Thread 96857967

Real OP Edition

>Previous Heresy: >>96848341

>HH 3.0 - Complete gofile - All Books:
https://gofile.io/d/cnJk0N

>New Edition, to a great wailing and gnashing of teeth:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/setting/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-the-horus-heresy/
>Thread FAQ (very old, remembers Age of Terra)
https://pastebin.com/iUqNrrA8
https://pastebin.com/8riDmnhS
>30k TACTICA & TIPS
https://pastebin.com/Tm2P4QLp
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Age_of_Darkness-Warhammer_30k/3.0_Tactics/General_Tactics

『Adeptus Titanicus and Legions Imperialis』
>Official FAQ/Errata/Downloads
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/legions-imperialis/
>List of Titan Legions with Badges and Colours
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17Jccq0V--SwJifLVLwbisYnQeqLlS2pMSiPbGXp1Brs/htmlview
>More lists
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Titan_Legions
>What size magnets do I need?
5x1mm
>Tactics
https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Adeptus_Titanicus/Tactics

>Thread question:
What's left for them to preview next week?

>>96857967 (OP)
Ligma? Probably another mini book with another 3 pages of rules.

I have painted too much heresy recently so I will paint guys for something else instead.

Are you satisfied with your legion trait rules? What would you change?

>>96858035
I think the legion for my dudes , in combination with legion specific units rules, make it for an expiriance where you either only use stock unit with a storm seer being the WS element in it. Or you try to use WS units and you are having a very bad day. And that is before thinking how much all speeders, jetbikes from FW cost you .

>>96857967 (OP)
>tq
Plastic Fire Raptor

>>96858035
Yes. IH rules essentially haven't changed since 1.0 (they just lost the forced weakness like everyone else did). It's a strong effect you will feel every game. It clearly indicates the strength of the legion and also telegraphs a weakness. It's not too oppressive (MotA from 2.0 aside since that was just comped out of the game), the rule isn't complicated. It just works.

>>96858035
I'm pretty happy with UM
Even if their rule is weaker, +1 free reaction seems a lot more fitting for the strategy autists than just +1 to hit on everything just bc something else shot at it first.
Their reaction is also brutal and I don't have to feel bad anymore taking suzerains because they are no longer just objectively better terminators for the same points
I guess I'd change some of the special units rules bc there's still absolutely no point to praetorian breachers, locutarus are also kinda pointless now that generic jumpack vets are a thing and fulmentarus still suck. At least give them D2 missiles...

>>96857967 (OP)
>tq
I guess the new cataphractii and maybe release date for Breachers

>>96858035
>Are you satisfied with your legion trait rules?
Yea, NL have a really cool one.

>What would you change?
Realistically? Nothing, its a well designed rule. If I was allowed to just change things? +1 to hit when shooting at a target with status effects. Just cuz.

>>96858244
I know that people use legion cataphracts a lot, but do people use breachers? Regular or Legion specific? They seem to be a bit like very expensive tacticals with weaker line.

>>96858035
I just want an FAQ so all the arguing about Alone and Forgotten ends.

>>96856233

I do like how Movie Marines that Oath can get. An allied detachment of one sarge (paragon of battle centurion), one vox operator (MoS), their rhino (Damocles) and four regular guys (Cents with assorted gear) works perfectly well, although the rhino is a bit redundant.

>>96858035

Death Guard is surprisingly in-depth, I'm enjoying it. It is a bit odd that it makes them the best at transport-mounted infantry or drop pod assault, I admit, but the multimelta squad in LR Explorator is a fun unit and actually does quite meaningful damage to AV14.

>>96858035
Blackshields getting +1T and S for pinned/stunned/suppressed seems pretty good considering how relevant those effects are. +2T/S for multiple effects is also good.

>>96858035
At first I was dissatisfied with how seemingly subpar the word bearers trait was, but after a few games with its actually come up a surprising amount, especially since I like using Despoilers in Rhinos to force small tactical squads off objectives or to capitalize on bigger squads getting run off by the gal vorbak

>The /hhg/ posters could not be like that. They were the primal forces of the universe. They were built to doompost and doompost again, never ceasing, for in hopeposting there was ruin. It was their bitterness that made them based, not their gratitude. And that is why they are still admired, loved, adored, even now when the embers of the edition GW torched are still cooling. And that is why those of them who still live will never change - they will do just what they always did, recklessly, impulsively, until they either destroy themselves or take the Warhammer 40,000: The Age of Darkness; The Horus Heresy down with them. And praise the Powers for that - I could never have posted with one of them if they had been as cringe and reddit-brained as you.
What did Chris Wraight mean by this?

>>96858035
Gotta go fast, can go fast

>>96858371
That I am 45 and have been shit posting on BBS, and I still do it now. And will probably do it till I die. Never playing, never painting. Just buying and shit posting.

Plastic tarantulas are a gift even though the new design is kinda bleh.

>>96858293
Idk about regular but veteran breachers seem fun
The normal ones are harder to put a status effect on and the Sgt can have meltaboms. Lascutters are cool too.

>>96857967 (OP)

>What's left for them to preview next week?


Plastic Armigers/Moirax for LI.

>>96857967 (OP)

Also when you make the new thread put the following in it under the AT&LI section

>Legions Imperialis Army Builder
https://legionbuilder.app/

Do mk2 use ball joints for arms? I want to use chaos knight and skull crusher arms to give them shields/ different weapons

>>96858475
Plastic warlord weapons
plastic armigers/moriax
new rapier titan
new nightgaunt warlord
AT revival NOW

>>96858489
No

>>96858475
We're gonna get another big plastic tank and then a bunch of LI stuff

>>96857967 (OP)
We know we got plastic custards inbound at some unspecified point as well as 30k skittles, they could very well do either.

>>96857967 (OP)
>What's left for them to preview next week?
Curse of knight heads returns

Scouring leaks were cool, but the setting just doesn't do it for me like the apex of the heresy did. From here its just connecting all the dots to 40k and I could care less about that desu

>>96858561
Please no, that's too cruel

Brothers of Perfection, sound off!

>>96858570
All will perish.

>>96858035
There has to be one so might as well be me.
I play DA. I don't like our trait.
I'd make it +1 ld and/or cool and be done with it. Something that can come up from time to time.

>>96858561
>30K isnt showing enough growth
>divert production to making 6 more bloodbowl teams, Cathay wave 3 and 2 new undead factions for AoS!

>>96858433
uh based?

>>96858602
GW continues to shoot itself in the foot by keeping all of its games in internal competition rather than have stuff you can share across them

>>96858628

Yup, it's exactly the kind of system a psychotic CEO who wants to keep his departments feuding to maintain his own power would encourage. Sears did the same thing and look at what happened to that.

knight heads... for ligma
an entirely untapped market

>>96858594
It hasn't come up at all in any of my games yet. This might be an oversight by GW not realising it doesn't affect the Ld. check for losing combat. If it did it would actually be a situationally strong trait, because being able to roll a 6 and disengage regardless of how badly you lost combat would be really useful.
Don't mind the current DA trait too much personally, as it has allowed me to prove to local players that you indeed don't even need a legion trait to win games.

>>96858499
aw, do you think it would be difficult to attempt tho?

>>96858347
Yeah, the trait is super useful even if it isn’t exactly strong. Helps that everything else the legion gets is super impactful. Ashen circle are frankly ridiculous. The legion just needs some points drops and a rewrite of the praetor upgrade and they’re a solid A tier

>>96858710
1. Are they the right scale? Are they going to look massive or weedy?
2. just flatten the ball

>>96858673
I'd buy ligma sized versions of the resin heads.

>>96857967 (OP)
Let’s just talk about what we really want to hear. What do you feel are the biggest misconceptions about 3.0 so far.

Piggybacking off the last thread, vanguard have been super impactful in my games even if it’s nowhere as consistent as line. It feels like too many people look at the subpar assaults or despoilers and write off all the other vanguards from that

>>96858587
>>96858673
Already done

>>96858750
Got a number of them:
>Misconception: melee being bad.
>With the higher mobility, set up moves denying reactions, and higher minimum guaranteed charge distance, the latest I've seen melee units reach close combat is turn two.

>Misconception: plasma weapons being bad.
>Especially the blast plasma weapons are down right scary. My castraferrum dread with two gravis plasma cannons has been terrorising the local scene, even plasma cannon HSS are a serious threat.

>Misconception: land raiders and spartans being the best shooting tanks.
>Have seen them struggle to kill a single predator or vindicator tank in several games, and fail to kill enough terminators to cause a routed check. Every time somebody has their land raiders and spartans hang back to shoot instead of rush forward to deliver their cargo, they basically handed their opponent an easy win.

>Misconception: tactical spam being good.
>No amount of tactical marines is gonna shift a terminator squad or other elite unit blocking them from getting to the objective. Shooting phase also happens after the movement phase, so even if something else shoots the blocking unit the tactical marines can't reach the point before the opponent gets a turn to clap back.

And a personal misconception: thought magna-melta predators would be terrible now that they are only 1 shot. But after having to play them to get to the agreed points limit, they've proven to be quite decent actually. Only need to be lucky once to one-bang even a land raider, and with 12" movement and melta range their threat range is substantial. Even outside of melta range the 4 dmg plus lascannon sponsons is usually enough to remove a Rhino in one shooting phase.

>>96858750
If you use all your reactions to move tac squads off objectives you will get raped in later phases
If you save all your reactions to smokescreen against AT then your non-tanks will get raped during the shooting phase

>>96858884
> takes one of the few good plasma options
> this means plasma is actually good

>>96858948
>One plasma weapon bad
>This means all plasma bad
Two can play at that game. And haven't had a chance to test out a plasmagun TSS yet, will definitely do after how many units turned out actually useful despite /hhg/ claims to the contrary.

>>96858948
Weve done the maths, plasma TSS are just peachy. Plasma outriders are also fine.

Its less "one good plasma unit" as much as "one bad one" (saturnines).

>>96858492
AT REVIVAL NOW

>>96858654
You act like the departments have any control over the CEO, who is picked by and serves at the discretion of the Board of Directors

>>96859002
>>96859035

4/12 plasma weapons have breaching 4+ and those are the ones that most people are taking. Not really a stretch to call the category bad when people are ignoring 2/3rds of the options imo

>EC got shafted from the HH following Angel Exterminatus
>EC got shafted almost entirely from the SoT
>EC in the process of getting shafted from the Scouring
Note that this isn't the hot, fun sort of shafting.

