or dreads), they are either a based infantry spammer, or they are the theoretical av14 spammer I started this whole convo about, and yes, I agree av14 is hard to deal with, with the majority of weapons... which was my original point.

>>96357361
>Why is the invincible transport tank with some of the best anti-tank guns in the game also not an infantry blender?

>>96357380
>some of the best anti-tank guns in the game
Lol. Lmao. Are you fucking serious?

>>96357380
It does like one pen vs a predator or whatever per round. That is not "some of the best anti-tank in the game" its BETTER than what it does vs infantry, but its not GOOD. As a gun-platform the spartan is an absolute joke. Which is the point, its a big armored brick that doesent do very much and costs a lot.

>but its a transport
How many points are you going to pay to move a unit of terminators 10" up the board?

>>96357367
If they're running they're not scoring, the difference is kind of trivial - the phospex mortar has pretty low range so it's really only locking down one specific area/objective. But yeah panic(3) is just too reliable honestly.

>>96357364
So point it at one target since you're av14 on all sides?

>>96357361
>They dont exactly kill other things very well either
Bruh why are you shooting infantry with high tier AT weapons?

>They fail to kill a predator or vindicator per volley
The average doesn't matter, you just need 2 pens to kill, but yes of course its not guaranteed to be deleting tanks every turn - but it has respectable odds of doing so.

>They also (often) wont want to fire at tanks
?? Vehicles can only return fire with defensive weapons, assuming they can even point at the spartan, in what world do you not want to shoot tanks with anti tank weapons?

>>96357379
You'll still lose to a Malcador because HP7 works out as taking an additional penetrating hit to kill against almost every anti tank weapon in the game.

The bloody things get 4 lascannons, a flareshield and a demolisher for 260 points. Since the Spartan is a transport its always gonna be in range of the stationary demolisher and its very unlikely to 1 turn a malcador.

Typically the malc will kill the Spartan by its second shooting phase.

>>96357389
Four S9 AP2 D3 armourbane shots that function at 100% on the move, and are likely to fire for the entire game unless the opponent spends a disproportionate amount of anti-tank firepower to take it down. Now, 5 man squads in LRs are probably more effcient, but the Spartan itself is not some unplayable garbage like anons claim. You can also give it the laser destroyer sponsons if the thought of putting heavy guns into something that's meant to barrel forward to vomit terminators into an objective doesn't seem retarded to you. Which by the way, is a major pet peeve I have with the LR carrier. Why the fuck are the sponsons heavy?

>>96357406
>>96357389
A spartan is the equivilent of a 6 man lascannon HSS, only it can move at full speed without losing damage.

Its not the highest AT output in the game, but unironically it is very good MOBILE AT, which is useful since its main job as a transport involves moving... Also it means its much easier to get flanking shot, while the majority of A tier AT needs to hold still do be useful.

>>96357415
>The average doesn't matter
It absolutely does.

>you just need 2 pens to kill
Which you on average will not get in one round. And "spend half the game using a 400pts tank to kill something 1/3 of its cost" is not very good.

>but it has respectable odds of doing so.
That depends entirely on how you define "respectable"

>?? Vehicles can only return fire with defensive weapons
No, vehicles can return fire with everything now. This isnt 2e. That vindicator is shooting back the whole laser destroyer. And it counts as stationary when it does that.

>>96357406
I mean, the transport slots alone are worth 4-ish rhinos on a (much) tankier platform. So the closes estimation to "how much would you value the transport capacity" would be 4xRhino, so 240 points. Would you pay 160 points for an AV14 brick with two lascannon arrays? Oh, it also gets assault transport btw

>>96357427
ok, good for the malc I guess? Whats your point?

I've never said the spartan is some god choice, or is points effective, or is the best AT. But people keep trying to imply spartans are some kind of meme choice that sucks dick, when it categorically does not. Yes its expensive, yes you need to get a lot out of it to make it worth while - but it very much can.

>>96357434
You are not going to be flanking enemy tanks with a spartan be serious. It moves 10" a turn.
But sure, its not nothing, but lascannon HSS are also not exactly some insane AT this edition either. Its fine enough to kill a light/medium vehicle over the course of a game.

>>96357430
>Four S9 AP2 D3 armourbane shots that function at 100% on the move
Yea, thats just not actually that impressive. Sorry. Its not nothing, but its also not actually a whole lot. Its six lascannons (essentially), which is nice and all, but a predator can have four for 1/3 of the cost or thereabouts.

>and are likely to fire for the entire game unless the opponent spends a disproportionate amount of anti-tank firepower to take it down
The spartans weight in At kills it in one round. Its not living four turns against anything that planned to deal with a spartan.

>>96357415
>If they're running they're not scoring, the difference is kind of trivial - the phospex mortar has pretty low range so it's really only locking down one specific area/objective. But yeah panic(3) is just too reliable honestly.

The problem is phosphex squads are extremely easy to kill for way cheaper than the cost of the quads themselves. Any kind of outflanking or deepstriking shooting unit shits on them turn 2, as does most aircraft.

Using them against aux in particular is horrible because Aux artillery can shoot at you as a reaction for having the audacity to target infantry within 12" of them and most aux artillery is D2. You can lose rapiers to counter battery fire in the start of your first shooting phase.

>>96357470
And that AT is not living shots from anything cheaper either. The Spartan requires your opponent to focus fire it down, and even then it likely already did its job of delivering angry manlets to said anti tank guns. And if it survives, it's got auto repair 4+ and is one of the best targets in the game for battlesmith rolls

>>96357443
>I mean, the transport slots alone are worth 4-ish rhinos
It does not have a 48 man transport capacity.
Also, being able to move 4 squads of 10 is a lot more valuable than moving one squad of 40. Rhinos can target multiple objectives and maneuvers, while the spartan makes one (and slower).

four rhinos are also 20HP.

