Thread 96482787

Ghost Smut Edition
>What is Exalted?
An epic high-flying role-playing game about reborn god-heroes in a world that turned on them.
Start here:http://theonyxpath.com/category/worlds/exalted/

>That sounds cool, how can I get into it?
Read the 3e core book (link below). For mechanics of the old edition, play this tutorial:http://mengtzu.github.io/exalted/sakuya.html
It’ll get you familiar with most of the mechanics.

>Gosh that was fun. How do I find a group?
Roll20 and the Game Finder General here on /tg/. good luck

>Resources for Third Edition
>3E Core and Splats
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/b54o6teut3fx6/Exalted_3e

>Errata for Third Edition
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3ooTmopm3CBxW5jwPp1761xsaIccea-5XIhVM_PQEc/edit

>Other Ex3 Resources
https://pastebin.com/fG1mLMdu (embed)

>Resources for Older Editions
https://pastebin.com/BXSGuFdQ (embed)

>Current Quixalted Extended QE Version (Fanmade Supplement)
https://files.catbox.moe/rjgmo5.pdf

>Optional Quixalted Exalts
https://www.mediafire.com/file/jg86yrewnhx2ov3/QE_Reject3eExaltHomebrew.pdf/file

>Exalted Demake/Black Vault (Now with updates):
https://pastebin.com/Tt1PjuYt (embed)
https://pastebin.com/qHRW9N51 (embed)

>collection of Exalted Hacks
https://pastebin.com/gtZnycJs (embed)

>stuff that might be interesting
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/the-exalted-thread-with-no-original-ideas.317216/

Last thread:>>96441763
>THREAD QUESTIONS
>When was the last time your character fucked a ghost?
>How do you use the underworld at your table and what changes have you made to it?

1e Lunars were beyond time.

>>96482787 (OP)
Do Abyssals count?

>>96483343
>Do Abyssals count?
Sure, Why not?

>>96483343
I don't know why but the lunar template really feels like a shit post.

Lorewise, can a ghost conceive a ghost child?
Can a living and a dead have a child together?
Would the child be a ghost or a living?

>>96484648
There is a drug for that from what I remember. Some kind of tea in case you have a ghost waifu.

>>96484648
I don't think ghosts can have children with each other but they can have children with the living making ghostblooded a kind of godblooded.

>>96484779
Yes. Per the past sources, it also doesn't happen with sex, but with a kiss to the living would-be mother.

>>96485247
Wait.

If conception does't happen because of sex, does it mean that a virgin mother is possible?

That there is no way to know for certain if the ghost father is a male, a female, or a weird, non identifiable sex.

>>96485297
>If conception does't happen because of sex, does it mean that a virgin mother is possible?
>That there is no way to know for certain if the ghost father is a male, a female, or a weird, non identifiable sex.
Yes, same as with all spirits. Just like how Wood Spiders and Munaxes can have kids with humans.

Does anyone have a link to that old forum thread that gave a breakdown of combat between exalts of different levels, Frost Peony, Invincible Sword Princess, etc? I'm introducing the game to a friend of mine and I want some examples of the power disparity between different exalts.

>>96485350
Ghosts are a bit of a special case on account of being dead. There's a special Arcanos that they had to use to conceive children; it can work for any ghost, but the mother has to be mortal, god-blooded, Exalted or what have you.

>>96484365
Considering Grabowski's comments, they likely were, a lot of problems were deliberate, and the devs go out of their way to screw Lunars.

It is also possible that Grabowski's vision of them just wasn't functional, but no dev would ever admit it.

>>96485929
Technically 1e Lunars were entirely functional and the vision worked. There wasn't anything that said they had to be as good as Solars or peer to Sidereals, or even anywhere near their level. Nothing at that time made them out to be successful in their antagonism against civilization or peer powers to the Realm. The idea of a 'Celestial Exalt' was not codified. The problem is that it didn't fit the fanbase that Exalted developed, who did want an all-round power fantasy of some kind from every splat, and who did think in terms of Solar/Celestial/Terrestrial power levels with everyone within their bracket roughly on par.

>>96485929
Also worth noting that the original Charms writer became incredibly ill and had to back out, leaving the Dragon-Blooded Charm authors to do the job with little time left. I guess they had to fall back on a lot of their earlier work (though that still doesn't justify writing the elaborate justification for the Charm's existence into its text with little in the way of how to visualize it or what it really does).

>>96485953
>Please understand we had to make Lunars a splat with a single charm, to avoid power creeping Solars.
>You don't understand, we had to make Sidereals power creep Solar, and the meta game.
>Also, after some thought we decided that Lunars shouldn't have access to the power-meta game abilities know as SMAs, so we are errating them in the players guide.

>>96485980
According to Grabowski every problem was deliberate, like the lack of appearance charms or the exp costs.

>>96485980
Also, Holden hunted down proto Lunars manuscripts, it is no different from the final product.
So it wasn't really a rush job.

>>96485953
>The idea of a 'Celestial Exalt' was not codified

It totally was. The combat system just started feeling clunky to GCG at some point, likely the Lunar playtest where they killed a bunch of extras without a mass combat system, as Power Combat was developed and refined by the time Sidereals was coming out. That's why we got tweaking in minimum damage and other variables that hadn't been approached before in Violet Bier of Sorrows Style. I believe one of the writers confirmed as much for the timing back on the forums of yore.

>>96485987

Those were only two problems, and ultimately very superficial compared to the other conceptual ones.

>>96485993

The hammering out of the Charms was, apparently. Though that's probably more a matter of some that had their effects borked by technical errors and another copy pass edit that wouldn't change much, like the mangled text of Body Breaking Kata, or Flowing Body Evasion being Simple instead of Reflexive.

>>96485994
>It totally was.
The idea of a Celestial Exalt was out there in the lore, but by being not codified I meant they hadn't worked out exactly what it would mean balance-wise and they definitely hadn't worked out the kinks. They definitely hadn't decided that Sidereals and Lunars should be on-par yet.

>>96486013
If they were going by the information in the glossary as a design goal, they definitely had decided that Lunars and Sidereals shouldn't overshadow each other.

>>96485998
>Those were only two problems, and ultimately very superficial compared to the other conceptual ones.
>We don't want to give Lunars social charms, because social characters are too civilised.
>Small problem.
>Non-conceptual problem.
Next level bait.

>>96486013
The power levels were codified, we have sidebars talking about them.
"Lunars were meant to have powerful but limited charms, and social focused Lunars capping around the dragon blooded levels of competence".

>>96485998
It is isn't the execution, or editorial problems.

There were never other plans for Lunars, what they published was what they envisioned for them.
1e!Lunars are mostly consistent through 1e's publications, even the ones from before their release.
The only inconsistency is the lack of illusion charms.

>>96487065
>You now realize that Lunars getting the exclusive opportunity to have their own graces and Shape is where 1e squared the circle around illusion charms and not the weird cope Grabowski had about "illusions" being so abstract it just means having a snake for a hand.

>>96485987
>Ahlat realistically is 3CD tier, but we wrote him as being Essence 7 and obviously not even close to 3CD tier even though we did write 3CD tier threats and uhm...
>How did the Exalted fight in the Primordial War if the Primordials were all the size of planets? well they were all essence 10 and everyone had an N/A warstrider and Unconquered Sun/Luna/Maidens all spent every day buffing them obviously. and this was never alluded to because...uhm...
>Heh well illusions can mean more than just simple D&D illusions...btw no social charms for Lunars
genuinely think a lot of the problems attributed to grabowski are actually just him covering for other people and not wanting to admit the gameline went in a bad direction.

>>96488804
Essence 7 is exactly where Ahlat should be, the way Essence 7 spirits are depicted in terms of mechanics the issue.

>>96482787 (OP)
Pubes status on your current PC, /exg/?

Who has the biggest dick in canon and why is it Luna?

>>96490200
I vaguely remember something about Malfeas having a skyscraper sized dick, and ancient jokes about mount menu being Gaia's clitoris.

>>96490200
Nah, it clearly belongs to Jupiter. It even needs 4 fucking rings

>like a quarter of all lore is dedicated to wanking first age artifacts and their consequences
>people still make characters with 0 Craft
Explain this to me.

>>96490504
When was the last time you saw an anime where crafting was relevant?

>>96490527
I literally posted it.

>>96490536
Yeah but "people" haven't watched that.

>>96490527
Saint Seya, KnY, Bleach and KGB.

But with the exception of KGB, they are kind of antithesis of Exalted's artifacts.

>>96490504
WTF dude?

The Chinese subtitle in your pic have absolutely zero to do with the English caption.

The Chinese text say "You know, this is extremely troublesome?" (非常麻烦,你知道吗). But your English text say "I love magic sword".

This is like, Hitler's breakdown level of translation.

>>96490763
Woah, is that true?

>>96490763
Considering the eyes, it is the reverse morality meme.

>>96490504
>Explain this to me.
Two main reasons:
The good artifacts of the First Age that get wanked a lot are better than the shit you make in the Age of Sorrows. They're made by elders and are supposedly still relevant at that scale - in the lore, it is expected that the artifact 5 that the elder solar makes is going to be a big deal to him, and a decisive tool in his arsenal. With the craft rules as-written it's impossible to compete until the lategame, where because the artifacts have been scaled for the use of chargen characters the artifacts turn out to be mechanically useless.
The second reason is that downtime isn't guaranteed. Sorcery and artifice would outpace everything else if they had unlimited time and resources to work but they don't so they don't.

uuuuuhhhhh need a big tiddy abyssal...............

