Thread 96850496

How do you play Chaotic Evil without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?

>>96850496 (OP)
It's very easy if you simply think about it.

>>96850496 (OP)
You're not writing the next great American novel. You're playing pretend with friends. Get cartoonishly petty and stupid, make your friends laugh. Make them invested in your character's antics. You'll always get chances to "get serious" later in the campaign, trying to "be serious" at the start will exhaust you.

>>96850496 (OP)
>Chaotic Evil
well, your character is genuinely evil and also chaotic. He is an absolute monster.

>>96850496 (OP)
I'd worry more about being an utter hindrance and annoyance to the party.

There's plenty of ways to be a law breaking, self serving person without it completely detailing whatever you're doing at any moment

>>96850496 (OP)
Give them a personality rather than just acting randomly.

>>96850630
>There's plenty of ways to be a law breaking, self serving person without it completely detailing whatever you're doing at any moment
Yeah, brevity is wit.

>>96850496 (OP)
You don't. If you do. I do not allow you at my table. Even in evil campaigns.

>>96850496 (OP)
Evil is cartoonishly petty and stupid. all you need to do is look at the current American, Russian, and British governments. Evil, petty, stupid, destructive, and ultimately useless to anyone save themselves.

Well you can be in control of your emotions and intelligent while being chaotic evil. If we take the extreme example of psychopathic serial killers in our modern society, for a lot of them, people that knew them will say that they were the most normal, boring and nicest person around. But inside they hid something truly evil.

Acting on impulse does not make you evil, just impulsive. An evil person can be very deliberate, calculating.

Personally I would go that way.

>>96850630
If your concern is being a detriment to your party then you are already more mature than most players, and you should probably play some other alignment.
That said, what I can offer is that if you insist on being CE than you should have some code of behaviour. This code can make sense to your character even if it doesn't make sense to a broader society, like an obsession or quirk. Chaos can come from this. As for evil that can be as simple as not being remorseful for how this quirk hurts others, or disrespects them. Something like hitting someone instead of asking them to be quiet, or collecting a particular body part from defeated humanoids. This paints a high functioning psychopath kept in line by his own rules. Absolutely discuss this stuff with your party and DM first so they can help figure out ways to implement this stuff without it being a problem. Communication is critical in TTRPGs.

>>96851079
>This code can make sense to your character even if it doesn't make sense to a broader society
For Chaotic, it's ESPECIALLY if it doesn't make sense to a broader society.

>>96850496 (OP)
OP, if you are into anime look at Power from Chainsaw Man. The character is evil in sense that she egoistic in nature and lacks empathy. She is also chaotic and doesn't abide law or any order. But, she is always happy and actually friendly. She will protect a person that is dear to her.
So that is, evil and chaotic doesn't mean uncooperative or unfriendly. It can work.

>>96850496 (OP)
Florida Man, but without the good stories.

>>96851089
Sorry, that guy is Lawful Neutral. He has a strict code he works by, but doesn't go out of his way to harm anyone but his prey, whom he never actually kills and who genuinely deserve to be humbled. He considers himself a villain, but he consistently helps people who need it despite that. He doesn't mind working with evil either, because they're just tools to him.

Now, if you'd posted Bones of Creation.....he sounds cartoonish, but his actions make perfect sense for his goals: perfect his fighting style while deceiving everyone as to its nature, take what he desires regardless of cost, consequences, or others threats, and treat his allies politely and his enemies ruthlessly while not concerning himself with other's niceties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HYXjcELQ3M

>>96850496 (OP)
You make him petty and cartoonishly stupid because that is the most fun

>>96851153
Yeah, you can be chaotic evil and somehow cooperative. But power is also really stupid and petty, as OP said.
CE is a hard archetype to not make stupid, psychopats and serial killers tend to have some inner code, which makes them NE or LE.
I think Joker-type characters would be the non idiotic version of CE. Just a force of chaos and hedonism without regard for others; Or some barbarian king who just wants to fuck, steal and kill to satisfy his own desires; or a noble who knows himself above the law and thinks he deserves anything he wants. They can all be scheming and smart without following any rules or being over the top, just willing to stomp over anyone for their own desires.

>>96850496 (OP)
>how do you play cartoonishly petty and stupid without being cartoonishly pettey and stupid

>>96851169
I do not know this character so I am not refuting anything that you said about him but I want to add that having a strict personal code does not make you lawful automatically.

Your code can very much be against law and order. If we take the characters of two face and Anton Chigurh they go about with a very strict code which is, the coin decides, but this code is pretty much the definition of chaos.

>>96851325
>I do not know this character so I am not refuting anything that you said about him but I want to add that having a strict personal code does not make you lawful automatically.
This is wrong. Any amount of self-restraint or forethought automatically disqualifies you from being Chaotic.

>>96850496 (OP)
Frieza.

>>96850506
This kind of vague meaningless smug douchery is why you've been kicked out of every single campaign you've tried to join, Kevin.

>>96852051
He's the Emperor of half the galaxy, he's the epitome of Lawful.

>>96851876
Chaotic can include temporary eddies of order. And an evil character can also want good things. Chaotic evil actually contains all possible goals and means to purse them, where being good or orderly excludes many things.

>>96852121
Show me his tax policy if he's so lawful.

>>96851169
I would say he's more neutral evil. He follows his whims and is only targeting villains because he finds deceiving the "good guys" boring.

Ultimately he's self-serving aside from a couple of people he considers "favorite pets" and him not killing his prey because he wants them to suffer more. Case in point - how hilariously sulky and petty he gets when his target doesn't go "oh noooo i am RUINED".

>>96851876
I completely disagree with you, based on what you are saying a chaotic character is reduced to be a simple animal which only acts on instinct and impulse. That's the kind of reasoning that made op ask that question in the first place.