Damage turned this game's discussions into 40k...

>>96357487
>and even then it likely already did its job of delivering angry manlets to said anti tank guns
10" anon. The spartan has a 10" move. It lets you get A unit to midfield turn 1 where it otherwise couldnt. Its not diving into the backline like its a termite.

>>96357439
Averages doesn't matter because there is no reward for overkill, and squadrons don't exist anymore - this was an argument against the spartan, not for it.

>Which you on average will not get in one round
its like 40 something % odds to 1 tap that tank, so yes, respectable, not great, but it WILL happen in battles.

>No, vehicles can return fire with everything now
you haven't read the rules then, so dunno what to say.

>>96357231
Double grav. In melee they bounce off due to WS4 and most of their guns are mid.

>>96357505
>its like 40 something % odds to 1 tap that tank
You need two pens on four shots. You have a 50% chance to pen per hit, and a 2/3 chance to hit per shot. Its not 40% to get two pens. Napkin maths gives me 1/3 to kill a predator in one volley.

>>96357159
No, and anymore than one battery is OP

>>96357503
>>96357470
It moves 10 and fires at full efficiency.
That pred with lascannons? That vindi? malcador? venator? THey all need to stay still to get actual damage. Don't have LOS? Your damage drops in half. Spartan never has that issue.

Spartan shooting at full power on the move is not a joke, sure you can face your vehicles at it to stop flanking, but you can't rotate your vehicles without then exposing them to other AT, the spartan doesn't care about that since its an AV14 brick, and since sponsons are defensive weapons, it can return fire at full power.
That vindi trying to shoot your spartan? 40% chance it just explodes as soon as it tries.

>>96357518
This is why I said averages don't matter anon.
We care about probability of an event occuring.

>>96357499
yeah this edition sux

>>96357464
My point is that Spartans get shit on by auxilia I guess. SA tanks are generally superior to their Legion equivalent, the Russ is a better predator, the Malc beats the Sicarian, the Dracos better than the Spartan and the Carnodon is a generally better Sabre. This is balanced by Aux infantry being generally inferior to their marine equivalents.

If you wanna talk about bullshit unkillable tanks Mech and Aux both do it better than marines but you fixate on defending the Spartan like your life depends on it. I don't know man I think its weird.

>>96357505
>you haven't read the rules then
You clearly havent actually read what defensive weapons do now. It is literally just "can split fire at full BS". Nothing about defensive weapons (or the return fire reaction) mentions each other.

I guess the question becomes, do you buy the hull lascannons on LR carriers? damage 1 on the move suuuucks. I bet it kills less than 1 cata terminator with a full volley on the move

>>96357531
>That vindi trying to shoot your spartan? 40% chance it just explodes as soon as it tries.
Less. That vindicator is also a fraction of the spartans cost, even at 100% to kill it it would be an okay trade because you can take near on three vindicators for the price of one spartan (three regular vindicators actually cost less than one, and will kill it in one round of shooting because the demolisher cannon is now insane vs tanks).

>>96357562
I didn't even start talking about spartans, anon. Other anons just started spurging about how spartans are shit and a waste of points when I was saying that in some cases you're better off just not shooting av14 vehicles and focus on softer stuff instead.

>>96357567
Ok buddy.

>>96357585
This is why i put a decurion locus on my kratos

To make Beakie Destroyers that aren’t on the ground, is kitbashing and cutting kits apart my only option?

>>96357575
The 3 vindi's need to stay still with their 36 inch range weapons to not halve their damage output, and thats assuming all 3 can even get LOS on the spartan.
But yes, if your board is shitty and has fuck all LOS blocking terrain, and you willingly deploy a spartan in range and LOS of all 3 dedicated AT vehicles, and you're going first... the spartan will need to pop smoke.

However if you're not retarded you are going to try be out of range/LOS of 1 or more of them, or if you're going first you presumably will be trying to kill vindi's before they can kill your spartan.

>>96357231
straight into a knight that costs twice what they do and gets fuuuuucked

>>96357600
just get a psychic midget to levitate them for you like a normal person jesus christ

>>96357600
You could take RG Dark Furies and add the pistols.

I hate talking about whiteroom shit!
Play the game!
Cite actual gameplay!
Not your spreadsheets!

>>96357562
>the Russ is a better predator
eeehhhhh side grades.
Exchange of survivability for lethality.
Predator has more threat since it can take sponsons where as the run has got stronger front armor and an additional AP.

>>96357600
Round about way of saying assault marines. But yes. If you already have tac marines you could get away with inverting the holster and having a chainsword drawn if you don't want to get other kits. Cut off the pockets and glue them to the other side.

>>96357618
This WAS talking about actual gameplay. Literal battlereports people have posted in these threads, and in other groups have repeatedly discussed how its often not worth the firepower to shoot giga armour bricks in many cases. The thread just devolved into shitters saying spartans can never possibly be useful for whatever reason though.

>>96357619
A russes better AV values let's it squeeze out an extra shooting phase over a Predator in a lot of situations though not to the ridiculous extent of the Malc over the Sicarian.

5 HP VS 6 HP is irrelevant when most Anti tank guns are D2, D3 or D6. 6 HP VS 7 HP is huge for the exact same reason.

>>96357656
Yeah but where the Russ has a higher poinjt of AV, the Pred has got actual sponsons 2 las canons vs 1 or just better overall options as well.

Just saying that predator vs russ is a pretty even sidegrade

What are you working on tonight fellas?
I managed to find 5 of these old MK2 heads so I made 5 missile Havocs.

