Thread 96749470

I remember playing 1e back in the day and wondered if 2nd edition is worth anything?

Scion 2e is pretty good. 1e barely works as a game, and basically lacks a setting. 2e is more functional, more fun, broader, and generally more interesting. There isn't any reason for me to play 1e when it exists. 2e uses Storypath which is based on Chronicle of Darkness', which is based on oWoD, but it's a more pulpy actiony take on the whole thing. More bombastic and flexible, but with a fair few dials to tune that stuff. It's not amazing, and I don't think it's as good as CofD's, but it is still pretty solid and more functional overall than 1e. I don't really like how it handles movement, or health, and the rules writing can be jank but it's better than 1e

The setting is very different. Every religion is right, and them being correct is a fact of life. It's not crazy wacky supernatural shit 24/7 but it's present and people know about it. So no masquerade like in 1e, and you can basically do whatever you want with all of human mythology and it just kinda works. It's a setting that can be hard to grapple with if you really zoom in on any one thing but it does make for a evocative place to set a game in, which is generally more important. You could run a masquerade with but it's by no means the default

Like 1e the game itself is split across some main books, which all build on each other, for the various stages of a Scions power level. But now there are 4 of them. Origin, the first and core book, are on the level of extraordinary, but not obviously supernatural, humans. Although there are non-human options as well. The other books, Hero, Demigod, and God are the same deal as in 1e

Other supplements have some other stuff going on there too. Like options for Sorcerers to play as instead. Masks of the Mythos introduces a Lovecraft pantheon, Dragon has the characters be descendants of dragons that have their own place in The World, and there is a whole book on Arthurian myth and those sorts of stuff. Plenty of books, and more coming AFAIK, worth a read IMO

>>96749470 (OP)
2e actually has functioning mechanics and doesn't break in half with dex once you hit demigod. Purviews are more open ended instead of the D&D domain spell lists they were in 1e. Things are run much tighter in regards to how many success you can get per roll since epic attributes are purviews now (and only the physical ones, strength, dex, and stamina) and the scale system doesn't do the exponential bullshit 1e does.

>>96749470 (OP)
2e is a "three steps forward, one sidestep" type of deal, generally improving vast majority of 1e with introduction of its own, minor kinks.

>>96750008
What are these minor kinks you mentioned?

>>96753127
Incest, NTR, transformation and outdoor sex. Just like in all the good myths IRL.

>>96753699
No major kinks?

>>96753699
>Incest, NTR, transformation and outdoor sex. Just like in all the good myths IRL.
Um, pardon me, but what? Does it just mention incidents that happened in myth or make up new ones?

>>96755963
You're retarded. Don't fucking reply to me.

>>96749470 (OP)
What do you need to know before making a character, anything to avoid?

>>96758102
Have some idea of what your character is to be a god of at the start. Also don't spread your stats too thin, have 2 or 3 things in the 7-10 dot range starting out.

>>96759341
>Have some idea of what your character is to be a god of at the start.
You recommend this, too? I swear this should have been in the Hero book.

>>96759386
I feel like it should be explicitly implicit given the theme of the game and shouldn't need to be said outright but then again players can be retarded. What your character ends up a god of can certainly change along the way, but just having something to work towards and focused on helps keep them a coherent character.

>>96749513
>The setting is very different. Every religion is right, and them being correct is a fact of life.
How does that work? There are multiple origin myths for example, Maui can't have wrangled the sun if Tezcatlipoca gave way for Quetzalcōātl as the second sun, not to mention ya boi jeezy to tha creezy and his old man. Someone tried to explain this to me in the past and failed so I have been Scion-Sceptic ever since but would love to have my confusion alleviated.

>>96759414
My pcs got remarkably better in play when I realized this, and I tell it to my players now.
I think the lack of the chatter about being a God in the core Hero book makes people ignore it.

>>96759386
>You recommend this, too? I swear this should have been in the Hero book.
Yeah, seems like an odd thing to leave out.

>>96759430
They duke it out or talk it out.

>>96749528
lol, i accidentally fell in that way back when i tried 1st ed. i like speedster types so i went full hermes dex fagotty without knowing how bane's knee it was.

>>96763266
>It is all these things, even in contradiction to one another.
Well, this is about what the guy said and about what confused and upset me. So I guess I might just be too autistic for this. Places that "half exist" gets my Delta Green senses tingling, not my mythology senses. Thanks anyway.