>>96490763
It's presumably a joke. The guy in the picture has a bunch of magic swords sealed away, he tries to keep them away from wrong hands, he's kind of mad about other people's obsession about magic swords and he does not, in fact, love magic swords at all.

We need something where the Abyssals manage to kill the Ebon Dragon in order to unleash an ultimate death beast upon creation. They could trick some solars into finally him him only to unlock the tomb moments after.

>>96492101
This sounds like a reference to something. It also sounds really goddamn stupid. Part 1 we already have something approximating via the Engine of Extinction / Onceborn. Part two doesn't make any sense, which is to say that Solars are suddenly involved for no goddamn reason and unlocking tombs doesn't seem very relevant when the Neverborn are their tombs and none of the exalted have special unlocking permissions even if they were contained inside the tombs and ready to spring out to destroy Creation or something instead.

>>96490504
I really feel like every single ability should have a variation of Glorious Solar Sabre, where you can make your own evocations for it and shit. Otherwise SO MUCH of the upper end Solar fantasy relies on Craft.

>>96493241
Never not going to be salty that Solar War can't do anything without some amount of investment into the command merit while Solar Sail has charms that are useful if you never set foot on a boat and Abyssal War allows you to straight up raise the dead.

>>96492977
>>96492101
nta but Ebon Dragon becoming either something way lesser or something way greater from being rendered into a Neverborn isn't that bad of an idea - it first showed up in ROTSE but the idea has been there for a while, inspired by Ebon Dragon in WoD.

>>96493260
Becoming the embodiment of Yin sounds like a very likely outcome but it's one of those things where there isn't all that much to do afterwards.

>>96493257
Apparently the old niche of solar war will become a SMA

>while Solar Sail has charms that are useful if you never set foot on a boat
This is to avoid the Aquaman syndrome.

>>96493312
>This is to avoid the Aquaman syndrome.
So what of Dawns with Supernal War but who currently don't have access to a battlegroup they can command? You could give theym charms to embody the archtypical general or even ones that buff allies.

>>96493327
>So what of Dawns with Supernal War but who currently don't have access to a battlegroup they can command? You could give theym charms to embody the archtypical general or even ones that buff allies.
Despite 3e charm bloat, Solar war is notoriously incomplete.
And 3e original nu-devs decided to not port omni combat hydra.

Yes, you have to homebrew to fix it.

>>96493327
I'm sure there is at least one charm line for buffing circle mates. If Pathfinder can do it, Exalted devs didn't bother to compare notes.

>>96493241
>Otherwise SO MUCH of the upper end Solar fantasy relies on Craft.
The upper end Solar fantasy for literally any ability doesn't have any artifacts in it, even golden glowing ones made of your own anima.

>>96493671

This one comment made me want to see Owlcat make an Exalted game. On the other hand holy crap I just imagined how silly the cast of Exalted would look in a video game at this point.

>>96493936
The Exalted premise is just to jank for that kind of game.

>>96493936
>On the other hand holy crap I just imagined how silly the cast of Exalted would look in a video game at this point.
Why? The cast of an exalted would be pretty "banal", even if it was released by the early 2000s.

>>96482787 (OP)
What are the most important things to remember when dealing with ghosts and/or necromancy? What about creating new necromancy spells?

Retarded question about withering/decisive attacks in ExEss:

Does whiffing the damage roll of a decisive attack cost all power wagered or just one? Since missing a decisive attack only costs 1 power instead of all even if you happen to miss I imagined it's the same for the damage stage right?

>>96482787 (OP)
What have you done with ghost-blooded? Have you ever had a ghost-blooded PC, or any other kind of God-Blooded for that matter?

>>96494487
Just try to keep it in theme and pretty much everything else should be fine.

>>96494487
That necromancy/the underworld is a tumor in reality.
Ghosts might be benevolent, but their overall nature is antithetical to creation.
Each necromancy spell cast should make the world a little bit worse, even if used with good intentions.
Just follow this general vibe.

>>96497208
Exactly. You should keep a Saturday morning cartoon villain mentality at all times. Everything you do with Necromancy should be needlessly sadistic and awful. Don't do anything helpful or constructive, just spit curses and torture souls and foul up everything around you. It's the only reason you took up Necromancy, seeing as it's a shittier version of Sorcery with worse spells and Workings rules, being a complete asshole towards everything and everyone is the only thing that makes Necromancy worthwhile to you.

>>96497208
None of this is true.

>>96497892
>Underworld is a tumor
Is it not? It's literally rot that is trying to engulf creation proper and will kill everything.
>Ghost might be benevolent
Also correct some ghosts are good people individually.
>They are antithetical to creation
Also correct ghosts have a hard time in creation as normal people have problem in the underworld they are antithetical to each other.
>Each necromancy spell makes the world a little worse
Also correct all necromancy spells are bad hell where are the I bless crops necromancy spell or water purification or other beneficial stuff?
All necromancy does is bring destruction to the world one way or another.

In 3e time is whimy and the underworld existed for even longer then the primordials, it just took one of them dying to find it. In 2e ghosts have been around since the lethe was a thing, if not before, and even the sun has its own special type of undead. One interesting thing are lethe ghosts, where upon the separation of the higher and lower soul the higher soul hands around for three days, slowly losing color and sending a message to the most important person in their life. What other types of pre-neverborn ghosts there are I have no idea but I'm sure they're around.

>>96497921
>Also correct all necromancy spells are bad hell where are the I bless crops necromancy spell or water purification or other beneficial stuff?
>All necromancy does is bring destruction to the world one way or another.
And that is why Necromancy blows ass and is entirely unfun and uninspiring, on top of being mechanically hobbled.

>>96498098
What are you basing the idea of 2E havibg had ghosts as long as Lethe was a thing on? At least in 1E it explicitly wasn't the case, with ghosts starting to linger when the Underworld was born, and I don't remember 2E changing that.

>>96498098
>In 3e time is whimy and the underworld existed for even longer then the primordials, it just took one of them dying to find it.
They changed it?
That's retarded.
1e nailed it in the first try; the neverborn died and fucked the whole reincarnation system, creating the underworld and giving birth to the possibility of people failing to reincarnate and instead becoming ghosts.
What's with 3e's obsession with making a bunch of dumb, unnecessary changes?
I guess to make everything more numinous?
"No the underworld already existed before the primordials created everything from chaos how? I dunno
No, the incarna created exaltation without the help of autocton how? I dunno
Also, they didn't create the exigency they had to go to the wyld to find it why? I dunno
Also DBs have sentient cum that only loses it's power when they impregnate someone instead of every time they masturbate as logic would dictate how? I dunno
Also the wyld didn't infect Lunars they decided to fuck their own castes why? I dunno

>>96498244
What is it with some people apparently blindly believing whatever they hear on /exg/? 3E Abyssals says that the Underworld was created by the deaths of the Neverborn, just as it was in the previous editions.

>>96498265
>3E Abyssals says that the Underworld was created by the deaths of the Neverborn, just as it was in the previous editions.
lol Why would an anon come here just to lie?
I don't get it
Is he the underworld apologist that wants people to think the underworld is actually cool and not inherently bad?

>>96498275
Who the fucks's the "Underworld apologist", and why would someone who wants to make the Underworld seem cool lie like that? The most likely explanation is just that anon confuses actual published material with scrapped ideas devs might've had at some point and with other Internet discussions.

>>96497921
The Underworld is the echo of Creation, a spiritual land shaped by the beliefs and culture of the living. It has no inherent will or ability to engulf the world any more than rampant desertification caused by human farming does; this is why the Neverborn need Deathknights and Deathlords to kill Creation. Otherwise, it would simply be a matter of waiting. Likewise, ghosts aren't "antithetical" to Creation; they're either higher souls that haven't moved on yet or lower souls that haven't been properly put to rest. Your average ancestor cult does not damn the world anymore than worshiping a corrupt god does.

Necromantic spells likewise are only as "bad" as the wielder is, same as sorcery. Saying each casting of a necromantic spell "makes the world worse" is about as silly of a statement as "every casting of Death of Obsidian Butterflies makes the world worse."

>>96497921
>all necromancy spells are bad
This is disproven as easily as pointing out that necromancy and sorcery share spells. If Summon Ghost secretly deprecates the world then sorcery is corrupt too.

>>96498322
>>96498349
You're full of shit because you can't go half a page without tripping over a Necromancy spell that is only useful to curse someone, kill someone, poison someone, torture someone, deceive someone, cuck someone, raise undead, pollute the landscape around you and generally be a one-dimensional cartoon villain who only exists to kill, torture and destroy just to be a douche. Contrast with the sheer breadth of utility you get from Sorcery and it just gets pathetic.

>>96498396
I can't really go a few pages without finding a sorcery spell intended to be used as a weapon, a curse, an illusion meant to deceive, etc.