>>96850496 (OP)
CE social organizations function under "if I follow the strongest/smartest guy I will be given riches and moments of indulgence".
So all you need to do is have your character trust that the a party face will give them what they want easier than having to do it by themselves.

>>96852121
He doesn't follow his own rules and barely cares about his organization, it only exists to further his whims

>>96852447
Wrong, because animals are Lawful.

>>96852121
Are you retarded? Many rulers are Evil and/or Chaotic.

>>96851876
>>96853084
You're a fucking idiot. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, and few mortals fully encapsulate their alignment in its entirety, they are simply in alignment with it in the broadest possible sense.

>>96850496 (OP)
That's like asking how to go on the bumper cars without bumping into anyone.

>>96852260
Give me everything or I blow up your whole planet.

>>96850496 (OP)
Chaotic evilness *IS* petty and stupid you stupid nigger. You remember kid buu? Nigger was pure retarded destruction. No rhyme or reason

>>96852121
It's his father who is the Lawful Evil, the one holding everything together. Even his brother is likely also Lawful Evil. Frieza however... is a sadistic cunt, even to his own servants.

>>96850496 (OP)
Why do you have to be cartoonish? Real chaotic evil people cooperate with normal people and exist in society. You don't need to feed the proverbial wolf with every single action you take

Just make a selfish asshole who doesn't respect the law. This isn't even really hard to do.

>>96852260
>>96852567
>>96853519
Tell me you've only watched the Funimation dub without saying you only watched the Funimation dub.
Fucking Toei understands Dragon Ball better than Funimation does.
Freeza is a sadistic evil cunt, and a hypocrite, but he's very much someone who respects tradition, title, and the roles people play within a strict hierarchy.
>>96854094
>Frieza
>i
Opinion discarded.

>>96850496 (OP)
I’m a big believer into the “character alignment diamond” theory.
(Sorry, can’t find a pic)
Basically, “neutral” is the most pure version of each alignment in the good-evil axis. Lawful Good is good, but constrained by the law. Chaotic Good is good, but believes in freedom (including when it brings some measures of bad consequences, presumably). Neutral Good is the most purely devoted to good.
Therefore, by the same logic, LE is bad, but still believes in order, and CE is largely self serving, but still believes in freedom.
NE is the most petty evil.
So, a punk who only cares about his own interests but who respects your right to do the same and occasionally stick it to the man even if he doesn’t benefit from it directly, could be a good CE character.

>>96850514
>>96850743
>>96851243
>>96851300

>>96852121
He was a paranoid conqueror for fun and profit and a massive racist who participated in wanton murder, genocide, and barbaric cruelty for the sake of pure sadism.

He is as far from lawful as it gets.

>>96850842
>>96854144
These are the best answers that will be given. Chaotic evil needn't be a crazy wanton psycho like the joker, there is plenty of room in the alignment for someone violently selfish yet still restrained and pragmatic.

>>96850496 (OP)
you dont
chaotic evil means petty douche
and if you want qa petty douche to be fun for other people at the table too you have to be cartoonish about it

>>96850496 (OP)
By using everything at your disposal to enact your evil schemes, you're chaotic which means you can start the revolt that leads to a lot of death because you really need a distraction to get that magic item, also that promise of aid to the rebels isnt coming because you got what you wanted.

>>96850496 (OP)
>How do you play Chaotic Evil without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?
Remember that being Chaotic Evil just means you prioritize your own selfish self-interest above all else, or doesn't make you stupid or even incapable of caring about things like family or a partner.
The archetypal example of how to do competent chaotic evil is looking at how dragons act. Many species of dragon are naturally chaotic evil. That doesn't mean they act like retarded cannon fodder, and are capable of long-term alliances of interests, and if the enormous amount of draconic sorcerers is an indication, even having relations and cooperation with mortals that manage to catch their attention.
You're still going to be prideful and wrathful and selfish, but those are honestly traits MOST adventurers have to some extent already. You're probably motivated by wealth and fame....but again, that's in the job description.
The biggest problem when playing evil characters is when somebody is both evil AND stupid. That inevitably involves behaving like dumb cannon fodder, and unsurprisingly gets you a short and violent end. But alignment has no bearing on intelligence. Evil shapeshifters like succubi are chaotic evil and nevertheless manage to successfully infiltrate human society for decades at a time without being caught.


TL;DR: play your chaotic evil character with the same competence and intelligence you'd expect of a campaign's chaotic evil final boss, not like his chaotic evil orc goons.

>>96855003
another classic example are Drow, who despite being Chaotic still manage to have large scale highly advanced societies churning out shittons of high level mages and clerics and warriors who can fight against epic level adventurers on even footing. They still have politics and planning and strategy, it's just those are applied to a backstabbing cut-throat hellscape where the slightest display of weakness gets you murdered and overthrown.

>>96854727
He was also the lawful ruler of half the galaxy, only ever infiltrates into GalPol space on legal loopholes, and respects the hierarchy of his own organization. He's as Lawful Evil as it gets.

>>96855031
>Drow got so bad that their patron godess had to intervene directly and tell them to cut down on the backstabbing retardation before they totally imploded as a society
Not a ringing endorsement there.

>>96850496 (OP)
You want to see the world burn and the cities crumble, just not be a "lol random shit *clown's horn sound*" retard
Does the giant evil monster that wants to destroy the whole world acts like a puppy? No. See? not that hard. Have some dignity and character.

>>96850496 (OP)
The three big ways
1. Me first. The character just always looks out for numero uno. Nothing else matters. Alliances are temporary power boosters, that can be cashed in at any point.
2. It's all for their sake. Similar to 1, but this is for someone else. The main difference, is this type of character can actually be portrayed as, on the surface of it, noble and well adjusted. The issue is that EVERYTHING is okay, if it's for whoever it is. Maybe the character has a dead family member or lover, and everything else is an acceptable sacrifice for them to come back. Most of the time, the character might even seem normal, but the true depths of how fucked their priorities are, are always there.
3. Hedonist. They don't give a fuck about any order to anything, and just want to have a good time. If pretending to follow the rules some of the time, means more fun time later, they can hold back. Kinda like starving yourself before a feast, so the meal tastes better.