How does this play out in the game though? Let's say I'm playing a viking that needs to talk to a guy in Valhalla, but the other two players are from two different mythologies/religions where this is not a valid death domain, my most immediate example being that in Christianity there's heaven, hell, and MAYBE purgatory if you're a very liberal little boy. Is this a source of conflict at the table? Do we role play about this? Or is it just given that we are on the spaceship Valhalla and tomorrow we'll be on the spaceship Hell?

>>96765794
The way I understand it is that every myth has a basis in something that did happen in the past or does exist, but time and cultural drift means that the truth of what happened is not always in the public consciousness. Especially when everyone asserts their mythology is the correct one and the others are fake. That's what they mean by "they duke it out or talk it out". It's up to the players to muddle through which things are real or not, and then up to the GM to confirm or disavow what bits of truth they discovered are there.

>>96765870
I suppose that's fair. It's a very alien way to play a game to me but once you're in I guess you can just go with the flow and not get too hung up in the details. Thanks for explaining it, really, Scion is in the sphere of games I am not interested in playing but very curious about HOW they are played.

>>96749470 (OP)
How do the expansions like Mythos or Dragons rate? I want to know if they’re worth getting. And has anyone here played as anything but a normal Scion?

>>96768985
They're neat, but I don't think they really fit with the base theme of the game. Same with playing as saints, prophets, and sorcerers.

>>96768985
>>96769164
Oh right, and they should be up on the share thread too. Check in with them first.

How are Scion’s in terms of powers when compared to something like the various beings in WoD, I know that it is its own thing but I would like a sort of frame of reference. Also do any creatures carry over? Are there say vampires and werewolves and are they similar in anyway to WoD?

>>96755963
*wooooosh*

>>96769814
Treat it as its own thing since the power of plot and story is encouraged. That being said, the shit even heroes can get up to varies wildly due to things like scale, legendary titles, purviews and knacks, and their creativity. Vamps have antagonist stats in Hero. The same book also has rules for playing as a werewolf near the back.

>>96770348
Know anywhere I can play it online? I barely know anyone that’s into WoD let alone runs it and even less people know about this.

>>96770722
>Know anywhere I can play it online?
Seconding please.

>>96769814
In general, a Scion either has a silver bullet, or they will struggle.
A Scion with the Sun purview, even early on, auto-wins versus vamps. A Moon purview could argue their weapons are silvered because their direct connection to Luna.
A combat specced Scion WILL win in fisticuffs against any creature with an equal Power stat or lower, without doubt, unless you have magic invisibility.
To add pain, Scions add can add their power stat for successes to ANY supernatural defense, or even mundane defense.
They may not win, but taking them down unless you are exceedingly stronger or got the gank is hard as fuck (Solipsistic Existence says high).

>>96774864
>To add pain, Scions add can add their power stat for successes to ANY supernatural defense, or even mundane defense.
The fuck are you talking about? Clash of wills? The enhancement to defense rolls in demigod?

>>96749528
>2e actually has functioning mechanics and doesn't break in half with dex once you hit demigod.
1e was THAT bad?

>>96779256
Consult the badly laid out picture picture

>>96779323
>picture picture
I have no idea how that happened. I blame the brain damage from making this

>>96759448
This is a big one. Both editions suffer some serious issues with this and Fate. The end of a Scion campaign that goes to God is for the PCs to become divine beings trapped in their own Fate like their parents, but the writers never really bring that across well. It's a shame because the dynamic of 'you can change the world, but you yourself become less changable to do so' is an excellent concept. The play gets way better when the players realise their characters are going into ego death and become caricatures.

>>96749513
Did they keep that weird thing where Yahweh is some crazy jank Titanspawn?

>>96782879
Kinda? Aten is a titan, but he doesn't call himself yahweh, but he still does stuff that'd otherwise be consistent with it.

>>96782879
>>96783047
Expansion on Aten in the titan book

>>96783047
>>96783118
Thanks, anon.

>>96782784
>but the writers never really bring that across well.
How would you have conveyed the concept better if you were in their place?

>>96768985
The Dragon one is personally a lot more interesting to me than the base setting. Unfortunately it wasn't enough for me to like the base setting. Which still feels like a bit of a mess.

Did 2e ever come up with something for you to do? 1e had problems, but at least it had the clear central conceit of
>Primordial beings are rising up
>Gods are fighting to put them back into prison
>You are children of the gods waging the war on Earth and potentially ascending to divinity
2e, from what I read in Origins/Hero, was
>gods and scions have always existed on the margins of the world
>There are other beings which are more or less inimical to the world as it is
>???
>game
They seemed afraid of labelling anything as the obvious evil to defeat, and it felt more like a Supernatural Fuck Around Simulator than anything approaching the grand quest of 1e.