>>96498396
As a reminder, 100% of Void Circle necromancy spells are written by Deathlords, 90% of Labyrinth Circle necromancy spells are written by Deathlords and 90% of the rest are written by First Age Solars high on the Great Curse crazy enough to undergo necromantic initiation despite their very comfortable life, with only a very small fraction being written by hekatonkhire, nephwracks, and young First Age Solars who, again, would've been crazy enough to go necromancy despite already having very comfortable lives.

Of the shadowlands circle necromancy a large portion is likely going to have been made by the Deathlords, because their is no salinan working equivalent for necromancy. You need direct tutoring and empowerment to get into it, and most of that comes from the established and exceptionally evil great powers of the Underworld who would prefer the power of necromancy be kept firmly under their control, since it's pretty specialized in fucking over and controlling their own forces.

Necromancy doesn't need to be fundamentally evil when necromancers have historically been bad enough to explain the spell list's bias.

>>96498462
Point is, Necromancy sucks and is boring and gay and lame.

>>96498478
You're not wrong, but if someone wants to homebrew spells that make it less one-note and ass I say let them, so long as balance and themes are maintained otherwise.

>>96498506
Never said otherwise. I'm all for it in fact.

>>96498396
>raise undead...

Undead can be utilitarian in application in ways that don't make the world worse - a necromancer could defend a village from bandits using corpses rather than conscripts who'll be killed horribly, zombies can be made to do physical labor to shore up shortages on the living end, and ghosts or other intelligent undead can tutor the living without horrible negative consequences. You won't get that kind of flexibility out of a blood ape.

>>96498506
>You're not wrong, but if someone wants to homebrew spells that make it less one-note and ass I say let them, so long as balance and themes are maintained otherwise
The problem is one of scaling, not of power levels but of thematics.

Sorcery is already broad, spooky and "amoral"; you can summon demons with it with no problems (aside from the social ones). Than they created the dark arts version of it (a.k.a. necromancy) with no room to breath, since Sorcery is already spooky and very broad.

>>96499465
This is why Essence and Demake both decided that an overlapping core spell list with sorcery/necromancy-only effects off to the side was a good idea, yes. There is literally no reason for sorcery vs necromancy to have niche protection but developers historically wrote as if there was.

Haven't seen it mentioned here much, but picrel is pretty good inspiration for a Dragon-Blooded chronicle taking place in the Realm Civil War.

>>96499325
>You could indirectly create a shadowland and it won't have negative consequences

>>96500055
It is a portal to free real state.

>>96500055
>You could indirectly create a shadowland and it won't have negative consequences
Necromancers aren't any more likely to indirectly create shadowlands than anybody else. It's just as easy to make a shadowlands by summoning a demon army as it is a zombie army - easier, even, since demons are hard to control. In fact, if anything, necromancers are less likely to accidentally make it happen compared to almost any other group because they're more interested in the phenomena and better informed on it.

They're more likely to directly create shadowlands, because shadowlands are useful and necromancers are more likely to be amoral asshats, but that's a separate issue from the ethics of necromancy itself. Shadowlands aren't as easily made as leaking a bunch of death-attuned essence somewhere, at most that makes death-aspected demesnes that could have manses built on them that create shadowlands.

>>96500143
Shadowlands are inherently bad though.

Only now I noticed that Yurgen's exaltation was a reference to gods of the north/the frost giant's daughter.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gods_of_the_North

>>96500143
heavy use of necromancy does engender the existence of shadowlands in all 3 editions tho.

What are your thoughts on 3e Abyssals so far?

>>96503023

Man it annoys me for as long as i've played Exalted not once has it ever been portrayed in a way that feels like a conan or sword and sorcery game.

>>96503494
Solars are too powerful for it, Dragon-Blooded too, they may be like it very early on, but as they ramp up in power, attempts of making them into S&S heroes get silly.

Powers are just ways that a character interact with the world around them, and the way a character interacts with the world is what defines a story.
The power of the Exalted isn't fit for a Howard's story.

>>96503494
Just use WoD Dark Ages or D&D for that kind of stuff.The power floor of Playable Exalted is Elric Of Melnibone.

>>96503737
>The power floor of Playable Exalted is Elric Of Melnibone.
How strong was he? I know that multiverses are involved

>>96504167
NTA I'm not an expert but her is a sword and sorcery level dude with some magic.
Depending on the situation he can be a bit stronger and faster than peak human.
But he is also fragile.
The multiverse is involved because he travels to paralel dimentions but he isn't like opening gates to parallel worlds at will or anything its special circumstances.
A solar with mild combat investment would floor him.

>>96490200
Being able to take the form of any E9 being in existence means you automatically encompass any potential E9 being the devs have decided own the “My dick is always bigger than yours” Charm.

Alas, it still loses in a dice threshold comparison with the Unconquered Sun’s dick as long as he doesn’t suppress Conviction unless it has it’s own “no u” threshold success rules.

>>96490288
Technically Yozis are disqualified because their equivalent of dicks are geomantic leyline nexuses that carry Essence instead of semen. So even if Gaia whips out her unholy futa cock, it’s less of a cock than Luna’s.

>>96490504
>engaging with the Craft system in any edition
That is why.

>>96492101
Doesn’t have to be Abyssals desu, RotSE said one possibility for the Ebon Dragon dropping dead is the Dragon That Was becoming the first fully lucid Neverborn and leading his brethren out of the Underworld on a path of conquest.

Good fucking luck statting fights with multiple Neverborn lmao. Get ready to whip out those Scion books and replace ludicrously high DEX pools with ludicrously high “First (Neverborn) Excellency” pools.

>>96493312
>the old niche of solar war
Wot
Fucking WOT?

>>96504167
>How strong was he?
About as strong as a heroic mortal with a lot of social backgrounds and artefacts.

>>96500015
>Basilisk
Damn, it’s been a while. These days every time I think about comparing an old anime to 3e, instead of feeling inspired like I was for 1e/2e I just can’t get over what a watered down pale imitation of it 3e is.

>>96500125
>creating shadowlands is actually a real estate scam by nephracks and ghosts to drive up property values in Creation
>The Deathlords are basically a very large Home Owner’s Association
>The Neverborn are gigantic real estate firms
That’s it, I’ve never been more convinced that Oblivion and the Underworld are ontologically evil.

>>96493257
>Never not going to be salty that Solar War can't do anything without some amount of investment into the command merit
That's not true, though; you can always quickly train peasants into tiger warriors or lead whoever is on your side and buff them with war.
That's the whole niche of Solars being able to raise armies of the best soldiers in the world in a few weeks.
If anything, being able to arm them decently might be more difficult, but that's what twilights are for.

>>96503494
I feel that 1e comes the closest, and even then it’s dependent on you and the ST being willing to just ignore the existence of certain things to enable a loner of great mirth and melancholy to fight his way across Creation.

>>96503737
…that is a really weird way to put it even though I kind of know what you mean, I feel that Elric is less powerful than the Exalted for like 70% of his story and then for the remaining 30% he suddenly pulls out magic outshining most non-Elder Essence Charms.

>>96505485
Nta but let me put it this way: Compare the vast array of things that Melee, Lore, Athletics and Stealth can do. Then compare them to Tiger Warriors + battle leadership buffs.

It would just be nice if Solar War was as cool as other abilities when Solars were supposed to be the premier generals of the Primordial War, just saying.

>>96505434
>Wot
>Fucking WOT?
The omni tactical battle hydra.
Now it will be a SMA.
2e war also had a "legendary size" negator.

>Dawn King’s Strife

>Cost:—;
>Mins:War 4, Essence 3;
>Type:Permanent
>Keywords:Mirror (Ash Child’s Requiem), Native
>Duration:Permanent
>Prerequisite Charms: Elegant Dance of Bow and Blade

>Locked away in the insane prison of their King’s body, the Yozis dream, and their sleep is troubled with nightmares of the Bronze Tigers. All too well, they remember the futility of opposing the blades of the Unconquered Sun, and they know that there is nothing—in Creation or beyond—that is not a weapon in the hands of the Dawn Caste. The character may cross-apply his Archery, Martial Arts, Melee, Thrown and War Excellencies. For example, the Solar might use his First War Excellency to organize a coordinated attack upon an Abyssal Exalt, and then in the very next tick use that Excellency to boost his Melee Parry DV against the deathknight’s attack. This benefit also applies to the character’s Infinite (Ability) Mastery, (Ability) Essence Flow, and Supreme Perfection of (Ability) Charms for the aforementioned Abilities. It is specifically incompatible with Divine Transcendence of (Ability).
>New Abyssal Charm:Ash Child’s Requiem (Prerequisite:Ever-Ready Killer’s Tools).
>This Charm is identical to its Solar counterpart, save that it is incompatible with Apocalyptic Evolution of (Ability).

It's 3e, nothing matters beyond getting the ambush off.

>>96505499
It might have to do with themes. What other niches could solars bring to war?
For example raising skeletons is easy to come up with for abyssals.
And empowering personal champions is something prescence already has.

>>96505485
People meant stuff like this.

