Thread 96698459

Fuckermonster Edition

>>IF YOU ARE ASKING A QUESTION, PLEASE SPECIFY WHICH GAME YOU'RE PLAYING<<

Previous Thread: >>96649207

/pfg/ (pathfinder 1e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/RSt0rF0T
/p2g/ (pathfinder 2e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/1zySxwm3
/sfg/ (starfinder) link repository: https://pastebin.com/5yp9s2U3

>>CHECK THE SHARE THREAD FOR MISSING MATERIALS<<

TQ: What one thing you wish was more fleshed out?

Damn, did we really need to continue this general? Last thread was such a good stopping point...

>>96698459 (OP)
>TQ
The classes
>ONE THING
Ok, the Inventor class. It highlights most of the things Paizo keeps fucking up.

>>96698918
>flesh out the inventor
Please no i already have a feature that is a feat that gives me an exception to a rule that uses a different rule to craft recipies so i can craft items but only if its on the list of items and an item im allowed to learn and if i can already get the item and only for the cost of the item and only on a check and only if daddy says so

The last thing i need is more fucking clauses, rules exceptions and lists

Going from Cyberpunk Techie to PF2e "Inventor" was like a bucket of cold water: illuminating and unpleasant.

>>96698938
The three main things that would change from Inventor would be
>Overdrive not being a pain in the ass to get going
>Unstable scaling like Focus Points
>Improving the list of innovation bonuses/getting more of them

You don't need to add more clauses or recreate the whole class, you just need to make it not a detriment to play. Classes are good at cheating, but Inventor doesn't need to do that.
Another thing that could be tossed in is more class feats especially Construct. It's kind of fucked 1 out of 3 subclasses are entirely dependent on ~40% of its feats being taxed... And a legit tax, not just being hyperbolic.

...The Animal Companion rules are kind of weird but I can't really say I want much to change on that front, beyond Barding Training on Savage Companions....

>>96699059
1e Mechanic wasn't THAAAAT great (not that most Starfinder1e classes were particularly stellar), so I can't really imagine it was that much of a culture shock, compare to something like 1e to 2e Alchemist (even nowadays, despite how genuinely strong they are despite their scuffness). Still, it is kind of a shame Inventor is like that, and even moreso with 2e Mechanic being...okay at the moment, but still better than current Inventor...

How can I raise the caster level of an animated objects spell to 32? I want to animate a battleship and all the cannons/catapults on it so I have a giant walking fire support platform.

>>96698459 (OP)
>TQ
For a slightly less skub topic and learning more how Team+'s Essence Casting system is meant to be used in TANDEM with Vancian Casting classes and not a replacement, I wouldn't mind more Class Archetypes that change how spellcasting functions, like Flexible Spellcaster or Wellspring Mage. I don't mind players utilizing alternate spellcasting systems (long its not like Sacred Geometry...) and as much I defend Vancian Casting, people should have options.

Classes like Magus and Summoner could benefit from not being tied directly to VC, even if it comes at the expense of more complexity being stocked ontop of complex classes.

>>96699241
Overdrive hasnt been that bad for me, but im running the construct so i can afford to sit a turn out and let my boy fill in while i buff us both up

I dont feel like im dead weight yet, my output is generally good if inconsistent, but it hurts that item crafting is kind of a huge waste of time

>>96699328
Construct is just the best because the action economy is far superior compare to the other two. Failing an Overdrive check on them (or even just succeeding but still needing to do it to get full INT-to-damage benefits) is a lot less painful when you don't have to be in the frontlines or taking a core action away from such.

Still doesn't mean it needs to take 4 feats away from you for being the best subclass (though you can argue Armor became that with the errata).

I wouldn't call Inventor dead weight, no 2e class is, but it is easily the most scuffed class and doesn't really offer much beyond raw (elemental) damage, which is just MUCH easier to grab on everyone else. If it could grant innovation benefits to others like Runesmith can grant its runes, then I would say that would give it unique benefits that make the piloting issues...well, not worth it, least fun to mess about with.

>>96699298
Magic+ was kind of a mixed bag for me. Essence casting seemed overly complex and tying both form and summon spells to the same system just felt lame. Aspects work for summons but i think form spells should have a bigger budget with premade statblocks that i can just slap on. Luckily i found another book that was closer to my tastes so i use both of them in tandem.

>>96699241
Animal companions should of been locked as a class feature that auto heightens with beastmaster allowing other classes to spend feats the usual way. This way you could give ranger and inventor thematic AC feats that let them do cool shit outside the norm.

Or if Inventor could actually INVENT things like the name suggests.

>>96700351
that would require something along the line of gadget design not being shit, and the arbitrary class budgeting not keeping you from having multiple things invented at a time (and not making it a level 19 feature that goes against the entire rest of the class)

>>96699926
Inventor literally got a "do a cool thing with your companion" feat at 4. The same level as a mandatory companion upgrade feat.

>>96700351
Personally I rather rename it than make up custom item rules, even more than the innovations.
Though the way Solarian and Runesmith is going, it kind of is more an inventor than Inventor.

>>96700443
The thing about inventions is that they have to...not previously exist. It's why no one calls the innovations inventions, they are customizations ontop of a pre-existing thing and not something new. While I like and prefer an item enhancer class, Inventor does struggle to live up to the name.
And yes, gadgets were tossed in at the last minute (really fucks with me that was something people had to ask for in the original playtest surveys) and the Level 19 is kind of weird and useless.

>>96700634
>The thing about inventions is that they have to...not previously exist.
Actually inventing things is antithetical to the class structure of the system-the class should have been called Tinkerer or something, if only so we could all stop getting hung up on the fact the class doesn't do something it never did and will never be capable of doing.

It's funny that if you refluffed Exemplar, that would probably be more of an inventor than the actual class, if only because ikons tend to actually do relatively unique things rather than just being "X item but with bonus trait".

>>96700733
While it is true we all should stop being so autistic about a name...
It's no one fault but Paizo for naming it Inventor. And even bothering to give it the Inventor skill.

>>96700540
Yes. Which is why ACs from features should just auto upgrade giving you space to pick cool shit.

>>96699241
Unstable is great because it doesn't take ten minutes to restore per focus point. Often times focus point casters don't get 30+ minutes of rest between every encounter.
Overdrive is fun because you can actually use constraint stuff like talismans and magic items. Really good with assists and prep round, you can use it during exploring as well more easily

Inventor really doesn't have a numbers problem, it's just a class for gambling and math enjoyers that want to itemmax barbarian style.

Gadgets baseline like Alchemist
Able to modify their innovations daily rather than taking a week
Add some consumable gadgets to make Unstable or Overdrive more certain as affixed items to innovation for when you really need that crit overdrive or that extra unstable

Last week my group of 6 level 2 PCs defeated:
>two bugbears
>around 30 goblins
>a worg
>two level 3 drow fighters
Between two encounters. With no resting in between.
This is in 1e. Their characters are all tier 3 to 5, except one cleric who has so far only been a healbot.
Is this normal? I know CR is fucked, and they are experienced players, and they did get fairly worn down, but still. Most of their damage came from getting worn down in the first battle in a 10-foot-wide hallway. The next one was more spread out.
I've run this game for 10 years now, and 3.5 for another 10 before that, and it still just kinda surprises me how absolutely useless CR is.

>>96701061
>group of 6
nothing normal about running that many players at once. say that they also have shitton of familiars, animal companions, summons, eidolons, and cohorts running around that you let them control like additional PCs.

>>96701001
> Often times focus point casters don't get 30+ minutes of rest between every encounter.
Ehhhh, I don't see that. Campaigns like Kingmaker have plenty of downtime, and intense dungeon crawl games like Abomination Vaults the party would be smart enough to recognize to temper their focus point use. Plus as of the Remaster, Inventor still only have 2 "Focus Points" by 14, while casters not only max out by them, but also have the 10 minute refresh feat.

>Overdrive is fun because you can actually use constraint stuff like talismans and magic items.
Assuming there's good stuff you want the Concentration that Barbarian lacks out, sure. I also value the ranged aspects of Inventor's Overdrive damage, Weapon Inventor can tack on quite a lot and Construct's passive damage reduction and immunities from being...a construct is way more valuable than people give credit for. They may be an INT-Barbarian, but they do have more freedom of such.

But with Barbarian's massive Rage scaling now and them sticking with the gambling aspect, I do think they have a CLEAR number issue. Non-Construct Inventors lack the action economy to pump out the damage and even the gambling-for-power aspect is outclassed by Thaumaturge, Swashbuckler, and even Oracle. You are spending an action for 4-6 more damage. They could have at least make it scale.

I will also give credit to the Unstable actions, at least. I think all of them are cool and handy and worth to gamble on. More like them for Overdrive, please!

>>96701094
That's pretty common to see. It is definitely the MAXIMUM you can reasonably run, but it is a valid option. I do it all the time for my campaigns, even if my players are OBSESSED with companions and NPC amigos and dragging entire armies to their adventures....

>>96701447
Overdrive does loads of damage with agile weapons and there are feats that add more damage. With item bonuses and assist you really want to do overdrive before an encounter starts

Had a 12-20 inventor in my last campaign as a stealth suit inventor that went martial artist. Did bonkers damage and was pretty much perma hidden/invisible. Normally got 2-4 unstables off per encounter along with loads of gadgets

>>96701522
Again, basically every class in 2e is viable. I'm sure there's plenty of stories of people having a good time with every class, no matter how bitter /pgg/ can be or talk about being useless compared to 4 Human Fighter Party.

But people like me call out Inventor in particular for being the worst class because the design is super scuffed. The damage you pump out could be replicated easier on a lot of other martials with better bulk, better feats, and better progression.

> With item bonuses and assist you really want to do overdrive before an encounter starts
Even this is just better sought on other classes. Investigator and Ranger can easily do their action taxes out of combat. Rogues can just start Hidden and even gets rewarded for such from the class itself. Barbarian just can boot-up Rage on initiative. Even if you believe there shouldn't be mechanics like Stances or Panache that only works in Encounter Mode, I don't think Inventor does this idea particularly well either.

>>96698459 (OP)
It's a bit of a moot point now thanks to Paizo completely gutting alignment but I've always said that any outsider with an N in its alignment got completely shafted in love and lore compared to anything at the corners.

>>96701061
CR and similar systems assume that creatures are being allowed to use their actions in a relevant way each turn. If the 30 goblins are funneled through a corridor one at a time then 29 of the goblins will be wasting turns waiting, reducing the difficulty of the encounter to roughly that of a single goblin with 30 times as much HP. Experienced players needless to say will be well versed in mitigating enemy action efficiency, turning the encounter into a wargame where the circumstances and tactics matter more than the stats.

This is why so many premade encounters force ambush style combats. 5 guys jumping your party at melee range from around the corner limits the range of tactics that can be used, making it harder to deviate fights from the intended difficulty level.

>>96701641
Worked at my table, sometimes certain player types don't vibe with certain styles of play. I do feel like if you don't lean into mad scientist style of RP and pouring over item lists it's gonna be weird playing inventor

I don't want to be skill taxed just to use the overpowered spell Organsight.

>>96701802
Pay taxes

>>96701781
NTA but sometimes it is also just shit luck. I eventually reclassed my last Inventor character because my rolls had been so abysmal Overdrive wound up being strictly the wrong thing to do almost every combat. I either didn't activate it or hurt myself almost every single attempt.

Quick question in regards to PF2e, would you say the Heal Animal Druid focus spell works on Swarm Eidolons since they have the animal trait and are technically gathered into a single fragmentary being?

>1e
I really want to DM an adventure that ends in fighting the Tane(Jabberwock, Wild Hunt, Leviathan, etc.). I have never DM'd before but my group is giving me a turn at the table; would it be feasible to shove them into an existing adventure path, or would adding something like that be too disruptive? Should I shelf homebrew shit until I have proper experience?
I've been playing for ~6 months so I'm not completely clueless, but I definitely need some experience behind the wheel.

>>96702687
Yeah, would work. Animal tag is on Swarm Eidolon.
Ironically, would not work on Beast Eidolon because it isn't a Beast.