>>96850496 (OP)
By pretending to be lawful Good. Make my character seem like such a good upstanding member of the community nobody will believe anyone who says otherwise.
>What do you mean Gallshank ate a baby? That guy's a saint. You are full of shit.

>>96850496 (OP)
I don't. I play the game for fun, and the best way for me to have fun with Chaotic Evil is to be chaotic and evil about it. It's not really a problem the way you imagine it, anybody who's ever really played the game knows it's Lawful Good characters who create intraparty drama and try to PVP.

>>96850496 (OP)
Chaotic means you are not bound by social norms and laws. It doesn't mean that you are too stupid to follow them if they suit your personal self-interest.

Evil means that you act in your own self-interest in all things. It doesn't mean you stab your party members in the back because having them on your side is in your best interest.

Al Capone is a good example of Chaotic Evil. He was in charge of A LOT of heinous shit and definitely didn't give a shit about the law. He also helped his community, kept people safe from more violent crime, and was well liked by the common man in his area. Hell, it time the Valentine's Day Massacre before public outcry of any sort was raised against him.

>>96854199
>sadistic
>evil cunt
>hypocrite
>Lawful Nautral
R E T A R D

>>96850496 (OP)
the typical marauding outlaw type, some kind of brigand or highwayman, etc

>>96856053
That's Neutral Evil though.

>>96856053
>>96856583
Capone is NE, however its close.
The important thing that's missing is direct will to not care about the system.
A Chaotic Evil version of Capone when they nailed him for tax evasion he would of gone "fuck it" and went underground.
To be Chaotic Evil sensibility must be tinged with passion, that doesn't mean you can't be sensible, but that the sensibility needs to firstly be rationalization for emotional impulses and then act on logic to achieve those emotional goals.

>>96850496 (OP)
You don't. CE is the archetype for the trash. Majority of beings would end up being psychopathic retards with low impulse control.
>>96851257
>CE is a hard archetype to not make stupid, psychopats and serial killers tend to have some inner code, which makes them NE or LE.
It doesn't. They don't have inner code, they have their obsessions and feeble attempts at self-justification, common to most retards.
Specifically most of them act on a whim.
Joker and Barbarian King might work, the Noble is NE. Over the top is the thing about CE.
>The archetypal example of how to do competent chaotic evil is looking at how dragons act. Many species of dragon are naturally chaotic evil. That doesn't mean they act like retarded cannon fodder
It does actually. Majority of dragons act pretty much like big evil magpies and get killed unceremoniously when they underestimate their next target.
Everyone is capable of alliance of interests, but thing about CE is it's all a whim that doesn't bother at the moment.

>>96855079
>*bounces tits* LAWFUL MEANS YOU FOLLOW LAAAAWWSSSSS LAWFUL MEANS YOU FOLLOW LAAAAAAWWWWWSSSSSS MUH COOOOOOOODE *bounces tits*

In a world where earth has been polluted to inhospitable levels by war and space became inaccessible due to their own doing, the corporate and resistance group still fights each other for their ideals.
Old King asks these warmongers acting all high and mighty who they think they are to decide who lives and dies, and plans to kill them all to prove they die all the same.

>>96855031
Drow are Neutral Evil, it's just their leaders who tend to be Chaotic Evil since they're priestesses of Lolth.

It's regular elves who tend towards Chaotic.

>>96850496 (OP)
Just your garden variety generic gang member or criminal.
Loyal only as long as someone is looking and there is a threat of retribution.
Becomes a traitor and a bully as soon as there is some potential personal gain without repercussions.
Blames everyone but himself when things inevitably go awry,
You've met, or are, a person like this.
Play the character the same way.

>>96850496 (OP)
Just embrace it

>>96853519
Prescriptive.

>>96850496 (OP)
Have an actual goal and consider when killing makes sense or not.

>>96857621
take your prescriptions

>>96850496 (OP)
Clinically insane warlock/sorcerer granma who will do anything no matter how heinous as long as it benefits or entertains her grandchildren. For some reason she considers the party members to be her grandchildren.
If the party isn't particularly evil inclined they might be able to tardwrangle her into being harmless or even good

>>96857354
Always Chaotic Evil means always Chaotic Evil. That's my favorite thing about Salvatore, his OC going around all, "but I'm one of the Good ones, guys," and just spreading evil everywhere he goes. Fucking great. Who says an all evil campaign can't work. They clearly never read that Icewind Dale trilogy.

>>96850496 (OP)
just do it.

>>96857631
But having a goal is the opposite of Chaotic.

>>96850496 (OP)
make him ambitious and ruthless.

>>96850496 (OP)
Play a character who hates being told what to do and always puts themselves before others.
Walter White is chaotic evil, for example.

>>96850496 (OP)
Look up how some of the villians from other settings have done it and take notes. Clever Evil seek out weaknesses to exploit and go full on when they finally strike, showing no mercy or pity, destroying their target utterly. The best leave no trail back to themselves, preferably having the blame for the strike point to someone else.

>>96859787
What was his fucking problem?

>>96860186
He's 5 ft 11. God's cruelest trick.

>it's been however many years and people still haven't realized the alignment system from a game for teenage dorks who like sword and sorcery shit is not a cogent system in a philosophical context, and absolutely should not be treated as such
shiggy

>>96857354
All elves tend towards Chaotic. Drow just tend towards Evil, too, while most other elves tend towards Good.

>>96860186
He was born evil and looks like a penguin, but he would still be evil even if he didn't look like a penguin.