>>96357635
Because we've also heard retards spamming AV14 terminator deathstars and then calling an anon a WAACfag for bringing 80 MEQs.

>>96357627
>>96357666
Discovered with cutting and filing it's easy to invert holstered pistols

>>96357664
Its the templates, Marines pay a lot for their accuracy but in a lot of cases it doesn't really matter whether or not you hit with a blast. The battlecanon only scatters d6 and its a 3" blast so like, half the time you're still making vets and Thallax explode even on a "miss." The executioner is an even better example since its still breaching on 4+ but does 2 damage so it oneshots terminators now.

The Vanquisher is also kinda dumb, half the time it does nothing to a predator, 1/3rd of the time it averages 2 HP and 1/6th of the time it spikes for 5 HP and oneshots your ass, bloody casino gun.

>>96357678
nice work

>>96357670
Funny NL anon was reporting on nerds saying that in his local group, not people here saying it.
Guess spartan's are living rent free in some people's heads though.

domitar my beloved.

>>96357752
>4 wounds

>>96357762
still better than tech thralls.

>>96357714

The Krios is the real standout here honestly. 5" AP3 D2 blast with a solid status, it's barely possible to miss the unit you fired at with only 1d6 scatter. At least it means the Shadowsword can start picking up all these annoying AV14 boxes.

>>96357752

Once you engage in a ruthless program of Laser Destroyer and Kratos depopulation, I'm actually quite fond of these guys. They have so much D2 Breaching shooting that sticking Guide on them lets a trio melt basically anything with a Toughness value, and priests can repair them if they get a bit fucked up. Going to give the triple domitar midfield-securing squad a go in my Macrotek list in a week or so.

>>96357231
dread should have stayed at WS5 removing talons and making them less accessible was good enought

>>96357806
Dual melee WS5, dual gun bs5, mixed armaments firestorm

Reading the rules on how to list build, if I’m understanding this right, there’s not a troop tax, but a character tax to get detachments? Do characters usually runaround by themselves, or are bodyguard units a thing in HH?

>>96357812
Fuck you and your OC donutsteel houserules

But also, I really like the suggestion, good job anon

>>96357832
There are no mandatory slots. You start with the Crusade priamry detachment. Each command slot you fill unlocks extra detachments of your choice. If you don't join your HQ to a squad he's going to get shot off the board by anything that looks at him funny

>>96357832

Characters invariably join units and run around with a squad, lone characters are likely to get shot to death in short order unless designed specifically to go solo. In previous editions some Primarchs like Corax and Kurze could manage it and not be too easily splattered, not sure about this one yet.

Armies don't typically have a specific unit that exists entirely to be bodyguards - there are "retinues", but those tend to be generally-choppy elites that can work fine without a character attached and just happen to be good places to put one.

>>96357864
Tfw trying to figure out where to put my Warsmith, my Siege Breaker, my Centurion and my Delegatus.

>>96357877
you can always just lump them in with your tac squads. That said, why do you need so many? And why a Dleegatus when you already have a Warsmith?

Should I add chain bayonets to my tac squad?

>>96357936
no, bayonets only give you AP5 now. I don't even know if there are any 5+ or 6+ save units in the game. Maybe some militia shit?

>>96357936
Yes. They look cool.

>>96357945
>6+ save units
Tech-thralls

>>96357888
So I could do this.
I wonder if I'm overvaluing getting Expendable (1) on as many things as I can, though.

>>96357990
That does look like a pretty based list, though can't you do the same using aux detachments?

>>96358005
There's not a lot of Aux detachments that have Prime on Heavy Assault or Troops though, are there?
At least not for Iron Warriors.

>>96357945
How could you forget the Davinite Lodge Priest and the Expeditionary Navigator anon?
But yea it'll likely just help with clearing militia chaff at best.

>pay ten points to lose half your squad
I love thousand sons anons

>>96358013
Fair enough, Now that I look at it, how TF are you supposed to get prime HA slots on most legions?

>>96358044
Yeah, that's the rub.
I'm changing the list a bit though, I think I'm overvaluing Expendable (1).
Gonna cut the Delegatus and make the Destroyers be one squad.

>>96358031
>pay one reaction point to shoot yourself
heh

>>96358049
Fucking based

>>96358046
Yeah sounds good, especially since you're essentially making one unit give one less point, by paying for a unit that gives more points on death

>>96358044
You don't. It's hard to get them in general, and even harder to get ones that are troops, command, or elite or retinue. Usually each legion will get one that fits their non-elite legion unit (unless you're word bearers in which case lol fuck you I guess)

>>96358060
Yeah, now I'm just torn deciding if I want to keep the Siege Tartaros or swap them out for something else.
Five terminators with autocannons feels on theme but the Reaper Autocannon is just worse than a regular one for some reason.
Maybe I double down on Destroyers, sneak a brick of Mortalis in there with Hand Flamers?

Painting Solar Auxilia is a pain. I've been working on 40 veletaris and have 60 riflmen, 4 Leman Russes, 2 Dracosans, and two Aethons. Ain't ever gonna get a game in!

Wonder if the new breacher kit will be compatible in any way with the Medusan Immortals kit. Actually, can you buy the immortals and stick the bits on the nuscale tac bodies?

>>96358120
Anon immortals are basically already nuscale, just stick a bit of plasticard under their feet and they'll see eye to eye with the nu stuff without looking out of place proportionately

>>96358132
Oh that's sweet, I thought they were much smaller.

>>96358132
taking volkite chargers away from breachers was such a god damn travesty.

Vet breachers are a super cool unit, but they fit a very different role to normal breachers.

What are you taking on your tarantulas, anons?
Heavy bolters?
Hyperios?