>>96698459 (OP)
Can a Summoner work as the rogue/skill monkey? We're new to the system and playing Abomination Vaults with 3 players, A Monk, an Oracle, and me.

>>96702778
>would it be feasible to shove them into an existing adventure path
eh, on one hand it kinda depends on AP, some are heavily themed around some monster type. On the other hand though, Paizo APs usually have some "secret bosses" that have no actual effect on the story and can be replaced with whatever.

That when the online kingmaker 2e game fell apart early. That feel when I really want to keep playing a muh totally not inspired by Siegfried Human Dragon blood Dragon Instinct Barbarian.

>>96704898
That feel when

So who's converting the grenades from Starfinder 2e to be used in Pathfinder 2e? I'd say as gadgets rather than alchemical bombs, because the devs have had ample opportunity to make bombs not suck, and have declined at every turn. Meanwhile things like explosive mines exist as gadgets.

Gorum's major boon reads as follows:
>"Gorum feeds you the zeal of his undying warriors, allowing you to draw upon your own life force to fight on and on without falling. Whenever you would be reduced to 0 Hit Points, you are instead healed to half your maximum Hit Points and become doomed 1 (or increase your doomed condition by 1)."
Would a death effect be able to bypass this and kill somebody outright despite the boon

>>96704690
Not great. You have half as many skills to work with compared to a rogue or investigator, but if you just need a lockpicking bot... yeah you can cover that with anyone.

>>96705746
Yes a death effect would ignore it. Otherwise it would be worded as "Whenever you would be reduced to 0 hit points or killed outright" or something like that.
Nice environmental storytelling, paizo. Good job.

>Runelord mythic archetype
>Casts with charisma, making it completely useless on an actual runelord
Great work, paizo. Truly amazing. Wonderful. Awesome. Good job.

I lost a rules argument to my gm asking chatgpt. im so tired

>>96705994
Quit that group on the spot and never look back.
Nobody who uses LLMs for definitive grounded advice is ever worth spending your time with. Vague advice and inspirations, maybe, but getting a hallucinating schizobot to make final judgments? Incurable brainrot, get the fuck outta there.

>ai in rpgs mentioned
confession time
I once loosely based a sidequest for a long-term campaign I was running on a snuff ERP scenario I did with a coombot. None of the players ever caught on and the rogue said it was one of the most interesting scenarios he's played. One of the other players even gave them a cameo in a oneshot he was running in the same setting with a mostly different group. Now I don't think I can ever come clean to them about it

2e
Question about how Thaumaturge's second and third Implements work narratively. Is it something your pc just always had on them in their backstory like the first implement and at 5/15 they just gain a new way to use them or is your character supposed to gain those implement during play? I feel like it's the former since if it's the latter, you end up going Mother May I with your GM for your class feature. The only other option I can think of is that you just randomly now have the implement when you hit 5/15 like some random loot drop in a video game.

>>96706074
on the battle where they hit the level up I just had the implement as loot on one of the bodies
>this guy seems to be carrying a strange bell

>>96706009
Eh, it usually gives sources for its delusions, or at least somewhat firm logic.
Honestly better than spending an hour googling some random reddit threads where people argue about it.

>>96706089
What AI gives you is that reddit thread summarised.

>>96704690
Summoner is a good pointman because of the extra hands but you'd go MAD trying to run an int/cha unless you want to go full support

You really want a good reflex save as summoner.

>>96706116
Which saves hour of googling and reading fucking reddit arguments.

Theoretically, if I was to give every martial class a lv1 class feature that gave them a reaction if they don't already have such a feature, would giving rogue opportune backstab be too good? It definitely strikes me as a bad idea but I'm not sure what else to do.

>>96706089
You really have to frame as compare these rulings based on these data sets which one is in line with the rest of the games rules
It's VERY easy to get confirmation bias if you phrase it in a biased way

I am curious what the ruling debate was

>>96699868
What's it called?

I have been toying with the idea of a tiefling slayer who has somewhat internalised hatred against tieflings and adopted Irori teachings as a coping mechanism to control her "inner demons". In practise, however, she's suppressing her human side too because there is no real separation between both sides, and uses to justify sanctified murder. Does this form of self-deception work in a character?

>>96706141
Nimble Dodge makes more sense to grant, it is less the massive powerspike Opportune Backstab would be.

>>96707087
To be honest, I had completely forgotten that nimble dodge existed, it's been so long since I've played a low level game that I don't ever remember seeing a rogue use their reaction on anything but backstab.
Thanks anon.

>past 2 AP books haven't been uploaded
I cant really blame them when Mythspeaker has been truly dogshit
Why is the PF2e AP quality so much lower? Even late 1e APs like Ironfang Invasion were head and shoulders above the unending cozy fantasy RP shit

>>96706471
Redux Series: Form Spells. It only has the Player Core 1&2 spells converted but it basically makes things like the bear & wolf form more like the bestiary versions. Really scratched my Wild druid itch after playing BG3.

>>96707995
Cool. I don't suppose it's been redeemed

>>96705763
>>96706121
I'm respecing my character because we are outmatched in combat and I feel like we need elemental damage options against some of the enemies. I was playing a thaymaturge w/ Beastmaster(We're playing with Free Archetype) but we're getting downed every other encounter. I was covering recall knowledge + thievery and I think I need to still cover that role. Rogue seems like a more combat-capable version of what I was already playing. I was also looking at Alchemist or Witch to try and fill holes in our party while retaining thievery/knowledge skills. Currently halfway to 4th level btw.

>>96708113
Redeemed?

>>96708298
Pirated

>>96708370
Nah i bought it. Its like 7 bucks.

Does striking rune work with Animal Form untamed druid? We are at level 10 and im doing 1d12+9 while barbarian over there is doing 3d10+13.
This cant be correct, right? Whats the point of those forms, if they fall so hard behind? Striking rune must be working with it, no?

>>96708573
>Whats the point of those forms, if they fall so hard behind? Striking rune must be working with it, no?
The point is "muh versatility I can pull out whenever as a caster", not actually ever keeping up with even a mediocre martial. Offhand, you can MAYBE get the benefit of the attack roll part, assuming it would make your non-transformed attack roll be higher than the battle form bonus, but would not get the extra damage dice, because the way battle forms are designed is kind of just complete fucking ass to punish 1e polymorph casters for outshining martials

>>96708573
No, they do not.
>If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
By 10, you should have long shifted to more powerful forms like Plant Form, Elemental Form, or Dinosaur Form. Untamed is NOT for sticking with being a wolf furry.

It's definitely a design decision of all time, but it isn't unprecedented. Wildshape Druids always been about copying the highest CR monster they saw.

>>96708617
>because the way battle forms are designed is kind of just complete fucking ass to punish 1e polymorph casters for outshining martials
It's less the numbers that screws over battleforms, but the vanilla beater aspect to them. That's technically how other games made them, mostly just multiattack spammers, but 2e is a game where being a vanilla beater is BEYOND pointless. Wildshape Druids would be fine here if they printed more feats that gives them actual things to do when shifted than just "hit twice". It should not have taken Howl of the Wild for them to print a way to deal a maximum of *2d6 bleed* damage on your *second* strike.

>>96708618
yes Im using trex form rn but the issue still is that it doing abysmal dmg. its fun that you dont need to invest into athletic or stealth, but man... in combat its fucking suck when you're doing 0 dmg
>>96708650
more feats or build in progression would be nice

>>96708650
They are both vanilla beaters in a system where that's just pointless, AND are generally under the standard of vanilla beaters anyway, even when they aren't being fucked by bizarre form scaling. Wildshape druid has to pay through the nose in feats just so they don't fall even further behind, and at the end of it they then have to pray they don't end up in a dungeon that punishes them if they transform into a level appropriate form because that shit is large or bigger.

>>96708691
Okay so the problem is more your GM some reason giving out a Striking rune too early. Even if T-Rex having 1d12 jaws is lame, that's still an average of 16 damage per strike, being only moderately below Barb's 2d10+13 during rage (25). 3d10 is a big powerspike when stacked on Barb, so blame him and comparison being the enemy of Good.

>>96708701
The scaling isn't necessarily wrong in the grand scheme, but I do complain about the feat issue. If they going to make a deliberately feat tax'd class so they don't have to put the onus on the GM to keep track of what creatures they send out for Druid to copy, they should also give more impactful abilities and metastrikes than just "+1 to Athletics".

Sure, I wouldn't expect every level to have an equivalent feat for them, even Fighter kind of caps early on essential activities and just takes things that look cool at the end of the day. But no one likes the idea of feats being used for scaling, doubly so with them being denied their furry bearfucking fantasies.

Really, I think they should just let Untamed Druid cast spells while Wildshaped if they don't want to give metastrikes or grant more to the feats.

>>96706489

You risk turning her into a one-note if you focus too much on racial self-hatred. Instead make her appreciate her tiefling nature, but make her fear losing control.

>>96708806
I would call the scaling one of multiple minor problems. You pay actions to enter the form, you lose your spellcasting when you enter the form, you don't get any metastrikes or particularly special shit when you enter the form, you probably pay through the nose in feats to be able to enter the form, and to keep on top of things you rely on being able to enter specific forms instead of being able to take your favorite forms all the way through and adjust them as necessary to the situation.

Battle Forms in PF2e are just an awful mechanic imo, I don't think I've seen anyone find them satisfying. DESU I would almost say basically all the shapeshifting mechanics in PF2e kind of suck, but there are some relatively inoffensive utility ones.

New mythic destinies seem mostly ok
>avenging runelord
As int-caster you need ancestral mind RAW because granted spells are innate without other addendum. They do autoscale to 10th and always use mythic proficiency for SAB/DC without using mythic points themselves which is nice. Weird thing is auto scaling arcana but you get master at 16... there are some martialish feats too for swinging the polearm that also strike at mythic so theres that. In non mythic seems generally fine to be a high level archetype for normal runelord (maybe just force the same sin then, otherwise if you're playing one at mythic you don't have to pick the same). 8/10, 10/10 if compared with Wildspell
>Heroic Scion
It's bad, like real bad. It's all about exploration actions, skill checks, incarnation lore RKs as quasi-omnilore. At 20 total it's dying check is down by total of 2 so DC9, so fucking mythic. Whatever offensive feat usually has extra demerit or not enough oomph for it's cost. Like you can pump multiple mythic points for extra dice of damage each but if you expend your last you become fatigued. 2/10 even when compared with the worst WoI destiny. This shit ain't even worth normal archetype
>1/2

>>96709615
>avenging runelord
I read that as "avenging edgelord" at least three times

>2/2
>Timewracked
Good, dedication increases all speeds, you can do innitative at mythic for a point but more importantly - for reflex throws you can teleport 10 feet before it goes off potentially dodging it at the cost of offguard for a round. You can also do a mythic RK that at crit succ has a gm tell you it's entire action plan for it's next turn. Later once per day if you got some godly turn with 3 nat20s you can lock it in and use the same rolls if the actions match. Decent 6/10 mostly because Eternal Legend exists.
>Warshard warrior
starts bit whatever with free mythic strike and marvel mjollnir-call, quickly however it gets good, for 1 action and no cost you gain all around sight through your weapon. You can freely change the weapon's material or get extra property rune of your level but doesn't count towards the limit. There is support for both melee and ranged weapon with slight bias towards melee because who wouldn't want to on-hit do sickened 2 with slashing weapons. Better parrying riposte at the same level as you can also shoot if it's ranged and your armor rises to mythic+weapon item bonus for that attack and only requires a retroactive-miss. Type of immortality is pretty meh but overall a good 7/10, if allowed as normal archetype it takes off plenty of gold from you if you want to play with special materials for weapons.

>>96709665
At what levels do you get the free property rune and weapon material on Warshard warrior? Can you choose orichalcum as the material? I want to play a Champion with 7 property runes.

>>96698938
The whole "items cost as much to craft as to buy" just makes crafting utterly pointless in Pathfinder and Starfinder and overly reminds you you're playing a game.