>>96858577
Awoo

>>96859190
Aruuu

>>96858035
DA going from "every unit you take gets one of 6 possible little buffs" to "status test slop rule so badly written I've never had be relevant in the five games I've played" is so terribly bad. I hate it so much.

Dark Angels are basically "Terranic Greatsword" the legion now.

>>96859212
> Reeeeeeee my rules are shit now!
I thought Loyalty was it's own Reward

>>96859212
>"every unit you take gets one of 6 possible little buffs"
So you know this was bad right? If you can't see how this was also a problem then there's no point in continuing to post further because you're part of the problem

>>96859212
They hate you because you tell the truth.

>>96859212
>Terranic
more like TYRANNIC amirite?

>>96857967 (OP)
>TQ
The new female custodes character

>>96859212
Come on now, the 2.0 DA trait was problematic, even DA players acknowledged that. Don't be like those salty 1.0 TS players who are still seething over no longer having one of the most broken OP armies you faggot.

>>96858035
>RG
It's fine I guess. I much rather have mass infiltrate. It has the same issue in 40k where it truly only benefits shooty units. Our good melee is likely to close to the center to benefit in most scenarios. When you tech into it then it becomes really toxic really fast.
>TS
Yes, no notes

Are there any exceptionally rad blackshield titan legios?

How would you best run Destroyers on foot (or in a Rhino)?

>>96859456
But their rules are horrible. Interaction with fear, where outside of one legion practicaly nothing has fear, and they aren't even immune to it or can ingore it, but they downgrade a version of it that is on like 4-5 models in the game. There is bad, there is uninspiring and there is DA which may as well not exist.

And I would get it if this was somehow balanced by something like powerful legion units or powerful legion weapons. But their stuff is mostly side grades or plasma , which GW hates this edition.
Armies can be something in between my legion has the most powerful OP rules and my legion is dog shit.

And am not even a DA player. I play WS, or rather played, now I just wait for fixes.

How would you explain list building, and specifically equipment choices, to zoomers that have not encountered it before (only familiar with nu 40k)?

>>96859521
I run two units. Pack and in a rhino. 2 missiles and phosphex each. Foot gets hammer and two serpents pairs to match points with the jump ones.

>>96859486
I made my own custom legion that is effectively blackshield. Worked with the ordo reductor and have no heraldry of their own. I painted up a few at Titanicus release and don't know if it's cringe or not.

>>96858561

Those were rotten days.

>>96859542
I would tell them to read the rulebook

>>96859486
Xestobiax is technically blackshield.

>>96859486
Legio Lysandre is one of like 2 canon blackshield legions. The other is the traitor half of Venator who are lame and got rekt.

>>96859648
There's a balance to strike between upgrading units and having more units.
I was wondering what a good way to explain it would be.

>>96859166
People being stupid isnt a problem with the weapons. Yea, plasma guns breach worse now, they still do more damage (on average) than they did before. The power of firing 2 shots all the time!

>>96859743
Understanding that normally takes practice but also relies heavily on taste and what the player wants to use.
If you must explain it succintly then say that the standard army roster only allows basic troops and any othet flavor of unit depends on how many consuls and centurions you use.

>>96859743
There is no "hard rule" to that, if there was a concrete answer people wouldnt have divergent llists.

Just explain that there is a balance to be found, and that the balance varies based on what you want your army to do, what you expect to face and what missions you think you might be playing.

>>96859533
I hope you get nothing and some fringe rules change makes your army even more unplayable so you can fuck off already

>>96859212
DA getting a generically useful but very minor legion trait (in line with their shared legion character) but having it supplemented by powerful options elsewhere is fine.

>>96859798
>>96859870
So "focus on decking out the one or two units that know you want to run, play the game to figure out the rest"? "it's a game of experience" is probably not going to go down well especially since we're on a timed cycle on editions

>>96859212
Was the DA trait where they hit on 3+ with swords at equal WS bad?

>>96859308
>"oh man, your ravenwing vehicles or jetbikes moves an extra two inches, or maybe your normal bolters get plus 1 to hit, or maybe you get slightly more tanky against incoming plasma people barely brough"

What a dishonest hack, Deathwing was the only flat out "good" one and it was just "you hit better when using swords" which was their 1st edition gimmick that was bad. Fucking no game shiter.

>>96859456
>One of the most balanced legions, regularly a B tier legion by all discussions was totally problematic.

actual bait by no game shitters

The issue with Dark Angels ALWAYS was their special units which were pushed, not their core rules, anyone saying otherwise literally didn't play the fucking game.

>>96855384

I remember really appreciating your snake magos ages ago at the tail end of 1e, very nice to see that army's still about. Shame you can't stick jetpacks on magi anymore or Outflank characters with Vorax, I would like to make a team of horrible flying insect-men arcuitors.

Is allowing multiple units to deepstrike in this edition at the same time something that would cause it to break? And I have another question does allowing armies to deepstrike turn 1 cause a lot of fuckery?

>>96860001
>generically useful
Literally useless, you have to imagine scenarios where it matters.

> but having it supplemented by powerful options elsewhere

You mean the 2 single good legion units they have, Exindo and Deathwing Companions, and only because they are eternal warrior 1 and can have terranic greatswords... wow... so cool.

Inner Circle are overpriced to shit and lack vanguard, the plasma flamers got nerfed to complete shit and with how set up moves work can be charged before they can even try to overwatch...

Plasma repeaters make any unit you upgrade way too expensive.

The legion is now 2 special units, good job.

>>96860027
>So "focus on decking out the one or two units that know you want to run, play the game to figure out the rest"?
Sure? Its okay advice for getting people to play the game.

>experience doesent work
Sure it does, because its the same with 40k. Do you invest in a lot of shitty cheap units or a few elite expensive units? Tall vs wide is just a general gameplay paradigm.

>>96860226
>you have to imagine scenarios where it matters.
"losing combat by like 4"
Wowiee so hard.

>Inner Circle are overpriced
They arent. Theyre entirely in line with other units of their kind + have their special rules stapled on top.
>no vanguard
And? Theyre a cata command squad.

>You mean the 2 single good legion units they have,
You have six special detachments (vs the usual one) and of them five (so not ironwing) are very powerful.

Is 1 Lightning Claw on Assault Squad sergeant worth it or should I go for double LC? I have one from the older Mk3 box but it's only left-handed and I'm wondering if I can get by with just one + pistol

>>96860205
>Is allowing multiple units to deepstrike in this edition at the same time something that would cause it to break?
Yes, because deep strike does not scatter (and reactions like intercept were gutted) mass DS would be overly strong.

>turn 1 DS
No, thats fine. The MoD can already do that. Its basically super-infiltrate now.

>>96860277
What about deepstriking multiple units at once turn one but everything can scatter? OP or fair? Also how was intercept nerfed?

>>96860298
>Also how was intercept nerfed?
Used to be if you had an augury scanner and someone deep struck, you got a free intercept on them. Now you dont. Intercepting also didnt prevent a unit making further reactions.

>mass DS but everything scatters
So old DS? Im sure theres some way to balance it.
But heres the issue:
Last edition small scale DS was useless because of interception, but mass DS was still fine and indeed what the interceptor reactions were there to help against because otherwise it could be oppressive.
Bringing back old dynamics just brings back old issues.

What I would consider is maybe something like "chain DS". You can have multiple units drop in BUT the initial unit scatters and then all subsequent units have to be placed within 12" of the original unit (or something). So you can still have large scale forces DS in, but it wont let you just go everywhere all at once.

>>96860227
thanks.
>>experience doesent work
i said "game of experience" (ie, i do not look forward to telling people they need more experience) feels like a cop out answer sometimes.

>>96860372
Would intercept being at snap shots but more easily available be okay? Also I like your idea for mass deepstrike. Kind of like old rite of wars for pods and termites.

>>96860444
It does, but its genuinely the only real answer that works. Same for 40k, there is no hard rule of "you need X units, Y elites, Z chaff and then exactly four characters". Its something that comes with experience and getting the feel of the game, art not science.

>>96860255
NTA, but why the hate towards the DA ?
Because I'd agree with the fact their trait is probably the worse and on a side note, I'm yet to be convinced that their detachements makes up for it.
They have companions that look I think too good for their price, but that's about it if I was to be completely honest.

>>96860461
>Would intercept being at snap shots but more easily available be okay?
Here is the issue the way I see it, and its not got anything to do with "how potent any given interception is".

If you can mass intercept work- put enough shots at DS to threaten mass deep strike assaults - then you end up making limited deep strike a liability (since it would just explode instead of saturating the targets/withstanding the reaction allowance).
Its hard to have something scale to both individual units AND large scale unit formations.


Maybe "a unit can only be intercepted once"? But im spittingballing here.

>>96860255
>Theyre entirely in line with other units of their kind

Ok you flat out dont play the game, good to know.

>Theyre a cata command squad
No, that's the specifically designed Cata Deathwing Companions squad dumbass.

>>96860274
Double LC is better

>>96860512
I see what you’re saying. Anything that would threaten mass DS would have to be managed differently for smaller DS blobs as far as intercept is concerned

>>96860504
DA can take elites and retinue's with their deathwing detachment without having to take a High Command choice. I have been abusing this by not taking a High Command, meaning my opponent's can't score Slay the Warlord and are always down a secondary objective.

Also breaching 5+ flamers are fucking busted now that you use the template during snap shots, rather than doing D3 auto-hits. Inner circle knights can fire their plasma flamers up to 3 times in one turn when they charge, and that is in addition to their close combat attacks.
Interemptors need little explanation, spamming Str 6 flamers already annihilates infantry through the sheer number of saves they force even without the breaching 5+

>>96860533
>Ok you flat out dont play the game, good to know.
>cost like cata command squads (their closest and most common equivalent)
>perform as well into terminators as they ever did
>"no theyre not in line with other terminators!"
lmao

>No, that's the specifically designed Cata Deathwing Companions squad dumbass.
No you retard, those have different numbers restrictions and have eternal warrior. While cenobium are "just" ws5 cata terminators (with their special rule).

>>96860533
>Whining about Vanguard being useless
>Whining about a unit not having Vanguard

The duality of /hhg/

>>96860255
you can spot a total retard instantly if they try to tard-shill the joke dark angels in 3E. It's not like a subtle thing, they're a steaming turd of a faction not in the ballpark of real ones anymore.