>>96357170

They had an upgrade to teleport, I think they're normally meant to fly. HH1 has buried Thallax used at Istvaan, but that seems like rather a desperation tactic given this was the same battle that involved a Reductor magos cobbling together a vortex-bomb IED just to kill a few more traitor tanks. Shame Decima didn't get rules this edition, he was very cool indeed and pre-laid mechanicum traps would make a great unique character ability even if he would be stuck with the reasonably meh Reductor abilities.

>>96358155
didn't they get them back in legacies?

>>96358203
vet breachers can take them, but normal ones can't... and vet breachers are mainly a melee squad

>>96358211
Immortals get them too :)

Is a dracosan w/demolisher oppressive at 1k?

>>96358283
in 1.0 maybe, in 3.0 nah

>>96358179
That's literally what an interdiction cadre does lol: they pretend to be dead or buried to surprise the enemy.

>>96357286
Land Raiders are literally invulnerable to autocannons, and unstoppable by Tacticals
That being said, 10 autocannons are a real threat to terminators. Unless the Land Raider can Stun them with its havoc launcher, the HSS's overwatch might be one of the worst things that can happen to terminators.
Too bad HSS are no longer Heavy type, because it is now they could use it :(
>>96357295
Aww. A lot of shilling tactical statuses just so they can be ignored and the game still ends up boiling down to who can delete units faster.

What's /hhg/ opinion on this model?
It's a LR analog that is basically a mini-mastodon.

>>96357348
They might be a trap: they have good shooting, for sure, but apparently they still need to charge.
Seeing how you don't want to risk them against things who have an actual chance against them, and giving them chainfists would be too expensive, it may be better to send them against things that can't threaten them and that can be killed with their base power weapons. So, single W 3+ saves. That's troops.

>>96357364
Spartan's better weapons are sponson-mounted, which makes them Defensive, which forces full BS when split firing or Returning fire. In fact the one spartan gun that snapshots is the central twin heavy bolter

>>96357367
>Termies don't kill efficient
>Land Raiders don't kill efficient
>Phosphex doesn't kill efficient
Is there any Efficient Killer I should meet? Certainly won't fight Tacticals with other Tacticals (unless I'm AL and can shoot without being shot-at lmao)

>>96357430
>Four S9 AP2 D3 armourbane shots that function at 100% on the move
Spartans aren't Stable though? But I'm glad they get those bolter batteries. Double down on infantry. It's gonna be silly. It's basically a sponson-mounted Rapier lmao
>Spartan unloads 4 Rapiers

>Finish my Rhino
>Varnish goes on poorly because my airbrush is being a cunt
>Dries 3d and crackly
>Have to strip
Fucks sake. Hope your hobby is going better anon

>>96357571
Maybe you should play a bit and see how often you can keep the LR stationary. Its job could be done by turn 2, and that still leaves you half a game of static unmovable gunship that some anons apparently won't bother responding to

>>96357635
I heard a list immune to LRs full of termies is a list with like 80 veterans? I'm not sure what that even looks like

>>96357767
>better than tech thralls.
That's like, the lowest bar to clear

>>96358749
>mini-mastodon.
OOF gimme. If it were Spartan-sized, maybe it could have quad lascannon sponsons

>>96358754
their niche seems to be mid field support- work as a blocker unit to anything that tries to vanguard your home objective, use autocannons to stay relevant in the game when not blocking

>>96358749
she cute

>>96358775
Why would it need stable?
It's weapons aren't heavy or ordnance.
Sponsons are also defensive weapons. Spartan is mobile as fuck, in terms of damage output.

>>96358915
Wtf Lascannon arrays are neither heavy like Twin Lascannons or Laser Destroyers. This edition's weapons are fucking schizo

Just terminators with [Generic Power Weapon]s, living the moment

If it's going to be +5 pts over a hammer, it could at least be D2 lmao

will the scyllax and exhidnax get new models or are they going to be one of those forever models you just have to buy in resin.

>>96359042
feast your eyes on the 20ppm WS glaves that you can't even give your sergeants. overpriced wargear is a long standing tradition

>>96359100

The problem isn't it being overpriced, it's the lack of granularity in wargear pricing. Everything just goes up in 5 point increments, so if it costs 15pts or more and is worse than a Thunderhammer, it's shit. Because the Thunderhammer is 15pts from the Sarg menu. Nothing AP3 should be 15pts or more. Not unless it's got some absolutely insane rule attached or it does something like a bajillion damage. But, que sera sera.

>>96359115
for real, the 5pt wargear steps are maddening

>>96358083
Gorgeous scheme tho anon.

>>96357195
Those are Manachean Bulls, one of the best SA schemes.

>>96359042
Why not just add them to the list of basic power weapons? 10 points for that would be fine.

>>96359144
The Coronid deeps are such a cool setting.

>>96359064
They'll probably get new models when GW releases a generic plastic Tech Priest for the Mechanicum.

Are Indomitus termies even useable in 3? Are they in some other book?

>>96359191
They're in the legacy document.

Since the new combat boxes are going to be filled with Command Sections (and also Sentinels) how am I going to make the most of these boxes?

I can see command squads are definitely a key component in SA, but the limitations in command to 3 means you're limited in Tercios you can bring anyway, so I'm a bit baffled how you build a non-tank based SA force at this point, without resorting to Auxiliary slots which don't allow you to benefit from the Command Sections anyway?

>>96359042
It's a 15pt power axe with reaping blow. Would you pay 5 pts to give your guys reaping blows on their weapons? I guess it could be decent if you want to mulch massed MEQ. Then again paired claws cost less and their extra attacks aren't conditional. But uuuhhh you keep youe pistol with the scythe?