>>96710114
rune and material both are 14 (separate feats). Materials are "like cold iron, dawn silver and adamantine" so bit gm dependant. From level 15 it's high grade. Property rune has to be common

>>96709402
I've used Ooze Form quite a bit, and it is the one exception. The damage keeps up and the crit immunity makes you tanky as fuck. But it is the sole exception from what I've seen, and isn't on the primal list. I'd argue being a vanilla beater is vastly preferable to some of the fucked situations I've seen and played casters in. I've fought Premaster golems, so I've seen how useless casting can be, giving it up isn't a downside in those situations. Battle forms are also slot savers from Paizo's point of view, likely why they statted them to suck.

>>96705768
many death effects are just damage that kills you if it reduces you to 0hp, not just instakills. since that boon prevents you from dropping to 0 in the first place (you are healed INSTEAD of taking damage, not after), it would still save you even if the damage has the death trait

How do I make one of these as a PC in 1e (or 3.x)? What bizarro world 3PP content will enable it?

>>96712294
Synthesist Summoner?

2e
Can two pc's grapple the same target? If so, how does it work rule wise? Does the person grappled have to make a different escape checks for each person or is it just one escape check to escape everything?

>>96712500
Multiple can grapple the same target. The target needs to escape per instance, one check does not cover everything.
>You attempt to escape from being grabbed, immobilized, or restrained. Choose one creature, object, spell effect, hazard, or other impediment imposing any of those conditions on you
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2296

>>96712294
sauce for the uncensored?

>>96698459 (OP)
2e
So how easy would it be to just...pretend that the gunswords range didnt get nerfed for no reason. I understand the possible intent, being that since its a thing you're gonna be meleeing with a lot the 30 ft range is to "compliment" that but uhhh...thats stupid, the range was perfectly fine before.

>>96712662
https://cdn.imgchest.com/files/bd94931c09f2.jpg

From the holding breath rules
>Reduce your remaining air by 1 round at the end of each of your turns, or by 2 if you attacked or cast any spells that turn. If you speak (including Casting a Spell) you lose all remaining air.
So which is it? Does casting a spell make you lose 2 rounds of air, or all of it?

>>96712853
all if there's verbal component you fulfil by speaking, 2 otherwise

>>96712853
Seems like a slip-up. The (near-identical) rules from the pre-remaster are exactly the same, except for this sentence:

>If you speak (including casting spells with verbal components or activating items with command components) you lose all remaining air.

Before the remaster, instead of spells having the blanket Manipulate trait or not, they instead had their spellcasting components itemized into specific things you had to do in order to cast them. One of those components was called "verbal", and it required that you speak. The point of that sentence for suffocation was to specify that, so long as you cast spells without the verbal component, you could do them without messing with holding your breath. Now that the verbal component no longer exists, I'd imagine that casting any spell would cause you to begin suffocating. It looks like they just did a search for the word "verbal component" and snipped it out of the sentence without realizing that it kind of doesn't make sense any more.

>>96712662
Actual source: https://x.com/LluisAbadias/status/1976018171095126243

It's the guy who draws most of TieflingMelissa's art.

>>96712294
Oozemorph

>>96712853
>>96712904
Any spell with the concentrate trait and no subtle trait has a verbal component.

>>96698459 (OP)
Found out that Pazuzu, the Babylonian demon from the Exorcist, was a super scary and powerful cunt because his arch-nemesis was Lamashtu. Apparently she was such a major power for just whacked out evil shit, praying to another uber powerful demon and risking their wrath was a far better prospect than MAYBE getting her attention in any way at all.

It's like asking for Satan to help you out because MEGA Satan might visit you later.

>20 goblins form a rabble
>this somehow gives them, collectively, weirdly high saves and a unified HP pool to resist AOE spells a low level goblin should never survive
>this also conveniently makes it so they all collectively die in a few fighter swings, when normally 20 goblins would be a nuisance to even a significantly higher level fighter
Paizo has such great foresight, finding situations in which fighter might not be the best attacker in the game and resolving them in advance.

>>96713373
Mob rules have been a thing for a while. Hell, Genesys has them baked in instead of them being alternate rules like most games.

>>96712821
>>96713010
Thank you most kindly.

>>96708864
>>96708806
I know this is sounding more and more like and Ad but fuck it i really like the product and i want him to make more. The form spell book from redux series does fix all these issues. All the spells heighten up to rank 10, you get strong math and your size is based on what creature you choose instead of being forced to get larger the higher rank you go.

For those that run APs, how do you unfuck the fact that Paizo hides the BBEG until the last door of the campaign is opened?

>>96714639
Rewrite the whole story and make BBEG harass players over the whole campaign

>>96713512
Troops being resilient to AOE damage and dying easily to single target damage is a stats issue, not a rules issue.

>>96712694
As easy as it is to number tweak any other item, I.E. telling your players to shut the fuck up and just roll with it.

What loot do I give my Earth/Fire Kineticist?
>doesn't need weapons or armor because impulses
>can't use casting tools
>potions I guess? That doesn't seem all that fun
I do need to find them a source of recipes since they have the Herbalist Archetype but besides that I'm drawing a blank.

>>96716029
they still need armor runes and gate attenuators, and there's always skill bonus items or other utility items. Maybe go for a banner or something that benefits the team, or shields if they want to get cute as a frontliner.

>>96698459 (OP)
Can you guys think of reasons for sane women willingly and voluntarily worshipping thr fuckermommy? Despite of having to go through fucking with monsters and animals and giving birth to mutant babies? Who and why would one become her cleric?

>>96716471
You either get indoctrinated and slide into being an insane cultist, or else get tricked by people conveniently leaving out all the nasty parts of her and are an ignorant practitioner. Alternatively they pray to her in the same way that one tells an annoying salesmen to stop bothering them without outright going "fuck off".

>>96716086
Doing ABP so runes are out other than property runes (although I did forget those). Banner or shields is an interesting idea though since they have sat at the front and beat stuff up alongside the Fighter. I'll look into that for sure.

2e
So i am making a ruffian rogue for a new campaign (thinking maybe orc heritage for some of the nice ancestry feats?) and i was wanting some suggestions on a fitting background choice themed around them being a former slave. i wasnt sure if i should pick prisoner, gladiator or servant. opinions and advice for ruffian rogue builds?

>>96700733
exemplar was such a mistake. I like it but it threw so many things off balance

>>96717016
Your background choice is informed by your ability score spread. As a Ruffian, you're picking strength as your key ability score. You have limited use for intelligence or charisma (unless you're interested in a skill or ability that uses those), which generally leaves you with constitution, dexterity, and wisdom as the stats you care about. Each of those boosts one of your saving throws, while constitution increases your HP and dex allows you to cap out your AC. At character creation, you're generally looking at +4 strength/+3 constitution/+1 dex (to cap out your breastplate, which is the easiest medium armor to reach +5 AC with)/+1 wisdom. This means that, right out the gate, you're looking for a background that either boosts strength or constitution. Because you're a rogue, you've got about a trillion skill increases, so nothing else about your background is all that important, although it's a bonus if it gives you skills or feats that you were going to get anyway. Just for reference, here's a table of all the common backgrounds that boost strength or con:

https://2e.aonprd.com/Backgrounds.aspx?include-attributes=constitution+strength&include-rarities=common&sort=name-asc&display=table&columns=pfs+ability+skill+feat+rarity+summary+source

I'd say away from Servant, but both Prisoner and Gladiator show up on that list. So do Miner and Laborer, which both also seem like they might fit, depending on what kind of slave the character was.

For ruffian rogue in general, you generally just take advantage of the biggest weapon you can sneak attack with that strikes your fancy (longpsear is a favorite, due to its Reach trait) and wail on things. Feat-wise, aside from the standard must-picks at 6 (Gang Up), 8 (Opportune Backstab), and 10 (your racket-specific Debilitation), your feat list is kind of wide open. You could also go for a free-hand build to take advantage of that high strength score for combat maneuvers if you feel like it.

>>96705774
what, for real?

>>96716559
>Alternatively they pray to her in the same way that one tells an annoying salesmen to stop bothering them without outright going "fuck off".
That's how a lot of nature gods were worshipped. It's like how Neptune wasn't "worshipped" as much as he was asked "please don't make things too hard on me, sea god".

1E question.
When you cast a spell outside of battle do you make a concentration check? Can you make a concentration check while walking?

>>96717194
The class itself didn't throw off shit given it came so much later than inventor, and we've had plenty of times where "just play X and call it Y" get thrown around. All exemplar really shows is that Paizo is lazy as fuck and didn't put any effort into proofing many classes for their archetype versions to keep them from being overbearing.

>>96717196
>which generally leaves you with constitution, dexterity, and wisdom as the stats you care about
That goes for every character

Is 2e CR as good as 1E CR? I know D&D 5e has garbage CR, but I always thought pf1e was decent.

>>96717586
PF1e CR is a joke that barely told you anything and could often just outright lie to you if a particular monster had certain special abilities. Competent parties could go up going against PL+8 CR encounters and just flex on them, and then average parties could stumble across a PL-3 monster that wipes them because oops they failed a save vs the aura of go fuck yourself.

PF2e monster levels will give you an actually reasonable guideline of level-appropriate threats, and it's far less likely you get blindsided by a fucked up ability you didn't think about. That can still happen, I can't pretend there isn't horseshit in there, but it's less likely. It also helps that player power is generally reigned in, so fighting a PL+4 monster is actually a nailbiting challenge, or even borderline impossible if you're low enough level, but low level fucking sucks in both games so lol lmao lol

>>96717480
>When you cast a spell outside of battle do you make a concentration check?
If necessary. There are even specific rules for making concentration checks in unstable terrain such as a ship in storm.
>Can you make a concentration check while walking?
As normal. Concentrating on a spell usually requires a standard action each round, so you still have the move action to walk forward.

>>96713373
4e D&D minion rules are superior to PF mob rules and it's not even close.

Trying to make a boss guy for PF2e. Is this dogshit or nah?

>>96718878
Nah.

>>96719110
Depends on your player's builds. Those are all great things to use on melee and stealthy types, but if they don't have a caster to debuff him, they're in trouble.

>>96719138
Champion, Barbarian, Ranger. So far, they're all only level 1 and this guy is meant for wayyy later, but they're in his city and planning to piss him off soon.

Part of Me would like to see them confront him early and realize he's out of their league and watch them figure out something more creative than "whack it til it dies" to get rid of him, like a big rock or poisoning his food.

I plan to run him so that when he's confronted (regardless of PCs level), his main strategy will be to stand still in one spot just blocking and hitting anything that gets close.

>>96717390
Yes. The archetype's spells are cast as innate spells, but with no clause to specify their spellcasting attribute, they default to charisma. Conveniently the one stat that will always be a wizard's lowest!
While this is the kind of thing they push on to freelance writers who might not be as familiar with this stuff as they should be, making it all but certain to be incompetence rather than malice, it is extremely frustrating (and slightly suspect) that it always seems to be the INT-based classes and non-occult casters that catch the brunt of this.

>>96719324
I'd just homebrew it. looking at the dedication it seems fairly lackluster. we're gonna start that adventure path and I might do a polearm-weikding inexorable iron magus with archfiend just to dunk on runelords. I can squeeze in all the wizard spellcasting feats easily.

>>96719542
>I'd just homebrew it
You're right that there is an easy and obvious solution to the problem, but it's that the problem exists in the first place that frustrates me.

>>96719324
Why don't they have at least one person who plays the game read the draft?

>>96720063
Man, even the people that write the core rulebooks don't play the game. Anyone that made Munitions Master Inventor very clearly never sat down and played even a oneshot. I don't really have much expectations for the AP team, though I am at least crossing my fingers this will be the last time we get retarded mistakes like this with the AP production change.

>>96719875
it occurs to me it's the kind of thing that could be fixed with a simple general rule or formula guideline. same for skill increases via archetypes and multiclass archetype feat designs

>>96720525
>the people that write the core rulebooks don't play the game
I mean... can you really blame them?

None of the links in the pastebin work anymore
Where can I get a pirated version of Pf2e REMASTERED begginer box ?