>>96788157
>Unfortunately it wasn't enough for me to like the base setting. Which still feels like a bit of a mess.
What precisely would you do to fix the issues you have with the base setting?

>>96790421
I get why since the line between a god and a titan can be very blurry depending on the god/titan in question though most are pretty clear. The polynesian pantheon in the demigod book considers every member to be a god and a titan at the same time. The titan book splat does have a few pages on the titanomancy, but in general antagonistic gods can easily fill the same role as titans.

>>96793711
My point is more that there is no clear goal. "Titan" was a convenient label for all the antagonists of the pantheons, which allowed for the two loose sides and the strange bedfellows that makes the setting interesting. By trying to be PC about it and playing one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, they lost that structure. Now reading the books, I can't see a reason why a Scion of Bast and a Scion of Tezcatlipoca would be hanging out in the long term, other than personal feelings. The Titanomachy is back-burnered and I don't see a replacement.

>>96793574
Actually have a defined setting. The entire premise is that the world is exactly the same as it is now except all gods, magic and myths are real and are in a gigantic ongoing metaphysical cold war. They do things in the background and are acknowledged by everyone in society. This should change absolutely everything about the world and society, but apparently it doesn't? Trying to think about the world or how anything functions just kind of falls apart. I cannot believe this world, I cannot suspend by disbelief as it just doesn't work.

It comes off as incredibly lazy and ill-defined world building. More like they just wanted a superhero game but put a spin on it which merits more effort than they put in.

I always see people say 2e is good, but am I crazy or is it the most unclear shitty version of Storypath they've done?

I feel like when I look at a gift/power/whatever the psi stuff is called in aeon, I can immediately see how having it makes you more powerful and competent than someone without it. In Scion 2e the powers will be like, Fire: Imbue legend for the scene, you can make ranged attacks.

A ton of the abilities just say they give other people complications with zero elaboration on what the complications might do.

IDK it feels so handwavy. I wish they'd do a 2.5 with Storypath Ultra, as it feels like they've at least learned that rules need to be clear and abilities that you pay points for should let you do something that other people can't.

>>96783118
Not them, but thanks. Do you have any more Scion images that you are willing to share here please?

>>96799001
They're just ones I made on the spot to provide a direct source for things

>>96799355
Fair enough. Who is your favorite Titan, BTW?

>>96796202
>or is it the most unclear shitty version of Storypath they've done?
What are some better versions of Storypath then?

>>96783118
Is this version of Aten better or worse than their 1e version in your book?

>>96811029
2e since it means other light titans can exist.

>>96806975
>>96810637
>>96811029
>>96811223
>>96811558
kill yourself bumpfag

>>96779323
No kidding that it could be better. Still, thanks.

>>96749470 (OP)
What gods or Titans have you made Scions of/would make Scions of and why? What did you have to keep in mind when doing so?

>>96782784
Interesting image. How have you used this in your own content?

>>96763266
That is so fucking stupid, cause and effect are not matters of opinion, gods bickering over who gets credit for doing something doesn't change who actually did do it, and "are these two gods or the same guy" doesn't work with "yes and no." Are these two beings that exist at the same time in different places, that do different things, have difference experiences and can meet each other face to face, or not? This whole premise does not fucking work.

>>96820578
This goes back to what I said in >>96796089 the entire setting of scion runs on handwaving.

>>96820578
>>96822946
It is something that works on a metaphysical level. Light is both a particle and a wave, the sun is both a flaming chariot wheel and a pile of dung being rolled by a big beetle. It is also a giant ball of gas and other elements burning 150 million km away. It's the observer effect to a philosophically large degree.
Given that Scion's whole thing is about how the stories we tell create reality, having a single objective truth is stupid.

>>96825081
>It is something that works on a metaphysical level.
No it doesn't, this is something that works on a "we're too scared to upset people who have these religions as part of their cultural history so they're all equally valid" level, it's cowardice. It also reeks of post-modernist "everything is relative" horseshit. In Scion, if you have the ability to fly to the sun, and can see up close what it is EXACTLY, then it's not about credit, it's not about "the stories we create," it's about the GM having to pick who's version of the universe is true, and if he has the spine to actually make a decision.

>>96820578
They're just different incarnations of the same dude. It's not that hard to understand.

>>96825519
Wrong. Because you can't have the sun be Helios' chariot, and also only move because it's being chased by wolves, AND being pushed by a big beetle. These things are not compatible, only one can be true, and trying to pretend otherwise makes you a retard.

>>96825539
Imagine being this much of a brainlet

>>96825539
You can't have the sun being anything other than the sun. Helios, and Sol, and Khepri aren't real.