>Behemoth-Slaying Attitude

>Cost: 7m
>Mins: War 5, Essence 5
>Type: Reflexive
>Keywords: Combo-OK, Mirror (Filling the Elephants’ Graveyard), War
>Duration: One scene
>Prerequisite Charms: Mob-Dispersing Rebuke

>It is the lot of Solars to stand before the titans and their creations, and to be unafraid—they were made to kill giants.
>The Solar sets herself into a battle rhythm which causes larger opponents to expose their weak points and get in their own way as they attempt to destroy her; their strength becomes her own. Any warstrider-sized or larger opponent suffers a -3 external penalty on all attempts to strike the Lawgiver, while her own blows ignore half the target’s soak and raise the minimum damage of successful attacks by two. The Solar also ignores any Magnitude advantages enjoyed by opponents who are consid.ered to be solo mass combat units due to their vast size, such as Juggernaut. Finally, if facing landscape-scale opponents (such as Mount Mostath or Mother Bog), the Solar may always use that opponent’s own bulk as a point of concealment permitting her to attempt to re-establish surprise.
>At War 6+, Essence 6+, while this Charm is active the Solar lowers by one mote (to a minimum of one mote) the cost of all Charms which create undodgeable attacks or cause attacks to be undodgeable, so long as those attacks are directed sole.ly at warstrider-sized or larger opponents.
>New Abyssal Charm: Filling the Elephants’ Graveyard (Prerequisites: Morale-Shattering Method).

>>96505524
Magical battle formations temporarily giving battlegroups supernatural powers might be cool. Or extending the effects of some, obviously not all, Solar Charms to affect battlegroups - let there be a version of Glorious Solar Saber called Glorious Geenral's Arsenal or whatever that lets you arm your BG of peasants with weapons made of solid sunlight, let your archers attack as if There Is No Wind, stuff like that.

>>96505460
no one can resist the siren call of free land

>>96505508
>”legendary size” negator
I am once again assmad that every Exalt does not have a legendary size negator Charm in every combat ability. Artificial difficulty to make elephants more dangerous to Exalts than ghosts should not exist, and if it does every combat-capable Exalt should have the means to tell that to fuck off.

>>96505524
>What other niches
Bruh, look at how many niches solars brought to the abilities I mentioned. I feel that’s not the issue at all. Especially not after seeing how Abyssal War was executed in 3e.

>>96505703
The insatiable hunger for rental inflows is what will doom Creation to becoming the Shattered Annex, and eventually the Old World of Darkness.

>>96505521
Ironically, this actually makes the game a lot more interesting to engage with. Suddenly a lot more skills are relevant for combat because you never know what might open someone up to an ambush.

>>96505428
Or maybe having sex involves failing a roll to resist orgasming, so the sun has been perpetually blue balled for thousands of years while the Ebon Dragon laughs at his incredible design.

>>96498349
and if you'd actually read the spells you'd know the processes are different for the 2 versions.
both have the same name for ease of recognition.

>>96505439
>About as strong as a heroic mortal with a lot of social backgrounds and artefacts.
So, as strong as the Scarlet Empress pre-Dynasty Charms? Because being a Dragonblood had nothing to do with her power, it was all social backgrounds and artifacts.

>>96506186
>and if you'd actually read the spells you'd know the processes are different for the 2 versions.
The sorcery version is no less evil than the necromancy version dumbass.

>>96506032
>Or maybe having sex involves failing a roll to resist orgasming, so the sun has been perpetually blue balled for thousands of years
The roll is Temperance and this is the real reason he's been suppressing it for so long, rather than the Games of Divinity.

>>96506306
Now this is one of the few things I get confused about or more than likely I misremember. I always thought Sol was banging Luna, all five maidens, and maybe the gaia's jotunn soul.

>>96506610
That's just memes. The Unconquered Sun gets glorified by a lot of people as the most extreme version of a curseless Solar, and he's surrounded by hot and powerful ladies. Exalted fans tend to be horny. It's not difficult to do the math, but nothing's made explicit or even really implied canonically.

>>96506032
On the one hand, theoretically the Sun’s constantly maintained Temperance should prevent him from even desiring the carnal pleasure of sex at all. So in theory, the only time blueballing should even be an issue to the Sun is if he suppresses Temperance-at which point he has more immediate problems from the loss of his invincibility shield. In fact, one could argue the ideal state of sex for the Sun is to bring his partner infinite pleasure while remaining above such irrelevant desires himself.

On the other hand, the Sun has an unspecified number of unique Charms emulating Solar Circle Sorcery-which could theoretically encompass effects outside his panoply that allow himself and a partner to experience an orgasm. It is also canon that all the Incarnae-presumably including the Sun-almost became addicted to sex upon encountering the Algedonic Palace. It is not clear if the Sun suppressed Temperance during this incident (possibly because Luna told him to just fucking chill for once in his existence) or if just like the transcendental bliss of the Games of Divinity can addict even a perfectly temperate non-Primordial mind, the Algedonic Palace is so fucking sexy that it Zealed it’s way through the Sun’s celibacy.

>>96506610
Those are mostly alluded to by the fact that he has Ride specialities for both Luna and Primordial jouten. Which if Ink Monkeys content is to be believed, could honestly just be very literal since at one point the Sun rode Isidoros to knock down an unspecified enemy of the Primordials.

>>96506656
This is why even though I feel that 3e made Aurora male just to subvert expectations/dodge accusations of sexism, I also like to headcanon Aurora as being the most genuinely innocent and chaste of the Incarnae. Whereas the Sun is magnanimously, self-righteously above it all (until he isn’t/the stress of maximum perfection makes him flip out), Aurora would essentially be like the Little Prince but with cosmic divinity. Venus cheerleads you with promises of exciting sexytimes, but Aurora would be like the Simon to your Kamina. And of course, in my headcanon of this throwaway 3e thing that will probably never be elaborated on, all the Incarnae are super protective of their little bro.

…actually fuck since the Little Prince travels between planets apparently under his own power and shows no fear of death, maybe he actually is Incarna level and just very chill about it.

>>96506656
>That's just memes. The Unconquered Sun gets glorified by a lot of people as the most extreme version of a curseless Solar, and he's surrounded by hot and powerful ladies. Exalted fans tend to be horny. It's not difficult to do the math, but nothing's made explicit or even really implied canonically.
There were an indices joking about it.

>>96506853
>This is why even though I feel that 3e made Aurora male just to subvert expectations/dodge accusations of sexism
Explain.

>>96506853
Similar to Nebiru and Jupiter; I think it is to avoid overlap with Venus, since both are associated with dawn and Dunsany's Limpang-Tung, the God of Mirth and of Melodious Minstrels.

Oddly enough they didn't use other Dunsany's gods like Kib, Sish or even Yoharneth-Lahai.

>>96506853
I hate Aurora and all the new incarna because they make no sense or overlap the old ones.
Aurora is just the maiden of serenity.
Besides, I thought the joke was that the unconquered sun was the only male incarna while the rest are female. Hell, before all the tranny shit, Luna was mostly seen as female.

>>96508030
>Besides, I thought the joke was that the unconquered sun was the only male incarna while the rest are female
Oddly enough, all the other males were killed, some after being imprisoned for no reason.
Jupiter may have done it on purpose.

Best Signature DB Charms from each Ability?

>>96482787 (OP)
Well, the campaign that was set to start soon is probably cancelled because some asshole couldn't stop arguing with the ST.

>>96510276
Arguing about what?

>>96506844
>So in theory, the only time blueballing should even be an issue to the Sun is if he suppresses Temperance-at which point he has more immediate problems from the loss of his invincibility shield.
Is the omnipresent instakill ninja in the room with us, anon? The Unconquered Sun suppresses Temperance all the time.

>>96508030
Oh don’t get me wrong, this is all just my headcanon, I absolutely don’t think this was the intended takeaway from the devs and I am just making up something funny to myself. Just as I headcanon Nysela as still thirsting for the Sun even after they retconned her into his daughter without directly addressing her feelings on him.

>>96508066
>The Sun is actually surrounded by yanderes
Grim.

>>96507747
I guess it would be too obvious for them to put a powerful drumming dude somewhere in the setting

>>96508030
>Luna was mostly seen as female
Emphasis on mostly because of her shape shifting. If she is fucking UCS, she probably does it in many different forms.
>>96506853
Honestly, as much as I like the idea of a high end Deity of the northern lights the existing maidens leave her almost no room to develop.

>>96514701
Deity of Norther Lights is fine but probably shouldn't be Incarna-tier. If the idea is that there were once more Incarnae - and I think that idea in itself is completely fine - I'd like them to be something like an Incarna of the sky, or of the deep foundations of Creation, or an Incarna of liminal places-in-between whose task was to be where the other Incarnae were not, or of some weird celestial object that's no longer there but whose wrecked remains might be found hidden away somewhere.

>>96514807
Yeah that's what they were going for with some of the Exigents like the Nebiru and the Umbrals.
The stuff tied to Aurora is fine but it feels the writers are mainly trying to not step in the toes of the existing Exalted by showing where they lost or were treacherous.

>>96514807
>Deity of Norther Lights is fine but probably shouldn't be Incarna-tier
>of some weird celestial object that's no longer there but whose wrecked remains might be found hidden away somewhere.
Maybe the two concepts are connected, the northern lights used to be global before its Incarna died, now it only happens where the Incarna body is.

>>96514878
I think it is to not change the setting.

>were treacherous.
None of the dead trio really were, Nebiru was accused by Jupiter, while Neptune was imprisoned because he was neutral.