DA trait is very far the worst. Since you're retarded and don't know how it works - It literally does nothing when you're losing in melee. Casualties are a modifier to a combat resolution roll, not to the dark angels leadership characteristic, so DA actually have zero protection from running out of melee.

No prime trait in the game comes close to the strength of legion traits which DA is missing. Offered +1 attack on one model or +10-20 attacks by being WE not DA? WE is literally always more useful. Entire unit striking first as EC or +1 attack on one character for being DA? EC is always better. Salamanders getting +1 attack on characters like DA because their weapons are forgecrafted? Oh, they also only get wounded by thunderhammers and lascannons on 3+ and don't get panic'd by flames. Incredibly better than DA. Entire 10-20man NL unit strikes first and hits you on 3+ and you hit them on 5+ with the survivors because your unit had any status on it? Monumentally shits on every prime trait. WS giving practically your whole army 3" extra movement because it doubledips setups? Mind-blowingly better than any prime trait. 10+ dudes in each unit getting +1 strength from blood angels? Prime traits are dogshit in comparison.

The detachments DA gets do fucking nothing. A slot to buy a 3rd rapier battery instead of 2? Well you still have to spend the 195 extra points and a prime does nothing for rapiers. Meanwhile DG rapier batteries each instantly do +50% more damage than dark angel ones by staying damage 3 while moving into sight of the enemy, and unlike DA for Zero points.

DA don't actually have good equipment. Terranics are simply inferior to hammers. Meanwhile, Salamanders, NL, SW and IW weapons are stronger than TH in addition to not lacking a legion trait.

>>96860566
screenshotting your own post is retarded, anon

>>96860567
>Meanwhile DG rapier batteries each instantly do +50% more damage than dark angel
lmfao
Yea man, that 4" move really enables JSJ. Absolute sped.

>>96860581
That isn't my post.

>>96860567
>DA trait is very far the worst
Yea, no shit, its why they get the best detachments.

>>96860274
single LC are never worth buying. A pair of lightning claws is actually worth only +10 points if you read units that can buy them, so it's a total scam that single LC also cost +10 points for 2 attacks instead of 4 attacks of some assault guy with a pair of them.

>>96860274
make him a shitty slap together lightning claw for the other arm by gluing some extra combat knifes to his hand and painting them like the lightning claw. get fancy if you want and put some cables attached to the knives.

>>96860567
>Well you still have to spend the 195 extra points and a prime does nothing for rapiers
What you DONT have to do is buy another command slot to get an extra detachment. The ability to spam the most powerful units - and save on the command tax - is where the power comes from.

>>96860583
4 inches is a hell of a lot more than the 0 inche anyone retarded enough to play dark angels is stuck with which means tanks can literally always park out of sight of DA rapiers and force them to take the -50% damage penalty every single turn.

As you've never even played 3E I'll try to help you out - vision was changed so if you see a single model you can hit the entire unit, this means it's zero decrease in damage if you step 4" sideways around a building and can only see 1 enemy model (unlike in 2nd where your rapiers would only kill that single visible enemy)

I know it might be hard trying to imagine positioning to move around a corner and get vision without 20 inches of movement for someone as mentally handicapped as you are, but it's a skill you could develop if you work at it.

>>96860652
>4 inches is a hell of a lot more than the 0 inch

Dicklet detected. 4 inches is still nothing no matter how hard you cope.

Anyone have a link to the Ashes of the Imperium leak?

>>96860642
the problem with your incorrect argument is that by being dark angels your units are automatically inferior to non-DA units which can have both superior weapons + line/vanguard DA lack + a legion trait, putting them 3 steps ahead of dark angels.

>>96858035
I've played 9 games with my Dark Angels and the trait hasn't come into play a single time

>>96860642
>The ability to spam the most powerful units
What most powerful units? Deathwing Companions are cool, but other legions do all those other units so much better because they actually have rules that support them?

>>96859888
anon I don't know what GW would have to do, bar removing jetbikes and speeders from the game to make my army more unplayable , then it is now.

Did the negative traits for legions in 1.0 create feel bad situations for players? How did this affect army building?

>>96860372
Maybe let not just units, but detachments with attached characters that unlocked it to deep strike? Of course all those units would need to have deep strike as a rule or all come in pods.

>>96860873
feel your pain choggo. miss the feel of the space wind when I ride my space hog

>>96860900
it affected GW by people not buying stuff. So they created an edition with 3.0 that doesn't really entice you to build a terminator or bike army. Instead you need to have everything.

Good for armies and builds whose theme is "everything". Not so good for those that aren't that.

>>96860901
Flavor wise and rules wise I don’t see the problem with this at all.

>>96860920
I just feel bad for players that have cool themed armies that are rendered obsolete because of rules. If someone shows up to a game for 3.0 with a drop pod army….im gonna let him deep strike everything turn one as in old rules and we go from there.

>>96860917
It is okey. I was angry for a few months, now am in a "it is what it is" phase. Invested too much to leave, at the same time building a new army would take me 3 years. So I would potentialy be fucked for 4th, while not being able to play in 3ed.
Sometimes I think that people are just happy then other people armies are gone or became unfun. It is like they like the fact that other people are not having fun. I kind of a get it, but when I was starting I was being told that it isn't what the hobby is about. And that it is only seen in dreaded eastern europe.

>>96860957
My heart bleeds for those poor fury of the ancients players out there.

>>96860921
Considering stupid me came to this idea, and GW GW came to the conclusion that maybe a single dread detachment is a bit much of a nerf, I am suprise they didn't print out some sort of "rapid ingres" detachment that requires a terminator or jump pack HQ to unlock.

>>96860668
This thread doesn't even have actual scans of the core material, just dogshit blown out and crooked ones. I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

>>96860966
exact same boat. sucks to lose the edition lottery. desu I'm not even that hot on 3.0. this might be the first edition I totally skip and just work on things that are cool (because it'll change in 2.5 years anyway)

>>96860969
My friend had an army like that 2 leviathans, 5 contemptors for shoting, 5 for melee some techmarines . But he can at least still play his army, he just has to upgrade his techmarines. Our other friend who build and imperial fist tank company just can not play his army. He has 0 infantry of any kind, including characters. And funny thing out of all of us, he was the most hyped, because of the new super heavy tank. Now I am not even sure if he ordered it.

>>96860567
>DA actually have zero protection from running out of melee

>The Check uses the majority Leadership of the Unit under that Player's control in the Combat.
>the difference between the Combat Resolution Points totals of the winning Player and the losing Player is applied as a negative modifier to the result of this Leadership Check

>Models with this Special Rule may never have their Leadership Characteristic modified to less than 6.

the highest chance of a DA unit running after losing a Combat is 58%

the highest chance of any other unit running after losing a combat is 97%

a unit with Ld2 after losing a combat is 93% more likely to run away than a DA unit on Ld6

>>96860969
Can’t they technically bring the full list of dreads? Just max out on officers?

>>96861060
yeah they just spam the detachment with 3 dreads. Now they do face the problem of dreads being not that good,aside for the castaferrum that you can't buy anymore lol.

Now in my naive mind I would like to think that "melee" dreads should have ws5 and "shoty" dreads should have BS5, because otherwise the castaferrum is always point for point a better platform. But the realist in me just tells me, that GW is just going to remove castaferrums, as a fix to them being better then other dreads

>>96861135
Actually that’s a great idea. Does that break the game? What about the same for leviathans with two melee weapons? Or two guns? What about BS5 Saturnine dread? Thoughts?

>>96861060
Easily with the Mortificator detachment, 3 give you 9 contemptor slots. A Praetor with 3 Morts, and a centurion or two gives enough dreadnought slots.

Armoured Company needs mechanized infantry to work and will probably stay that way until they do a Tallaran journal.

Bike armies you can still technically run legally, they just can't interact with objectives and will auto lose unless you play kill points with blackshield rules.

>>96861003
Gutting options and flavor was the worst sin of HH3. It lines up with their corporate plan, but I think they completely missed the whiplash players would feel going from "Here is some resin and rules go figure it out" for 13 years to "Here are the armies you're allowed to play. We'll be over here to make sure you don't do anything not allowed"

>>96861043
You're wrong btw

>>96861158
Only thing I worry about is the stuff they do to other games. You build an army, maybe it isn't a very theme specific or the theme is "all comers" and then GW comes and tells you that because they no longer produce Reacons/Seakers and Scouts those unit are out of the game.

>>96861158
How do you make bikes more viable to objective play? Or do we not understand how they should be used?

Post wip models. This one is part of my first command squad

>>96861226
They've already done that with the base Libers and the supplemental stuff they re-added. It's just in 40k it happened over 6 years and 3 editions, but HH they skipped the drip feed and just gutted everything without the tapering off.

>>96861276
Either pic related or using them as melee squads to tie stuff up. Aside from Reapers, I don't really know how they should be used in a way that doesn't make you feel bad for having them instead of something else.

>>96861135
>castaferrum that you can't buy anymore lol.
Recasting is vital to preserving classic models

>>96861367
See I only knew that they did that in AoS and w40k. Well I guess same old stuff. Maybe I will just build models and no longer play. Who knows maybe even learn to paint.

>>96861369
I do not like resin stuff, but that does not equate to you being wrong. I just don't like that whole "spam cheap stuff and play with MSU" way of playing. All GW games somehow end up degenerating in to that.

>>96861369
The venerable kit is available even of it's a bit fancy for 30k. Resin might suck bit single piece dreadnought weapons should be fine.

>>96861367
I wanna see the return of jink type saves as a reaction

>>96861530
That's awful

Are Contemptor and Leviathan heads the same size? What about the Saturnine?

>>96861616
Saturnine is larger for sure.
I dom't thi k leviathan and contemtor are the same but you could probably still exchange them.

>>96858594
the problem is +1 leadership is essentially already the legion trait for iron warriors and anytime wordbearers lose combat, their trait is essentially +1 leadership yet again.
3rd edition's set of legion traits is shitty game design. Most of the good ones were simply ripped from 2nd edition, and the new 3rd edition ones are trash.

>>96861616
Levi heads are bigger

>>96857967 (OP)
>Saturnine Terminators are heavy assault suits designed by Vulkan
>Their heavy weaponry and bulk would imply usefulness for siege warfare, a la Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists
>Being at least partially psychic is a requirement, which would skew toward Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves
>The Legion to get a designated special Saturnine Terminator unit is... the Word Bearers
But why?