>>96749513
Invert everything this guy said and you will get the reality about the second edition.

It's trash made by the faggots who used to post on whitewolf forum.

This poster also voted for Biden most likely and wish Obama could still run for President.

>>96779256
Unplayable as written.

>>96790421
I also think that phasing out the Titan war (because not every mythology has a titan analogy or some stupid reason like that) was a grave mistake,
>>96825539
C'mon, you are being disrespectful to other people's culture anon! don't be so mean!!!

>>96825552
I honestly can't tell if it's old-fashioned trolling or anon is 8 and just can't conceptualize of a setting more complex than Bluey.

>>96825081
I don't get how, in a world sacrificing ten doves to Bophades will help you get good business, Christianity managed to be the top religion in Europe and Colonialism even happened. Because I think in Darkest Africa and North America the tribals would be sacrificing to their gods, who are real and exist and have power to fuck shit up, and I don't think you're going to do shit to even a weak god with a black powder weapon. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't real, as far as I understand, and if they are they aren't the top dogs the Bible makes them out to be. And even before that, why give up Zeus and Bophades or Odin and Thor for the fake news that is Jesus?

>>96806042
Trinity and all the SPU stuff. Not that they're perfect, but at least they have clear rules. Scion's rules are vague and self contradictory in a way that all later storypath games took efforts to avoid, especially the SPU stuff.

>>96749470 (OP)
How baked is the setting into the game? Would you recommend it for an American Gods type of thing? Specially with the New Gods.

>>96827931
In 1e it was explicitly that the gods left the world to avoid getting bound by fate they existed at different times in history, but when they broke history destroying Atlantis they all retroactively left. 2e is way more handwavey about it, basically asking you to accept it so they can have their pseudo-masquerade. Not sure why they made that choice, when it would have been just as easy to say, "the gods are removed from the world as a whole, but individual incarnations and other supernatural entities pop down now and again."

>>96828156
1e's Fatebinding made a certain kind of sense although it seemed very clearly a load-bearing conceit to explain why the world could look so much like our own but still have its supernatural cake and eat it too. I get that, fair enough: Bophades didn't want to get tied down to your shit so even if you sacrificed ten doves to him in the prescribed manner on all of the correct days he wouldn't give you success in business as promise, breaking the do ut des system.

But like you say, in 2e, it's just handwavey. It's just so fucking inconsistent, and it's annoying that they go with the "all stories are true, especially when they contradict" except when it comes to Big Desert Three (those stories are all fake, chuds).

>>96828037
It could work, although I don't think the gods get much out of being worshipped in Scion, or at least it's not as significant as it is in American Gods. I think 1e dabbled in things like the New Gods (and it was widely panned, if memory serves), but I haven't read enough of 2e to get a handle on it.

>>96828156
2e gods are still like that. They get fatebound easy as fuck.

>>96828975
Doesn't making the desert tree , not real , give them sence of legitimazy?

Or is it me.

Its like they were too strong to be made fictional

>>96829087
Imagine this:

Sacrifice ten doves to Bophades. You suddenly are in business with the biggest swinging dick patricians and you are Olive Oil Man, with more denarii than you ever dreamed of.

Sacrifice 9 cows to Odin. You are fucking invincible in battle, can talk to dead people, and you know a charm that means you can fuck for 9 days and 9 nights straight with the biggest, hardest dick ever.

Pray to Jesus. Nothing fucking happens.

But somehow 2025 is the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ and Deus Vult is all the fucking rage. The president of the United States of America prays to Jesus, and only larpers and crayon eaters pray to Odin, despite Odin being the only one who can and will answer.

>>96825511
ok lets do it your way. there is one truth. now play with one pantheon and horray you're having the fun you want you fucking autist. Its a superhero game with mythos as a set dressing how is this confusing. Just play your fucking isreali game where your all kids of yaweh and stop posting.

>>96829130
You don't do that, though. You sacrifice nine cows to Odin and get donkey-punched outside a bar and die in the ambulance. The world isn't one where the gods are on every street corner peddling miracles for faith.lt's where you go through grandpa's war stuff and find a rune carved into his helmet lining, or a kid the next town over goes missing in their backyard and the only thing different is a ring of toadstools. All this stuff happens behind layers of obfuscation and mystery, a friend of a friend has an experience they can't explain without invoking a thousand year old deity. The book mentions there is a celebrity called Loki who goes on talk shows - are you going to think that's the real Norse god, or some performer with a talent for stage magic? If the former, go turn on American TV and give your life savings to the first grifter you find handling snakes in the name of Jesus. I think the way the authors tell the GMs to just figure out the answers to these questions on their own is a cop-out and borderline insulting, but the end result (lots of people believe lots of mutally exclusive things, and they all think they have proof they are right) is acceptable.