>>96859264
No it isn't. Robin Hood is the example everyone uses for Chaotic Good and he has the goal of ousting corrupt clergy and tyrannical nobles.

>>96858023
WARCHAD SIGHTED


Whenever in doubt, just be Warduke

>>96860721
He is chaotic because he goes against the law, not because he has a goal.

>>96850496 (OP)
As someone who always likes to play the party contrarian, the key is to be the butt of a joke once in a while. Everyone hates an edgelord who is both insufferable in character, and also goes out of his way to be disruptive to the GM and the campaign. But if your goal is play as Shadow the Hedgehog straight because it's funny how hard you clash thematically with the others, you'll quickly become the table's favorite.

You don't have to be quirky either to pull it off, being exceptionally merciless, motivated entirely by money, using weapons or tactics that cause as much collateral and unnecessary damage as possible, or believing in outlandishly wrong ideals like total Conquest of everyone who isn't you, are all incredibly evil acts, but become funnier if the baseline is genuine acts of good. For an example, look to the Skeksis from the Dark Crystal. These bird people are so irredeemably evil in every possible way, it loops around to being funny compared to the Gelflings of the world, you may even end up rooting for them, just to see what other heinous, unforgiveable act they'll commit next.

>TLDR: CE only works if the party is majority good to give you a springboard to work from

Evil is inherently cartoonishly petty and stupid. I'm not sure what people expect.

>>96860260
Morality is an objective concept. Sorry your brain hasn't evolved enough to grasp this very simple truth.

>>96850496 (OP)
>Chaotic Evil without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid
Why would I do that?

>>96850496 (OP)
Prioritize yourself both immediately and in long term, take shortcuts for your goals whenever it's feasible and the risk is calculated. To avoid being annoying and antagonistic to your group consider them as your "friends" in an utilitarian sense but also as irreplaceable tools (as in you don't want your favorite tool to break, get dirty or be lost), just think of them as unbearable naive and take courses of action for their "best interest".

>>96856677
The only reason he didn't do just that was because he thought his odds of actually getting convicted were extremely low. He lost his shit at his legal team because they convinced him he wasn't going to get any kind of time.

>>96850496 (OP)
It's pretty clear from this thread you can't be chaotic evil and functional because autists will just say that is CN or NE since you aren't just being a baby stomping monster or some shit.

>>96854750
Bruh restraint and pragmatism are not chaotic. Those are orderly traits. Impulsiveness, and a lack decision making are traits of chaos.
On the whole chaotic anything is best left to NPC's. It fucking obnoxious. Neutral evil and lawful evil yes anyone smarter than a half wit should be able to make compatible with a normal party >>96855031
Nobody ever ever actually writes drow as chaotic evil honestly mostly lawful evil.

>>96855031
>>96860600
>>96864519

>>96850842
This is more neutral evil though.
Neutral Evil is the scary kind because they can and will fake being normal/good when necessary to further their evil goals.
Chaotic evil characters by definitin don't give a shit about what you think, let alone what the laws dictate so the cringe is pre-programmed.

>>96864519
The chaos/law axis has almost nothing to do with personal traits like restraint, pragmatism or whatever. This makes for a very narrow view of the kind of characters you can play with each alignments.

It's actually way closer to political beliefs than anything else.

A chaotic character just don't want to be told what to do or follow rules. That's what makes them chaotic, you have no idea what they will do next because they do not subject themselves to social norms and laws. It certainly makes it harder for them to organize in big numbers, but it can happen through fear and or respect of an individual, or a pyramidal organization based on strength.

Chaotic characters are akin to anarchists and libertarians I guess.

>>96850496 (OP)
By pursuing rational self interest in its purest form.

just have fun

>>96865471
This. My last Chaotic Evil character was a terrorist who worked for a lawful corporation. He would be superficially charming and obeys his bosses but the moment he could get away with advancing his political agenda he just did it. Even if it meant assassinating a princess out of the blue because she just so happened to be by herself.

>>96866045
>without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?
read nigga read

>>96851169
>that guy is Lawful Neutral.
He literally pings as evil from a supernatural detect alignment ability

>>96850496 (OP)
>doesnt care about laws, the natural or political order or social conventions
>has a cruel, inhuman view of the world and is willing to lie, cheat murder and steal to accomplish his goals
There.

>>96866240
I read it and I stand by my point, what's the point of being chaotic evil if you're not going to enjoy it?

>>96861068
Right, so having a goal isn't the opposite of chaotic, like I said. Are you stupid or something?

Post media with chaotic evil protagonists.

>>96867544
Real life.

>>96850496 (OP)
Pretty easy if you aren't a cartoonishly petty and stupid person.

>>96854650
>everything has to be SERIOUS and DARK and GRITTY or it's LE REDDIT
Kill yourself, nogames tourist.

fun should be outlawed

>>96854650
Stealing your meme. Don't resist or do, you can't do shit about it anyways

>>96870009
that's Lawful Good attitude, the exact opposite of what OP asked

>>96850496 (OP)
I'd say the fun and interesting part is where the Evil clashes with the Chaotic. Being Chaotic should once in a while compel the character to do something accidentally good or just, which is something an Evil character would avoid. Bad guy saving the day on a regular basis even though he never meant to do it could make a fun story.

Why do Redditors have to make everything about politics?

>>96870830
How else are they gonna flex their unwarranted superiority complex?

>>96854650
They are right tho.
>LE
Vaguely dickish evil guy, moustache twirling.
>NE
Actually evil, no funny businesses here.
>CE
Gigabased shitposter, kick the orphan human, juggle kobold eggs.