>>96861338
3k Worth of BA, also has like 30 old schook mk2 assault marines.

>>96861684
probably as simple as the commy brits at GW corporate saw on a spreadsheet that WB has no terminator squad unlike all 17 other legions so it's only fair for them to be given the new hotness terminator squad first.

>>96861684
In all honesty, I think its super kino to imagine actively mutated Saturnine, possessed marines in their tank armor mutating, cant wait to see the conversions people do.

>>96861728
Which is actually really good reasoning and I thank them for its, it's what I've wanted since 1.0

>>96861338
First day working on the Mhara Gal. I figured I'd get the hardest model out of the way first but outside of some smaller spaces it hasn't seemed too bad. Still a lot of to do.

So I play world eaters, Despoilers are just awful this edition, are there any tricks people have to make them better?

Right now I'm running two ten mans in rhinos with an apothecary and a centurion in one and a blood surgeon and a legion champion in the other. Problem is that unless they are fighting actual chaff, they feel like completely useless chaff.

>>96861780
>unless they are fighting actual chaff, they feel like completely useless chaff.
My brother in Christ they're Despoilers, they're job is to bully scoring units off objectives so they can take it for themselves not to fight with elite melee units or Terminators, you have the rest of your army for that

>>96861649
WB is +1 combat res so it also affects their win threshold, but only works in combat.
IW ignore neg modifiers so a ld buffs would actually make DA better at holding in mele.
Now I'll agree in saying that it's a boring "in between" yet usefull rule, but anything other than that will cause tantrum amongst those people who field tacticals with nothing but Vulkan and kratos (or whatever the meta might be) while calling the first legion BS.
But Loyalty is its own reward and stormwing is based.

>>96861780
I feel that, my despoilers feel trash as well. Are you playing the hereticus or normal? Because you can play regular, then have your blood surgeon still let them lose themselves to the nails for +2 attacks on the charge which helps.

Also with world eaters, because your apothecaries can get gladiator weapons, give them the flesh hook ones, you get 3-4 attacks at initiative 5, if any of them wound the enemy unit is -1 strength for the rest of the game, which is actually pretty good for helping your despoilers survive longer. Your basically using your despoilers as chaff killers and ablative wounds for your heroes, so make sure they are strong as fuck since they will carry your fights.

>>96861541
*pops smoke at u*

played a game as daemons

yeah they fucking suck

>>96861649
>these mass-produced super-soldiers seem undifferentiated!

>>96861817
the problem is half the entire list of traits are no meaningful impact and completely samey.

Hell, some are simply a straight direct downgrade. Scars trait is 1"-3" superior than spacewolves in 100% of situations (1" better if both get 12" from enemy, 3" better if scars gets 12" from enemy and wolves slow movement fails, 2" better if neither can get within 12" of the enemy) due to WS making units setup 1" more as well because it crosses all the thresholds even for heavy terminators.

>>96861868
>surely there's no difference between a World Eater and a Thousand Son, they're both wearing the same suit!
You are legitimately a mental retard.

>>96861852
Jesus christ what a horrifying image, 3.0 has doomed us

>>96861852
I've been crossing my fingers that a journal fixes them, because the daemon rules are some of the worst GW has ever made in 25 years, literally.
And anathemata psyker tree is entirely irrelevant, the worst psychic tree in game and does zero to make daemons any good. Word bearers themselves who had great synergy with daemons in 2nd now have exactly zero. Erebus himself does fucking nothing for daemons - his ability "you can buy a shitty detachment of shitty brutes (and no actual good daemons EVER) without taking an esoterist" isn't even anything whatsoever, it's a bag someone opened and took a steaming turd inside.
Lorgar used to rightfully be able to summon greater daemons after he fully embraced chaos (rightfully, as he was the most powerful demonologist primarch and even frightened Horus after he'd adopted his psychic powers post-istvaan) Now literally no link to daemons at all.

>>96861852
Anon, you played mostly infantry vs fat tanks and nothing but TS self healing saturine suits, what in the actual fuck is that match up? I think most lists would struggle vs that unless you countered it directly..... bloody hell my guy

>>96861900
at least the terrain is painted and there are no clear acrylic ruins

The problem with Dark Angels was that they clearly thought that the extra detachments were going to be such a game changer that they could have a very weak legion rule as a balance, and it turns out that while the detachments are kinda nice, I would use like half of them, they don't make up for just not having anything base. Its a wasted opportunity, because if they wanted Dark Angels to be all about bring the wing detachments, actually make them rewarding for it.

What they SHOULD have done, was make the Hexagrammaton be the extra detatchments and keep the Dark Angel wing buffs, or at least give them special designed prime buffs or what not but tied them to specifically the units in their dedicated detachments and the hero that unlocked them, and make sure the player is still told to model their heroes to match their wing like before.

So you still got +1 on your bolter shots, but only in stormwing detatchment, either for all squads in the stormwing detatchment or for the prime unit, it doesn't really matter to me.

You still got the movement buff for ravenwing, but only on units in that detatchment, if you have a ravenwing hero unlock them.

You would have to adapt some of the wing rules, they dont even need to be really that strong, just more rewarding then a bad leadership modifier that doesn't work correctly, instead we use our detatchments and just get 2-3 extra prime slots with the same prime rules as everything else. Even with them the only ones that really add value are the Deathwing and Ravenwing, because getting prime on those units is intersting.

The only thing that I enjoy in the new Dark Angel rules is the exindo, which can now challenge which I find funny as fuck and is half the cost it was before. I guess Deathwing Companion terminators are bonkers with eternal warrior 1, but your just more boring Inner Circle, but if I bring Inner Circle they are so expensive for a unit without vanguard.

>>96861813
In 1st and 2nd it was fun to play like Orks and while sure, I'm not just picking up terminators, I could still drag them down through 40-80+ weight of dice with my big old hordes of despoilers, but now they just feel so bad.

>>96861821
The barb-hook is actually some really nice tech, I'll try it! Didn't realize I could use the surgeon in the normal rules, that helps a lot!

>>96861908
and WHY THE FUCK is the worst psychic discipline in game +40 points for Word Bearers and only available to High Command not regular Command?! Doesn't make a single fucking shred of sense.
You have to risk stunning or mortally wounding your expensive high commander and set his whole unit to initiative 1 via status, to... help pass a reserve roll for daemons that suck balls to come in (and be unable to charge anything)

Anathemata isn't anywhere near the ballpark of biomantic rage at +20 points giving +2S/+2T. It should've been 10-15 points, not 40.

>>96861852
I heard book 8 malevolence has the best daemon rules

>>96861981
What in your opinion do you think despoilers need?

>>96861910
actually they werent self healing, they were the ones with stoneform reaction which didnt do anything because I had no shooting

>>96862036
The easy answer is giving back the +1 attack for having a pistol and weapon, but thats not happening.

The real answer is the same as second, fix the weapon skill chart back to how it was in 1st edition, where being ws 4 vs ws 5 meant you hit on 4s while they hit on 3s, instead of how it is in 2nd and 3rd where you now hit on 5s while they hit on 3s, that single dynamic is too game warping.

>>96861942
Thats fucking retarded anon.
"you only got the movement buff for ravenwing for the ravenwing detachment"
as opposed to the terminators who would normally benefit?

The advantage of the detachments is that they are better detachments than what everyone else gets, with more access to rare slots (support/elites/retinue) and prime slots than everyone else.

>>96862096
Yeah, and slightly less shitty detachments still feels like shit because its the detachment system.

"Yay, your army benefit is making the same kind of shit as every other dark angel player because the only real benefit to playing them is spamming slightly better detachments" what fun...

>>96862086
I am in agreement that models should get bonus for charging and having additional cc weapons. I think the old WS chart is great or even TOW WS chart. Honestly I don’t understand why people are so vocal about it. Maybe keep 3.0 charge rules to balance it out?

>>96858561
This are so ugly what the fuck
Is that what the "infamous knight heads" talks are about?

>>96862115
If you have a unit of 20 despoilers in first edition, you charge a veteran unit, under the first edition WS chart you got 60 attacks, 30 hits. Under 2nd, you got 60 attacks, 20 hits, you lost 10 dice, and guess what, those elite units you used to be able to kill a couple models of through sheer weight of dice... they are all 2 wounds now, so you need DOUBLE the amount of dice, while getting less hits.

Now your 20 despoilers are only getting 40 attacks, roughly 13 of them hitting, and there are more multi wound or WS 5 units running around.

Its so mathematically bad it turned melee in 2nd edition in "your ws5 or you dont matter", and 3rd made the math so retarded any marine melee unit with WS 4 is an actual waste of points.

The 3.0 charge rules are even worse, because unless they let you get close enough you can set up to avoid volleys, your opponent gets a free overwatch into you, killing your guys before you even swing, further lowering your hits.

Every single change has made using assault squads, despoilers, destroyers, even vanilla terminator squads, anything WS 4 is abysmally bad because the moment they touch a ws5 unit they hit like pathetic noodles.

In 1.0, having a higher weapon skill was a damage boost for your unit, in 2.0 they decided to keep the damage boost and make it a defensive boost as well for no goddamn reason.

>>96861616
Contemptors and levi heads are the same iirc

you know, I always struggle to place tactical support squads into my army

I just never see the use? beyond something like a plasma or melta squad, but then I think they're too weak defensively and it puts me off

>>96862170
its almost like WS5 is a skill check paper, scissors, rock, and throwing basic bitch troops at close combat dedicated vet units will have draw backs, kind of like how it is presented in all the fluff as well. What an unusual thing huh?

>>96859178
It’s disgusting, my legion are beautiful, aryan gods and GW shafts them for dysgenic curs like Perturabo’s hideous, disgusting monsters.

What happened on Terra was an act of love for the populace, it was consensual.

>>96862234
That's not a rock paper scissors, that's just only paper and scissors existing dumb fuck.

Before you had an ability to make up for weaker weapon skill with mass attacks, there was a reason assault squads and despoiler squads could be 20 man, because it gave you the raw amount of attacks to let you cause damage on even terminator units.

So your 10 man assault squads and despoilers could bully other basic units just fine, but get beat up by better veteran units, but veteran units still had to think a bit or coordinate shooting to soften up 20 man bricks before charging in, because it was a shit ton of attacks coming their way. THATS a healthy dynamic, veterans having to watch out because while they won even fights better, they could be outnumbered.