Side note, anyone have the greentext from the 1e era of Yahweh, Jesus and Allah getting coffee and strategizing?

>>96828975
>except when it comes to Big Desert Three (those stories are all fake, chuds).
Those are real too though? I don't get why you have to invent stuff to be mad about because it makes any actual issue seem like a thing you also could be making up.

>>96827931
>Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't real, as far as I understand
They are real. I'm genuinely unsure how you'd arrive at the conclusion that they're not.

>>96828156
The thing is: Scion was never a game to be played as a Dryad and the setting was never inspired by american gods (Your bullshit becomes truth if enough people believes it.)

But because a bunch of leftist faggots on the forum played Scion THAT particular way and started to help writing material for the game, that is how they developed second edition.

That is why there is people who will agree. 1E is complete trash, while adding to the fact that, its also a more charming setting than this bullshit we got on 2E.

>>96828156
>"the gods are removed from the world as a whole, but individual incarnations and other supernatural entities pop down now and again."
That's exactly what they say.

>>96829899
>its also a more charming setting
How so, dubsman? Because last time I checked Scion 1e doesn't even have a setting, just the modern world with a masquerade going on.

>>96830340
>The setting doesn't count as a setting.
Bravo brother! The Titanomachy is also just an afterthought of the game right? So no problem whatsoever killing it on the next edition!

>>96830601
Exactly, now answet the question piggy.

>>96830601
>what did he mean by this

>>96829909
The difference is that 1e had the gods removed, while 2e had them at a remove. The pantheons in 2e didn't pack themselves off to their Godrealms and live in perpetual stasis as protection from Fatebinding. They stayed in close enough contact with the world that their cults continued for hundreds or thousands of years, but also somehow never evolved over the generations. The supernatural world has explicitly always been just beneath the surface in 2e, instead of fading memories and very rare divine vacations.

>>96830898
>The pantheons in 2e didn't pack themselves off to their Godrealms
Yes they did. Gods tend to stick to the Otherworlds because Fate will alter them otherwise. That's kind of the basic premise of the setting. Gods stay behind the curtain for a lot of reasons, so meddle in indirect ways.

>They stayed in close enough contact with the world that their cults continued for hundreds or thousands of years,
Through incarnations, scions, and other intermediaries. They're not often galivanting around the World as themselves.

>but also somehow never evolved over the generations.
They tend to take steps to not get Fatebound to Hel and back, but they're not entirely removed from time and basically all the portfolios tell you a little about how they exist in modern day.

>The supernatural world has explicitly always been just beneath the surface in 2e, instead of fading memories and very rare divine vacations.
Yeah, because there isn't a masquerade. Obviously people know it's real and there when it's not hidden ancient truths.

>>96749470 (OP)
Look at it this way: Storypath also runs Aeon (the super-hero game). Nobody talks about Aeon because it's a shitty system for a supers game. Scion is a supers game where everyone shares the same origin ("I got my powers from a mythic pantheon").

So is it worth anything? Well, Mutants & Masterminds in any edition is a better super hero system than Storypath, so I'd say "no".

>>96831642
>Mutants & Masterminds
I heard 4e came out but never got around to giving it a look. What's it like?

>>96832472
>I heard 4e came out but never got around to giving it a look. What's it like?
Seconding please.

>>96829836
1e era fluff, and when I asked in 2e an anon told me it's an Aten scheme. I took him at his word.

>>96835151
I'm not sure anything in 1e matters for 2e outside of gods being real and having demigod babies. Aten obviously exists in 2e but it's more or less just a big titan that thinks it's the only true god. But that's the same deal with YHWH, or God, or any other monotheistic deity. God being the singular creator of all things doesn't mean much in the context of a setting where objective truths aren't singular things.

>>96831136
You missed the first sentence. 2e gods are at a remove from the world, not removed. Being an Incarnation of Baldur who still perpetuates the cult of Baldur is effectively the same as Baldur coming back. They wrote a loophole about how the incarnations don't get Fatebound because they are technically separate, but it didn't lead to a thousand new cults over the years worshipping those incarnations. They say the gods are secretive, but clearly still a part of regular life because they are not unknown. The worship/Fatebound persona is all also frozen at arbitrary historical points, which 1e could explain away by saying that's when the gods left, but 2e has the plothole that active worship never stopped. The gods of the Nile evolved for thousands of years from the Old Kingdom to the Ptolomaic period, but never changed after that? Even if the gods somehow became static (despite constantly still getting mixed up in the world) their worship should be unrecognizable. That's the whole point of Fate, that enough humans over enough time remake the divine into their own new conceptions. The writer wanted to have the cake of ancient cultus and eat it too by having be an ongoing secret history, and never thought through the implications.