>>96359042
>>96359256
It's called making thematic armies and not being a WAAC minmaxer. Don't worry about the crunch too much

Surely militia tomorrow

>>96359236
Ah, thanks!

>>96359251
You go with the command apex for 5 command slots instead of 3, You WILL be filling them all out every list.

Then you pick your cohort and spam its associated command squad, Ultima spams line, Solar spams veletaris, Siege spams artillery, Mechanised spams armoured and Iron spams the tactical command.

No one has enough sentinels to play Recon anyway so that doesn't matter.

Every army also wants at least 1 artillery and 1 Armoured Terico so every aux army will be 1 Legatine command section, 1 artillery command section, 1 armoured command section and 2~3 of whatever command gains a buff in your cohort. As well as the effectively mandatory 80~100 lasrifles.

Also plastic Minotaur when.

>>96359064
Are these the ones that require you to heat up and reposition their wires?
i remember seeing some one with similar models that looked like scar crows with straight wires siticking out.

>>96359414
Ta anon. Do I want to keep my Command Sections, and Legatine Section with ranged or melee weapons? Not sure whether they're for babysitting or charging in. The Command Section kit doesn't come with many melee weapons, though I suppose I'll end up with leftover swords from the regular SA kits

>>96359414
Should I be maxxing out my Veletari detachments in Solar? Right now I have two with a split axe volkite squad in dracosan and a 10 man vanguard squad in Auroxes, command in an aurox

>>96359599
Legatine command squads are alright in melee and the Veletaris Command can all take storm axes. The other squads should stick to rifles.

We've established that loyalists from traitor legions is lame, but what about traitors from loyalist legions?

>>96359622
Depends on what you want, prime elites should be axe sections with master sarge. Also consider giving master sarge veletaris powerfists for 3 WS5 S7 AP2 D2 swings.

Regular elites can be vanguard or CHOOM Sections. You can also leave them blank if you want to spend more points on axes.

>>96359650
idk, running mixed sections for now because I think I'll get more bang for my buck if I can get volley/overwatch before losing chiggers to the first round of melee and letting the axes swing back.

>>96359119

I think it's Thunder Hammers that are just throwing the metrics of everything off. If they went up to the same cost as Fists and Chainfists, or they were the same Initiative penalty as them, it would balance things out a bit. But the fact is that AP2 needs to be recognized as HUGELY better than AP3 power weapons and anything that isn't needs to be under 20pts in some way. It's not just them being anti-TEQ, they're also Anti-Command as well since literally every command choice and up in the game aside from the Optae has a 2+.

>>96358749
Looks loads better than a land raider, but land raiders are also the ugliest fucking vehicle ever designed.

>>96358737
>Aww. A lot of shilling tactical statuses just so they can be ignored and the game still ends up boiling down to who can delete units faster.
Thats also not true. There are units that can efficiently apply statuses, its just both not an actual substitute for "killing things" and also not something terminators and other slugger units really do. A 5pts havoc launcher on a rhino drops stun(1) templates, a 40pts rapier with the bolters has suppressive(2) with 8 shots.

Statuses are definetly powerful and important, theyre just not equivalent to killing a unit, and not something thats going to be very efficient against 10 man tactical squads (or smaller militia units, or whatever else).

>>96359646
Traitors are just lame. Renegades is where it's at.

>>96359731
>Statuses are definetly powerful and important, theyre just not equivalent to killing a unit, and not something thats going to be very efficient against 10 man tactical squads (or smaller militia units, or whatever else).

Status prevents scoring which makes line and vanguard worthless. Pinned and stunned are also broadly useful against almost everything and every status makes the enemy I1 in fights which is useful against anything not already I1 natively.

>>96359747
Blackshields???

>>96359764
>Status prevents scoring which makes line and vanguard worthless
Vanguard should still work. But yes, suppressing units prevents them from holding objectives.

You have however missed the point. A squad of phosphex rapiers can, very reliably pin and maim a 100pts 10 man tactical squad. But that squad of rapiers is also (probably) quite a lot more expensive than that tactical squad and for a similar pts level you could almost certainly just kill the tacticals, tacticals are not very hard to kill.

Status effects are an efficient way of crippling and containing durable units which are otherwise difficult to remove. 20 man blobs with an apothecary for example. There you can in a cost effective manner limit what very expensive and dangerous units can do. But a lot of those methods are simply rather wasted firing at specifically small and cheap units. Statuses are good, applying statuses is good, its not a substitute for having things that kill units and its not always the most efficient way of dealing with problems.

>>96359236
>I could use my 40K Terminators in 40K for a easy 360+ points of already painted models
That’s neat I guess. Still probably gonna wait for true scale Cataphracii though.

Would it be acceptable to use Armageddon pattern basilisks and Medusa's for solar aux? I love their design.

>>96359662
I think that the mixed sections are the way to go as well anon, my only concern would be it being too effective in the shooting phase and making it harder to charge later.

>>96359874
It would be, but the SA design is a million times better FYI.

>>96359874
No* because Chimera chassis vehicles aren't supposed to exist during the Horus Heresy.
Despite that they still get mentioned in a few books and I think Visions of Heresy has a Griffon.

>>96359874
I don't think SA ever used chimera-based things but it's your army. Chimeras(and variants) are in a bit of a weird area where the card game has them and BL references them but the current wargame doesn't. Personally I prefer the SA ones but, again, just be yourself. Also you shouldn't ask us, some strangers on the web, but your group.

>>96359891
>>96359893
>>96359894
Thanks for the feedback anons, I'll definitely check out the aux ones.
Reason I'm not asking my group is because it's entirely made up of people I introduced to the hobby in early 2.0 and they all know even less than I do so I want to make sure I'm not setting a bad example by bringing the wrong models (and my knowledge of auxilia lore and equipment is very limited).
Thanks anons!