>>96862234
Using his first example wouldn’t that be slightly negated by increasing the wounds of specialist units? Didn’t most units still have only 1 wound?

>>96862320
They did back in 1st, that's part of my point, you have the WS chart get worse AND the elite units doubled in wounds.

>>96862314
That’s how I understood it. Now that I think about it, wouldn’t this incentivize players to take more than the bare minimum strength units I see all the time with posted lists?

>>96862314
why you so mad about despoilers and WS5 anon, are you personally invested? do you not attach beat stick chrs or buffs? or is it that pushing 20man blobs since 1st edition no longer working and you can't or wont adapt out of pure tism spite?

>>96862027
hard to beat 1.0 desu

>>96862344
I’m not the guy that you’re responding to but giving an incentive to bring 20 man blobs in a setting where marines are at their height seems big time fluffy. The elite units still come out on top on average in those fights and now with volleyball fire, depending on what units/fire arms are being used can still be in their favor.

>>96862340
Nah, because the math is so bad, your literally wasting points with 20 man despoilers or assault squads. Like, a 20 man assault squad, slamming into a ws5 squad is putting out like 40 attacks, 10 of which are power weapon attacks (power axe in this case) you end up with 10ish normal hits, 3-4 power weapon hits. Of those you end up with 5 wounds, 3ish power weapon wounds against power armor vets, your killing like 2 of them, against terminators your killing 1 terminator if your lucky.

That's with a 250pt squad, and assuming they get the charge, they all get in to swing, and lose no members to volleys or shooting.

With that level of bad, save the points, bring tactics to sit on objectives and invest in better ws5 units. Its clear that GW just dont play the game with those units while testing.

>>96862344
20 man blobs haven't been good since 1st, that's the whole point dick lips.

And yeah, a world eater player who wants to play assault squads and despoilers WOULD be personally invested.

one of the big misses of this edition is that you're not paying a small unit tax. it should cost more points to bring more squads instead of padding out a unit and making it big. heresy battles are all about big squads duking it out

>>96862421
Thanks for the reply. In my error I meant if people were to port the bonus for charging etc that would incentivize for 20 mans and wouldn’t necessarily hesitate at 60 attacks into ws5 with the old chart. I like some of 3.0 and I think with some changes like we have discussed could make it stand out. Just a thought.

>>96862421
I'm begging you to stop wasting your time here and take all your money to a casino right away

>>96861852
> Unpainted trash everywhere
You also suck

>>96862334
it's a real whammy.
WS chart not fixed
elite units doubled in wounds
artificer armor removed from 3+ troops but elites keep 2+ armor
charge bonus removal means -20 attacks for 20man troops and only -10 attacks for a squad of elites
chainswords massively nerfed (went from reroll all wounds to gimped shred) which hits troops, while elites are just buying thammers or pairs of claws, etc.
bayonets made entirely useless nerfing troop melee but irrelevant to elite squads
spite of the legion removed to nerf melee troops (bolter troops keep heart of the legion and bolters get buffed)
sweeping advance deleted from game, which removes one of the only ways for chainsword troops to actually delete elites or shooty hordes. Now even if you defeat tacticals in melee your chainswords deal tickle damage and the game can end before chainswords kill one squad of bolters.
before skill was rewarded, if a squad broke and ran and you'd positioned things so there was no way for them to run, they'd all be wiped out. And if they hit the edge of battlefield they'd leave. Now even if you herd them all the way to their own edge of the battlefield in a 4 turn long game, they touch it and get a leadership test to suddenly no longer be running.

3E variety is in the toilet because they're ruined melee troops and deepstrike/flanking and cavalry, leaving nothing but elite melee with power weapon gimmicks either in transports or jetpacks. It's pretty much entirely one dimensional and boring now.

>>96862314

This mostly seems to be a Space Marine problem, I'll be honest, I have seen 9 WS4 Ursarax run clean over 10 WS5 power fist vets. It does kind of suck that the holdout power weapons don't have the attritional effects that they did in 1e, I agree there. My headhunters have no real use for their daggers besides tac squad cleanup.

>>96859693
Metallica had some Blackshield-ish elements too who just went their own way when they heard the Heresy happened and couldn't get orders from the Forge. Lysandra never went black shield or traitor at all so I don't know what you are smoking there. Tritonis is based but they got crushed

>>96859575
It's cool if they are well painted and cringe if they are unpainted or look like shit

>>96861813
but anon, everybody bubble wraps their objectives with terminators? to stop the tacticals from getting to them

I had the cool ass idea for a Blackshield herald replacing the aquila heads with bird skulls from the box 'o skulls but it only really works off the resin herald and I'm not putting in a second order to chinaman for just one guy after making a big bulk order.

>>96862941
add more places for bird anon

>>96862825
Come on anon, you can't bubble wrap an objective or you can't easily retreat off of it to deny all vanguard points ever.

>>96863010
I was gonna fucking do this but it didn't make sense for me and now that I have this cool ass idea I want to but I just spent two hundred dollars on crap and I DO want to try and save up for this mortgage.

>>96863080
Sorry you got laid off but HA HA you forgot the picture.

Almost finished with this lot, just need to let the bases dry overnight and apply decals.

amazing how much fast things you paint when you lose your job

>>96863084
CURSE YOU AND YOUR INCREDIBLY INCONVENIENT POSTING SPEED

>>96863096
I'm just that good

>>96860566
>>96860594
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

>>96859408
She's ngubu african thoughever

>>96860668
>>96806610

>>96861135
dreads should never be WS5 actually. WS5 means they're delicate agile things that are hard for WS4 to hit.
If anything dreads should be WS3 but have a special rule "Collateral Blows - due to the size of destruction involved, the model never hits on worse than a 4+ in melee"

They'd be less gimped than current WS4 dreads against elite squadss, but not ruin the already handicapped WS4 despoilers and WS4 terminator squads.

>>96863297
or having dreads be WS5 but have the Red Butchers 'Ravening Madmen' rule (enemies treat you as WS3 during their attacks) to do the same outcome.

>>96860561
>cost like cata command squads (their closest and most common equivalent)
Their closest equivalent is other elite terminators like Justerian you dumb fuck, command squads are an entirely different force org slot, what kinda retard are you?

>perform as well into terminators as they ever did

Who the fuck cares, your not taking them to kill terminators, your taking them, and the 200+point land raider you need to deliver them, to take objectives... oh wait, they fucking suck because they don't have any way to score points!

>No you retard, those have different numbers restrictions and have eternal warrior
They also are LITERALLY a command squad, in the proper role for it dumbass, designed to be one, and also "just" ws5 cata terminators, even have access to the same terranic greatswords.

>>96863335
>Their closest equivalent is other elite terminators like Justerian you dumb fuck
So something most(?) legions dont have, and where they out-perform almost all their competitors in the actual killing? Gotcha.

>b-but no vanguard
And?

>command squads are an entirely different force org slot
Youre right! Command squads have a worse slot, because retinue is less flexible than the elite slots you can use to take cenobium, meaning an army vanguard detachment (if you arent just using your deathwing detachments for them) is better than the retinue one.

>>96863297
The more WS is brought up the more older WS charts should never have changed

Alright I'm getting 3 word bearers contemptors to go with my mortifactor: one double plasma, one with a claw and a chainfist, and missile launcher, and one with a Fist and some gun arm: what should the gun arm be? Currently I'm thinking kheres or volkite just for rule of cool

>>96863527
Volkite

>>96863401
"Spend 5-600 points on a unit that literally cannot score you victory points, dont worry, the other units in its class get the same killing powers AND Vanguard 4-5"

Lol, you dumb idiot, again, its not about killing terminators, its about spending a quarter to a fifth of your entire army on a unit and its transport that cant score you victory points while comparable options can, its a game changing difference.

>because retinue is less flexible than the elite slots you can use to take cenobium

Yes, so stop comparing command squads to a unit like cenobium like a retard, and compare cenobium to what they are

Fun fact, cata retinues SUCK, because guess what? They dont have Vanguard too. Spending 400-600 points on a squad, the hero, and the transport for them, just to score nothing on the mission is retarded in 3rd. Just bring better shooting units or a squad with vanguard.

>>96863545
Good point however the enemy cannot win if you simply delete all his scoring units

>>96863572
You could also do that by killing their scoring units, with vanguard units, thus doing both.

There are way cheaper options then overspending on a terminator unit that is missing the valuable keyword that makes the unit type useable.

>>96861919
Our standards are so low in these days?

>>96863741
3.0 has pages dedicated to explaining who a player is and these strange multi faced polygons called 'dice'. I hear 4.0 will use shapes for range like circles and triangles

>>96863751
Kill Team did that but they went back to using inches because it was retarded

>>96863751
I mean yeah. Have you seen the shit people say in these threads. They had to write it like that lmao

>>96863946
>Haha my friend, you see Bitter Duty only STOPS a unit from being joined, but it doesn't PREVENT a unit with it from joining! So my moritat is allowed to be with whatever squad he pleases
>Why of course my Artificer sergeant will be tanking the 60 boltgun shells flying towards his 20-man squad; I can pick who takes the wounds after all
>Sorry you're upset, but using my sergeant with a boltgun to challenge your primarch and stopping him from nuking the squad for a turn even though he doesn't get a chance to attack is perfectly legal and definitely makes sense
Some of these are fun in a mechanics way but they are very clearly not the intention and are now why we are in the hole we are

>>96858447
>new design is kinda bleh.
It's not even blek, it's horseshit.

>>96861942
I fuck with that sword design. Warhammer has so many shitty power weapons it's nice to see one that works as intended.

>>96857967 (OP)
Does this Knights list look any good?

>Imperial House
>Cerastus Knight Lancer (Lord Scion) - 480 pts
>Cerastus Knight Castigator (Scion Aspirant) - 480 pts
>Cerastus Knight Acheron (Preceptor) - 500 pts
>4x Armiger Moirax w/ 2x Lightning Lock - 175 pts
>4x Lasrifle Section of 20 w/ Auxilia Vexilla, Bayonets and Blast Chargers - 135 pts
>1x Vorax Attack Maniple of 4 w/ Irad-Cleanser - 200 pts
>1x Vultarax Stratos Squadron - 100 pts

I really like the idea of modelling Preceptor, Vorax and Vultarax like a knightly Master of the Hunt with his hounds and falcon

>>96864230
>Sorry you're upset, but using my sergeant with a boltgun to challenge your primarch and stopping him from nuking the squad for a turn even though he doesn't get a chance to attack is perfectly legal and definitely makes sense
That one could have been solved by copying the SoH 'gambit' and just letting units ignore challenges without penalty if the difference in WS is too much.