>>96838127
>The writer wanted to have the cake of ancient cultus and eat it too by having be an ongoing secret history, and never thought through the implications.
How would you have handled it instead?

>>96841004
I dunno, bumpfag, what would you contribute to this thread?

>>96763266
If the supernatural is known, why would Christianity or anything adjacent even exist in this world? Unless they want to add in Jesus scions it makes no sense for anyone to follow a religion when it's demonstrably true those other gods are real and yours isn't.

>>96841426
That was my biggest gripe with the concept. There is no way that a monoetheistic religion could appear if miracles happen coming directly from the earthly mouthpieces of polytheistic gods. It just doesn't make sense.

Christianity came at a time of extreme duress for the poor, and spread among them mainly for the first part of its development. It was a way to reject the old teachings and gods that clearly didn't help them. If at that time, Roman destitutes had been able to go to Demeter's temple and placate her with offerings and sacrifices (and I mean the real ones, firstborn and all), she would likely have responded in kind and solved some of those problems.

The setting has to be a different world. The handwaving is definitely too much, so you can help yourself and rewrite reality.
I GMed only once, but I played in Hong Kong and in that World, it never became a part of the British Empire, despite tremendous wars between the Tuatha and the Shen, for example. Temples are everywhere, people pray to whatever makes the most sense in their culture and that's it.

>>96841426
Jesus existed and did all the Jesus things then was deified on the cross, came back and did the rest of the Jesus things. The rest of the gods are just God's work. Thou shalt have no other gods before me (because other gods exist). They're not as huge of a deal but they're still about.

>>96843474
>was deified on the cross
Heresy

>>96749470 (OP)
What are your hopes for future installments of 2e? I heard that 1e did stuff for WWII and Atlantis, that would be cool to see in 2e.

>>96846472
They already did Atlantis

>>96846472
>1e did stuff for WWII

It was really, really stupid. Loki convinced the Aesir to give Hitler the Odin's Spear, but none of the Aesir knew about the Final Solution or any of the camps, somehow, not even Loki, and all of the Aesir were totes against that shit even as they and the other Axis gods (who also weren't down with Fascism - the Japanese gods totally had no idea what Unit 731 were up to or what was going on in Nanking or that the comfort women weren't 100% consenting) were fighting on the Axis side in like, the god worlds.

>>96846472
I just want my Yankee pantheon back

>>96846718
I did like the idea of the non-mythic gods, even if it was very heavily Americanized. They just made the very understandable but also very stupid decision to avoid having their game talk about the war crimes beyond absolving the gods. It would have been better to have leaned into it on both sides - the Axis gods knew about (and their scions may have actively been involved in) the Holocaust, just like the Madame Guillotine helped the Free French violently purge sympathisers and Pecos Bill rode with the bombers at Dresden. War is hell, and all these gods have had massacres done in their name before. Put it all in a sidebar about tone and whether or not the table wants to touch those subjects at all, or just wants to play a two-fisted pulpy action/spy story.
It does also allow for things like a Scion of Fasces, as the Axis gets their own little pantheon of nationalist deities.

>>96846486
>They already did Atlantis
Oops, not sure how I missed that.

>>96832472
>>96835129
It's in play testing right now, you can get the origin edition to see what's new. Largely an improvement and refinement of 3e, some powers clarified and made to be more useable, there's more of an emphasis on Reactions in combat and ways to interact when it's not your turn if you want to, instead of Interpose being basically the only advantage letting you do that without making a specific reaction/contact based power. In exchange you get one reaction per turn by default instead of infinite and now for permanent stuff you can make it an aura to accomplish old reaction damage shit.

I like it because I enjoy M&M 3E as my main superhero system and it improves on the stuff I like about 3E while also adding more gameplay options. It's not a dramatic reinvention the way stuff like D&D 5E vs 4E vs 3E is, or V5 vs V20 for vampire the masquerade. It's still Mutants and Masterminds, and if you like Mutants and Masterminds you'll probably like it.
https://greenroninstore.com/products/mutants-masterminds-heros-handbook-4th-edition-playtest-origin-edition?variant=50447362785578
The PDF is like fifteen bucks if you want to play it now or grab it from the share thread, some stuff is subject to change with 4E's release but I expect most of it to stay pretty similar

>>96846840
They can't do that because it makes the Norse Gods, Roman Gods and Kami irredeemable scum to most people, and they're popular cool pantheons that people are gonna want to play.