>>96850496 (OP)
Camp in the wilderness and try to encounter wolves or pumas, bears work too but aren't ideal. After that, go to the bad part of town, eavesdrop on some conversations, strike up a few. Once both these things are done combine what you've learn from these two experiences and develop a character based on that.

by pretending to be a good guy

>>96872796
>LE
He will be the worst of the bunch if given enough time.
>NE
Does what he wants, but doesn't really concern himself with the gods or anything to do with structured society, although he takes advantage when he can.
>CE
In my world, they want to destroy EVERYTHING with no reserve. Once the world is destroyed, they will be happy and cease to exist.

>>96873836
Joker used to be so based.

DnD's morality system is just fucking stupid and obviously leads itself to only a few of the poles actually making for playable characters and generally guiding anyone who takes it seriously into playing caricatures.

>>96874029
>LE
>He will be the worst of the bunch if given enough time.
Nigger what? LE are the most reasonable. They can almost be a force of good sometimes, precisely because letting things go to shit wouldn't align with their vision of order. It's the other two Evil alignments you gotta watch out for, because they do not give a fuck.

>>96876384
I don't know about your shit, but in my pantheon, LE is the only one capable of actually threatening the fabric of the multiverse. NE just wants to eat good people and CE is just retarded. LE has the strength of all evil souls that have been trapped in contracts with the damned for their evils. By gaining enough souls, he might even be able to threaten Heaven.

>>96874029
>>96876639
>In my world
So pointless for a discussion on platonic conceptualizations of alignments which is what these threads are.

>>96876657
It's an opinion with "In My World" as a qualifier. I resent that I can't bring in personal beliefs. Would it be better if I used only facts and figures? Brother, it's a fucking fantasy game!

>>96876693
The issue is that the intention of all general discussion of this kind is solve the OPs question with ideas that help in general, to which the of branches of discussion also stem from that generalized point.
While I think your idea is neat its as useful saying "we just houserule the issue away" instead of trying to solve it.
That kind of talk is better served for threads about describing alignment in your setting.

>>96850496 (OP)
It is actually easy if you break it down:
Evil as a motivation (rather than an ontological force) is coarsely defined as unrestricted selfishness, which is a problem in a cooperative game. Chaotic is defined as not following or recognizing a higher authority, therefore a "Chaotic Evil" character seems to be at odds with ever being in a party, even a party of evil characters.

You have to resolve this by choosing intrinsic motivation for the character that permits cooperation. The chaotic evil character must share some central goal with the group and base their actions around achieving that goal.

Then you extrapolate them pursuing that goal with their alignment and temperament A character that is cruel and violent may not direct his urges randomly into wanton slaughter of strangers or attacking farm animals-- he likely has more important violence to do. If he's provoked he will likely resort to force, but even then not to his own detriment unless he is also stupid on top of being evil and chaotic.

Lets in summary consider a deposed barbarian warlord as a character; exiled by his subordinates and sold into slavery across the world. His goal may be to return and exact revenge; but to do so he first seeks power and allies. If that means playing nice with others for a time, he will swallow his pride as long as he's permitted to do as he sees fit. He cares about the others in the party in so far as how they're beneficial to him, and so he won't be the one to cast the first stone over anything except interfering with his top level revenge.

The party, regardless of their alignment, will respect his brawn and efficacy and the fear he strikes into enemies. Crafty party members will plan around his violent nature and a cooperative player will find justification for him to agree when its convenient for their aims.

To wit: The player decides on the character, if the character is a problem at their conception it is because the player made them so.

>>96876384
Not him, but I consider Lawful Evil the only one practically capable of putting the world in a fail state that can't be escaped.

Chaotic Evil is a feral, ravenous creature that absolutely would destroy the world if possible just out of spite. But he usually acts alone and his actions focus on short term, immediate gratification and so he'll often undo himself. Even in the case where it's a horde of chaotic evil creatures, the group is just as likely to fall to infighting before accomplishing too much of note.

Neutral Evil is selfish, self centered, and indulgent, again focused on its own needs and gratification before anything else. It plans better than Chaotic counterparts, but it doesn't really have any overreaching goal beyond itself. Neutral Evil will do things like break in to your home and steal things or kill your yappy puppy if it thinks it can get away with it, but it mostly focuses on evil acts in service to its own whims and locally around it.

Lawful Evil concerns itself with long term, systematic changes. LE creatures are more prone to working together to accomplish a common goal, and that alone gives them far more reach than evil entities acting independently. Furthermore, Lawful Evil is capable of meshing with society as a whole to the point where it may or may not be hard to detect at a glance, and even if it is detected a society might not seek to punish it due to the immediate benefits its structure provides. Over time though, LE groups will eventually impose their will in such a way that they cannot be easily contested without a hard reset to the world beyond the capability of many other individuals. They're most likely to have something like a tyrant gain absolute control of a territory and enforce their will without any hope for the people to overcome him.

>>96876206
It's an alignment system, not a morality system. Every single argument over alignment is a result of people thinking that good and evil are synonymous with right and wrong.

>>96852110
Too stupid?

>>96877602
So we're just making shit up at this point, huh?

I play my wife Camelia,, the perfect chaotic evil character.

Why do you still use alignments at all,m

>>96878634
It gives me sexual pleasure.

>>96878273
There's a lot of overlap between the two, but there are points when they clash. The classic one is the orc baby dilemma, it's morally wrong to kill something because of its race, but alignment says that killing orc babies is a good act as they are inherently evil.

>>96879128
Here it could be debated that orcs do not really have babies. If they are inherently evil they cannot go through that innocent phase that are babies. As an orc spawn they are already vicious and violent from the start.

If they are not babies you can therefore kill them and still be good.

>>96879480
Nice logic, but it only works in a setting where sentient creatures are "born evil." Orcs have never been a completely forsaken species, so what you're doing would be evil. Even if they are the worst creatures ever, killing them as babies would be cruelty at the very least.

>>96879639
Yes, you are absolutely right, only works in settings where they are unwaveringly evil, no noble savages here. In a way it makes them a manifestation of evil just like a devil would be.