>>96721948
>>CHECK THE SHARE THREAD FOR MISSING MATERIALS<<
Guess your eyes don't work either

>>96721215
Even as a funny "lmao not even paizo wants to play 2e" take that, they are the ones that give us the slop. They are not allowed to not eat it with us.

>>96720525
>>96721215
Does it count as "not playing the game" when some of the writers openly admit their tables heavily houserule the shit out of the game?

>>96724640
I like the one house rule in foundry you can toggle which adds 10 to a roll below 10 on a hero point reroll. Still a failure on a 1 though my players feel especially robbed on those, but sometimes it just wasnt meant to happen...

>>96720525
>Hey do you think it might be a problem that the classes we want to use Recall Knowledge have consistently the worst Initiative scores across all the classes, so when the knowledge would be most valuable (before the monsters run up and kill you), they are unable to obtain it?
>What? No. Casters were OP in PF1e, you know. We can just make some martial classes that are far better at it anyway.

>>96720525
>Anyone that made Munitions Master Inventor very clearly never sat down and played even a oneshot.
The most baffling thing about that archetype is it's actually... Really close to almost being pretty good, as far as inventor shit goes, imo? Most of what it needs is just some rough QoL. Pack in a few parts that should have been folded into the base functionality (like the quick deploy), add scaling to the single target version, give it a proper lategame DC scaling, and bam, something I might even be able to suggest to anyone, ever.

Class Archetypes shouldn't exist and subclasses should be more liberal about changing features
Eldritch Trickster should have been treated better

>>96727399
The houserule I used when I GMed was that your minimum degree of success is 1 higher than your initial roll (except success->crit success on offensive rolls, which I would probably not enforce in a party that didn't have a magus, and grandfathered-in hammer crit spec, and Phantasmal Doorknobs, and Crushing runes).

Seems about the same either way, I think? Although if the +10 applies to both the original roll and the new roll it's a little busted for critraping, I think. Then again, the designers worrying about that kind of thing led to 70% of everything that annoyed me about PF2e to begin with.

>>96728448
I somewhat agree, but I don't really know a smoother way of handling it.
Cleric Doctrines and Striker Operative kind of shows why it's not advisable to have subclasses alter class features. It becomes really messy and bloated to describe what's being changed and there is only so much power and description you can put into a class feature text box. It also limits the ability to multiclass, as your archetype is just banned from letting you take the subclass, so also all those feats that have to be purposed-built around the feature swapping subclass would also be banned. There's a difference between something like giving Drifter Gunslinger martial weapon scaling with a simple text and doing Runelord on the base Wizard...

The game would need to be setup like 5e more to handle such, create deliberate gaps where subclasses are meant to fill in, but that creates a flat power budget expectation for classes and that can be difficult to justify for more esoteric concepts like Oracle, Investigator, Exemplar, or Animist. I do wish there was more consistency in 2e subclass design, and Class Archetypes are one of, if not the most disappointing part of 2e, but I can't really what could be done to the core concept to make it less of a pain.

>>96727916
I definitely see the concept, but it is clear they did not put enough in it. It's own innovations is remarkably bland, and not getting Legendary Class DC despite the moderately faster DC scaling is...a decision. And still being bootstrapped to Inventor and its scuffedness, now without the action economy or repositioning to make its good Unstable powers like Megavolt work is...yeah, zero fucking playtesting.

>>96727807
You can play some of the WIS scaling classes like Cleric and Animist. All the INT guys but Commander and Investigator being slow is pretty lame, but not the end of the world or even the biggest middle finger Paizo have in their sleeves for casters.

>>96727916
>it's actually... Really close to almost being pretty good, as far as inventor shit goes
That's probably the most damning condemnation of inventor you could ever give.
MM is basically a wizard that can only cast caustic blast. That's the entire CA.

>>96728820
>>96728782
>That's probably the most damning condemnation of inventor you could ever give.
It really is, huh. I think I'm definitely way more mad about Battle Herald given I actually care infinitely more about "martial aura cleric" than "siege cannon engineer". Fuckin' dogshit archetype that just barely fails to actually live up to a single goddamn thing it set out to do every chance it got.

>get frustrated about a particular rule or player option
>start drafting homebrew solutions
>slowly scope creep far beyond the original plan
>get fatigue and abandon it, stop thinking about ttrpgs at all for a while to clear my head
>do the exact same thing again 1 month later
I hate what PF2e has done to me.

>>96728851
Play a new system.

>>96728840
Oh I can be mad ALLLLLLLLLLLLL day about Battle Harbinger, but we are talking about CORE book options. We know the LO team is like the worst of Paizo's divisions, cause at least the AP team can create cool options. The best thing the LO team ever made basically crippled Monk's viability HARD (not to restart this conversations, I'm a Monk glazer, just saying Spirit Warrior is stupid).

>>96728782
The WIS scaling thing is bizarre because they fucking solved it. I agree with them that it's really strong that classes get to use WIS for offense, initiative, and Will saves. The other classes in the game for sure deserve compensation. But that compensation stopped at martial classes for some reason. Not having Initiative be it's own stat doesn't even make sense at this point. There's caster initiative, martial initiative, and then a few exceptions that get to be better than than both. 90% of the classes and ancestries have the same WIS score when character creation is over, after that it's just a trap to see if you have the IQ to raise your WIS every time it's available.

And the idea that it isn't the biggest middle finger to casters is part of why the caster debate is really shitty. People think you can fix it with one or two things and get really attached to those issues. The reality is there is a thousand tiny things wrong and fixing like half of them would alleviate the play issues, whether people realize it or not.

>>96728949
I would if I could. I can only get my groups to play D&D 3.5e/5e, or pathfinder. And I'd much rather try in vain to fix 2e than play 3.5/pf1 or 5e.

>>96728973
>The best thing the LO team ever made basically crippled Monk's viability HARD (not to restart this conversations, I'm a Monk glazer, just saying Spirit Warrior is stupid).
I think Spirit Warrior is also kind of stupid, but I think that's more because it's bizarrely designed and most of what it gets are things Monk should have access to (but doesn't for some fucking reason??), I don't think it really affects Monk's viability.

>>96729065
Recently experimenting from a player of mines swapping from Monk to Rogue with Spirit Warrior really opened my eyes at how potent an archetype it is, in comparison to Flurry of Blows. FoB is fantastic action compression and does have some ranged utility depending on Monk build, but the standard skirmisher Monk just really got outclassed. The archetype grants it a large amount of range too with some of its abilities.

Though yeah, the actual archetype as a whole is...a little jank. A lot of disparate and messy feats, doesn't really feel like it comes together and peaks really early. Again, LO writers. Even their best work lacks coherence.

>>96729115
I think the crux of it is I think Monk was always outclassed, and that Spirit Warrior doesn't bear the sin of making it so. Both things desperately need some kind of rework, though. I don't think Spirit Warrior needs to be nerfed, so much as restructured, and monk needs... Fucking SOMETHING man, I dunno.

Maybe they should bring back Unchained Monk's Style Strikes or something, so that you have Flurry modifiers as you level up. Put Stunning Blows there as an option so it isn't eating a class feat.

Cis straight white male fighter
Time to play wokefinder

I wanna see alien cultures with fucked up social norms.

I would rather have less classes with books of more options for them then twenty four one note classes with only default options.

>>96730385
that goes against paizo design philosophy

>>96728782
>It also limits the ability to multiclass, as your archetype is just banned from letting you take the subclass
I like the multiclass archetypes that let you pick a subclass as well, and think they could have gone further with those. The class progression is barred form them so I don't see the need to ban.

>>96720946
Would there be any actual balance problem with just changing innate spells to use your class's spellcasting stat if you have one and only defaulting to charisma if don't?

>>96730933
no, anything that relies on your spellcasting dc/attack bonus is completely inconsequential compared to what martials can do
you could even throw a +3 item bonus on top of that and it still wouldn't matter

>>96729040
I wish you the best of luck in your tragic story.

>make Raging Thrower Barbarian in 2e
>mfw my party is a Rogue, a Wizard and a Bard so I'm still the frontline guy but with a slightly worse con mod than a normal barbarian and my weapon has a kinda moot returning rune on it instead of like ice or some shit

>>96732399
>Barbarian
respec into fighter
>Bard
respec into cleric

>>96698459 (OP)
Lol, I remember one time I had my party raid an abandoned temple of Lamashtu. One of the rooms was a birthing (more like wombbursting) room, in which they found a polymorph wand that doubled as a tool that gave a bonus to healing checks and was shaped with one end as a surgical scalpel and the other as a curette for scraping abortions. Also btw on a secret d100 roll the wand would (m)preg whatever the target was instead of polymorphing them and a monster of some kind would instantly burst out of them.

I was sure that I would be called out for Magical Realm, but at the time it wasn't clear to me yet that they're the kind of players who just take shit at face value and don't try to put any thought of context to it.

So for them it was just a room with some stone slabs and a weird metal rod with differently shaped ends. Cool. YOINK.
Also the one time the secret roll was rolled, it was against an elemental so yeah it kind of blew apart and some remhoraz-like hot worm slithered out, but no giblets or anything.

Kinda underwhelming honestly, I had a lot of fun thinking up fuckermommyries.

>>96732829
no
respec to 4x fighter
>b-bu-b-but
4x fighter.

>>96717480
You don't have to make concentration checks to cast spells. You have to make concentration checks to prevent your casting being interrupted by something that otherwise would interrupt you. There are specific examples given in the rules (like being on the deck of a ship during rough seas / storms).
Most spells only require a Standard Action to cast. Which means you can cast them "while moving" (because you spend your Move Action to move during that turn). Spells with longer cast times still allow you to take a 5-foot step during that round (because it's a Free Action). If you're actively concentrating on a spell while walking, you can do that because maintaining concentration on a Concentration-type spell is just a Standard. You still have your Move.

There is no "out of combat" in PF1e. There is absolutely no distinction made like that in the game.

>>96730504
It's more the idea that if a subclass changes class features or progression, it has to be worded really wonkily. Again, see Striker Operative and how it has to take triple the space and have to put so much power into the exploit just so no one can actually benefit from getting Expert weapons too early.

2e cleric is so abysmally unfun dogshit
>Cloistered Cleric
>You will heal and do nothing else and like it
>"Warpriest" Cleric
>You're still dogshit at hitting people, and now you're also slightly worse at healing people now too
>Congrats you're useless
I don't want to be a fucking healbot this sucks so much
>just cast other spells idiot
Yeah sure let me cast spells that have 0 impact on the fight at all. If they ave the enemy gets -1 to diplomacy checks against people who like the color blue or they take an extra 1d4 mental damage when they fail a skill check to impress their girlfriend.
It feels like if I'm not buffing/healing the martials then I'm actively making everything worse for everyone. If I can make a fucking AI bot play my character that says
>Heal lowest HP ally
>Use move action to run away from enemy
>Repeat
Then this game sucks donkeyballs

>>96735435
There's 5 other divine casters (6 if you count Mystic), if you don't want to play the healslut, don't play the healslut. That's like going "god I hate Fighter all they do is fight!"

>>96735442
7 actually with Mystic
>Animist
>Cleric
>Oracle
>Sorcerer
>Summoner
>Witch

>Mystic
and 8 if you count Bloodrager

>>96735442
>Make healbot suck to play
>Make healbot mandatory to party comp
Good job Paizo!

>>96735435
People have already told you not to play the healslut class, so I'll ask what are your party members doing that they need to be healed so often? Low level casters suck ass universally, but you should be able to sneak in a Summon Undead in a few fights. Mid levels you get good stuff like Divine Wrath, Spiritual Guardian, Spiritual Anamnesis.

>>96735498
Being a healslut is only fun for healsluts, that isn't exclusive to this game. And you absolutely don't need a cleric. A cleric just lets your party facetank and develop bad habits. Investigator and Alchemist are both good healers and far more fun than cleric.

>>96735549
>what are your party members doing that they need to be healed so often?
Playing the fucking game. Abomination Vaults has been kicking our asses. I don't know how you can play without a healer and I played 5e where cleric was kinda cool.