What legions pair best with Solar Auxilia?

>>96359787
Not every unit is phosphex rapiers. There are plenty of ways to force status checks cheaply. Hell almost every vehicle in a marine army list can take a Havoc for 5 points to fish for stunning. Every tech priest can take a grav gun, aux have a billion ways to spam multi lasers, this isn't hard.

Status won't work every time but if you've brought enough you can tag every infantry unit your opponent has deployed, at that point you'll be slamming enough status to debuff a portion of his army every turn.

Sure you do want to be able to kill shit but this doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. You CAN do both and it's gonna work better than focusing solely on 1 over the other.

>>96359928
Sons of Horus JUST spam lists?

>>96359942
...justaerin spam? Is that what you're saying???

>>96359958
Yes

>>96359961
Why?

>>96359912
One thing the other anons didn't mention is that at this point of the setting Armageddon was still called Ullanor and although the orks had been cleared out the imperium hadn't settled the world yet.

Armageddon doesn't get settled by the imperium until after the War of the beast ends when the Admech fuck around with imperial records to hide the location of Ullanor so they can steal the planet and study all the proto krork tech left behind.

No armageddon means no armageddon pattern. That said the picture you posted looks like it has the same sealed crew compartment as every other Sol Aux tank so you could just, call it a Voss or Metallica pattern if you wanted. Its not as if EVERY auxilia Cohort would be exclusively using Mars and Saturnyne pattern equipment.

>>96359928
WS, SW, AL, WE, NL, BA and EC all benefit from auxilia support.

White Scars canonically often rely on auxilia elements to hold the Territory they take and that works on the tabletop as well, commit fully to fast attack choices and bikes then let the lasrifles sit on objectives for you.

Alpha legion can use their auxilia as human shields to protect their more valuable units which let's you turn lasrifle tericos into ablative wounds for your tanks or dreadnoughts.

Night lords benefit a lot from attacking enemies under status and Auxilia have a lot of options for making status, malcadors in particular can force 4 suppression checks and a pinning check every turn for 190 points.

SW, BA, WE and EC are all powerful melee fighters so they can commit to that identity wholeheartedly and let the aux handle shooting.

UM are also an honourable mention for having the biggest lore connection to auxilia even tho they have few gameplay reasons to take them.

>I quite like the idea of playing ultramarines
>but I also quite like fulgrim's HH daemon model

Hmmm...decisions, decisions...

>>96360028
Play ultras, no one else will.

militia....

should I make a cadian themed army? (easy)
catachan themed army (harder, need to find a good set of lasgun arms as i'm not using the plastic kit, only the HWTs and command squad)
or an orlock themed army? (hardest, how would I style tanks to fit in with the models?)

>>96360028
Whenever I think things like this I just remember...you can buy models to paint and display without needing to use them in game. Hell, make a demo board with your Ultramarines facing off against Fulgrim.
(Fulgrim model is also basically impossible to transport safely so it works much better as a display piece

>>96360028
You could play Ultras while keeping the Fulgrim model hidden up your ass

What's the best loadout for saturnines?

>>96360159
Magnetizing them and waiting for Forges of Saturn

>>96360159
Right now it's plasma + fist

Wait till forges of Saturn though, both of the current guns kind of suck

>>96360159
Plasma and a fist.
D guns are a trap weapon and suck more then they blow
Double plasma is cute but leaves you fucked in melee and you realistically never are going to get to shoot both of them.
Plasma and fist.

What do I need to know to begin with SA? Now's the time to start a different project

>>96360186
What makes you think forges of Saturn will improve anything for basic saturnine, it's just special units for thousand sons and word bearers, saturnine centurions and command squads, and some missions

>>96360237
Do you mean like, lore or gameplay or tips when building the kits or what?

I know I'm a few years late but I was re-reading the age of darkness rulebook and came across this
>Much of the organisation of the early Legions owed greatly to the ancient and proven Terran patterns of strategy, hierarchy and function as laid down in the revered texts of the Principia Belicosa of Roma
>Principia Belicosa of Roma
>of Roma
I see the Principia Belicosa has evolved from being Vegetius' De re militari but in SPESS to literally being Vegetius' De re militari in space.

>>96360268
More the latter 2, but literally anything anyone can offer would be appreciated

>>96360285
Maybe Emps was Flavius Vegetius Renatus too.

>>96360028
You could always get raped, anon!!!

>Ultramarine’s special armory is axes and shields
For some reason they struck me as more of a shooty army. Will probably buy my first resin getting some of the wargear.

/HHG/ your thoughts.
Mixxed rapier units
2 HB and 2 quad? sounds pretty versatile.

>>96360329
>/HHG/ your thoughts.
I want to impregnate a computer

>>96360329
Forces your quads to keep los. Try heavy bolter/grav instead.

>>96360285
God the Emperor really is fictions biggest Romanaboo isn't he.

>>96360026
Dark Angels also benefit from auxilia, because at least auxilia have a trait.

>>96359866
>use my 40K Terminators in 40K
Yes. Was this ever in doubt?

>>96360442
Surely you’re not so autistic to not recognize a mistake in a post and discern the true meaning….

>>96360289
K,

So the most important thing to remember when playing the Solar auxilia is that you do not have an armour save. You may be thinking "yes I do the datasheet says 4+ SAV" but you do not understand how many AP4 weapons are in the game.

Go open up your liber and count the number of AP5 or worse guns in the game, there aren't that many. Like, 80% of all ranged weapons are AP4 or better. Aux are unironically tougher in melee than they are at range against most things because most units only have an AP0 CCW and the chainsword is only AP5.

How do we deal with this? We do it in layers.