I personally do like my orcs evil and stupid. I have to admit that Warhammer orks, fantasy and 40k are my favorite orcs.

>>96879856
How do you handle players going half orc or even full orc then? Just don't allow them, or only halfs that lean more neutral?

>>96879867
That is an interesting question. I am usually in the player seat, it's been some time since I have mastered a game, you can disregard my opinions if you wish.

It would be no orc players, 5.5 racial changes were stupid. Half-orc would be no problem to play as the player would like, the human part would take precedence.

But being half an evil race would bring some consequences in social interactions.

Nothing out of the ordinary for a game pre gay d&d.

>>96880098
I feel like we've lost the stigma certain classes or races embody. Warlock Tieflings should be hated in some cities, otherwise you lose a major RP opportunity.

Half Orcs, and I'm looking back to 3.5, they should be incredibly stupid.

>>96880167
Everybody is happy, accepted and pastel.

>>96850496 (OP)
Actually have a long term plan and an excuse to be in the party.

>>96882274
I'm reminded of Belkar or whatever the fuck the halfling in OotS is named. Always has that lead sheet to hide his alignment which is actually a good design choice.

>>96864768
If you can't play without your character acting retarded then the issue here is that you are retarded.

>>96882260
And then I rape them.

>>96850496 (OP)
you don't. chaotic evil is for non-player characters and anything that would shift you to chaotic evil is another form of character death.

>>96883527
If it's an option at character creation, why would it be unplayable? What you're saying makes no sense.

just do a little trolling

>>96850496 (OP)
Pic related. Most chaotic people irl only exhibit their evil tendencies when they're in situations where they think they can't be punished for it.

>>96885167
This.
Even the most whacked-out serial murderer probably isn't going to go for it unless all the relevant parties have their backs turned.

>>96850496 (OP)
You should watch Mussolini son of the century for a great example of chaotic evil who isn't stupid. All you care about is power unbounded by beliefs or moral code.

>>96885699
Being an amoral egoist is neutral evil.
Chaotic evil enjoys doing evil for the sake of it.

just do it

>>96888180
How does he even move?

>>96888795
I imagine he's like a Darth Vader type dude. He can barely move either, still a huge threat.

>>96850496 (OP)
Playing a heel requires tact; don’t foil your party’s carefully laid plans just to be CE, go along (because you’re only with the party because you enjoy their company, right?) and get the job done with whatever attitude best suits you and afterward be CE in dialogue with other characters. I hate to say it but a lot of “evil party” films have CE enforcers as a right hand man to a more LE head figure. They’re kept in check by loyalty, fear, admiration, and probably some kind of deep psychological need to avoid the burden of real leadership.
3:10 to Yuma
Pirates of the Caribbean (basically the entire supporting cast is CE while heroes are LE or CG/CN
The Gospel (Peter is literally just looking for any reason to cut somebody)

>>96883231
D&D is a retard simulator.

>>96888795
Evil gives him all the mobility he needs.

>>96867544
Extremely low IQ protagonist has access to powers akin to Killer Queen: Bites the Dust (she kills people and time reverses but the victim stays dead) and uses it to systematically murder anyone in the way to her marrying a handsome prince (she hasn't really got any talents besides being pretty and murdering people so she has a lot to get through). Some of her victims deserve it but many are totally innocent and she's no reservations about bumping off children either.

>>96885203
This is usually confirmed by serial killers themselves. Most of them say they did it because they wanted to and knew they could get away with it. That, IMO, should be guiding principle of Chaotic alignment in general, whether good or evil.

It follows then that evil requires a clear objective morality that the evilness of actions can be measured against. Slavery is objectively immoral to common sensibilites, yet is practiced today by people fully knowing it's evil. This makes them evil, but they would argue that they're no worse than any criminal and boohoo they do it because they must or whatever bs they come up with in order to get away from it. Such people can understand evil as a concept and the reprecussions their actions might entail if found out, but they do not see themselves evil and usually base their own actions on their own subjective criteria.

Modern DnD of course veers way from such objective moral measuring sticks, but if there is an established precedent that the players find evil within the game, use that and do it whenever you can get away from it.

In summary, do what you want if you can get away from it and lie your ass off any time you're confronted about it, then keep doing it anyway.

>>96890119
People playing D&D don't have to make characters who are like you.

>>96890720
Title?

>>96891471
It's in the post.

>>96852051
Oh, hey, I forgot I even made this post until now.

>>96852121
Not really. He only has one rule: "I'm strongest so I'm in charge". He doesn't respect or create order or structure, he doles out favor and misfortune as the mood strikes him.

He's reasonably intelligent and inclined to be polite, but that doesn't make him Lawful. The only difference between him and an orc is his speech patterns.

>>96850496 (OP)
>petty and stupid?
But I am both of those things.

>>96890971
I agree, pretty much.
The issues that come into play, here, in this hobby, is that people want concepts like this reduced to abundantly clear binaries. Let's be real: If our own priests, philosophers, sages and mathematicians haven't figured out objective morality yet, there probably isn't any.
But the gamified nature of D&D morality makes people want to reach for objective answers to these bizarre and complicated questions. Not for any higher purpose, but just so they can have objective rules for their make-believe.
It's a task that can't be succeeded, so we're cursed to have these retarded arguments forever. Does how a serial killer see themselves matter, for example? If they're a schizo and they think they're saving souls from the devil, who's to say? Me, or them, or who?
God?
These questions just come down to God's will, at the end of the day. And I mean that in the poetic sense. Who's to say except some higher authority I can't ask questions of?
It rises to the level of the spiritual, and those affairs are firmly outside of our reach. Morality systems were a fad that can honestly be left to the past. I'm okay with them being part of the cosmology of course, I just think it's obvious that you can't apply such objective morals to normal human beings. Very few people are outliers, like murderers or saints. And it's such a muddy question.