>>96734449
>There is no "out of combat" in PF1e
Except for styles and some other abilities that specify that you can only use them when combat begins.

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>>96735556
5e(14) Cleric, on top of just having fucking everything and the kitchen sink, wasn't good at healslutting because healslutting in 5e is just bad. Healing Word/Mass Healing Word completely destroyed fight attrition, you did not need to care about getting slapped around because there was no penalty to going down, being at low health, or even action economy on your Cleric.

And yeah, you need A healer for 2e on average, but they don't have to be Cleric. Champion, Kineticist, Witch, Ranger, Oracle, Alchemist, they all have good burst/sustain healing options. Primal and Occult casters have healing in their spell list. And there are plenty of non-Cleric Divine casters that have options to improve the potency of Heal. Cleric is the best Healslut but not the only one. And Cleric isn't even unfun at it, its ability to poach spells and Domain Spells give it plenty of in-combat prowess.

You can't walk into different d20 games with the same expectations as 5e, they do different things and comparison is the enemy of fun.

>>96735435
It's actually awful that they made healing and buffs so strong, and then made it so incredibly hard for other spells to succeed against monsters that matter.
No shit you're going to use the auto succeed heals and buffs. The game actively removes all choice from casters. They won't even let martials or skills debuff basic shit like Fort or Reflex DCs. Not even AC against spells because Create a Diversion only works for Strikes.

Don't need a healer if you use Stamina rules

>>96735442
>>96735549
>>96735815
>its not the games fault its unfun dogshit, its your fault for expecting it to be anything different
uh sure buddy
not like d&d 4e figured out how to make dedicated healers an actually fun and engaging role 10 fucking years before pf2e came out or anything
and you cant even say "well the games are different you cant expect similarities like that" with the insane amount of stuff that pf2e lifts straight from 4e
paizo are just an utterly detestable company that can't stand the idea that people that play their games might want to enjoy themselves

>96735734
This is the post quality I expect from /pgg/ these days.

Speaking of healbot, What class of frontliner should I play for a 2e, level 1 starting dungeon crawl?
>Fighter/Barb?
>Warpriest tanky healbot?
>Maybe Magus is fun?
>Bother to learn what champion does?

>>96736116
>I want to take damage and laugh it off
Guardian
>I want to punish the enemy in cruel and unusual ways for dealing damage to anyone except me
Champion
>I want to kill the enemy before they can deal damage to anyone but me
Fighter

Warpriest isn't worth considering as a frontliner unless you're going to max level.
Magus is one of the least fun classes in the game, I would strongly recommend only trying them out in a oneshot or similar non-committal environment.
Barbarian is solid, but ideally you want one of the "tank" classes listed above in addition to them since they're relatively easy for smart foes to ignore.
Champion isn't complex, and there isn't much to learn - just use your reaction whenever an enemy hits an ally. For a QRD of what each cause does in addition to the standard "give people lots of resistance" stuff:
>Justice
You get free attacks on the enemy if they hit anyone other than you
>Grandeur
You vomit debuffs on the enemy if they hit anyone other than you
>Liberation
You're a really fucking annoying insect that stops the enemy from locking down your party
>Redemption
You make the party fucking invincible
The unholy causes (Iniquity, Obedience, Desecration) don't exist, don't even consider them.

>>96735556
Ah ok, that might be an exception. AV is notoriously difficult and it's no wonder you all are having problems. It's one of the few APs I've played where I would genuinely advise the GM to make fights easier either by cutting them or toning down some of the creature mechanics.

>>96736076
There are fun healers, I just wouldn't consider Cleric one. Medic is a strong archetype you can slap on anything. Divine Witches have some fun abilities.

>>96736504
>There are fun healers
Correction: There COULD be a fun healer if Commander's rallying banner wasn't on the 10 minute NO FUN ALLOWED cooldown.
No caster is fun, nor will any of them ever be fun by the nature of pf2e, and medic does not bring enough in-combat healing to be called a healer.

>>96737005
How much healing do you need in one combat?? One mass heal + Battle Medicine is pretty much all you really need for any encounter. Can also stock up on healing potions and elixirs of life too. And depending on how much you consider Kineticist a caster or not, that's pretty much infinite healing.

>>96736312
Obedience and Desecration do have some niche builds. Obedience is one that doesn't require sanctification and have a pretty potent reaction, while Desecration is a lot of additional defense for multiclasses that don't need to cover for the party.

Iniquity...I got nothing. Continue to ignore.

>the Witchwarper is literally the 40k Psyker with the serial numbers filed off
>people also want generic Psionic options
Why? What would be different? Literally just multiclass.

>>96737115
>How much healing do you need in one combat??
Situation A: You need a combat healer. In this case you're gonna need A LOT of healing, as in multiple max rank casts of heal.
Situation B: You don't need quite that much healing. In which case, you drop the idea of a healer entirely and kill stuff faster so you don't need a mediocre healer.
>kineticist
In fairness, I kinda forgot this one. Which is definitely my bad considering I played and quite enjoyed a water/wood kineticist in a oneshot. Definitely not the greatest thing ever, but... well, it was alright.
10 minute no fun allowed cooldown can go choke on a chode though.

>>96737174
There's a general autism around psionics in fantasy where they CANNOT be magic. They have to be seen as a different system altogether, otherwise you are "wasting" the design space of mind powers for people that don't want to engage with the base magic system. It's not about the viability of magic-based psychic classes like Psychic, Kineticist, and Witchwarper; it is about keeping the food separated. Magic isn't psionics and psionics isn't magic, so psionics cannot function like magic, even if the results do.

TL;DR: Sci-fi nerds insecure that sci-fi is less popular than fantasy.

>>96737216
Even tough campaign like Abomination Vaults or Agents of Edgewatch, I wouldn't say you need multiple max rank casts. That is mainly for extending the adventuring day, not for keeping you guys up for one (extreme) encounter. Divine Font isn't balanced that way. It helps that multiple casters have ways to increase the amount of healing, so that lesser powerful heals still are potent while maintaining their top slots. I think it helps to view the situation as one of sustain, not healing. It what makes Mystic so good as a healer, the Vitality Network recovering every round and how many points it holds grants a lot of sustain to the party, even if it is not as potent as a Cleric's Divine Font.

>10 minute no fun allowed cooldown can go choke on a chode though.
Normally suuuure, but something like Rallying Banner is something that really shouldn't be allowed to be spammed like that given how free it is and how decent the healing is. For comparison, Water Kineticist's Ocean's Balm is about 5d8 healing and 6 Fire Resistance and still have the 10 minute cooldown per target.

>>96737372
>That is mainly for extending the adventuring day
You have infinite healing with medicine, spell slots are the sole limiting factor in the adventuring day.
As for the cooldown issue, kineticist ESPECIALLY should be free of that given that the class is designed entirely around at-will powers and alternative restrictions like the aura and overflow.
Would much rather balance their healing abilities (and rallying banner) around other restrictions, like variable action costs or something.

>>96737495
And an additional note about restrictions on healing: Scar of the Survivor exists and is available to everyone for a single level 2 multiclass feat. In no world where this exists do we need the restrictions we have on healing.

has anyone tried or read the new runelord adventure path?

>>96737495
>>96737528
I'm going have to agree to disagree here, I'm someone that does believe in limitations for healing in encounters. I'm always hemmin' and hawin' about whether or not Healing Surges from 4e was a good mechanic or not and I think it is best to have healing be an Encounter-based power than an at-will one. I like 2e making sustain pretty difficult to upkeep and momentum hard to claw back. I can see how tougher encounters and critical hits can feel very "cheap" in this idea, why one would believe massive burst healing is both crucial and should be unrestricted as possible, but with how potent Clerics already are on this, I feel like 2e would be a lesser experience if everyone had both the same power AND longevity.

Something like Scar does throw that out of balance, but it is also pretty action-taxy and hard to toss into a rotation like Ocean's Balm or a theoretical, spammable Rallying Banner. Especially with the multiclass variant, given how you have to reload your spark back in and NO ONE likes a "dead action" like that (see reloading guns or why Kineticist has the free attack/stance up when you Channel Elements). So it isn't really something I see on the same level, even if it is technically a step above the average.

>>96737174
>>96737372
You know, maybe I just play exclusively with people who aren't irrational cunts, but anyone I know who's annoyed by the lack of psionics aren't saying it because they want "not magic", they want more magical shit that isn't just "another fucking vancian caster". I don't know how 40k psykers work in their system exactly, but iirc they're radically different mechanically (in many ways that just do not fucking work in PF2e granted, I do not want to see Paizo attempt to do a Perils of the Warp mechanic) from traditional d20 casters so I can't exactly fault someone for being unhappy.

I can also still point out to those people that we got Kineticist, and Paizo obviously doesn't want to make another class that demands that much dedicated option support and they barely want to support Kineticist after the fact given how many rules it still fails to interact with, so wanting a new kind of magical Not-Vancian-Caster is like wanting a pet unicorn.

>>96737959
Wanting to avoid Vancian Casting, or limit it to a digestible amount, is a very common sentiment. It is why 5e Warlock is so popular despite not being that good of a class. But I do think there is more irrational ideas that go behind wanting psionics, something routinely MORE complex than standard vancian casting in older D&D editions, than just "Fuck Jack Vance".

Yeah, there is something inherently weird about 1e/2e Psychic, a spellcaster dedicated to "Psychic Magic" and not a truly unique subsystem (watch how many of those same complainers get giddy about Necromancers), and the reasoning that went into killing the Mystic in 5e's Unearthed Arcana and just making Psionic subclasses is bullshit (FUCK YOU, MIKE MEARLS! YOU CANT MAKE ONLY 1 CLASS IN 10 YEARS!). But it is just a very weird concept to think of psionics as above or different to magic and I think people should understand that Vancian casters aren't unapproachable. Stuff like Kineticist is fun and important to the lifespan of a game, but they shouldn't be the stopgap for magic so much as the entryway, as much as Fighter should be for other, more complex martials.

>>96738030
I think a lot of these people would be happier with just flat out playing a different game, because Paizo sure as shit isn't going to change course and I know for a fact just telling them "well learn to like it idiot" is not going to make people any more likely to come around to some kind of misguided idea that this particular magic system is somehow an ideal pacing method for everybody's tabletop play. There's too many different voices yelling about it to distill the arguments to a single conclusion.
I doubt the vast majority of people who don't like vancian casting even know who Jack Vance even is.

Finally getting back to indies, the process for this one wasn't super difficult to figure out, but it's one of those situations where I'm sure that in like, a year, the streamer in question I'm basing this off of will have new content that will make this outdated. Oh well.

As always, if anyone wants to see any of the others I've made, you can find them here: https://x.com/DrumerThead/status/1977430140587012582

>>96737556
Yeah its really shit
The reasoning for Xanderghul being alive is shit
The story is bursting with skill checks in place of actual encounters
Just insane how hard it fell of from great dungeons in Shattered Star and Return

I been thinking of running some form of western with a twist using pf1, but I worry using early firearms commonly would be deadly and unsatisfying for the party. Anyone ever run something like that?bwry

>>96740145
Building an entire campaign around the party having guns as-is will very quickly lead to showcasing the many issues guns cause. My recommendation (and a house rule I've toyed with) is to lower the failure rate of all guns to Nat 1's only, increase each gun's range increments by 10 ft, but also to make it so that guns automatically target Flat-Footed AC instead of touch, because unlike with modern calibers, old school bullets can and will be deflected by thick enough armors, hides, and materials.

Hell, even nowadays smaller caliber rounds fired from rifled guns bounce off of things like a boar's thick skull, you usually need a rifle round to penetrate it proper.

Is uploading a premium module from the ShareThread to Forge cause trouble?
Forge has some deal with Paizo right. Do like scan for pirated content or do they not give a shit

>>96740145
>take crossbow, longbow, etc.
>change the name to a gun equivalent
whammo

>>96740173
>Flat-Footed AC instead of touch
I did that, and it worked out pretty well. Though we had to made additional amendment that sneak attacks do not work with that and still require something extra on top of using guns.