Transports are the first layer. The Aurox and Arvus are pretty good at delivering small veletaris squads where they wanna go while the Draco is your go to for shifting big veletaris blocks and lasrifles.

Cover is the second layer, if its out of a transport it should be claiming some kind of cover save or its not gonna last.

Our special reactions are the third layer, Lasrifles aren't scary in return fire but supporting fire lets you move them a little and return fire with nearby artillery which IS scary. While aux also have a movement phase reaction that gives you a 5++ if you blob up. Do NOT do this if your opponents artillery still lives, you're asking to get shot at.

4th and most important layer is straight up redundancy. "So what if you wiped 20 lasrifles, thats literally less than a minimum tac squad, I have like 140 more."

All your shit is extremely points efficient for what you get, lasrifles are paying 4 points per wound while at best marines are paying 10.

Biggest threat to aux infantry is volume of fire so if your running lots of infantry you'll want thst dead first, your tanks are tougher than marine equivalents anyway so they'll last a little longer to most enemy shooting, your grunts REALLY won't.

Especially against HBs, do not fuck with those things they kill auxilia more effectively than almost any other weapon and are dirt cheap for what they do to you.

>>96360549
NTA but should superheavy transports be considered?
e.g the crassus, 350pts (can fit 2 in a 3k game), 14/13/12, superheavy, 12HP, transports 35 men which can be 2 blocks of 15 men+command if you wanted to
no infantry transport either so can drop a fuck load of ogyrns into the fight
or cyclops demolition vehicles

>>96360159
To expand, if you're deep striking - add a particle shredder and pretend it's an upgrade to the plasma cannon that turns it into a flamer and not a second weapon.

>>96360596
>cyclops demolition vehicles
Unfathomably based, you should absolutely do this at least once.

I cannot recommend the Crassus for regular games tho as you can move almost the same number of bodies with 2 Demolisher Dracos which hit harder, are tougher and can deploy to different parts of the map simultaneously.

Between the T5, the W4 and the 5+++ Ogryn are honestly tough enough to footslog, they're more of a countercharge unit than a charge unit anyway. An Ogryn Crassus Strugglebus would be a lot of fun but it ain't an effective use of you're points, do not be seduced by a Ghetto melee deathstar, you're playing 30k guard now thats not how you work.

>>96355738
Lolberterians are a joke

>>96357666
Kino and big brain pilled

My list right now has a pair of Vet Assaults with half THs half twin LCs at 365pts each. I have the room to upgrade one to a Praetorian jump squad, which most of the benefit is 2+ Armour. It's 420 points but I can simply have one squad more ornate than the other. It's a lot but 2+ armor is pretty rare this edition

Someone on my command team is up to no good...

I'm gonna play Titanicus today

>>96360950
This seems like Traitor jargon . . .

>>96359304
I want the theme being scythes being good lmao
>>96359256
>But uuuhhh you keep youe pistol with the scythe?
If they were +5 pts over a power weapon instead of +10 (so, same as TH), and it was A+2 instead of Reaping, then I don't think anyone could ask for more AP or damage anymore
I know unconditional +2A is a lot, but the fluff says a scythe allowed them to fight multiple people all at once, but changes to Reaping make you wait until your unit starts dying before it activates, like some anime power up. Even 10 Tacticals don't outnumber 5 Deathshroud.

Or maybe the problem is reaping itself, to be honest. Idk if Custodes or Space Wolves have any complaints about it

>>96360950
What am I looking at

Do I honestly give 3.0 a try. I hate the flavor they took away.

>>96361163
The code words in the orders for a military exercise.

>>96361167
Just play whatever your group plays

>>96360486
Most of /40kg/ plays Iron Warriors.

saw pic related just now

do CSM bodies actually make solid bases for SoH reavers?

>>96361167
Legacies added it all* back in!
*actually allness may vary

I just finished reading the damnation of Pythos. What the fuck is this book even about? Why the fuck is it in the HH series?

>>96359893
I reject your 3.0 reality and substitute my objectively correct one.

>>96361395
Possible fluff hook on why nids came in our galaxy. It's a 40k nid book disguised as a 30k one.

>>96361418
what are you confusing the book with Pharos?

>>96361411
So why aren't they in the rules now

>>96361441
They are so ass that my mind mixes them up.

>>96361480
You should just think of regular ass.

>>96361461
nta, but it's because GW doesn't wnat people playing the HH with their 40k minis, or the other way around.
In fact, the game has never got actual Imperial Army rules. Militia are third rate troops like PDF or cultists.

But in the books the army has Chimeras and other vehicles. Even the Taurox appears in the Siege of Terra books

>>96361461
Same reason a lot of things even in current fluff existing during 30k don't have rules.

>>96361514
>GW doesn't wnat people playing the HH with their 40k minis
unless they use Hammerfall Bunkers or Field Ordnance Batteries for some reason

Is Path of Heaven well-regarded? 'Cause the void battle scene just makes my brain go foggy, it's been three chapters in a row like that while major characters are getting ready for war or potentially major plot lines are shown (I think the webway is mentioned pretty explicitly for the first time in any of the books I've read so far).

>>96361650
Legends don't count.

>>96361650
Tells you how well those minis sold

>>96361514
Give us the army GW, we KNOW what they used to wear.

>>96361461
Because visions change for various reasons. The imperial army used to just be literally the guard, then they decided it should look different, and the modern guard aesthetic came later. How much of that is genuine creative vision, driven by "isnt it a bit weird and silly if the modern guard are just using the same stuff they had in the great crusade" and how much of that is "we need new models for the new game" is up to you to speculate. Maybe its something else entirely.

But the aesthetic conceptions have shifted over time, the SA aesthetic didnt exist until it did, and then it got developed and new elements came out.