>>96870826
Then I hope you're ready to get the thumb for talking dumb you saurian simpleton.

>>96888795
>big dudes in armor can't move
??????
By moving anon, he is literally mutated by dark magic

>>96895798
Explain to me how this dude can lift his arms, let alone walk.

>>96850496 (OP)
>How do you play X without being X?
Top quality bread

>>96857109
Old King was the real hero all along.

I've seen arguments for "I'll follow the law only so long as I feel like it" as a hallmark of both Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil. Which is it? Or alternatively, where's the difference in how that sentence applies to each alignment?

>>96900424
Neutral evil usually has rules about when they'll follow the law, such as committing crimes only when it'd explicitly fuck someone they hate over or committing tax fraud because they hate the tax collector, whereas chaotic evil is a lot more short sighted and spur of the moment. That doesn't mean every CE character is retarded, but on average they tend to take more risks than NE, at least in games I've played. They aren't always murder hobos but all murder hobos are by definition CE

>>96864519
This is ridiculous. Critical thinking skills do not have a law-abiding bias.

>>96900424
Killing someone for your purposes is neutral. Killing someone as your purpose is evil. Breaking laws for your purposes is neutral. Breaking laws as your purpose is chaotic.

In other words, the existence of laws being circumstantial to one's goals is simply order-neutral. A chaotic character would find the existence of law fundamentally disgusting.

>>96893974
It's actually pretty straight forward. Alignment is intent-based, but nobody honors that because intent-based alignment leaves open the door for players to use plot devices to give themselves licenses to kill. A paladin suffering from a werewolf curse is not evil aligned precisely because you can just cure the curse. Meanwhile, you cannot cure a demon who has murderousness as part of their basic physical constitution.

>>96850496 (OP)
Just play a character. It isn't your job to figure out what their alignment is. You will just end up in what the DM's interpretation of what alignments they think you are acting like over the course of the campaign, anyway. So why worry about it?

>>96850496 (OP)
You don't.

alignment should've stayed one dimensional, the 3x3 is a retarded zodiac sign tier personality test that adds nothing to the game. no matter how its interpreted, nu-lawful and nu-chaotic are always made up as personality traits rather than any indicator of moral compass. Scratch another tally onto why DND is dogshit.

>>96902800
Skill issue. :^)

>>96902800
The two axis system isn't that bad, but people treating alignment as a personality is definitely a huge problem. Alignment should be descriptive of one's wants and goals and not much else.

Simple You make them intelligent.

The Melnibonean empire was around for thousands of years, and Elric and Yyrkoon stand as symbols of the society's darkest point.
Chaos doesn't fully mean randomness, it's more tied to being Free.
In this instance free to be evil. The Chaotically Evil does evil as a baseline.
You can show that as being cartoonish, but its up to you to present it that way
Then again if you want to do some shit like titan comics Yyrkoon and blind a slave then drink the blood for fun, go for it.

>>96850496 (OP)

SOMEONE LEFT THE ORPHANAGE UNGUARDED...

BIG MISTAKE.

>>96861217
But how to make not just an evil character but a CHAOTIC one work with a party? In my head it's always a lone wolf type, I have no ideas how to justify one being with a party.

>>96850496 (OP)
>without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?
Why wouldn't I make my character cartoonishly petty and stupid?

>>96904627
They share a curse that will kill them if they stray too far from each other or something. Or share a common enemy or some other threat. Chaotic evil characters generally want to live too.

Sociopathy.

Shallow affect: he rarely shows deep sadness, guilt, or fear. Emotions are short and surface-level.

Instrumental empathy: he can read what people feel and use that to manipulate, but he doesn’t feel it the same way — he can mimic compassion when it’s useful.

Impulsivity & thrill-seeking: low tolerance for boredom; he takes risks for stimulation.

Poor long-term planning re: relationships: attachments are opportunistic; he may be loyal to a person if it fits his aim.

Callousness + occasional glimmers: not always a total absence of feeling — sometimes a tiny, confusing reaction (a flinch, a look) slips through. That slip can be heartbreaking because it’s so rare.

Self-destructiveness: when stakes get high, he may double down recklessly — a pattern of short-term wins and long-term losses.

Important: don’t portray them as “pure evil.” It’s more often a profile of emotional bluntness, impulsivity, and poor empathy — sometimes paired with trauma, sometimes with temperament/biology. Show causes and consequences instead of moral caricature.

Principles

Show instrumental empathy, not real warmth. Let him be uncannily good at predatory social moves (reading a room), but rarely moved for another’s sake.

Give him cracks: a brief, involuntary reaction to something (a face, a sound, or an old memory) can humanize him without making him “redeemable.” Keep them small and rare.

Portray the cost: show what his style loses him: real friends, a future, stable status. He gets short-term wins but long-term sapping.

Portray boredom and self-destructiveness. He undercuts himself, takes stupid risks, drinks, or avoids institutional rules — not because he’s romantic, but because he needs stimulation or is contemptuous.

Make him frighteningly ordinary at times. Sociopathic violence is often banal and bureaucratic — e.g., cold, efficient clean-ups, or unsettlingly calm conversations before a murder.

>>96904678

Specific subversions

He doesn’t enjoy cruelty for “art.” He might be bored, cruel because he wants to feel something; later he notices absence, not triumph.

Show failed intimacy attempts. He tries to imitate care (a practical favor) and fails badly, revealing his limits.

Show the aftermath on him. After an extreme act he’s hollow, perhaps self-medicating or self-loathing — not because he’s suddenly kind, but because consequences slow him.

Avoid

Turning him into a tragic romantic figure who “just needs love.” Whatever darkness he faced it broke him completely or was born in it. That flattens sociopathy into a swoon plot. Sociopathy is life-long, perhaps treatable, but not curable, although symptoms can diminish over time, particularly after age 40.