>>96740525
Personally I'd be fine with sneak attack working with it so long as you keep it within the same range limitations as the base rules for touch, but I can see why you made that ruling.

>>96740545
Mostly it was due our rogue dipping one level into wizard in order to qualify for Arcane Strike/Spell Cartridges, bypassing both a need for reloading, bullets, and a chance for misfires, while still dealing absolutely silly amounts of (force) damage with sneak attacks.

>>96740593
Ah, I can see the problem now.

>>96740121
Dungeon design has become a lost art form in current day. Long gone are the days where Paizo would release banger like the whispering cairn.

>>96737115
>healing potions and elixirs of life
I'm never touching this crap again after spending 3 actions to heal 1 HP. Items in this game are beyond awful

>>96741276
They are much better past the lesser stage. I don't know why they like the early game being such a meatgrinder...

>>96737855
The thing is, we do have limitations for healing already. It's called the action economy. Combine that with the occasional anti-healer enemy, and the situation is practically solved.
You don't need to layer on hundreds of different restrictions to healing when out of combat healing is free and infinite. The system expects everyone to go into every encounter at 100% (except for spell slots lmao fuck casters amirite) due to a lack of system like healing surges which places a daily limitation on the amount of additional healing you can receive. Scar of the Survivor is fine, because it's a relatively weak heal that requires 2 actions to use. It's why I mentioned it - it shows that action taxes are the only thing you really need to restrict healing with.

>>96741626
The way I see it, you either need every enemy to be anti-healer, or have incredibly unwieldly, action taxed healing powers if we are talking about infinite MASS healing. I'm fine with single-target/self-healing being pretty yo-yo-y and infinite just for the sake of the discussion. But when we are talking about one dude that can just constantly recover the whole group in one-to-two actions with stuff like Rallying Banner, then you just win the war of attrition by default. That's why I don't mind the once per encounter cost on it. Even if it was 3 actions, your party is not going to let the health battery get rush downed to stop that.

>>96741709
So, let's put the healing rallying banner gives into perspective based on actual damage output of enemies and health pool of allies.
At 10th level, it heals 5d6, that's an average of 18.5, let's be generous and call that 19. A fighter of that level will have around 150 hp, give or take a few points here or there. Level+1 enemies will be doing around 50 damage per round.
Let's say we make the following changes to rallying banner - Flourish, two action cost, and you either get the full healing at single target or half healing to everyone in the aura.
Overall you're alleviating about 40% of incoming damage by dedicating yourself entirely to healing. Compared to being a dedicated damage dealer, in which you'd be adding around 30-50% to the party's damage output(depending based on how damage oriented your party already is), and thus killing enemies about that much faster, and thus alleviating that much more damage that way - Why does rallying banner's healing seem like an issue?
To me, this seems more like a kneejerk reaction. It SEEMS like a lot of healing, but the action economy is a harsh master and every action you spend healing with your dedicated healer is an action not spent killing enemies with a dedicated frontliner.

Speaking of healing, can I get feedback on Chirurgeon (and Alchemist in general)? https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/M89l6Vvf
Yeah I know it's WORDSWORDSWORDS

I've been playing the playtest Necromancer for a while. I'm still at level 6, so I might not see its full scope, but I feel underpowered compared to everyone. I cast one or two spells in combat, but I don't feel very impactful.

First, thralls are slow to set up, and I need them in a specific position. In theory, they're cool, but in practice, when the map is wide and the creatures are large, my Bone Spear can't even hit two targets. Sometimes, I can't even cast them because of the range.
Does anyone have experience with the Necromancer or Occult Spellcaster who can give me a few tips on how to make it useful in combat?

We have a healer, an animist, a barbarian, a warpriest, a wizard, and a magus.

Starfinder 2e now incentivizes Adopted Ancestry (elebrian) to pick up the 1st-level ancestry feat Prop Closet for the magnetar rifle.

https://2e.aonsrd.com/feats/997-prop-closet

Arcane Recall is a 9th-level ancestry feat that grants a highest-level spell slot recasting. It is not even limited to arcane spells.

https://2e.aonsrd.com/feats/1003-arcane-recall

Is this at all precedented?

+5 reach.

https://2e.aonsrd.com/feats/1027-hulking-corpsefolk

These feats could theoretically be ported into Pathfinder. It does not take much of a stretch to say that elebrians and corpsefolk exist in the Pathfinder time frame.
https://2e.aonsrd.com/ancestries/22-elebrian
https://2e.aonsrd.com/ancestries/23-corpsefolk

>>96740516
Crossbow had been more or less fully replaced by guns as the weapon of violence against people, but I'd still leave the regular shortbow and such for hunting animals and such.

>Borai: an undead versatile heritage that can be accidentally or purposely created
>Corpsefolk: an undead versatile heritage that is purposely created, but can also be created accidentally
Literally why introduce two of these? There are, like, three versatile heritage options in SF2E, and a majority are zombies in different hats. At least something like space vampires would have been different mechanically.

>>96740640
Its bizzare that they arent even trying to make dungeons anymore
Shades of Blood has been the closest recently and all put together amounts to what an old AP would have in a single book, while myth speaker had barely anything because its all RP

>>96742854
funny that we have NO undead versatile heritages in pf2 but already have TWO in sf2

>>96743241
Probably the main reason.

https://2e.aonsrd.com/treasure/164-pow-ammunition

At 15 credits per shot, POW! ammunition is hard to justify on a low-level character, but a high-level PC can stock up on it for a free Feint on each ranged attack.

>>96742854
>both of these appear to also just lack void healing
>something that mostly just exists to fuck your party over anyway and has only not earned ire when the entire party is doing it to trivialize certain APs
>Corpsefolk get no strings large size with extended reach that works with everything attached to it at level 5
>something that shit like Minotaurs get fucked over on by demanding a stance+nonreach 2-hander
I know Starfinder's design team has different standards of design and all, but it's still fucking exhausting to see this shit

>>96743960
Well fuck. I wish I'd known about this stuff like a month ago. I've got a rogue desperately trying to make a ranged build work and this would be right up his alley. Guess I owe him some free retraining.

>>96742854
>Borai lack void healing, something that seems to only exist to fuck people outside of specific meme comps meant to trivialize certain APs
>Corpsefolk meanwhile have the Undead trait, which means they do have the shitty void healing to deal with, but also have really fucking good feats so there is any incentive at all to deal with that
>Including no (further) strings attached large size with bonus reach at level 5

>>96698459 (OP)
Hi I randomly found this thread on the catalogue.
About the image in the OP...
WOULD.
I would shove my tongue down that bitch's throat.

>>96745168

It is for Starfinder, not Pathfinder.

>>96745191

Borai have the undead trait as well, strictly speaking. This creates myriad funky rules interactions. Having the undead trait immunizes oneself from various effects that affect only living creatures, such as a lesser death's Aura of Misfortune.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=3037

>>96745257
>It is for Starfinder, not Pathfinder
Yeah but I'm already homebrewing a bunch of stuff so stapling something from SF2e into the game isn't going to upset anything. Prior to this I let him take Pistol Twirl as his lvl 2 feat which has sorta worked but also been really clunky.

IS GUILT OF THE GRAVE WORLD AVAILABLE ANYWHERE YET.

>>96745677
https://paizo.com/products/btq0ectp/discuss?Starfinder-Guilt-of-the-Grave-World-Adventure-Path

>>96745257
Don't they have the "undead but not" special rule like androids have "construct but not" rule? I remember that being a thing in 1e.

Also space vampires are varulack which are kind of tailor made to be recurring bad guy npcs.

2e
Anything I can do as a Champion against flying enemies?

>>96746950
Winged Sandals and the Winged armor rune are the two go-tos to my knowledge. Before those become affordable, Potions of Fly are consumable but, in my experience, if you buy like a stack of 2 and keep yourself re-upped that should get you through most APs until you can afford the more permanent options without sinking more than a few hundred gold into them. That's the melee character tax I suppose. Otherwise I don't know of any native way for champs who aren't built with ranged attacks in mind to deal with flyers, at least not at low levels.

>>96745257
>It is for Starfinder, not Pathfinder.
SF2e is just an expansion pack for PF2e so I don't see why that matters. They deliberately refuse to print "redundant" content between the two of them specifically so you can mix and match as needed.

I suddenly remembered the old 3pp slurping days when people swore up and down that path of war would get its discipline errata. What a shitshow, I'm glad to stick with 1PP only for PF2 these days.

>>96749105
A shame the dickhead who ran the old /pfg/ discord nuked it for no fucking reason, because it was where one of the old DSP writers was actually discussing the discipline errata, before that eventually got scrapped when DSP later collapsed in on itself. A shame, that, shit was fun while it lasted.
There's some okay 3pp for PF2e, but it's not often anything really feels worth going out of my way to ask for and use. I've used like, maybe one feat from Teams+ that was just an addition to a 1pp archetype.

Make pf great again
Return to pf1e white men

>>96749536
>for no fucking reason
Maybe the weight of his sins banning people for no reason broke him down, what great news to wake up to and I didn't even need to ask

>>96750235
I never left king

>>96750235
Technically I never left but the version my group runs is so heavily modified that it might as well be it's own game at this point.

>>96724573
When are we going to get a non shit pathfinder again. Can we get some actual smart people to make 3e so I can back to being excited about this company.

>>96750235
pf1e is probably the most fun I will ever have playing a system and I have played a lot of systems most of which I have enjoyed for one reason or a other.

>>96752400
Sorry, as long as Organized Play is a thing things won't get better.

>>96750235
I play both, both are fun but fucked up for different reasons.

I've been looking at classes for a new 1e campaign and man did I forget how shit Brawler is compared to UnMonk. The theoretical power of martial flex to barrel scrape situational feat chains like a starving man feels really pointless when compared to the always good power of just taking evergreen shit and being able to move and full attack without a specific style chain.

>>96752575
Eh, being able to use armors and shields mostly unhindered and not needing to put points in wisdom kinda makes up for it. Grab a level of Armored Hulk Barbarian and become heavy armored rage brawler.

Borai: https://2e.aonsrd.com/ancestries/17-borai
>You gain the borai and undead trait, in addition to the traits from your ancestry. Unlike other undead, you don't gain void healing. You're healed by vitality effects and damaged by void damage, as if you were a living creature. Likewise, you can be stabilized, healed, and brought back to life as if you were a living creature, save that you always return to life in your normal undead state (as a borai).

vs. Corpsefolk: https://2e.aonsrd.com/ancestries/23-corpsefolk
>You gain the corpsefolk and undead traits, in addition to the traits from your ancestry.

Undead: https://2e.aonsrd.com/traits/191-undead
>When reduced to 0 Hit Points, an undead creature is destroyed. Undead creatures are damaged by vitality energy and are healed by void energy, and don't benefit from healing vitality effects.

Are corpsefolk PCs destroyed at 0 Hit Points?

>>96753092
>Are corpsefolk PCs destroyed at 0 Hit Points?
RAW it appears so, entirely because they don't have any text saying otherwise. If it was an attempt to "balance" their above average feat selection, that's a pretty ass way to do it.

>>96753092
>>96753120

It seems like there is a sidebar in Guilt of the Graveworld that clarifies that, yes, corpsefolk still survive at 0 Hit Points. No, I do not know why this is not in the versatile heritage's description in the same way that it is for borai, nor do I know why it did not make it into the SRD.

So in 1e Starfinder, what exactly qualifies for the +2 save DC bonus from djezet metal? If I have a magic item that is used as a spell cache, can I make it out of djezet and qualify for the bonus for every technomancer spell cast?

>>96750235
Nah, got adnd for that. Keep your bloat

>>96750235
>pf1e
>white
anything derived from 3e is third-world videogame addict shit
begone with ye tabletop diablo

>>96753092
>>96753163
Demiplane has the sidebar in their version https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/starfinder2e/heritages/corpsefolk
>Void Survival: Unlike normal undead, you aren’t destroyed when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Instead, powerful energies attempt to keep you from being destroyed. You are knocked out and begin dying when reduced to 0 Hit Points. Because you’re undead, many methods of bringing someone back from the dying condition, such as stabilize, don’t benefit you. When you would die, you’re destroyed rather than just dead, just like other undead.