Maybe not if it's simply higher, but something like 'there's no penalty if the challenger would only hit you on 6s' would have worked.

Until the WAACfags started spamming Shotguns/Concussive to let them knock potential challengers down to WS1 I guess

>>96861852
>Proxying what I presume is a Saturnine Centurion with a literal Centurion
I can't decide if this is cringe or gigabased

>>96864329
he was the standard bearer for a saturnine command squad

>>96864320
You just say 'unmodified WS' and you are fine.

>>96864379
Alright it's just cringe

>>96863297
you are insane. BA contemptors are more mobile then cataphract armoured marines. And custodes contemtpors are told to actualy even faster in reactions then "regular" custodes with no lose of skill, speed and a huge gain in strenght, which considering lore custodes throwin marines terminators one handed means they are litteral demi gods, when they are eternal pilgrims.

Anyway, a WS player shouldn't be the one defending dreadnoughts does and donts

>>96861684
Well exactly, Saturnine already fits smoothly into the doctrines or specialties of those other legions without any adjustments needed. The basic profile already fully represents how those legions would use the suits.
For Word Bearers it was a chance to do something different.

>>96864753
Speed =/= skill. Dreadnoughts are piloted by severely crippled vegetable marines through a less than perfect neural interface. Not to mention the restraints of the dreadnought's weight, construction, joint flexibility, etc. There are combat moves a dreadnought is physically incapable of doing, and "Spreading out arms and engaging spin to win" is not exactly a high skill floor move.
There's also numerous examples in the lore of basic tactical marines running up to a dreadnought and slapping it on the back with a meltabomb, against which the dreadnought can't do anything because it's arms can't reach there. WS 5 dreadnoughts has never made sense, it was a painfully obvious decision made by FW to sell their overpriced resin dreads.

>>96865044
2e Dreads were WS6 BS6. Also, should we also limit terminators to WS4, because their armour is far more cumbersome and heavy, making them unable to fight as well as power armoured marines?

>>96865106
>should we also limit terminators to WS4
I mean that already happens, in the lore only veterans are given terminator armour even before 40k, and veterans in power armour are WS 5 but vanilla terminators are WS 4

>>96865127
Legion specific terminators and characters can go higher, but clearly they need to be reduced to just WS4.

>>96865044
I’m not the anon you’re responding too. I am asking this next question in good faith. What changes would you make to dreadnoughts to match the fluff and also make them worth taking? Would changing the WS chart to the old WS chart help resolve the disagreement here?

>>96865142
Nothing wrong with a few exceptions for exceptional individuals. Even for dreadnoughts special named dreads or super natural ones like the WB mhara gal being WS 5 is fine. But it should be exceptions, not the norm.

>>96865171
From my experience playing 3.0 so far, dreadnoughts are perfectly fine as they are now. People are just upset that their dreads are no longer godlike beings like they were in 2.0

>>96865200
I just wish deredeos kept bs5, they're the gun dread for gods sake

>>96865200
I appreciate your feedback. I am going to try using the old WS chart for a game and see how that plays.

>>96865200
Initial anon here. Perfectly fine, but no one is taking them aside, for the cheap castaferrum and that is being done, only if weapon platforms are being limited localy or the person litteraly doesn't have any sentry guns. And you are definitly not seeing people build or play with armies based around dreadnoughts.

And again I own 0 dreadnoughts, WS hate the idea of them to being with. But if lets say you are right about the WS (what about cataphract WS then, shouldn't it be -1 too ?), what about the the BS. all of the HH era dreads (bar the castaferrum) are said to have extended targeting matrix, the doredeo has (in its lore) and even more extensive one. But they all have BS4. Worse yet the castaferrum, which lore states that it lacks the more spophisticed targetting systems of the more advanced dreadnoughts, has the exact same BS4.
WE dude high on nails is as good of a shot as an dreadnought with multi layered targeting systems.

Did you guys see the rumor about Custodes getting their kits replaced with mixed gender kits?

>>96865523
Random posts in /hhg/ are not real rumours

>>96865511
People don't take dreads because the online consensus is that they are not worth bringing. What they do instead is spam tactical squads, land raiders and spartans, because according to the internet that is the top tier meta list right now - regardless of how often they lose in a row. Most people are just dumb, only parrot what others say, and incapable of learning.

And I have never heard about the castraferrum not having targeting equipment. The models most certainly do have several targeting lenses in multiple locations. And it could take a helical targeting array in older editions, just like the other dreads.

>>96865538
Nah its from a reputable source of rumors thats been leaking a bunch of aos stuff apparently.

>>96865511
Honestly, BS5 dreadnoughts and WS5 depending on configuration with old WS or ToW chart is maybe a better angle. Plus aren’t dreads nerfed already because weapons deal multiple damage now, detachment is harder to get multiple?

>>96865200
from my experience, I've had my deredeo and contemptors one shot by too many kratos and vindis to count

>>96865477
No, they should be the only ones with WS5. Just to fuck with people.

I dont know about dreads as a whole, but hows the gravis melta cannon feeling?

>>96865523
If it’s gonna happen there’s nothing we can do. That being said are they just gonna give them boobplate? Female heads? Those people that request this shit has to be nothing but gooners. It doesn’t make sense any other way

>>96865791
Swingy, but when it hits, it H I T S
Generally not worth it over autocannons, plasma, boltcannons, or a second melee weapon unless you're really hurting for anti tank

>>96865872
Yea, thats kind of what I figured. The massive drop in accuracy (less shots, no rerolls, worse BS) just seems like it makes it super feast or famine.

I know this is Harrdly the time or the place but I have now painted big boy primus

>>96865802
It's just going to be heads, if anything.
Literal boob plate would draw too much attention as sexualizing it

>>96865523
The same people claiming that are saying that the new book has a femstodes that’s described as a gigantess. Aka fucking morons

>>96865893
I don’t think they should have changed the lore for custodes but I have consigned myself to the fact that we are a minority and not enough people have spoken up

>>96865523
I hope its true. There's an insufferable goldfag at my LFGS and he will have a meltdown.

>>96866034
"Speaking up" doesn't do anything. GW only care about if people are buying things or not.

>>96866034
We're not the minority, it is the load obnoxious minority that wants to enforce empty inclusion in everything. The majority of people either don't really care, want meaningful inclusion that isn't just shitting on existing things, or don't want it at all.

>>96866064
>>96866034
>>96865893
>>96865802
The only way you can fight back, is to stop buying their shit, and actively push to help people get a hold of recast models and discourage people from buying GW products.

>>96865523
>Amazon forces GW to include femstodes in the Warhammer show or else they'd drop the contract
>GW relents, makes lore change in custodes codex/liber, does an in house animation, and even updates old models with female heads to soften the blow
>Initial reaction is negative but manageable
>Some dumbfuck social media intern antagonizes the player base, shifting the paradigm toward heavy negativity
>Higherups immediately shit their pants
>Backtrack on femstodes everywhere, hoping to sweep it under the rug
>Delay yet unreleased liber to undo retcons
>Put out half assed legacies PDF to stem the tide
>Scraps already completed moulds to redo them without the heads
Is this the case? Certainly not, but it's funny so I will delude myself into believing it is.

>>96866003
>moving past the damaged giant
uh huh

>>96866034
So many people screamed and cried about it that trench crusade managed to get funded almost entirely on the back of the anti-GW outrage wave. So it was very funny when they night of the long knives the chuds and came out as explicitly woke.

>>96866180
>Amazon forces GW to include femstodes
C'mon, GW does not need a push to do that. It's done out of their own volition.

>>96866234
I do find it ironic that despite being the "silent majority" none of the chuds have actually succeeded to make their own system.

>>96858433
>>96858371
i started trolling gmod servers when I was 9. now 22, and I get on cs and bait people till they teamkill me 3 times and get banned. I will die making someone mad

>>96858567
real untapped market: unification era. closest thing to play that kind of era now is chaos militia army with a psyker (sorcerer) and random techy bits thrown on.
id love to play as techno barbarians

>>96866273
People who like one thing and want the thing they like to stay the same arent particularly likely to originate a new thing.

>>96866234
There's like 6-7 TCfags at my local and when I asked them how they like the game three of them just looked at me confused
Truly an enigma of a system

>>96866288
>Witch cults
>Insane archeotech from the dark age of technology
>techno-barbarians
>Mutants, gene-crafted troops of all shapes and sizes
>Unification wars lasted longer than the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy combined

The Unification Wars really have so much potential.

>>96861003
do you think there'll be a 2.0 only movement? similar to grogs and the 4e general guys?

>>96866180
>le amazon cope

why is it always some form of cope and NEVER GW at fault?
its either "amazon forced it!" or "the rogue intern did it!"
no???? GW and BL authors are woke as hell and they think stuff like that will make more money, so retcons will happen

>>96866306
My experiences with TC fags irl, while not similar also lead me to conclude that it is not a really game.

>>96861003
>Plays tank company
>No techmarines
>No forgelords
This is an entirely self made issue stemming from your friend being brain dead retarded

>>96866354
No, because people don't like playing with brain damaged retards, which are the only people who unironically advocate for 2.0. Go back to 1.0 or stick with 3.0, both have their problems but are far far better than the half baked dogshit of 2.0

>>96866354
Nah, people can't even reach an agreement on how to fix 2.0 rules. There might be small groups sticking to 2.0 each with their own houserules, but it isn't gonna be a large unified movement.

>>96866372
Because GW is a profit driven company that, like it or not, has at least some idea of what changes will do to their bottom line, and FSM/Femstodes pandering are a known profit black hole
GW is still at fault for going through with it, but they would likely prefer sticking to the status quo until the line no longer goes up as much

>>96866391
>Nah, people can't even reach an agreement on how to fix 2.0 rules
Nah most people can agree to the major points of how to fix 2.0. its the nitty griddy stuff people get pedantic over. For example, I would be very surprised if there were a large amount of people that would not agree to some form of these charges to 2.0 over all to fix 90% of the issues of 2.0
>Heavy weapons can only snap shoot in return, overwatch, or intercept unless they have something to let them move and shoot heavy weapons
>A unit can only react once a turn not once a phase
>Go back to 1.0 weapon skill chart
>Brutal damage is applied after the failed save not before
>Drop sunder from Las canons
That would fix so many issues of 2.0 off the riff, at which point you just have to hammer our the more granular.
Personal things i would like to see in 2.0 as well would be
>3.0 blast rules
>3.0 vehicle rules/a rework of the vehicle damage table so tanks dont just pop the second anything looks at them funny.