>>96361365
Where is that head from? Looks great!

>>96361718
Question about Daemons in HH: is there any real difference between them other than nomenclature?

>>96361788
its one of the character series heads

>>96361339
Besides their trait and hammer, 3.0 IW fucking suck

>>96361816
Do you happen to know which one?

>>96361816
You mean one of the Praetors, or what?

>>96361693
During winter campaigns.

>>96361677
>Legends
TOURIST ALERT
TOURIST ALERT

>>96361828
No, its from the series of head batches they released. I have the same one (if painted a lot worse).

>>96361825
Since I got it from very official sources? I dont remember. Sorry.

>>96361677
>Legends

>>96361855
>HE DIDN'T USE THE APPROPRIATE TERM!

>>96361871
>why do you care about the HH in the HH general?

>>96361884
>why do you care about the Warhammer The Horus Heresy in Warhammer The Horus Heresy general?
FTFY, secondary.

>>96361861
Oh, gotcha. I thought you meant like a particular character.

"Legiones Astartes – Character Heads Upgrade Set 1"

>>96361902
>muh secondary
fuck off, 40k tourist

>>96361968
uh oh, tertiary melty

Managed to purchase a Solar Auxilia Battlegroup - plans are now in motion!

Need to determine my scheme now

>>96361982
Are you doing a legion Auxilia or an independent Cohort?

>>96361994
Independent. I did think about making them allies for a little while, but I don't want to paint another chevron ever again.

>Retards in this thread are seriously glazing 6 Lascannon shots for 400 fucking points when the Kratos exists and isnt even particularly good
What is even happening here.

>>96362119
The power of nogames

>>96361871
That response makes it worse. You know that makes it worse?

>>96362119
>when the Kratos exists and isnt even particularly good
The kratos is hideously undercosted what the actual fuck are you talking about

>>96362196
>>96362119
The truth is between these two statements. Kratos is undercosted and can be used well to compound the issue. A handful of lascannons aren't great on move, but stationary and during reactions they can get spicy. 30k has a lot of hard counters and diverse options so people get stuck on "well the perfect rock exists to this scissor." and convos get stuck in a spiral of perfect what-if that rarely meets practical application.

This mostly is due to lack of games played and witnessed. And hhg never learned how to properly screen at the basic level.

>local warhammer store's 30k stock is just dreadnoughts abd tacticals
They know their audience alright

Hey gang anyone know if the Gorgon shoulder pads are interchangeable with old termi-scaled shoulders? Planning to run a squad of 10 as alpharius bodyguards and want to get some alpha legion shoulders to replace the iron hands sigil. I offer you this picture of my cat as a trade for this information.

>>96362237
>And hhg never learned how to properly screen at the basic level.
So real. I know deepstrike assault could be oppressive in 2.0, but my main opponent never screened or layered and blobbed up so much I could do such conservative initial placement I never had to worry about closing the gap. I watch batreps and people play too safe with basic units and never sacrifice them when the time is right. Or just run in and pray (which is sometimes based tbf). They would never do well at chess.

>>96362282
Yes. Even Tartaros and Indomitus pads (and Gravis) pads are quite interchangeable. They got roughly the same size and shape shoulder to fit pads from each other.

want to start mechancium, how does the no troops besides tech priests thing work?

Do Solar Auxilia look better in "colorful" paint schemes of the old days or more drab, "modern" schemes like something out of the World Wars? I'm playing around with both in my head to try to play up the steampunk/Dieselpunk look but not too certain personally.

How do you deal with an opponent who insists that your narrative battles "aren't canon" because "imperial fists never fought blood angels in the heresy!!"

>>96362358
1) call him a faggot
2) call him a tranny
3) rape him

>>96362354
Grey and bare metal with other colors is standard, I like the look of the Star Reavers.

>>96362354
Camo fatigues, colored armor

I'm making a new thread

>>96362358
I mean who cares unless he refuses to play? you sad your fan canon isnt real?

>>96362396
Please include Mejiro McQueen this time.

Proceed to the next progressive scoring objective
>>96362431
>>96362431
>>96362431

>>96362196
>280 points for some AP5 shots or an S9 Melta turret
??????? Are you retarded or do you not know how many scoring or specialized units you get for ~300 points?

>>96358823
Mine is done. Time to add some fancy doors and paint it for the IVth.

It's a wee bit bigger than a Phobos.
Are you able to proont one for yourself?

>>96362349

Your primary detachment is basically just HQs, your Magi give two detachments each and your Apexes are really good so just grab Archmagos + his 1-2 flunkies and use those to take all your actual units. It's not that significant a restriction in practice.

We don't have Line, instead any magos/tech-priest will add a line-equivalent to the squads they're embedded in, so it's not like we really need troops to take objectives. The troop tech-priests are points-efficient cybertheurgy, grav-guns and Battlesmith (and strangely, better Chaplains/Overseers than real Chaplains/Overseers, they're superb when attached to allied squads) but they're not something I expect to see in anywhere near every list.

>>96362451
>S9
Nogames

>>96362490
Probably worth taking one regular Tech Priest for a Logistical Benefit so your Prime Cammand slot can be used to give one of your magi an actual buff, right?

>>96361810
In 1.0 you could really go wild with them, modifying stats, special rules and stuff. In 2.0 they lost everything but they gained more gods options.

>>96359100
Glaives at least make sense on ebon keshig, who get it at a pretty wild discount

im thinking of getting into legions imperialis with iron warriors. there is a breatheren of iron detachment that can let me bring le funny automatons. is LI going to get the rest of the hh range with different armour types or is it dead in the water like titanicus. people cant seem to make up their mind with it.