>>96757220
Including PF2e?

>>96757220
No video games come close to pathfinder 1e including the actual pathfinder games because of the levels of magical bullshit wizards can do
2e however is clearly video game slop

>>96757848
Especially 2e.
>>96757863
It's vidyaslop, having vaguely written bullshit that would be hard to implement in a videogame doesn't make it any less so. You'd have to be crazy to look at the sheer amount of feat bloat in 3e and its derivatives and call it anything but a wannabe videogame.

>>96757909
Thing that wont work in a video game is definitely not video game like retard
3e is pure soul and was inspired by tcgs not video games

Can't wait for hells revenge module where me and my boys can capture halflings and sell them to local slave market.
Chliax will thrive again, Aroden is alive

>>96758781
>TFW donut steel OC has a bridge made out of fleswarped slaves connected to the Starstone Cathedral.

>>96698459 (OP)
Im going to start a seasons of ghosts campaign as a player so i am playing a dragon instinct barbarian and i am trying to avoid any spoilers for it. any recommended free archetypes for barbarian?

>>96741626
>>96741709
It depends, as the time spent patching the party up can allow DMs to have roaming foes find them.
This has been a staple of D&D since it's early days. Rope Trick was the thing for a reason.

>>96732829
>respec into cleric
Why? Bard is best in the game for buffs AND has healing.

>>96757909
3.x is a watered down 2e clone in this regard as well.

I'm reading the 1e core rulebook and to practice I rolled a character using 4d6. I assume that no gamemaster would allow you import dice rolls, but I'm just getting a hang of the rules.
>3 (-4) (1,1,1,1)
>11 (4,3,4,2)
>13 (+1) (4,4,3,5)
>12 (+1) (4,4,2,4)
>13 (+1) (6,2,4,3)
>14 (+2) (4,6,2,4)
I thought that first roll was funny. Would I be allowed to play as a Barbarian Orc with Intelligence 1 in a game, or realistically would I be told to eat shit? Also, compared to a human's first level feat, is the Orc's +2 to STR worth it?

>>96757955
>>96759438
ad&d didn't have mandatory "take this or you can't wipe your ass" feat chains
if you need a specific special feat in order to attack differently, then its a videogame, im sorry
in an rpg you shrimply describe what you're doing to the gm and improvise it, no "uhhhhm but do you have the "holding two different weapons" feat? do you have the "equipping a buckler without taking penalties" feat?" bs
3x is a videogame plain and simple
thats not to say i dont like videogamey ttrpgs from time to time. i wouldn't be in this thread talking about pf2e if that were the case. but its delusional to say that they aren't videogamey.

>>96760809
>if you actually have rules instead of playing mother may I with your DM its a video game
No retard

Is Renewed Vigor in 2e a trap? It seems solid and pretty handy having a little temp hp topoff every turn instead of whiffing my 3rd attack as a giant barbarian

>>96759308
I can't think of anything off the top of my head that really synergizes with Dragon Instinct. I guess you could go for a one-hander build so that, when you eventually get your 1/10min dragon form you can use stuff that requires a free hand with it (since you won't be using your weapon). Fighter's good for that; you could start +4STR/+2DEX/+2CON and grab Fighter Dedication at level 2, then grab Reactive Striker at 4, Combat Grab at 6, and Dual-Handed Assault at 8. That'd enable DHA > Combat Grab as your "regular" attack round up until you hit level 16, at which point you'd probably just Strike > Combat Grab as a dragon. You could go back and grab Snagging Strike (also from the fighter multiclass) at some point to give you something extra to do with your first dragon Strike if you wanted.

Meanwhile, since you've got a free hand anyway, you could grab Medicine for out of combat healing and eventually take the Medic Dedication once you're done with Fighter for beefy combat heals if you felt like it. That always feels like a really good deal for a free-hand build. And being able to heal yourself in dragon form is pretty tits.

>>96762276
It's good. Less useful if you have solid healing in the group already, and you probably still want to find something else to spend your third action on when you don't need to re-up your temp HP, but it's a ton of value that you're going to be getting regularly.

>>96759308
>>96762296
I just realized I'm a moron and Season of Ghosts doesn't go until 16 so building around your dragon form is a very dumb idea, my bad. I mean the build still isn't awful, as builds go it's a pretty standard free-hand build, but it doesn't really synergize with your instinct.

2e
Is Diehard worth taking? It honestly feels like the difference between Dying 4 and 5 isn't going to matter in a fight that is downing you that much and if an encounter is causing that. You are probably about to tpk or your party is about to leave you to die.

>>96762642
It's the kind of thing that never matters until it really matters. The go-to general feats tend to be things that actually help you while you're alive: Fleet, Toughness, Incredible Initiative, Canny Acumen. But if you've already got those covered, or you have some alternative (like Elven Instincts replacing Incredible Initiative), or if you happen to be a human and just have space in your build for a billion general feats thanks to General Training, sure, Diehard can have a spot. It won't be the first general feat you take, and you might go the whole campaign without ever benefiting from it, but it only takes once for it to suddenly be the most important build decision your character ever made.

Regarding how useful an extra dying stage is: keep in mind that if you go down from a crit/crit fail (as, in my experience, is often the case), you skip straight to dying 2. You also gain a stack of dying from taking any damage while already dying, which includes things like AoEs your unconscious body happen to be inside of, persistent damage you were already taking, or even passive damaging auras. It is entirely possible for you to get downed by a crit with a bleed effect, drop immediately to dying 2, take the bleed at the end of your turn for dying 3, and suddenly you're one stack away from permadeath. Dying 4 is a lot closer than it seems, and isn't something that's only possible in a TPK scenario.

>>96762642
>>96762863
Chiming in to say it may also be worth considering if your party tends to take on longer adventuring days with more than one dangerous encounter, since it helps offset any Wounded counters you might accrue.

The group I run for finally just wound down their day after ~4 sessions, with pretty much every one involving a combat encounter. We only had one character get knocked down... but it coulda been way worse. Pretty much every other fight one or more PCs were in single digits.
>Investigator got crit in the face and put to 3 HP
>Fighter got grabbed and rolled three nat 1s in a row on Fort saves against being squeezed
>wizard got crit and insta-downed
>wizard got caught out by a sniper hazard and knocked to 1
>Kineticst and wizard get bowling-balled by a large enemy's charge and each take crits to the dome, again
It's very surprising we didn't have anyone else get knocked down honestly. The opfor were rolling very hot.

>>96762863
>>96763386
Makes sense. Currently playing a Thaumaturge for CC and trying to figure out what to take at 15. Got Toughness, Robust Health, and Fleet so far and 19 is going to Canny Acumen. I'm getting Tome Paragon at 17 so I will get a +3 circumstance to initiative. The other ideas i had was Incredible Investiture or seeing if my GM will let me take Sanguine Tenacity since it would fit some rp things that have happened to him in the past.

>>96762193
>if you dont have a bloated list of videogame abilities to select because you have no inner monologue and if its not on your character sheet then you cant do it then your game has no rules and you're playing gm may i
no retard

>>96764283
You can user imagination as much as you like, but if you want concrete benefits for it, the shit needs to be written down on sheet

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1o7sst4/monster_core_2_list_of_content/

I am interested in seeing what happens to the remastered hekatonkheires.

>>96764283
If its not on your character sheet then you are playing GM may I as theres no basis other than the GMs whim for what you can or cannot do

>>96764832
>>96765274
>getting this defensive over being told that your videogamey "rpgs" are videogamey
its the truth, sorry
its not a bad thing, you can like what you like, but objectively speaking 3e and everything that spawned from it is closer to a videogame than an rpg

>>96765383
>this bait again
>all the posts falling for it
The sole, objectively correct statement is that all games, in all mediums, use some combination of stated abilities (Chess), mathematical probability and chance (Poker) and strategy (Go) as a part of it's core conceit.
Where ttrpgs also explicitly add the 'roleplay', or dramatic element to explain the mechanical element and it's interactions.
The entire argument about what is a 'Role-Playing Game' is asinine in the extreme, and really has no point outside of yelling your opinion.

>>96765383
Nope 3e is nothing like a video game
Perhaps g
You should play more tabletop games

>>96765406
>its bait because it calls me out
3e is a videogame
>>96765410
>la la la i cant hear you its not a videogame its not!!!
wotc shill begone. 3e is a videogame. perhaps you should play some more tabletop games until you understand this, there was even a nice big movement over the last decade or so called the osr for kiddos like you that can't comprehend the idea of a ttrpg that wasn't trying to be a videogame.

>>96765463
Osr is just ahistoric larp shilled by artfags trying to force a market
The entire osr scene is a joke and just as retarded as anyone who thinks 3e is video gamey

>>96698459 (OP)
>TQ: What one thing you wish was more fleshed out?
crossbreeding mechanics

>>96765978
It's been a while since I've stumbled upon this... piece. Do you know if the author has any social media?

>>96765463
>osr
>not the prime example of "if you don't write it down it does not exist"

>>96766019
No idea, but try asking in the drawthread here on /tg/ somebody should know.

I recently read through the 2e rules and classes after years of being away from RPGs (largely due to disgust with wotc/5e and that being the only option in my area). I had really high hopes because of what I had remembered reading about some classes like Investigator and their Devise A Strategy, or the Swashbuckler and its Panache/Bravado. I also liked the idea of the 3-action turns. But honestly, I really dislike most of what I've read directly and over the last several threads here.
- Most classes have few class features, frontloaded in the first level or three and then basic stat boosts from then on.
- MOST features/actions/spells boil down to conditional +1 or -1 buffs/debuffs. I know it's supposed to still be functional due to degrees of success but it still looks like most of them would usually be ineffectual and dull, so why bother casting or using those abilities if you could just hit someone for real damage instead?
- MOST classes sound like they fail to deliver their class fantasy overall, whether due to being incompetent at their intended role or being a baffling mishmash of hyper-specific features that aren't coherent or thematic. Thaumaturge is a kinda neat idea but I just can't understand what it's supposed to be thematically other than its mechanics. I thought Exemplar would be like Hercules or the 4e Invoker, but they're all fixated on using artifacts they somehow make but only use up to one of at a time. It's lame. Oracle feels like a pale shadow of its 1e version I remember. Guardian is very coherent but seems utterly shoehorned into "guy with heavy armor who does nothing out of combat."
- In the end, the only classes that actually seemed like they'd be interesting to me are Alchemist due to its freebie items throughout the day (but which I don't trust to function well now), Commander, Investigator (to some degree and only if the metanarrative stuff doesn't break the campaign/DM), Kineticist, and Swashbuckler.

Am I right? Is it really this bad?

>>96766786
>Is it really this bad?
That's your opinion, man.
What is your game history?

>>96766786
I also played a decent amount of (always low-level) PF1e in the past, and I thought it was a mixed bag. In 1e, I disliked how it felt like martials were generally stat-strapped and left with poor out-of-combat options (so only casters and such could really participate well out of fights). I also disliked spell slots (still around here other than kineticist, and even worse on magus/summoner). And I hated how many of the class features in 1e boiled down to once or few times per day despite being marginal. But now it seems like that problem just shifted to casters, and while still marginal, at least martials can mostly use them at will. And the magic item progression in 2e sounds annoying, but maybe I just don't understand it well enough to appreciate.

>>96766809
DND 3.5 / PF1e (varied wildly)
DND 4e (liked)
DND 5e (hated)
Iron Kingdoms (liked)
Numenera (hated)
13th Age (liked)
Delta Green (not my normal cuppa tea, but liked)
40k Dark Heresy (liked)
Star Wars FFG (not much, but liked and want to do more)
Lancer (liked, but seemed very hard to GM)

Other RPGs I have my eye on rn are Cosmere, Draw Steel, 13th Age 2e, and maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord / Weird Wizard. Incidentally I also recently saw the Final Fantasy d20 PF1e full conversion, and that looked really fun too to me due to the very thematic and mechanically interesting class features all over the place.