>>96514171
There's that piece of lore about Saturn and the inevitable death of the Sun.

>I guess it would be too obvious for them to put a powerful drumming dude somewhere in the setting
Sacheverell is already Sushai.
And the devs already used the five Lords of Darkness from Tanith Lee for the celestial exalted.

>>96482787 (OP)
What do you need to remember when creating a God-Blooded PC in 3e?

>>96515111
Nebiru was, allegedly, about to snitch to the Primordials so he could avoid mutilating himself to empower mortals.
Neptune wanted another race to be target of Exaltation and, probably, got merked for it.
Aurora got the Athena treatment where she died so hard it became a defining plot point for her two Exigents.
The writers want to paint the Incarna in a more greedy light by showing how their dickery still has consequences in the age of sorrows or something along those lines.

>>96515186
>Aurora got the Athena treatment where she died so hard it became a defining plot point for her two Exigents
Hearteaters are proper celestial exalted, but corrupted.

>>96515164
You need to find the rules for them first.

>>96515249
Rules are that you take the Divine Heritage Merit detailed on page 76 of Heirs to the Shogunate.

>>96515207
Similar to the scenario where the UCS was killed resulting in a boost to the sparks of Exaltation.

>>96515164
Mote poll = Essence × 10

>>96510276
Hope it's not my game, it'd be a real bummer if people arguing in vc and not telling me killed it.

>>96515331
>Rules are that you take the Divine Heritage Merit detailed on page 76 of Heirs to the Shogunate.
Sadly that would match mechanics with lore too closely for 3e's taste, and so the Divine Heritage Merit is locked to Exalt-only according to the sidebar in Sidereals. Godblooded are, instead, just a thing that exists with a Essence x 10 mote pool, Exalted Healing, and the higher of Essence or three Eclipse charms appropriate to their lineage.

>>96515164
Make a mortal PC and apply Secret Bloodline Revelation (Sidereals pg209) to make them spirit-descended, with the associated mechanics.

>>96515808

You know I've always ran into the problem that gms have a hard time making non-exalts matter to the story. I feel that by making godbloods not capable of getting that it only confirms to me that the developers only want Exalts to matter.

I guess I could always look at the adversity of the righteous.

>Heard about how the 4/5 of the Maidens are based on the gods from Dunsany's.
>Reading it I found which (Death, Mirth/Serenity, Travels/Journeys and Secrets).
>Also noticed that certain plot points from the Maidens are from GoP too, like the sign of Saturn vs Rakan.
>Finally finished the "sequel".
>Time, the hound of the gods was reworked.
>Before he was prophesied to try to kill the gods, and have a mutual kill Death.
>Now he is their revolted slave.
>He also destroyed their city (Yu-Shan) and is responsible for their deaths.
>Getimian is old English time.
I think I found the origin of the Getimians.

>>96516988
I think the devs are just that incompetent, since they keep talking about making mortals matter.

So, what are some good spells and necromancies for combat?

If the infernals book that comes out one day doesn't reference a youtube channel as inspiration for it I'm going to be pissed. Asmongold is the perfect example of the most disgusting of infernal possible and The Nerd would be a perfect infernal if it wasn't for him clearly being a Solar. Super Mecha Death Christ is peak infernal.

maybe we'll see hazbin hotel being talked mentioned, that would also be cool.

It's funny that in exalted good magic doesn't exist.
Sorcery is amoral and necromancy evil but there is no holy good magic.
I suppose this is truthful to the sword and sorcery genre.

>>96517981
It is more because of the villain protagonist roots of White Wolf.

It isn't uncommon for benevolent gods/magicians to appear in older literature.

>>96518043
Sure but sword and sorcery is generally more about order vs chaos style conflicts than good and evil.
At least stereotypically.

>>96517981
Exalted does have a lot of stuff that's basically just good vs evil. Malfeas, Soulsteel, all that junk. Moral relativity is a joke. The underworld less so given all the ancestor worship and the fact that you can have a pretty great existence down there from what I understand. You just need family to gift you stuff.

>>96518142
>you can have a pretty great existence down there from what I understand.
Being there literally slowly kills you

>>96518095
Only Moorcock, the rest is about adventurers.

The story that gave rise to the genre, "The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save For Sacnoth" by Dunsany, is about a prince getting a dragon-sword to kill a satanic space wizard.

>>96518176
you can't kill a ghost silly. they're ghosts. There are literally undead cities and people trade in the things they're family gave them when they buried them. I'm not sure what happens when you pray and offer sacrifices for your ancestors but I bet that makes their lives easier too. I have to read that part again.

Also there is no better place to fuck a ghost then in the underworld.

>>96518222
>You will die if you go there
>But it's a good place to go and fuck a ghost
The place is inherently evil dude

>>96518299
>ghost pussy
>all the riches your ancestors give you and even more so.
>ghost pussy
>giant cities where you can have anything you want and get to chill forever so long as people worship their ancestors.
>you can fuck a ghost

if you want we can read the 3e abyssal book together and talk about all the rad and awesome shit we could have when we die or which specific ghosts we want to fuck but all this underworld is evil junk is useless.

>>96482787 (OP)
Weekly Update
>Art Direction
Sidereals Companion – Working up art buy
Essence PG -Working up art buy
>Layout
>Proofing
Miracles of the Divine Flame – Prepping to send off to Paradox
we may see a backer pdf of the exigent companion within a month or so, maybe even the coming weeks

>>96518319
>Cancer that is slowly spreading over creation is cool because ghost pussy.
You are dumb also living pussy is like a million times better.
The underworld should be kept out and all ghosts eliminated.

>>96518768
Still baffled by the description of shadowlands as "cancer", as if its something that happens randomly and is not overwhelmingly the fault of the living killing each other.

>>96518692
>we may see a backer pdf of the exigent companion within a month or so, maybe even the coming weeks
The only interesting thing from it will be the break warden, since you can cannibalize him for Umbral charms.

>>96518319
You can do those in the living world too.

>>96518934
It is because the underworld is both, sometimes the writers want it as a proper afterlife, other times they remember that it is a reality wound slowly killing Creation.

>>96518934
Because it's a cancer it is the home of oblivion the end of all things created by accident by murdering something that was never meant to die.
That ghosts can have a decent life there is secondary to it's actual nature as a parasite reality trying to swallow and destroy creation proper.

>>96518987
It doesn't have to be either. It's the scar tissue between the cancer and creation.

>>96519034
I don't think that they're going with that for 3e. That aside, you can seal up a shadowland with a sufficient quantity of salt, so start mining those halite domes.

>>96518987
I think that's the point though? It's a cancer because it can kill creation and keeps popping up even when you attempt to fix it but also a proper afterlife because it's not something you can get rid of and people go there when they die. If your family back on Creation gave you a nice burial with a bunch of terracotta solders and hand carved coins and other family things and prayed to you every now and then you'd be rocking it in the afterlife. Unless some deathlords or necromancers or whatever undead politics fucks with that.

>>96518987
>It is because the underworld is both, sometimes the writers want it as a proper afterlife, other times they remember that it is a reality wound slowly killing Creation.
This view of the Underworld is not supported in any edition.
>>96519034
This is not what Oblivion is in either 1e or 2e Exalted, and Oblivion does not exist as an overarching force in 3e.

>>96519056
3e is ass so it doesn't matter.
And besides from what I heard it didn't change it's origin or anything so there is no real difference outside of I guess writers just talking about "dude look at this place in the underworld isn't it cool?"

>>96519091
>This view of the Underworld is not supported in any edition
Did you ever read the caste books Dawn & Night?

>>96519091
>This is not what Oblivion is in either 1e or 2e Exalted, and Oblivion does not exist as an overarching force in 3e.
What are you talking about nigga?
The abyssal castes have literal functions for when the world comes to an end and how they too must hurl themselves into oblivion once they are the only thing left.

>>96519113
Neither book supports your fanon idea to my recollection; the closest I can think of is that Lyta has a very dim view of the shadowlands, but Lyta is not exactly the most reliable authority on many subjects.

>>96519134
NTA but that's literally the only thing Lyta is practically correct on she even correctly deduced that Abyssals are corrupted Solars.

>>96519134
Caste book dawn opens with a story about how the shadow lands are a cancer, and Jiunan character points out the greed of the undead.

>>96519149
These are both opinions that the characters recounting their personal stories (Yurgen in Caste Book Dawn's opening fiction and Jiunan in his own segments) have rather than authoritative statements by the developers.
>>96519133
The Abyssals were not created by Oblivion, which has no will, but the Neverborn, whose will is to reach Oblivion via the dissolution of Creation.

I sometimes wonder why people want everything to be equally legitimate when a big theme in exalted is that the world is one of constant degradation nothing is better than it was in the past.
DBs are losing the purity if their blood, Lunars were tainted by the wyld, Sidereals were forever cursed escaping punishment, half of the Solar host has been corrupted by the enemies of their patron with no way to be purified and being very easy to corrupt the rest if they are captured.
That's the creation that's cool and evocative the point is that YOU are the one that can do something about it.
But if the world is safe and everything dandy then where is the place for actual epic heroics?

>>96519187
>These are both opinions that the characters recounting their personal stories (Yurgen in Caste Book Dawn's
>The shadowland literally killing all living in it.
>It was just Yurgen's bias, bro.