Also most pantheons have at least one character who is a good person who would probably not be okay with all the horrors of the Axis powers. Like you can't have Baldur running a death camp. Kannon isn't going to tolerate all the evil mad scientist shit Japan was getting up to.

>>96848325
If they didn't want those pantheons to be viewed as scum, they should not have made them literally the forces behind Nazi Germany, fascist Italy and Imperial Japan. As soon as you start writing descriptions about Susano-o inspiring kamikaze pilots, you have to accept what you're doing.

>>96848202
NTA, but thanks for the link.

>>96848325
>you can't have Baldur running a death camp
All he has to do is nothing. Let Tyr empty the ghettos, Baldur just has to organise the parades, distribute rations to those hungry soldiers, and not worry himself about what is happening behind the incredibly thin curtain. Millions of people do it every day.

>>96846809
>I just want my Yankee pantheon back
Same here pal.

>>96849501
>If they didn't want those pantheons to be viewed as scum, they should not have made them literally the forces behind Nazi Germany, fascist Italy and Imperial Japan.
They were the good guys though.

>>96749470 (OP)
Which is your favorite pantheon and why? And how would you go about making a new distinct pantheon, especially if you want the PCs to do it?

>>96857653
>They were the good guys though.
Explain that please.

>>96862844
Look at the world today and tell me the good guys won WW2.

>>96853911
And that’ll keep me up at night. I wonder what is worse, divine apathy, divine incompetence, or the divine having their hands metaphorically tied?

My alternate setting is something like a mythical age where these were all different earths and whatnot (the India Dionysus conquered is not our India), and the titans were beaten back and locked away, but this had the consequence of choking out Legend in the world. So everything kind of coalesced into one world, our historical one. Gods can barely interfere etc. But the titans are starting to break out of those mythical realms of creation they've been locked up in (I thought titanrealms were neat but the titans shouldn't be like manifestations of them but tapping into their power) and now Legend is slowly seeping back into the world. Creatures of myth have started showing back up in the world the past few decades so the presence of new spirituality and whatnot isn't too alien to people but there's about to be a new age of heroes as enough Legend is out for the titans and gods to have their proxy war leak out into earth again.

>>96867308
Would that break the world back into a bunch of different legendary worlds? I like the concept, I can see a few different ways a campaign could go, like the PCs trying to spin off their realm to rule, that aren't available in standard Scion.

>>96829158
It's really fucking simple, dingus. Establish what god is right, and which gods are wrong. But the game won't do that, because that might offend some terminally online jackass.

>>96867651
>Establish what god is right, and which gods are wrong
what problem does this fix you actual autist

The problem with scion is that it's priorities on what it wants to be are all over the place and while 2e isn't broken like 1e was, it's pretty boring to play.

>>96868044
>The problem with scion is that it's priorities on what it wants to be are all over the place and while 2e isn't broken like 1e was, it's pretty boring to play.
What do you mean, "priorities"?

>>96749513
As someone who was in a Scion 1e for seven years, I'll echo the system not working. You literally needed homebrew for the game to function at all.

>>96828156
>2e is way more handwavey about it, basically asking you to accept it so they can have their pseudo-masquerade.
This was the one thing that turned me off from 2e. It just goes in the "just believe it dude" when most other WW settings had believable histories.

>>96867577
If left unchecked it might do so. I never got a game going yet to explore things but I think it'd be very interesting for things to get more mythical as their Legend increases.

Political situation overall would be titans fighting to not go back in their prisons/typical mythical monster stuff depending on who. Each pantheon probably wants to seal things off properly this time (read: favors their reality over others). Abrahamic religions using the other pantheons as allies against a common foe but planning to subsume them in their own ways.

>>96749470 (OP)
My very basic summation after wondering the same myself last year:
>Mechanics much better
>Setting utter dogwater
Just use it to run a general "modern world where the normies don't know about the special kids" setting like normal. Or run it in the Percy Jackson universe. Either is an improvement over "Everyone knows every religion is true but nothing about how the world developed in the last X years changed somehow"

>>96870590
Sounds like a good time 2beeh. It also comes with a nice scaling system of Legend leaking back into the world, giving a controlled rise to the level of threats/achievements of the heroes. I'd play it.

>>96873829
Same here. What campaign ideas do you have for this scenario?

Remember to sell

>>96869532
>As someone who was in a Scion 1e for seven years, I'll echo the system not working. You literally needed homebrew for the game to function at all.
What homebrew did you use?