>>96766809
i don't think most pf2 players like the way classes work that much. considering how popular the free archetype houserule is

>>96766786
The game in actual play is a lot of fun, but chargen is kind of miserable and unexciting a lot of the time. Class features are mostly offloaded to feats, and most of them are dogass or feel marginal even when they're good, and the most powerful things are often the lamest vanilla shit. Some classes have good real features, some just feel like skeletons.
>Investigator
A class that is extremely good at a style of game that is just not how most PF APs are written or how GMs I know have ever run, and it feels like it basically requires pandering to justify bringing
>Thaumaturge
It's the "scizo who bullshits reality" class you take the level 1 feat that turns you into the best knowledge class. Not because you have objectively the best recall odds, but because with a single feat investment you barely lag behind someone hard investing in a recall skill, while substituting your Charisma. In combat you can also do decently competent damage and are just The Weakness Finder Guy on top of that. SF2e guns really help them.
>Alchemist
A fucking mess. It's fun, but it demands you really know the secret 5th spell list (alchemical items) really feels like it resents the idea of you playing anything but a Bomb chucker. Its party buffing potential is good even as a Bomber, but it requires obnoxious play patterns.
>The +1/-1 jerkoffs
Actually kind of interesting in real play, if boring individually? Mostly because the meta involves filling out bonus and penalty types to tee people up for bigger hits. A -1 to enemy AC isn't a lot, but a -1 with a -2 from offguard, and an ally with a +3 combined bonus from multiple things, is a massive difference, especially with the crit system.

>>96766786
I will say that I get tired of Paizo's descriptions of things and what the thing actually does in play.

>Skybearer's Belt, "This girdle wraps around your waist, magnifying your strength to the point you feel you could carry the sky itself."

Me: Oh that sounds cool, I guess I can have some low-key super strength

>Strength flows forth. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, and you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for these actions and to your saving throws to resist these actions.

Oh, okay, thats not bad.

>You move with a speed belying your strength, carrying your allies as easily as straw dolls. You Stride. At any point you are adjacent to a willing ally during the Stride, you can pick that ally up, and you can deposit them into a space adjacent to you at any other point during your movement. You ignore the ally’s Bulk while carrying them during your Stride. You can Climb, Fly, or Swim instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type.

Okay, where is the rest of it? Is that it?! I'm still shocked that Shadow Sheath came out as good as it is.

>>96766953
Yeah, learning about Free Archetype being a very common house rule was a big red flag to me. But on the other hand, sweet, at least the playerbase is willing to try to mitigate that problem and is generally aware/accepting of that houserule.

>>96766992
Tiny buff/debuff stacking on general saves or AC/attacks I can kind of understand, but looking back at classes again now, many of them aren't even that. We're talking shit like the Interrogation Investigator's "No Cause For Alarm" triple-action reducing Frightened by 1 on nearby allies, which would have happened at the start of their next turn anyway, and even only on a successful skill check. There's no way that's worth giving up your movement, attack, and miscellaneous. If someone's frightened, it seems like their best bet is to just stand in place and keep attacking since it doesn't even penalize that for some reason (only "checks and DCs"). Or how the Animist Seer gets "a +1 status bonus to saving throws and AC against the effects of haunts and the abilities of spirits and incorporeal undead." It just strikes me as borderline negligible even if you are in that specific situation you're supposed to be a specialist at dealing with. The bonuses rise to +2 and +3 at levels 9 and 17, so maybe it's like 5e where everyone agrees playing at level <5 is generally unfun/incomplete.
>it feels like it basically requires pandering to justify bringing
Agreed, I wonder if someone's made a homebrew variant to the Investigator that keeps a similar combat flow but loses the metanarrative Purse A Lead to be less reliant on that "pandering."

>>96767078
>Strength flows forth. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, and you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to checks for these actions and to your saving throws to resist these actions.
>you feel you could carry the sky itself.
This shit is exactly what I'm talking about. +1 to those combat maneuvers you're still likely to fail because something that big is probably going to have higher Fortitude than usual. And you'd still fall on your butt from critically failing the Athletics check. "Carry the sky itself" my ass.

I really liked Lancer because many of the frames/upgrades/NPCs just DO what they're supposed to instead of requiring checks or applying small modifiers on potential, conditional checks. And the small modifiers that do happen are in a 2d6 dice system where they're more likely to matter. If everyone's broken, no one is. Too bad the game seemed to have fuckall direction for DMs trying to craft encounters, relying on improvisation, railroading, and handwaving. But that's a different issue... I think. Maybe too extreme of a counterexample.

>>96767299
>We're talking shit like the Interrogation Investigator's "No Cause For Alarm" triple-action reducing Frightened by 1 on nearby allies, which would have happened at the start of their next turn anyway, and even only on a successful skill check.
Frightened reduces EVERYTHING, AC included, by that number, and some enemies can hit an entire party with Frightened for almost free. Mass dispelling of debuffs is incredibly valuable.
If you came from other D&D type games, you may not understand how much impact those small numbers have on overall success. The best buff in the game gives a +1 to attack/damage for a single action, and has lifelong application.

>>96767299
>If someone's frightened, it seems like their best bet is to just stand in place and keep attacking since it doesn't even penalize that for some reason (only "checks and DCs").
frightened is one of those "penalizes literally everything you do", being frightened reduces your attack, your AC, your saves, everything. Something like No Cause For Alarm is kind of ass, but if you have an ally who is frightened 2 or 3, using something to reduce that by 1

You have correctly identified that most of the time a lot of the more situational +1/-1 shit is stupid and lame, while the stuff that applies to the most common checks (or just the most shit in general) is usually what ends up good. Bard's being able to just slap a +1 attack on the entire team is evergreen.

>maybe it's like 5e where everyone agrees playing at level <5 is generally unfun/incomplete.
Pretty much, yes. I blame Buhlman loving shanktown.

>>96767342
>you're still likely to fail because something that big is probably going to have higher Fortitude than usual
Fortitude and reflex, anon. Bring able to use them at all against larger creatures, with a skill based on a nominally well used attribute (and a bonus besides) actually works well in your favor.
This is before any buffs or debuffs the party gives you.

>>96767350
>>96767366
>>96767390
Alright, that's good to hear then. I can believe that the degrees of success can make those small modifiers more impactful in practice than my common sense would gut-react for d20 rolls (since I know objectively it's more complicated than "+1 = 5% more likely to succeed" and probably more like "+1 = 20% likely to bump you up a success level"). Just gotta focus on the modifiers that are general like that instead of "on Tuesday during a full moon."

>>96767399
Unfortunately this is still paizo and they love printing endless dogshit, which makes how generally fun and solid the foundation is really frustrating. Very manageable from the GM side though, and if you have a consistent circle you can probably accumulate optional rules or houserules to taste. I don't think you have to play RAW to understand how things work for when you change it, but doing so drastically reduces the time it takes.

>>96767299
A bit on the Free Archetype deal, it isn't necessarily the fault of the classes or the class feat system, moreso on the archetypes themselves. A lot of Archetypes just function better as supplements to a class than replacing such, stuff like Herbalist, Scout, or wide variety of organization archetypes like Hellknights. Blame Paizo for undershooting the power level, but it just feels better for everyone to let people express themselves more, especially as several classes do just have must-have feat picks.

>>96767399
>Just gotta focus on the modifiers that are general like that instead of "on Tuesday during a full moon."
There's definitely a lot more of Column A than Column B, but you are working with Paizo. They do love their stupid Mystery of the Druids ritual for paltry buffs, even in this system.

>>96767350
>>96767366
Bard's thing is one action, party wide, and can last the whole fight depending on build. It's a long way from spending 3 actions to give a situational +1 to one roll.

>>96767969
fuck I cut off the part where I meant to say "... using something to reduce that by 1 isn't doing nothing, but it's still a bad a ability". No Cause For Alarm has to contest with the fact that shit like Champion's Aura of Courage exists and just kind of passively does the same shit in an AoE, to say nothing of dozens and dozens of infinitely better actions you could use (just enter a Marshal stance or some shit). I'm pretty much in agreement, but it's pretty important to clarify that Frightened is a broad debuff.

>>96768018
I just mean +1 matters, but so does number of actions, reach, duration, and applicability.

>>96698459 (OP)
One of my players created a Sprite Witch riding a fucking corgi, and i hate that type of dog. They have a shadow type patron and will try to keep the dog invisible. Please i need good ways of killing that mutt as often as i can. We are playing Shades of Blood BTW

>>96768140
Ask her if she'd be okay with using a dachshund instead.

>>96767399
The real reason Paizo loves their "on Tuesday during a full moon" shtick is for the exact same reason that they gated EVERY spell and ability that allowed players to break the narrative flow of campaigns behind rare and unwieldy Rituals, which is that they HATED that PF1 became known over the years for players just being able to GET things that would let them do whatever they wanted instead of sticking to the railroads. For whatever reason this amount of player agency just really seemed to put a stick in their craw, so when they got the opportunity to do so they filled 2e with tons of options that forced players to do everything in a very specific way or else it just didn't work by RAW.

Honestly though I'm not even that pressed about the preponderance of narrative altering effects being limited per se, but I do have a problem with the fact that you have to spend your leveling resources in order to guarantee access to these sorts of things, but then meanwhile any NPC can just HAVE them without any justification whatsoever.

>>96768914
>For whatever reason
I have been writing some of my own campaign stuff, and it is kinda pain in the ass to design story around players able to just pop a spell, scry on big bad, and then teleport the party in to kick his ass when he is sitting in toilet.
Or just warp into dimension full of helpful genies willing to cast Wish nillywilly.
Or in lesser amount just the basic detect spells making certain scenarios kinda non-functional.

Of course I could just leave these things for the GM to solve and play around, but it does create plotholes that are frustrating to deal with.

>>96769781
Just like how there are ways for players to scry and fry their enemies, at around the level when they can even GET those abilities, there are other options that specifically counter them that you can give your Big Bad, whether it be spells or effects that just straight up counter scrying (assuming the players can even get the bad guy to fail the Will save, which is a whole other issue that I never see anyone bring up), stuff that counters teleportation, etc.

From a lore perspective, the Elemental Planes (especially Fire) being ruled by the forces of Evil is not just a way to give GMs plot points, but is also a huge explanation/ as to why the realm full of genies won't, actually, be just inherently super helpful and in fact would rather stuff YOU in a box if you just came up to them out of nowhere to try to get them to cast a wish on your behalf for no reason.

As for the various detection spells, I acknowledge that they can complicate things for GMs that want to do a murder mystery, but at the same time you have to acknowledge that you're playing a game that's filled with magic, and so tools or options both on the side of the investigator but also the criminal should be employed in order to further the narrative. Plus, it's not like tabletop is an incredibly mechanism for mysteries anyway, since if the dice don't roll in the player's favors and they just straight up don't see a clue, you're now just as out of luck in trying to get them to the finish line.

>>96769879
>GET those abilities
Scrolls combined are ballbark around 3000gp. PCs can afford it around lvl 3.

>>96769959
Sure, if they want to blow their entire monetary load instead of actually buying things that will help them over the course of the rest of the campaign. I've never had a party that's willing to do that when they could instead buy weapons, armor, or magical gear upgrades at that level.

>>96740173
>>96740516
insightful, thanks

What are the meta weapons and armor for Starfinder 2e?

>>96730376
The ikeshti basically had to have sex and pick a societal role or become lizard hulk, though I think that’s been curbed in 2e
Shirren have a trinary breeding system and maroquoi have a whopping heptary system, such that even a single death can have adverse effects on their population

Do Witchwarpers in 2e not get training in their tradition skill? Is there any other spellcaster in the game that doesn't get training in the skill associated with their spellcasting tradition?

>>96730397
>>96730385
Luckily for you both your terrible desire becomes more true every year

>>96772464
>>96772464
>>96772464

>>96767366
>frightened is one of those "penalizes literally everything you do"
How does it penalize my ability to move, buff allies, dish out heals, target concealed/hidden targets, or sustain spells like Laughing Fit?

>>96769781
That's a setting and option availability problem