>>96866415
>>Heavy weapons can only snap shoot in return, overwatch, or intercept unless they have something to let them move and shoot heavy weapons
>DG immediately become tier 0

>>96866372
GW certainly wouldn't be paying Adrian Tchaikovsky to write books if they weren't okay with the wokest shit imaginable.

>>96866427
>The legion that favors HSS is good with HSS
weird that it would work that way, but also it would not be as horrible as you think because again, you would be limited to one reaction per turn. Meaning you just need to devote fire power to each HSS to deal with them since they wont be able to intercept, return fire, and then overwatch a single unit.

>>96866415
>people agree how to fix 2.0!
>look for "krak grenades" or "heart of the legion"
>no mention
As I said, brain damaged retards

>>96866415
>Use this rule from 3.0
>Also this one
>And also this one
Just go play 3.0 at that point LMFAO

>>96866475
those fall under the 'granularity issues'
HotL and Krak Grenades were not the things breaking 2.0.
2.0 was being broken by TH, a fucked WS chart, the abuse of reactions, and the retardation of putting sunder on LC. There is a reason why 99% of peoples armies were just spamming WS5 TH and las canons. They were the problem children that were the biggest issues of 2.0
>>96866487
>Recognizing that 2 things in 3.0 some how means i want to play 3.0
No, i recognize the 3.0 fixed blast weapons specifically small blast as small blast has been an issue since its a relic of the past age when teh game was played with majority 25mm bases.
in 2.0 and 1.0 rules the issue with Small blast was that on a WS4 dude statistically you would miss the intended target more then you would hit it, 3.0 they fixed it and made dealing with balsts was faster and just better.
3.0 vehicles i like just becuase they made them not instant pop, that said i would rather them just fix the vehicle damage chart of 2.0 which again, is another relic of the past.

>>96866487
You can like some things an edition does but not the overall picture.

>>96866415
>>96866503
>Doesn't mention the main issue of 2.0 at all
Spotted the FotA abuser

>>96860969
Fuck them cunts. They were cancer for 3 years.

>>96866541
>FotA
Ok you know what, thats fair, i forgot to include that one, but that's because my group off the bat limited dreads to 1 per 1000
I would say to fix that make it so dreads are ws/bs4 but gain +1 WS or BS if they have Duel melee or duel ranged weapons
Boxnaughts would remain ws/bs4 no matter what.

>>96858035
Overall I am happy with it. The only problem is that Deathsworn have lost access to WS +1 and can't have speaker of the dead/caster of runes attached anymore>>96857994

>>96860957
>im gonna let him deep strike everything turn one as in old rules and we go from there
Run them as dreadclaws, problem solved

>>96858035
>DA
I would say slightly dissatisfied, more neutral if anything.
We got nice detachment spam but i really wish we would have retained the ability to buy wing upgrades for a unit something like 10 points a squad, +5 if its an fast attack, Heavy transport or tank, +10 if its an elite, retinue, or heavy assault.

>>96866198
That’s different than the coomer shit people were claiming

>>96858035
>UM
contender for the best trait in the game if you actually want to compete, also contender for the most boring trait in the game
Perfectly UM flavored, if you ask me

>>96866234
Totally not a scam. They’re only sending out uncured resin, and it’s not like the kickstarter totals in the first few days totally looked fake with $2-3k spent per donor. No it’s totally organic

>>96866335
>watching my thunder warriors fail their leadership check and they just start tearing each other apart while my teammates truck-towed psionic blob of hateflesh turns my commander into a perfect cube

>>96866632
My favorite fuckup thus far is how their STLs weren't made with drainage ports so some of the models just have a tendency to explode while curing

>>96866034
Always remind them that thanks to their efforts there's a non-zero chance that a femstodes was raped in every hole (plus a few new ones) by daemons during the Siege.

>>96866335
And custodesfags get another system they don't need to buy new models for.

>>96866669
Yep lmao. Let’s also not ignore that their new plastic kit has none of the wargear for that unit and is somehow priced worse than gw

>>96866439
...what?

Evens I paint a Tank
Odds I paint a Terminator
0 I paint a Contemptor

>>96866809
You don't even own models, what you mean paint something

>>96866745
The somehow is easy: their business didnt exist at all prior to the kickstarter, there are no established business relationships and they don't own the tooling for making products. The product pricing reflects both the desire to make a profit and also the need to recoup setup costs. The reason the equipment is fucked is because "game?", trench crusade wasn't conceived a wargaming product by people interested wargames.

So you get bad product and high price.

>>96866839
On the contrary, I have both Cataphractii and Saturnine to pick from. I'll even let (You) choose.

Despoiler Squad 1 of the Solar Angels, 237th Company, "the Seventh Sons"

>>96866848
Not that anon, but lets see you try your hand at the Saturnine first.

>>96866848
Lets see those saturnine termies painted, could use some motivation to start painting mine.

Wish FW had gone to autistic details about legion colour schemes like they did with IG in the old IA books.

>>96861003
A tank company can (and should) still include mechanized infantry and techmarines/forge lords.

"waaaa I cant run nothing but 25 predators waaaa" is not a complaint that has merit to it.

>>96859002
Idk anon, it seems disingenuous to claim that plasma is good because, say, Aetherfire autowounds at AP2 on a hit roll of 5

>>96867485
Can you guys explain mechanized infantry? Is it essentially a few squads protecting and being protected by vehicles?

>>96867521
Its just guys in rhinos (or other transports). Marines, just by default, field a lot of mechanized infantry.

>>96867504
So, aetherfire is good, predator plasma is good, dreadnought plasma is good, mhara gal plasma is good, deredeo plasma is good, plasma cannons are good, plasma guns are good, biker plasmas are good. But its not representative because what, saturnine plasmas arent very powerful?

>>96867542
Saturnine dreadnought plasma is nasty too. Barrage 1 large blasts are not okay, don't even need LOS or a siege breaker to blast tactical squads into oblivion.

>>96867562
The sicaran plasma is also pretty decent.

Plasma isnt bad, its just not "AP shooting" any more and therefore feels bad to use.

>>96867485
He could model them all as techmarines and adepts using stuff like the rapier crew bits and, say, MkII and III bodies with IH helmets (appropriately techy). Ruleswise they might just be tactical marines or despoilers, but modelwise they'd just be logistical crews in engineering vehicles. Or make them into command vehicles. Plenty of officers known for their tank stuff actually conducted their operations from various armoured cars, rather than from a tank.

>>96867521
>Mechanized infantry are infantry units equipped with armored personnel carriers (APCs) or infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) for transport and combat
>mechanized infantry is distinguished from motorized infantry in that its vehicles provide a degree of armor protection and armament for use in combat, whereas motorized infantry are provided with "soft-skinned" wheeled vehicles for transportation only.
>Much of the application of armoured warfare depends on the use of tanks and related vehicles used by other supporting arms such as infantry fighting vehicles, self-propelled artillery, and other combat vehicles, as well as mounted combat engineers and other support units.

>>96867597
So basically "its motorized infantry if its in a rhino, its mechanized infantry if the rhino has a pintle mounted multi-melta"

>>96867542
Plasma guns are not good, they struggle to kill tactical squads. Idk what you're on about saturnine plasma not being good, every time my buddy's saturnine blob shoots it deletes whatever it looks at, and they killed a praetor and his command squad on fucking overwatch

>>96867616
No, because rhinos are APCs.

>>96867622
>Plasma guns are not good
They are literally mathematically superior to plasma last edition most of the time.

>>96866372
Because too many faggots in this community bend over and take it up the ass from daddy GW. They excuse anything they do because their identity is so wrapped up in GW shit

>>96867656
>most of the time.
100% better 60% of the time fuck yeah.

>>96867656
Well I guess they sucked last edition too because they're fuckin dog shit this edition

>>96866415
Reacting only once a phase means you don't need the stipulation on Heavy weapons.
The 2.0 WS chart is fine.
2.0 needs new vehicle rules.
No more talons of dreads. Contemptors on WS/BS 4, Levis keep WS 5, Dereditos keep BS 5.
There edition is fixed if you include the brutal change as well

>>96867753
>The 2.0 WS chart is fine.
2.0 chart is fucking aweful, it makes ws5 way to fucking oppressive.
WS5 should have a bonus to hit, but not a negative to be hit as well.
As for dreads i mentioned our group fixed this with 1 per 1k but to fix it over all, all dreads should get WS/BS4 but then go up to WS5 or BS5 if they have duel melee or duel guns.
Box naughts should always be BS/WS4 so they dont just become the default better option.

As for the restrictions to heavy weapons, i would at the very least say they cant intercept at full BS with heavy weapons.
Really though that comes down to deep strikes needs to be broken up into 2 types of deep striking.
Deep strike as we currently know it, and a teleport strike, with teleport strike making it so you can only snap shot with heavy weapons. Because im sorry but if out of no where terminators show up in a flash of light and thunder, you should not be able to swing a heavy weapons around and fire full BS, but thats just like my opinion on it.

BUUUUUUT either way my original point still stands, 2.0 is fairly easy to fix the biggest issues with it, because most everyone can aggree on what those issues are
>Dreads
>WS
>Reactions
>Brutal
>Sunder on LC
Fix those who ever you like and you fix 90% of the edition.

>>96867622
>and they killed a praetor and his command squad on fucking overwatch
That sounds improbable? But maybe im underestimating the things.

>>96867928
It was six of them and they had dual plasma bombards

I don't want to stir shit but for a new player is it better to get into 3.0 or 2.0?

>>96867965
3.0. All current kits are intended for it.

>>96867965
What does your local community play? Probably 3.0, sadly.

>>96867958
So what, best case 12 shots? hitting what, 3 dudes each if it hits? breaching 5+ if you cook the things?

I mean its possible but wiping out a whole unit of 2+ dudes sounds unlikely. Maybe im underestimating how many hits small blasts can get.