>>96519191
Your editorializing is not my opinion nor is it relevant to a discussion of whether or not the Underworld is a "parasitic reality tumor" or what have you.

>>96519187
>These are both opinions that the characters recounting their personal stories
"Woah I know everything dies and suffers in shadow lands and even worse of in the underworld but how does that affect you?"

>>96519193
>>96519208
This is about as substantial as saying that most things die when they enter a desert.

>>96519191
>What is better, to serve under heaven, or rule over hell?
Despite of what people say, it is really hard to find people who prefer the latter.

Specifically among iconoclast writers, they do it in an ironic way by turning "heaven" in a second worse hell, "hell is totally rad, I swear", "we totally had to unleash hell on Earth", etc...

When somebody points out "you are actually in hell" or find somebody that genuinely wants to rule hell, they will shutdown or throw a bitchfit.

See nu devs views on Infernals, or WW reactions to genuinely evil player characters.

>>96519201
It is very relevant because one of the reasons why creation is actively getting worse is because of the growing presence of shadowlands.
God, learn to put two and two together.
And the lessening of the world is a big theme of exalted that you can't also piece this together is not my fault

>>96519232
The lessening of the world appears to have been mostly the work of the Exalted of Creation; it wasn't spooky ghosts or Oblivion that killed the Solars and irrevocably shattered the good relations between the Exalted, after all.

>>96519215
And wouldn't it be better to have less deserts?

>>96519239
Depends on the desert.

>>96519239
Only the hot ones, the loss of cold deserts are signals of ecological problems.

>>96519234
>You see cancer is not that bad because the one at fault was the doctor that didn't detect it on time or the person that smoked.
Yeah sure the exalted could have done a better job but that's the point of the setting they had a moment of glory and then fucked it up it was all downhill for everyone I don't see how this contradicts anything I have said.

>>96519250
>>96519254
Are there any beneficial shadowlands?
Mind you this analogy doesn't even work as shadowlands are alien to creation while deserts are actually natural.

>>96519234
They did it thanks for the curse from the Neverborns

>>96519260
Yes.

>>96519291
>talisman hung districts.
Those don't actually exist in 3e.

>>96519291
>>96519438
Forgot to mention, those pilgrimages will slowly close the shadowlands.

>>96519438
False.
>>96519454
Also false.

>>96519484
Talismans/wards are made through thaumaturgy, which was nuked from the setting.

And since 1e, shadowlands are so inimical to life, that they begin to close if people live too hard near them, such as doing constant religious rituals and religious pilgrimages.

>>96519495
>Talismans/wards are made through thaumaturgy, which was nuked from the setting.
Still false.
>And since 1e, shadowlands are so inimical to life, that they begin to close if people live too hard near them, such as doing constant religious rituals and religious pilgrimages.
I strongly doubt that the religious rituals and pilgrimages done by ancestral cults would close a shadowland.

>>96519526
>some are natural
>Many are fake
>You need a thaumaturgy to create.
>the thaumaturgy x-gene is extremely rare.
Looks like they got really lucky with their talisman gacha roll.

>I strongly doubt that the religious rituals and pilgrimages done by ancestral cults would close a shadowland
Ironically enough, yes, since they are done by the living.

>>96519526
It seems like they're about as common as anything else that costs Resources 1, so I'm not sure the "thaumaturgy x gene" (I have no idea what you're talking about, sorry) is as rare as you think it is.
>Ironically enough, yes, since they are done by the living.
Doesn't seem to be supported by the text.

>>96519585
In 3e, people capable of learning thaumaturgy are as rare as the Dragon-Blooded.
You cannot learn it without the potential.

>>96517242
Funnily enough, in a very obscure bit of Ink Monkeys lore there was this wolf the Primordials made to live at the end of time meant to eat everything. The Maidens took the Sun there and he destroyed it. So technically, whatever Creation’s eventual future the Unconquered Sun has at least ensured a big wolf won’t gobble it all up.

That too, was probably a reference.

>>96519599
I don't think that's factually supported by anything.

Anyway, 1e's rules (to my knowledge, 2e does not have any rules whatsoever regarding closing shadowlands beyond the spell "Cleansing Solar Flames"e) mentions that the kind of focused efforts mortals can bring to bear (holding festivals of life, replacing shadowland soil with fertile soil, etc.) shrink a shadowland by up to ten yards a year. Needless to say, it takes decades, if not centuries, to close shadowlands bigger than the confines of a haunted house.

>>96519645
Yes, the change in the least gods was also a reference.

Reading Time and the gods helped me understand Getimians origin.
Fate vs Chance manipulation things/gods behind the scenes, chosen of Time vs the gods/heavens.

>"But at last thou shalt come with the prayers of men to the great Hall of the gods where the chairs of the gods are carved of onyx grouped round the golden throne of the eldest of the gods. And there, O King, hope not to find the gods, but reclining upon the golden throne wearing a cloak of his master's thou shalt see the figure of Time with blood upon his hands, and loosely dangling from his fingers a dripping sword, and spattered with blood but empty shall stand the onyx chairs.

>"There he sits on his master's throne dangling idly his sword, or with it flicking cruelly at the prayers of men that lie in a great heap bleeding at his feet.

>"For a while, O King, the gods had sought to solve the riddles of Time, for a while They made him Their slave, and Time smiled and obeyed his masters, for a while, O King, for a while. He that hath spared nothing hath not spared the gods, nor yet shall he spare thee."
Now there's the question of the other 3 (Revelers and Nightmares and Hearteaters)

....Aren't Shadowlands made by the living or literal evil death gods like the Neverborn? In its natural state I don't think the underworld 'just makes shadowlands' and I'm not sure where that idea seems to have gotten started?

As far as I know in order for a shadowland to happen you need to kill A LOT of people in a small area. Or torture the hell out of them. Or use some spell with the purpose of creating one. It's not something that happens if people aren't people evil douche bags. Trade happens in the underworld, people who get prayed too and had burial offerings are well to do, ectect. Same thing with undead and hungry ghosts and zombies, don't do evil shit with corpses and show the dead respect and things are relatively nice.

Is there some writing about how the underworld is leaking into creation and slowly killing it that I'm not aware of? I know it's mentioned a bunch that everything will eventually die but that's because, you know, entropy. I don't think it was a literal "oblivion is gonna get really big and suck everything up.". Unless you as a an Abyssal like... amp it up to do just that.

>>96519772
Yup. In 3e an example E5 Abyssal Athletics Charm is also creating Shadowlands by pushing over a building. It is not specified that the building needs people in it at the time. But I don’t think 3e ever actually retcons the general creation conditions for a Shadowland despite awkwardly trying to make the Underworld as, well, more lively.

>I don’t think it was a literal “oblivion is gonna get really big and suck everything up,”
Don’t have the book on me right now but I think it was most explicit in 2e where the Neverborn deem Resonance spilling over and ruining Creation to be contiguous with their overall goals of damning Creation so it can go kaput and they can be put out of their misery, and IIRC do in fact flat out say they’d quite like Creation to literally fall into the Maw of Oblivion so it can stop functioning as a metaphysical tether for blocking them from annihilation.

>>96519704
Thaumatrugy being an extreemly rare inborn talnt in 3E is factually supported by the 3E core explicitly saying so.

>>96519772
Large-scale deaths caused by accidents, disease, famine or such can also create shadowlands. That said, the deal with the Underworld is mostly just that it's unnatural, and the relationship between nature and morality isn't a clear-cut matter either IRL and in Creation.

>>96519102
Exalted has suffered from an overabundance of "look at this cool place oh wait, it's ruining everything!", so dialing it back would be for the best.

You can still control shadowlands with salt in every edition. That'd be some amazingly manageable cancer, if you're still carrying on with that analogy.

>>96519134
A head empty of everything except revenge.

>>96519144
Task failed successfully - in her rabid state of zeal, she perfectly deduced it while also being wrong about lots of details, like trying to "purify" Abyssals by killing them. She is an idiot, plain and simple; the best result for Creation is a mutual kill between her and Mirth.

>>96519149
The greed of the Deathlords, really. That's what was driving the whole story - the turned lady that Jiunan interceded for was to be a concubine to the Walker in Darkness (at the time I believe it was generally because the Deathlords were presented as much more fond of the dead; the Abyssals book set up a circumstance where only the dead could reside in his stronghold, as a curse would wither and kill the living).

>>96519860
The problem is that 3e does nothing except dial shit back without introducing any cool shit, unless your ideal of cool is divine labour strikes or trans representation in the Realm.

>>96519860
>Exalted has suffered from an overabundance of "look at this cool place oh wait, it's ruining everything!", so dialing it back would be for the best.
>We need more places where nothing happens
I dunno, dude. I think that having huge cool problems to solve is actually good.
Also, Lyta is peak, and I can fix her.

>>96519860
>The greed of the Deathlords, really.
They weren't the exception, see Huyla story about the twink hunter zombie.

>>96519877
Nothing for the easy defeat of shadowlands via salt? With the amount you're carrying, your characters should never have to worry.

>>96519896
…I do not consider being able to get rid of profound blights on Creation with kitchen condiments (and not, say, a thaumaturgy ritual) to be “cool”, no.