Making him a cartoon monster. Reality is worse and more complex.

What's the most kino class for a Chaotic Evil character?

>>96904730
This guy is what a high-level Fighter should be.

>>96904730
Monk, since they can take being a war obsessed psycho and make it into a spiritual path.

>>96904730
Wizard, it gives them a reason to stay with a party (meat shields) and it makes sense to play one either driven batshit by knowledge or power or wanting to smite his enemies despite being weak physically

>>96906899
You can't be a Monk if you have a Chaotic alignment, genius.

>>96850506
>Use your brain OP
FPBP

>>96909709
>being personally unable to RP the demonic path because you're submissive to some old boomer who doesn't know a single thing about eastern philosophy
Your loss.
https://youtu.be/Xy8tFx95t2g?t=189

>>96909941
Mad ascetics make god tier chaotic characters because they can treat literally anything as a form of worldly attachment. Eating, pain avoidance, laws and ethics, overarching plot lines, supernatural and divine conflicts, all just illusory things to be fucked around with according to one's whims. It's basically the ultimate schizo egoist power fantasy.

>>96910515
You just described the Joker.

>>96904466
And the Paladin can't get there on time. :^)

>>96904730
Fighter, sorcerer, barbarian and wizard would be the classics. I'd prefer barbarian, since it's rarer for a game to deal with Genghis Khan-level of physical savagery as opposed to the trope of the evil wizard.

>>96916024
Wouldn't Genghis be a Warlord? He's known more for his prowess as a war commander and his political skill than his chops as a frontline fighter.

>>96850496 (OP)
Stop crying about how others play, and worry about your own character. Chode

>>96896773
Pauldrons have gaps at the base that allow the biceps and shoulders to lift it when necessary. Thats why you can see dudes in armor rolling their shoulders. Might as well be asking if people wearing big shoulder pads can lift their arms.

From a Fantasy perspective, there is also the fact that flesh and metal melt like wax in the realms of Chaos so its likely that he cant take the armor off because its a part of him, like the exoskeleton of an insect.

>>96916051
>his political skill
"Give me what I want or I will fucking destroy you" and "Give me your daughter to formalize this alliance" isn't exactly 1000000000000 IQ thinking.

>>96917993
It's all in the way you say it.

>>96918079
Also who you say it to.

>>96912876
Or Diogenes. The archetype is fun because you can become very arbitrary about what the character values while not straying that far from how a conventional character in the same class thinks.

>>96918662
And the hat you wear when you say it.

>>96918782
What's Diogenes have to do with anything?

>>96924634
Extremely prominent historical precedent for a chaotic ascetic, who still preserved his identity as an intellectual.

Are there other games that have a character alignment system but it's different from Dungeons and Dragons?

>>96850496 (OP)
easydamus.com/alignmentreal.html

>>96850496 (OP)
What's wrong with being cartoonishly petty and stupid?

>>96850496 (OP)
>How do you play the cartoonishly petty and stupid alignment without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?
I don't know

>>96936398
Don't be sarcastic, anon.
>>96850496 (OP)
I like that one anon that said to keep it a secret. That's probably your best bet in a standard campaign with normal teammates.

>>96907241
Batshit wizards are always fun to play as, especially when you play into the role of being this mad nutjob who cast powerful spells on the most weakest of creatures like the DM's 'cute and silly but also fucking annoying' PC for a example

>>96940191
>Batshit wizards
Is guano wizardry a thing?

>>96940191
I remember one of the first things I did playing a batshit wizard was use 3 magic missiles on a single rat because it dared be in his presence, was a good time.

>>96850496 (OP)
>How do you play Chaotic Evil without making your character cartoonishly petty and stupid?
You don't, that's literally the entire point of the alignment.
Chaotic alignment is for people with no impulse control trying to hide their flaws behind "Holding up freedom as the highest ideal".
Evil is for people who can't even pretend to put a higher ideal above their own self-interest.
Chaotic Evil is thus for the lazy, stupid, morally-bankrupt scum that all races would be better off without. Like demons.

>>96942265
Yeah, this is kind of the point. An evil campaign is only so fun after you torture goblins for half a session.

>>96852121
That's not what any of that means.

>>96850496 (OP)
Evil is pure selfishness in D&D in the moment.
Chaos is eschewing honor, trustworthiness and reliability for freedom and adaptability.
A Chaotic Evil character is ungodly arbitrary but does everything for their own benefit in the moment.

>>96942265
>Chaotic alignment is for people with no impulse control trying to hide their flaws behind "Holding up freedom as the highest ideal".
Modron hands typed this post.

>>96850496 (OP)
Just don’t be annoying. If you kill a random bystander right in front of the rest of the party, don’t act surprised when the paladin decides to smite you on the spot

>>96942495
And like always, the modron was correct.

>>96850496 (OP)
Very simple. Selfishness.
Only your goals, your desires, your happiness, your survival matter.
Anything that stands between you and what you want or need, can be destroyed. No laws or beings are above or even equal to you. You are the center of your universe, and the rest has to follow, or else.

>>96877713
oh I'm sure you're a joy to play with

>>96879639
>Even if they are the worst creatures ever, killing them as babies would be cruelty at the very least.

You are incredibly evil. If a lifeform is a plague, and only spread destruction, killing them, old or young, is just pest control. Do you cry over young mosquitoes or bedbugs ?

In fact, you are one of good definitions of evil. Chaotic evil. Your sense of self importance, pseudo superiority, and the consequences of what you advocate for (while never being subjected to them), is the perfect example of a CE nut job, driven by arrogance. No matter the rest, all that matters to you is to inflate your ego.

>>96859787
I wish I could do that to others

>>96949623
You're the chef in this scenario.