>>96867965
3.0. You have multiple entire armies in 2.0 that can only win if you cheese the shit out of the game or have God on your side. The absolute worst armies in 3.0 don’t make it into the top 5 worst in 2.0. God help your soul if you even attempt to interact with 2.0 shattered legion. If you don’t like 3.0 pirate the 1.0 books and play that

>>96867965
3.0, its not perfect but its a lot better balanced than 2.0.

Theres still winners and losers, better and worse units, armies and strategies, but its nowhere near 2.0 levels, you can do what you want without stepping on a proverbial landmine and the listbuilding does give you more freedom.

>>96866288
big agree. unification would be way more interesting than 15 books about gulliman being a mary sue (shocker, I know)

I hope the FAQ addresses units charging stuff they cant possibly reach (e.g due to heavy limiting the set up move) just so they get to do volley fire

its a bit silly you can just get an extra round of shooting on a unit for the cost of....possibly getting stunned

>>96868027
The guys came out of a land raider all bunched up, I think he was getting like 5 or so hits every blast.

>>96868078
Yea, I guess that could do it. Still feels pretty lucky

>>96868084
To be fair the guy is notorious for his ability to roll 5+s in statistically improbable amounts

>>96868027
>Maybe im underestimating how many hits small blasts can get.
You 100% are. People on /hhg/ have this delusion that everybody always spreads out their models the perfect 2" unit coherency distance, but that is a far cry from the reality. Situations during an actual game are almost never perfect, there might just not be enough room, and there are other game mechanics like pile-in during combat that make your dudes bunch up.
Have played a 10 man plasma cannon HSS, and it is scary how often they've gotten 40 or more hits. And this was during 2.0 where blasts were waaay less accurate than they are now.

>>96868061
It's only snap shots with weapons that have the Assault trait (mostly pistols)
It really is not that big of a deal.

>>96868084
As it turns out not every instance of playing this game is perfectly optimized or statistical or competative

>>96868209
Forgot image

>>96868054
unless you want deepstriking / drop pods, or flanking, or footslogging, or light tanks, or daemons or melee dreadnoughts, or melee troopers (non-elites), or to use meltas/lascannons/missilelaunchers/heavybolter troopers.

You can do practically anything as long as it's nothing but rhino/landraider dumping elite troops, jetpacker elite troops or kratos-spam mixed with 3-5 blobs of tacticals sitting on circles on the ground.

It's a complete joke of an edition. The problems with 2 were just dreadnoughts/lascannons needing a point cost increase , which takes 10 seconds to do and doesn't require ruining the entire rest of the game the way the changes in HH3 did.

>>96868356
This pisses me off the most. There is no harm I can see with mass deepstriking pods and termites. If the scoring is the issue then obviously that whole new way of collecting VPs needs to be reconsidered in favor of flavor. It’s such bullshit.

>>96868356
>or melee troopers (non-elites)
In 2.0? Dream the fuck on.

>deep striking
Is fine, more suited to ranged units now.

>flanking
Also fine
>footslogging
Doable, the alternatives just became more viable
>light tanks
Are all very well costed. Predators start at 100pts and no longer explode the second anything looks at them. Light tanks are finally worth using.

>melee dreads
Are fine, not as good as in 2e but they were broken in 2e.

>HSS
Are entirely usable, they just arent the one stop solution to every ranged problem in the game.

>>96868356
This is the most nogames post of the threat. Complaining about heavy bolter hss not being used, implying that somehow they were in 2.0? Give me a break. Fucking clown.

>>96868393
NTA, but I use Iron Havocs with Shrapnel Bolters for fun because I like cool things.

>>96868442
Based.

>>96868356
Heavy Bolter HSS are better than ever, because factions beyond just space marines are now finally viable so AP4 actually matters.

>>96867833

Well, you have to do all that and then fundamentally rework every faction that isn't Legiones Astartes because they're all genuinely awful to play, so I'll stick with my 3e Mechanicum, thanks. The Arcana bullshit and relative shortage of Magos options might be mildly annoying but I finally have a unit roster that isn't just the word SECUTOR written in bold.

>>96868356
This must be the best bait I've seen in HHG

>>96867616
the rhino has armor and is capable of handling stuff above small arms fire.
the marines would be motorized infantry if they were riding in, say, a really big car.

>>96867833
>Fix those who ever you like and you fix 90% of the edition.
Except for unit balance inside armies, balance between factions and balance between armies. But asides from that yea you will have addressed most of the issues (except for vehicle durability, deep strike, flyers and challenge chumping, oh and AA tanking)

>>96868511
>DS
Honestly this is only an issue because of intercept. You have to go balls deep on DS.
WHich IMO, just bring DS back to old school deep strike and make it so you cant charge outta a deep strike UNLESS you have a warmonger in the unit, THEN it could charge.
>Vehicles
Honestly i personally like the vehicle rules in 3.0 tanks actually feel like tanks, they just would need a point adjustment to work in 2.0
>Flyers
They dont belong in the game, sorry but anything that flies that is not just a hovering gunship does not belong on a 28mm scale game, board is to small, they have never worked properly in the game ever.
The only way you could make it work is if you just buy flyer strikes, like how you could in 4th ed 40k with orbital strikes for GK. Oh im going to buy for 20 points a Xiphon intercept run, so i can shoot down enemy gun ships, or a thunderbolt bombing run to drop bombs here.
Flyers just dont belong on the table they dont work. If you play Ligma and get to see how they actually should work you realize the table is to small in HH for them.
>Challenge
Get rid of it, have it exist only for primarchs,
Challenges have always been a stupid fucking system, and it makes it so the only way you ever wanna kit your characters is to be good at killing other characters, that gay as fuck, let me kit characters how i think they should be kitted not to min max challenges.
Hero hammer is for fags.

Hot take: The lasrifle should be 2 shots base with Heavy (FP). Only way Lasrifle Sections will be Able to compete with tacticals.

>>96868559
>compete with tacticals.
anon thats the point, they are not meant to.

Are there any rumors about the setting moving towards the scouring?

>>96868577
Just wild speculation but IMO i highly think thats going to happen in perhaps another edition or so.
I think 4th ed hh is going to be Siege of Terra, and 5th ed is going to be scouring.

It makes perfect sense from a marketing stand point.
HH will become to 40k what TOW is to AoS. A way to tap into both older and younger markets.

>>96868559
Anon, they aren't meant to. What is suppose to happen is the tacticals shoot at the lasrifle section, to then immediately get pounded into dust by retaliatory artillery fire.

>>96868559
>4.5 pts per model
>compete with tacticals

>>96868568
2 riflemen cost 10 points, and therefore should have the same value as 1 tactical marine, however the 2 riflemen are outclassed by the single tactical in every metric. Durability, damage, even ability to hold an objective.

>>96868550
>Honestly this is only an issue because of intercept
Intercept exists because otherwise "whoops guess I dropped a whole army into melee with you on my turn, better luck next time" is a thing. Removing one makes the other worse.

>>96868608
which is why i said go back to old school deep strike where you had to bring each unit on as a roll to see if they make it in not just a single one drop of everything, and then you cant charge outta deep strike either.

I have LONG held that being able to charge outta deep strike is one of the worst things GW added to the game because of how asininely powerful it is. It was one of the worst things they did in 8th ed and kept it going since.

>>96868615
Unless of course you pay for a warmonger, that much i think should let you charge outta deep strike, but also terminators get deep strike back as well or at least can buy it as an upgrade from any character in terminator armor.

>>96868605
>>96868559

Thats not quite how this works. Lasrifle sections and tacticals are not in the same book, they are not competing with each other because you dont have the option of "solar aux troopers" or "tacticals".

Solar Aux infantry is, in a fight, weaker than marine infantry. They wont be winning gunfights. They are however - for the cost - more durable and harder to deal with in a convenient way. Theyre a different unit in a different army that does different things.

Ogryn buttfuck terminators for the cost, so what? theyre not competing with each other, theyre not available alongside each other. Armies have different strengths, weaknesses and unit roles.

>>96868709
Thats the thing with "competition between units", you cant compare 1:1 between different armies because those comparisons dont exist in a vacuum.

Whats that? Dark Furies are more cost effective than Night Raptors in a fight? Should raptors be buffed to be on par with them? Or do raptors exist in a legion with a different set of traits, synergies and options than furies? Is it a problem that Admech or Custodes characters are a cut above? Do praetors need a buff?

>>96868732
Yes.

>>96868709
>Ogryn buttfuck terminators for the cost
Do they? They have a fuckton of wounds, but their saves suck and they're sitting there at 38ppm swinging WS3 power mauls around, which is pretty lame.

>>96868753
>Do they?
Yea, Ogryn are fucking scary.

Oh, maybe I should clarify, I meant charonites (and by extention ruinstorm brutes). Theyre like 40ppm or something, 4w, have a FNP and are throwing out damage 2 attacks. Really really nasty combat unit thats also really good against a lot of what you would normally fire at terminators or other elite combat units.

>>96868762

Oh, I thought you meant the Militia ogryns, yeah the Charonites will hellmurder people. They're basically Prime Ursarax, except instead of being very fast and cheap they get +1W and hit at D2 so they can actually trouble terminators.

>>96868218
MORE AT RIGHT NOW

>>96868709
Anon I hate to tell you but it's the easiest it ever has been to cherry pick the best units for each role

That time of year.

Wrapped up some objective markets I've had in the queue for months

>>96869192
This is vile. never post in this thread again, nigger.

>>96869294
>>96869294
>>96869294

>>96865563
its description says it lacks the more advanced systems other dreadnought paterns have. And the doredeo is mentioned to have an extensive system of targeting/tracking etc. Both dreadnoughts, the "we did it on the fast" option and the super high tech range weapon platform have the same BS.

>>96866354
maybe somewhere. But in general people are reluctant to play rules that will never get updated. And those that don't like 3ed will have to adapt by rebuying or changing army, or accept that they are not going to have fun playing the game.

>>96866383
Really. 3.0 is worse then 2.0 based on terrain and LoS alone. The fact it dick punched a ton of ways to play is just a bonus.
how many steps does the movment have 14? That is the superior thing to 2.0?

>>96867485
You are mixing up a mechanized infantry unit with a tank company. You know how many infantry units my tank Regiment had in 1999? Exactly 0. Our division technicaly should have had a motorised infantry regiment for our two tank regiments, but those were never around us. I don't want to play a mechanised infantry regiment. I want to play a strickt tank regiment aka 31 tank, counting command vehicles.

>>96867965
Depends on your local community

>>96868605
preach