This goalpost moving has been very funny.
>No bro the underworld is totally legit and good
>I-I mean its practically like a desert a-and some people manage to survive there right?
>The underworld is easy to defeat with salt so its not that bad actually I dunno why we even care about this conversation we need more places where nothing happens

>>96519906
It is based on real life stuff, and part of the setting since 1e.
But back then it was to keep child eating hungry ghosts in check, instead of your nagging grandma.

>>96519918
>But back then it was to keep child eating hungry ghosts in check, instead of your nagging grandma.
NGL this perfectly summarizes why 3e is so lame.

>>96519882
There are plenty of problems with the living, anon. You might be familiar with this thing called "the Realm"? It effectively puts Creation into a death spiral by assuring that no one can take control of the security systems without a giant war that will ruin Creation worse. Now that's cancer.

>>96519891
Part of a delegation from Thorns, if you'll recall correctly. Seems like the only dead that most of the sig characters encounter are the ones that the Deathlords are sending out to break shit when they don't have a loyalist Abyssal to make it happen.

>>96519927
>There are plenty of problems with the living, anon. You might be familiar with this thing called "the Realm"? It effectively puts Creation into a death spiral by assuring that no one can take control of the security systems without a giant war that will ruin Creation worse. Now that's cancer.
>No you see having less variety of conflict is actually good you see now everyone has to play a realm centric game.

>>96519918
>It is based on real life stuff
I would like to keep real life stuff out of my epic high-flying role-playing game about reborn god-heroes in a world that turned on them, thanks. Yes I am familiar with the cultural superstition, I also think it would be very silly if you could prevent Deathlords from invading your village by scattering rice on the ground.

>>96519925
>NGL this perfectly summarizes why 3e is so lame.
3e at times feel like a strange version of Oz, the magic is in the wayside wack villages, and the screwed up stuff in the not thought-out writing implications.

>>96519915
You can also have unlimited relic daiklaves. Luring the Realm into a friendly shadowland (friendly to you, of course) during the night seems great way to get some backup from war ghosts. There are also texts preserved there that met fire or worse in previous ages, and people live there because it's fairly inaccessible and the Realm tends to get put off by the Tim Burton landscape and not send its own there overly often. They're better off as another place that can serve to resist the Scarlet Dynasty, not as Superevil Bastion of Bastards Number Whatever.

Consider for a moment that Malfeas was presented as worse in 2e than it was in 1e with an "all mortals die in several days" miasma. That surely sculpted the outlook of the fans that picked up Exalted during 2e about what had been considered "the coolest hell in gaming" and likely blocked off potential use of it, but there was nothing that really said that it had to be that way. You can think of the attitude toward shadowlands and the Underworld being like that, only it's residual WoD opinion permeating everything when it doesn't necessarily make sense for it to be that way.

>>96519925
What? Salt is used for the same purposes in 3E as in the older editions, and bloodthirsty hungry ghosts are stll a thing.

>>96519927
>There’s a corrupt shogunate where everyone is the Avatar!
>SEE SEE LOOK ITS TOTALLY AS OBJECTIVELY EVIL AS THE LITERAL NIGHTMARE OF DYING TITANS IN WHICH BLOOD AND ASH ARE FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTS AND THE DEAD DEVOLVING INTO PREYING ON THE LIVING IS A COMMON OCCURRENCE
Silver Prince, stop posting. Your Linguistics Charms have no power here.

>>96519949
That and the random Evangelion/Uzumaki references scattered around the setting in the most forced way possible. Or whatever the numinous blob of numinousness that made the Flame of Exigency is supposed to be.

>>96519952
>worse in 2e than it was in 1e
…was it? I mean, Malfeas did not exactly seem like a friendly neighbourhood in 1e.

>>96519936
The Deathlords are still there. They just happen to not be the secret ultimate evil to end all others, because it wasn't a good idea the first time, either, let alone when it led to the Alchemicals book becoming the First and Forsaken Lion Show (later renewed until they hyped up the Ebon Dragon).

>>96519960
>…was it? I mean, Malfeas did not exactly seem like a friendly neighbourhood in 1e.
Anon mentioned a very specific thing that makes 2E Malfeas worse than 1E Malfeas. How about you consider that?

>>96519970
I honestly don’t think it makes that much of a difference. When a whole fucking demonic city hates you for existing, if it’s not poisonous gasses it’s limitless hordes of demons and literally hostile architecture.

>>96519964
I am actually okay with Deathlords not being the secret architectures of hyperdeath and having more idiosyncratic goals and generally more enlightened self interest, I am just unimpressed by how neutered they are in 3e.

>>96519960
Malfeas didn't have the instant kill aura in 1e. A mortal could potentially hide there for a while and scrounge for stuff.

In 2e, having that be, say, your character's background is not readily possible. When 2e later tried to introduce prayer mills of mortals kept there, the mortal-killing miasma made that a less than coherent part of the setting.

>>96519958
If you're as fond of older editions as I am, you should recall when the Realm Deebs dressed up as Anathema for Calibration and went around killing and raping peasants for the lulz. Or how the Shogunate was inherently unstable, as gleaned through the Records of the Past in every Aspect Book, and basically just pissed the world away, and how the Realm continued to do it.

>>96519964
This anon >>96519973 nails it it is ok to give deathlords more personality just don't make them lame and gay.

>>96519954
It's metaphorical, dude.
Exalted used to be edgy, rough around the corners, and cool; now it has been made lame and safe.

>>96519973
Any amount of de-powering from the Secret Architects of Hyperdeath is probably going to feel like a serious step down, but we don't need a single ultimate villain for everyone in this game.

>>96519843
>Thaumatrugy being an extreemly rare inborn talnt in 3E is factually supported by the 3E core explicitly saying so.
Well it says its rare but it also says that one in every 10k people can do Reading the Tea Leaves, so I don't think its as rare as being a Dragon-blood by any account. I think it'd be about as rare as having heterochromia.

>>96519978
>If you're as fond of older editions as I am, you should recall when the Realm Deebs dressed up as Anathema for Calibration and went around killing and raping peasants for the lulz. Or how the Shogunate was inherently unstable, as gleaned through the Records of the Past in every Aspect Book, and basically just pissed the world away, and how the Realm continued to do it.
And?
That's actually cool.
Like an extreme fucked up version of halloween

>>96519991
>According to the Dragon Blooded book, they make up between 1 in 10,000 and 1 in 5,000 of the population will be dragon blooded.

>>96519995
>Ignore that the Avatars are shitbags on par with the deathknights, but there are even more of them

Classy move.

>>96519915
I haven't really seen any efficacious arguments against my positions and you resorting to vague posting makes me doubt you ever will provide one.

>>96519988
NTA but I think having multiple ultimate evils is cooler than no ultimate evils that's a huge difference.
Let deathlords be the end
Let authoctonia come and be the end
Let the fair folk invade and be the end
Let the Yozi raise and be the end
Let the realm drown the world in war and be the end

>>96520014
All your arguments have been beaten to the ground tho that's why you move from one to another while the underworld is cancer argument stays the same(as it's the truth)

>>96519995
I don’t think we’re arguing about whether Creation or the Underworld has the COOLER atrocities, just the ones which are more metaphysically corrosive to existence as a whole. I mean if we’re going for coolness alone, then let me just say Ipithymia is based.

>>96520016
Those can be potential escalation scenarios but you probably shouldn't start things out at two minutes to midnight if you're writing for the base state of the game.

Time of Tumult had an escalation track where increasingly terrible things would happen if you didn't intercede against Yugash's invasion. It did not start out blowing up Gem; that's like years off from the Autochtonians popping up out of Ot's head.

That should be the general standard. Start cropping up with small problems, work your way up. You don't need to go charging off to the end like another exec in charge of the X-Men movies snorting coke and demanding that you do the Dark Phoenix arc yesterday. Again.

>>96520007
It might be hard to hear, but I would say an authoritarian government of demigods that rape and kill people to keep them oppressed is a thousand times better than the guys that want to end all of existence.

>>96519999
[citation needed]
>>96520028
That is simply not a view supported by any edition.

>>96519973
Those limitless hordes of demons don't really hate you for existing the same way the city itself does, though.

>>96519978
>If you're as fond of older editions as I am, you should recall when the Realm Deebs dressed up as Anathema for Calibration and went around killing and raping peasants for the lulz.
I asked this the last time that was mentioned, too, but where is that from? I vaguely remember reading about that a long time ago, but I'd like to re-read the part about that custom and check a couple of things about the specifics of it.

>Or how the Shogunate was inherently unstable, as gleaned through the Records of the Past in every Aspect Book, and basically just pissed the world away, and how the Realm continued to do it.
I kind of feel like the idea for what the Shogunate was like must've changed at some point as 1E went along. 1E Core briefly describes the period between the Usurpation and the Contagion/Crusade like this:
>It was not the grandeur of the Realm's heyday, nor was it entirely peaceful, but it was devoid of the vast atrocities and terrible indulgences that had driven the Dragon-Blooded to regicide
That sounds to me like the Shogunate era was initially supposed to be a farily stable era distinctly lesser than the First Age but more advanced than the Age of Sorrows.