>>96883165
I forget the list, but there's two main ones:

Untouchable Opponent adds Epic Dex to defenses rather than doubling the Epic Dex bonus. Seriously if you don't do this you will never, EVER hit anyone past hero.

Epic Willpower: This was actually going to be a trait for the book, but they cut it out for lack of time. The problem is that they still balanced the game around it. At Demigod you can have have 10 mental defense (I forgot the time), but that matters shit when your opponent is rolling 11 automatic successes on a social roll to make you suck his dick or worse *become inactive*. To solve this our ST made up an Epic willpower trait which provided bonuses to mental defense, along with some neat knacks to go along with it. I mean I personally used the Epic INT powers in Ragnarok that let me add Epic INT to mental defense.

It was kind of funny how in my long game the Loki player was considering using a power to get my character to do something, but another player said "Dude, I folded your character like a chair in physical combat, and that guy's character has nearly double my physical attribute scores. Don't try it, you'd be dead before you hit the ground."

>>96883707
Have you seen any interesting homebrews for 2e yet?

>>96886058
>Have you seen any interesting homebrews for 2e yet?
Seconding this.

>>96869526
Shit like pic related. I wonder if they knew about the story where Thor wore a dress as part of a ruse to get his hammer back (although that's all it was: a ruse and a rib)?

I can't help but think a lot of people commenting about it being hand wavy haven't actually read more than a few paragraphs. Like with why the Gods took a seat back, they explained it. For those who don't for example.

Gods in the setting took a step back as the world became more interconnected, as they are effected by the consensus of mortals. To the point for example no one even knows if Zeus is such a pervert because he actually was or because that's how humanity perceives them. Especially since the advent of the internet, cell phones, etc, it became far easier for the way mortals view the gods to influence them. As a result they took a step back, and let their scions generally act in their name as a way to redirect fate effectively. As for example if you can convince enough people that Zeus no longer exists, the Fates will wipe him from existence, one of the adventure books is literally about a band of gods trying to manipulate fan/mankind to get rid of most of the gods.

>>96889119
>did the people writing the series of books about mythology know basic stories from mythology
That was not a complicated paragraph, anon, and the specifics about Thor and the dress were not the main point. Reading comprehension, get some.

>>96890651
Butthurt Scion Defence Force Go!!!!

>>96889119
You know Thor objects to that plan on the grounds he'd look like a faggot, right?

>>96892646
Yes. I'm not entirely sure the people behind Scion grasp that, considering how they treat Valhalla and who gets to enter it in the afterlife.

>>96892757
Right but if Thor thinks dressing like a woman is faggoty, and the text says Thor might think you dressing like a woman is faggoty there isn't a problem. Yet for some reason you brought up the poem that backs up the text like Thor was actually super into cross dressing? Because you didn't know that's what it mentioned. Only that he did it.

>>96892838
No, I bring it up because I wonder if the writers knew that Thor wore a dress once, with Loki laughing at him the whole time while Thor could only seethe, or if they just used Thor because they assume he's a hypermasculine chud who spends his time enforcing heteronormative gender dress conventions.

>>96893114
As an addendum, I think the question is vacuous and inconsistent with the text as a whole - it doesn't mean anything to "confront" these things because the Aesir are down with contemporary American liberal values. You can get into Valhalla as the most exaggerated stereotype of a gay trans person right out of a Ben Garrison cartoon.

>>96860589
Greek. It's a classic for a reason.

>>96860589
Norse, I’m a big fan of the Thor movies.

>>96898779
>Norse, I’m a big fan of the Thor movies.
Same here, seconding.

>>96749470 (OP)
Say that they decided to make a 3e version of Scion, what would you want to happen in the new edition? And if you have any good 2e homebrew please share it.

>>96905183
>Say that they decided to make a 3e version of Scion, what would you want to happen in the new edition?
That all copies and notes are lost in a fire, and everyone responsible suffers lethal accidents or brain damage that renders them incapable of writing.

>>96905832
>That all copies and notes are lost in a fire, and everyone responsible suffers lethal accidents or brain damage that renders them incapable of writing.
Okay, what if there has to be a playable game at the end?

>>96889119
I’m surprised that the giant in the story bought that Thor was a woman, to be honest.

>>96913483
2e needs a Knack for "you have a perfect disguise for this story, but it will fail when it is funniest/most dramatic. Everyone buys it completely until they don't." Every mythology has a story where it happens, because it's great.

>>96915488
>Every mythology has a story where it happens, because it's great.
'Every' mythology? Do tell please.

>>96826855
It's not complexity, it's Doylist bullshit.

>>96919099
>Doylist
What are you talking about?