>>96520049
>That is simply not a view supported by any edition.
Saying this like a mantra doesn't make it untrue; it is a growing cancer that will kill all of the world if given the chance.
Do shadowlands naturally disappear if left alone?
No they only grow and taint more and more.
>>96520044
Agreed that Ipithymia is based.

>>96519906
That's how its worked since 1e.
>>96520071
Shadowlands don't grow on their own. You should really read the books.

>>96519987
>It's metaphorical, dude.
Metaphorically pointing out something that isn't the case as an example of why 3E is lame doesn't really work, nor does it really fit the definition of a metaphor.

>>96519999
That's not 3E, I'm pretty sure. Those are the numbers offered in Exalted: the Outcaste, right? They don't really fit 2E, either, where the estimate for Creation's total population was around 500 million, which would've made DB-to-mortal ratio more like 1:20,000 or 1:25,000 or something like that.

>>96520091
>Shadowlands don't grow on their own. You should really read the books.
What do you think the ghosts that live there do?
They go out and kill, and the shadowland grows.
Are you like a baby that has to be fed everything?

>>96520054
>Those limitless hordes of demons don't really hate you for existing the same way the city itself does, though.
I would argue it doesn’t matter if the demon city plays a little game of chinese whispers telling Ligier to tell Gervesin to tell the big red monkeys to play bongos with the mortals’ skulls. But I accept that I think we’re looking at the issue from fundamentally different angles.

Personally in my opinion writing a “mortals in 2e Malfeas” story is as simple as pulling out an OC thaumaturgy practice/demon pact that lets the mortals survive somehow since Compass: Malfeas itself establishes multiple relatively simply and easily available ways to survive in Malfeas for a prolonged period of time.

>>96520091
>That’s how its worked since 1e
People need to stop trotting doubt as a NO NONONO YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICISE THE THING!!! rebuttal, by that logic the Onceborn is what all Abyssals should aspire in every default Abyssal campaign.

>>96520098
Most ghosts don't randomly go out and kill people, though.

>>96520091
The fundamental difference between the Realm and Shadowlands is that the Realm killing people violently generates more Shadowlands, but Hungry Ghosts killing people violently doesn’t generate more verdant healthy Creation.

>>96520101
>Most
All the dominant powers of the Underworld are malevolent, selfishly violent at best and actually working towards Oblivion at worst. The opinions of most ghosts are irrelevant, because most ghosts are not actually the beings responsible for the promulgation of Shadowlands.

>>96520099
>People need to stop trotting doubt as a NO NONONO YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CRITICISE THE THING!!! rebuttal, by that logic the Onceborn is what all Abyssals should aspire in every default Abyssal campaign.
Offering actual criticism for the thing instead of just saying "I don't like it" might be conductive to a better discussion.

>>96520101
Why would cities need protection against them? Is Grandma's nagging so fearsome?

>>96520097
50.000 DBs world wide makes a lot of sense, even the devs commented that the ~10.000 figure was too small.

>>96520108
Okay. I think it’s a trite and unsatisfying way of dealing with a supernatural entity compared to thaumaturgy or spiritual practices, and that such a simplistic way of interacting with the supernatural lessens it’s mystique for players.

>>96520108
Also offering actual benefits that the thing brings to either the setting or players instead of just saying “You have to like it because it’s in the book and the book is a holy text above your feeble comprehension you lowly maggot” might be conductive to a better discussion.

>>96520118
Less than 50,000 DBs also makes a lot of sense. 3E has, what 25000 or 30000 of them? 2E had about the same, I think. 1E didn't have 50,000 DBs, either, not by any numbers I've ever seen.

>>96520121
Ghosts being unable to cross salt is no more trite than vampires being vulnerable to sunlight or Fair Folk to iron. Supernatural entities having specific weaknesses is a staple of folklore, mythology and fantasy literature alike. Salt lines still leave plenty of room for thaumaturgy to shine when it comes to dealing with ghosts, too.

>>96520054
1e Deeb book, page 111. The sidebar entitled "Calibration Venturing". The targets are Threshold towns bordering on lands allied to the Realm. There might be more in the 1e core, but for now, that's the citation.

The Shogunate was indeed less extreme than the Solars' Realm, but that seems like damning with faint praise, because it leaves a lot of room to still be terrible.

>>96520047
The only reason that they get away with doing shit and not causing shadowlands is because they're written as not causing shadowlands.

(Actually, Lookshy did cause one when they used the screaming death WMD against the Realm. But other than that, they're dealing with a kind of Plot Armor.)

>>96520176
>Supernatural entities having specific weaknesses is a staple of folklore, mythology and fantasy literature alike.
That has nothing to do with it’s value to the game of Exalted. Should people be allowed to leave out milk for the Raksha’s favour too?

>>96520113
Cities need protection against hungry ghosts, which are generally not possessed of a capacity to be selectively benevolent; they just hunger for the blood of the living, and also corpus if there's no blood around, so the dead will also pitch in against them from time to time. They are a menace.

Whether or not you need help from a non-hungry ghost is a matter of individual ghost, unless you are dealing with minions of the Deathlords. A lot of mortal ghost hunters are usually up to the task.

>>96520098
I am uncertain as to where you got this idea of all ghosts seeking the death of all mortals, as it is not in any of the books.
>>96520121
It is a spiritual practice, though.

>>96520201
Sure, yeah.

>>96520178
>The only reason that they get away with doing shit and not causing shadowlands is because they're written as not causing shadowlands.
I think they are simply not mentioned. I would presume any battlefield big enough would end up becoming one, and the realm loves to keep their legions busy in the threshold.
And if I remember correctly, the blessed isle is immune to shadowlands, so they can massacre as much as they want there.

>>96520211
>I am uncertain as to where you got this idea of all ghosts seeking the death of all mortals, as it is not in any of the books.
I dunno why you think I think all ghosts seek the death of the living.
But enough to make Shadowlands dangerous to the living and make them grow, not to mention if you have a deathlord send his forces to destroy everything at any moment.

>>96520218
>the blessed isle is immune to shadowlands

First I've heard of it. It would definitely make Mnemon's 1e hush hush alliance with the Mask of Winters a bit difficult to broker.

>>96520235
From what I remember, there is a piece of fiction where it is shown that an abyssal is carried underwater by zombies in a coffin to the blessed isle to speak with Mnemon.

>>96520244
One hell of a turnaround time on that, depending on where the coffin is sinking down.

>>96520249
Who knows?
I would guess from a nearby ship to make sure no one sees the abyssal arriving.

>>96520215
>>96520211
Well, I disagree for the same reason I don’t think random priests being able to curse the Exalted with crippling weaknesses is appropriate for the game or enjoyable for the players. You can take your folksy hoo-doo and shove it when and where it doesn’t fit the setting of EXALTED overall.

>>96520312
But your opinion is not based on what is actually in Exalted. Its a very unorthodox view to want to remove the capacity for any regular mortal to interact with the overwhelmingly abundant supernatural forces in Creation with established spiritual practices (inspired by real life beliefs and superstitions).

>>96520312
>I don’t think random priests being able to curse the Exalted with crippling weaknesses is appropriate for the game or enjoyable for the players
I think that's a good thing for the game and entirely appropriate both to genre and the setting of Exalted as a whole, so long as we appreciate that these random priests are not average or normal, because any priest who stands up to cast curses at unvirtuous Exalted is by definition heroic.

You can literally just ask any disease spirit to give a solar the shits and there's not much they can do about it.

>>96520107
The Deathlords and Neverborn do all seem to be assholes, yeah. You should see what the Scarlet Empress gets up to when she comes back to Creation in 2e, or what Auto does when he comes back to Creation in 2e.

A Shadowland also offers a way for people to communicate with their ancestors and all the other benefits of an afterlife so eh. If it wasn't for the leadership it seems pretty alright. Even hungry dead don't tend to leave the place where they died unless they really had some place they wanted to get back to so... don't go robbing tombs? Unless you don't mind pissing off some ghosts that is.

>>96520445
>You can literally just ask any disease spirit to give a solar the shits and there's not much they can do about it.
Well, the Solar can be immune to disease or have a dicepool so high they just resist anyway, but most of them don't. Therefore, yes.

I don't think Exalted should have power level protection or protagonist protection. They shouldn't be immune to all lesser worries just because, and they don't get to trample all over the setting just because writers are hyped up on their out-of-universe legend. They should get to use their powers and apply themselves, and so should everybody else.

>>96520445
Yeah, Solars are people demetheus becomes a drunkard out oof guilt for killing one of his circle mates by accident to the point he gets scolded by a spirit

>>96517786
The one that makes the target's skeleton try to rip itself out of their flesh prison.

>>96519191
The problem is that if everything is so shit all the time having good moments or people stands out like a sore thumb. In other words it doesn't make the characters feel exceptional, it makes everyone else look too dickish to function.
Kind of how some writers convey the inteligente of one character by making everyone else kind of stupid.

>>96520445
Unless they have charms to counter that they really can't do much about it that a normal person couldn't.

>>96520054
>sounds to me like the Shogunate era was initially supposed to be a farily stable era distinctly lesser than the First Age but more advanced than the Age of Sorrows
To be fair, I think people are just picturing IRL shogunate dynamics with magitech given how vague it is on most descriptions. Sure you didn't have mass atrocities like your average chinese dynasty but it probably wasn't much better than that.